coaching Archives - NonClinical Physicians

Why Build Your Own Rewarding CME and CE Writing Business?

John Jurica — Tue, 19 Dec 2023 12:30:59 +0000

Interview with Dr. Alexandra Howson – Episode 331

In today's episode, John's guest Dr. Alexandra Howson will explain why you should consider building a nonclinical CME and CE writing business.

During this interview, Dr. Alexandra Howson provides practical steps to leverage your medical background, apply adult education principles, and tap into the multi-billion dollar industry of continuing medical education.

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The Journey to CME Writing

In this engaging conversation, John explores Dr. Alexandra Howson's fascinating transition from a trauma operating room nurse to a seasoned academician in Scotland and her subsequent leap into the world of medical writing. Dr. Howson shares her experiences, challenges, and the pivotal moments that led her to focus on continuing medical education (CME) as a thriving career choice.

Building a Writing Career

Alex sheds light on the intricacies of the CME world, emphasizing the importance of foundational skills, adult learning principles, and the dynamic nature of the field. The discussion delves into the pros and cons of pursuing a career in CME writing. And she offers valuable insights for clinicians considering a transition. Additionally, Dr. Howson provides practical advice on freelancing, building a sustainable business, and the rewards of networking within the CME community.

Summary

Connect with Dr. Alexandra Howson by visiting her official website for insightful blog posts, podcasts, and free guides on CME writing. Engage with her on LinkedIn for ongoing discussions and professional updates. Explore her Write Medicine podcast on platforms like Apple Podcasts or Spotify, delving into best practices and trends in CME. Consider joining her Write CME Pro membership for comprehensive coaching and professional development, or explore the University of Chicago Medical Writing Certificate Program for further credentials in the field.

For those interested in in-depth coaching and professional development in CME writing, consider exploring Dr. Howson's Write CME Pro membership. Details about the membership, including benefits and upcoming sessions, can be found on her official website.

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 331

Why Build Your Own Rewarding CME and CE Writing Business?

- Interview with Dr. Alexandra Howson

John: I've spent a lot of time promoting continuing education over the years. In fact, I did probably over a hundred surveys for the ACCME and I just think it's always been something that I wanted to promote for my colleagues and when I was working in the hospital setting and so forth.

That's one reason why I am really anxious to talk to today's guest. The other is I love medical writing. I've had some other guests that talked about medical writing in the past. And when I recently discovered today's guest as being a CME and CE writer who also trains people to be medical writers, specifically in these areas, I just knew I had to have her here today. I think you'll really appreciate today's interview. So, hello and welcome, Dr. Alexandra Howson. I'm glad to have you here.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: I'm really happy to be here, John. Thank you for inviting me.

John: And I didn't mention, but it'll come up later. The fact that you're another podcaster of course also means that we have this kind of connection. This is going to be a lot of fun. I really want to pick your brain a lot because what I do is try to really find opportunities for listeners to pursue certain nonclinical, nontraditional careers. And this is one excellent one.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: It really is.

John: So, it's going to be fun. All right. To start off, I need you to give us a little bit about your background, education, clinical career, and maybe even why you left clinical activities.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Oh, yeah, sure. Absolutely. I trained as a nurse about a hundred years ago in Scotland and worked as a trauma nurse in a regional trauma center for several years. As your listeners will know trauma is fast paced, it's pretty challenging. The turnaround times can be excruciating. And at some point I started toying with the idea of moving out of healthcare because I wasn't burned out. That's a very particular term, but I definitely felt frazzled and wasn't really sure what my long-term future in healthcare was going to look like. I really wanted the opportunity to do a deeper dive into medicine, health, and healing.

I trained as a nurse at a time in Scotland in the 1980s just before university programs for nurses were launched. I was still in the hospital-college system, so I didn't have a degree, and I really wanted the opportunity to do some academic work. And so, I had an opportunity to go to the University of Edinburgh to do an undergraduate degree in the late 1980s. I loved learning or writing and doing research, and so I stayed in academia for another 10 to 15 years hunkered down. I did a master's and a PhD and ended up teaching and doing research at University of Edinburgh and University of Aberdeen.

But I've stayed very much in the world of healthcare. Teaching courses on sociology of health and illness, medical sociology, doing research on public health and women's health, and teaching medical students in the context of health communication and public health courses that they did at the University of Edinburgh, University of Aberdeen.

John: Okay. That was definitely a right turn into academics. That was a big undertaking. But then it sets you up really well for being a writer and for teaching writing and that kind of thing. When did you really get into that aspect? Once you had become an academician, you were working at University. Just tell us more about that transition.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yeah, more of a push than a pull in a sense. As an academic and as a nurse, actually, I had been writing a little bit. And as an academic, of course, you're writing, you're publishing. I'd written books and research papers and that kind of thing. But my family moved from Scotland to the US in 2004, just toward the end of 2004.

And I looked for an academic job and I couldn't get one. That was the push part. In retrospect, I think this might have a bearing on some of the things that your audience experience. I think there were two things. One is I didn't really have an academic network in the US. I was at Berkeley for a year as a research scholar, but I didn't really build my network when we moved to the states.

The second thing is my heart wasn't in it. Academia in the UK in the 1990s got very research funding focused, and I wasn't really sure that I wanted to be in that mix, and I didn't really know what academia in the US looked like. I think there were kind of two things there that meant my search was half-hearted, to say the least.

Things really shifted for me when I stopped looking for jobs and started looking for work. I took a big step back in 2005, 2006, and started to look at what my skillset was and really that centered around of trifecta of research writing and teaching. And so, I started to look for work that would allow me to do those things.

And in that process, I found the American Medical Writers Association, which is a fantastic resource for anybody who's thinking about moving out of clinical practice into the medical writing world, which is a very vast world. I discovered that pretty quickly. There's regulatory, there's marketing copy, there's consumer health, patient education, and I found continuing medical education. I did a workshop at an annual conference probably around 2007 and knew at that point I'd found my sweet spot because CME and continuing education for health professionals requires research, writing. And as a writer, if I'm not doing the teaching, at least I have to understand what adult learning looks like and how to write in a way that promotes adult learning.

John: Yeah. And we all need to be continuing our education, but on top of that, we all are required to continue our education. So, there's a big demand there ongoing.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: There is. There absolutely is. And that's actually one of the things that makes CME such an attractive proposition for clinicians who are looking to move into medical writing because it's a multi-billion dollar industry apart from anything else. It's not going away anytime soon because of that mandatory requirement. And there is some interesting and creative things going on in accredited CME that aren't really permitted on the promotional side of education. It's kind of an interesting field in that respect.

John: Now, as someone who helps others become writers of CME and CE, stepping back from your own reasons for getting into it, what are the pros and cons of if someone's considering this? Because there are certain requirements you have to meet, but I think it maybe needs a certain type of personality. I don't know. What are your thoughts on the pros and cons of pursuing this type of career?

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I think CME is a really good place for people who see themselves as lifelong learners as information synthesizers and as problem solvers. Because you're doing all of those things all of the time in CME as a writer. You do, of course, have to be able to write and have the basics of writing down. If you are somebody who enjoys writing, but haven't had a lot of opportunity to do that in clinical practice, the American Medical Writers Association has some great workshops where you can polish your skills and even get certification for basic skills like grammar and punctuation and those kinds of things. And those are things that we can forget when we're writing consistently. It's definitely something to consider.

Writing is kind of a foundational skill. Having an understanding of adult learning, which of course, as a clinician because of mandatory CME, you know the drill. Now, I think that if you're a clinician, you probably also have participated in some pretty bad education activities. But that all feeds into the mix in the sense of you know what's worked for you as a clinician and what has allowed you to put something into practice in your own clinical setting. I think that's something to carry with you into the continuing medical education world if you're thinking about that as a possibility.

Being able to do the research and synthesize that information pretty quickly is a key skill. CME is fast-paced, and it's only getting faster because there's been a lot of private equity acquisition of continuing medical education companies with a different set, a different value set there in terms of turnaround times and that kind of thing. If you're a writer, you have to work pretty quickly in terms of finding out what the key data and research publications are, pulling that information together quickly. And also offering some synthesis and insight into what the kind of key findings are, and presenting that in a way for learners that is accessible and interesting and has applicability.

John: A couple things I guess I would comment on. Physicians and PhDs, we're doctors of all sorts like yourself. We've learned to sort of budget our time and keep our promises, but I feel like the medical writer in many cases has to be extremely self-disciplined. There's a schedule. Things are due, there are deadlines. And if you're working freelance, which I need to ask you that question too. Are most people freelance? Are most working for someone directly? You can maybe address both of those observations and questions.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yeah, absolutely. CME is actually one of the areas in medical writing, sort of under the medical writing umbrella in general, where there's a high rate of freelance work in comparison to something like regulatory, for instance, where that's very employment based. That's certainly a pro. If you are interested in the flexibility and freedom that can come with freelance work, you have to work at that in order to establish that flexibility for yourself. And I would say that in order to ensure that flexibility and freedom, the flip side of that is discipline as you suggest. You do have to think about how you're going to build your business as a freelance medical writer, whether it's in CME or not.

And I think this is certainly one of the areas for me where I experienced a kind of light bulb moment. I stopped thinking of myself as a freelancer and started thinking of myself as a freelance business owner. And then you start to get really serious about how you are going to build and sustain that business. Because you have to think about not only income, but revenue. You have to think about the bigger picture in terms of what you're bringing into the business, what you need to sustain the business, what you're going to pay yourself, how much you're going to use of your revenue to market, and what kind of marketing you're going to do, and what kind of long-term vision you have for the business you're building.

There's a lot of things to think about for sure. You can also not enter into that sort of business mindset and stay a little bit looser in that sort of freelance mindset. But I do know that things changed for me when I shifted into a kind of more business ownership type of mindset. Discipline is a huge part of not only building your business, but also keeping your promises. I like that phrase, to your clients, because you're going to be juggling more than one client at a time. And so, that scheduling can fall apart like a deck of cards. You have to kind of keep your finger on the pulse of all your different projects, when those timelines are due, the different tasks associated with those projects and the order you're going to do them in and those sorts of things.

John: Now, one of the things that's come up when I've spoken with other medical writers doing other things, let's say, other than the technical as you mentioned, is that at the beginning it seemed overwhelming. It's like you're looking for these people to work for as a freelancer, maybe doing journalistic or things aimed at the public, which is different from CME, which again, has those demands that you mentioned.

But what I've heard is that they find out, no, once you have an in and you have relationships with 2, 3, 4, it's recurring usually if you're doing a good job. And is that similar in the CME world?

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Repeat business is definitely the way to go. I think the first point that you mentioned there around relationships is key. CME is a very small world. It's pretty subterranean. It can be hard to find. I think it's a little different for physicians because obviously they have experience of doing CME. But it can still be tricky to find out who are the key players in the CME world. Fortunately, ACCME, the Accreditation Council for Continuing Medical Education makes that easy for us because it produces a quarterly list of every accredited provider. Well, you've done a lot of survey work for ACCME, so you know this. Every accredited provider in North America actually, and some in Europe as well. The European scene is very different. It's changing. It's always in flux.

And so, you can actually use that list as a starting point to think about a few things. First of all, the category of medical education provider you might be interested in working with. That could be medical societies like the American College of Cardiology, or it could be medical education companies. Medscape is a medical education company. And there are several other categories of providers.

That list also has the contact details for key people who are responsible for CME in those organizations. The list itself isn't kind of categorized. I actually have a categorized list that I share with my membership, but it's a good place to start. And there are some other places where you can find that information as well.

And to go back to your point about relationship building, you can use that as a way to take baby steps toward building relationships using LinkedIn. I know that you've talked about LinkedIn before on your podcast many, many times. It's a great resource for physicians thinking about this type of career move because not only do medical writers hang out on LinkedIn as their main social media platform, but also education providers as well. And there's a CME group on LinkedIn, which has about 13,000 members.

There are a lot of resources there to tap. Building relationships is a long game and it can often take six months to two years from that first contact point to securing a contract. But it's definitely a valuable marketplace to participate in and be visible in. And I think most importantly, engage with other people in the field.

John: Well, the nice thing about medical writing is that you can start doing it while you're still working clinically, or whatever you might've been doing before deciding to pursue this. So that's good. And you can do some of the things you've already mentioned.

Any other things for the fledgling writer, especially in CME or CE of other steps they can take? You've talked about networking, you've talked about accessing the ACCME list. Any other thoughts?

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Well, I think one of the key things I mentioned earlier is that it's a bit of a subterranean world. I think one of the key things is really to try and familiarize yourself with the landscape. Obviously physicians have an advantage. They know what CME is and why it's important, but getting a sense of who the kind of key players are, and what some of the key challenges and ongoing debates in the field are can also be helpful.

The alliance for continuing education in the health professions is the key organization to consider joining and participating in, to get that sense of what the field looks like. In comparison to some other memberships, the price point can be a little high, but they've just introduced a new to the field type of membership. I would recommend taking advantage of that and getting involved with that organization. That's certainly one thing to do. So, familiarizing yourself with the field.

The other thing is, there are ways to apprise yourself of key adult learning principles so that at least you have a kind of working knowledge of the basic foundation for CME. Adults like to learn at their own pace. They need access to information and education that is meaningful to their immediate clinical context. They want to be able to put things into practice right away. These kinds of things.

I think the other thing to think about is that writing isn't the only potential role for physicians as a nonclinical career. In CME you could think about being a clinical director, scientific director, medical director, so that you might do some writing as part of that role, but also be managing other writers to help create needs assessments, content for education activities and outcomes reports, which is the end result of all this education that we participate in and contribute to. And there are other roles like education strategy, business development, if you're interested in sales. There are a number of different things that physicians can do in CME.

John: One of the things I wanted to mention too, before I forget, is that for those who are listening or watching that aren't physicians, there are many non-physicians that write CME. So don't even directed at physicians for their requirements. I do some editing and I think half of the writers of the material I'm editing for physicians are written by non-physicians. Just like someone like you, master's, PhD, nurse, APN, PA, they just have the expertise and they have that mindset.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Absolutely. And I think one of the things we've seen over the last few years is a growth in the movement of academics, researchers, nurses, pharmacists, radiographers, radiologists. A whole bunch of vets as well. Veterans.

John: I saw that on your podcast.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yes.

John: Did you interview a vet?

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yeah, this morning actually we just released a podcast with a vet. So there are a lot of different types of clinicians who are moving into CME or trying to move into CME because they see it as a nourishing type of field to be working in.

John: Yeah. It is. It is. Well, we did mention that podcast so I want to hear more about the podcast. Why don't we segue to that now? Tell me how you started there, why you started the podcast, and what is the content that you're covering for the most part? Obviously probably about writing CME.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yeah. Like a lot of podcasts, the podcast has evolved a little bit. We are just coming to the end of our third year. I started the podcast in 2020, mainly as a way to actually keep in contact with my peers and colleagues in CME. And that has evolved into a couple of things. One is celebrating and elevating the work of the people who create education that supports health professionals.

And the second thing is to really use the podcast to explore best practices in creating that content. We focus on adult learning, we focus on formats. We focus on healthcare trends that influence the type of content that we create and a number of other things as well.

And I guess the third thing, there's three things. Every good thing comes in threes. It's to use the podcast as a place to share resources and support for people who are working in this field, because it's fast-paced. It's actually quite challenging to have access to practical resources to help you kind of do your daily work.

John: Yeah. And it's called Write Medicine. Is that correct?

Dr. Alexandra Howson: It's called Write Medicine. And we do talk about writing as well. We talk about things like storytelling. What that means in a clinical education context, we had Jay Baruch, who's an ER physician in Rhode Island. I think he published a book called Tornado of Life earlier this year. So, that episode really focused on patient stories and the significance of patient stories for clinical care and your own practice as a clinician. But also using writing as a way to work through your own clinical practice challenges. We talk about storytelling on the podcast as well as other things that contribute to creating content.

John: Very good. And I was going to thank you before a minute ago when you mentioned the Alliance, because I've had many medical writers. I've never actually had anyone mention, we've never discussed the Alliance before. And so, I'm glad you brought that up because that is an awesome resource.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: It is, absolutely.

John: Now another great resource is you because I know that you have some courses on your website. alexHowson.com is your overall website for what you do.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Correct.

John: But there's some really pretty interesting resources there. And I think this is one of the reasons why I started the podcast too, is because we're looking for these resources they didn't exist. And over time I've been able to make these connections with people like you that are creating things that if only more people knew about them. Tell us a little bit more about those things that you do.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Sure. Absolutely. And first of all, yeah, I think you're right. I know that we've been talking about the creator economy for a couple of years now, but we're moving into an educator creator economy where people are not getting access to the support and information that they need to do their work. I think that's an interesting shift. I have a free guide, Write CME Roadmap, which provides information for people who are thinking about moving into CME. It's an eBook with a private podcast attached to it so you can listen on the go.

John: Nice.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yeah. You can listen on the go. You don't have to be tied to your laptop or your computer to read an eBook. And that the guide really takes you through some of the things that we've talked about today. And it's the first stepping stone if you're really not that familiar with CME. The podcast itself, of course, I see it as a resource.

I write a blog. There are a lot of articles on my blog around how to start thinking about building a portfolio. What are some of the key things that you need to be thinking about in terms of identifying your own skills if you're thinking of moving into CME. There are a lot of resources in the blog as well. And I run coaching programs and professional development membership, Write CME Pro, for people who are looking to build and grow their business into a sustainable business in CME.

John: Okay. I was curious about that. The Write CME Pro. That has more looking at the business aspects of it, the marketing or even the formation like forming an LLC or not forming an LLC. Those kind of conversations.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yeah. Actually we'll be doing more of that going into 2024 with the current cohort, but Write CME Pro does a number of things. First of all, we pull in experts from the CME world every couple of months or so to talk about things like accreditation which as a writer, you don't necessarily need to know all the ins and outs, but you do need to understand the significance of accreditation in the CME world. One of the things that I find, maybe you find this too, is that people can get very confused between accredited continuing education and promotional education and conflate the few. And it's important to separate those.

We have experts who come into the membership and share their perspectives on a whole bunch of different things including marketing and things to think about when you're building your business. We've just completed a series on that with Lori De Milto and Genevieve Walker who are experts in these fields and also our colleagues who teach along with me on the University of Chicago Medical Writing Professional Certificate Program.

John: Tell me about that certificate because people ask me all the time. Is there something I can do? Should I get a master's degree in writing or something? Or should I get a certificate from some organization? That sounds a little bit like something like that.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yeah. Their certificate program, it's the medical writing and editing certificate program at the University of Chicago. It used to be part of the Graham school. It's part of their business and professional development portfolio. There are core and elective modules in that program. Things like regulatory writing, clinical trials, publications. I teach ethics, medical writing and editing ethics, marketing and building a freelance business. There's a couple of other modules on the program as well.

And we do find a lot of health professionals are taking this program precisely for that reason. They are looking for a way to solidify and credentialize that shift from clinical practice into medical writing.

John: Okay. Now I have to apologize for that digression because I still had questions about Write CME Pro. That sounds very interesting with other experts and yourself involved. Is this something that's live, ongoing? Is it like group coaching? Is it recorded?

Dr. Alexandra Howson: Yes, yes. Every quarter we'll have an expert perspective. Every month we have group coaching, so we'll focus on practical things and do sprints. For instance, this year we've done sprints on writing outcomes reports, developing patient cases and writing test questions, which is an area of premium skill that is very challenging to learn. We bring in experts for that. Yeah, we have group coaching. We have replays, obviously, for people who can't make live sessions. We do the coaching live online. I'm actually shifting that to a private podcast. I'm all about private podcasts in 2024 because we're all busy. And being able to listen and learn on the move can be really helpful.

There are a lot of resources that we build up in Write CME Pro that are exclusive to members. Yeah, it's ongoing. In 2024 we'll be focusing a little more on things like building your business. Once you get going and you have a few clients, what do you need to start thinking about in terms of systems and in terms of a tech stack? And those sorts of things.

