In today's episode, Dr. Armin Feldman returns to update us on creating a medical legal consulting business, and new resources for learning how to do so. He first appeared as a guest on Episode 227, which was released a year ago. 

Dr. Feldmman attended the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center for his psychiatric residency after graduating from the University of Wisconsin Medical School. For more than 20 years he practiced psychiatry and ran outpatient head injury rehabilitation centers around the nation.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Medical Legal Consulting Business vs. Expert Witness Consulting

Dr. Feldman started formal consulting of this nature 15 years ago. His unique pre-litigation/pre-trial consulting aids attorneys in managing the medical elements of cases, raising case value, and saving time.

By supporting medical opinions with documentation from medical literature, he assists attorneys in helping their clients negotiate and settle legal disputes. In most cases, this enables patients to obtain necessary medical care.

Launching a Medical Legal Consulting Business

You need two skill sets to successfully pursue this career.

First, you must be able to research the literature regarding evidence-based medical care and explain your medical knowledge and experience to others. Second, you will need the business skills necessary to launch and sustain a long-term medical consulting firm.

During our interview, Armin describes how to obtain those skills.

Additional Resource – Dr. Feldman's Podcast

Armin and a former student, Dr. Michael Bummer, also produce Physicians Helping Attorneys (Helping Patients) a podcast that helps attorneys understand this new medical forensic field. It is also a great place for physicians who are interested in studying this type of work to learn more about it.

Dr. Feldman's Advice

If you love medicine and you want to… help people, injured people that really need this help… this is something you should consider.

Summary

In today's interview, Dr. Feldman helped us to understand this burgeoning new medical field.

He also describes his new online course, Start Doing Medical/Legal Consulting, which opens later this month. In it, you will learn how to start your own medical legal consulting business. The 16-video course is divided into 4 modules, each lasting two weeks, with a live Q&A with Dr. Feldman following each module.

If you want to begin this lucrative nonclinical full- or part-time consulting business, learn more by clicking this link. (This is NOT an affiliate link.)

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Feldman's Course
• Physicians Helping Attorneys (Helping Patients) Podcast
• How to Do a New Kind of Medical Legal Consulting as a Part Time Gig – 227
• NewScr!pt

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 281

Why You Must Consider Starting a Medical Legal Consulting Businesses

- Interview with Dr. Armin Feldman

John: About exactly a year ago, I had today's guest on my podcast for the first time, and I was really interested and enthralled by the conversation because what he discussed was something I had never really been aware had existed. And since that time, he's been doing some new things, he's been increasing the availability to teaching other physicians to do what he's done. So, I want to welcome back Dr. Armin Feldman. Thanks for being here today.

Dr. Armin Feldman: It's a pleasure, John. It's always good to see you and it's always fun to be on your podcast. Instead of just listening, I actually get to do one.

John: Yes, I always find it fun to be a guest on another podcast. It's just like a normal conversation, just getting to know somebody. So, it's a lot of fun. You were on last time, about a year ago, and we were talking about this career that you have had for the last 15 or more years and a career teaching others to do it. So just tell us what that is and then you can segue a little bit into what's kind of new with what you've been doing.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Okay, great. As you know I do medical legal consulting. And what that really means is I work as a medical consultant in legal cases. I don't work as a medical expert. I'm working pre-trial, pre-litigation on those approximately nine out of 10 cases that these attorneys negotiate and settle. So, we work as medical legal consultants on the strategic development of medical issues in legal cases. And we're primarily working with personal injury and worker's compensation attorneys who work on the claimant side.

Now, although I'll say that any physician in any specialty can learn how to do this work. As you know, I owned outpatient head injury rehabilitation clinics around the country. I was fortunate enough to sell them. Thinking about what I wanted to do next. This was 15 years ago. I had testified as an expert witness more times than I want to remember, and I was thinking about what to do next, I thought maybe I could consult attorneys on any kind of medical question that comes up in a case. And I guess now the rest is history.

I've done over 3,000 cases. 13 years ago, I started training other physicians how to do this kind of work. And I've now through my coaching program, my conferences, my online training, I've now trained a little over 1,600 physicians around the country. We always work on the side of what I call the little guy going up against the insurance companies. These are injured people, injured no fault of their own, who then need to acquire legal counsel to get the appropriate damages and more importantly, from our point of view, to get the medical care that they really need. And this kind of consulting, really, in a formalized way was not done until I started doing this years ago.

John: Okay. That is definitely a different kind of animal from the usual expert witness consulting. And so, I want to tell you the way I look at it, some of the differences between this medical legal consulting and expert witness. And you can tell me if I'm right or you can add to it. So, let's do that. The expert witness generally is going to be involved in either a chart review, case review, and or a deposition rarely, and then even less rarely, testifying in court. And from my understanding the second two of those never happen in medical legal consulting that you do. Is that correct?

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yes, that's right. Another big difference is obviously if you're working as a medical expert in a legal case, you're working in your specific field. As a medical legal consultant, you're a generalist. You're answering any kind of medical question that comes up in a case. And our legal system allows and actually encourages this. A physician can answer medical questions in legal cases. And what makes what we do viable in many ways, is not only are these cases negotiated and settled, but we always back up our medical opinions with evidence from the medical literature.

In fact, when I first started doing this, my reports would go over to opposing counsel and the opposing counsel would call the attorney that hired me and say, "Why should I pay any attention to this? Dr. Feldman isn't an expert in, whatever, rotator cuff injuries." And the attorney would say, "Well, Dr. Feldman acts as a medical consultant for me in my cases, and if we can't get this negotiated and settled and you forced me to take it to trial, when I hire my retained orthopedic specialist, they're going to say exactly what Dr. Feldman said in his report. In fact, Dr. Feldman is relying on the same medical literature that my medical expert will rely on."

John: Yes. Very interesting. So, let me distinguish another thing here. Medical experts generally are still in active practice, not a hundred percent, but most of them are. And it's usually sort of expected. In this situation, do most of the people doing this, the physicians doing what you do, are still in practice? Still in practice, not in practice. Some are, some aren't. What's that like?

Dr. Armin Feldman: Some are, some aren't. But I'll tell you the majority are. Some physicians do this full-time. Some do it in lieu of retiring, but the vast majority of physicians do it as a part-time gig and they continue to do clinical work, and then they add this piece of nonclinical work to what they're doing. So, most of them are practicing.

John: Okay, good.

Dr. Armin Feldman: It makes a nice transition too for people that want to transition to nonclinical medicine. You can do it on a part-time basis. What I always say is you really need to have a minimum of about eight hours a week in order to do this justice and make it fly. And then from there, you can do it as many hours a week as you see fit and as you enjoy it and build up your medical legal consulting business.

John: Now, it seems that for the physicians that I know that do expert witness consulting, the rate of pay is significantly above their usual clinical pay unless there's some very subspecialized thing. A lot of them, when they do the expert witness, they will like you said, do that part-time too, work fewer hours, generate enough that they can cut back on their clinical. Would you say the same is true of this aspect?

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yes.

John: Okay.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Both things are true. Yes. The remuneration is handsome, and it does allow you to cut back on your clinical work.

John: Okay. Now I know that you have been teaching this and coaching people and so forth. I'm kind of interested in maybe a high-level view of what it would take for a physician to do this. What kind of training, what do they need to learn to do this? You can obviously get into much detail, but what kind of things are important in doing this kind of career?

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yes. I think for me and for the physicians that do this, this is what makes it interesting is that there are really two skill sets that you need to learn. One, of course, is you need to learn the medicine that you need to know to do this. Now you can do that as on the job without training. And when I say the medicine, you also need to understand how the legal system works, how law offices work, what things to do, what things to watch out for.

And I often tell physicians that are in my coaching program, my training program, almost everything that I teach is based on mistakes that I made over the years that you won't have to make. That's part one. And part two is you have to learn how to successfully not only start up, but successfully run a long term medical legal consulting business.

And the training is really on both of those things. So how do you go from zero, no business to up and running with your medical legal consulting business? How do you market that business? Meaning how do you get your attorney clients, how do you keep them long term? How do you operate your medical legal consulting business on a daily basis? That kind of thing. And then on the other side, how do you write the reports? What goes into the reports? What are the services that you're going to offer? Medical service, medical consultation services you're going to offer, and so forth.

John: Yeah, there's a lot of nitty gritty in there. I think I gathered from our last conversation and from listening to your podcast, which you can mention here in a minute. As a physician, we can understand what goes into a particular case. Doing this, you would've to research and oftentimes share that with the attorney you're working with. But like you said, it's something that each case is a little different. And so, I think the training that you've done in the coaching shows people how to do that too, how to collect that and put it together for the attorney.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yes, yes. There are actually 15, 16, 17 different types of services that I've developed for attorneys over the years. And so, every case is a little different. Every kind of service you're going to offer is different. So, for example, one attorney may want you to put together a comprehensive medical summary report that talks about the entire case, the medical damages in the case, the future medicals that are going to be needed and so forth that they'll submit with a settlement demand, a letter.

Another attorney may want you to do liaison with a treating doctor. Let's say the person develops severe migraine headaches after being rear-ended in the accident. And you get to the medical records and they had some headaches five years ago. And so, you might need to talk with the injured person's PCP or gynecologist or whatever, and say, "Hey, that headache that you treated them for five years ago, is that really a preexisting condition? Was that something different than what, well, I would call them a client, but their patient is experiencing now?

John: Okay.

Dr. Armin Feldman: A client of the attorney. There are a wide variety of services that you can provide as a medical legal consultant. That will depend on what the attorney wants, what the case indicates, and so forth. You're speaking about medical expert work. One thing that makes it different is our average case takes maybe somewhere between five and 12 hours. It's not as involved as being a medical expert. I would say probably maybe 80%, 85% of the time you're going to be writing a report. And that report, it's not behind the scenes. They'll be seen by insurance adjusters. They'll certainly be seen by opposing counsel in every case. They're often seen by judges treating doctors, IME doctors and others.

John: Very good. You are kind of really filling an important niche, an important step in this process. And like you said, most of the time they don't go to any kind of trial which most attorneys try to settle, almost every case at least in my recollection. One of the things I want to mention or ask you earlier, because you're so passionate about this, you spend so much time developing this, it's like a new specialty. And so, why do you love this so much? Why do you like this? You seem very enthusiastic.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yes. Well, that's a good question. And I think the absolute bottom line on that is, I think as physicians, one of the big reasons we all get into doing this is we want to help people. And this is a way that you can really, really help injure people in a way that they never had helped like this before in a nonclinical setting. And you get to see the tangible results of that help. The other thing is, if you love medicine, when you were in medical school, if you were enthused about it and you love medicine. This is a way to get involved in all kinds of various aspects of medicine and learn. Of course, the attorneys are paying you to do your research, but learn about all kinds of very interesting things.

Now, obviously, I'm in no position to do any orthopedic or neurosurgery, but I would put my knowledge base of spine injuries, rotator cuff injuries, complex regional pain syndrome, you name it, up against anybody because this is what I do day in and day out. I learn about various things that have come up in accidents and then what are the conditions? How do you treat them and stay up to date on all of the medicine?

I'll tell you a very quick story. I was talking to an attorney client last week and he said, "Hey, I have a case in which a woman developed a very bad hiatal hernia and esophageal reflux after being reared. She had two surgeries. She still can't swallow properly. Is that accident related?" And I said, "Well you don't know this, but I've done over 3,000 cases. Nobody has asked me that before." And so, I said, "I don't know if that's the case or not, but I'll go do some research for you."

I did that research, and sure enough it's well documented in the medical literature that trauma, and sometimes in some of these articles specifically, auto accident trauma can cause... I thought it would have to do with physical wrenching, but actually has more to do with internal pressure that's developed in the abdomen and pushes on the diaphragm and tears it.

And so, I was able to go back to this attorney and say, "Hey, yeah, you got a case here. Let me do some more research on this and write it up." And I was kind of thrilled because I learned something new, that physical trauma like this could actually cause these kinds of problems. And that was a damage in the case that this poor woman needed to be compensated for and get treatment for.

John: I bet even though your family and other friends know that you're maybe not practicing, I bet they still come to you with all the medical questions.

Dr. Armin Feldman: My sister-in-law flew in from Minneapolis for the annual Christmas cookie baking experience here in our house with my wife and her other sister who lives in Boulder. And she showed me, she twisted her ankle before she came. She asked me to take a look at her ankle. And I had some suggestions for her.

John: Of course, you did. Yeah. Excellent. All right, now I want to learn more about how we can learn more from you in various ways. And let's talk about the podcast for a minute. I believe that was developed really for attorneys, perhaps, but I think it can be useful to anyone who's thinking about doing this kind of work.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yes. I developed this podcast with one of my former students who is Dr. Michael Bummer in Pittsburgh. He is just going gangbusters. I'm doing medical legal consulting, and he's a smart and awfully nice guy. We teamed up and we're doing this podcast. It's called Physicians Helping Attorneys Helping People. The URL is physicianshelpingattorneys.com or any place where you listen to podcasts. But it was initially intended for attorneys so they could understand this better because like you said, it's a new field. But what I've learned is that there are a number of physicians that actually also tune in to the podcast and as you suggested, John, particularly physicians that might be interested in learning to do this kind of work.

John: Yes. The podcast, it's not been out all that long, but I had at least a dozen episodes that I listened to while I was on a recent trip. Yeah, it really helped clarify for me really what you do. And it was nice hearing the cases that you described in the podcast because it just makes it more real. If there's someone listening, and again, my audience typically are physicians thinking about various nonclinical careers or pseudo clinical careers, part-time side gigs and all that. So, this definitely fits into that. And just listening to the podcast will give you a much better understanding of what we're talking about in this short interview today.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Great.

John: Yes. But now you also have an even more direct way of helping us learn how to do this. I know you've been sort of coaching and teaching for a long time. Tell us what's new in that venue.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Right. Yes, that's right. I do have a training program, coaching program that physicians have been participating in for years. Last year I started a new online course, and this is really a crash course in how to do medical legal consulting. It's all online, do it at your own pace. And the next run of this course is coming up on January 30th, 2023.

The course is 16 videos. The course is broken into four modules of two weeks each. So, only four videos every two weeks. It's really tailored for a physician schedule. You can certainly watch four videos in two weeks. And the associated downloadable materials for each topic is there for you.

And then at the end of each two-week module, I do a live Q&A where everyone participating in the online course can save up their questions over those two weeks and I'll answer questions for an hour. The course is worth 15 category one CMEs.

John: That helps.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yeah, it does help. I'm happy to say that the first two rounds of the online course were well received. I'm happy to say the technology actually worked. No problems there. And so, I'm expecting a nice turnout for run number three starting in January.

John: Well, I can't wait because I did sign up for the course.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yes, you did.

