This week John spends a few minutes sharing his thoughts on one of three popular full-time careers when preparing to “level up.”

Today John delves into the idea of “leveling up”- a journey of self-improvement that can lead you to a more satisfying and financially rewarding career. Drawing inspiration from professional athletes and attorneys he shares how to take stock of your strengths, identify areas for growth, and set new goals to help you become the best version of yourself.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Three Most Popular Full-time Careers for Physicians Seeking a Change

Suppose you’re a physician considering a career shift. In that case, John highlights three nonclinical roles that might be perfect for you: hospital Chief Medical Officer (CMO), pharma Medical Science Liaison (MSL), and insurance company Utilization Management (UM) Medical Director. These roles offer improved work-life balance, competitive pay, and full-time opportunities with major organizations. John describes each popular full-time career and how you can smoothly transition.

Your Network is Your Net Worth: Resources to Help You Succeed

Transitioning to a new career isn’t just about what you know, it’s also about who you know. In this section, Dr. John reminds us of the importance of building a strong professional network and leveraging resources like LinkedIn, the American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL), and the MSL Society. He also recommends joining online communities like the Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook group, where you can connect with others who’ve made similar transitions and get advice on your next steps.

Summary

Sometimes it makes sense to level up your career to one that offers better pay and work-life balance. The three options described today have demonstrated that they generally meet those goals. If you're looking for full-time employment in a well-established industry John advises you to consider one of these popular options. 

Links for Today's Episode:

• How to Become CMO in a Year – 052
• 4 Things the CMO Should Never Say to the CEO – 251
• Hospital Management Career Bundle Tactics to Quickly Prepare for a Hospital Management Job
• Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job
• Complete the Journey to Your First Fabulous MSL Job – 277
• Build a Rewarding Career as an MSL – Use Coupon Code HALFOFF to purchase for only $198
• How To Secure Your First Utilization Management Job
• The Truth About Medical Specialists and UM Jobs
• American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL)
• Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook Group
• MSL Society
• Check out the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit to learn about MORE career options.

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 368

First Consider the Most Popular Full-Time Careers

John: Okay, nonclinical nation, many of you are ready to make a change in your professional life. It may be because you're frustrated and your work-life balance is shot, or maybe it's just because you're ready to level up.

What do I mean by leveling up? Well, leveling up can be described as a process of self-development or to become a better version of yourself. This can include identifying weaknesses and strengths, setting goals, replacing old habits with new habits, focus on success, and possibly moving to a career that's more satisfying and financially rewarding.

As I was thinking about this concept, I was trying to get examples, and I have two examples that really come to mind.

The first one is professional athletes. Some professional athletes are forced to retire. Some just reach their peak and decide after they've done everything they want to do, they just retire, but they have a lot of notoriety and they have hopefully saved up some money. And again, it's kind of parallel to what physicians can do.

I think of examples like those of Magic Johnson's business ventures in broadcasting, music, film, and finance, or John Elway's investments in dealerships in the Denver area that he said later sold off, and then him investing in the Colorado Crush of the Arena Football League in 2002. And of course, many successful athletes have finished their careers as athletes, and then leveled up to do something else very powerful.

Now, those might seem like outliers. Maybe those are just a select few, but I also think of attorneys. There are many attorneys who never practice, or let's say they finish law school, they pass their bar, and they do work for a while in the industry, in law, doing something, but then they find that they can take everything they've learned in law school and with their early experiences as an attorney and segue into another career, which they level up.

You can look around and see a lot of attorneys working in C suite of various companies, not actually practicing law, but applying what they learned as leaders, as researchers, as presenters, and they apply to the new job. You're an attorney and you have a background in healthcare law, well, you can do that with a big firm, or you can actually go and become part of a team to run a healthcare organization, and obviously all those skills will come in handy.