John: Okay. That helps a lot because you don't have one cohort that goes together for six months or a year. It sounds like its set up as a membership. People can just keep coming and they can drop off, of course, but as long as they're getting value, they just keep coming back and participating and you keep adding and growing the content.

Dr. Alexandra Howson: It is an ongoing professional development membership. We will be starting a cohort-based coaching program in the spring called CMEpreneur. It'll be a shorter program to get people sort of up and running. That they have all the tools in place they need to break into CME and build their business.

John: All right. Again, where do we go to find all that? That's all under your website, right?

Dr. Alexandra Howson: All the information that we've been talking about today is on alexhowson.com, the podcast, the blog. You can also find me on LinkedIn. I encourage you to connect with me on LinkedIn. I love to have conversations with people. I spend quite a bit of time on LinkedIn every day. So, I'd love it if you could connect with me there.

John: Excellent.

Dr. Alexandra Howsen: Yeah, that's the main place.

John: All right. Well, that has been very useful and exciting to me to hear everything because I didn't even know about you six months ago. So now here I am, I got a podcast to listen to and all this stuff to learn about and share with my listeners.

This has been really fun. We're a little over our time, but any last words of encouragement for people out there, physicians and non-physicians, other clinicians who are thinking, "Eh, maybe I need to do something besides clinical in terms of looking at writing educational educationally?"

Dr. Alexandra Howsen: Yes. You have what you need to move into CME. One of the things I see again and again is heavy duty smart people coming from clinical settings and healthcare and moving out of that professional context into medical writing. And almost instantly losing a sense of identity and competence. But you have those things. Make connections, network with your peers, join some kind of group. Know that you already have the skills that you need in order to be a successful writer in the continuing medical education world.

John: Well, thanks for those inspiring words and I really appreciate you for being here today, Alex. It's been a lot of fun. I've learned a lot. Thanks a lot for being a guest on the podcast.

Dr. Alexandra Howsen: I really enjoyed it, John. Thanks a lot for inviting me. I appreciate it.

John: You're welcome. All right. Bye-Bye

Dr. Alexandra Howsen: Bye-Bye.

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What’s New in My World and Is Coaching Worth the Expense?

John Jurica — Tue, 21 Nov 2023 14:39:17 +0000

What's New and the Cost of Coaching – Episode 327

In today's episode, John shares what's new, and explores the cost-benefit considerations of career coaching. This topic was triggered by a podcast listener's question. It is a common concern of those seeking a major career pivot, and are considering whether to hire a coach to help them navigate the process.

He guides listeners on how to discern the right type of coach, considering multiple factors, including the cost. Before getting into that topic, he also provides an update regarding what's new with NewScript, the Nonclinical Career Academy, and former podcast guests.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Understanding the Value of Expertise in Coaching

John explains his perspective on using a coach to accelerate one's professional advancement. He challenges the perception that coaching should be priced solely based on the hours spent, asserting that it's about the value derived from the coach's expertise. He explains the importance of coaches committing to tangible results, drawing parallels to his experience as a CMO where outcomes were paramount.

Choosing the Right Coach for Your Goals

John discusses the importance of selecting a coach aligned with your objectives, emphasizing that experienced coaches, despite their higher fees, offer valuable expertise. He touches upon the price range, mentioning that fees can vary, from a few thousand dollars for shorter sessions to potentially higher amounts for longer-term coaching. He advises prospective clients to carefully assess a coach's approach and seek references before making a decision.

Summary

The best coaches are well-trained, with years of practical experience. Many have expertise in specific industries and serve as mentors and consultants. The cost of hiring a coach can be significant. But in most cases, those costs are justified by the improved lifestyles, career advancement, and higher salaries the clients achieve as a result of their coaching.

As explained during the episode, Dr. Debra Blaine has recently released her 4th novel. It is called The Meriki Effect and can be found at most large bookstores and here on Amazon (this is an Amazon affiliate link).

And Dr. Andrew Wilner is releasing the 100th episode of his popular podcast called The Art of Medicine on December 10th. It is an eclectic collection of interviews that will entertain and educate listeners like you. It can be found on all major podcast channels, including iTunes, Buzzsprout, and The Art of Medicine on YouTube.

And if you'd like to listen to Dr. Wilner's interview with Dr. Blaine from three years ago, that can be found RIGHT HERE on YouTube.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 327

What's New in My World and Is Coaching Worth the Expense?

John: Okay, before I get into the actual topic for today, I'm going to tell you a little story, which obviously will relate to the question. There was a time in Russia when all religions were basically banned. Churches were closed. There were no gatherings allowed to pray, and they were being persecuted. It doesn't mean that all the activities stopped, of course, because you can't really keep people from worshiping if that's what they've been taught and what they grew up doing.

But anyway, after a while, things did loosen up and the brave believers could go back to church. There was a priest in a very small town who began to spend time every day in his church. And the mayor or magistrate of that town didn't like it. He was still against having those kinds of gatherings and allowing people to do that. He sent a soldier to stand at the front of the church every day at the front, at the door to intimidate the priest when he would go over there. When he tried to enter the church, the soldier was to demand the answer to questions. The questions were the following. Number one was, who are you? And the other was, why are you here? And so then the priest would have to take a moment and quietly and without being too aggressive, answer the questions. And then the soldier would begrudgingly let him in.

This went on every day. The priest was going every day. The soldier was there every day, rain or shine, snow, whatever. And week after week and month after month, this soldier would ask, "Who are you and why are you here?" And the priest would adjust his answers over time as he had more time to try and come up with answers. But finally things really loosened up. And the soldier informed the priest that day would be his last day because he was being reassigned and being no longer a soldier at the door.

The priest looked at him and he said, "Sir, when you finish your career as a soldier, I'd like you to come back here and resume your duties. Because you have no idea how much you've helped me by forcing me to answer those two questions each day for myself, who am I and why am I here?"

I like that story. And honestly, I heard that story from a bishop who was residing over a Catholic mass in Lourdes, France. You can imagine that the setting was kind of interesting, and I won't go into too much, but I had never heard that story before. And so, it has stuck with me.

But it relates to coaches, because for some coaching, that's kind of the crux of their coaching. "Why am I here? Who am I? What do I stand for? Who am I? Why am I here? What are my goals? What are my plans?" Things like that.

The question that I was asked earlier this week was pretty straightforward. Basically, described what he wanted, what his situation was, why he was looking to find a new career. And he had contacted several coaches with the information and had told him what he wanted, what he needed.

And one of the coaches said, "Well, she was going to provide three hours of coaching, split up three separate hours, and it was going to address the three issues that he really had asked her to address." And she was going to charge somewhere between $2,000 and $3,000 to do that. And so, the follower or the listener from the podcast that emailed me said that to him that sounded kind of "steep", it sounded kind of expensive particularly since it was going to be limited to three hours. Maybe he did the math, I don't know, but he was maybe expecting a lower number. I provided my answer, and what I'm going to do now is sort of doing an extended version of the answer that I provided to him.

Thinking about my answer to this and this issue, brings up another story, actually. We can call it a parable, but I think this one is actually real. But there was a factory, actually, a publisher owned a multimillion dollar offset press that it used to print weekly tabloids. And one day the press came to a screeching halt. It just died. It made a really loud noise, stopped running, and that was it. The people working at the print shop, they were working on this massive press, tried everything they knew to get it running again. The operators, the maintenance staff, they even had mechanical engineers at the plant, and they were unable to get that machine to run again. They were out of business temporarily until they either replaced the machine or got it fixed. The operations VP called around to all of her colleagues to try to identify someone who might know how to solve this problem, recounting everything that they had tried so far.

And there was one name that came up several times during those calls. The VP reached out and contacted this consultant, made arrangements to come by the next day. Now, I said the word consultant, and when I'm talking about consultants and coaches, there's a lot of overlap. Sometimes I'll use those terms interchangeably because when we're talking about career coaching, a lot of that is consulting too, because you're not just doing the generic things that a coach would do, which are very similar to what a therapist would do, but you get into a lot of specifics when you're doing career coaching as to how to apply, where to apply and that kind of thing.

This consultant spoke to everybody who ran the press, everybody who tried to repair it. He looked at the machine for about 30 minutes, made a few adjustments, and he was able to get that press running a few minutes after doing all of that. The thing was, the VP was pretty upset when the consultant handed her a bill for $15,000 for repairing the machine. And she asked him how he could justify $15,000 for about one hour's worth of work. And what the consultant told him was, "Look, you didn't hire me as an hourly employee telling me what to do. You needed my expertise. No one else could have solved this problem. I spent the last 30 years acquiring unique experience and knowledge to be able to fix this particular problem."

And so, that wasn't what the $15,000 for. It wasn't his time there, his ability to remove a piece of the equipment or whatever it was. Knowing what to do, having seen that kind of problem before, reaching into their mental toolbox and figuring out, "Okay, this is what's going to solve this problem."

And I'm sure the other part of the argument was, "Look, if I hadn't come today and solved this problem, you would probably at best be able to get the manufacturer to come out here in two or three days and maybe solve the problem within the next few days or even a week. And by that time, you would be way beyond $15,000 worth of lost revenue, not to mention a lot of unhappy customers."

I use that again as an example of what we're talking about in coaching and consulting. So, you have to change the way you look at this. First of all, what I know is that the most experienced and effective coaches will probably charge the most for their time. And if you're thinking about it, let's say you're applying for a job as a physician or a clinician, let's say an APN, PA or whatever, pharmacist, you're going to be making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

If you're a physician, it could be $300,000, $400,000 a year and whatever job you're going into, whether it's clinical or nonclinical. And to expect to hire an effective coach for $100 an hour or $200 an hour for you to land a job that's going to stop a lot of your problems, make you happier or make you less stressed, uses your skills. There's a lot that goes into that. You should expect to be paying that person just doing the job you would be applying for can make $200 or $300 an hour. So why would they devote time and sharing their expertise with someone for less than that at least.

And the thing is, if you need specific information, this is where I'm talking about the expertise of a really focused consultant or coach. Let's say you want to get a particular job in a particular industry that's going to pay very well, and that means the coach has probably had that job or has hired someone to that job, knows the job description, knows what the must haves and the nice to have skills or experiences needed to land that job would be, then it's going to be worth a multiple of that $200 to $300 an hour.

And again, if you're talking about just general life coaching, it's going to be on the lower end because there's just general principles that can be applied. But if you also want to get in, I need specifics of how to write my resume, how to send out a cover letter, where do I apply? What's the quickest? There's some things that you have no idea.

For example, for some jobs in pharma, let's say, you really should apply to a CRO rather to a pharmaceutical company. And a good coach that is let's say addressing pharmaceutical jobs in the pharmaceutical industry will have that kind of knowledge. Someone in hospital health systems, they're going to have specific knowledge as to what the CFO, the CEO and the CMO are looking for in hiring a medical director or even a VP for somebody in that facility.

Another way to look at it is to consider what is your goal when you're thinking about engaging a coach? And maybe this will help make it even more clear. Is it a simple task or a complex task? That's a big differential. If we're talking about, okay, I want to learn how to plant the tree, I want to learn how to fix a tech problem, or let's say repair my bicycle. Well, to learn that, to get coaching for that, it's pretty simple. You can go online, you can Google it, you can go on YouTube and within five minutes they'll walk you through a process. You can answer those questions.

But if we think about some other more complex sorts of goals like landing a new job, starting a successful business, I can imagine even winning your first election, I've never tried that, but I'm assuming that they're experts and coaches and consultants that help you do that. And they're not going to be cheap.

Even this is a good one that I talked to a podcast guest about, and that was gaining admission to a top tier medical school. Now, there are dozens and dozens of things that you should do. Now we think we know how we're going to do that, obviously get the best grades we can and write a good letter of introduction and do the application properly. But there are people that are paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars per hour because they're thinking, "Okay, I want to get into this residency in this specialty." You name it, whatever, gastroenterology or otolaryngology. And I have my eye on two or three fellowships and two or three residency programs and maybe a really top tier medical school for whatever reason. That's not how I did it. I just want to get into med school so I can be a doctor.

But there are coaches who specialize in starting with the undergrads, how to get it in the best med school, the best residency, the best fellowship they pay. They're paid hundreds and thousands of dollars to teach them how to do that because there's only a few people that have done it. And besides just being an excellent student and having a good work ethic, there are a lot of little tips and tricks that if you don't know them, you're never going to get into Harvard.

As we get into these more complex and maybe even time-wise, more longitudinal, the cost is going to go up because the number of people with the expertise is going down. Now there are caveats because just because someone says they can do this, shouldn't be you're going to plunk down $5,000, $10,000, whatever, and believe that they can do it. So, there are caveats.

One is what is the deliverable that you want to get from this coaching? Is it just you need an accountability partner who can do basic coaching once a month, once every two weeks to accelerate your progress? Pretty much any good coach, general life coach or business coach can do that, can maybe take you from something you would've done on your own in a year and get it down to six months or two years down to nine months, something like that. And that doesn't require necessarily specific special expertise.

But if you're looking more towards a deliverable that is an outcome, it's like in the hospital setting when we were talking about quality improvement and patient safety. You've got some outcomes. Well, they're not really outcomes, they're processes. I put in place a good quality improvement process, so that means I have good quality, right? No, that doesn't ensure that at all. It just means you have a process which may or may not be delivered appropriately and effectively. The real proof is the outcomes, the patient care outcomes. That's the end point.

So, it's not always easy to get a coach to commit to an end point because so much of what you accomplish when you're being coached is the commitment that you have and the time and the coachability that you have. I like to think of myself as coachable, but it's hard when you have a strong personality. If you might be a little OCD like me or whatever it might be, you might always think that you know how to do things. And so, if you're going to get a coach, you want to be coachable, particularly if you're trying to get an outcome, because most of the time the coach won't take you unless you agree to follow what they do. Otherwise, they can't guarantee the outcome.

I remember this applied too when I was working as a CMO of the hospital. When we had a consultant come in, we always wanted to know what the outcome was. In other words, we didn't want someone to come in and say, "Look, I am going to do some lectures and I'm going to teach your staff all about how to be doing utilization management and reduce your denials. And so, you're going to pay me $1,000 for every lecture. I'm going to do 10 lectures, I get $10,000, and that's how I'm going to address your utilization management and length of stay program."

As opposed to someone who said, "No, we're going to come in, we're going to have a team, and we're going to start by educating everybody. And then once you implement these new things that we're teaching you, we're going to be there side by side watching and coaching your staff how to respond to questions, how to talk to patients, how to talk to physicians, what kind of checklist to use, and really get down into the nitty gritty. And we will guarantee that you're uncollectible revenue because of denials or other metrics that represent that we'll guarantee at least a 20% improvement in that. And generally we shoot for a 50% improvement."

Now you're talking about outcomes. You have to get to that point if you want to really make sure that an expensive coach is worth it. If you're saying, "Well, I want to find a part-time remote job in either utilization management or clinical documentation improvement", and then you try and pin down the coach, "Okay, so you're going to teach me specific ways to accomplish this, and in your estimation, I should be able to land that new job within what period of time." So you might not get an actual guarantee, but you'll might get something like, "Well, if you follow everything that we tell you, come to your meetings, don't blow us off and pay us on time, then yes, we will refund part of your money if that doesn't happen." That's almost like a guarantee.

The way to do that, two things. One is you definitely have to interview your coach, and most coaches have a so-called discovery call, which actually has value because they will give you advice right on that discovery call. But the main purpose of the discovery call really is to have a 30 minute conversation, let's say with the coach, and just hear their voice, tell them to explain why they think they can help you, what would be entailed, do they have a certain way to approach this problem? And really, if at all possible, get some testimonials for sure, although those are usually provided directly by the coach or consultant. But getting references, if you could talk to two or three people that can concretely answer your question, how long were you using this coach? How often did you meet? What were your sessions like? And was there other supporting material? Did they have intellectual property they were sharing with you like checklists and, and resource lists and things that they only share with their coachees? And did they live up to their promise and did you get the job that you thought you were going to get at the end of that coaching?

Sometimes there's coaches that won't do that, but really a few thousand dollars for a few hours with a career coach for a physician is quite reasonable. I know though there are others that go as high as $5,000 or $10,000 over we're talking a year or so because career transition can take a long time. And if you think about it, there are people that spend tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars to be in let's say a monthly meeting with Tony Robbins or some really high powered motivational expert.

The bottom line on the answer to the question that I had earlier this week from that physician was, look, something between t$2,000 and $3,000, if you can make it crystal clear what you're looking for and your expectation is that you should be able to be in a position to really identify the job and apply for the job by the end of your coaching. And if the coach will agree to that, not guaranteeing that you get the job, but really sharing all that knowledge, information and advice and even encouragement, then I would say definitely.

I've paid two people in the past for a year's worth of coaching, which is basically monthly meetings for $8,000 for each, for two totally different reasons. I'm a believer and I think it was worth it. And just like I think it's worth it to pay my fitness coach and work out with him two times a week. And when you add up all the payments that I've done every week for the last few years, it's added up to more than a few thousand dollars and I'm in a lot better health.

And just to be crystal clear, I was saying that the $2,000 to $3,000 for three sessions plus whatever ansley information that the coachee would get was worth it. Now if you're talking about something that goes six months or a year, it's probably going to be much more than that. And I still think that's a good investment.

All right, that's all I have for today. Thank you very much for being here.

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The 5 Most Popular Home Based and Remote Careers – 291

John Jurica — Tue, 14 Mar 2023 13:30:54 +0000

This List Keeps Growing

In today's show, John will provide an in-depth overview of some of the popular home based and remote careers.

There have been some significant developments in recent years. Multiple podcast guests have addressed remote careers and utilization management, in general, consulting, coaching, and so on.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Benefits of a Remote or Home Based Job

Being able to work remotely or from home has several benefits:

flexibility
convenience
lower costs for transportation
availability for family members

Categories of home based and remote careers:

Chart reviews
This includes utilization management, medical legal consultant, expert witness, clinical documentation improvement, and quality improvement.
Medical writing
There are several major categories of writing, namely: technical medical writing (CROs and pharma companies), medical communication (marketing agencies), continuing medical education and continuing education for other healthcare professions, patient education, and journalistic writing for clinicians or for the general public.
Telemedicine
This includes direct primary care services, specialty consults by expert physicians to other physicians, remote patient monitoring, remote imaging, and remote medical director services.
Consulting
The options here are to develop your own freelance consulting business or work for a large national or international consulting firm, much of which can be done from home.
Coaching
You can do one-on-one coaching and progress to group coaching remotely. You can work as an employee or as a freelancer.

Summary

There are both positive and negative aspects to working remotely. There is less structure with home based and remote careers, but with increased freedom and flexibility.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 291

5 Most Popular Home Based and Remote Careers

John: These are the most popular home-based and remote careers. And this is going to be an overview. There have been some new things that have come up in the last few years, and that's why I wanted to revisit this topic. I've had several guests who have talked about remote careers and utilization management, generally, consulting, coaching, and some of the other things we're going to talk about today. But today I want to also go ahead and give a broader overview and maybe mention some types of jobs that we haven't really specifically talked about in the past.

Before I do that, I do want to talk about the benefits of a remote or a home-based job. They're pretty self-evident. I could skip this part, but just to remind you of the convenience, for example, with childcare. It doesn't mean that you can work at home and attend to an issue, or an emergency while you're working. But being at home and working from home remotely allows you if you have school-aged kids and they need a little bit of supervision, but pretty much have things to do on their own, you're available.

Especially, this is true when you have other members of your family who need care and you can't be gone for days and weeks at a time or gone 8, 9, 10, 12 hours a day when maybe your next-door neighbor happens it'd be your senior mother or father or down the street, somebody close by. And it's nice to have someone like you at home working, but available if there's an issue if there's a problem. And so, it's convenient in that sense also.

Then there are cost savings. If you don't have to pay for a car and gasoline insurance upkeep on the car and so forth, it's going to save you a significant amount of money. In fact, one of the best advice I've ever heard is for someone new starting their career, one of the things you can do to maintain balance in your finances is trying to find a job or move your home to within walking distance of that job. And you can avoid all that expense and get a little bit of exercise at the same time.

