Interview with Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn explains in this week's interview why she left clinical medicine and why she wants to help committed colleagues heal the world.
Dianne is an Anesthesiologist. She received her medical degree from the University of Michigan Medical School in Ann Arbor. Then she completed a Master’s Degree in Health Behavior and Health Education from the University of Michigan School of Public Health, before entering residency.
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Burnout Was the Beginning of Her Journey
Dianne was a practicing anesthesiologist when she went through her own experience with burnout in 2012. It adversely affected every aspect of her life. It ultimately led her to leave clinical practice. But her experience with burnout was the beginning of her journey to creating the happy, fulfilled, purpose-driven life that she lives today.
Dianne was one of the earliest physician peer coaches. From the very beginning, she has found ways to help committed colleagues heal themselves and others. She continues to be at the forefront of physician coaching. Since 2018, she has been training other physicians in The Physician Coaching Academy.
A Desire to Help Committed Colleagues Heal the World
Her mission is to help create a health care system where physician wellness is an integral part of medical practice and where physicians are supported.
I was drawn to coaching through looking for support around my own pain and confusion about the way that I was feeling about work. – Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn
Dianne has also published a book called Doctor Heal Thyself: A Guide for Physicians to Prevent Burnout and Promote Wellbeing.
Summary
If you’re in the midst of burnout you can contact Dianne for help. But if you’re beyond that and you want to apply coaching principles to help committed colleagues, then the Physician Coaching Academy will be worth exploring.
You can find Diane at physicianvitalityinstitute.com or at drdianne.com.
NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode that you can download or read right here. It's a new feature of the show notes. I hope you like it. You can use it to sign up for my newsletter, too!
Links for Today's Episode:
- Physician Coaching Academy
- DrDianne.com
- Physician Vitality Institute
- Dianne's Book Doctor Heal Thyself: A Guide for Physicians to Prevent Burnout and Promote Healing
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PNC Podcast Episode 186
How to Help Committed Colleagues Heal the World
Interview with Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn
John: I enjoy interviewing expert physician coaches on the podcast, but few have the extensive experience of today's guest and teach other physicians how to become peer coaches themselves. So, I really want to give a warm welcome to Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Dianne.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, thank you, John. I'm so happy to be here and congratulations on going over 180 episodes of the podcast. It?s such an honor to be here.
John: It's hard to believe, but we just keep plugging away. Right?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Right. Yes.
John: We're going to get into your story in a little bit, but I do want to mention to everyone who maybe doesn't know Dianne, that she has been doing this for a long time. She's one of the most experienced coaches that I've met in my time as a podcaster here. And she's written a recent book, which you should check out called ?Doctor, Heal Thyself?. She does speak engagements. She's a coach and now she teaches others to coach. I can't wait to hear what you have to say. So, tell us a little bit about your education and background and we'll go from there.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, sure. Well, I have a medical degree and a master's in public health that I earned from University of Michigan. Go blue. I'm kind of an old school doc. I graduated in 1992 already. I'm an anesthesiologist by training. I did an internship in pediatrics, in Chicago, Children's Memorial. And then I started anesthesia training and then I did cardiothoracic and pain management fellowships after that.
I started private practice in Denver, Colorado, where I was in practice for 15 years. And then I left clinical medicine eight years ago, unfortunately, secondary to burnout. So, what I do now is I?ve been a coach for about 10 years, as you said, John. I wrote a book, I do my own podcasts called The Doctor's Life, and I teach other doctors and healthcare leaders, how to become peer powerful physicians, peer coaches through the Physician Coaching Academy. That's my passion and what people would call my side hustle. Although, it's basically having two jobs because I actually work part-time or full-time rather in nonclinical work as well. So, I keep busy just like other doctors do. That's how we do it.
John: Yeah, that's true. Most doctors are doing more than one thing, sometimes three or four. So, we have that connection around Chicago. You spent a fair amount of time in Chicago. I'm just outside of Chicago. But you recently left Chicago again to go west.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Right. Yes. During most of my nonclinical years, I moved from Denver to just outside Chicago. And as I mentioned, I did my training in Chicago, so it's basically my second home. And I just moved back to Denver in July of this year.
John: Nice. And I bet it's a lot nicer out there right now than it is in Chicago where it's blizzarding off and on here for a week or so. But that's normal for Chicago, right?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: It's normal for Chicago. Yeah. I got to say that it bounces up and down in Denver. Some weeks it's in the 20s, earlier this week it was in the 60s and sunny. So, I highly recommend Denver.
John: It?s a nice place.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: If you are looking to start a new life at a new place.
John: That's awesome. Okay. One of the things I want to know is what is it that drew you to becoming a coach? I've talked to a lot of coaches over the years and I don't know that I've asked them this question. I have my own ideas about that, but why? Did you receive coaching for a while? Is that what attracted you? How did that work?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Well, unfortunately, it ended up being a silver lining, but I got drawn to coaching through looking for some support around my own pain and confusion about the way that I was feeling about work. So, I had been a really high achiever throughout undergraduate. I actually started undergraduate when I was 16. And then went straight through undergraduate into medical school. I decided to ?take a break? after two years in medical school. I earned my MPH in health behavior and health education. I went back to medical school where I had met my husband. I did anesthesia fellowship. You get the idea. All of us doctors are really high flyers and we work hard. I moved to Denver. Beautiful place, joined a private practice. I have my two kids and I have a starter home and all that good stuff.
I was well-regarded by my surgeons and the staff around me, but after about 12 years in, I started to feel as though I wasn't feeling that great about work. And I started even crying on my way to work. I was dreading the call, feeling as though I wasn't good at my work. Whereas everything was telling me that I was good at my work. I'm starting to feel just emotionally exhausted. And then I started to feel it.