John: If you knew that or not. But I'm going to tell my listeners, look, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and I'm not an affiliate for this thing. I just think it's so interesting that I'm going to take the course and ask you a few questions. So, if anyone wants to join me, just let me know that you've joined and we'll be in it together.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Oh, that's just great. That's just great. When you're running an online course like that and it's on-demand videos, it's so nice to do a live Q&A because you actually get to interact with the physicians that are in the course, answer their questions and get to know who's actually taking the course.

John: Yeah, that's great. And I've got some courses online, but I'm currently not doing a live version of any of it, including a Q&A. That sounds like it's definitely a value and will help the students immensely.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yeah. In fact, one thing I say right at the beginning is when you finish this course, you will have all of the tools and all of the instructions that you need to go out and actually do this. It's not just a cursory introduction. It's, "Hey, here's how you do it."

John: Yeah. I think that people, professionals that have made a decision to change and to do some coursework or something, they really want to get into the details. They want to know "Do I have everything I needed? If I truly want to do this, I can do it." And so, I know other course creators that do the same thing, and it's always well received. So, I've got to hand it to you.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Good.

John: All right. Is there anything else you need us to know? We talked about the podcast, the course. Either any other information or just advice for us? You've talked to a lot of physicians who've done transition.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yeah. I think if you love medicine and you want to learn a lot about medicine, help people, injured people that really need this help, I don't want to sound too grandiose about this, but help the lawyers and help our legal system to some degree who are looking for some kind of nonclinical work, that you can sink your teeth into, and know that not only is it going to be helpful in terms of the income, but also helping people and something that's fun and you can enjoy, then this is something that you should consider.

John: I get a lot of people that are just early in the course of trying to find something new to do and they feel like "I've wasted my education or I'm not going to be helping people." But this is another really excellent example where "No, you are going to be using your education a lot." Reading these research papers, trying to figure out which ones really apply to this case, learning something new, because we're not all experts in every field, but we have that medical background and you're helping somebody. It's not so much that you're helping the attorney, it's the next level, which there's a patient behind that attorney that maybe has been unjustly denied certain services or treatment. Again, it's just a great thing to do and it keeps us still the mind going and using our medical skills.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yeah. Right, right. That case I mentioned earlier, her medical bill so far to date had been denied by her own insurance company. And that's why she had to hire the attorney. And now that attorney is going to help her to say, "Oh, no, no, this was accident related."

John: Excellent. Yeah. And I bet you had a real sense of accomplishment when you discovered that, in fact, that's a real thing.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yeah. Right. That's true. Yeah.

John: All right. Well, I really want to thank you again for being here, Armin. This has been fun. I'm going to get the word out to my listeners about this and we'll see what happens. But I hope all the best for the coming year with this iteration of your course, and I'm sure it gets better every year.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, John. You always ask such good questions too.

John: All right. That's because I'm really interested. So, thanks again and I'll be looking forward to seeing how things go with your course.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Great.

John: Bye-bye.

Dr. Armin Feldman: Bye.

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Many of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, or career counselor before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Why You Must Consider Starting a Medical Legal Consulting Business – 281 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today's episode, John invites Dr. Katrina Ubell back to discuss her business and new book How to Lose Weight for the Last Time: Brain-Based Solutions for Permanent Weight Loss.

She began her journey from practicing pediatrician to master-certified life coach while taking a break from practice. She found that she quickly connected with medical professionals struggling to lose weight. 

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Dr. Katrina Ubell's Journey

Dr. Ubell's battle with her own weight started in medical school, where physicians typically learn to “eat when you can, and sleep when you can.” Like many physicians struggling to maintain a healthy weight, she found that her clients were emotional eaters who consume food even when not hungry.

The approach she uses addresses feelings, thoughts, and beliefs differently, as often the root causes of our poor eating patterns.

Beginning with one-on-one coaching, Katrina developed her flagship program “Weight Loss for Doctors Only,” which has been very successful in helping members to achieve a harmonious relationship with food and the permanent weight loss they seek.

How to Lose Weight

Dr. Ubell shares the strategies for weight loss from her flagship program in her recently released book “How to Lose Weight for the Last Time.” The key, she says, is not to be found in unrealistic diets, unsustainable supplements, or demanding workout regimens, but to follow the brain-based strategy outlined in her book.

Dr. Katrina Ubell's Advice

 Once I understood how to asses and act upon my true physiological hunger, the weight started to come off…

Summary

You can find Dr. Ubell's book, and the audiobook version that she recorded, on her website at katrinaubellmd.com, and at major bookstores. After buying it, you can enter the order number on her website to gain access to a free 90-minute workshop called “Ensure Your Weight Loss Success.” 

You can also find information about her podcast “Weight Loss for Busy Physicians,” and several free downloadable resources on her website.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Katrina Ubell's Website
• How to Lose Weight for the Last Time: Brain-Based Solutions for Permanent Weight Loss
• First, Optimize Your Attitude – Interview with Dr. Katrina Ubell – 035
• How to Be an Author and Nonclinical Career Expert with Dr. Heidi Moawad – 063
• How to Build a Platform and Create Authority with Dr. David Geier – 049
• How to Become an Author, Consultant and Online Authority with Dr. Tom Davis – 047
• How Physicians Can Use Online Courses to Boost Income – 239
• How to Get Started on Your Nonclinical Online Business
• How to Select the Best Online Business Niche – 110
• NewScr!pt

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Coming soon.

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Many of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Inspiration from the Author of ‘How to Lose Weight for the Last Time’ – 279 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today's episode, listeners will complete the highlights from the training to land their first fabulous MSL job.

This is Part 2 of the excerpt from John's course, How to Secure a Career as a Medical Science Liaison. He developed this course as one of the first courses for his Nonclinical Career Academy.

The presentations will provide you with a solid grasp of what an MSL does. And, how to go about securing your first job as an MSL. Part 1 was presented last week, and these two together will complete the summary.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Final Highlights of this Course

The final part of How to Secure a Career as a Medical Science Liaison includes 4 lessons to secure your first fabulous job as an MSL:

1. Thoroughly understanding the job of an MSL
2. Preparing to apply for the job
3. Properly use a cover letter, resumé, and LinkedIn, and where to look
4. Putting it all together to land your first fabulous MSL job.

The full six-part course can be found at: https://nonclinicalphysicians.com/mslcourse.

Final Steps to Landing Your First Fabulous MSL Job

Join the MSL Society and access its resources. Download ebooks and handouts from the MSL Institute. And start looking at online job descriptions in more detail.

Summary

There are many pharmaceutical firms seeking clinicians to fill their Medical Science Liaison slots. Many of these positions are filled by physicians, pharmacists, physician assistants, and nurses who have never worked in the Pharma Industry before.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• How to Secure a Career as a Medical Science Liaison – The excerpt in these 2 episodes (276 & 277) provides an excellent plan for landing your first MSL job, but only represents about 15% of the material resented in the full course. By purchasing the course now, you will receive two 30-minute coaching sessions and admission to 3 monthly Nonclinical Mastermind meetings ($500 Value) to assist with your career transition.
• Medical Science Liaison Is Still a Fantastic Pharma Job – 261
• How to Network Effectively to Become an MSL – 089
• How to Secure Your First MSL Job – 066
• How to Optimize Your Career as an MSL with Dr. Linda Ho – 051
• How to Secure a Captivating Career as an MSL – 276
• NewScr!pt

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The post Complete the Journey to Your First Fabulous MSL Job – 277 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Today we introduce the 12-Month Roadmap to a New Career.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

12-Month Roadmap to a New Career

The Roadmap is divided into five phases. Each phase is used to perform specific duties that flow naturally over the 12-month timetable. And each phase has three to seven significant tasks that must be finished in that period. Oftentimes, they can be done concurrently.

Before getting started, there is a prerequisite. You must have already chosen two to three potential jobs to consider. This also assumes that the problem driving you away from traditional clinical practice cannot be solved by simply leaving your present department, switching to a different manager, or changing organizations.

In other words, you have already decided to leave traditional clinical practice.

What Happens in Month One?

The 1st month's steps include 4 tasks:

Revisit self-limiting beliefs and common myths that can slow your progress

Review self-limiting assumptions and common myths that might impede your progress. In order to move forward, you must overcome the self-limiting assumptions and widespread myths that emerge as we start to implement this life-changing event.

This topic was addressed in episode 252, “How to Kill the Myths About Alternative Jobs for Clinicians.” The most common misconceptions include these five:

• there are a limited number of jobs available;
• I'm not qualified for a nonclinical job, since all I know is medicine;
• my income will decrease greatly;
• I'm abandoning patients; and,
• my reputation and position will suffer.

All of these have been shown to be false.

Review job descriptions

Do NOT wait until you're actually ready to apply for a job to look at job postings on websites like Indeed and LinkedIn. At this stage, it is important to understand the requirements of the jobs, and the language used in those positions.

Find a mentor

Episode 208, “How Do I Choose the Best Coaches Mentors and Masterminds for Me?” addresses this issue. Find a mentor for each industry that you are considering.

A mentor is someone who looks out for your best interests and is not typically paid. They are very familiar with the job you are pursuing and can help you avoid mistakes and accelerate your job search. 

Join LinkedIn and create your initial profile

Complete your first profile right away. Updates can and will be made in the future. You don't necessarily want to tell your employer that you're seeking work if you're still employed. So, the initial version can be more general in scope.

And, by turning off notifications, when you start to post your interest in finding a new job, your current connections (including your employer) will NOT be notified.

Summary

The 12-Month Roadmap to a New Career is a model to teach how to make the transition from a practicing clinician to a nonclinical job. It helps to organize the steps into a logical sequence that is not overwhelming. In the model, during the first phase, there are 4 tasks to complete that will set the stage for a productive job search.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

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Links for Today's Episode:

• How to Kill the Myths about Alternative Jobs for Clinicians
• How Do I Choose the Best Coaches, Mentors and Masterminds for Me
• How to Become CMO in a Year – 052
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 269

Month One of the 12 Month Roadmap to a New Career

John: Welcome back to this week's show Nonclinical Nation. Today will be a slightly different type of episode. It's just me again, but this episode will be part of a series. The overarching theme of the series is this. The 12-month roadmap to a new career.

A couple of years ago, I put together a roadmap with all the steps that would take you from full-time clinical practice to becoming a chief medical officer of a hospital. And I structured it as a 12-month series of actions to take that would result in landing your first CMO job. On reflection, this roadmap can be generalized to cover the steps in landing any of dozens of nonclinical jobs, whether it's in pharma, consulting, insurance, or education, or in a health system.

The 12 months is also somewhat arbitrary. With effort, the process could be accomplished much quicker, but on the other hand, 12 months is a nice round number and it takes into account the need to give up to six months' notice that some employment contracts require. It might be 90 days, might be 120 days, or even six months to longer. That kind of fits in that 12-month timeframe.

Today, I'm not going to go through that entire roadmap, but I'm going to start with month one, and I'll be covering all four sub-goals in this important step at times referring to previous episodes in which we explored those topics in more detail. So, everything I've discussed, and I'm going to discuss today, really, I've discussed in other podcast episodes and sometimes in other videos and courses and so forth. But I'm going to put it all together in this series so that you can actually work along with the steps if you like.

Now, before we go any further though, let's thank our sponsor. The University of Tennessee offers the longest running and most highly respected physician only executive MBA in the country. It produced more than 700 graduates, and I've spoken with many of them.

The Haslam College of Business at the UT was ranked number one in the world by Economist Magazine as the most relevant executive MBA program. So, it's a very, very well-respected program. And unlike many others, this program only takes one year to complete. Since you'll complete a company project while working on your MBA, you'll demonstrate the value of the degree while you're still in the program.

Graduates have taken leadership positions at major healthcare organizations and have become entrepreneurs and business owners. So, if you want to acquire new business and management skills and advance your nonclinical career, then contact Dr. Kate Ashley's office by calling (865) 974-6526 or you can use our handy link at nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

All right, let's get started with today's content. I put together a list of steps that can be spread out over six to 18 months that can be used to pursue and land your first nonclinical job. It's funny because a lot of the steps are exactly the same no matter what kind of job you're looking for. It's really a career transition model I guess is what you would call it. A little bit different from maybe starting your own business but even there, there's a lot of overlap. And so, I'll put a version of that roadmap in the show notes and also in my email that I send out announcing the posting of this episode. And so, that'll be available to look at, obviously, for those listening on the podcast, you don't really have something you can look at while you're driving or working out or what have you. Anyway, in the past, I've shared that slide. It was called Roadmap - 12 Months to a New Career. But going forward, I think I'm going to change that to the 12 Month Roadmap to a New Career. That's how I referred to it for this series and probably in future podcast episodes or even courses on my academy.

As constructed for the 12-month version, it is split up into five major blocks of time during which certain tasks are completed. And each of those steps, we'll call them, includes three to seven major assignments or tasks that need to be completed during that timeframe. And usually, they can be completed concurrently. In other words, you can work on one and work on another, kind of going back and forth, because some of them you need to give some time anyway to take breaks. And of course, you might also be working your full-time job during this time.

Now, there is a pre-condition for starting this process. So, this process, these 12 steps or this roadmap, it doesn't go all the way back to the very, very beginning where you're just contemplating something and you haven't really thought much about it. So, this starts when you've already selected two to three potential jobs to consider. And this assumes as simply leaving your current department, maybe getting a new manager or leaving your current organization is not the answer to whatever issue is pushing you to leave traditional clinical practice. Whether you are interested in doing something new, something different or you're burnt out or you're miserable, or you've decided to just leave the high-stress situation that you're in.

As in any model or construct like this one, some of the design is arbitrary. However, those items generally need to be done early and are placed in steps one or two, while the end results such as attending an interview or considering an offer are logically placed in step five. Note that step six is accepting an offer and starting a new job. So, that's not really a separate step, but it's included in the slide that I use to describe this.

Anyway, with that background, let me dig into what I place in step one, which can easily be accomplished in a month in most cases. The four tasks that I'm putting in step one include number one is revisit self-loading beliefs and common myths that might slow your progress. Number two, review job descriptions. Number three, find a mentor. And number four, join LinkedIn and create your initial complete profile. Let's go through each of those quickly here.

Task number one within that is revisit self-limiting beliefs and common myths that slow your progress.For you to go from just contemplating a change to actually deciding to move forward, you must have already overcome to some extent the usual self-limiting beliefs and common myths that occur in us as we begin to take on this rather immense life-changing event.

But the thing is, even if you've come to the conclusion, you want to move forward, what we found, myself and other coaches and consultants, is that these lingering self-limiting beliefs and myths will slow you down because you keep bumping up against them. They'll keep you from moving forward. Now this was addressed quite a bit in some detail in episode 252 called How to Kill the Myths about Alternative Jobs for Clinicians. But let me talk about these two somewhat separate issues of self-limiting beliefs and common myths and we'll just kind of spend a couple minutes on that.