Obviously, it's more flexible. And the flexibility means, okay, in the middle of the day, maybe you can answer the door and accept the package. Maybe you can let in a contractor who has to spend an hour or two in your garage fixing something and then you go back to work. So, having someone at home, it just adds a lot more flexibility.

In one form of that flexibility is the ability to travel. We are calling it home based or remote careers, but it can be remote from anywhere. A couple of examples. Probably the most extreme example is Dr. Chelsea Turgeon, who I've interviewed here on the podcast before. And she's also a mentor for the upcoming summit that I mentioned earlier.

And basically for the last four years, she's lived in various international locations building and now serving her consulting business. She consults mostly with people in the United States, but she does live in the United States. I don't think she's lived in the United States in over four years. I believe most of her travel's been in Europe, also the Far East. She worked in Korea for a year teaching English. I think she's lived in Central and South America.

And she continues to travel. She was actually changing her location monthly and now she's settling down to a one-year position in another foreign country. But she's able to work and make a really good living remotely while she's traveling. We've heard about my colleague at NewScript who oftentimes does telemedicine while he's on the road, whether it's in the East or in the West Coast or Texas or Florida. And so, that's a really good benefit for these kinds of remote careers.

Okay, let's get into the options. Some of these are going to be reviewed I'm sure again because I've had guests in the past who have done some of these jobs and we've talked about them specifically. But again, since we're doing an overview, I want to try to include everything that might fall into this category.

Some form of chart review. That's kind of a generic term, but it does cover a lot of things. I'll get into the specifics, but let me go over the major five because I did say we're going to have five categories or five jobs today. And the reality is I'm going to be talking about a lot more than five jobs, but there are five general categories of jobs.

The first is chart reviews, and the second is some form of medical writing. Third is telemedicine and telehealth, fourth is consulting, and fifth is coaching. So, you've probably heard me talk about all those and I've addressed specifics, but there have been some new things that have come up. So I thought I would expand on each of these and tell you what kinds of jobs are in these major categories.

So let's start with chart reviews. Again, I was starting to talk about utilization management. We've talked about that a lot. There's more utilization management typically if you're working for an insurance company or a third party that's providing those benefits management. But it is reviewing records a lot of times, and then sometimes you'll actually have to pick the phone and call somebody or receive a call from someone who's appealing something.

You're in the comfort of your own home. My daughter is a social worker and she does utilization review for mental health, or she had before remotely. And so, she was at home checking these things, approving, disapproving, calling, and sometimes attending. The same thing that a physician would do in this position. Sometimes it doesn't require actually calling different types of utilization management jobs, benefits management, case management, and so forth. But sometimes it does.

Then we have disability workers comp, which is basically a subset of utilization management, but there are different rules and sometimes it's just an up or down call on whether someone qualifies for disability for a certain type of insurance or whether they qualify for workman's comp when it turns out the accident they were involved with occurred in a time when they weren't at work, or the nature of it is an illness, not so much an accident. And so, they're definitely jobs in that arena that are slightly different from the usual UM jobs.

Then we've got all the medical legal type expertise or the typical classic expert witness. That part of their job is just doing a chart review and providing an opinion. In some cases they have to do a deposition, but those are usually remote or online as well. In rare cases, they will have to testify in court. And even some of those situations were able to be done remotely, especially during the pandemic, although I think that's more 50-50 or less in terms of you might actually have to show up in court, maybe even travel if you're working on a case that's at distance from your home. But technically speaking, that is a remote job. It doesn't require an office. Usually it's part-time because most expert witnesses also continue to practice part-time.

And then there's the other version of that, another form of forensic medicine called medical legal consulting, which is also done from home. It involves usually worker's comp and personal injury. It's pre-litigation. It does not involve depositions or testifying in court. It's almost completely remote, although in some cases you'll want to interview the client of the attorney who you're serving, which will mean either a Zoom call or a possible face-to-face. And there are rare occasions when you might have to go into the attorney's office to meet with a patient.

And then if you're doing something called an IME - Independent or insurance medical exam rebuttal, you might need to actually attend the IME visit. So, it's 99% or 95 plus percent remote, but sometimes you might have to do those other types of activities for that particular type of legal witness.

Another type is clinical documentation. Couldn't do this in the past when we had all paper charts, but now that all of our charts are electronic, you can review that chart anywhere. And as a result, a lot of CDI, clinical documentation improvement, or clinical documentation integrity jobs are remote. You can work remotely for an insurance company. You can work remotely as an employee for a third-party CDI service company and you can be a solo consultant. You can work one-on-one as a freelancer doing CDI for one or two or multiple hospitals. So, that's another type of chart review.

And then there are some chart reviews that are mainly focused on quality improvement. I think some governmental agencies like Public Aid and Medicare will sometimes ask for quality improvement reviews for various reasons. A lot of state licensing boards will hire people to review charts for purposes of determining whether there is a quality issue with one of its licensed physicians in that state. And there are other opportunities like that. There are some chart reviews you can do remotely that don't involve a lot of interaction with other people. You don't have to show up. And so, keep that in mind.

All right, the next big category we mentioned is medical writer. I've talked a lot in the past about medical writing and medical writers. You can categorize these by either freelance or employed. In freelance, you're starting slowly. You're learning how to be a medical writer. You're contacting different editors and publishers, and you're starting to write, you're creating a portfolio and eventually, you're just writing after you develop these relationships with these companies, usually if you have four to six or seven publishers that you work with or less oftentimes. You can have a regular income, lot of stability, and you can get paid well because a lot of times you'll get paid let's say as a CME writer, the hourly rate might be less because you're creating let's say a new CME program or event. It could be an enduring material, which basically is something that's available online or on paper.

But when it comes time to renew those things, a lot of times the upgrade and the review and the editing are very minimal. And you can actually make more money per hour doing that because you were the original author, it makes it a lot easier to do that second and third time around.

You can do the same thing as an employee. And remember, there are five or six major categories of writing, everything from technical writing for a pharma company or medical device company or, for a CRO (contract research organization,) which works for the pharma companies. And you've got the technical, then you've got things like educational. You can do CME or CE for different clinicians. You can write educational for patient education, put together brochures, and other forms of education for patients that different organizations need to produce and customize over time.

Then you can do more journalistic type of writing for physicians and other clinicians. Updates on certain medical conditions. There are a lot of articles written about COVID, for example, during the pandemic and still to this day. And then there's also education for the public and journalistic writing and newspapers and magazines and health magazines and all kinds of things like that. And again, you can develop relationships as a freelancer or you can go work for those companies.

And then you can also find a job as an editor who is really oftentimes called the medical director, for lack of a better term I guess. And that means you could be doing the classic editing that you would do, overseeing someone else's writing, but you might also be part of the management process for reviewing and coordinating with the other writers at your company.

I had a guest who went from really full-time podiatrist and she happened to have some leadership positions at the podiatry association that she was a member of, and she had been hired in as an editor for one of the podiatry magazines that get sent to physicians to podiatrists. So, don't forget about those editorial-type jobs other than just the writing jobs.

All right, telemedicine. This is a big area, but I wanted to mention it because it's not nonclinical, it's obviously clinical, but it's non-traditional. We always talk about non-traditional remote jobs and home-based jobs. So you've got the classical type of telemedicine jobs. You can do those either freelance or as an employee, just like most of these jobs can be done.

And we usually push the freelance version of this because it has a lot more flexibility, and takes more upfront work. It's fairly straightforward to obtain a list of the top 10 telemedicine providers, maybe talk to your friends about the ones that seem to be the best to work for, apply, get a job, and then they just start sending you, and you agree to a certain schedule and you just start seeing patients online in various ways, which I'll talk about in the moment.

But the freelance type where you're independent, you work for multiple platforms, and you're not really constrained with other things that you can do, there's no non-compete when you're freelance, generally if you sign the right kind of contract. So, being employed is fine, it's a good way to get your foot in the door. But as colleagues and NewScript mentors like Dr. Cherisa Sandrow have taught us and actually teaches others to do, the freelance form of this is usually much more lucrative. You can often work 20 or 30 hours a week and make a full-time salary. So, that's what we usually recommend.

Now the freelance form of that is being a primary care physician and doing one-on-one short visits, much like you would do in urgent care, not actually face-to-face, but remotely. That's probably the most common and the most lucrative. But there are other things that you can do. You can be involved in remote patient monitoring. RPM - Remote patient monitoring. Usually, the actual monitoring would be done by another type of clinician, a nurse, or a technician technologist. But a lot of times with the RPM, they'll need medical directors and need physicians to supervise and to create protocols and things like that.

So, keep your eyes open for remote patient monitoring companies that are growing. There aren't a lot of them, they're not that active, but I'm sure they will be more and more active over time. If you're a radiologist, you can do remote imaging. That actually was one of the earliest forms of telemedicine.

I've had a guest that came from Doctors For Providers. Actually two guests, the two co-owners. And this is a way to provide remote supervision. So, I'm including this as a form of telemedicine. I don't know if technically it is, but there are urgent care centers that employ PAs and NPs. There are independent APNs in certain states who have their own clinics. There are some legal constraints here. And buyer beware, make sure that your malpractice is covered completely and that you're not getting into a high-risk situation.

But there are many physicians currently doing remote monitoring, and collaboration supervision. They might be doing chart reviews to help with the quality improvement for the staff at the remote site, and they never set foot on the site, and they can do this even while they're working another job. Because as long as you can break away and do some collaboration and consultation, and also if you're doing chart reviews or doing reviews protocols, those are all done on unscheduled time at your own pace.

I would just remind everyone that telehealth is a huge field and there's a lot more to it than just face-to-face visits. The remote consultations also include specialists consulting with primaries, so they're not actually seeing the patient, but they're communicating with you as a primary if that's what you're doing to help you address a problem. And then obviously they can do remote consultations with patients as well, but sometimes I prefer just to work with the physicians rather than the patients in some situations.

Okay, now we've used the term consulting, but this time I'm going to focus specifically on the classical form of consulting, which again is either freelance or employed. Now, I threw boutique in here too because that's a term that's thrown around. But basically, the freelance is a one-person shop. Most of the time you have an area that you're an expert in, that you're passionate about. It could be inside the bubble of a medicine, inside direct patient care or it could be outside. Maybe you are an expert at marketing your practice. And so, you develop some courses, some consultation, and you can do these things remotely to help other practices do their marketing in an efficient and effective way.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have these national and international healthcare consulting firms. Places you may have heard like IBM has a large component, $50 billion-plus per year. Accenture, Deloitte, McKenzie, Ernst & Young, Huron. I've lifted these here. There are at least 40 more that do consulting to hospitals and health systems and large groups and telemedicine companies and other consulting firms and other delivery firms in healthcare and pharma and you name it.

I put the boutique in because you could start out as free freelance and then if you're doing that, let's say that marketing, you might end up hiring a copywriter part-time. You might end up hiring a social media expert. You might end up hiring an email expert. And then you're doing the basic marketing. And so, now you've developed a small free-standing consulting firm, which from the hospital side, health system side that I was involved with. And we would decide, do we want to get one of these huge international or national firms, or we want to find a boutique firm that has a smaller crew, but they're more focused on a very specific problem. So, that's another great remote and home based career. When you're doing freelance, it's probably more remote and more home based. When you work for a large firm, sometimes you do have an office to go to from time to time, and you do travel quite a bit. So, it might only be partially home based.

And the last category that I want to talk about today is coaching. 10 years ago, I think we were not aware that there were that many physician coaches around and there were some people who have been coaches for a long time, physicians coaching other physicians that are quite iconic. I won't mention any names, but nowadays there are literally thousands of physicians who are doing coaching.

There's a fuzzy line between coaching and consulting. But when we talk about coaching, we're talking about mostly starting with one-on-one coaching. It can be life coaching, it can be career coaching. There are at least 10 types of coaching, and there are probably more that I haven't even seen or heard about in the past.

But business coaching, professional coaching, and then even what you do as a consultant in a way is a form of coaching. But I've even seen yoga coaches in our physicians, meditation coaches, and success coaches. I've interviewed many coaches, and several of the coaches, in fact, at the summit that's coming up in April about seven or eight of the people that are presenting their formal job as coaching and training other people to do things that they've done and that they're experts. So we have a telemedicine coach and we have a locums coach and we have a pharma coach and so forth.

I won't get into the names right now, but suffice it to say it's a very popular type of job and it's one where you become an expert in something and you're just going to do one-on-one and help to train them. You can be employed. There are firms that employ physician coaches and that takes away some of the risks of building a business.

Most coaches that I know are either freelance or run some kind of a coaching business, and they may actually recruit other coaches, although they may not truly employ them. They might be more of a 1099-type relationship. So, technically, they're even sort of semi-freelance, although they have that relationship and they get some of their clients from this coaching company, they both exist.

And sometimes being employed first, as long as you don't have some kind of an exclusive contract that goes beyond a year or so, then you can move from employed to freelance if you want to do that.

Most coaching starts out as one-to-one. It oftentimes moves into group coaching. I've interviewed several successful very busy coaches, whether it's Heather Fork or Katrina Ubell who coaches for weight loss, or you name it, people that coach for doing real estate and coaches for starting a practice, coaches for being a medical legal consultant or for being an expert witness. There are all kinds of coaches and there's a blurry wall between coaching and consulting.

That's really what I wanted to do today. I've probably described at least 30 or 40 jobs depending on how you want to break it down.

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Why Physicians Should Not Underestimate the Value of Coaching – 274

John Jurica — Tue, 15 Nov 2022 13:45:33 +0000

Interview with Dr. Jen Barna

In today's episode, Dr. Jen Barna returns to the podcast to explain the value of coaching.

Jen Barna, MD is a board-certified radiologist and founder and CEO of DocWorking.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

The Value of Coaching

Dr. Barna's unique program, which now offers CME credit, combines pure support and brain-based learning tools with ongoing success coaching. This program is created to support your success, well-being, and ability to grow both personally and professionally.

Her learning tool is constructed from tiny modules that are intended to take 5 to 10 minutes of your day.

She also has a small coaching group program with physicians from across the country. She has seen them achieve their goals. Additionally, it propels them into leadership positions.

Dr. Barna's website created a quick quiz that will help you determine your position on the continuum between well-being and burnout. And there are videos with advice for overcoming it.

Forming New Habits

When forming new habits, Dr. Barna's coaches use the “knowing-doing gap.” It is by working with a trusted thinking partner to identify the “knowing-doing gap” that enables participants to:

make alterations to diet and exercise,
employ strategies to effectively manage your time,
adopt tools for managing stress,
better interact with people at home or work, and
promote self-awareness and personal development.

By adopting and implementing these tactics, the value of coaching becomes quite evident.

Dr. Jen Barna's Advice About the Value of Coaching

We can build new habits – when we are feeling stuck and we're looking for a way to move forward we can identify where we have agency to effect change in our own lives. We have more power than we think we do and we're not alone… you may just need to work with a trusted thinking partner to allow you change your perspective… sometimes just a small shift is all you need to see options in front of you that have been invisible until now.

Summary

Dr. Barna's program combines peer support with coaching from trusted thought partners. The value of coaching is easy to underestimate, but it's been shown to help us achieve our goals and advance our careers more quickly. Dr. Barna provides listeners to the Physician Nonclinical Careers Podcast with a Coupon Code (PNC100OFF) for those who decide to join DocWorking Thrive, which provides a $100 discount off the usual price.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 274

Why Physicians Should Not Underestimate the Value of Coaching

- Interview with Dr. Jen Barna

John: I know several coaches pretty well, and I've interviewed several coaches for the podcast and I've been kind of impressed in a negative way why some physicians are so tentative about using a coach. I have used coaches in my life several times. And I think back to when I was a chief medical officer, it was sort of standard, the CEO, the CFO, all the C Suite people had coaches. We actually all shared one for a while. That's why I wanted to get back with our guest today, Dr. Jen Barna, because she has this business that provides coaching and a lot of other support for physicians. And so, I wanted to talk about this subject again. Hello, Jen, how are you?

Dr. Jen Barna: I'm great, John. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's great to be back here with you.

John: Yeah. We talked about this a little bit. Well, we obviously talked about your business and what you do in coaching in general back in episode number 233, but I thought I wanted to learn more, get some more specifics about what your experiences have been. I think it's going to be a fun conversation and hopefully can get the physicians that are listening and other clinicians to think about whether a coach might be appropriate given their particular situation. First of all, let's have you give us an update on DocWorking THRIVE. That's your business, that's the website at docworking.com. So, tell us what's been going on there recently.

Dr. Jen Barna: DocWorking THRIVE is a program that's unique because it allows you to use your CME budget to get ongoing success coaching combined with peer support and brain-based learning tools. These are all designed to support your wellbeing, your success, and importantly, to keep you in the driver's seat of your own life with continued personal and professional growth in the direction of what matters most to you.

And what that means is we combine coaching support so that you have trusted thinking partners to help accelerate your progress toward what matters most to you combined with peer support so that you no longer feel isolated and you can leave guilt and shame behind. And what I mean by brain-based learning tools is digital courses that are created in small bite size modules that are designed to take only minutes per day because we need to be able to make progress in just 5 to 10 minutes.

And as healthcare workers, we don't have a lot of extra time. We design them all specifically for that purpose. It's like filling a toolbox with tools you can use and continuing to practice using them so that you retrain your brain to access them whenever they're needed. And it's been tremendous, John, to just get to know other physicians from across the country and see people making progress toward the goals that matter most to each of them, and to learn from each other as well as the coaches in the small group coaching sessions and on the platform.

John: That was one of the reasons that I wanted to have you back here, and I thank you for that because when I think of coaching, I think, okay, I'm going to pick up the phone or I'm going to call somebody again on Zoom call, and I'm going to have a face to face or maybe even just audio connection with someone and just do one-on-one coaching.

But the more I learn about DocWorking THRIVE is that there's so much more to it. And I don't think we really got into all that last time, and I'm trying to understand, but what I'm hearing though is there is some peer interaction on a regular basis. And I know I get emails because technically, I'm a member of your program, although I don't use the coaching, but it helps me to just kind of keep track of what you're doing. And I get these emails that invite me to maybe a short presentation or something having to do with working with peers. So, tell me a little bit more about that, because I think in the abstract, it's kind of hard to envision exactly what that means.

Dr. Jen Barna: Yeah. Everything that we do was created by our experience coaching team who had been working with physicians, some of them for over a decade. They really know from experience what works to help physicians move forward. And they had seen peer support as a key component to that and the ability to take these courses as resources. So, we combined all three. And the reason I find that to be so useful is because coaching is something that can benefit us throughout our careers wherever we are in life. And it really can be both a professional growth tool as well as personal growth.

And in healthcare, I think we deserve coaching, as you mentioned, in a similar way to how executives, athletes, actors use coaching throughout their careers. We have earned that working in such a stressful environment. It's really needed in order to help us stay on a sustainable path. And that has to be defined by each of us on our own terms. But when we work with others who are in the same field or in the same career, even if they're in different specialties, it really gives us some perspective on some of the things that we struggle with and we tend to be isolated in our struggles.

We think that we're alone, but we're really not at all alone as we begin to realize when we start talking with each other in these small group coaching sessions. So, the invitations that you're getting are just reminders about your monthly small group coaching sessions. We also have what we call one minute coaching sessions that are an email that comes to you with a one-minute coaching video every single week to just give you something you can put to use right away, no matter how busy you are, even if you're too busy to come to the small group coaching sessions.

But I do find that once people start coming to the sessions, they really begin coming routinely because they get a lot out of it. And the first thing people tend to say is, "I know I need it, but I don't have time for it." But once they begin to invest just that five minutes a day and start to make that part of their routine, begin learning the tools, it's kind of like when you're studying philosophy or something else or medicine for that matter.