I interviewed somebody who was trained as an attorney. He, for a little while, was helping physicians with their contract negotiations as an attorney. What he did was leverage that to become more of an agent. He helps physicians negotiate better contracts as an agent, but not as an attorney. In fact, he still has attorneys review the contracts. That's a way to level up.

I think the physicians can do the same thing. Healthcare is the largest industry in the United States, and there are positions for physicians in every major aspect of healthcare. Maybe it's natural to think after a few years of being in the trenches and seeing patients, at some point it gets old, and now you look for the next challenge, and that's what we call leveling up.

And so, I want to talk about three of the positions that you should consider, particularly if you're in a big hurry. Now, you can spend six, 12, 18 months researching all of the possible nonclinical careers out there, but if you're looking for a particular type of career that I'll mention in a minute, then maybe you should select from one of the three most commonly pursued careers and go from there, and that's what I'm going to talk about today, the pros, the cons, some of the tactics for doing this, and so forth. They definitely provide a better lifestyle, and they pay well, and so I thought I would focus on those today.

Those careers are those of a chief medical officer at a hospital or health system, medical science liaison, or UM medical director. Now, they're all full-time jobs. We're not going to mess around with starting a new business or getting a part-time job and then segwaying to maybe looking for two or three different part-time jobs that you can patch together like I've talked about before, but these are full-time jobs. They involve employment with a large organization. They have a lot of the usual benefits that only large organizations provide, and they're really seen by physicians as very, very viable options. And so, I thought, "Well, if I can provide examples of these three and tell you a little bit about each of them, maybe that can kind of jumpstart your process of leveling up."

All right, I have definitely interviewed multiple physicians doing all of these jobs. I personally have been a chief medical officer, know many other chief medical officers and other senior executives in hospitals that are physicians. I've interviewed many medical science liaisons, which represents the pharma industry. And then the third is, again, one of the most common, and maybe somewhat underappreciated, and that's being a medical director for a health insurance company, or you might call them a healthcare payer, one of the big ones. That's what I want to talk about today.

Let's talk about the chief medical officer first. What about that? How do we do that? And one of the things that comes up, because maybe I'm comparing these three directly, and it's a little bit, I wouldn't say disingenuous, but it's not correct to, let's say, talk about a new MSL and someone who's becoming a new CMO. CMO is a pretty high-level position. Now, I was going to talk about medical directors in the hospital setting, and it is the stepping stone to becoming a CMO. Both those jobs pay well, they have great benefits, and the lifestyle is much better than, let's say, a practicing physician as an anesthesiologist or an ER doctor in the hospital.

But most medical directors that work in the hospital setting are medical directors for a service line, which means they're usually practicing at least half-time as well. I wouldn't want to call that medical director position as a full-time position. Now, there are some full-time medical director positions. If you're in a large enough hospital and you can be a medical director for quality improvement or for informatics or for utilization management or, let's say, even coding and documentation, those can all be full-time jobs. They can pay well. You can replace your clinical salary for sure. And they do serve as a stepping stone, though, to the ultimate hospital environment job, which would be that of a chief medical officer or one of the other senior positions like chief medical information officer or chief quality officer, something like that.

Now, as far as getting from your medical director role up to the CMO role, which is that last step before, but you could eventually become a COO or even a CEO of a hospital. But in focusing on the CMO role, you're going to do some of these things that we will talk about with all three positions, really.

Maybe a little different here. You might want to get an executive coach or mentor. You definitely want to join LinkedIn because you're going to do a lot of your networking and looking for jobs on LinkedIn if you don't have a way to segue up to the current institution where you're already working.

One of the resources is the AAPL, which is the American Association for Physician Leadership, which is at physicianleaders.org. They have a bunch of books. There's a bunch of other books you can look at for healthcare finances and leadership and so forth.

And the question with that job is, "Does it require relocation?" If you're in a large metropolitan area, there's probably multiple systems where you could look for a job, but it's not uncommon to be able to work your way up an institution's hierarchy, work as a medical director, take on more responsibility over time while you gradually decrease your practice. And ultimately, while you might keep your license, you reach a point where you really don't need a license.