Self-limiting beliefs, I kind of categorize the things that people say in their internal conversations with themselves. Things like, "I'm not good enough. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't want to look stupid. I don't want to look foolish." There are all kinds of these sorts of self-limiting internal beliefs and conversations that we have that a lot of people have spoken about. And I think I had an interview with Dr. Maiysha Clairborne to talk about some of these.

Now, they're not to me the biggest issues because we were able to obviously overcome those when we decided to enter medical school, to excel in college, to choose a residency. And some of us went to some very competitive residencies and to persevere through three to five years of residency and fellowship or more if we did that. So, I'm not going to spend a lot of time on that, but you need to do some reflection and see if you really buy any of those things. Most physicians are relatively confident in their abilities. It's really the second part of these myths that hold us back because in a sense, they're logical, sort of arguments against moving forward. And so, I want to address the five most common myths. Again, I spoke about those in episode 252, and there'll be a link down in the show notes for this.

But the first myth is that there's a limited number of jobs available. Again, as I've discussed before, there are at least nine major industries that hire thousands of physicians. It's reflected in the fact that the jobs typically are things like physician advisor, medical director, and chief medical officer. Those are jobs that only physicians can do. Those are kept a big secret that is kept from us when we're in medical school and residency because most of our teachers don't want us to be siphoned off into those nonclinical jobs.

But the reality is that there are thousands and thousands of jobs out there just waiting for us, and on any given day, there are thousands that are open. You could find, I can guarantee you that if you start looking at job descriptions, which we'll talk about in a minute, you'll see thousands of them there. So that's number one. You have to get past that myth.

The second myth is that all you know is medicine and that you're not really qualified for other jobs. But again, I just described the fact that the prerequisite, the core prerequisite for doing 99% of these jobs is that you're a physician. Many of these jobs are open to physicians that don't have residency training or don't even have a license, but the fact that you're a physician is the core or central part that's needed.

Now, sometimes there are other skills that you need. Most of those can be usually learned on the job, or sometimes you can get a little extra training or certification or attend a course or something like that, and you'll be ready for those jobs. So, medicine is a very large, huge knowledge base. It includes so many different sciences, statistics, and epidemiology, not to mention how to work in teams, how to teach, and how to do presentations. There are so many skills you have, and you're so attractive as an employee because you're so reliable. Presenteeism is not an issue as opposed to absenteeism. Your focus, your ability to get the job done are just so great that you're a great employee anyway. And of course, even if you're going to do something if you're not employed, but you're self-employed, those skills all come in handy.

The third big myth is that your income is going to suffer significantly. Usually, when I'm addressing that, I talk about two things. Number one, you've got to compare apples and oranges. You cannot compare the fact that you're making $600,000 a year as some kind of surgeon or interventional cardiologist. Take into account, at least to some extent that to do that, most of the time you're being on call every third or fourth day, you're coming in at all hours, you're working 70 hours a week, more or less. And so, you've got to compare that to these other jobs where you're typically working 40 to 50 hours a week at the most. And also, the other jobs have to pay at least a basic salary of around $200,000 or more. They're not going to get physicians to do those jobs.

And the job growth and the salary growth is very rapid in some of those jobs. For example, most chief medical officers and hospitals make over $400,000 a year at this point. So, they're not low-paying jobs for the most part. If you're a freelance medical writer and you're only writing 10 hours a week, you're not going to make a lot of money. But there are medical writers and editors that make $200,000 and more a year as is right now.

All right, the other two myths. "I'm abandoning my patients." Just think of this. What job is it that you can create a new device or a new drug, bring it to market, demonstrate its safety that can save thousands of lives? Obviously, a pharma job. What job enables you to identify and reduce errors and improve the quality of care in a hospital? CMO jobs, medical director jobs. I saved more lives as a chief medical officer than I did seeing patients, most of which had really trivial illnesses or chronic illnesses that I had little impact on.

Most jobs that you do nonclinical have a very positive impact on populations of patients. And usually, it's many more patients than you could ever interact with and impact significantly one on one.

And then the issue of your stature and or reputation being diminished, that you're no longer a doctor. Everyone I've ever met who's done a nonclinical job is still called a doctor, still recognized as a physician. And part of that is because the jobs I talk about are those that involve building on your medical background. In other words, you're not just going to become, let's say, an attorney who doesn't work with malpractice cases or a business owner in something that has nothing to do with healthcare. Most everything we talk about here, our jobs in which it's part of your background as a physician, that is the reason you move into these new positions, which are usually a lot more pleasant, less stress, no liability. That's another thing that should be compared in terms of the cost.

And so, keep that in mind. Your reputation is intact. In fact, when I went from being just one family physician in a hospital with 300 or 400 physicians on staff to the chief medical officer, if anything, my stature and reputation improved significantly, and it's true of very many other jobs.

The first task is the self-limiting beliefs and myths. You have to keep reminding yourselves of these things as you go down this path to the roadmap to a new career. The second one I listed is reviewing job descriptions. Now, that might not be intuitive in the sense that usually you don't have to start actually looking at job descriptions, job postings on websites in Indeed, in LinkedIn and elsewhere, until you're actually getting ready to apply for a job.

However, we need to keep in mind what Stephen Covey mentioned many years ago, that when we're doing something, running a business, starting something, have a goal, we need to start with the end in mind. So, there are things that are peculiar to different types of jobs that you might not come to realize unless you actually start looking at job descriptions. Now, granted, a job description is only so long. It doesn't always tell you exactly what each job is going to entail. There might be things hidden, but there are going to be things in a job posting that you might have never thought of, even if you've done your research on a job.

Suffice it to say that you might think you know what an MSL - medical science liaison - does because you've read about it in an article or in a book or something. But you might look at the job description and go, "Oh, I didn't realize that's what I need to do or I didn't know that this was the jargon that we would use in this job."

And again, whether that's for working in pharmacovigilance in a pharma company or becoming a hospital medical director, or chief medical officer, or you're going to do something in an insurance company. As you go through those, you learn the language that's being spoken at least by the recruiters, and most likely also by the CEO or the people that are hiring you for a position for that particular industry. So, you want to start scanning through those. Again, you've already decided on two or three or four different industries you might be looking at a job in. So, you want to start scanning through those. And if you see something pop up like 50% of the time you're going to be traveling and you wanted to do something closer to home, that's going to tell you "This really isn't a job for me."

And there's lots of little things that can come up in those job descriptions that you might not have thought of. Again, this is just something to do with the beginning. Take a few notes, and keep them in mind. You will circle back to the job descriptions and the job postings later when you're getting serious about actually applying to a particular job.

And the other thing is, when you look at those things besides the factors that might exclude you from considering it, there might be some positive things that would tend to attract you to the job. But the other thing is they'll mention things where, okay, maybe there is some training, or maybe I should take a course or try to get some kind of experience. They'll list the type of experience they're expecting.

A lot of times for a management position for a physician, they have certain specific experiences they like you to have had. Like maybe you've looked at a P&L or other financial reports. Maybe you understand the difference between cash accounting and accrual accounting, and that you can learn from reading an article. You don't have to have a degree for that or get an MBA, but sometimes you might want to get a certification, and the certifications can sometimes be accomplished by reading something and taking an exam or maybe attending a few weeks of courses. And then taking an exam doesn't mean you're going back to college for a year or two part-time or full-time. It can be lots of little things that would give you a little edge over other people. So, that's the other reason for looking through those.

The third thing in this category, in this first major step is to find a mentor. I've talked about finding a mentor before several times. Episode 208, "How Do I Choose the Best Coaches Mentors and Masterminds for Me?" is one episode in which I discussed it. There are some others. And you can have more than one mentor. So that's one thing. If you have in mind two or three different industries that you're still toying with at this point early in the process, then get a mentor for each.

Sometimes I bring this other issue up. It's kind of like having a mentor and that's being able to shadow. It's really not that easy. And in a lot of nonclinical jobs, for heaven's sake, if you have a mentor and someone who could take you around showing them the job they're doing, that you're thinking about getting, shadowing for a day can be super helpful. You're not really going to be there to learn the skills or the techniques you would use in the job. Just to be exposed to make sure you understand that it's the type of thing you'd like to do.

So, find a mentor or two or three. I'll remind you that a mentor is someone that generally is looking out for your best interest, somebody who is not being paid generally. I distinguish a mentor from a coach, although there is some overlap there. But heck, if you're going into these jobs, you should be able to get somebody that you can talk to informally on a somewhat infrequent basis and just ask a single question or two. You're not trying to monopolize your time for two hours once a month to teach you everything you need to know about this job.

I had someone that I met through the medical society, the Illinois State Medical Society, who was working as a surveyor for CME like I was. And lo and behold, I didn't know what job he was doing. I just knew he wasn't seeing patients anymore. It turned out he was a chief medical officer for one of the largest stand-alone hospitals in the state of Illinois. I didn't even know what a CMO was. I'd never heard the term.

So, he became my mentor, and I'd meet with him informally three or four times a year at a meeting where we were doing something else, or maybe call him once in a great while, and that was it. But he gave me enough information and encouragement and support that I actually pursued that job as chief medical officer.

The fourth task in this Step One that we're talking about today is to join LinkedIn and create your first complete profile. Or if you already have a LinkedIn profile or LinkedIn page, it's a good chance it's not complete. And if it's not, then just go ahead and complete your first profile.

Now keep in mind, it's going to be sitting there. It doesn't have to be spectacular, and it can and will be updated later. In fact, you want to keep it kind of general because you haven't decided specifically which job you're going to apply for.

Once you get down to step five and you're applying for your job and you're completing your resume, then you want to tweak your LinkedIn to be much more specific. The other reason for that is if you're still employed, you don't necessarily want to let your employer know that you're looking for a job.

That would not be the first thing I'd put on the very top of my LinkedIn profile. I would tend to complete all the sections that LinkedIn asks you to complete, but you can just complete them with the information of what you're doing now and maybe some interests you have that are potentially pertinent to your new job, but you could put those down more as a hobby or an interest. So, keep that in mind, but those can always be updated.

The other thing is, if you're going to do this update from time to time, which you will as you get closer to the end of that process, you can turn off the notifications if you like, which means that when you add something like "I am now looking for a job in the pharma industry", you can make it so that your connections, your followers don't get a notice that you've made a change. The default, I think, in LinkedIn is still that anytime you make a change, that's a trigger for someone to get an update. Like, "Oh, John Jurica just updated his profile. He's now doing X, Y, and Z." You can turn that off so it's there if someone's looking for it actively or if you send them to your profile. But your friends and family and your boss and your coworkers won't be notified when you add those kinds of things to LinkedIn.

Those are four good things to work on in the first month of this 12-month roadmap to a new career. That's plenty to work on. And if something bleeds into the second step, that's fine too. It's like a Gantt chart where you're working on multiple things at the same time, and there can be overlap from step to step.

But you should have a few mentors. You should get that LinkedIn profile going. You should start looking at job descriptions, in my opinion, to help kind of hone your further research. And then you should make sure you still aren't being held back by some of the internal self-talk that goes on in terms of your limiting beliefs and or the common myths about nonclinical career transition.

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The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Month One of the 12 Month Roadmap to a New Career – 269 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today's podcast, John explains the power of the mastermind principle. He recounts the history of the discovery of the Mastermind Principle in 1939 attributed to Napoleon Hill, author of Think and Grow Rich. 

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Mastermind Principle Updated

A mastermind meeting typically lasts about an hour. During that time, the member in the hot seat presents a major challenge, and the remaining members probe to clarify the challenge and ask pointed questions to explore previous efforts to resolve it. Ultimately, possible solutions are generated and the hot seat member commits to following up with those ideas.

John, however, prefers using his “10-minute mastermind” approach for those pursuing job transition and advancement. This concept was adapted from “The 8-Minute Mastermind” by Brad Hart.

Meeting monthly, these sessions involve 5 to 10 clinicians each taking a turn on the hot seat. John currently holds these meetings on a Saturday morning or Wednesday evening. The sessions are recorded, and each participant receives a copy of the audio recording.

John also shares the “chat” record, with suggestions for experts and coaches, books, articles, podcast episodes, and other useful resources mentioned during the meeting.

Benefits of a Mastermind

The participants in this session have had outstanding success in selecting, pursuing, and landing nonclinical jobs.

Benefits of joining a Mastermind include:

• a source of encouragement and support,
• accountability,
• networking opportunities, and
• brainstorming.

They've been shown to help entrepreneurs and business leaders advance their careers and improve the performance of their organizations.

And for someone looking to change careers, it's great to learn about what others have tried, get support and encouragement, develop different approaches to your job search, and maintain accountability. As a result, you will progress steadily to your next position or career.

Your Own Mastermind Group

Start your own mastermind or join one that already exists. John has created a short worksheet called “Starting a 10-minute Mastermind” that you can download for free. It covers the initial steps to building a group and the outline that John uses to run his 10-minute masterminds.

To join one of John's masterminds, you can sign up at nonclinicalphysicians.com/mastermind.

Summary

For anybody wanting to accelerate their career transition, or to build success in whatever they're doing, leveraging the mastermind principle is the way to go. Done properly, there is no better way to develop a network, build confidence, overcome challenges, and maintain accountability.

In fact, being a member of more than one mastermind is not a bad idea. And if you can't find one to join, such as the Nonclinical Mastermind, you should get a few colleagues together and start your own. To learn how to do that, download our one-page worksheet and get started.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. [Also: the book links above are Amazon Affiliate links, so we receive a small commission when you buy using these links.]

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Start your own Mastermind 
• Sign Up for John's Mastermind 
• NewScr!pt

Download This Episode:

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 267

Why You Should Embrace the Powerful Mastermind Principle

John: Today, I want to discuss a topic that many of you might not be familiar with. In the world of career transition and in business this is a concept called the mastermind or the mastermind group. I define the term mastermind group in episode number 208 called "How do I choose the best coaches, mentors, and masterminds for me?" I included a little description of masterminds then but today I'd like to dig deeper into the concept of the mastermind group and try to convince you to figure out a way to participate in one of them.

First, let me tell you a little story from my history. I served as the CMO for a small community hospital for over a decade. The senior management team includes all the C-suite people, the CEOs, the CFOs, CMOs, CIO. There were also some VPs in there. There were about 10 or 11 of us most of the time. And I was the CMO. We met weekly either to discuss operations or strategic planning, follow up on our management goals, and so forth.

There was a coach that the CEO had hired and who he was employing for quite a while. And he made his coach available to the VPs and the CIO and all of us on that senior management team to work with him and meet with him on a regular basis if we wanted to. And as part of that, that coach would come to one of our meetings every month or two and he would lead us through a process designed to help one of us, one of the VPs, overcome a challenge in their division.