So, the key was I always take care of my patients as you all do by thinking about what would my family and loved ones, what kind of treatment would they need and want and how would I want to be treated? So, I started finding that when I got called in the middle of the night on OB, I was like, ?Oh God?. Whereas before I felt like that was my mission, that was my purpose to be there in the middle of the night, to answer the call of someone in pain.
And so, I reached out to a physician coach. At first, I just started looking at other options because I thought I got to get out of here. And then, I started working with a coach. And I also reached out to a psychiatrist because I thought I might have depression. And I wanted to talk to another physician that would understand where I was coming from. Because I didn't feel comfortable. I actually felt afraid about speaking to my physician colleague. This was 10 years ago. But still, I find that to be the case if I'm across either screen and I'm talking to one of my surgeons and say like ?I don't really feel very confident?.
John: You don't want to do that.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Or even talking to my physician husband who is a really high achiever as well. And just getting that sideways look like, ?What is wrong with you?? I didn't feel supported within my own inner circle. And so, I reached out outside of it and found out that I had burnout, not depression. What I've described are actually the three primary tenants of depression. Emotional exhaustion, feeling as though we're not as effective at our work and starting to feel our patients are a burden to us.
So, I continued speaking with a coach and I was thinking about, again, other things I wanted to do. And I spoke to her and she goes, ?What do you want to do?? I said, ?Oh, I want to do what you do?. It's exciting to help somebody. And so, I trained as a coach. There weren't physician coach training programs, but I trained as a coach, and became a certified professional coactive coach. And I also trained as a physician coach. And I started just reaching out at first to my friends and colleagues who were having their own struggles with burnout. That's how I got into it. It?s actually through my own pain and struggle.
And I find that with physicians oftentimes is that we look to help when we gain our purpose from the experiences that we have had. I was on the admissions committee for University of Colorado medical school for a while. And I found that when I spoke to the medical students, a lot of their rationale and their drive and their passion to get into medicine was often due to their personal experience or an experience of a family member with medicine.
John: Well, let me jump in there first. I think there's a lot of us listening right now that could relate to much of what you said. It's like you wake up one day and you realize, ?When did I start to hate actually every Monday?? if there was a day of the week I was working. Or I thought I was going to love my job forever and I'm starting actually to resent my patients. That's the way I felt. I actually had numerous patients that I just resented. So, I think we can relate to that.
The other thing is that when I talk to coaches, I feel like coaching in lots of different venues is like all the good stuff of being a physician without the bad stuff. You get to help people, you get to use your expertise and empathy and all those tools, but you're not going to be sued. You're not going to have to get up at all hours of the night. You're not going to work 70, 80 hours a week and you can have a life. So, it sounds like what you're saying is in sync with that.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Yeah. It is really, really satisfying. And I do it in addition to the day job that I have. I found it really satisfying to work with other physicians. And I started asking myself as I'm sure a lot of physicians do, as you start to transition into another phase of life. As I mentioned I graduated from med school in 1992. And while there's a lot of younger physicians who want to take on other roles, of course, I think the part of that was my transitioning into another phase of life where I felt more satisfied and where I was able to give in a different way. We give and give and give as physicians to our patients. A lot of times we find ourselves depleted. And so, we're looking at what lights us up, what gives us satisfaction, what can we work at where we can grow and where we can thrive.
And for me, that's coaching. For someone else, it's something else. But for me, that's coaching. And I find that by teaching other folks to become peer coaches, then I can spread that. I can only see one doc at a time. But with this latest cohort that I'm teaching, I will have trained over 40 physicians and health care leaders, how to become coaches and how to become powerful, effective coaches. And I find that that way you can just spread the love and spread the healing and spread that understanding, and prevent and treat people that are burning out or have burnout. And that's so crucial in our profession today.
John: I found that a lot of nonclinical jobs allow physicians to actually have an impact on a larger group of people than they can seeing one patient at a time is a common theme. I did want to learn a little bit more about coaching itself, and then I definitely want to hear about how you teach others to coach.
Some of us get hung up on the terms. Does it make a difference, life coaching, career coaching, business coaching, professional coaching? I assume they use similar techniques, but maybe you can parse it out a little bit for us. And if I were looking for coaching, do I need to figure out which of those I need, or do I just need to find a good coach? How does that work?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, that's a really great question. So, what I tell my students and how I explain coaching is that coaching is different than mentoring or just giving advice because the person that you're coaching actually has a specific goal that they want to achieve. So, whether that's the goal in business or career or personal life, a coach can work with you, sort of a general coach or a life coach can certainly work with you in all of those arenas of life. Because when I teach my students, it's actually an ?aha? moment where I remind them that physicians are people too.
And so, we have all of our aspects of life. We have our personal life. We have our finances. We have our spiritual life. We have what we'd like to do. We have our families, significant others, our personal development, all of those things. And we bring those all to work. They're all part of an integrated into our lives.
So, sometimes I'll have a doc that needs career coaching, but what we find out is that they're really struggling with their purpose and their mission. Or they're having trouble in their relationship, or with their kids or nowadays the fear and the cloud of COVID, which has been with us for over a year at this point. We're talking in February of 2021. It's been over a year that all of us have had to deal with the struggles and the confusion, the losses and the grief. And so, a coach can work with all of those emotions. They're not a therapist, but by being seen, heard and understood, and then moving towards a goal, that's what coaching is all about.
So, to parse it out, there are folks that do specifically business coaching, and that's important, especially for docs that are entrepreneurs, and they want to be able to move forward and create their own business. There are specific coaches that will take you from A to Z. This is how you create an LLC. This is how you make a business plan, and this is how you get on social media, et cetera. There are career coaches that specifically work on communication leadership. And so, if you're looking for those, they are segmented out.