I would maintain it only because sometimes when you're looking to change to a CMO role at another organization, they want you to have the license. I think sometimes that's because they might be using your license for some things, having to do with the pharmacy or covering for ordering drugs for different units. But ultimately, you won't really need to have that license because you're no longer seeing patients. Although as a CMO, you can continue to see patients once a week or every other week or so if you want to continue to do that.

But it's one of those jobs that you should think of right off the bat if you're in a position that enables you to pursue that kind of job. It's not right for everybody. If you're a dermatologist working in an outpatient setting or if you've never had privileges at a hospital, it makes it difficult to start that job search from nothing as opposed to being one of these people in the hospital that are there all the time, the emergency physicians, anesthesiologists and various surgeons and so forth. Geriatricians and hospitalists are typical, very common to move up that path. So that's the first one.

With that, I think I'll move on to the next one, which is medical science liaison. We've talked about this before. It's a very common and attractive position. It really doesn't require any special background. I think it's helpful if you have experience in working with particular drugs or drug classes. It's kind of whatever's popular at the time. Oncologists typically can get into pharma very easily. They'll often go into more of the clinical research side of things, but as an oncologist, it would be very easy to become an MSL, but also pretty much anyone who's using certain drugs and classes of drugs, whether it's cardiology, even gynecologists and family physicians, internists for sure. There's a big push in GI drugs lately. So if you were doing GI work and wanted to transition to this role, it'd probably be fairly easily.

And there are even positions for people that don't have a residency and haven't been in practice, but we're really focusing on those who have been in practice and want to level up to something new with a better lifestyle, but actually paying equal to or more in the long run than what you're doing now. And as I said, we're going to focus on some of those drugs to help convince our new employer.

As far as resources to try and move into this role, you want to commiserate with others that are doing it, you want to go on LinkedIn, you want to have a great profile. This applies to all three. Great LinkedIn profile, networking on LinkedIn, engage with peers. You can join the MSL Society, which the link there is themsls.org. They have a lot in there for people who are already medical science liaisons, but you can imagine just taking a few entry-level courses and reading about becoming an MSL and being an MSL and exceeding and excelling as an MSL would be very helpful. And in addition, you'll learn the language that they speak.

And when you're doing interviews and submitting your resume, you want to sprinkle those and your LinkedIn profile with the vernacular that's not used outside of the pharma industry. And some of it's not even used by anyone other than medical science liaisons. I do also mention the Contract Research Organization, CRO, because you can work directly for a pharmaceutical company as an MSL, but a lot of MSLs work for contract research organizations.

A CRO has different names, it could be the Contract Research Organization, it could be Contract Resource Organization, but they provide resources to pharma companies for those things that they don't want to keep hiring for. And sometimes it's MSLs, it can be other things, it could be the components that actually provide the studies, that monitor the studies and so forth.

You oftentimes will find that CROs are hiring medical science liaisons a little quicker than the pharmaceutical companies go. And all of these things are dependent on what is going on in the industry, how much demand there is based on what new drugs are being released by various companies. And it's at that point of release that MSLs get heavily involved. It's an educational role, it's not a marketing or sales role.

I remember once talking to a guest who's a pediatrician and she didn't think there was any way she could be employed by a pharma company, but because of all the experience she had with vaccines, they happened to be looking for somebody that had that experience and she was able to get a job. And I think initially she was employed by a CRO and then later moved up to a full-time position either with the CRO or with the pharma company itself. That's the second one I wanted to mention today. Don't forget to look at the MSL Society to get some ideas on how to approach that goal.

The last one I want to talk about today, again, one of the big three, is working as a medical director for a utilization management company, working for a large payer. Again, that doesn't require any special background. If you've done chart reviews before in the hospital setting, particularly maybe you've been a physician advisor for UM in the hospital, that might help. All the big insurance companies hire these people, but they also sometimes farm this out to something called an IRO, which is an independent review organization.