We would meet for an hour or so and one of us would describe a challenge we were facing. Then the other members of the group would ask questions to help clarify the problem. And we called this being on the hot seat or being in the hot seat, however you want to phrase it. Even though I used the term hot seat. That was not a negative because when we had a challenge, which we all did, we were working in healthcare, which is constantly experiencing new challenges, less payment, more regulations, difficulty hiring, finding good people, you name it. We actually look forward to being on the hot seat so we could leverage the expertise and experience of the rest of the group to help solve a problem. The thing was, once you were in the seat, you would then be questioned and queried by the other members as the first step. And it was a critical step because identifying the real problem often actually reveals the solution in many cases.

So let me give you an example. I thought that an uptick in the number of sentinel events, those are serious patient safety issues that come up in any hospital. I thought it was due to staffing issues, and I couldn't see how we could increase staff sufficiently to reduce the errors. And these errors are important because they affect patients, but they're actually tracked by public health, the state health department and Medicare and joint commission.

And so, in this case, we really needed to come up with a way to reduce these sentinel events. And then by answering a few probing questions by the rest of the team, it became really clear to me that the issue was the one of the culture of the organization which needed to be addressed, that it really wasn't the fact that we didn't have enough staff, but that our staff looked at safety not as a priority at that time. Now, granted, they wanted to give the best care they could give and everyone tried their best. But the reality was that the issue of safety was way down below the top two or three or four things that our staff thought about when they were taking care of patients.

And so, as we were discussing this, it became more and more clear to me that it was a cultural issue. It needed to be addressed that way. And eventually then we took some time to discuss, "Well, how could we improve the culture of safety in our organization?" And then we also brainstorm side ideas and how to actually do that.

What typically we would do after clearing the true nature of the problem, the rest of the team would ask other probing questions such as "What have you tried so far to resolve this issue and what are the things you have considered and discarded and why?" And then like I said, we did a bro brainstorming session and the coach that was there would really encourage us to brainstorm any ideas. Normally when you're brainstorming, sometimes you will hold back because you'll think ideas might sound stupid or they've never been tried before. And so, you just don't even contribute those.

But the coach is there to promote and to say, "Look, nothing is off the table. Think outside the box. Whatever you come up with, share it, and then we'll talk about it." Over time, the suggestions could become more and more outrageous or extreme, but eventually we would have 10 or 12 potential tactics to consider to address an important problem. And I was always amazed by how many ideas would come up. Something that I wouldn't have thought would happen, that would just come up.

And the thing about the coach that he did in which I try to do now in most of my meetings is not let the stronger personalities take over the conversation. It's very common to be in a committee meeting of six to eight or 10, 12 people, and find that only one or two people dominate the conversation, even when the chair is trying to elicit responses. But this coach was great and I've learned to do the same thing of saying, "Okay, we've heard what you said, Dan. Now, Susan, can you please tell us what you're thinking? You haven't spoken up yet." And so, that's a good strategy in any committee or any team, but that's what happens in a hot seat. You're encouraged. You're trying to encourage everybody to ask questions and then do some brainstorming.

I'll give you another example. Our COO and our VP for strategic planning, both had been with the organization for a long time. And they were always the first ones to jump in with a solution any time the CEO brought something to our regular meetings. And my style was to spend more time considering possible solutions before speaking up. And sometimes that meant I wouldn't even respond during this meeting. I would come back a week or two later to another meeting and say, "Hey, I was thinking about some things we were talking about last time." And I wanted to do it back in that meeting context, because that way I would share it with everybody instead of just going to the COO or going to the CEO. And then we could have a short conversation and maybe others had thought of ideas. So, I think it was just something that happens often in any senior management team.

Anyway, at the end of this conversation, our coach would ask the person on the hot seat, "Which of the ideas seemed to be worth exploring further and get us to commit to what we would do of those ideas, which would we follow up on?" And then there would be a timeframe. So this is the way you maintain accountability.

I would say, "Look, this has been fantastic. You've given me some great ideas." Let's say, for example, we're talking about the culture of safety. "I'm going to look into what the best practices are for creating a culture of safety in a hospital and I'll report back. I have done some research in the past, and I know that doing a survey is a part of that. So I will bring back some examples of cultural surveys for employees, specifically those for a culture of safety." And then at some point, two, three, four weeks down the road, we would follow up and it'd be on the list of things that the CEO wanted to talk about would be my follow up or we would do it if we were doing a series of let's say mastermind groups every two or three months.

What I've described here is a mastermind session. When you use the term hot seat and particularly when you're talking about a group getting together and solving a problem, it's often one of these mastermind sessions. And a lot of business people have been using these for years and years, but you don't hear about them being used a lot for career transition. They can really be used for any kind of group getting together to support and encourage one another to make progress in whatever it is they're talking about.

Any collection of people going through this kind of process is called a mastermind group, or more simply just a mastermind as a shorthand. It's a process that's been around for a long time. Some people believe it was started by Napoleon Hill who may have coined the term in the 1930s. He was a self-help author and was known for his book "Think and Grow Rich", which was published in 1937. And I think it was in this book that I found this topic, this quote from the book. And let me just read it to you now.

"Here are some interesting facts about the mastermind, which will give you an idea of how important it is and how necessary that you embrace this principle and make use of it in attaining success in your chosen occupation. First of all, it is the principle through which you may borrow and use the education experience and influence, and perhaps capital of other people in carrying out your own plans in life. It is the principle through which you can accomplish in one year more than you could accomplish without it in a lifetime if you depended entirely on your own efforts for success."

That's the end of that quote, but you can kind of get the idea. You have to form a group and you learn and work with that group and you accomplish a lot more by working in a formal mastermind type situation. He originally called it a Mastermind Alliance. Later was shortened to mastermind group, or more simply a mastermind.

So why am I belaboring this topic? Well, because I believe that the mastermind is an awesome tool that you can add to your arsenal to enhance your growth and to succeed. Even if you're doing clinical medicine and you're in a group and you want to progress in the group, believe me, if you get together with a group of similar such physicians and talk about how you can progress in your practice clinically and administratively, you'll move much quicker than those that don't do such a mastermind session.

Here's some characteristics of a mastermind. Mastermind groups help like-minded professionals get peer support, brainstorm ideas, and create accountability. Those are three of the big parts of it. They're typically goal oriented and success driven. And some people have even used the term personal board of directors to refer to a mastermind group.

The thing is the members of the group are committed to the success of one another to the success of the other members of the group. There is a belief that you're basically the sum of the five people you spend the most time with. In other words, your success in life, your happiness, your advancement in a job are related to the people that are around you because you learn from them and they begin to expect certain things of you and you of them. That's just in general. Well, that's why we call a mastermind a personal board of directors, because it's just like that, but in a more organized and committed fashion. It's overt.

Another important component of a mastermind are resources and connections. Actually the people in a mastermind have been known to support one another financially. Now not to form a co-op or something but to make referrals, to use their products, that sort of thing. And the other thing is when you're in a mastermind, you can learn what other tools people have used to get their advancement to progress. Or a lot of times in the online world of courses and coaching and so forth we learn from our cohort, our colleagues in the field and particularly those in the mastermind group, "Okay, what electronic tools do you use and what professional societies do you belong to and where did you learn how to podcast? Where did you learn how to use email and what products are you using?"

Resources and connections are really important. Some masterminds lead to business partnerships. And even it can go so far as to learn skills which can be shared and learned in some masterminds where someone actually takes an hour and lectures the rest of the group. Although that's not the core part of a mastermind, the core part is this process of questioning and digging and encouraging.

Now, let me give you a list of just some of the famous people going way back who actually attributed their success to being members of a mastermind. That includes Andrew Carnegie. They're writers including C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, Charles Williams, and Owen Barfield who were in masterminds. President Theodore Roosevelt attributed some of his success to being in a mastermind. And one of the more famous masterminds ever was one that included Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, President Warren G. Harding, and Harvey Firestone. They were all members of the same mastermind. And you can imagine that they were all buoyed up by each other's success and learn from each other as they were sort of progressing in the early industrial revolution in this country. Now the original masterminds obviously met in person but now it's easy to have meetings remotely with online conferencing.

And not every mastermind follows the exact same, outline or same way to approach things. People have taken masterminds and done them in different ways. There's such a thing as a face to face one or two hour mastermind section, like I talked about with our CEO. And the person on the hot seat might spend a whole hour on the hot seat during that time. And then there might be a second person on the hot seat.

More recently there's been something that was touted as the eight minute mastermind, which I have adopted as a 10 minute mastermind, but there's a book written by Brad Hart. I have a copy of the book over here called "The 8-Minute Mastermind" in which he describes his success with doing this kind of mastermind. And I found it so compelling that I just started my own 10 minute masterminds committed to career advancement and career transition.

There is another type where you might spend an entire weekend or even three or four days together, and get together with people where each person during that weekend gets to spend several hours on the mastermind hot seat. So, if you had let's say 10 people, and you might have this interspersed with some lectures, but then in between, you're getting together and attending number one gets to spend an hour on the mastermind and attending number two gets to spend an hour in the hot seat, I should say. And so they can be constructed in different ways.

Anyway, I mentioned that I created a 10 minute mastermind. And so, let me explain to you how I run my mastermind groups. I recruited a group of physicians to meet once a month using Zoom. Pretty straightforward. We limit the time in the hot seat to 10 minutes. Now that's a little tight, but the advantage of doing 10 minutes is that every time we meet, we can all get 10 minutes on the hot seat. Usually I don't get on the hot seat personally, sometimes I do if we have time, but I devoted to the other members.

And so, let's say that we have seven members. We've got a little bit of time at the front and at the back end, starting up and closing. And so, with seven members, we can spend 70 plus or minus minutes each one getting on the hot seat for 10 minutes. And during that time, they go through this process, it's very focused. And this is how I've been running mine and I really like it and the members have really liked it. And in this way, also, you get everybody on the hot seat at every meeting. Everybody feels they're making progress.

Now I will say this. If you attend a mastermind meeting and you run out of time, you just decide not to share. That's fine because you know what? You learn so much by listening to the challenges and the problems of others in the group. And that was even true when I was back as a CMO, where I was not on the hot seat, but I was participating, I was learning a lot.

It's the same thing. I can't tell you how many times I've had physicians who've participated in one of these meetings and they had to drop off, or we just had too many people to fit in in a 90 minute meeting and they said they learned so much. Because as you're brainstorming for other people, there's a lot that overlaps with what you might need.

So let me walk you through the process that I follow and maybe something that you can do on your own forming your own group. I facilitate the meetings and once we're all together, I actually record them. We run them on Zoom and the first one in the hot seat spends 30 to 40 seconds introducing themselves. Obviously they can't go into a very long step by step what they did during their whole career and their education and training, but they just introduced themselves. And the thing is, since these meetings are recurring, over time, we really get to know each other, even though we're only spending 30 to 60 seconds introducing ourselves.

Then I ask everybody to describe something that they're grateful for or that they're celebrating.

We like everything here to be on a positive note. We're all here to encourage one another, to help each other advance and to find success in their lives, in their profession, maybe even their personal lives.

And so, we all start by talking about something. Maybe like "My daughter got married last weekend, it was fantastic." Or "I just got a new puppy." Or "I just got this new job. I was promoted in this job I'm doing in my practice and it gives me a chance to do some new things." Any of these things are positive. You've got the intro, you've got the thing you're grateful for or celebrating. And then you have to describe the challenge that you're bringing to this meeting.

Again, we're not going to focus on something like, "Well, I'm not sure if I should leave my practice or not." I mean, we can, but that's not a very focused challenge. Now, we might move forward, but we might ask for someone to be a little more specific. So we try to find an individual challenge for that meeting, for that month. And we'll have multiple challenges.

So it's not necessarily going to be what you'd expect, but it should be focused, but not too focused. And then we learn over time as we meet over and over again how to do this, but here's one. "I'm really unhappy in my job, but I don't know whether I should look for another job or leave medicine altogether." That's a pretty big challenge. We could take that on. But if possible it should be a little more focused like "I've decided I want to pursue a job in pharma, but I'm not sure where to start." That's a little more focused. Or here's another one, "I'm a hospitalist and I work a few hours per week as a part-time medical director, but I'd like to figure out how to become a full-time medical director or chief medical officer." Okay. Still pretty broad, but a little more focused. How about this one? "I need to work from home and I've narrowed my options down to medical writing or medical communications with an agency and I'm not sure how to decide which direction to go." Now we're getting down to a choice between two.

But it could be even something as specific as "I've been working in medical communications as an associate medical director, but I need to learn how to advance in my job. So, I'd like to get some support and some help from the group on how do I prepare myself and position myself to advance in a job that's already nonclinical."

At that point, there'll be a lot of clarifying questions. That's the next step. The other members ask the person in the hot seat clarifying questions. It's interesting because sometimes in clarifying the question, the question is actually something else, something behind the first iteration of what you say about a question. And by simply clarifying it, you sometimes achieve the solution, you find the solution to it.

We spent a lot of time, probably it might be 2, 3, 4 minutes of other members asking questions to try and clarify the question, and then they'll ask more probing questions such as "Well, what have you tried? What's worked or what has partially worked? What hasn't worked?" And then as we think about similar situations for us, we'll ask them more leading questions. "Well, I tried this in a similar situation. Have you ever tried that?" And then you might move on to, "Well, if you haven't tried it, what do you think of trying it? How would it look if you were to try it?"

Sometimes we'll ask the kind of questions a coach would typically ask. Sometimes we'll say something a little cheeky like, "Well, I know this seems like a difficult problem, but if it were easy, what would it look like?" And so on and so forth. There's thousands of questions you could potentially ask. But usually people start to have "aha" moments and they start to get insights and others starts making suggestions like "I have a friend who did UM and they told me that the way they got over this hump was by doing this" or "The way that I found the experience I needed to advance in my group was I started volunteering for things" or "I know I was having a hard time getting a job in pharma till finally I figured out I needed to have the name of someone that I could get in touch with and let them know I was submitting an application and a resume. And I got a lot better response than just sending it online to just this black box of where resumes go to die." So, there's all kinds of specific feedback you can get.

And usually at the end, I will ask somebody before we close on their 10 minutes, "Okay, now, number one, what have you gotten and what are the two or three things you are going to follow up on for the next time that we meet?" Now, we don't always ask at the next meeting for them to dictate or to list everything that they said they were going to do and did they do it and what did they find out. We're all professionals. We expect people are going to listen and then follow up on things that are pointed out but sometimes we will, and sometimes people will just naturally do that at the next meeting where they'll say, "Oh yeah, I was going to check out this recruiting firm. I was going to check out this article or buy this book" or something like that.

The last thing we close with at the end is I usually ask them if they feel like they've been supported because in a group at a minimum the members of the group support and encourage one another. And usually there are very actionable things that come up, whether generated by the person in the hot seat themselves or solicited from the people on the call. And then this whole process goes with the next person, the next person, the next person. Over time, you become very good at doing it.