But I believe that someone that is trained as a life coach can make a lot of headway with someone that wants coaching in any aspect of their life. Like the business is obviously specific skills. But a lot of docs that I coach, they do come because they're stymied in their career. They're having trouble with leadership. Some are directed to me because they're ?problem? docs.
And what I find is that if we can talk to them as a person, if they can be recognized for who they are, what their values are, their strengths are, and then create goals based on that, really seeing them first, then we can go a long way towards creating a life for them that is fulfilling. Whether that's non-clinical or clinical or a mix of the two.
John: Yeah. And I think that fits with what I've learned about coaching. As you said, you're not a consultant. You're not there to show them how to do a certain job or something. You're trying to get at, like you said, their purpose, their meaning, and have them discover it through the skills that you learn as a coach, from what I understand. And I've stayed away from coaching because it's a special skill and it's a special thing that you do and it definitely needs training to learn how to do that properly. But if somebody wants to ask me about a nonclinical job that I know about, well, I can tell them about that, but that's coaching. Some of that's mentoring, some of that's just talking with people.
Is there something you think in particular about coaching physicians, that's, I don't know if that's unique? I mean, obviously each profession is unique, but I feel like we're all family, because we've gone through the shared experience, which is in retrospect, not good in a lot of ways and the way it plays out and the intensity of it and sometimes the lack of attending to the personal issues. So, I guess that's my segue into that question. What do you think?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Yeah, what I think is that the thing that's unique with physicians is that they are such high achievers, that they often come around career coaching or personal coaching with some reluctance in some ways, even though they're reaching out. Because what they tend to forget is that they are human. We are asked to do superhuman things. We have seen things that people that are not physicians have not seen. We've seen tragedy, we've seen death. Even just with telling patients bad news, which can be, you have cancer, or it can be that you need testing. Some people are afraid of even just going to get their blood work done. A lot of times, what we're sharing with our patients is very intimate and we don't realize that. We don't realize the emotional tool that being a physician takes and the emotional strength that it takes.
So, I find that when I talk to physicians, we're talking a lot about self-care, we're talking about boundaries, we're talking about honoring ourself, rediscovering our purpose. Not being perfect, being okay with not being okay, and really honoring our goals, what we'd like to accomplish in life. Looking to our relationships, being mindful with our finances, looking at not staying with the Joneses and being independent and living our lives the way that we like to live them.
As physicians, we're trained to be very precise and not to make mistakes. And so, in coaching, we learned that sometimes being human is messy, sometimes it's okay to be perfect at work. Of course, we want to strive for that. But in our personal lives, sometimes we have to try things and fail. We have to try that hobby. We have to go on that trip. We have to have that difficult conversation with our spouse. We need to have that difficult conversation with ourselves sometimes.
Honestly, leaving medicine was one of the hardest things that I've ever done. I really felt leaving clinical medicine was so difficult because medicine was in my bones. I'd wanted to become a physician ever since I was 13 years old. And after I left clinical medicine, I should say, even going into a nonclinical job, I remember my first training. We were all giving each other high fives and we're out of there and all that stuff.
But I went through a grief process of probably about two years and I didn't realize it until after I was out of it. I kept thinking about going back to clinical, maybe I'll do part time. Maybe I'll do a mission trip, that kind of thing. And it wasn't until I left my first job and went into my second that I realized I'm not going back.
John: Yeah. There are so many mindset issues and there's baggage, whatever you want to call it. Part of it is from external, our expectations from others as well as ourselves. But how do you feel now about what you've decided to do? I mean, I obviously know the answer to this question but how is your emotional state these last few years in doing what you're doing?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Well, I feel very good about it. Like I say, it took a while to adjust. But I have to say that I have slept through the night, every night for the last eight years. I've been able to work remotely so I can travel. I've been able to move from Chicago to Denver. No problem. It was just a matter of changing time zones. And I feel very fortunate to have been able to make the switch over into nonclinical work. It was a good fit for me. It's not a good fit for everyone but it certainly was a good fit for me. And I wouldn't go back for anything. Like I say, I moved back to Denver and I live about five miles from the hospital and the surgery centers that I used to work at. I still have friends. I'm gone right by the hospital and felt like, ?Okay, fine. That was a phase of my life that I wouldn't take back. That I loved at one point?. Sometimes you need to move on and that's okay.
John: Yeah, absolutely. And interestingly, if you think about it, there are a lot of jobs and careers out there for physicians that are nonclinical and they're just waiting for physicians to enter them. They're physician jobs. And so, somebody has to do them and it's going to take a physician. And coaching other physicians is one thing that probably takes a physician for a lot of those people that need that kind of coaching.
So, I'm sure there's a percentage of my audience who's listening now and really is resonating with what you're saying. Obviously, there are others that say, ?Well, I just want to go do something?, but I think it's great. I want to pause here for a minute and remind everybody. I don't know if I did this before, but your website is drdianne.com. So, anything you're talking about from your own coaching to the Academy and your book is all there at drdianne.com. Correct?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: That's right. That's right.
John: So, I want to get that in always before the very end, because I'm not sure everybody listens to the very end. Now, we're going to talk a little bit before we go about the Physician Coaching Academy, because I just want to get an idea what is that really like? Who joins it? I think you're in the middle of a cohort now. I don't know if you can tell us a little bit without getting too specific how that's going and what it's like to be in that group.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, I'm very happy to tell you about it because I love teaching docs and other healthcare leaders how to become peer coaches. I love to see the transformation from being a little awkward about I don't know what I'm getting into, and breaking it down into pieces, specific skills that physicians, for the most part, they think, ?Oh, I can listen. Oh, I'm open?. But we start from the very beginning and it's a surprise and a revelation to the group when they get started. And by the end, they are successfully coaching. And I love it.