It's something that you build over your whole career. You're building up this skillset and every time you revisit a concept, whether it's in a coaching session with peers, whether it's in a one-on-one coaching session, or whether you're seeing it in a course, maybe you're seeing it on the platform and some comments going back and forth between coaches and people in the program. Every time you see that and you see it in a slightly different way, you build on your understanding of the concepts. And of course, our goals change over time as well. What we're striving for can be accelerated with coaching, the path to get to that. But what that might be that we're aiming for will of course change once we reach that goal. There's always the next goal.

John: Yeah. I think unless you've been through some version of that, you don't really understand it. I can give you an example. When I was a CMO, then we had this coach and I remember the most challenging thing. I would walk in the room and he would just ask a question like, "Okay, what's your biggest challenge today?" It reminds me of going to therapy. My foot would start tapping and I'd be like, "Okay, I actually have to think about this." And invariably there's always something that I was working on there.

And just bringing that up and then walking through it, explaining what the problem was, a lot of times just defining the problem gives you the solution. And that's just how it is with coaching. It's not like they're telling you what to do like a consultant. It's like, "Okay, we're going to find out where you need this little push or understanding and let's work on that." And it does accelerate everything. That's definitely been my experience.

Dr. Jen Barna: Absolutely. And it really teaches you to think in a way that's based on your own values. And so, you start by just defining what is most important to you, and then you begin to shape your decisions around that. I spent years as a physician trying to solve things on my own before I discovered coaching. And I thought I had solved a lot of things, and I had solved a lot of things. But when I started working with coaching, the progress I made was so, so much faster than what I had done on my own for years. That really was what motivated me to bring these coaches together to create this platform.

Because as we work as individuals, sometimes we can't see all of the options that we have available to us. There might be a solution sitting right in front of you, but you're not able to see it. And so, when you're working with a trusted thinking partner, it opens your eyes or maybe can slightly shift your perspective so that suddenly you see these options that you didn't realize were there for you. And that's part of how you can really accelerate your progress.

John: It seems like there are certain situations where coaching would be extremely useful. I think it's usually when there's a big change that's in the offing or there's a desire for a big change, whether it's in a career or I think one example would be in starting a business or side gig, which is really something new even though you're still maybe practicing part-time. How does that play out in DocWorking THRIVE? Or do you have physicians that are facing those kinds of challenges that come for coaching?

Dr. Jen Barna: Yeah, we definitely do. I think anytime you're going through a transition, as you say, starting a side gig, entrepreneurship, accelerating your success. Accelerating your success can be a game changer. It can be the difference between succeeding and failing. And of course, it's also a normal part of reaching success to have failures along the way and finding ways to cope with that can be another opportunity for coaching.

But also, to help you brainstorm when you get stuck and hold you accountable and as I said before, help you shift your perspective to see solutions. People who are going through any kind of a career change can certainly benefit from coaching. We see people who are making progress, moving toward a leadership position. A lot of times as physicians, we get promoted into leadership positions and we're expected to lead without any kind of training about leadership in and of itself.

But also, there are so many other areas where coaching can help people to accelerate their progress, even in personal transitions. People who are struggling with work-life balance or finding a way to integrate work and life outside of work, which was always the struggle for me. People who are wanting to improve relationships, including work relationships and personal relationships, marriage and other relationships, or people who are going through a relationship change like a divorce.

We have a parenting coach on our team, for example. Parenting can be an area where people can use some coaching. She likes to describe herself as helping people to parent the child they weren't expecting. And one of our DocWorking THRIVE members, a nephrologist, father of twins said that would be every child.

John: Exactly.

Dr. Jen Barna: And also coaching can be a huge help when you're wanting to form new habits. As doctors, we know a lot, we know what we should do but sometimes there's that gap between what we know we should do and what we actually do. And the coaches call it "The Knowing-Doing Gap." They can help us by being our trusted thinking partners to find ways to overcome that knowing-doing gap and form new habits around things like changes in nutrition or exercise or something I see people really appreciating is ways to manage their time more efficiently and tools to process stress. Everything ties back to how we spend our time and how we interact with other people both at work and at home. And coaching can help you to prioritize the ways you do those things help you build self-awareness and really grow as an individual.

John: I think you mentioned one aspect of coaching or one type of coaching need, but I want to ask, kind of dig into it a little bit further. And that's on the professional development side. And I'll tell you why, because I get people that ask me, they've already made a decision, they're going to do a nonclinical job. In fact, they might be working as a medical director like two thirds, three quarter times. So, they're basically doing medical directing and they're doing a little bit of practice, which is pretty common. But they're like, "Well, I've been doing this for two years and I've been unable to figure out how to advance."

And the ironic thing to me is they will ask me about spending $60,000 or $80,000 on an MBA, and I'm thinking, "Well, maybe coaching would be helpful. It's going to cost a lot less and it's going to help you organize your thoughts and come up with a plan. Maybe you need an MBA, maybe not." But the thing that is ironic is the fact that they're so reluctant to pay for the coaching. That's the thing that kind of kills me when they're willing to shell out all this money for an MBA or an MMM or some other expensive degree. What's your experience been with that?

Dr. Jen Barna: Well, I do think it's interesting that in healthcare we're behind other sectors. Other sectors recognize that coaching can help you with success, whereas in healthcare, we traditionally have thought of it as something that you do kind of at the end of the line. When you have such a serious problem that you're thinking about counseling is more appropriate in those situations, which is different from coaching.

But coaching really can help us, as I said, throughout our careers and I really see it as a need for a paradigm shift. And that coaching should be normalized for healthcare workers throughout our careers. Again, combined with peer support and ongoing access to evidence-based digital learning tools, because it helps us to stay connected to the meaning and the purpose of the work that we do, whatever that is for you. And staying connected to the relationships that we care so deeply about. These are the things that make life worth living.

And so, coaching can also help us to find a way to work that is sustainable. Whether it's a nonclinical career, whether it is in your clinical career or some combination of those, because you do have the option to do both. Coaching can support living our lives in a way that prioritizes what's most important to us. And I think that's really critical to helping to prevent burnout and to finding a way to happiness and sustainability in what we do.

John: I remember the advice of a good friend and colleague of mine. We were both involved with the American Association for Physician Leadership. We chaired committees for them and we used to go to meetings together and so forth. He told me something once that just blew my mind. He said, "When I take a new job", as what he was doing in CMO or some similar position, he says, "I always put in my agreement or my contract that my employer's going to provide coaching for me." I thought that was so brilliant. Like, "Ah, it's so obvious" but I never thought of that and I thought that's just great.

Something to keep in mind, even if people are moving up into these positions and you have the opportunity to have your employer help cover the cost, that's awesome. It's kind of like getting CME credit. There's more benefit to it. It kind of takes the financial hit off a little bit because not only are you learning and advancing, but you're getting CME credit or having someone else pay for it or what have you. So, I think we need to figure out how to work this into our lives.

Dr. Jen Barna: We actually do have a new hire success program that we do promote to healthcare organizations to put people into it. It's a yearlong program, and it provides not only the small group coaching and everything else that I've talked about so far, but we also do what we call care calls where we call the person who's going through the transition as well as their significant other and just check in with them outside of coaching to just see how things are going.

And one thing that we do that I think is a really important part of this program is we begin right when someone signs their contract. If the healthcare organization is working with us, ideally, we start as soon as the person signs their contract. Because as physicians often, and other healthcare workers as well, but particularly for physicians, it can be a very long gap between when we sign a contract and when we start the work. And we begin working with people to build these skills from the time they sign the contract, so that when they are starting that job, they're really starting with their best foot forward again with the concepts of what matters most to them. And also, with the strength of being able to communicate in ways that are more effective so that if there is a problem, they can negotiate how to solve the problem with their new team and have the confidence to be able to do that.

And one thing of course, that I think is really important to recognize is that as healthcare workers, we work in a system that is broken. We're not personally responsible for fixing the broken system that we work in. It's going to take years. I hope that it can be fixed somehow, but I think we have to be able to put ourselves in the driver's seat of our own lives and be able to recognize where we can affect change in our own environments. There are many places within our lives where we can make choices, and that includes in our work lives as well as our personal lives. And so, we can maintain some control so that things can move in the direction we want them to go. And then ultimately, hopefully we can be part of the solution. But as individuals, we don't need coaching because we are broken. We need coaching because we want to have success and live fulfilling lives.

John: Absolutely. One of the things, I get questions, of course, from people all the time about coaching. "Should I get a coach?" 90% of the time it's going to be yes. But they also always ask me, "Well, how do I pick a coach? It seems like it's kind of a crapshoot. There are thousands of coaches out there technically depending on what you're looking for." And I give them my advice, but I guess I would like your advice from your experiences. Is there a method to the madness of trying to align with the best coach or the best coaching service?

Dr. Jen Barna: Well, one of the reasons I created DocWorking the way that I did is to help to troubleshoot that exact problem because we're already facing overwhelm in a lot of the things that we do every day. And it can be overwhelming to try to sort through thousands of people and find the right person for you. And that's why I brought a team of the best of the best together so that you can go to this and you have a team of coaches and you have access to the best in the industry.

I would say far and away that experience is the most important factor that I would look for in finding a coach. Just like you want a doctor with experience, if you have an illness, you want to coach with experience who has helped people like you, and you really want to find a program where you can get ongoing support, not just a few one-on-one sessions or a couple of one-on-one sessions.

You want that support to combine the coaching, peer support, and brain-based learning tools because you need access to all of those. The reason you want the support to be ongoing is because we don't master these skills overnight or in one weekend or in a few weeks. We can accelerate our progress quickly. We can see people make changes very fast and move toward answering something or making a decision that they were having trouble with, but we continue to refine and build the skills over time.

You can think of it like going to the gym and learning to use the equipment. You don't stop there, right? You have to make it part of your routine. And if it's done right, it only takes a few short minutes per day. You do build those skills like building muscles. The idea is to retrain your brain so that you can access these tools in the heat of the moment anytime you need them.

John: All right. Jen, we're going to get close to the end here in a minute. Let me first make sure I don't forget, again, how do we find you again? Give us that website. And I think I saw there's a pop-up there about a quiz. Maybe you can explain what that is because I checked it out earlier today.

Dr. Jen Barna: Yeah. We have developed a very short quiz. I think it takes maybe two minutes, maybe less than two minutes. It's a quiz to see where you are on the continuum from wellbeing to being burned out. And the quiz as you take it and answer the questions, you'll get a score and the score will be emailed to you and it'll group you into one of three sections.

And then depending on whether you have none to mild versus mild to moderate versus severe, you'll get some information that'll help you to take some steps right away. We'll send you a video of one of our coaches who will talk to you based on what your score is and just give you some ideas that you could use to get started right away, to put yourself in a position for success. Whether it is addressing burnout and moving away from it, or whether it is preventing burnout. If you're in a good place and you're not needing to move away from burnout, of course, we want to keep you there. So, some tips for that as well.

John: Very nice. Yeah, we like to use as much free advice as we can get. We're trying to figure this stuff out. I did want to mention something else before we go too, and that's the podcast, DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast.

Dr. Jen Barna: Yeah. Thanks for mentioning it. The podcast has been truly a joy and a fun way to meet amazing people like you, John. And we have a combination of doctors telling stories about their lives, many people who are at the top of their field, who've been through burnout, and they've found a way back to do the work that they love doing. Again, whatever that is. For some people that's a side gig. For some people it's nonclinical. For some people it's clinical. Also coaching topics that people can put to use right away. So, it's a joy to hear all of the different perspectives on the podcast, and I would certainly be thrilled to hear some feedback from your listeners if you guys have a chance to check it out.

John: Yeah. I think it's pretty interesting and informative. I was listening to a recent episode and I thought to myself, "Wait a second. That does not sound like Jen Barna to me." Because you have different hosts that are part of your team.

Dr. Jen Barna: Right. My co-host is Jill Farmer. She's our lead coach at DocWorking, and she is a nationally known coach who has been coaching physicians for over a decade. She leads our team of coaches and she is absolutely tremendous. She was previously, her work prior to becoming a coach over 10 years ago was as a TV news anchor. And so, she has been through some of the same types of stress and overwhelm as we have as physicians, and she has become known nationally as a time management expert.

John: Okay.

Dr. Jen Barna: And she has guided many physicians in leadership positions to put themselves in the driver's seat of their own lives and to deal with so many situations that we encounter including helping people. We've actually also developed a program to help people who are struggling with charting. There are so many different areas that coaching can really help.

John: Nice. Yeah. I would recommend definitely listening to the podcast. I love podcasts, obviously, not just because I produce one, but it's just so convenient when I'm taking a walk or driving the car. I love to learn something new. Let's see, I'm going to let you go soon. I think we had talked last time maybe and it came up before we got on here today, about possibly having some kind of a coupon code if someone does end up using your services, they could use it to get a little bit of a discount.

Dr. Jen Barna: Yes, absolutely. I have a special coupon code that I'd love to offer to your listeners, John. It's PNC100OFF.

John: Okay, cool. PNC is for Physician Nonclinical Careers, my podcast. PNC100OFF.

Dr. Jen Barna: Exactly. PNC100OFF. That'll give you $100 off if you decide to become a member of DocWorking THRIVE.

John: All right. I will put that in the show notes and in my email so people will not have to write that down at the moment, but they can if they want to and not have to look at my show notes. All right. I do have one more question and that is any final advice for listeners who are either in a nonclinical job or clinically working and they're stuck as I guess the way I'd put it. Either there's something wrong and they can't figure it out or they know they need to make a change and they can't figure that out. Any advice for someone to help them in that situation?

Dr. Jen Barna: Sure. I would say we can build new habits. When we're feeling stuck and we're looking for a way to move forward, we can identify where we have agency to affect change in our own lives. We have more power than we think we do. And we're not alone. It can feel like you're the only one who's stuck and maybe you're even ashamed to admit that you're stuck, but you'll find out when you talk with your peers in a safe environment that what you're experiencing is probably not as unusual as you think. And you have a lot more options than you think. It's not all or none. You may just need to work with a trusted thinking partner to allow you to change your perspective. And sometimes just a small shift is all you need to see options in front of you that have been invisible until now.

John: Excellent. Yeah. I think the idea of just reaching out to somebody, even if it's a trusted colleague or someone, just to bounce things off and then you can start opening up your mind to what's possible and then look for some real professional assistance if you need it. All right, Jen, this has been very helpful, very interesting. I hope that the physicians listening here will take this to heart in terms of remembering that coaching can benefit pretty much all of us, unless we're in the verge of retirement, perhaps.

Dr. Jen Barna: We even have physicians who are post-retirement in our group.

John: Well, that's good. Then there's something going on there too. So, you never know. Whatever you're doing, maybe they're trying to do things and they want to do it a little quicker, which I guess is important when you're in retirement. To me, I've often said that the older people should be moving faster than everybody else, not slower because we have less time. But that's another story.

Dr. Jen Barna: That's another episode.

John: Yeah, to get to that. Okay. Anyway, let's end it there. Thanks, Jen, for being here today. I really appreciate all the information you've shared with us today and the coupon code. I'm sure I'll have you back on the podcast somewhere down the line.

Dr. Jen Barna: Thank you so much, John. I'm looking forward to having you back on DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast as well. Absolutely.

John: Oh, that would be fantastic. Great. All right. Thanks. Bye-bye.

Dr. Jen Barna: Thank you. Bye-bye.

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How to Survive and Thrive on the High Pressure Healthcare Battlefield – 233

John Jurica — Tue, 01 Feb 2022 11:00:16 +0000

Interview with Dr. Jen Barna

Dr. Jen Barna has created a place where frustrated and burned-out physicians can learn to survive and thrive.

Dr. Barna earned her medical degree and completed her Diagnostic Radiology residency at the University of Tennessee School of Medicine. She also holds a master’s degree in Molecular and Cellular Biology from Washington University in St. Louis. She is a board-certified practicing radiologist and founder and CEO of DocWorking.

DocWorking is a company that helps physicians maximize meaning and purpose in life, in and out of work. It does so by providing expert coaching, a peer support community, courses, and other resources through its subscription called DocWorking THRIVE. It definitely helps physicians survive and thrive.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Helping Physicians Survive and Thrive

DocWorking also assists organizations to support their physicians, advanced practitioners, and healthcare teams via DocWorking Solutions. This program improves engagement and satisfaction, which improves recruitment and retention, and patient care.

Finally, Dr. Barna is also the co-host of DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast, now ranked on multiple lists as a top physician podcast.

DocWorking Podcast

Jen has already posted over 130 episodes of the podcast. The episodes are engaging and educational. And the topics resonate with most clinicians.

It can be found by searching on any podcast app for DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast.

Summary

You can learn more about Dr. Barna and DocWorking at docworking.com.

If you want to go directly to look over the DocWorking Thrive Program, just go there and click on the Thrive Physician Coaching Program tab at the top of the website. You’ll also find a link to the DocWorking Thrive Program for healthcare organizations.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

Links for Today's Episode:

DocWorking
DocWorking THRIVE Program [Use Coupon Code TWENTYOFF for a discount]
The DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast
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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 233

How to Survive and Thrive on the High-Pressure Healthcare Battlefield

John: I'm really pleased to present today's guest. She's a radiologist, a podcaster, and a business owner, but her business is devoted to helping physicians find and express meaning and purpose in their lives. It's basically really sophisticated coaching services the way I look at it. Hello, Dr. Jen Barna.

Dr. Jen Barna: Thank you, John. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here with you on this podcast, which is one of my favorite podcasts. I love the concept of nonclinical career options, and I'm very excited to speak with you today.

John: Very good. Well, I'm glad to have you here because we're going to pick your brain and try and learn everything we can from you in the next 25 minutes or so. This is going to be fun. We always start out by giving you a chance to give us the short version of what you do, your education, your training, and maybe exactly how you're balancing whatever you're doing today.

Dr. Jen Barna: Okay. Well, I am a board-certified practicing radiologist. I practice part-time while I run DocWorking, which is my business. That is a business that's based on helping physicians to maximize their potential by identifying what matters to each individual person and managing time and stress, and basically keeping your eye on the prize, for what is most meaningful to you as an individual. I'm a mom, I'm a wife and all of the things that we do outside of medicine. And I'm really interested in physicians finding a way to integrate their work lives and maximize potential there while also living the best life they can outside of work.

John: Okay. Now, what I'm getting through what you just said you're doing is there's an obvious reason for it. I want to ask you a little question here, put you on the spot. What were you observing that prompted you to feel like, "Well, this is something we need?"

Dr. Jen Barna: Well, that is a great question. And for me personally, it really comes down to experiencing some burnout that in retrospect started even in medical school for me. I had both of my kids as a medical student, which was almost unheard of at the time. I've been practicing for a while now since I graduated from medical school in 2001.

When I began that journey, ultimately, I felt this constant pull between work and wanting to spend more time with my family. That was the struggle for me going through at the beginning of my career. And then as I went through my career, I think some of that actually held on, even though I began to figure out how to balance it all over time.

What I noticed is that in dealing with all of that, I felt very, very isolated, really. I didn't want to ever admit that I had any issues while I was at work. And of course, when you're at work, you're working, you don't have time to talk about it. We don't talk about it as physicians. And so, initially, I thought the best way out for me was going to be to leave medicine. And that's really how I got interested in nonclinical careers and why I find what you're doing so interesting. I became interested in business and side gigs and what other things people can do, not just as physicians, but just in general as business people. And I thought that was going to be the path I would go down. And as I began to learn over time about coaching, I began to find some really phenomenal coaches. They were able to help me to really focus on what mattered to me. And I experienced a mind shift really.

It's an ongoing process. It's not something that is just like a quick fix, but it made me realize that I didn't actually want to leave medicine. And that there's a lot of in-between. It's not just black and white. I was able to find a way to stay in the career that I love with a group that I've been with for 11 years or so, and also find a way to prioritize what mattered to me outside of work. I wanted to bring that to other physicians, and bring the value that coaching can add to our lives as physicians in a way that also helps physicians to save time. There are many coaches out there. I wanted to find the best coaches, bring them to one platform. And then when you go to docworking.com you know you don't have to spend your time sorting through thousands of people. You can go there and know that that's where you can find the best resources.