I've seen many times where we've had just one little nugget or one little referral to a company or two, a website or a podcast episode or anything, will have solved the person's problem and overcome their challenge and they'll come back and they'll be just so happy. These breakthroughs don't happen for everybody at every meeting, but the whole group keeps progressing and progressing at each meeting. It's very rewarding and very positive.

So, that's my experience with masterminds. And again, I would think we should all be in some kind of a mastermind. It's a useful and powerful tool for advancing your business. If you're in a small business, advancing your career. It's used all the time for people that work in business outside of healthcare and I think we need to bring it into the healthcare situations more than we have in the past.

The other thing is for business owners is a great way to connect and build relationships, learn new skills and keep up with new developments in the field because it's an automatic way to network and communicate. And for someone wishing to switch careers, it's awesome for hearing about what others have tried, to get encouragement and support, to brainstorm new ways to approach your job search and maintain accountability. So you move forward consistently to that next job or that next career.

My advice at this point after going through all of that is to implore you to either join an existing mastermind or to start your own. I've prepared a short worksheet called "Starting a 10 minute Mastermind", and it describes how to start your own mastermind. And it includes the outline that I follow for the 10 minute nonclinical masterminds that I run. There'll be a little bit of an overview, what are the steps to finding people and getting together. And then also the little outline that I use to actually run my 10 minute mastermind. You don't have to do yours that way. You can follow one of the other formats, but I thought I had to put at least one way to do it. And so, if you can just reach out to six or seven people that you know and start doing this in person somewhere near your home, or even online using Zoom. Most of us have access to Zoom. And in most groups, I send the Zoom meeting announcements to my groups personally, but somebody else in a group could do it if they needed to in my absence.

Anyway, to get that worksheet free, obviously you can find that by going to nonclinicalphysicians.com/mymastermindstartup. Now I'll give you another option. If you can't find a mastermind among your colleagues, or if you can't put one together for whatever reason, or you don't want to start your own, then you should consider joining one of mine. They're structured as a monthly group that meet on Wednesday evening or Saturday morning once a month. And for my masterminds it is a very low fee to join. It will be going up in October, but if you join now, it's locked in for as long as you stay in the mastermind. But it is an annual type of thing. So, it's 12 meetings over a year. We record the meetings and everyone gets a copy of the recording.

I keep track of some of the resources. We communicate in the chat also which I download and share with everybody as well. We do everything we can to make sure everybody has access to all the resources that come up during the meeting. And they also can go back and re-listen to it if they like.

I'll put a link to that. To access my mastermind, you'll go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/mastermind and it should take you right to the page where you can sign up. Sometimes I turn that off and I just collect names rather than have the sign up, but for now, I'm actually signing people up. Again, nonclinicalphysicians.com/mastermind.

And you can find that link and the link to the startup worksheet that I talked about a minute ago in the show notes of today's episode at nonclinicalphysicians.com/powerful-mastermind. Just go to the show notes, everything is in there including a copy of transcript of today's episode. That's always nice to go through if you kind of have questions about what I talked about today instead of listening through the whole thing. This will also be posted on YouTube most likely.

All right. So, that's all I have for today.

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The post Why You Should Embrace the Powerful Mastermind Principle – 267 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today's podcast, Dr. Cherisa Sandrow explains how she created a life with freedom of time, place, and means (money). 

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We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Life with Freedom of Time, Place and Means

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow will be launching a new course called, “From Here to There – Leveraging Virtual Medicine“. She was inspired after participating in the Empowering Women Physicians Programs.

Sandrow Consulting gives physicians tools to create a life with freedom of time, place, and means by using telehealth to replace income; especially physicians who are exhausted, stressed out, burned out, or who need flexibility and independence for other reasons.

This new course lasts for 10 to 12 weeks and is supported by a dozen other career transition experts.

Dr. Sandrow will assist you with upgrading your résumé, LinkedIn profile, and bio as part of the application process. The program includes instructions on how to set up the telehealth workspace, the medical component of telehealth, what to expect from physical exams, and then how to document properly and efficiently.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow's Advice

We live in this world of mentorship and colleagues… there are people that have done what you want to do that can guide you… and that's always been my mindset… the other thing is that we all have this incredible resilience…

Summary

Telemedicine is a proven solution. However, it is not necessarily the end goal. With the freedom and flexibility it offers, we can create space to rediscover our passion and sense of purpose in life.

You can learn more about From Here to There: Leveraging Virtual Medicine by going to nonclinicalphysicians.com/freedom/

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Links for Today's Episode:

• How Do I Generate Awesome Income with Telemedicine Services? – Episode 222
• From Here to There: Leveraging Virtual Medicine
• Dr. Cherisa Sandrow's Website
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 266

Create a Life with Freedom of Time, Place, and Means

- Interview with Dr. Cherisa Sandrow

John: I'm always looking for new programs, courses, books, other resources that will help physicians find more freedom and satisfaction in their lives and maybe also transition to a newer career that builds on their background in medicine. But anyway, that's why I'm bringing back today's guest who's been here before, and she's going to tell us something more about what we spoke about last time and some new things going on. So, with that, I'd like to welcome Dr. Cherisa Sandrow. Hello, and welcome back.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Hi, it's great to be back. It's great to see you again.

John: What you taught us last time and talked to us about last time was so practical. Now it's been almost a year and you've got a new program coming up. And so, I just wanted to catch up with you and kind of figure out what's going on and how it might benefit you, my listeners out there. So, tell me a little bit about what's happened since we last spoke almost a year ago.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Yeah. Great. The world has opened back up which has been awesome. COVID was such a time of isolation for so many. And so, my family and I moved from the Portland Oregon area to Bend, Oregon, which has been our vacation place. It's been one of our favorite places to visit over the past 10 years.

And so, the move is awesome, but also has been a little challenging in regards to community. Between working from home and moving to a new town and COVID, it's challenging to create community, and I know I'm not alone. I actually just saw a post on a Facebook page about a similar situation. I feel like so many physicians and I can speak more directly to female physicians. So many female physicians just feel isolated and are seeking connection. And I'm sure that's true of everybody.

When I in the fall had decided I wanted to put my curriculum onto video, I had been listening to Sunny Smith coach on a semi-retired MD course that I was taking. And as I was listening to her coach, I decided that I wanted to enroll in her summer EWP, the Empowering Women Physicians coaching course. And so that just wrapped up, and it was such a powerful summer of connection and community.

During that course, actually very early on in the course, I was inspired to create this entirely new direction for my consulting business. And so, I'll be launching a course called From Here to There - Leveraging virtual medicine. And I am just in such a different space going into it. I actually was saying I'm feeling like I am lacking joy and connection in my life. And now I feel like I have this entire community and I feel so much more inspiration in my life. So, that's really where I'm at and my girls are just starting school this week.

John: Nice. A little trivia here for the listeners. I'm going to quiz you on this maybe six months from now, but I actually have been in Bend, Oregon once and I was rock climbing with a coach or a guide. It's the only outdoor climbing I've ever done in my life. I'm not a rock climber per se, but Bend, Oregon is an awesome place. It's just like you are living in constant vacation, aren't you, when you're in that part of the country?

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: That is why people move here. The people that move here are avid outdoor adventurists and love to be active. Basically, it's a town of people that are wanting to live in that environment. And it's grown so much, especially during COVID. Many people from California have moved here, which I think that Californian have moved everywhere.

John: Well, it's a rock-climbing Mecca from what I understand. So, you and your whole family has to learn how to rock climb if you're not already doing it.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: When we moved here, it was almost one of the things, not the highest thing on our list of reasons to move here, but it was on that list. So, my oldest daughter is a little rock-climbing prodigy. And so, when we put her on a rock wall a couple years ago, she just went right to the top and we were like, "Holy cow." And so, she rock climbs regularly. She's on the rock-climbing team.

John: Oh boy. Yeah. You're going to have to send some photos out on LinkedIn or something.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Okay. I'll do that.

John: All right. But let's get back to the matter at hand here. Now you have been going through a lot of different things, but one of which is creating this program and kind of expanding it from what I understand.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: I'll start with why me, why would I be the person to teach this? So many physicians are wanting to transition to telehealth in the last couple of years. COVID just brought it to the forefront, but it's challenging to know how to even get started and how to make it lucrative, how to actually replace your income with it. And so, I'm a family practice doctor for the first 10 years of practice. I practiced full spectrum family medicine with OB.

And I started working in telemedicine in 2015. I stayed before it was cool and I was doing a little bit of telehealth on the side. And so, I I did that for a year and a half where I was just working with one company, like moonlighting with them, essentially. And in 2017, I transitioned to telemedicine full-time and I was able to not only replace my income, but essentially double my income and cut my hours that I was working in half. And that's what physicians want to do.

And in 2020, I had a lot of physicians that were reaching out, asking me how I did this. And so, I decided to create a curriculum to teach others and I have been coaching one on one over the past two years with using this curriculum. And so, I've created this freedom and flexibility in my life, and I'm super passionate about teaching other physicians who are burnout and wanting a change, how to reclaim and transform their life.

Sandrow Consulting is the name of my company. We help physicians acquire the skills, the tools and the mindset so they can leave their practice and use telehealth as a vehicle to replace their income and give them more time and freedom to figure out what else they want to do in their life. And so, I will take people through all of the steps in the process to get up and running and actually replacing your income will provide the one one-on-one end group support through that transition.

My husband is actually going to be partnering with me on this next phase of our journey. He's been kind of the silent partner as of now, he's been foundational for me though in creating the success that I have. He also is a recovered burnt-out sports med chiropractic physician. He owned a practice, and he has been in the coaching space for the last eight years. And his focus has been really functional medicine and wellness, and his expertise that he's bringing is this is business ownership mindset productivity and system creation, and creating a sense of wellness. And so, our goal is to help physicians just rediscover our purpose and reignite our passion.

Why we went into medicine? We went into medicine because we're super passionate about serving and helping other people. And there's a deep sense of purpose that got us there because in order to get into medical school, we are the top. We go above and beyond. Then you get there and you just spend more than a decade in training and you sacrifice your life and you put everything else on hold and you go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt thinking that after you're done with your training, life will be awesome.

And then we get there and life doesn't feel awesome for a lot of physicians and we feel trapped because what else are we going to do? We have all this money to pay back and how else are we going to make a quarter million dollars a year? And we don't realize how much we actually are capable of doing and how many opportunities are out there in the world, which is why I love everything that you do because you start planting seeds and opening people's eyes.

And so, I had my husband go through a program with Caroline Leaf, who is a neuroscientist. She wrote a book called "Switch On Your Brain" and another book called "Cleaning Up Your Mental Mess." She has this neuro cycle program that helps us change our toxic thoughts and rewire our brain. She's studied neuroplasticity for 35 years. And so, she started a facilitator program this year. The goal for me having my husband go through this training is that cleaning up those toxic thoughts and helping people rewire their brain is foundational in recovering from burnout because we just get stuck in a certain way of thinking. And actually, if somebody were to change from a clinical practice or a hospital practice where they're burnt out and they start doing any other thing, if they don't change the toxic thoughts and the patterns that we've developed that is like this work course, just drop work till you drop sort of mindset, we're just going to do the same thing in another field. And so, along that journey of transition, a huge piece of the transition is changing the way our mind is working. And my husband is going to bring that element.

And then the other piece of it is prior to the transition that we made, we were struggling. I mean, we were so close to divorce and we had two children. And my older daughter has some high needs and special needs. And so, through this transition, we were able to heal our marriage and just redefine our core values and redefine ourselves, our own way of thinking. And we are functioning in the world, we are showing up in the world. And so, we are such a great example for other people who are kind of in the same space.

John: Yeah. That gives me a pretty good idea, I think and the listeners too, what kind of got you here. I will say this, that it's funny. Physicians become so desperate to leave, but it's funny because they feel like they're compelled to do something. And the question I get all the time is "I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do."

And I think by addressing all the issues you mentioned in addition to what to do as far as the actual job, but to have the job included, look, here's an easy... Well, it's not easy. It takes work and it takes learning, but here is a proven solution, telemedicine. You can make the same amount of money unless you're a multimillion-dollar high RVU interventional something or other. And you're going to make good money and you're going to have flexibility and freedom and time if they do it the way you do it.

So, I like it. It's not going to be perfect for everybody, but it's going to get people into something quickly and to still pay their bills and pay back their loans. And then if they even want to shift, it sounds like they could do something a little different later, but they have a solution right now.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Yeah, that's absolutely my vision. Telemedicine is not necessarily the end goal. It's freedom and flexibility in our lives and reigniting our own passion and purpose. And telemedicine is a vehicle that I've used. And so, I can teach other people. But then once you get that time back in your life and you heal a little bit from the burnout, then you have the capacity to explore what else you might want to do.

And truly telehealth, the future of telehealth is way more than what most people realize. The American Medical Association adopted a policy back in 2016 that was aimed to ensure that med students and residents learn how to use telemedicine in their clinical practice. And so, this has been like even before COVID a plan for the future of our healthcare system. And in that, they had said as innovation and care delivery and technology continued to transform healthcare, we must ensure that our current future physicians have the tools and resources they need to provide the best possible care for their patients. And for sure, I think once people get into the telehealth world and they start to realize how many opportunities are available, it starts to become more clear how much telehealth and the virtual medicine world is really going to be able to transform our healthcare system. And so, that's definitely exciting.

John: We're talking about, "Well, you could be burned out, you could just be unhappy." What have you. But I'm assuming in your mind, you have a clear picture of who is this ideally, the program you've already been doing with your coaching and so forth, who is the ideal person that would take advantage? I'm sure it's not someone who just had a thought like, "Oh, I'm just a little unhappy." It's probably someone who's really kind of... They don't necessarily have to be burnt out. Tell us about that. Who would be the ideal person?

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Yeah. I feel that it's important for people to be in practice a few years before transitioning to telehealth. And so, I don't know that I will turn somebody away who is straight out of residency, but I'm absolutely going to encourage them to do some in-person practice in addition to telehealth, if they want to start doing telehealth early on. And so, really my work is geared towards helping physicians that have been in practice and are struggling to balance work, family and their own life, their own wellness. I think that's most of us though. But not everybody wants to leave practice actually. There's a lot of people that are not even considering the options.

My client is the person who's tired, stressed, and burnt out, or needing flexibility and freedom for some other reasons. When I first put the course together, it was during COVID. And so, my mindset was maybe they're caring for an elderly and they don't want to be exposing them to COVID or maybe they need to be available for their kids that are homeschooling. But there's always life situations that happen and our typical practice doesn't give us the freedom and flexibility. Maybe it's a single mom, a newly single mom or newly single parent, who just has to have more flexibility than our typical practice allows.