We do that in 10 weeks and it might seem short, but the reason why I can do it in 10 weeks is because physicians and leaders in healthcare are quick studies. And the folks that want to be there are there. They pay attention, they do the homework, they get involved and they get excited.
Now, in terms of just a little bit of the details of it, like I said, it's 10 weeks. It's a really intimate program. I usually don't take more than 10 students. It's all online. By the end, there's such a transformation and you really form a cohesive group because you're being coached and being coached, being vulnerable and sharing your struggles and successes as well. So, by the end, it's like summer camp. Like, I don't want to leave. And everybody's starting to virtually hugging each other.
Gosh, I have had students that want to take on a career in coaching. A lot of students like myself, they do coaching in addition to whatever they're doing. Most of them are still in clinical practice but they're in leadership positions. So, they're assistant deans. They're leaders of their residency program, their CMOs. And so, they are asked to create a peer coaching program, or they've been asked to do coaching and they think, ?Oh my gosh, I don't know how to do it?. And I really need some skills. As I said, there's some other docs that they want to take on coaching as their side gig. They want to become entrepreneurs and eventually they want to transition into full-time coaching.
So, what they all have in common is they have a drive. They want to learn the skills of coaching. They want to learn with the physician. They want to be in a cohort of like-minded folks. And they want to join the community of physicians who can powerfully coach each other. They want to be of service to the community of coaches.
John: Am I right in my assumption that part of it is practicing with the other members in terms of ?Okay, let's practice some coaching and apply the things that you're teaching them along the way??
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, absolutely. See one, do one, teach one approach. It's like being back in med school or residency. We chat about what our experiences are. Actually, from the very first lesson you get homework. So, we talk about our experiences with the homework, which is very practical. Even the homework has a strong learning component. So, we have a brief discussion about the homework. I do a didactic session and then jump in and practice. And as we go on first, we have the training wheels on, and then I start taking them off. And that is just like training. So, the docs and the health care leaders, they feel very comfortable doing that method because that's what we're accustomed to.
But my goal is that by the end of each lesson, you have a tangible skill that you can use. And that is very important. I don't teach just theory. I teach practice. And that?s the way that we're used to learning.
John: Yeah. Absolutely. I'm a big supporter of coaching in general in whatever venue. And I liked a couple of things when I was looking over, what I could see of the program on your website, there's this whole philosophy. A lot of leadership involves coaching. Some informal, some formal. I mean, you could actually be a coach oriented leader and be very successful. And I think you mentioned that about sometimes just teaching these people, they're not going to go out and sell their coaching. They're going to use that coaching as an integral part of their leadership, which I think is just an awesome thing that's really key for many physicians. Because they are a little autocratic in a way, because of the way we're taught. And that's really not how you lead, like let's say a hospital or a department.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Exactly. Coaching type leadership, that's the new model. And I know that we tend as physicians to look within our own group. We look at studies and we look at our own publications. But if you look just a little outside, especially if you get into the business world and I'm in insurance. So, I'm in the business world myself. It's a corporate type of lifestyle. And as you become a leader, you do have to embrace more of that corporate mindset, leadership mindset, which includes managing money and managing people. So, who knows more about that and studies more about that than the business community? So, if you start reading Harvard business review, and you start looking into publications about business, then you'll find that coaching leadership style, that's the ?new? model of coaching. And so, in order to stay relevant, you need to adapt. Whether you're a physician leader or whether you've come from outside medicine, whether you're an HR leader or you've come from healthcare administration, it doesn't matter. This is the new wave and that's not going to change.
John: I just had this ?aha? moment really, as you were talking. A lot of people asked me, ?What can I do? Do I need to be certified? Do I need to have an MBA?? I said, no, when you're getting into a nonclinical job, you have to show interest, maybe dabble in it, do a pilot. But if they had a 10-week course on coaching and they wanted to be a leader that would be I'm demonstrating. I have a commitment to it. And by the way, I have this skill now that I can apply to my leadership. So, it's just another opportunity. I've seen people do it with informatics. They'll take a three-month course. It just gets you started.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Absolutely. And what I have found more and more is that the docs that come to my program, their organization pays for the training. So, their organization believes in the training that they're receiving. So, a lot of times you can talk to your organization or about the training. You can use your CME dollars because I offer CME along with the course. So, you could take the course and have a lot of fun, get the certification and get 15 credits of CME at the same time. So, it's a total win-win situation.
John: That?s great. I've seen more people starting to get the CME credit. It has to pertain obviously to practice in some way, even if it's indirect. Like opening a med spa. I don't know, maybe that wouldn?t apply. But this would definitely be suitable for CME, for sure.
All right, Dianne. Well, I think I've taken up a little bit too much of your time, but we've covered a lot and that's a good place to end, I think, because if someone's interest is peaked, then they should check it out again at drdianne.com.
Anything else you want to add to the conversation at this point before we go and or anything that I missed in terms of what you're up to?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Well, thank you. I'd just like to add one more thing. And that is that if docs are interested in coaching, even if they're not interested in doing my coach training, but they want to learn what the heck is coaching, and want to get an experience of coach training, the way that I train, you can go onto the website. And if you sign up, then I do a 15-minute training, which is basically coaching and self-coaching one-on-one. So, you will, again, because I like to teach tools, by the end of that 15-minute training, you will have some tools and how to coach yourself or coach others. Of course, it's the outlines, kind of like a soap note. So, you learn the basics, the structure, but of course, you have to continue on with training to learn the art of coaching. And if you join the program, that's what you'll learn. The art of coaching. But as my gift to you all physicians, I want you to learn something from me. And so, sign up and you'll get that 15-minute training.