John: Very good, very good. I could tell that you went through a similar thing that I've gone through and many of my listeners have gone through and many physicians have gone through. And it's particularly difficult I think, as a woman with children in residency or medical school, that'd be just... I can't even imagine that. Closest I came was getting married while I was in med school and that was a nightmare. I find that very interesting and yes, I've talked to coaches before, but I think you've designed something that's very unique that we're going to get into, even in more detail in a minute.

But I don't think we've mentioned, except maybe briefly in the intro is that you're a podcaster. You have a podcast. I want to get that out of the way, so to speak. I don't really want to get it out of the way, but I want to talk about that for just a couple of minutes before we get into really the big topic. Did this come from the very beginning of starting your business? Why did you start the podcast and how would you describe the podcast in terms of who you interview or who you talk to and just kind of lay it all out for us?

Dr. Jen Barna: Thank you for asking about that. Our podcast is DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast, and it's on all of the podcasting platforms. And what we did is when I started DocWorking, I brought two phenomenal lead coaches on, Dr. Gabriella Dennery and master certified coach Jill Farmer who's nationally known as a coach and has been coaching physicians for over a decade.

I brought them together and the three of us decided to start the podcast last February because we really wanted to create content that would give physicians something that they could listen to and walk away from and put into action immediately. We do a combination of coaching topics, which relate to leadership and confidence and visioning and time management, stress management, communication. All these different topics are really helpful and you can take something away immediately.

And I also wanted to hear about the lives of other physicians, because since we don't have time to really delve into that and get to know each other often at work, I think we do as medical students and often as residents. But then when we get into private practice or into a career, you think that you're as busy as you're going to be when you're a resident or fellow. And it turns out that you are busier when you finish, which was a bit of a shock to me.

I wanted to bring physicians on and hear about their lives. It's a combination of physicians who are just at the top of their game and often have gotten there with the help of coaches. And these physicians often are using coaches in an ongoing way and hear about how they did that, and how they're doing everything they're doing, but also balancing their lives outside of their career. And then also hearing from people who are out there in the trenches, dealing with real-life in rural settings or settings all different types of ways we can practice medicine non-clinical and clinical, and even medical students, residents, all the way up to retired physicians. We really are enjoying just exploring the voices of medicine and combination.

John: Excellent. Here are my comments on that too. Of course, we're all listening to podcasts, we love podcasts and that's why we have a podcast. And I appreciate the listeners that are listening right now. I've had several guests over the last few years and many of them are podcasters, but we can all get in our little bubble. It's the bubble around John Jurika and who he knows. When I was looking and listening to some of your episodes, number one, it's just a fresh perspective. I wasn't even aware of what you were doing until just recently. And I was going through all the guests you had and 99% of those guests, I've never talked to personally.

For those listening who have heard all of my guests in the past, some of whom have been repeat visitors, there's a whole world that Jen Barna has created, and a whole new podcast with a lot of new perspectives. I think there are a lot of obviously common threads, but I would recommend people just check out the podcast just to get a whole new perspective from your whole corner of just career transition and just thriving in the general universe. That's my recommendation.

Dr. Jen Barna: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

John: If you want to learn more, just listen to that podcast. Now, we're going to talk more about this very interesting, and I think somewhat unique approach to coaching, coaching service, and support service for physicians that come through DocWorking THRIVE. It's the main brand. Tell us again, why did you decide to do it the way you're doing it? How is it different from, let's say, other coaching programs? I know you touched on earlier, but let's get into that in a lot more detail.

Dr. Jen Barna: Thank you. Yeah. I think the main emphasis that we have in our program that makes us unique is that first of all, the coaches that we have are experienced, they already know how to get results. They have been doing this for years. They know how to work with physicians. They know the unique problems that we face. As physicians, they understand that. They understand our limitations with time.

Everything we've designed in THRIVE is created to accommodate a busy physician's schedule so that you can pick up value in very short increments based on small group coaching, and also peer support. Because again, as physicians, we often don't have that interaction at work with other physicians in a way that allows us to be vulnerable and allows us to share our struggles. From speaking with physicians across the country, I've found that people often have a sense of isolation and by being in an environment where there is peer support in an ongoing way that is facilitated by coaches, that is very valuable to the physicians who are in our group.

And additionally, we do the small group coaching that comes with an ongoing subscription. And there are several courses that are virtual courses that you can also tap into at your own whim and do however much time you have, a few minutes in this course, or that course, STAT: Quick Wins to Get Your Life Back, which was designed by master certified coach Jill Farmer and Dr. Gabriella Dennery. And then there are leadership communication and resilience courses that are built into the program.

All of these facets allow you to come in as a physician. And perhaps right now you're needing some help dealing with feelings of burnout, or maybe what you're doing is you're wanting to get that next promotion, and you want to focus your energy on that. All of the things that happen in life, maybe you're just saying like, "I don't really remember why I'm doing this in the first place. What was my purpose in this? Can I find that again?"

Whatever it is at any given time, there are always new things to focus on to really maximize your potential and figure out what matters most to you that may change over time as well. So, what matters to you now and what we can help you to achieve may change over time. That's why I wanted to create a program that's ongoing. It isn't just a course that ends. And then you get what you get out of it. We wanted to provide support in an ongoing subscription type of format.

The other concept that's different about what we're doing is it's preventive. Rather than wait until you get to a point where you're at the end of your rope, and you're having to leave medicine altogether. Although of course, everyone has their own choice. And if that's what's best for you, then absolutely, we support whatever the individual wants to accomplish. But rather than feeling like you're at the end of your rope, and you have to make decisions because you're too burnt out, we are trying to help people prevent that from ever happening. It also helps healthcare institutions and healthcare organizations, because by supporting their physicians in this way, the physicians can really thrive, which ultimately benefits the organization, and of course, benefits patients.

John: Okay. That is one of the things I noticed. I had a chance to look through some of the courses and the videos that are in there and read more about it inside. And I also noticed that somehow, you're making this available to organizations to help them with, let's say, their medical staff or their physicians are working at their clinic. How does that work? If an organization wants to implement something like this, do they just register a bunch of their physicians or how do they integrate that into what they want to do and what THRIVE does?

Dr. Jen Barna: Yes. It's very customizable in terms of how different organizations want to implement it. In an ideal world, they would put all of their physicians in it and provide this support to them, which ultimately, would benefit the organization. Some organizations are wanting to put their wellness council in so that they have the support of coaching as a backup as they are providing coaching within the organization. It's a fantastic opportunity for them.

And it's also helpful to have it as a backup for even an institution that has a strong wellness program in it, because as you know and I think all of us know, and certainly from talking with physicians, I universally hear people say, "I don't want to go for coaching inside of my own institution. I really would prefer to go outside."

It's valuable to have coaching available at an institution. But even what the wellness council coaches are telling me is that often by the time someone comes to them they are having some problems that are more serious. And again, what we're trying to do is help people never have to get to that point. We're really about helping you maximize your potential with coaching. And that can have to do with making the best of your life. You don't have to be in a difficult position trying to work out of it, although we can help with that as well.

John: Okay. Yeah. That's an awesome point. And one thing I wanted to come back to is that there are a lot of physicians that actually resist the idea of coaching. I didn't resist it in the past. I just didn't know anything about it. When I was a CMO over the hospital, of course, like many hospitals C-suite teams, we all had coaching as part of just working there. The CEO started first, he had a coach for like a year or so. And then he said, "Wait a second. I should bring this in for my team." And so, we had a coach who was coaching the team as a team and was doing individual sessions. So many businesses incorporate just constant coaching from day one so that their leaders can really move forward a little easier, a little more quickly, coaching just helps them focus and figure out what's important, what's not important, that kind of thing. I did notice that in what I was looking at on THRIVE. Do you want to comment on that?

Dr. Jen Barna: Yeah. I love that you brought that up because I am an example of a person who thought they didn't need coaching. It took me years of thinking I had figured it out and I was figuring it out and I was fine and I didn't need any outside help. And once I had some coaching and I realized what a huge mind shift it was for me, I realized, "Wow, I could have accomplished what took me 10 years to accomplish, I could have accomplished it in such a shorter amount of time if I had done this early on."

It is true that culturally within medicine, I don't think we've recognized yet as physicians, the value of coaching. And I think that there's huge potential for physicians, especially because we are lifelong learners and we have a tendency to be very high achieving individuals. And I think for people who are like that, coaching can especially provide a huge benefit. And like you say, it's well recognized in business, in acting, in sports that ongoing coaching is hugely valuable. So, it's a little bit late. We're a little bit late to the game as physicians.

John: One of my colleagues who is a physician leader, was a CMO and he's done other things. And one of the things that he does when looking for a new job is that having a coach would be a condition of his employment. That would be part of his contract. "I'm going to get regular coaching, business coaching." And I thought that was smart. Why didn't I think of that? Just build that into your employment, if you can.

Okay. Let's see. There were other questions I think I had about the program. It's kind of multimedia in a way, you've got the videos. There are certain things in coaching that come up over and over and over again. So, it makes sense to sort of put that into a video, like, okay, you're all going to have to think about this, or at least most of you, here they are. If you've already got this mastered, then just skip that lesson. Then you have group sessions, pretty much monthly. Is that how that works?

Dr. Jen Barna: Yes. With the videos, what we really are thinking, and first of all, we're in process of adding a new course, which will be available that gives CME credit that's in the portal as well. And that course is about resiliency. We, as physicians, are already resilient. It's not about needing to be more resilient.

John: I know, some people, oh boy, they get their hair off on the back of their neck when they say, we need to be more resilient. Like we are the most resilient people on the planet. But go ahead.

Dr. Jen Barna: I hear you. I feel that, yes, I totally agree with that. But this is a phenomenal course and it does help. All of our courses really are designed to give you the basic concepts of some time management skills that you can put into use right away. And all of the things we've already talked about, but also mindfulness and visioning and some tips on resilience, but also some vocabulary to use with your team, as a physician leader around resilience. And it's a bit higher level. It's not to say that you're not already resilient because clearly, we are all resilient and we are still standing here because we are. I think we're in the living proof phase of that, for sure. Now more than ever.

John: Well, let me jump in. Maybe if you even get the skills to negotiate with your employer or your coworkers in terms of like, okay, we want to promote this resilience, but resilience may need something like rest or not doing things in a dysfunctional way, fixing a process rather than just toughen it out, tough right through it.

Dr. Jen Barna: That is a huge part of our culture that I'm really interested in shifting because culturally we created it ourselves, I suppose, over hundreds of years. But what we have as a culture of self-neglect, just put everything out there on the line and don't acknowledge what you need to take care of yourself, we are seeing right now that that is not going to be sustainable. With 60% of physicians now reporting symptoms of burnout, 25% to 40%, depending on where you look, are reporting considering leaving the profession altogether.

Obviously, we need to make some changes. And what we're trying to do with THRIVE is to help people to have a fresh perspective on leadership with a concept of a new era of leadership, how we as leaders, all physicians are leaders, as we're leading teams we can help to facilitate a culture that is healthier for all of us, including our ourselves and our teams.

The idea is to empower physicians so that instead of having that sense of overwhelm, we can realize where we can make changes in our own lives. What can we change? What can we not change? And focus on what we can change. And then there's a financial part of it as well in terms of getting into a stable position financially so that you're coming from a point of power and confidence to be able to come back to the table and help change the culture of medicine in a positive way for everyone.

John: All right. I have a couple more questions, but I want to stop just for a second and say that we can find this at docworking.com. Correct? That's your website?

Dr. Jen Barna: Yes, docworking.com. And there's a button there on the homepage for THRIVE, where you can click and see more specifically about what we offer. You did ask me about the coaching and I apologize I didn't answer your question about the small group coaching, which is once a month currently. Although, the way we do it is as the group grows, we are adding more small group coaching sessions. And so, if you're in the group and you want to come to more than one session a month, you're welcome to come to any and all sessions. It's not limited to once a month.

And we are finding that some people really find value in coming to the small group coaching sessions. Some people are finding value in the courses. Some people are finding value in the Facebook group where the coaches are interacting and you can submit questions anonymously if you choose to. We have a lot of people who describe themselves as being introverted, so they don't want to come out and ask the question directly. They prefer to ask anonymously and the coaches will answer it in an anonymous way. It helps everybody.

John: Well, as far as the group coaching goes too, for those listeners who maybe have never done any kind of like a mastermind group or group coaching or anything like that, or support group, I don't want to call it that because this is not therapy. But the thing is you just attend, you don't even have to open your mouth because you just learn from the other questions that people are asking or the challenges they have, because most challenges are not really new challenges.

That's one of the reasons I like mastermind groups, although, in a mastermind group, everybody has to participate. I kind of like the situation sometimes where you have the option of participating, at least in the way I do my mastermind group. But anyway, that's awesome. You are kind of using all different techniques.

Dr. Jen Barna: We do give the option.

John: Yes. And they go to more in a month if they're happy to be more so that's cool. The other thing I want to suggest again to my listeners is I focus on nonclinical careers, of course, that's just so I can niche down and focus on one thing. But the reality is, I've talked to many coaches who, whether intentional or not, a huge percentage of the clients that are physicians end up going back to clinical medicine. Because they didn't know they could do something different clinically than what they're doing now. It sounds like you've definitely hit that group as well.

Dr. Jen Barna: Yeah. I love the concept of not having to just have one or the other. There's so much in between. And what's all of those options that are in between, that's a different choice for different people. But we as physicians have a lot of options, and from what I've seen of the people who are in THRIVE currently, I've witnessed people say at the beginning, "I feel like I need to leave medicine. I don't know what else to do." And then I've seen them over a relatively short amount of time say, "You know what? I'm rethinking that because this is part of who I am. And I don't really think I want to leave." There are ways to have it, as we say, have your cake, ice it and eat it too.

John: Nice. You kind of read my mind in answering a question I was going to pose about what have you learned from what's been going on and the people that have been through it. So, you just mentioned that one. Anything else you've learned or "aha" moments? I know just doing the podcast for me, I have all kinds of "aha" moments I didn't know that talking to different people. Either in the podcast or through THRIVE, anything else you've observed that you were surprised by?

Dr. Jen Barna: Well, if you listen to the podcast, you'll probably pick up on the fact that I'm learning literally as we are recording the podcast. First of all, I learned from the coaches, we record conversations and I'm sure you can hear that I'm just learning as we're talking because I have picked up much information. My kids are young adults and I talk with them about these concepts all the time. They're really universal concepts and I've had a lot of people reach out and say, "I'm not a doctor, but I love the concepts that you guys talk about."

So yes, I would say, I've picked up some really useful tips about ways to think about time and ways to manage time and how to focus and prioritize and understand that we only have a certain amount of time. To overbook yourself in a way that is not realistic is, ultimately, not helpful and puts you in a position of not being able to achieve what you think you should. But by the same token, you can achieve anything you put your mind to, but you really have to focus on that and prioritize it.

And the other thing I've really moved into the forefront of my mind that I've learned from the coaches is you have to prioritize your own wellness. And that's not something that I've ever been good at doing. That has been a mind shift for me as well.

John: Nice. Yeah. Those are good bits of advice from what you observed. It's true for everybody. If you don't put it on your calendar, it's probably not going to happen. I do emails every day. It's kind of stupid and crazy. But one of them I did recently was like, okay, if you want to start a habit to be healthier, here's what you have to do. Number one put it on your calendar. It's not going to happen unless you do that.

Dr. Jen Barna: Yes, I read your emails.

John: Yeah. I want to know before we go because we're going to have to end soon here. Any last bits of advice for my listeners, you kind of have a sense of the audience and a lot of them, they may be burned out, they may be just frustrated or just not happy with what they're doing. So, what would you like to tell them before we go?

Dr. Jen Barna: I would say, number one, you're not alone. You may feel isolated, but you are not alone. The struggles that you are going through are personal and I'm sure they do differ from individual to individual, but probably you may be surprised at how many of us are going through similar struggles.

And secondly, I would suggest and challenge people to be part of the change in our medical culture by getting themselves in the driver's seat of their own life. And I say that coming from a place where I've felt very overwhelmed before, and I'm very familiar with that sense of overwhelm that makes you feel like you have to make decisions based on that. You can get to a place that you don't have when you start to sort out what you can control and what's outside of your control. And it's not all black and white, there's a lot in between.

John: That is good advice and good comments. The thing about doing it for yourself is you then become a model for other people. That in itself can change the culture. And getting back to what you were talking about earlier about being leaders in doing this, well, it starts by modeling it.

I remember way back when I was still in med school, I saw an OB-GYN who worked part-time, he was happy. He loved his patience. He was never overworked, and he was like the perfect role model, but I never did follow up on how he did that. But when you see something like that, it really sticks, and maybe you can come back to that and this is something that can help. Oh, we forgot to mention too, that Jen has given us a little boost here, a little opportunity to try THRIVE at a little reduced rate, which is nice. I think you said that if they go in there, they like what they see, they decide they're going to sign up, and they can use a coupon code TWENTYOFF.

Dr. Jen Barna: Yes. And it's spelled out T-W-E-N-T-Y O-F-F.

John: Okay. I'll put a reminder in the show notes too, but if you're in there and you say this really looks for me and oh, I can get twenty off, then I'm going to use a coupon code TWENTYOFF. That's fantastic. I appreciate that.

Dr. Jen Barna: Yes. And I appreciate you being in the group. The current cohort of THRIVE members is just full of really phenomenal people. And having that support from other physicians to find out "What did you do? How are you doing that?" is really valuable in and of itself.

John: I've done some of the courses. I've got to sign up for one of those monthly group meetings.

Dr. Jen Barna: There's one next week.

John: I'll look for that. Awesome.

Dr. Jen Barna: Yeah. I hope to see you there.

John: All right, Jen. Thank you very much for being here today. I've really enjoyed it. I think the listeners have learned a lot. We will have to catch up again sometime down the road.

Dr. Jen Barna: Definitely, John. Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak with you. I love your podcast. I recommend it on my podcast, which is DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast. And listening in the near future you will hear Dr. John Jurica as a guest on DocWorking.

John: Yes, that was fun too. All right. Thank you, Jen. Take care and bye-bye.

Dr. Jen Barna: Thank you.

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How Do I Hire a Suitable Physician Career Coach or Consultant? – 215

John Jurica — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 09:30:15 +0000

Part 1 – Coaches Featured on the PNC Podcast

Podcast listeners ofter ask about engaging a physician career coach. They have heard that coaching can substantially improve the chances of finding a nonclinical career.

Today's episode is Part 1 of my discussion of physician career coaches and how to hire one.

I have spoken on the podcast in the past about what coaching is, and how it differs from mentorship, online courses, and other career resources. I have interviewed approximately 40 coaches. Most of them are career coaches.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Which Physician Career Coach Is Suitable for You?

We'll start by listing the career coaches who have appeared on the podcast. As noted in the discussion, some of them have special expertise that can be helpful. I have included a link to each episode below.

A coach is an expert who is hired to help you solve a certain problem, for example, to find a new job. – Dr. John Jurica

Physician Career Coach Guests

Here is a list of the 23 physician career coaches, who are physicians themselves, who have appeared on the Physician Nonclinical Career Podcast:

Michelle Mudge-Riley
Heather Fork
Maiysha Clairborne
Laura McKain
Dike Drummond
Starla Fitch
Marjorie Stiegler
Jarret Patton
Mike Woo-Ming
Dianne Ansari-Winn
Michelle Bailey
Errin Weisman
Francis Yoo (soul coach)
Jonathan Vitale (home-based careers)
Jattu Senesie
Yvonne Ator
Ryan Bayley
Randall (Randy) Cook
Nerissa Kreher (pharma)
Stephanie Freeman (locums)
Mario Mendoza (biotech careers coach)
Nana Korsah
Charmaine Gregory

[BONUS Physician Coach: Andrew Tisser. He has interviewed me twice but has not been a guest on the PNC Podcast. I plan to bring him onto the podcast soon. – JJ]

Nonphysician Coaches

Here are two, very capable nonphysicians who coach physicians:

Charlotte Weeks
Marsha Caton

As you can see, the number of experienced physician career coaches is large and growing. Luckily, a career as a physician coach is fulfilling and popular.