John: Yeah. It seems obvious, when you think about telehealth or telemedicine as opposed to traditional practice, one of the big differences besides being on call and having going to the OR in the middle of the night or something is just usually at 08:00 to 06:00. I wouldn't say 09:00 to 05:00, but there's set hours. Whereas I think in most forms in telemedicine you can choose to have more flexibility. You can be taking calls on the weekends or at night or different time zones. So, that part of it, that's where it sounds like it's very flexible, but you have to be disciplined, I would assume.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Yeah. That's actually very true. Well, we are so used to being so busy with somebody else controlling our schedule that when we transition to probably a lot of remote work, but when we transition to business ownership, we have to create our own schedule. Or we will either end up just doing the same thing, working like never leaving your office or you won't ever get work done, because you'll do laundry and you'll have this appointment and that appointment and you want to work out. And so, it is important to learn how to create a schedule, which is actually something that I teach. I think it's important enough to focus on and learn. We don't learn that.

John: The other question that I come across this fear of the unknown is that the physicians that are looking to make a change, they can't really envision what the steps are. They don't know what they should do. "Should I do a CV? Should I start looking? What do I do?" And I think when they have someone like you that can sort of walk them through the steps, there's certain milestones or things that you'll be looking along the way. So maybe I'm assuming that your program kind of addresses those. Are there some big major milestones that people have to kind of get through in this process?

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Yeah. Absolutely. And we do all of that. State licensing, getting licensed in multiple states is the thing that kind of takes the longest. And so, we start that process. We help people start that process really in the very beginning, because that is really the piece that we're going to be waiting for at the end is for those licenses to come through. And then we help people first figure out "What your vision is for your life? What do you want your life to look like? What do you want your practice to look like?" And that helps guide us as to where we're going to go with what companies and what direction we're going to go. And so, we focus in the beginning on rediscovering what our strengths are, what our purpose is, what we're passionate about and how we want to show up in the world.

And then we start identifying what the telehealth business vision is and what our goals are. And then setting up a business foundation is huge. And so, I'm going to have a telemedicine lawyer come in and speak. I have a small business accountant who will come in and speak and a bookkeeper who will come in and speak. I will help people with the things that need to get done. And so, setting up an LLC and talking about business ownership, tax write-offs, that kind of stuff. And then we're exploring the companies and which ones to apply for, which is very overwhelming. There's so many. How to review the contracts with the different companies to make sure that you're aware of what you're committing to.

And non-competes are an issue with a lot of the companies. And it's a reason why I never took a job with any of the telehealth companies, because most of them have these non-competes that make it difficult. If you sign a non-compete in the telehealth world, you can't do anything anywhere in the country. And so, I know that a lot of physicians are struggling with their local non-competes and I think it's really important that if somebody wants to transition to telehealth, then they are looking at taking a job with one of the telehealth companies that they're aware of the implications of the non-competes that they may be signing.

And then as far as the application process I help with updating your resume and updating your LinkedIn profile and creating a bio, and then setting up the telehealth workspace and all of the medicine part of telehealth, what's expected from the physical exams and then how to document. And so, all of those pieces along the way, I'm walking somebody through. And so, yeah, there's actually a lot of pieces in the transition that can become very overwhelming if you're not supported through that transition.

John: I was kind of chuckling a little bit because I had this vision. I have a friend and I think you know this friend I'm talking about. I thought the place where you do this is in a chair on the beach or something.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: It could be.

John: It could be.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Actually, if you're not doing video calls, if you're taking phone calls or with asynchronous telemedicine, you can be anywhere. And so, if you're doing video or phone visits, you still want to have a HIPAA compliance sort of space and privacy, it still applies.

John: Okay. Well, it sounds like there's a lot of pieces here and it's probably not all crammed into one week. So I'm just curious how does your program look right now in terms of trying to get through this? And not to get through it, but they have time to digest it, maybe ask questions. So, what kind of a timeframe are we talking about that people would commit to, if they were to pursue this?

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: It will be 10 to 12 weeks. And I have about a dozen experts that I'm bringing into speak that will help encourage everybody when they're hearing other physicians that have create... It's not just me. There are others that have created this similar success in the telehealth world. And hearing other people's stories and how other people were able to create the success and what their journey looked like is of course encouraging. And then we'll have Q&A time with all of those experts as well.

John: Well, that's 12 weeks, basically, if you're saying to go from A to Z, to go from not even have ever set foot in telemedicine, so to speak. And then at the end to be able to do telemedicine, telehealth, whichever version of the approach you're taking. That's quite a transition in a quarter. But it sounds like there's enough time to really dig into each topic and optimize it and make decisions. Because like you said, I'm getting that there are just so many different versions of telehealth that you can choose from. And I know in our last interview, people should go back, I'll put a link to that, but you explained in detail how to overlap some of these things, or it's not really multitasking, but if there's a downtime in this, you've got this other one you can adjust.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Like how to stack them.

John: Stacking. Exactly. That definitely is something that you want to learn as early as possible, but it does take time I'm sure, once you get going to get that experience and to feel comfortable and to become efficient.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Yeah. I think the important thing though to know is that medicine is still the same. And so, the practice of medicine is still the practice of medicine. And we know that, we've been doing that. The delivery changes. And so, we need to learn, there's a lot of mindset shift and there's a lot of belief that has to happen, but the core skill set, we have that.

For me, the business ownership piece of it is important because we are not trained to be business owners and you can take a job with a telehealth company, but you're not going to have as much freedom and flexibility and ownership of your life and you're not going to be as profitable if you take a job with a company because then you are only able to work in that job. And so, teaching business ownership I think is a huge piece.

John: No, that's absolutely critical, I think, to have that freedom, otherwise you're just kind of back in a rat race to some extent, and you're controlled. And when you were talking about the issue of non-compete, that applies probably to both whether you're employed or even if you do have your own business, if you don't sign the right contract. Because you can get stuck with a non-compete, even if you're an independent contractor.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Yeah. We have to read the contracts and be careful with them, but it can. I think the intention of the telehealth companies with the non-competes is that you're not working with another telehealth company. There is only one company that I've encountered that only required that non-compete of physicians and leadership position. And it was around proprietary information, which makes sense to me. But when a company says you can't work with any other telehealth companies, then if that company is slow, and if you're not busy, then you can't do something else. And then in a lot of them, that non-compete limits you if you decide to leave that company. So, then you can't continue doing telehealth. It's just important to be aware of that.

John: Let's see. Let me refresh the audience's memory here on your site. Your website is sandrowconsulting.com. They can go there and see where things stand. If they want to use a link that I can provide, that's nonclinicalphysicians.com/freedom. And that will take them also to that now. I am helping to promote it. And so, I'll probably come up with some kind of bonus for someone to use that link, but either way they can definitely track it down and I'll put that in the show notes. And yeah, I would love to hear the results of some of your clients, customers four or six months down the road. We'll have to track some of them down and maybe I'll get them on the podcast.

Anything else you want to tell us about the program or any other words of advice or wisdom or encouragement you'd like to give us today?

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: I just want to encourage physicians to recognize how well trained we are as physicians, but our preparation is to be an employee. And so, we have this really extensive training, but then we end up being put into a job where we're the clinician, we're the practitioner. And that's amazing, but it makes us feel like that's all we can do.

And I want people to understand that there is so much, there are so many opportunities that are available, and there are so many experts that are in these different areas that are available to help guide them. And our whole training model is in this mentorship model. Throughout med school and residency, we're mentored. And even going into practice, we run things by our colleagues all the time. That's how we work. You get another set of eyes to go look at your rash, or you review an X-ray with a colleague or you call the specialist to run something by them.

We live in this world of mentorship and colleagues, but then if we decide to transition out on our own, we think we need to figure it out on our own. So, there's a plethora of information on the internet if we start trying to figure it out on our own, but there are people that have done what you want to do that can guide you. Whether you're wanting to go into pharma or coaching or whatever, real estate, there's these mentors. And I think that's something that I valued always.

And so, when I first started out, I reached out to people and I hired Tom Davis to help me when I first started creating my curriculum because I knew I didn't have some of that business skills. And that's always been my mindset is to hire other people to help me because that's how we're trained, but not everybody realizes the value and importance in that. And so, I think that's really important.

And then the other thing is that we all have this incredible resilience just from going through our training, let alone the rest of life that we've experienced. But as physicians, we are resilient beyond belief. And so, what we have proven in our life that we've already overcome and that we've already have achieved, can get us to whatever that next phase is of our life that we want. And so, I think that it's important for us to recognize that we can do it, whatever it is that we want to do.

John: Yeah, absolutely. We've got the brain power, for sure. We just need a little help and some of these steps to learn things that we're not really aware of or have been exposed to. Physicians are somewhat resistant to coaching in general. They feel like, "Well, that's like asking for help and I'm not supposed to." It doesn't make any sense really. Companies, big hospitals and insurance companies, they've been using business coaches for years and years and they love it. And it's what helps them progress even quicker in their career transition.

So, that's what physicians need to learn. It's that by getting some coaching or training or online courses, or what have you, in a particular field, you could just accelerate your progress so much more. That's why I love bringing out guests like you that have created something that is really valuable and can answer a problem or solve a problem for physicians. So, I really appreciate you coming on today Cherisa and explaining this and dropping a few pearls along the way. That's always useful.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Thanks so much for having me.

John: I encourage everyone to go and listen to the previous episode, because you really gave a good overview of telemedicine and telehealth at that time. This is just a lot of misconceptions about it, for those that haven't done it before. Again, thanks a lot for that. And I will put these links in the show notes and I wish you the best of luck.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: And can I just add that you are going to be one of my guest speakers? That is exciting too, I'm really happy about that.

John: I'm looking forward to that because I love talking about this stuff and I'm going to try to dispel some myths from my perspective, as well as give the thumbnail of career transition and how I would approach it briefly. But basically, it just echoes what you've already said here today and that you're teaching in your course. So, I think it'll be fun. It'd be great.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow: Well, thanks so much. It was great to see you.

John: All right. You take care. Bye-bye.

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The post Create a Life with Freedom of Time, Place and Means – 266 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today's podcast, Dr. Gretchen Green returns to explain how to be the best expert witness consultant you can be.

Gretchen started working as an expert witness in 2015 and has already worked on well over 100 cases. Doing so enabled her to switch to part-time clinical employment in 2016. Doing that provided more time for her family and financial independence. 

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Getting Started

Gretchen's journey started when her attorney praised her performance when she was sued early in her career. After the lawsuit was over, Gretchen decided to offer her services as an expert witness. It stoked her enthusiasm for critical thinking, and she began working as an expert witness in 2016.

According to Gretchen, the fact that physicians have years of education, training, and clinical experience is what qualifies them as experts. Learning what attorneys need, and how to efficiently review cases, prepare documents, and bill and collect for services are the additional skills needed to get started.

Becoming the Best Expert Witness

Dr. Green developed her first course over two years ago. She is preparing to present the sixth version, with new content based on what she has learned working on well over 100 cases to date. One of her goals in the course is to make her students the best expert witness for their clients.

A course like this provides the framework to know how to communicate with lawyers, how to review cases to complete the work, and ultimately how to approach this as a business. And this is an ideal way to generate extra revenue, allowing physicians to reduce practice hours and improve flexibility and control over their lives.

Dr. Gretchen Green's Advice on Independence and Freedom

…when you take action, when you just get started in something that's new, there's no telling what the tangible and intangible benefits are from it. This may be the thing that re-energizes your clinical career… and it's when you take steps to do some different things… The benefits are really just for yours in the taking…

Summary

Expert witness consulting is an ideal side business for practicing physicians. Because the hourly income is so much higher than that of clinical practice, physicians can work fewer hours, earn more income, and free up personal time for family and other interests. Gretchen has taken her experience with over 100 clients to help you become the best expert witness consultant possible.

You can learn more and enroll in the Expert Witness Startup School by clicking here. By using this link, should you enroll, you will also be invited to join one of the Nonclinical Physicians' Monthly Masterminds, where you will be challenged and held accountable as you build your new consulting business.

[Note: the above is an affiliate link, so I will receive a marketing fee if you purchase using it, but the pricing is exactly the same, and you get MY BONUS ONLY if you use this link.]

This enrollment period ENDS on August 29, 2022, at midnight.

CLICK HERE to CHECK OUT AND ENROLL in the EXPERT WITNESS STARTUP SCHOOL

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Expert Witness Start-up School [affiliate link that includes one year of monthly Nonclinical Mastermind meetings]
• Dr. Gretchen Green's Website
• Top Reasons to Become an Expert Witness Now – 163
• How to Develop a Side Gig as an Expert Witness with Dr. Peter Steinberg – 053
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 262

How to Be the Best Expert Witness Consultant - Interview with Dr. Gretchen Green

John: About five years ago, I started my podcast and at the time it didn't seem like there were many resources for physicians who were looking to transition either part-time to a side gig or full-time out of clinical medicine and do something they could build on their background, but things have certainly changed. And I was talking to a colleague of mine back then. Well, this was really about three years ago saying we need to get a bunch of physicians who are experts in different areas to create resources like coaching programs and courses to teach them how to do some of these nonclinical activities.

And then about two years ago in 2020, I had the pleasure of interviewing on this podcast, Dr. Gretchen Green, because she had a fantastic program for teaching physicians how to do expert witness consulting, which is a really bonafide excellent side gig that allows you to maybe cut back on your clinical hours and do something on the side, have less call perhaps, and earn some income. So, we're going to talk about all those things today. We did, again, talk to her two years ago. We're not going to repeat everything we did then. So, first let me welcome Dr. Gretchen Green. Thanks for being here today.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Thanks so much for having me back.

John: Yeah, I needed to, because things have changed. We've gone through a pandemic and I can't believe that you're going to be opening the sixth iteration of your expert witness startup school soon. It has opened probably by the time this has been released. So, I guess I got to keep that in mind. So, thanks for coming.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yeah. It's great to have this opportunity, especially with so much rapid change during this time. We've got more to talk about and how expert witness work has continued to evolve in what has really been a very traditional field. The law field tends to be very traditional and very stable and very stuck in their ways. And yet even lawyers have shown great abilities to evolve just as we have in medicine.

John: Absolutely. Now give us a little background about how you got into this. We talked about it last time, but there are a lot of new listeners here. So, how is it that you became involved in expert witness consulting and then what prompted you to create the course?

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yeah, that's interesting. You and I had a very similar timeframe about five years ago now. It was in a major pivot point in our lives. I had been in private practice in a large radiology group in North Carolina as a partner for 10 years. And the time value, money, life quality equation was due to change. And so, I made a leap.

I had been sued actually very early in my career. And as part of that, my defense attorney said I did such a great job with my own case that I should consider being an expert witness after the conclusion of the case. And I really thought about it. I thought about how it fueled my fire for critical thinking, really energized a lot of my continued knowledge gathering as a radiologist, and it was a great fit. So, I couldn't do that as part of my previous job. And so, as part of other reasons, I then left and struck out on my own, took a part-time position, started doing expert witness work, really intently 2016 going into 2017.