And so, many people when they're starting out and becoming a UM or a benefits management medical director, they'll apply at an IRO first and they'll find a job part-time. This is the one that's a little easier to do, kind of the pilots where you're still doing your old job. You're doing some part-time chart reviews for an IRO and then some IROs will hire you full-time.

One of my colleagues really, he hasn't been a guest on the podcast yet. I'm probably going to have him on someday, but he was a surgeon and he just wanted to spend more time with his kids. And he thought, "Well, I don't know. I make a fair amount of money as a surgeon but I'm not having any time with my kids. I'm not spending enough time with my kids. They're growing up, I'm missing on that." And he said, "I'm going to level up to one of these different careers." And so, he did start working as a medical director for an independent review organization and he actually really enjoys it. In addition to doing general sort of chart review work, he's also serving as a resource for those surgical cases. So you can always get that. Even if you're a specialist, sometimes they have special roles for you. One of my other guests or the other one that was a guest as opposed to this first example, he was an invasive cardiologist for pediatrics.

And yeah, he's been working at a health system or a health insurer rather for gosh, at least five or six years now since I interviewed him. And he's very happy and he actually helps other people do that. The resources for that, besides looking around for IROs, if you want a list of some of the IROs, they're basically the ones that are certified. You can go to NAIRO, which is the National Association of IROs at nairo.org/members. You'll get a list of all the NAIRO members and you can go look at their websites to see if they're hiring the type of medical director that you might be looking at. And again, these can be for part-time positions to get you started, to get you exposed.

You can also go to Facebook and look for the Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook group. It's got at least 10,000 members now. It's pretty big group. And everybody in there is kind of talking about working as a payer or a health insurer UM medical director and other associated types of positions.

All the big insurance companies definitely will hire these people as well. Whether we're talking about Cigna or Centene or several others, any of the big ones, they all have them. But they also outsource some of the work to the IROs. Again, I will remind you that for all these positions, it's important to be on LinkedIn. It's important to have a complete profile. It's important to use LinkedIn and sometimes Doximity to locate your colleagues and network with them. See if some of them are already doing one of these jobs.

Like I said, maybe it's time to level up and this is how you can get started. And if one of these three positions sounds right for you, then you can just jump in now and start working on it and see what you think.

The other thing I would say is besides what I've already mentioned in terms of the benefits is they have great benefit packages in most of these places. You've got health insurance, disability insurance, retirement plans, four to six weeks of paid time off. And some of them will even give physicians deferred compensation benefits. So that can be nice for your retirement planning.

Well, I guess that's it for today's discussion. Thousands of physicians literally just in the last few years have found happiness in each of these three careers. They all offer full-time salaries, generally good benefits, and there are resources that can help you get started. Just check out those resources and get going. And if you have any questions, you can always contact me.

If you want to access everything that I've talked about today easily, you can go to the show notes. You'll also get a link to the podcast episode. You'll get related links, several related links actually and the transcript. And you can find all that at nonclinicalphysicians.com/popular-full-time-careers.

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Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post First Consider The Most Popular Full-Time Careers appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This week you will hear priceless advice from an expert in biopharma, Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley. She also brings her experience as a physician career coach and mentor to bear during our conversation.

Over the past five years, Michelle has made significant strides in her biotech career. And she offers valuable insights and advice for physicians looking to transition into the industry.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Power of Relationships in Career Transitions

Michelle highlights the critical role of networking in securing nonclinical roles. “These jobs are all about relationships. Often, you end up getting a job not because you’re the best fit, but because you know someone,” she explains.

She recommends using platforms like LinkedIn and Doximity to connect with industry professionals and seek advice and opportunities.

Priceless Advice from an Expert

When pursuing a job in the biopharma sector, Michelle advises against additional certifications or degrees as the first step. Instead, she suggests focusing on building transferable skills and relationships within the industry. “You shouldn’t have to jump through hoops to get a job. You likely already have the knowledge and skills needed,” she assures.