John: That's good. Look for that. And if they have any questions, is there a contact form or an email form that they can use to ask?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Absolutely. I think it's on the first page in the website. Just go on there, shoot me an email, and I'm more than happy to talk with you. Also, through the website, you can get on there and make an appointment to talk with me face-to-face and ask any questions that you might like either about personal coaching or about joining the Academy.
John: Well, I want to thank you very much, Dianne, for coming on today and sharing this. I've found it to be fascinating. And I'm glad that you were able to answer all the questions I had today.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Well, you're very welcome and I so appreciate the opportunity to be able to share with your audience. And again, thank you for all the years that you have been podcasting and sharing opening physician's minds to the possibilities that are outside of clinical medicine. And I encourage you all to listen to Dr. Jurica?s other episodes, learn what you can, don't be afraid, dip your toe in the water, and you'll still be a physician for the rest of your life.
John: Absolutely.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: So again, different role, and expand your world.
John: Excellent words of wisdom there. All right. Well, then I will say goodbye and thanks again.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: You're very welcome.
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PNC Podcast Episode 186
How to Help Committed Colleagues Heal the World
Interview with Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn
John: I enjoy interviewing expert physician coaches on the podcast, but few have the extensive experience of today's guest and teach other physicians how to become peer coaches themselves. So, I really want to give a warm welcome to Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn. Thanks for coming on the podcast, Dianne.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, thank you, John. I'm so happy to be here and congratulations on going over 180 episodes of the podcast. It?s such an honor to be here.
John: It's hard to believe, but we just keep plugging away. Right?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Right. Yes.
John: We're going to get into your story in a little bit, but I do want to mention to everyone who maybe doesn't know Dianne, that she has been doing this for a long time. She's one of the most experienced coaches that I've met in my time as a podcaster here. And she's written a recent book, which you should check out called ?Doctor, Heal Thyself?. She does speak engagements. She's a coach and now she teaches others to coach. I can't wait to hear what you have to say. So, tell us a little bit about your education and background and we'll go from there.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, sure. Well, I have a medical degree and a master's in public health that I earned from University of Michigan. Go blue. I'm kind of an old school doc. I graduated in 1992 already. I'm an anesthesiologist by training. I did an internship in pediatrics, in Chicago, Children's Memorial. And then I started anesthesia training and then I did cardiothoracic and pain management fellowships after that.
I started private practice in Denver, Colorado, where I was in practice for 15 years. And then I left clinical medicine eight years ago, unfortunately, secondary to burnout. So, what I do now is I?ve been a coach for about 10 years, as you said, John. I wrote a book, I do my own podcasts called The Doctor's Life, and I teach other doctors and healthcare leaders, how to become peer powerful physicians, peer coaches through the Physician Coaching Academy. That's my passion and what people would call my side hustle. Although, it's basically having two jobs because I actually work part-time or full-time rather in nonclinical work as well. So, I keep busy just like other doctors do. That's how we do it.
John: Yeah, that's true. Most doctors are doing more than one thing, sometimes three or four. So, we have that connection around Chicago. You spent a fair amount of time in Chicago. I'm just outside of Chicago. But you recently left Chicago again to go west.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Right. Yes. During most of my nonclinical years, I moved from Denver to just outside Chicago. And as I mentioned, I did my training in Chicago, so it's basically my second home. And I just moved back to Denver in July of this year.
John: Nice. And I bet it's a lot nicer out there right now than it is in Chicago where it's blizzarding off and on here for a week or so. But that's normal for Chicago, right?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: It's normal for Chicago. Yeah. I got to say that it bounces up and down in Denver. Some weeks it's in the 20s, earlier this week it was in the 60s and sunny. So, I highly recommend Denver.
John: It?s a nice place.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: If you are looking to start a new life at a new place.
John: That's awesome. Okay. One of the things I want to know is what is it that drew you to becoming a coach? I've talked to a lot of coaches over the years and I don't know that I've asked them this question. I have my own ideas about that, but why? Did you receive coaching for a while? Is that what attracted you? How did that work?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Well, unfortunately, it ended up being a silver lining, but I got drawn to coaching through looking for some support around my own pain and confusion about the way that I was feeling about work. So, I had been a really high achiever throughout undergraduate. I actually started undergraduate when I was 16. And then went straight through undergraduate into medical school. I decided to ?take a break? after two years in medical school. I earned my MPH in health behavior and health education. I went back to medical school where I had met my husband. I did anesthesia fellowship. You get the idea. All of us doctors are really high flyers and we work hard. I moved to Denver. Beautiful place, joined a private practice. I have my two kids and I have a starter home and all that good stuff.
I was well-regarded by my surgeons and the staff around me, but after about 12 years in, I started to feel as though I wasn't feeling that great about work. And I started even crying on my way to work. I was dreading the call, feeling as though I wasn't good at my work. Whereas everything was telling me that I was good at my work. I'm starting to feel just emotionally exhausted. And then I started to feel it.
So, the key was I always take care of my patients as you all do by thinking about what would my family and loved ones, what kind of treatment would they need and want and how would I want to be treated? So, I started finding that when I got called in the middle of the night on OB, I was like, ?Oh God?. Whereas before I felt like that was my mission, that was my purpose to be there in the middle of the night, to answer the call of someone in pain.
And so, I reached out to a physician coach. At first, I just started looking at other options because I thought I got to get out of here. And then, I started working with a coach. And I also reached out to a psychiatrist because I thought I might have depression. And I wanted to talk to another physician that would understand where I was coming from. Because I didn't feel comfortable. I actually felt afraid about speaking to my physician colleague. This was 10 years ago. But still, I find that to be the case if I'm across either screen and I'm talking to one of my surgeons and say like ?I don't really feel very confident?.