John: And then somehow people were asking you to tell them what it was like and how to prepare. What was it that got you into the courses?

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yeah. And if you had asked me five years ago, what would I do as an entrepreneur after that point? I could never have predicted the different paths. Initially actually there was a middle point where I got into investing in real estate because I was looking for a way to leverage this side gig income, which three to four hours a week, you can make a $100,000 a year as an expert witness, but then it's very painful paying the highest marginal rate on those taxes. So, I actually got into building real estate and active real estate businesses as part of that.

And one thing led to the next, as part of learning that I got exposed to the digital course creation world. So then in the pandemic, it was March of 2020 when I had lawyers calling me who were part of my 8,000 plus lawyer network that I have asking, "Hey, we finally all have time on our hands. We've got these cases, but we're afraid to call you all because we think you're all saving the world from COVID." And I said, "Whoa, nothing could be further from the truth right now, like this horrible reality is we've got doctors, two thirds of whom are getting pay cuts are furloughed. This is what no one ever thought this Black Swan would look like. So, this is the perfect time to bring these two sides together, to help each other out in ways that maybe other people had never thought possible."

John: Oh, that was perfect. Perfect timing. There's been a lot of entrepreneurs who took advantage of the pandemic in a positive way. They had the time, or maybe they just gotten their appeal of to bike and get better shape, but people did use it productively to some extent. So that's cool. Well, we talked last time about the good things about entering this field, but I guess I wanted to ship because I'll put a link in my show notes to that previous episode, and everyone should listen to it if they're interested in this topic. But also, what I want to talk about today a little bit with you is what are those attributes or skills or things about a physician either that are intrinsic or that they learn to help them be the best expert witness they can be? Because it's not something you can just sort of do without thinking about and planning for.

Dr. Gretchen Green: The most important thing that most doctors have to accept in order to do this work is that the title expert witness you've already earned. That physicians by nature of our years of training, education skills, expertise, and clinical experience, that is what makes you an expert. It's your willingness to put those skills to work a little bit differently in the legal field to evaluate cases objectively and educate lawyers about your opinions. That's what takes some additional skills, but we're really good at doing that. We're really good at going into a new hospital system and figuring out electronic medical records or new clinical practice environments. We constantly adapt in medicine, even as we do a lot of our similar clinical skills.

So having a course like this gives you the structure to understand how to approach communications with lawyers, how to structure, how you review cases to do the work, and ultimately how to look at this also as a business, which is something a lot of doctors now who really want to take control of their finances want to do. And this is a perfect microcosm that helps you build some additional income and yet in a very manageable way that you control.

John: Yeah. I often get questions about in my area, like "If I want to go into hospital management or something, do I have to have a certain personality? Do I need to be an introvert or an extrovert or this or that?" And it's like, no, no. I've met people from all backgrounds, all personalities, they can all be good, medical directors, CMOs. You just have to learn those additional skills. Some of which they're transferable, but just some new skills and some new knowledge about how to do that and play to your strengths and you can do it. I'm assuming it's kind of the same with this.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Absolutely. And a lot of physicians, it's amazing to me, people with so much to give to the world, such a high level of skill and expertise would even be saying, "Is there any use for me in this?" Often people will ask me questions that start with phrases like "I'm just a da-da-da. I'm just an internal medicine doctor." And it's like, "Okay, step back a little bit here and think of the sentence you just said. I'd like you to rewind your life. Your entire life has been for this goal and you've given so much personally, professionally. You're not just anything."

And so, this is one of the great benefits of doing this work is you actually get paid what you're worth. And it's very rewarding. It's very intellectually workable. And every specialty pretty much has the opportunity because as long as there's clinical work happening in that specialty, there is a chance of liability from things that have gone wrong potentially. So, every specialty pretty much has the opportunity for this. And in fact, some of the general specialties, internal medicine, and family just by numbers are the most numerous. So, when you're going from a big denominator, you're going to have more work even than some subspecialty cases, neurosurgery, et cetera.

John: It's funny you say the word "just." I'm "just" this or that. I calculate it. Just primary care physicians have at least 15,000 hours of training, maybe 20,000. And when you get into subspecialties, you're over 20,000. That's enormous. And the attorneys need just this little bit of information out of that whole background that you have. I really have felt that this is the ideal side gig. Like I said, if you can cut your hours back clinically, make your life a little easier, work less hours, earn more and come to make up that difference and free up your life to spend time with your family and do other things.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Exactly. That's exactly my course. And I sort of sketched out goals over time. The 5-year, 10-year, 15-year plans. And I rapidly became busier than I could accommodate using my expert witness work and then with real estate and other things that I went back again on my clinical time. I now work two full clinical days a week and a part day, about three weeks a month. I have a total unicorn job. My group is just the best in the planet with these most amazing people who I get to work with and they value the skills that I bring back to the practice from this work. People have a lot of different opinions about is it good or bad? It's like, are you a good witch or a bad witch for doing this work?

But the fact is that the work needs doing. And so, we may as well have people bringing their best skills and understanding how to objectively review cases so that we can have at least positive impacts in the field. But yeah, it's definitely impacted my time. And so now, especially that expert witness work has become even more virtually based with depositions often being on Zoom, even some trials now, it's been more of an opportunity than ever to work in expert witness time into my own schedule, which has become busier and busier with other things.

John: Okay. Yeah. I want to make sure we spend a minute just talking about what else has changed. Maybe that's the main thing that has changed. The big question people often have as well. "If I'm doing this, how much time do I spend reviewing records?" Which sounds pretty straightforward. "How much time do I have to spend in a deposition? How much time do I have to spend testifying in court?" Which should be a pretty rare event. So, has that changed at all in the last three or four years? And tell us more about the remote situation. Can you do 100% remote almost?

Dr. Gretchen Green: It's almost 100%. Now the practical reality has been that a lot of trials were simply just deferred or canceled over the pandemic as courts were closed. Now we're still facing a backlog. We've still faced some ups and downs with variants that have affected different states and different courts, schedules. So, it's still probably slower from a trial standpoint than it has been in the past. But cases are going to trial. Things are catching up.

And just to give you an idea on the percentages. Per week I may spend a handful of hours doing case review. I've been retained in over 150 cases now over five years and yet it's very manageable and it's definitely less than the percentage of my time that I do my clinical work or other things. And that's important from a state compliance standpoint. You don't want to be doing way more expert witness work than you are in your clinical time. There is a balance that states do want but that's not hard to achieve just from the realities of life.

Depositions now, I'm doing as a pretty much a three-hour block. We schedule those at least 30 days in advance. And with the exception of one that has been hybrid, they've all been virtual. So those are all Zoom and it's done in a very confined timeframe for which I'm prepaid because I have to commit to that scheduled time. And that's an opportunity lost for other work of course

Case review is really as flexible as you want in your own time. I have had a couple cases that went to trial, but one of them, they deposed me in advance using a special deposition technique called it Day Bennet Essay deposition, which is just a formal term for we deposed you on Zoom before the trial and then play that deposition at trial instead of me coming to the testimony.

And then in one, we were due to start trial in about a week, but the plaintiff became critically ill. And so, they canceled the trial because if the plaintiff had died in the midst of trial, that would've resulted in a mistrial because I guess the damages in everything changes with the calculus. But otherwise, it's really been the most manageable now that it's ever been. And it's not going to change. Lawyers love doing... It's love-hate, right? We all hate some things about Zoom, but we love much more that I think we hate. And so, I don't see that they're going to just go back to all in person depositions, and now with trials and the opportunities to work with flexibility with schedules, I see that as a continued benefit.

John: Awesome. Wow. Yeah. I would not have known that unless you had been here explaining that to me today. All right. That's awesome. Okay. I want to stop for a second and give everyone your website. It's theexpertresource.com, correct?

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yes. It's www.theexpertresource.com.

John: And everything that anyone wants to learn about you in terms of what you're doing in your courses and so forth are available there. But we're going to go into a little detail here about the course, and then I have a link that might be a little easier for people if they want to go right to signing up for the course. But let's start. Anything different about the course over the last few years, or just give us a quick overview to cover those things.

Dr. Gretchen Green: One of the new benefits we have, and again, really a pandemic related improvement has been that we have a new opportunity for CME eligibility through a company cmefy.com. This is a group of super creative folks who have really improved the access to CME category one credits for digital courses and other little less traditional educational format products.

So now, this means that this course may be eligible to be paid for by your CME money. If you get that through your employer or your hospital. Even without that, it's still typically tax deductible as a business expense, even if you don't have a whole business LLC setup, which I do address in the course. But even without that, it's typically tax deductible. At any rate, the course pays for itself with your first case that you get retained and pays dividends multiplied when you start billing at the right level from the beginning and don't undervalue your time.

John: Yeah, I would think in just broad strokes that if I were taking a course like this, I'd want to learn just the nuts and bolts of being an expert witness, how do I prepare, how do I review things, how do I interact with attorneys? And then the other half has got to be okay, we want to protect ourselves who like any small business. So, I need to kind of set that up. So how should I set it up as a consultant? I'm assuming what I know is that those are definitely covered in depth in the course.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yes, I have a dedicated module. That's a bonus module for business building. I also have a separate masterclass that's on money and marketing because a lot of doctors need some extra guidance and exposure to other experts who do that. But this is something that's very doable and these skills are very translatable then to doing other projects that you may want to do in your life, or again, just doing expert witness work, but with it being as a business itself.

John: Okay. That's nice because you're right. Anything we do as a side gig, you should have some kind of legal... I hate to just say an LLC, but that's usually what it turns out to be, but some kind of legal structure and understanding how to set things up and how to organize things. So, that's useful in and of itself. But tell me if you can, what the results may have been for some of your students, because you've been doing this long enough. And I haven't heard any kind of feedback on that. I'd love to hear that.

Dr. Gretchen Green: This has been really exciting even though it's only been two years and the average malpractice case can go on for years. I have cases still from 2019. So, three plus years is not unusual for a total lifetime. And even with pandemic delaying so many cases from progressing. I have had students even from the spring course of last year who have completed trials. So, I get to see their pictures in our Facebook group for the expert resource with them, showing themselves in their hotel room, wearing their suit, ready to go to the courthouse. Folks who have been so happy about deposition preparation, who have really felt that they did a great job, became prepared, they were confident.

And probably the most telling are the ones who will message me and just say, "Hey, I can't even tell you how my life has changed having this financially in my life. Having this ability, it has changed my life, being in charge of this and having the opportunity." Again, all this is, is putting your skills to work for money. That's what work is. And it's a great way, a very gratifying way to do it in a way that is needed.

John: Yeah. Your comment about how long cases can take. I've been involved in several malpractices and some were just other things. There are typically five years. There is that long period of time, but there's a lot of need along the way for reviewing things and updating things. And so, I wouldn't be afraid of that. It doesn't really matter to the medical consultant how long it takes. You're there just to provide your expertise, I would imagine.

Boy, if I was younger, I think I'd really look at doing something like this. I was deposed a couple of times and I kind of enjoyed it. You prepare for it and you just answer straightforwardly and you keep your cool, which you should really, you're a professional, so that should be simple. So yeah, I'm glad to hear that you've had great success with the people that have gone through the course and continue to interact with you with the Facebook group and otherwise.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yeah. People will email me, they'll message me. And I think another benefit that we're probably just beginning to see is that physicians who are well versed in the medical malpractice environment may themselves be less likely to get sued. It may also improve the quality of care when they're practicing. Not defensively. Not defensively ordering exams and overdoing, but from truly a proactive sense of better practice of being informed about consensus statements, white papers, really keeping on top of literature and the best thing that this does at the end of the day is it improves patient care. It makes us better doctors.

John: Oh no, that's absolutely true. Nothing would teach a physician how to document better than being deposed. Because they're just looking at your records, let's say as a defendant. Not now as a consultant, but even as an expert witness, you're going to learn these things that the importance of how you document and when you document and everything else that goes into taking care of a patient and how it can impact on a potential lawsuit. It's eye opening. I would say definitely just going through this course would help that whether you ever serve as an expert witness or not.

Dr. Gretchen Green: True, true. And if you were ever yourself sued, even bet that you're going to put all these skills to work and more, and then you are your own benefit of your own expertise as well.

John: All right. That's absolutely true. Okay. Well, I've been lucky enough. I was able to help support you last time and I'm going to do it again this time. Not just through the podcast, but I'll have some links, which I will mention now. So, if my listeners go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/ewcourse, it will bring you directly to a page. It will explain in detail what the course is like and how to sign up. It's not mandatory. You can go and just check it out. So, I will put that link in my show notes, but if you're not looking at the show notes, again, it's nonclinicalphysicians.com/ewcourse. I'll be mentioning it in some of my emails that most of you get.

All right. Well, let's see, Gretchen. Any last-minute comments or advice for physicians who are maybe in general just looking for a way to find more independence and freedom? They could do this, but in general, what's your experience in dealing with physicians that are kind of burned out, looking for other things to do?

Dr. Gretchen Green: I think this comes to your mission where you're providing information about doing things beyond the scope of typical clinical practice in medicine. When you take action, when you just get started in something that's new, there's no telling what the tangible and intangible benefits are from it. This may be the thing that re-energizes your clinical career, or as you've discussed in some recent podcasts about serving on nonprofit boards, the world is full of opportunities outside the clinical office. And it's when you take some steps to do some different things, where really the entry curve it's not a steep learning curve compared to learning how to do cardiothoracic surgery. It's just not as hard as that. The benefits are really just for yours in the making. So, I thank you so much for your support of the course, and I'm really happy that this link will help support your programs as well. And I'm just glad to be part of this community of physicians helping other physicians.

John: Yeah. You've been a real useful part of it for many physicians. We've learned some things today that we can use probably. And if we want to learn more, then we'll have that link and I'll send people to that. And I really look forward to hearing about how the next course goes. And maybe we'll have you again in a year or two and see what has transpired, because I know you're working on some new things. Well, that'll be our tease for the next time.

Dr. Gretchen Green: That's right. Well, thanks so much for having me.

John: It's been my pleasure. Thanks Gretchen. Bye-bye.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Thank you.

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The post How to Be the Best Expert Witness Consultant – 262 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today's podcast, John revisits the Medical Science Liaison, a fantastic pharma job, and a popular nonclinical career.

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We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Duties of an MSL

Typically, an MSL meets with these KOLs, updates them on scientific studies, reports on their conversations to the employer, and attends both remote and in-person meetings.  Depending n the size of the territory covered, travel requirements may be extensive.

This career is attractive because it does not require any special certification. It is open to physicians at all levels of training, with or without board certification. There are ample jobs and the number of positions is growing.