Next Week's Episode

Part 2 of this discussion will be presented next week. In it, I will list the three directories that offer lists of physician coaches. And, I will describe my advice on how to find, evaluate, and hire your own coach.

Summary

A physician career coach can be a valuable partner in your career transition. In the past, coaches were sometimes difficult to find. Now there are many well-trained and successful coaches available. Therefore, it is often worthwhile to hire a physician career coach to help advance your career.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

Links for Today's Episode:

“Iconic” Physician Coaches

“Recently” Discovered

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 215

How Do I Hire a Suitable Physician Career Coach or Consultant?

John: Today I want to respond to listeners who send me emails asking about coaches. I get a lot of these really. Usually there are questions encompassing one or more of these concerns - Should I use a coach? Where do I find a coach? A coach is expensive. What do they usually charge? Do you recommend certain coaches?

I've spoken on the podcast in the past about coaching and how it fits in with mentors and online courses. And in the process of doing the podcast, I have interviewed approximately 40 coaches, although not all of them were career coaches, which is what I'm focusing on today. And some of the coaches also came on to talk about a topic completely different from coaching. So, we'll get into that in a little bit.

Since I'm not a certified coach and I don't provide regular coaching myself at the present time, I don't want to lead you as strained to your decision to hire a coach. But after observing my coaching colleagues, what they do and the great results they get, I do have some opinions about whether to engage and how to engage a coach.

Now, the first thing I want to do is define this topic of coaching, what is coaching. Just giving people advice is not coaching. Being a mentor is not the same as being a coach. And I've written about that and talked about that before. And in a nutshell, a mentor is usually free, usually informal, it could be ongoing. And a mentor is usually there to provide free direction advice, have you avoided landmines, and is really geared towards your growth and development long term.

A coach on the other hand is usually a paid person who may have certain certifications, who is engaged to help you solve a certain problem. Just like an athletic coach, a swing coach for tennis or golf or pitching coach or something like that, they're usually going to focus on a certain thing. What we're talking about is coaches who are focused on careers mostly. Although in the physician world, we have burnout coaches, wellness coaches, life coaches, business coaches, professional coaches, career coaches. There are probably at least six other designations. And many of these actually overlap quite a bit.

But let me quote something I pulled off the Physician Coaching Alliance website. I hope they don't mind. It's a definition that incorporates part of the International

Coaching Federation or ICF. Let me read that to you.

"Broadly a coach supports his or her clients as a work through a problem or issue. More specifically, a coach creates time and space for an individual or group to increase awareness and clarity around their habits and strengths to move towards a more idealized vision of themselves.

The International Coaching Federation defines coaching as "partnership with clients in a thought provoking and creative process that inspires them to maximize their personal and professional potential, which is particularly important in today's uncertain and complex environment".

A coach is different from a counselor, mentor or therapist. A coach guides a client through a process of self-discovery. However, the client, not the coach, is in the area to be coached on. The coach is there to act as a mirror for the client".

That's the end of the quote from the Physician Coaching Alliance. I think it's a good definition and it's kind of the classic version of a coach, which is almost like a therapist. It's more than mentoring. It's distinct from consulting and it's not therapy. But notice how the definition includes language that sounds like therapy. It makes it sound like the growth is going to come from within the coachee, it's not coming from advice or a direct list of things to do by the coach. As you get more directive, I think that fits the definition of a consultant a little bit more than of a coach.

But anyway, the other thing is that therapy is used to treat an illness obviously, and coaching is used to actualize a client, assist them in reaching a professional or personal goal or help them overcome a problem. The terminology can get confusing at times because you may have heard there are career coaches, consultants and career strategists. And I'm not sure whether that moniker makes much difference really. People will use it in different ways. And I guess I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

What is important is whether you can find a coach, if you decide to use one that really aligns with what you need, your personality and has the skills to help you advance your career. So, you need to use one that aligns with your values basically, and also has a personality that aligns with yours.

One of the things that I can do that might help you to find a coach is to provide you a list of the coaches that I've interviewed, because I can't vouch for them to some extent. And the other thing is if you're looking for a coach and you'd like to hear the philosophy of a coach, or at least hear them talk and see them and or hear their voice and get a sense of how they relate to people in a conversation, then by all means that might be helpful as you're looking to select a coach.

I've got a list I'm going to go through today. I've checked and confirmed that each of them is still coaching, at least until recently. You never know when things are going to change. And for each of those that I mentioned today, I'm going to put a link so you can go and link to that episode and listen to it if you like.

I think listening to the interview will help you to learn a little bit more about that coach or consultant. And realize again that during the interview, we may not be talking about coaching specifically. We may be talking about a topic that is tangential to coaching because some of the coaches are experts in different areas, and that's why I brought them on the podcast. But invariably, we're usually at least talking a little bit about the kind of coaching they do and what they look for in terms of aligning with their clients when they are coaching, but not in all cases.

So, here's a list of the coaches I believe you might check out after maybe listening to the podcast episodes. I apologize before we get started to anybody that has been on my podcast once or maybe twice even. I don't think I missed anybody that has been on twice, but if you're a coach and you're doing career coaching and I didn't include you is because I'm under the impression maybe that you're mostly doing wellness coaching or burnout coaching, or some other version of coaching. So, I'm happy if you contact me, call me, or send me an email at john.jurica.md@gmail.com. Let me know that I missed you, and I will be happy to add you on my blog. I'd be happy to mention you in one of my upcoming podcasts, let's put it that way.

So, here's a list of about 20 or so that I can go down and just make a comment about each one. And let's see if this rings a bell, or if any of these would relate to you and work with you in a good way.

Michelle Mudge-Riley is one of the longest working coaches around. These are all physicians the next 20 or so that I'm going to list after Michelle Mudge-Riley. I don't think she does a lot of individual coaching now. She does at least two or three online or live conferences a year. Physicians Helping Physicians - phphysicians.com is her website. She has been around a long time and she has helped a lot of people.

Heather Fork, she is iconic also in coaching. She has been doing it for at least 10 years. She has been on my podcast at least twice. She and I are pretty good friends. We have a lot in common. She creates a lot of good things and I refer her to people all the time. She has gotten into podcasting lately. I think Michelle Mudge-Riley also has a podcast. She has something that she sells for helping you write a resume, which is awesome.

Maiysha Clairborne, of course. I've had her on my podcast two or three times. She has her own podcast. She has done a lot of coaching. She does consulting, she does courses. She is an expert in basically branding and Facebook Ads and building an online business. She's got a new podcast that I mentioned an episode or two ago. She is a great one to look for resources, although she still does some one-on-one coaching. She also teaches people mainly doing coaching and or NLP, which is Neuro Linguistic Programming and mind mapping, she calls it. There is a lot going on with Maiysha.

Laura McKain, the founder of the Physician Nonclinical Careers Hunters Facebook group. She is doing coaching now more than ever because she retired from her pharma job. Although I think she's still doing consulting. She's got the Facebook group and she's expanding that and really spending more time on that. She's an expert in resume writing and she does a lot of that with people. And I actually have a recent episode just released a week or two ago with her.

Dike Drummond. He has been on the podcast once. It's been a long time, but he was fascinating. And most of you know him as The Happy MD. He also tends to associate with other coaches that are on his list of referrals where you can go at his website, which I'll talk about in a minute. He is a coach that focuses on really helping physicians stay in their practice. Most of his coaching clients have been able to stay in practice. Now they may have changed to a different practice, different location or different type of practice but he has been very successful and he's well known. He's been around for a long time.

Starla Fitch is another physician coach for physicians who's been around a long time. I've referred several people to her, so you can look her up. She is often in the Facebook group interacting with many of these people that I've mentioned so far.

Marjorie Stiegler. She hasn't been around quite as long. She does some individual coaching, I believe. She has courses, she is devoted a lot to careers though, and she focuses a lot on pharma careers.

Jarret Patton. Jarret is a great guy, a great coach, and a great physician. He tends to focus on those things that are related more to the legal or license related. If a physician really is forced to stop practicing for some reason, although he works with everybody really. He has written a book "Licensed to Live". His podcast is "Licensed to Live". He had a conference in Philadelphia recently where I spoke. Again, listen to his podcast. He's one that will do some individual coaching as well.

Now I'm going to list Mike Woo-Ming here. Mike and I kind of see eye to eye on this next topic I'm going to talk about for a minute. He likes to call himself more of a consultant than a coach. It's a fuzzy line. And I think I tend to fall on the consulting side more than the coaching side, meaning that I think both of us tend to want to get into the "how to" make changes and "how to" move your careers forward.

And particularly for him, careers involved in entrepreneurship and starting your own practice, cash-based practices, things like that. And if you need a plan, he's going to tell you the plan to follow and the process to follow to be successful. Now that's a little bit different from a classically trained coach who will use more of a therapy-like approach in terms of asking you questions and getting you to think more and to develop your own "Aha" moments. But again, all coaches and consultants do a little bit of both.

Mike Woo-Ming also has a directory I'm going to mention in a minute. His resources can be quite helpful. I don't think he does a ton of one-on-one coaching, although he does a lot of consulting still, depending on how you wanted to define that.

Dianne Ansari-Winn actually is another one that has been around for years. She has written a book, she has been coaching for a long time, and now she is teaching others how to coach as well. I had her on the podcast not too long ago.

Michelle Bailey. Now I'm moving more into the physicians who are a little bit in that second wave of coaches. The first 9 or 10 are concerned to be more seasoned. They're not really that old, but this next group is really some more recent physician coaches. Now they're all very experienced. We're talking anywhere from three to five years and they've been around and done a lot of work, but I'm moving into that. Michelle Bailey is one who was a pediatrician. She has been on the podcast and she's certainly working with individual physicians and working on their careers.

Errin Weisman is an excellent coach. She has at least two podcasts that she does. She also runs a directory or a group of her own. I guess I shouldn't say it's hers. I'm not sure exactly the structure of it, but she happens to be the CEO of it right now. And I'll talk about that in a minute, but she's an excellent coach and she's got a great, like I said, a podcast or two.

Andrew Tisser. He has been on my podcast at least twice. He's definitely a career coach. He does a lot of work with physicians moving from burnout to overcoming the mindset issues and really moving out of clinical medicine into nonclinical. But he'll help physicians with any kind of transition related to their career. Many of these physicians will do that.

I have to mention Francis Yoo. He calls himself a coach of the soul. He definitely helps physicians' transition. He tends to spend more time on finding meaning in life and that kind of thing, but he definitely can help you if you need a coach to help move you from a really unfulfilling and unsatisfying career to one that brings you more joy.

Jonathan Vitale is another one. He is actually trained as a therapist. I think he's got a degree and maybe is even licensed as a therapist in the past. But he uses that knowledge and his work as a family physician to help physicians. He's got a large Facebook group. He tends to focus a little bit more on home-based careers, which is what his Facebook group is about, but I think he can help with almost any career transition.

Ryan Bayley, I've known him for two or three years. I have interviewed him and was introduced to him by Michelle Mudge-Riley. He's a physician who has been doing a lot of professional and business coaching for physicians, but he also does career coaching. And he also addresses burnout and provides training for hospitals and large institutions to help prevent physician burnout. But he's definitely an advocate for physicians.

Randall Cook, or Randy Cook. I met him through the DPN, the Doctor Podcast Network. He's a fellow podcaster and he works at a coaching company. So, you can look up his episode and if you like what he does, you can contact him. I think he's definitely taking new clients.

Dr. Nerissa Kreher. She's in the pharma industry. She tends to focus on that, but she's an excellent coach and she has courses and coaching and different programs for physicians who want to move into pharma. As does Mario Mendoza, although he calls himself a biotech careers coach, but a lot of that is in pharma. And he does an excellent job as well. You can listen to his very interesting story.

Stephanie Freeman. She's a career coach. She tends to focus a lot on locums. And you'll find that if you listen to the episode. She is really a promoter of locums as sort of a lifestyle choice and an alternative for physicians, but she'll help anybody that needs career assistance, career strategies.

Nana Korsah. Another doctor nephrologist who has done a lot of different things. She has been coaching for several years. And so, you might want to listen to that episode.

Charmaine Gregory. I interviewed her way back three or four years ago. She is still speaking and coaching and writing and podcasting. And I think she falls more in the category of wellness and life coach, but she also helps with career transition.

I've also interviewed at least two people who are coaches for physicians who they're not physicians. One is Charlotte Weeks. I think I've interviewed her at least twice. She's also presented in my Nonclinical Career Academy. Basically, she is a career coach and resume expert. She has got multiple certifications. She has helped many physicians, but she also helps other professionals. If you go to that episode, you can get all the details or in the show notes.

And then Marsha Caton. She is a recent guest who is a PhD and works in pharma and she helps physicians and other professionals move into pharma jobs if they're not already in those. And I assume that includes people like pharmacists and other PhDs, but definitely physicians are her expertise. She's got a particular way to help physicians make that transition.

Those are the main ones I can really think of today. And you know what? I actually have a whole lot more to say on this topic, and I think it's going to go too long. So, I am going to stop at that point. And then I will pick this up in episode number 216 a week from now, and I'll finish it up.

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The post How Do I Hire a Suitable Physician Career Coach or Consultant? – 215 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Top Reasons Why Coaching Is So Essential for Healthcare Leaders – 197

John Jurica — Tue, 25 May 2021 10:15:06 +0000

Interview with Dr. Randall (Randy) Cook

Dr. Randall (Randy) Cook explains to us why coaching is so essential for health care leaders. His father was a coach. He has been coached. And now he is coaching others.

Randy is a respected clinician, educator, and organizational leader. He holds board certifications from the American Board of Surgery and the American Board of Preventive Medicine. He is certified by the American Professional Wound Care Association and the American Board of Wound Management.

Randy has succeeded in multiple practice settings from solo practitioner to single-specialty group to large multispecialty clinic. During those clinical years, he served as Chairman of the Department of Surgery, President of the Medical Staff, and Trustee for Jackson Hospital in Montgomery, Alabama. More recently, he was the medical director of the Jackson Wound & Hyperbaric Medicine Center.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Why Coaching Is So Essential for Healthcare Leaders

The many years of clinical, managerial, and leadership experience have provided Randy with invaluable insight into medicine and medical practice management. Randy integrates his clinical, management, and leadership experiences in his current role as Senior Executive Physician Coach at MD Coaches.

The object of the game… is to help them discover where their their strengths are, and to figure out ways to exploit those.

In this interview, Randy describes his clinical career and transition to coach and podcaster. He also explains his approach to coaching and why coaching is so essential for practicing physicians and physician leaders.

Prescription for Success Podcast

You absolutely must listen to the Prescription for Success Podcast. Each week, Randy interviews interesting guests who address important topics affecting the very nature of healthcare and medical practice.

And if you’d like to get a FREE copy of the REPORT from Randy and MDCoaches that I mentioned during our discussion (Nine Decisive Actions You Can Take Today to Be a Better Physician and Leader), simply go to mymdcoaches.com/doctor.

[And, within the next few weeks, I will be a guest on an episode of Randy's show. – JJ]

Summary

You can learn more about MD Coaches at mymdcoaches.com, and about the Prescription for Success Podcast at rxforsuccesspodcast.com.

And please go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/voicemessage and tell us all about something on the podcast that has inspired or helped you, and the positive impact it had. Add a shout-out to a particular guest, if you like. And optionally, include your name and mention your website, if you have one.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode that you can download or read.

Links for Today's Episode:

MD Coaches Website
Rx for Success Podcast
Nine Decisive Actions You Can Take Today to Be a Better Physician and Leader
Dr. Randy Cook's LinkedIn Page
Email for Dr. Randy Cook: randall.cook@mymdcoaches.com

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription - PNC Podcast Episode 197

Top Reasons Why Coaching Is So Essential for Healthcare Leaders

John: Today we have a fine example of one of my doctor podcast network colleagues who's also a senior executive physician coach. I want to hear a lot about that. Dr. Randy Cook, welcome to the PNC podcast.

Dr. Randy Cook: Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a great pleasure to meet with a fellow podcaster.

John: It is fun, but then I always end up comparing myself to other people like, "Oh, this podcaster does this so much better than me, or they've got a better voice than me". But it's great to talk to other podcast hosts and I'm really happy to have you here. And I think it'll be fun.

Dr. Randy Cook: I bet it will be. I'm looking forward to it.

John: And I know that particularly from listening to your episodes because you're an excellent interviewer who seems very inquisitive, very interested.

Dr. Randy Cook: I'm nosy.

John: Yeah. Tell us how did you acquire those skills?

Dr. Randy Cook: Believe it or not, by the time I got into my early teens, I was pretty sure that I was going to go to medical school. And when I turned 16, I had the opportunity to go to work in a small market radio station in East Central Alabama. And I found it to be very agreeable. I liked the work. It was a lot of fun for a lot of reasons. And briefly, I thought, "Well, maybe this might be something that I could do". I even kind of had an interest in sports broadcasting, but I had the presence of mind to kind of look around at other people in the business. And most of them, the great, great, great majority of them were kind of having a hard time making ends meet. And I thought, "Well, this was a nice youthful endeavor, a time for me to get busy and get trained to do something that'll make a living for me". So, that's the story.

John: Excellent. Because I thought I heard in one of your episodes where I read somewhere that you had some experience in radio, but when I went to your LinkedIn profile and I started looking around, I couldn't find any proof of it.

Dr. Randy Cook: Oh, it's way back. And interestingly, the oddest things happened. There is a Facebook group that I'm a member of called "Forgotten Alabama". And people put up pictures of these old broken-down homes and caving in churches and graveyards and things of that nature. And one day I'm thumbing through there and I looked and I saw the crumbling down radio station where I used to work. It's funny.

John: Very funny, very interesting that that would show up on a Facebook page.

Dr. Randy Cook: I know.

John: All right. Well, we want to hear more about what happened after the radio experience in terms of briefly your education and then what you did, primarily clinically, and then segue into what you're doing in more recent years.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, I'm going to abbreviate that as best as I can. We're talking about 44 years' worth of work here. I grew up in the small town south in an area similar to where I live now and moved to the big city of Birmingham to get my undergraduate education and also medical school. I got my MD at what is now the University of Alabama at Birmingham. And I knew early on that I wanted to go into surgery and decided to do my residency at the Medical College of Georgia in Augusta for no other reason than I thought it would be a cool place to be. It's kind of a smallish town as well. And I thought, "Gee, it might be nice to be able to go and see the masters". And I actually worked in the first state station out there for three consecutive years at the masters. So that was really cool.

John: That's nice.

Dr. Randy Cook: Unlike a lot of really successful people, I have never been a long-term planner. When I entered my fifth year of residency, I really didn't have a plan about what I was going to do. And one of the former faculty members at the medical college of Georgia on the surgery faculty had left about the time I started my chief residency and within about six weeks or eight weeks, I think he called me and he said, "I'm in Clearwater, Florida. I'm in a place where I've got more business than I can do. Big multi-specialty group. The partners want me to bring on another surgeon right away and I can hold it down until you can get here if you can give me your commitment right now". So that was it. That was how I lined up my first clinical practice.

And I kind of did things in reverse order. I started life in a gigantic multi-specialty group. I won't even begin to go into the details because it just takes too long, but I decided to move back home to Alabama. I joined a small surgical group, which dissolved after about five years. And then I found myself as a solo practitioner, during the last years of my surgical life. And then I was asked by a hospital administrator to consider opening a wound care center and hyperbaric medicine center in our hospital.

And it was a good time to do that for a lot of reasons. I needed to get out of the emergency room call and so forth. But I started a really intensive reeducation process. A lot of people that go into these wound care clinics will go to a one-week course and they just pick up the paycheck. But I got really serious about it, I got involved in management and got involved in wound care education. I got board certified in hyperbaric medicine. And that was what I did for the last years of my practice.