John: You don't want to do that.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Or even talking to my physician husband who is a really high achiever as well. And just getting that sideways look like, ?What is wrong with you?? I didn't feel supported within my own inner circle. And so, I reached out outside of it and found out that I had burnout, not depression. What I've described are actually the three primary tenants of depression. Emotional exhaustion, feeling as though we're not as effective at our work and starting to feel our patients are a burden to us.
So, I continued speaking with a coach and I was thinking about, again, other things I wanted to do. And I spoke to her and she goes, ?What do you want to do?? I said, ?Oh, I want to do what you do?. It's exciting to help somebody. And so, I trained as a coach. There weren't physician coach training programs, but I trained as a coach, and became a certified professional coactive coach. And I also trained as a physician coach. And I started just reaching out at first to my friends and colleagues who were having their own struggles with burnout. That's how I got into it. It?s actually through my own pain and struggle.
And I find that with physicians oftentimes is that we look to help when we gain our purpose from the experiences that we have had. I was on the admissions committee for University of Colorado medical school for a while. And I found that when I spoke to the medical students, a lot of their rationale and their drive and their passion to get into medicine was often due to their personal experience or an experience of a family member with medicine.
John: Well, let me jump in there first. I think there's a lot of us listening right now that could relate to much of what you said. It's like you wake up one day and you realize, ?When did I start to hate actually every Monday?? if there was a day of the week I was working. Or I thought I was going to love my job forever and I'm starting actually to resent my patients. That's the way I felt. I actually had numerous patients that I just resented. So, I think we can relate to that.
The other thing is that when I talk to coaches, I feel like coaching in lots of different venues is like all the good stuff of being a physician without the bad stuff. You get to help people, you get to use your expertise and empathy and all those tools, but you're not going to be sued. You're not going to have to get up at all hours of the night. You're not going to work 70, 80 hours a week and you can have a life. So, it sounds like what you're saying is in sync with that.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Yeah. It is really, really satisfying. And I do it in addition to the day job that I have. I found it really satisfying to work with other physicians. And I started asking myself as I'm sure a lot of physicians do, as you start to transition into another phase of life. As I mentioned I graduated from med school in 1992. And while there's a lot of younger physicians who want to take on other roles, of course, I think the part of that was my transitioning into another phase of life where I felt more satisfied and where I was able to give in a different way. We give and give and give as physicians to our patients. A lot of times we find ourselves depleted. And so, we're looking at what lights us up, what gives us satisfaction, what can we work at where we can grow and where we can thrive.
And for me, that's coaching. For someone else, it's something else. But for me, that's coaching. And I find that by teaching other folks to become peer coaches, then I can spread that. I can only see one doc at a time. But with this latest cohort that I'm teaching, I will have trained over 40 physicians and health care leaders, how to become coaches and how to become powerful, effective coaches. And I find that that way you can just spread the love and spread the healing and spread that understanding, and prevent and treat people that are burning out or have burnout. And that's so crucial in our profession today.
John: I found that a lot of nonclinical jobs allow physicians to actually have an impact on a larger group of people than they can seeing one patient at a time is a common theme. I did want to learn a little bit more about coaching itself, and then I definitely want to hear about how you teach others to coach.
Some of us get hung up on the terms. Does it make a difference, life coaching, career coaching, business coaching, professional coaching? I assume they use similar techniques, but maybe you can parse it out a little bit for us. And if I were looking for coaching, do I need to figure out which of those I need, or do I just need to find a good coach? How does that work?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, that's a really great question. So, what I tell my students and how I explain coaching is that coaching is different than mentoring or just giving advice because the person that you're coaching actually has a specific goal that they want to achieve. So, whether that's the goal in business or career or personal life, a coach can work with you, sort of a general coach or a life coach can certainly work with you in all of those arenas of life. Because when I teach my students, it's actually an ?aha? moment where I remind them that physicians are people too.
And so, we have all of our aspects of life. We have our personal life. We have our finances. We have our spiritual life. We have what we'd like to do. We have our families, significant others, our personal development, all of those things. And we bring those all to work. They're all part of an integrated into our lives.
So, sometimes I'll have a doc that needs career coaching, but what we find out is that they're really struggling with their purpose and their mission. Or they're having trouble in their relationship, or with their kids or nowadays the fear and the cloud of COVID, which has been with us for over a year at this point. We're talking in February of 2021. It's been over a year that all of us have had to deal with the struggles and the confusion, the losses and the grief. And so, a coach can work with all of those emotions. They're not a therapist, but by being seen, heard and understood, and then moving towards a goal, that's what coaching is all about.
So, to parse it out, there are folks that do specifically business coaching, and that's important, especially for docs that are entrepreneurs, and they want to be able to move forward and create their own business. There are specific coaches that will take you from A to Z. This is how you create an LLC. This is how you make a business plan, and this is how you get on social media, et cetera. There are career coaches that specifically work on communication leadership. And so, if you're looking for those, they are segmented out.
But I believe that someone that is trained as a life coach can make a lot of headway with someone that wants coaching in any aspect of their life. Like the business is obviously specific skills. But a lot of docs that I coach, they do come because they're stymied in their career. They're having trouble with leadership. Some are directed to me because they're ?problem? docs.
And what I find is that if we can talk to them as a person, if they can be recognized for who they are, what their values are, their strengths are, and then create goals based on that, really seeing them first, then we can go a long way towards creating a life for them that is fulfilling. Whether that's non-clinical or clinical or a mix of the two.
John: Yeah. And I think that fits with what I've learned about coaching. As you said, you're not a consultant. You're not there to show them how to do a certain job or something. You're trying to get at, like you said, their purpose, their meaning, and have them discover it through the skills that you learn as a coach, from what I understand. And I've stayed away from coaching because it's a special skill and it's a special thing that you do and it definitely needs training to learn how to do that properly. But if somebody wants to ask me about a nonclinical job that I know about, well, I can tell them about that, but that's coaching. Some of that's mentoring, some of that's just talking with people.