Once employed as an MSL, it is quite possible to make a lateral job change or advance into more senior positions.

Landing the first MSL job can be challenging. And travel away from home for multiple days can sometimes be required.

Keep in mind, that there is a specific manner to go about getting your first job, and it is prescribed and stated in one of the first topics for which I developed a comprehensive course for my nonclinical vocational academy.

A Fantastic Pharma Job

This is such a good option for physicians for several reasons.

• Physicians with all levels of education and experience (licensed, unlicensed, board certified or not) have successfully transitioned.
• No special certification or training is required.
• Successful MSLs can move into other pharma or medical device jobs and advancement opportunities are common.
• The salary is commensurate with a primary care physician's salary and increases as experience and expertise grow.

Summary

Medical Science Liaison is one of the “iconic” nonclinical careers that is ideally suited to physicians looking to work in the Pharmaceutical or Medical Device Industries. It is open to those with or without residency training. Travel demands can be extensive, but can be minimized by selecting positions at larger companies with smaller territories.

The Nonclinical Career Academy hosts a 6-lesson Medical Science Liaison Course. It provides much greater detail on the requirements and preparation for the job. And it will position you to apply for and land your first MSL job. It normally sells for $397. 

As an incentive to sign up NOW, if you use the Coupon Code HALFOFF you will be able to jump in and be on your way to applying for an MSL job soon, at a reduced cost. Learn more at Build a Rewarding, Lucrative Career as a Medical Science Liaison [Remember Coupon Code HALFOFF]. Or click the image below.

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NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Links for Today's Episode:

• MSL Course: Build a Rewarding, Lucrative Career as a Medical Science Liaison (use Coupon Code HALFOFF)
• How to Get Your Fabulous First MSL Job – 126
• How to Network Effectively to Become an MSL – 089
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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 261

Medical Science Liaison Is Still a Fantastic Pharma Job

John: I wanted to revisit one of the most popular nonclinical jobs that physicians tend to pursue - Medical Science Liaison. It's been quite a while since I presented a podcast episode on this topic or had a guest discussing this topic. So, I want to update you on this career option. Let's not waste any time.

Let's start with the definition. An MSL or medical science liaison serves as an educational and feedback link between a pharmaceutical biotechnology or medical device company and healthcare professionals. The reason I put the words "educational" AND "feedback" link in there is because I really want you to distinguish this from a sales position. When we talk about being a liaison or a mediator between let's say the pharma company and a subscriber. Let's just say a prescriber rather. A subscriber is not enough, just subscribing to it, their magazine won't cut it. But being a prescriber, that's important. But if you're selling in your marketing, then you're a salesperson. And MSL does not do any sales. In fact, an MSL is really completely precluded from doing sales and is educational. That's what the role is.

And you, as an MSL, you need to learn this information, get this knowledge and transfer it to the people that you're contacting and reaching out to, which I'll go into more detail in a minute. In fact, some companies will use MSLs to train the sales people on the technical part and the FDA regulated part of promoting the drug or the medical device. But there are companies where they don't even allow an MSL to have conversations with sales because they really want that completely separated.

Given that sort of definition, let's get a little bit into the details of this. So, what does an MSL do? What is an MSL? An MSL in their job has to do five major components of that job. One is they have to learn. They have to learn about the products, or product in some cases, just a single product, that they're going to know inside and out and discuss with the recipients of their education, which again, I'll describe in a minute who those people are.

Number two, they need to connect. So, they need to find these people. They need to probably in most cases develop relationships with let's just say physicians or other prescribers, who they've not known before. That's a big part of it. Connecting, engaging with these people so you can interact with them and help educate them.

And so, that's where the third part comes in, which is teaching and advising them. Once you're connected and you're face to face, you're on a Zoom call or a phone call, or however you're interacting, maybe at a large meeting. Generally, it's going to be in their office or at their workplace. And you have to have the skills and the knowledge necessary to communicate with them in an efficient way and an effective way and get the point across that you're trying to get across. That helps them, helps their patients and at the same time benefits your company, who's producing these products.

And then the other big one though, is listening, because you learn by speaking with these physicians and other prescribers or pharmacists or nurses, and what have you. And you get feedback, you take that in, you digest it, you analyze it and you use it to take back to your company so that they have that kind of feedback and can make adjustments to what they're putting together as educational components or how they're educating or even communicating about the drug in written materials or on computer-based materials, things like that.

And then the last part is to also just inform your company, your supervisor, what you've been doing, how have you been spending your time? What were the outcomes of those things? Do you have any information you can share about the utilization, the adoption of the drugs that you're talking about and educating your contacts about?

Those are kind of the big components of actually what you're doing. Again, you have to learn, you got to connect, you got to educate and teach. You've got to listen and you've got to take that back.

Now how does that happen in a day-to-day basis? What exactly are you doing? Again, without getting into too much detail, a lot of what you're doing is you're meeting face to face. You have time carved out. You've got an appointment with someone who needs this information, who wants this information. They can be going by various types of names, but usually they're called a KOL, which is a key opinion leader. They're a prescriber who's usually a thought leader.

So that's why they're called KOLs, key opinion leaders, because not only are they using these drugs, but they're also perhaps speaking about these drugs or they're telling their contacts or other physicians about these drugs. Or you can imagine someone using a cardiac drug, well, the family doctor might use it. The internist might use it, but then a cardiologist might use it and an anesthesiologist might use it.

And so, your key opinion leader may be a cardiologist who has a very specialized area where this drug works, let's say for physicians that are treating arrhythmias. But the family doctor may also use it, but they may not be a key opinion leader because they're not sharing it with other people. So, you have these influencers, these key opinion leaders, or sometimes just a prescriber for let's say the medication that you're talking about and educating about, especially when they're new, that's when the most activity is occurring.

If you're an MSL, you're going to get the word out about this new drug that treats a new category of patients or treats a new condition or treats it in a better way with fewer side effects, that kind of thing. So, you're meeting with these people, you're sharing the research, you're answering questions. You might be doing just a verbal presentation. You might be handing things out. You might be showing a computer presentation that was put together by either the drug company itself or maybe one of its communication companies.

Then you also have to write reports and follow up to those interactions and visits that you're doing or online calls. And then the other thing you do a lot of, at least probably once a week is attend meetings and activities back at the home office, wherever you're based out of or the company that you're working for. That's kind of what the job entails. If you read between the lines, you kind of got the idea that it entails some travel, which I'm going to talk about in a minute.

What are the basic skill sets? Well, you can base on what I've already described. It's pretty much what you would think. So, the basic core as you have to have a scientific background. An MSL position is one unlike others that are not strictly for physicians. In fact, physicians are probably a smaller percentage of MSLs at most companies. I might say anywhere from 10% to 20%, if that, depending on the size of the company and how much resources they have, how big the drug is, and how sophisticated its use is because in that case, you really want to get people with the most experience and most background. Rather than having, let's say a master's level person, some sort of scientist who's got a master's, it could be an MSL.

But if you have a more complex drug and need that real background, then you're going to need a Pharm.D, a PhD or an MD or equivalent. That could be MD, DO even MBBS and so forth. And it's really that degree in that understanding of pharmacology and pharmacy and medication use and all those things that go into that that's important. It's not necessarily the clinical use, although that can be important. And I'll explain that in a minute. But the basic minimum is that you have a scientific background.

Then what are the other skills you need? You need to be engaging. You need to have good verbal skills. You might say you need to have charisma, maybe have a little background in sales, maybe from before you went into medical school. Although again, this is not a sales type position, but you need to be able to get in, communicate quickly, build rapport and confidence by the people that you're talking to. That you're not just memorizing and spewing things out, but you have a real understanding and you know how to communicate it well.

And that's true, whether you're working in front of a group or individually, or even in your writing. So, you need good presentation skills, need good writing skills, because you're going to probably be writing materials that you might be giving to your KOLs and influencers and in addition to what's produced by the company, but then you also have to report back to the company.

The other thing that you need, the way I put it is you need to be organized and disciplined because there's a lot of flexibility in this job. Others have said that this is something that's called self-management. Typically, you are going to have control over the hours you spend doing this, when you do it, where you do it, how you travel, when you travel, when you set time aside to do your paperwork, do your reports, do your expenses, expense reports. You have to keep track of this because you're not normally sitting in an office 09:00 to 05:00 where you have either direct help or direct supervision. And also, that means you also have to be sure that you're getting back to your employer with the appropriate reports done in a timely fashion or you're going to end up falling behind.

And then you have to have a collaborative mindset. You are working on a team, even though for most of the let's say weekly schedule you're working independently and interacting with people outside the company, you are on a team, you're in the medical affairs department, usually of a pharma or medical device company or you're working for a CRO. But you are part of a team. You might be teaching about one or two or three drugs. Maybe there's a lot of drugs in this therapeutic class. And so, you have others addressing the other drugs in the class. You get together, you share information, then you share feedback. Again, you need to have that collaborative mindset because you are working on a team.

And then the last skillset you could have, that you might not have, that I mentioned earlier, but it can be a bonus. I'll explain how and why. You could already have before you joined as an MSL for your first job, maybe you were in practice and you actually have a panel of key opinion leaders or influencers that you already interact with. Maybe the people you refer for your patients to.

Let's say you're an internist and you have got a lot of patients with heart failure, but you also refer patients to the cardiologists for the end stage heart failure who have a little more knowledge of the drugs that you're using. And so, now you're sort of an expert, could be a cardiologist or could be an internist either way, but now you have an expertise. And when you go to get your first job as an MSL, you might go to a company that has those drugs, which you've been using and in which you're a bit of an expert in, and in which you have a network of other people that you know that use those medications. And so, when you're hired as an MSL for that company, you're actually bringing them your panel of KOLs.

And a couple of good things are going to happen. You're going to make more money in that situation. Most likely they're going to pay you more. If you can find that job, you have to line up with the company that's got the right drugs in the area where you live. Otherwise, you're going to lose that panel. So, you get paid better. And also, your territory tends to be a little smaller, because you're not typically going to have relationships with people that are in another state unless you are the KOL. If you're the physician that's been doing presentations and sort of sharing your knowledge of this drug with someone who's a colleague, well, when you become the MSL, now you can share it with them as one of your key opinion leaders or influencers. So, that can be very useful. That's not applicable to those who never worked clinically. But I do bring up that group as well because this job is open to people that have the MD and don't have any clinical background per se, or never cared for patients beyond in medical school.

Okay. I've tried to give you a lot of information about why an MSL job is such a good one and it's very popular. Again, no special training is required. I will say that there is such a thing as board certification as an MSL, but you have to have at least a year of experience doing this job. I suspect many have had more than one year of experience, but you can't do that before you get your first job or have never worked as an MSL. So, it is still open to a large group of people in multiple disciplines, multiple specialties, and even those that aren't physicians, but we're focusing of course, on the physician component.

Salary is competitive. I've seen entry level $140,000 plus or minus, depending on the state location, drugs that are being used. Now, that's for all MSLs. The physician MSL tends to make $10,000 or $20,000 per year to start more than that. And the average MSL who's been working for a while as close can easily get over $200,000. Again, if you're a physician and you've been doing this for a while, you can easily replace your clinical income.

There seemed to be an apple number of jobs. It's competitive, but it's expected to add another 10,000 of these jobs over the next 10 years or so. There's the flexibility. It's an entry into pharma in general. So, you could move later into other jobs as an MSL. You could be a regional, you could be a MSL manager. You could go and become a medical director in medical affairs potentially, or pharmacovigilance, or other parts of a pharma company or medical device company. And so, there is room for advancement for sure. And it also has all the usual benefits of not being in clinical medicine. No liability, not getting phone calls. You're not on call on the weekends. You get a 401(k) and sick dates, vacation. So, it's less stressful than clinical practice for sure.

What are the challenges with becoming an MSL? Well, there's no school you can go to that tells you what to do to be an MSL. Everyone's in there competing for those jobs. So, it can be competitive. The first job is always the most difficult. Once you get past that, then it's a lot smoother sailing. And then the other big one that people talk about is the travel that's required. Now, if you're someone who doesn't have any clinical experience and you're really competing for that first MSL job, you're probably going to be more likely to work for a smaller company, which tends to have bigger territories. Instead of a territory being one county or one major city, it might be three states. And sometimes it's not even states that are contiguous. And so, that could be a lot of travel.

If you're more experienced as a physician and maybe you've got your own panel, well, now you're going to have a narrower area. If you work for bigger companies in the large metropolitan areas, you can get and really try and focus on the different territories and be careful. Then you can sometimes be in a territory where you're really driving to all your meetings that aren't virtual meetings and you might have a territory where you're home every night. Otherwise, you might be flying and be gone two or three days at a time as you're hitting multiple influencers in an area that's not adjacent to where you're residing. But keep that in mind when you're applying for these jobs. Try to have multiple options, then you can try and leverage the ones that are closer to you and that are again bigger companies, smaller territories and more dense territories so you can see people with less distant travel.

That's basically what I wanted to tell you about MSLs today. It's really just an introduction. It's just a reminder that this is a great job. I've been following this since I started my podcast more than five years ago. I've interviewed multiple MSLs and addition of talk to many more that I didn't interview. And so, I really think it's a career that leverages your medical background and in your experience. So that's good. It builds on your clinical background if you have that. It pays well, it does not require additional certification. It offers opportunities for advancement, and I don't see how you can beat it if nothing else is obvious.

Now, if you're working in a hospital already, we often talk about going into hospital management. But if you've been out there working on your own in a clinic or something, and you don't have any obvious nonclinical jobs to step into and that's what you're looking to do, well, MSL and pharma, which is massive number of jobs for physicians in general is a great option.

But just remember that the first job is the most difficult to get. And actually, that's why this is one of the first areas that I created a complete course for my Nonclinical Career Academy. It's outlined in there that there's a certain way to go about getting that first job. And so, in my course, the six lectures go into much more detail about how to land your first MSL job, where to find the resources to learn what you need to learn so you can interview well, you can create your resume well, and set yourself up for success.

I've had that course on there for a couple of years now. The current price is $397, but as an incentive to sign up now, if you use the coupon code "HALFOFF", [H-A-L-F-O-F-F] as a way to try to get you to think about and pursue this job. Now, again, put the coupon code "HALFOFF" and you're going to purchase the course and you'll have this 50% discount.

And if you start in the next week or so, you'll be able to actually apply for your first job within a few months or so. You've just got to focus and learn everything you can and then put your resumé and prepare for your interviews and start looking for jobs. And you can find that course at nonclinicalphysicians.com/mslcourse. That's my Nonclinical Career Academy, medical science liaison course at nonclinicalphysicians.com/mslcourseThat's it today Nonclinical Nation. I want to give that update on one of the most popular nonclinical full-time, well-paying jobs for physicians. And with that, we'll end today's presentation.

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