John: It sounds less intense than a surgical out of residency type of practice, but still extremely important in clinical and using many of your surgical skills.

Dr. Randy Cook: It was much less intense than surgery and from the standpoint of the day-to-day urgency, but the professional satisfaction was just profound. Whereas in surgery, you meet patients, you do an operation on, you get them through it, and then they're gone. They're out of your life forever. But chronic wound care is quite the opposite of that. You see people week after week after week, sometimes for years. And it was profoundly satisfying. I'm really glad I had an opportunity to do that.

John: Yeah. That sounds like the kind of things that an internist or family doctor does is part of their practice in terms of just a long-term relationship and you really get to know people. But ultimately you had to leave or you chose to leave that and you've been doing some other things and I'm really interested in how you became involved as a coach with MD coaches and then how that tied into the podcast.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, like everything else in my life, as I mentioned before, I'm not much of a planner. I hadn't really intended to retire quite so early. I was not that early. I was 67 years old, but frankly, I just got mad and quit. And I didn't have any plan other than to do what retired people do. I had met Rhonda Crowe, who is the CEO of MD Coaches several years before. My wound center was under the management of a big company called Healogics. I was on their teaching faculty for many years instructing these people that were coming to learn how to be wound care specialists. And so, we knew each other through that professional connection.

And I guess about seven or eight or nine months before I made that decision that I was going to pull the plug, Rhonda called me out of the blue and said, "I'm starting this coaching company and I want to publicize it with a podcast. And I know you have a history in radio. Would you consider doing that?" And my response was "Rhonda, do you know that my radio experience was concurrent with the invention of the vacuum tubes?" She said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that, but this is what I want to do".

So, that's how both of those things came to be. She was looking for people that she thought would be qualified coaches. And she thought that if for no other reason, my 44 years of experience might qualify me for that. And she thought I'd be good for the podcast. So, we did it.

John: So, what's the experience been? Let's start with the coaching and then we'll get to the podcast.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, the coaching is still, very much, in the startup phase, and involves a significant amount of additional education. It's not something that I think a person can do just because they think they might be a good mentor confidant or whatever. There are some things to be learned about coaching. And so, I enrolled in a course that I could do remotely and got myself certified as a coach.

We have hired two additional physician coaches as well. And we were about to hire a fourth. What we need now are more clients. It's still very much in the startup phase, but it is a very satisfying way to kind of take advantage of the experience that you've accumulated in the past and see if you can enrich somebody else's life with the benefit of your experience.

John: Now, I've talked to many coaches over the years, and physician coaching has become a very popular nonclinical job or career. But of course, there are different types of coaching. I kind of get the idea that MD Coaches is focusing more on the leadership, executive. I mean, there's definitely a huge need for executive coaches. They've been around for years and are the most really aggressive CEOs and CFOs. They use coaching quite a bit, but physicians don't typically. But I would say it's important and particularly the physician leaders could use coaching in many circumstances. And so, I want your opinion on that in your experience and what you've learned on that.

Dr. Randy Cook: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I'm trying not to sound too arrogant. I think a person like me is in a really unique position to help new physicians understand the feeling of incredible frustration that they have, and they do. All this talk that we hear about burnout is there I think because of the world that they thought that they were coming into, the healing arts turns out to be nothing like what they're experiencing. And it is absolutely clear to me that the reason for that is, whereas the situation that existed when I started my practice, was that, if you were hospital connected or hospital-based in any way if there was a decision to be made, even remotely clinical, the administrators came to the physicians and said, "What should we do?" And the physician spoke. And then that became the policy.

What has happened in the evolution, over the last four and a half decades since I began my practice is the physicians have become employees and people that go to business school, see employees as not an asset, but as overhit.

And as we all know, the value of a physician, particularly in hospital practice has come under great scrutiny. If the physicians are widgets and the physician widgets costs 100 Bitcoin or whatever you want to name per year, and they provide a service that creates revenue, but then along comes a nurse practitioner that you can get for far less Bitcoin. And even though they may not be as productive, their overhead is so much lower that they seem like a very attractive alternative. Well, this is the world that we live in. And in addition to that, there are countless other areas of clinical decision-making that should be made by physicians that are not simply because the people in the C-suite feel that it's their job and their privilege because of their position to make those decisions.

Well, my opinion, and I think I reflect the opinion of those who work with me at MD Coaches, is that we need to reassert our authority and make these people understand the areas where they should remain silent and have some respect for the wisdom of acquired clinical experience. So that's what we're trying to create. And that is by coaching particularly young physicians, help them understand to speak the language of business, and become more persuasive in their efforts to make medical care better for the patient.

John: Well, I think you're right on what you're doing and the goal of that whole process, because I was a CMO for 15 years at a hospital setting, and I watched it if you go back far enough up the half of the hospitals in the US were owned by physicians. That was in the 1950s, and over time that went away because it became complex, it got expensive and you've had all these changes.

But I think you're right and I observed this quite a bit is that physicians were no longer looked at as the professional. Just that part of it, they are looked at more as an employee, as a commodity. And I think some of these people that were running the organizations, that are running the organizations don't really understand the risk that they're getting into putting non-physicians making decisions about patients that can go wrong in a minute. So, we haven't seen that, although I've personally seen the increase in lawsuits against nurse practitioners and PAs, so there was a period of time when that didn't happen.

Dr. Randy Cook: I think we're going to see a lot more of that, no question. But in the meantime, the other thing that I would like to see recognized is that it is critically important with respect to the ethical responsibility that we have as physicians that patients receive the best care that they can possibly receive. And there is just not any conceivable way that a non-medically trained CEO of any sort can make those decisions without input from a fully medically trained individual. And we at MD Coaches want to make those people available.

John: Yes. And I think it's very doable, very doable. And as physicians recognize they need to get involved. They need to take some of those leadership positions. It's been demonstrated that the quality is better with organizations that have more physicians in leadership positions, but a lot of us aren't ready to do that. And if you can help foster that in physicians who have the other skills it's going to work out great in the long run.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, we certainly hope so. And one of the things that I've noticed particularly over the last 10 to 15 years is that we find that there are physicians coming into putative leadership roles, but they don't really advocate for the physicians. They come to their physician colleagues and they say, "Well, now you just don't understand, this is a business. We've got to do it this way". And we just can't have that. The responsibility is too profound. The ethics are well-established and we need to be there for the patients.

John: Yeah. And I think that those skills can be learned, how to be an advocate for the patients yet still maintain your position as a member of a senior executive team and just make the whole situation better.

Dr. Randy Cook: That's what we're trying to do.

John: So now this organization that you're with had the wisdom to say, "You know what? We need to get the word out somehow". Well, we could write about it, we could do a blog or a newsletter, but a podcast sounds a lot more fun.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, it has been for me.

John: And really, it's becoming a very popular platform. So, yeah. What do you think about that?

Dr. Randy Cook: I'm having a lot of fun with it. I like to pick people's brains and we have had just amazingly interesting people. Obviously, over a lengthy career, I've had the opportunity to sit around in doctor's lounges and have conversations with physicians all my life. And of course, they do all have an uninteresting story to tell. And if you enlarge the pool that you select from, you find that you can have some just amazing conversations.

My vocabulary betrays me when I try to talk about the kinds of individuals that we've had on the show. Mustafa was a kid that grew up in Lebanon during the Civil War. He walked to school every day with people being shot before his eyes and being run over by tanks and those kinds of things. He came to this country, he had just enough money in his pocket to get from Tel Aviv to New York City. He did not speak a word of English. And the day after he arrived, he was on the streets of New York selling umbrellas. And he completely sold out his inventory and it wasn't even raining and he couldn't speak a word of English.

John: That's crazy.

Dr. Randy Cook: This guy is now a world-renowned interventional cardiologist. And there's just story after story like that, that takes my breath away.

John: Yeah. They're very inspiring for sure. And it's just crazy what people can do if they set their mind to it. But physicians, I don't want to brag here or anything, I'm a physician.

Dr. Randy Cook: Go ahead.

John: Physicians are the most interesting people. You think you know what a physician is. Oh, someone who went to school, had everything paid for, and is just coasting now. And number one, people don't understand the stress that physicians are under, but they also don't understand all the varied backgrounds that people come from as they get into this career.

Dr. Randy Cook: Yeah. I've had that very same observation. In fact, I have commented on it in my blog from time to time, and that is people who don't live in the medical world have this idea that there is a particular personality type that populates the world of medicine. And it couldn't be further from the truth. There are as many different personality types as there are individuals, and they've all got a story to tell and I really get a kick out of telling it.

John: Well, I can tell when I listen, because you're very inquisitive. You have a lot of great questions and I can sense the history and radio coming out a bit in those interviews. So, I think it's great.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, I can't even begin to say how grateful that I am, that I had something to fill the space when I walked away suddenly from my practice because, as I said, it came on quite a bit more suddenly than I had anticipated, but it's a great fit for me, I think. And I'm going to keep on doing it for a while.

John: Good, we're glad. So, it sounds like not only the podcast but working with MD Coaches has been fun, and building this coaching service is interesting and kind of keeping you motivated to get up every day and do that as well as everything else you might be doing when you're not doing that.

Dr. Randy Cook: That's exactly right. As I say, we are continuing to build our stable of coaches and attempting to build a base of clients. And we look forward, as rewarding as the conversations that I'm having with physicians in all different areas of practice. I'm really looking forward to maybe helping some young people turn this thing around. We have seen it kind of going south for a very long time. If I could live long enough and have enough of an influence to see that shift start to turn around, it would really be a terrifically rewarding experience for me. So that's what I intend to do.

John: That's great. Now I'm doing something I probably shouldn't do as a host and an interviewer. I want to go back to something earlier, but we're talking about coaching right now and the need for coaching for physicians. And as we spoke about earlier, this has been something that's commonly seen in business. A lot of CEOs and CEOs and others get regular executive-level coaching. So, I did promise myself I was going to ask you, in your opinion, what really are the benefits of that sort of coaching, whether to an executive that's not a physician or is a physician in your opinion?

Dr. Randy Cook: I am the son of a coach. My dad was an athletic coach. My big brother was an athletic coach. And I think what I've picked up from them is, if you're a coach, your job is not to tell your protege what to do, how to do, how to get things accomplished. Your job is to help them discover and understand and develop the skills that they already have. We've all got different skills. So, I think you're making a mistake if you go to a client and say, "Well, look, this is what you're going to have to do if you're going to be successful as an executive".

The object of the game, in my opinion, and it is strictly my opinion, is to help them discover where their strengths are and then figure out ways to exploit those and make the best of them. So, if you're talking about executive coaching, which is what we concentrate on specifically within the healthcare world, the idea is to help people who possibly never have even thought about what their executive skills might be, help them discover those skills, and show them or guide them in such a way that they make the best use of those skills.

And you do that in two ways, I think. One is simply by listening to what they have to say. And the other thing is something that we take advantage of, and that is specialized testing to evaluate individuals and find out more about what their personality type is like, where their strengths are, where their weaknesses are. So, specialized personality inventories that are specifically designed to help people be more successful in executive positions are something that we absolutely will be taking advantage of.

John: That sounds very similar to what my experience was. The executive team at the hospital I worked at, we all went through multiple personality tests individually, and then we'd share things as a group and it would help us to learn how to interact with one another differently. And the physicians need the same kind of training and coaching to bring them up to that level so they can have those conversations.

Dr. Randy Cook: Absolutely.

John: Well, this has been very interesting, Randy. I appreciate you being here today. We're going to run out of time, give us the name of the company and the link, the URL for that, if you would.

Dr. Randy Cook: Sure. The company is MD Coaches, which can be found at mymdcoaches.com. And I would just absolutely be thrilled to death if people would check into my podcast from time to time. We release one every Monday, it's called Prescription for Success, and the website is rxforsuccesspodcast.com. It can be followed on Apple podcasts or any of the usual platforms. We have new episodes every Monday. And we'd love to have more listeners. And if there's somebody out there that thinks they would like to be a guest or they know who would be a good guest, we'd love to hear from them as well. And I can be contacted at randall.cook@mymdcoaches.com.

John: Excellent. And I think people can also learn a little bit more about you if they like from looking at your LinkedIn profile.

Dr. Randy Cook: Yeah. I am on LinkedIn. We're on LinkedIn, we're on Facebook, all that stuff.

John: Okay. Well, thank you very much, Randy. I appreciate you being here today. And with that, I will say goodbye.

Dr. Randy Cook: Thanks so much, John. It's been great.

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To Pursue Freedom Tomorrow You Must Imagine Your Eulogy Today – 192

John Jurica — Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:00:19 +0000

Interview with Dr. Francis Yoo

In today’s interview, Dr. Francis Yoo explains why we must imagine our eulogy in order to pursue freedom and meaning in our lives.

Francis is a born-and-raised New Yorker. He runs a part-time cash-pay, holistic-integrative private practice. And he helps physicians awaken to their potential, do soul-searching, inner work, and profound personal development. His goal is to help them find authentic meaning in their career, relationships, and life.

Francis completed his residency training in family medicine at the New York College of Osteopathic Medicine. He is board-certified in Family Medicine, Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine, and Pain Medicine.

He continued his formal training and certification in acupuncture, integrative medicine, and clinical homeopathy. Finally, he rounded out his coaching education by completing Seth Godin's altMBA program and becoming certified to administer the Myers Briggs Type Indicator and the Enneagram.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Pursue Freedom

After his formal medical training, Dr. Yoo chose to pursue his authentic life. He focused on integrating his medical training with Existential Philosophy and Eastern Perspectives. And he now uses that knowledge in his own personal development and with others.

The outer results are great, but it needs to be paired with this inner… journey. Don’t neglect this inner part of you. – Dr. Francis Yoo

More recently, he applied his skills and expertise to create a unique coaching program called Physician Search for Meaning.

How to Live Your Authentic Life

Francis provided us with a good example of how to find meaning during today's conversation. He asked us to imagine preparing our own eulogy or obituary using two perspectives. First, write it based on your life as it is being lived today. Then how it might sound if you were living your authentic life, focused on what is truly important to you.

He explains that by comparing the stories, you will gain insight into what is truly important and discover how to move closer to the idealized version of your life.

Summary

Francis finds his true meaning by practicing medicine part-time and coaching physicians to discover an authentic, fulfilled life. And he can help you to find your authentic life in his programs at www.drfrancisyoo.com.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode that you can download or read.

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Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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PNC Episode 192

To Pursue Freedom Tomorrow You Must Imagine Your Eulogy Today

John: Most physicians are lifelong learners, but today's guest has taken that to a whole new level. He's done a lot of learning, but he's also become certified in multiple fields of study. And he's recently been integrating those areas of expertise through his unique coaching programs to help his fellow physicians. So, Dr. Francis Yoo, welcome to the PNC podcast.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Thank you for having me. I really love that introduction, so thank you.

John: Hey, no problem. It's always a challenge. How shall I introduce this person? But I think that's an accurate one and the listeners will find out why in a minute. But yeah, usually when we get into the podcast, we just start with some of the backgrounds. I'm going to really try to keep it a little bit brief because I think your intro could be like 30 minutes alone. So, the education, the formal education. Hit on some of those certifications and additional training that you've done over the last decade or so.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah, actually I would start with my undergrad because it does play a part in what I do now. So, I double-majored in mathematics and philosophy while doing my pre-med. Then I got my degree, I did my training and a combined family medicine and osteopathic manipulation training. It was a four-year program where you get board eligible in two specialties. I got those two board certifications. I grandfathered into the integrative medicine board. I snuck in the year right before you needed to do the actual fellowship, the standardized fellowship. And also grandfathered into the osteopathic pain, additional qualification. And I also got my medical acupuncture certification licensing as well. And some other non-certification so far things I've done, cognitive behavior therapy, lifestyle medicine, and some other things. So those are my medical education pathways.

John: Okay. And then where did you take them? Did you go into practice right away doing some of those things? How did that flow?

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah. So, after my residency, I went into corporate clinical medicine right away and I put on more hats. I did a lot of different things besides working with residents and students seeing my own patients, mostly in the clinic, but some inpatient consultations. I also did GME work as associate program director, program director, vice-chair to the family medicine department for two years. And I also did some quality improvement projects after I got my Lean Six Sigma Green belt. So, I did a lot of different things and tried a lot of different things. Yeah, that's what I did for five years after residency.

John: All right. Now I feel like just sort of watching you from the sidelines and hearing some podcasts interviews and some other things that I think things seem to be coalescing at this point in some way. Because you've decided, "Okay, I'm going to continue to do some clinical work" and I want to hear more about that, the manipulation, the acupuncture if you're doing that. But you're definitely interested in something outside of the clinical practice now. So, maybe tell us a little bit about how you came to that conclusion and what balance you're trying to strike at this point.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah. That's a perfect word to coalesce what's going on. Basically, I got tired of all, not all, but a lot of things I was doing. The clinical practice structure. I basically quit my GME work, my hospital leadership work. I enjoyed it. I did it while I was there but I just needed to move on and do something else. I call it I've ruled out those things as future career choices I wanted to pursue.

So, I started my clinical practice, which is essentially totally non-pharmacological, non-interventional, manipulation, acupuncture, lifestyle medicine, where I get to really use all the things I've done inside and outside of medicine. And I have no intention of practicing more than one to two days a week ever. I know I like it, but I have plenty of other things I want to do.

And along the way I've done other stuff. I've self-published some books. I've also done medical file reviews and I dabbled in a lot of clinical and nonclinical things. But now, it's really focusing on using everything I've learned to help myself and help others in a way that's really rewarding, really elevates people's integrating their health, but got to have fun while doing it, enjoying my life work. But that also extends into my nonclinical work as well. We spoke briefly in the intro about the coaching aspects.

John: Okay. Well, tell us a little bit about the coaching aspects in more detail, and tell me where you are on that journey. Is it like where you want it to be? Is it influx? What's going on with that?

Dr. Francis Yoo: Not too long ago, I published a guest blog post on Kevin MD actually. I titled it "A Physician's Search for Meaning". And while I'm going through my whole life story, like any other teenager I was concerned with what I'm going to do or who I am. All those existential items, but it never really went away. So, I was very interested in philosophy, psychology, behavior. I became certified in a Myers-Briggs type indicator and the Enneagram and just this consistent continual learning about myself, what meaning is. And I realized a lot of times I was unhappy and I think a lot of other physicians may be unhappy. They just lack meaning in what they're doing. They may be good at it, but there's no meaning behind it. There's that mismatch there, which I think is tragic in a way.

So, my coaching is essentially focused on just that one thing. It's about that inner exploration about does my meaning match with my perception of what I'm doing? I know people talk about work-life balance, but I like to flip that around and say, it's about my life work, as opposed to saying balancing work and life. It's about my life work and helping other doctors find their life work.

And I recently rebranded. I tried different hats, different attire, but what really is meaningful to me, as I call it the physician search for meaning, and I call myself a soul coach. It's really about that soul searching that we don't do in school and training because that doesn't benefit the school or the training program. It only benefits the person who's getting that experience. So, yeah, that's what I'm doing.

And in terms of your question about where it is, it's fresh and I always like to update things because I'm constantly learning. I'm even considering studying more psychoanalysis and maybe pursuing psychoanalytic training. So, I get to just continually improve things and integrate things from everything to everything. Modern academics to ancient texts to whatever it may be. I'm just that deep and breadth kind of a knowledgeable person.

John: Well, that's helpful. A lot of us physicians, we're kind of concrete in a way and sort of like, "Okay, I need to be able to categorize something". It's life coaching. It's career coaching, soul searching. Now that is going to be a whole broad topic. So yeah, the soul coaching.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yes, yes. Exactly.

John: But I think there are a lot of people that I could think of right now that might really benefit from that.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah. And you talk to people doing all these courses. Learning about real estate for doctors and finances for doctors or career for doctors, all of them. A lot of them I see, the concern is this "why" question in there. What is your "why" to do this? But for me, I won't talk about that for 10 weeks or just really get to the bottom of it because I think it's just so important. Plus, it's what I'm just so excited to talk about.