Is there something you think in particular about coaching physicians, that's, I don't know if that's unique? I mean, obviously each profession is unique, but I feel like we're all family, because we've gone through the shared experience, which is in retrospect, not good in a lot of ways and the way it plays out and the intensity of it and sometimes the lack of attending to the personal issues. So, I guess that's my segue into that question. What do you think?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Yeah, what I think is that the thing that's unique with physicians is that they are such high achievers, that they often come around career coaching or personal coaching with some reluctance in some ways, even though they're reaching out. Because what they tend to forget is that they are human. We are asked to do superhuman things. We have seen things that people that are not physicians have not seen. We've seen tragedy, we've seen death. Even just with telling patients bad news, which can be, you have cancer, or it can be that you need testing. Some people are afraid of even just going to get their blood work done. A lot of times, what we're sharing with our patients is very intimate and we don't realize that. We don't realize the emotional tool that being a physician takes and the emotional strength that it takes.
So, I find that when I talk to physicians, we're talking a lot about self-care, we're talking about boundaries, we're talking about honoring ourself, rediscovering our purpose. Not being perfect, being okay with not being okay, and really honoring our goals, what we'd like to accomplish in life. Looking to our relationships, being mindful with our finances, looking at not staying with the Joneses and being independent and living our lives the way that we like to live them.
As physicians, we're trained to be very precise and not to make mistakes. And so, in coaching, we learned that sometimes being human is messy, sometimes it's okay to be perfect at work. Of course, we want to strive for that. But in our personal lives, sometimes we have to try things and fail. We have to try that hobby. We have to go on that trip. We have to have that difficult conversation with our spouse. We need to have that difficult conversation with ourselves sometimes.
Honestly, leaving medicine was one of the hardest things that I've ever done. I really felt leaving clinical medicine was so difficult because medicine was in my bones. I'd wanted to become a physician ever since I was 13 years old. And after I left clinical medicine, I should say, even going into a nonclinical job, I remember my first training. We were all giving each other high fives and we're out of there and all that stuff.
But I went through a grief process of probably about two years and I didn't realize it until after I was out of it. I kept thinking about going back to clinical, maybe I'll do part time. Maybe I'll do a mission trip, that kind of thing. And it wasn't until I left my first job and went into my second that I realized I'm not going back.
John: Yeah. There are so many mindset issues and there's baggage, whatever you want to call it. Part of it is from external, our expectations from others as well as ourselves. But how do you feel now about what you've decided to do? I mean, I obviously know the answer to this question but how is your emotional state these last few years in doing what you're doing?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Well, I feel very good about it. Like I say, it took a while to adjust. But I have to say that I have slept through the night, every night for the last eight years. I've been able to work remotely so I can travel. I've been able to move from Chicago to Denver. No problem. It was just a matter of changing time zones. And I feel very fortunate to have been able to make the switch over into nonclinical work. It was a good fit for me. It's not a good fit for everyone but it certainly was a good fit for me. And I wouldn't go back for anything. Like I say, I moved back to Denver and I live about five miles from the hospital and the surgery centers that I used to work at. I still have friends. I'm gone right by the hospital and felt like, ?Okay, fine. That was a phase of my life that I wouldn't take back. That I loved at one point?. Sometimes you need to move on and that's okay.
John: Yeah, absolutely. And interestingly, if you think about it, there are a lot of jobs and careers out there for physicians that are nonclinical and they're just waiting for physicians to enter them. They're physician jobs. And so, somebody has to do them and it's going to take a physician. And coaching other physicians is one thing that probably takes a physician for a lot of those people that need that kind of coaching.
So, I'm sure there's a percentage of my audience who's listening now and really is resonating with what you're saying. Obviously, there are others that say, ?Well, I just want to go do something?, but I think it's great. I want to pause here for a minute and remind everybody. I don't know if I did this before, but your website is drdianne.com. So, anything you're talking about from your own coaching to the Academy and your book is all there at drdianne.com. Correct?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: That's right. That's right.
John: So, I want to get that in always before the very end, because I'm not sure everybody listens to the very end. Now, we're going to talk a little bit before we go about the Physician Coaching Academy, because I just want to get an idea what is that really like? Who joins it? I think you're in the middle of a cohort now. I don't know if you can tell us a little bit without getting too specific how that's going and what it's like to be in that group.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, I'm very happy to tell you about it because I love teaching docs and other healthcare leaders how to become peer coaches. I love to see the transformation from being a little awkward about I don't know what I'm getting into, and breaking it down into pieces, specific skills that physicians, for the most part, they think, ?Oh, I can listen. Oh, I'm open?. But we start from the very beginning and it's a surprise and a revelation to the group when they get started. And by the end, they are successfully coaching. And I love it.
We do that in 10 weeks and it might seem short, but the reason why I can do it in 10 weeks is because physicians and leaders in healthcare are quick studies. And the folks that want to be there are there. They pay attention, they do the homework, they get involved and they get excited.
Now, in terms of just a little bit of the details of it, like I said, it's 10 weeks. It's a really intimate program. I usually don't take more than 10 students. It's all online. By the end, there's such a transformation and you really form a cohesive group because you're being coached and being coached, being vulnerable and sharing your struggles and successes as well. So, by the end, it's like summer camp. Like, I don't want to leave. And everybody's starting to virtually hugging each other.
Gosh, I have had students that want to take on a career in coaching. A lot of students like myself, they do coaching in addition to whatever they're doing. Most of them are still in clinical practice but they're in leadership positions. So, they're assistant deans. They're leaders of their residency program, their CMOs. And so, they are asked to create a peer coaching program, or they've been asked to do coaching and they think, ?Oh my gosh, I don't know how to do it?. And I really need some skills. As I said, there's some other docs that they want to take on coaching as their side gig. They want to become entrepreneurs and eventually they want to transition into full-time coaching.