John: Well, I want to go deeper into what this looks like for you because part of the purpose of this podcast is to inspire people and show physicians that you can create something that is in balance or that is fun and fulfilling and satisfying and has meaning. So, I

want to kind of get a picture for your day or your week, what that would look like and how you balance the actual work you're doing clinically and non-clinically.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah. So right now, my practice is two days a week. So, Mondays, and it's going to be Fridays. So, two days a week maximum. And where I'm in the office, physically with patients, it's just as a nature of my particular practice, manipulation, and acupuncture. It's just I would say impossible, really hard to do from a digital standpoint.

John: Let me stop you right there for a minute, if I can, only because I want to know what a typical visit is, like for, let's say a new patient that's coming in. Only because I want to really contrast it with what most physicians are doing.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah. So, I've adapted a lot of the online resources we have now. So first I do a 15-minute call, just to make sure they know who I am. They're not calling the wrong doctor Yoo, they're not looking for a doctor Woo. You found the right doctor Yoo. And then I told them, this is my price, this is how I work. And I let them know so that we're a good fit to work together, which is a model that I've seen other people use outside of medicine. So, it's a 5-to-10-minute conversation.

And then I set up a 30-minute history intake, whereas on the phone, I don't need them in front of me to do their history. Actually, it's easier if they're home, they have their meds, their records. It's like, "Oh, I don't know what meds I'm taking". Well, you're at home. Go to your cabinet and go look for them. And then I do my history. I write it all down. And then when they come into the office, it's just straight into the actual manipulation and acupuncture. My sessions are 45 minutes right now.

John: That just sounds so cool because I think of my attorney. I walk into the office. It's going to be an hour visit. I'm going to get charged for an hour and we're going to get everything they need from me. And they're not going to try and squeeze it into a 10-minute visit like most family physicians do. So, that's the part I'm really keying in on. And it's obviously going to be very more satisfying for you and for the patient because you've both come to that agreement to begin with. And the part about getting the interview at home, it just kills me because I'm still doing some urgent care and maybe I'll have like a 70-year-old Medicare patient walk in with something it's not even kind of appropriate for urgent care and they didn't bring any meds and have no list and I know there are at least 12 meds. It's crazy.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah, yeah. So, they're home. You don't know? Well, your records should be somewhere, go get them.

John: Yeah. Just go in the bathroom, pull out your badge where you keep them stored, and run them down. Well, what do you think? I like to think about how this can help other listeners right now, this aspect of it. Do you feel like that at least let's say a family physician, a pediatrician, or someone who is in private practice, maybe they have their own practice that is still kind of like churning the patients through? Do you feel like they could use this model, maybe adjust it and apply it to what they're doing?

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah. I think for me the need came out of, "I have no employees". So, I needed to maximize the efficiency using all these online resources, whether it's acuity, Calendly, scheduling automation, et cetera. So, it came out of necessity. And I learned from optimizing my calendar and my scheduling and all of this, to optimize the time that I'm there in the actual office with the patients. And it also helps me build rapport with patients because the best way to build rapport is just to listen. We all have the statistics, doctors don't listen or whatever. Sometimes they just talk for 20 minutes. I'm just typing out my history and I can ask them five questions and that's it. And I also don't like being rushed. So that's the other reason I do this.

But again, anything in medicine takes so long to catch up with any sort of innovation. Just look out there though that people are using technology in ways that are very useful. I just need to find ways to make it work. And sometimes it's that necessity that drives that innovation. So, there's some way to make it better. We just think, "Oh, this is fine. Why improve it?" So, there are definitely ways to make it better. Someone figured it out. It's just applying it to your situation.

John: Yeah. It's funny when you talk about just listening. It just reminds me that, sometimes if you just listen, you will get 99% of the information you need without necessarily directing the patient or the client in a certain way. So, that sounds awesome. It's very satisfying for you and it's also very satisfying for the patient because the biggest complaint of patients that I'm aware of is this doctor just doesn't listen and doesn't really know what's going on with me and then tells me to do something that doesn't really fit with my real problem.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah, definitely.

John: So now on the other side though, the coaching side. First of all, I want to mention your website it's drfrancisyoo.com, right?

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yes, that's it.

John: So, in case some of my listeners don't listen to the very end, go check it out because really everything you're doing is there more or less. And even you have a link to your practice. So that could be something they can look at and kind of model for their own practice, I would think. Okay. And this other side, one of the things that I heard you talked about in this coaching side and working with people as a coach was walking through this exercise of writing their own eulogy, which I don't know. I think I may have heard something, but it just struck me when you were talking about it. So, I'd like you to explain more about how one might do that and just walk us through it.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah. I'll explain the exercise in person, then describe what the intention is. So, it's a two-part exercise where you first can either write or deliver whether you're a verbal or written person, you can write or deliver your obituary eulogy, but based on your current lifestyle. Meaning if you continue to live the way you lived, not making changes, whether that is your home, your profession, your interest, where you spend your attention, and then how many years is in the future. Let's just say 90 just to be safe. And then what would people write or say about you? What is it that they would say?

But not just the niceties. Oh, they did all these nice things, but really getting down to the nitty-gritty of, "Oh, doctor Yoo at the age of 90, he was somewhat satisfied with his career and I guess his home relationships were okay, but they were not really quite exactly what he thought, he could have done better", et cetera. He accomplished a lot but he didn't really attend to some of his other interests or didn't go on his six-month sushi Hot Springs tour in Japan. It's basically explaining what life would be like if you continue to weigh on your current trajectory without being true to yourself.

And then the second version is, write your ideal, optimal, fulfill your purpose, fulfill your vision of pituitary eulogy. And so, Dr. Yoo was able to use all of his resources, his interest improved, his relationships, his inner health. He got to experience the things he wanted to do, help people the way he wanted. He didn't feel restricted by XYZ. Being general, but getting the flavor of it.

And then now you have these two separate stories. It's in front of you. You can't run away from it anymore. Then you compare them. This life that I could potentially live if I just keep living the way I'm doing without optimizing my soul and my life and my potential versus really exploring what's important to me, making that happen, and seeing that I would say for most or all people, there's going to be some discrepancy. And it's sitting with that discrepancy and saying, "Oh, there is something I'm not allowing myself to take advantage of in my life". Then it sets off this existential quandary in a good way to let you know what's possible in your life. So that's the intention of that exercise.

John: So then once you have that clarity about what those two different stories are and how different they are, then hopefully you can make a decision to change that to go from the current story to the better, the ideal story, I'm assuming.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yes. And also, since you have a physical or recorded version of it, you can always go back and put it on the wall somewhere and say, "Oh, wait, this is what I want things to look like. And this is what things look like before". It serves as a constant reminder about your potential. Again, it might change, but the point is that it brings you to a place of actually seeing what's going on and what could be and the difference.

John: Well, it sounds like it really kind of makes it so you can be a lot more intentional instead of just sort of let's see what happens if I don't change or if nothing changes. The only thing I might change in the story is that, in the first one you might live to be 70, and in the second one, you're going to live to be 90. Do you know what I mean?

Dr. Francis Yoo: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. They say, "Oh, they didn't get enough sleep and they didn't eat it that well". But the second story maybe, "Oh, they got plenty of eight hours of sleep at night. Refreshed every morning, got plenty of greens in, but still enjoyed the foods they wanted". Yeah, you get the idea.

John: So, it's going to be a positive thing. All right. Well, I want to know a little more, because I was looking at your website and just the specifics because it looks like you have different versions of your coaching, depending on, let's say the time commitment or the intensity, that kind of thing. Could you just explain it in case there are listeners who are interested?

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah. So, I have an introductory course called "Awaken your potential", which is similar to the URL for that, but it's going to be called "Awake your potential". And that gives you an idea of what I talk about and what exactly is the focus. But the name of my signature program is "Physician Search for Meaning". That's the name of the program and that's where you get into the nitty-gritty of the ideas and apply them for yourself.

So, for me, I've taken plenty of courses. I'm sure I've started courses I haven't finished or bought courses I haven't started either. It's just the name of my game, I suppose. But I found that you can do a course, learn it, but not understand it or not apply it. So, really a centerpiece of my Physician Search for Meaning course is about that true integration and application.

So, there are built in-person activities, because I found that when I did courses that have homework per se, I mean, yeah, I kind of do the homework, but then when you're going over it with a person, a coach or whoever may be, then you bringing it to life and actually doing it. And I'm really invested in the interpersonal getting a result versus here's a lot of knowledge. Because that was my journey to add a lot of knowledge, but sometimes I'm not able to actually apply it. And also, I have a more intensive where it's really more one-on-one where we will really be exploring much deeper, but that's kind of like the premium program. But really the Physician Search for Meaning is the cornerstone of what I'm doing.

John: Okay, great. So, I'll put links to that and of course, to your website. And I also want to try and track down that Kevin MD article, maybe I'll need your help on that, but we'll put that in the show notes as well.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

John: Well, we're getting down to the end of our time here. So, let's see. What else was I going to ask you about? I want to just give you an opportunity. You know what my audience is like, I mean, most of my audience are physicians, obviously. Some of whom have made a change, some who are thinking about a change. Many of them are either burned out or unhappy, dissatisfied, one or the other. So, what last words of advice you might have for the listeners today?

Dr. Francis Yoo: Yeah, I definitely listened to your episodes and have visited your webinars and discussions in the Facebook group. So, there's a lot of external longing, meaning there's this, "I want to do something, but I don't know what it is" or "There's this result I want to get to or this goal", which is I think very, very important. But what I would emphasize is perhaps ask yourself, "What is the inner result I'm looking for?" Instead of saying $4 million in the bank, I can pull out 4% per year or whatever, which it's an external goal. But perhaps saying, "Oh, I want to wake up every day being fulfilled and having the equanimity to be able to withstand hardships".

Doing this inner sort of goal, emotional cognitive habitual results. So, it's about this inner work and really honing our habits, our thoughts, our emotions, our beliefs, and the inner work is what we call it. And again, listening to your soul and letting your soul breathe, breathe in and out, and not analyzing, but really listening to the inner gut, the heart, and the head, as opposed to, "How can I escape? How can I get away from here? What is this result I can get to?" The outer results are great, but it needs to be paired with this inner worker, inner goal or inner journey. So, don't neglect this inner part of you, this inner life, this inner world of you.

John: No, that is really good advice. And we see it in those people who are hurting, let's say, or they don't have the meaning. They're burned out. And sometimes it's like, they just want to get one step less in pain than they are now, which isn't necessarily the long-term goal. They can't think far enough ahead to say "What do I really want my life to look like? What do I want to be feeling and how satisfied do I want to be? And what might that look like?" So, I think it's good to stop and self-reflect and try and identify those and maybe get help if you can't by yourself.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Definitely sometimes it is necessary to make that decision right then to change something. And definitely not living that by any means. But definitely, there's the "You can't do that for the rest of your life". That's a point.

John: Yeah, the best is going to be just a temporary situation, hopefully just long enough to then take the next step to something else. But it's human nature. A lot of times we're just in denial until things get so bad, we just can no longer deny it. And so, we end up feeling like we're in a big rush. Whereas if we had just slowed down a little bit and started thinking about whether they're satisfied or whether life has meaning with what they're doing along the way, it might be a little smoother of a trip.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Exactly. Exactly.

John: All right. Well, I appreciate that. That is very helpful. Very interesting. And I think we'll have to end it there. So, with that, I guess I'll just say goodbye Francis, and thanks again for being here.

Dr. Francis Yoo: Thank you for having me.

John: It's been my pleasure. Bye-bye.

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The post To Pursue Freedom Tomorrow You Must Imagine Your Eulogy Today – 192 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

How to Best Apply Your Genius In a New Career – 162

John Jurica — Tue, 29 Sep 2020 10:00:27 +0000

Interview with Performance Strategist Laura Garnett

In this week’s episode, you will learn how to apply your genius during this interview with performance strategist, speaker, and author Laura Garnett.

Laura works with CEOs and executives to identify their unique genius and purpose, and leverage them in their day-to-day work.

She has consulted with organizations including Google, Pandora, LinkedIn, and 15Five. Prior to launching her own company, New York City-based Garnett Consulting, she honed her marketing, strategy, and career-refining skills at companies like Capital One, American Express, IAC, and Google.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has well over 650 graduates. And, unlike other programs, which typically run 1 – 1/2 to 2 years, this program only takes a year to complete. Recently, Economist Magazine ranked the business school #1 in the world as the Most Relevant Executive MBA.

While in the program, you'll participate in a company project. That will enable you to demonstrate your commitment. And, as a result, the UT PEMBA students bring exceptional value to their organizations.

Graduates have taken leadership positions at major healthcare organizations. And they've become entrepreneurs and business owners.

By joining the University of Tennessee physician executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills needed to find a career that you really love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Find Your Zone of Genius

Laura Garnett just released her most recent book called Find Your Zone of Genius a few weeks ago. And she was kind enough to join us to define the term and help us identify our own Zone of Genius.

During the conversation, Laura explains several other concepts from the book that will truly help anyone on their career journey:

How to find our innate talents.
Why our purpose is more important than our passion.
Why finding support is usually preferable to obtaining advice.
How your core emotional challenge usually determines your purpose.

How to Apply Your Genius

Laura explains why you should read Find Your Zone of Genius first, as you begin to apply your genius. Once you understand the concepts and start the process of self-discovery, you can then move to her comprehensive first book The Genius Habit.

Getting into your Zone of Genius is possible for everyone, and I promise it makes work exhilarating. In the ideal scenario, you actively use your genius and feel the impact of your purpose at work. – Laura Garnett

Additional Resources

After reading her books, you may still encounter barriers as you attempt to discover your unique talents and apply your genius. You can then work through her free resources. If that is not sufficient, there are several levels of formal coaching to consider. All of these can be found on her website.

Summary

Those of us driven to find a new career often do so because we are not currently working in our Zone of Genius. The first step in addressing that issue is to identify our genius and purpose. To move into a new career without identifying these features of personality is to invite another unhappy job.

Once we discover our innate talents and purpose, we can identify our Zone of Genius. Then, by aligning our job with it, we will wake up each morning excited to go to work.

Links for Today's Episode:

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The Nonclinical Career Academy Membership Program recently added a new MasterClass!

I've created 17 courses and placed them all in an exclusive, low-cost membership program. The program provides an introduction to dozens of nontraditional careers, with in-depth lessons on several of them. It even includes my full MSL Course. There is a money-back guarantee, so there is no risk to signing up. And I'll add more courses each month.

Check out the home page for the Academy at nonclinicalphysicians.com/joinnca.

Thanks to our sponsor…

Thanks to the UT Physician Executive MBA program for sponsoring the show. It’s an outstanding, highly rated, MBA program designed for working physicians. It is just what you need to prepare for that fulfilling, well-paying career. You can find out more at nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. It should not be construed as medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career.

The post How to Best Apply Your Genius In a New Career – 162 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

How to Be a Life Coach and Professional Artist – 158

John Jurica — Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:25:45 +0000

Interview with Dr. Jessie Benson

In this week's PNC Podcast episode, Dr. Jessie Benson describes how she became a coach, musician, and professional artist after practicing anesthesiology for 10 years.

Jessie received her medical degree from West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine. She then completed an anesthesia residency at the University of Alabama at Birmingham and a critical care fellowship at the Cleveland Clinic.

Jessie spent the first 3 decades of her life chasing achievement and approval. Her life was marked by perfectionism and a fear of failure and rejection. Through dedicated self-work, she was able to break free from this way of thinking. That is when she really started living.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country, with over 650 graduates. And, unlike other programs, which typically run 1 – 1/2 to 2 years, this program only takes a year to complete. Recently, Economist Magazine ranked the business school #1 in the world for the Most Relevant Executive MBA.

While in the program, you'll participate in a company project, thereby contributing to your organization. As a result, the University of Tennessee PEMBA students bring exceptional value to their organizations.

Graduates have taken leadership positions at major healthcare organizations. And they've become entrepreneurs and business owners.

By joining the University of Tennessee physician executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills needed to find a career that you really love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office by calling (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

A Coach, Musician, and Professional Artist

After practicing anesthesiology and critical care medicine for nearly a decade, Jessie took a leap of faith in 2014. She left medicine to build the life of her dreams. She now lives in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia on 5 ½ acres of heaven. Jessie’s days are filled with doing what she loves. She works with life coach clients. She creates and sells her beeswax and oil paintings as a professional artist. And since building her house, she now lives the life of a homesteader each day.

I just knew it wasn't the life for me, and so I decided I wanted to have a different life and that's what I do now.

In addition to developing her artistic impulses, she brought music back into her life. She began playing the cello, sometimes performing for others.

Exposure to Life Coaching

Jessie has steadily grown her coaching practice to a vibrant one. In addition to meeting with her one-on-one clients weekly, Jessie leads workshops and retreats. The culmination of this work is Brave Is Beautiful Circle. This is her year-long immersion program helping women connect with their authenticity and creativity and “find their brave.”

By life coach and professional artist Dr. Jessie Benson.

Jessie's Journey Didn't Stop There

Art and music weren't all that Jessie fell in love with. In preparation for her transition, Jessie completed yoga and meditation training and certification. Then, she traveled around the U.S. in an RV, hiking many state and national parks. This helped her to decide where she wanted to settle down and begin her new life.

After her traveling journey, she started her life coaching practice. In her practice, she focuses on what she calls barrier beliefs. These are the obstacles to moving forward productively. Ultimately, that led her to develop her year-long coaching program. In it, she integrates much of what she has learned over the past several years. Now, she is super excited about her Brave is Beautiful Circle program.

Summary

In this episode, Dr. Jessie Benson discusses why there is hope that each of us can find a more balanced life. Since leaving medicine, she now spends her time as a life coach, musician, homesteader, and professional artist. And she loves it.

And she encourages all of us to follow our own path to a more balanced and authentic life. Whether in medicine or not. But it requires effort and commitment. And sometimes some coaching.

Links for Today's Episode:

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The Nonclinical Career Academy Membership Program recently added a new MasterClass!

Check out the home page for the Academy at nonclinicalphysicians.com/joinnca.

Thanks to our sponsor…

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

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The post How to Be a Life Coach and Professional Artist – 158 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

coaching Archives - NonClinical Physicians

Why Build Your Own Rewarding CME and CE Writing Business?

Interview with Dr. Alexandra Howson – Episode 331

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The Journey to CME Writing

Building a Writing Career

Summary

Links for Today's Episode:

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What’s New in My World and Is Coaching Worth the Expense?

What's New and the Cost of Coaching – Episode 327

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Understanding the Value of Expertise in Coaching

Choosing the Right Coach for Your Goals

Summary

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The 5 Most Popular Home Based and Remote Careers – 291

This List Keeps Growing

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Benefits of a Remote or Home Based Job

Categories of home based and remote careers:

Chart reviews

Medical writing

Telemedicine

Consulting

Coaching

Summary

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Why Physicians Should Not Underestimate the Value of Coaching – 274

Interview with Dr. Jen Barna

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The Value of Coaching

Forming New Habits

Dr. Jen Barna's Advice About the Value of Coaching

Summary

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How to Survive and Thrive on the High Pressure Healthcare Battlefield – 233

Interview with Dr. Jen Barna

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Helping Physicians Survive and Thrive

DocWorking Podcast

Summary

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How Do I Hire a Suitable Physician Career Coach or Consultant? – 215

Part 1 – Coaches Featured on the PNC Podcast

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Which Physician Career Coach Is Suitable for You?

Physician Career Coach Guests

Nonphysician Coaches

Next Week's Episode

Summary

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

Links for Today's Episode:

“Iconic” Physician Coaches

“Recently” Discovered

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Top Reasons Why Coaching Is So Essential for Healthcare Leaders – 197

Interview with Dr. Randall (Randy) Cook

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Why Coaching Is So Essential for Healthcare Leaders

Prescription for Success Podcast

Summary

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode that you can download or read.