So, what they all have in common is they have a drive. They want to learn the skills of coaching. They want to learn with the physician. They want to be in a cohort of like-minded folks. And they want to join the community of physicians who can powerfully coach each other. They want to be of service to the community of coaches.
John: Am I right in my assumption that part of it is practicing with the other members in terms of ?Okay, let's practice some coaching and apply the things that you're teaching them along the way??
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Oh, absolutely. See one, do one, teach one approach. It's like being back in med school or residency. We chat about what our experiences are. Actually, from the very first lesson you get homework. So, we talk about our experiences with the homework, which is very practical. Even the homework has a strong learning component. So, we have a brief discussion about the homework. I do a didactic session and then jump in and practice. And as we go on first, we have the training wheels on, and then I start taking them off. And that is just like training. So, the docs and the health care leaders, they feel very comfortable doing that method because that's what we're accustomed to.
But my goal is that by the end of each lesson, you have a tangible skill that you can use. And that is very important. I don't teach just theory. I teach practice. And that?s the way that we're used to learning.
John: Yeah. Absolutely. I'm a big supporter of coaching in general in whatever venue. And I liked a couple of things when I was looking over, what I could see of the program on your website, there's this whole philosophy. A lot of leadership involves coaching. Some informal, some formal. I mean, you could actually be a coach oriented leader and be very successful. And I think you mentioned that about sometimes just teaching these people, they're not going to go out and sell their coaching. They're going to use that coaching as an integral part of their leadership, which I think is just an awesome thing that's really key for many physicians. Because they are a little autocratic in a way, because of the way we're taught. And that's really not how you lead, like let's say a hospital or a department.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Exactly. Coaching type leadership, that's the new model. And I know that we tend as physicians to look within our own group. We look at studies and we look at our own publications. But if you look just a little outside, especially if you get into the business world and I'm in insurance. So, I'm in the business world myself. It's a corporate type of lifestyle. And as you become a leader, you do have to embrace more of that corporate mindset, leadership mindset, which includes managing money and managing people. So, who knows more about that and studies more about that than the business community? So, if you start reading Harvard business review, and you start looking into publications about business, then you'll find that coaching leadership style, that's the ?new? model of coaching. And so, in order to stay relevant, you need to adapt. Whether you're a physician leader or whether you've come from outside medicine, whether you're an HR leader or you've come from healthcare administration, it doesn't matter. This is the new wave and that's not going to change.
John: I just had this ?aha? moment really, as you were talking. A lot of people asked me, ?What can I do? Do I need to be certified? Do I need to have an MBA?? I said, no, when you're getting into a nonclinical job, you have to show interest, maybe dabble in it, do a pilot. But if they had a 10-week course on coaching and they wanted to be a leader that would be I'm demonstrating. I have a commitment to it. And by the way, I have this skill now that I can apply to my leadership. So, it's just another opportunity. I've seen people do it with informatics. They'll take a three-month course. It just gets you started.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Absolutely. And what I have found more and more is that the docs that come to my program, their organization pays for the training. So, their organization believes in the training that they're receiving. So, a lot of times you can talk to your organization or about the training. You can use your CME dollars because I offer CME along with the course. So, you could take the course and have a lot of fun, get the certification and get 15 credits of CME at the same time. So, it's a total win-win situation.
John: That?s great. I've seen more people starting to get the CME credit. It has to pertain obviously to practice in some way, even if it's indirect. Like opening a med spa. I don't know, maybe that wouldn?t apply. But this would definitely be suitable for CME, for sure.
All right, Dianne. Well, I think I've taken up a little bit too much of your time, but we've covered a lot and that's a good place to end, I think, because if someone's interest is peaked, then they should check it out again at drdianne.com.
Anything else you want to add to the conversation at this point before we go and or anything that I missed in terms of what you're up to?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Well, thank you. I'd just like to add one more thing. And that is that if docs are interested in coaching, even if they're not interested in doing my coach training, but they want to learn what the heck is coaching, and want to get an experience of coach training, the way that I train, you can go onto the website. And if you sign up, then I do a 15-minute training, which is basically coaching and self-coaching one-on-one. So, you will, again, because I like to teach tools, by the end of that 15-minute training, you will have some tools and how to coach yourself or coach others. Of course, it's the outlines, kind of like a soap note. So, you learn the basics, the structure, but of course, you have to continue on with training to learn the art of coaching. And if you join the program, that's what you'll learn. The art of coaching. But as my gift to you all physicians, I want you to learn something from me. And so, sign up and you'll get that 15-minute training.
John: That's good. Look for that. And if they have any questions, is there a contact form or an email form that they can use to ask?
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Absolutely. I think it's on the first page in the website. Just go on there, shoot me an email, and I'm more than happy to talk with you. Also, through the website, you can get on there and make an appointment to talk with me face-to-face and ask any questions that you might like either about personal coaching or about joining the Academy.
John: Well, I want to thank you very much, Dianne, for coming on today and sharing this. I've found it to be fascinating. And I'm glad that you were able to answer all the questions I had today.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: Well, you're very welcome and I so appreciate the opportunity to be able to share with your audience. And again, thank you for all the years that you have been podcasting and sharing opening physician's minds to the possibilities that are outside of clinical medicine. And I encourage you all to listen to Dr. Jurica?s other episodes, learn what you can, don't be afraid, dip your toe in the water, and you'll still be a physician for the rest of your life.
John: Absolutely.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: So again, different role, and expand your world.
John: Excellent words of wisdom there. All right. Well, then I will say goodbye and thanks again.
Dr. Dianne Ansari-Winn: You're very welcome.
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