She also advises us to explore the Medical Affairs Professional Society for useful advice and information.

Encouragement for Aspiring Biopharma Professionals

Don’t lose confidence in yourself. We all face rejection and setbacks, but remember, you are good enough for these roles. Keep believing in yourself and stay persistent. – Michelle Mudge-Riley

Summary

To connect with Dr. Mudge-Riley and learn from her experiences, you can find her on LinkedIn, another resource for priceless advice from an expert. She also recommends checking out the Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS) as a fantastic resource for networking and professional growth in the medical affairs field.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley's LinkedIn
• Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS) 
• The Best Biopharma Positions For Motivated Practicing Physicians
• Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job
• Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job: A PNC Classic from 2021
• Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311
• Research and Development in Nonclinical Pharma Careers
• The Wonderful World of Nonclinical Pharma Careers

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 364

Priceless Advice From An Expert In The BioPharma Industry

- Interview with Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley

John: I'm so happy to welcome today's guest back to the podcast. She's been on the podcast before, but it has been quite a while. She's known as an expert in career transition through coaching and live events, but really she has become an expert in biopharma because she's been working in biopharma and doing some pretty interesting things. I'm really happy to welcome Michelle Mudge-Riley here to the podcast. Hi, Michelle.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Hi, John. So nice to be back with you again.

John: It's great to see you. We were just reminiscing before we started our interview here, but why don't you fill us in a little bit with the highlights of what has transpired in the last five years, let's say, because that's almost as long as it's been since we spoke on the podcast.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Sure. Sounds good. And it really is unbelievable that it's been five years. I know it seems a long time when you're looking at it day to day, but there's so many things you look back and you think, wow, it's been five years or it's been 10 years or it's been years. And yeah, this is a perfect example of that. Yeah, I was the doctor's doctor known as that probably 10, 8 years ago, as I had a thriving business as a career transition coach for physicians. I ran an online and in-person conference. And I also worked for a small boutique consulting company at the time, which enabled me to do a lot of these extra things on the side.

And in my role in that consulting company, I was the medical director for small, medium and large biotech companies. I really enjoyed doing that as well as my side gigs. When COVID hit, that changed everything for everyone. And I won't get into the things that I did with my side gig at that point, but I made some personal decisions that I wanted to look back at my career and have something a little bit different than what I was currently doing. It was like a lot of people, a good time for a change. And that biggest change was that I really wanted to go to the client side, work for a biotech company and experience what it was like on that side versus the consulting side. That's where we were back in 2020.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Now that's a big commitment to make, because you had been doing different things. And of course, even way back before all that, you had a master's degree and did other things as a physician, but that's a big commitment. And as I saw what you were doing, because I could always look on LinkedIn and hopefully you were keeping that up to date. I could see that you were getting involved in more and more different things. I thought you'd be perfect to give us another perspective. I've interviewed a few people working in pharma, but it's usually a specific position we focus on, but I think you can give me a little more of a better perspective, because knowing how physicians are searching for jobs that are more fulfilling and satisfying, and a lot have thought about how can I get into biopharma? So that's why I thought I'd have you come back and enlighten us a little bit today. What is it that interested you about biotech and pharma personally?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, great, great question here. When I started to make my transition over 20 years ago from clinical practice, I considered biotech and pharma and device, and actually did not consider it as seriously as I should have. I thought it was the dark side. I thought it's an easy choice. If you don't want to be a practicing physician, you think about insurance, or you think about pharma. And I didn't want to be such a clich�.

I dabbled a little, but ended up, you're right, getting a master's degree, getting a nutrition, additional training there. I worked for a number of different firms, an employee benefits firm, and then multiple consulting firms. I started some other businesses. And I slowly was always seeing this common thread of being involved with biotech in some way. And I can tell you that what I have done for the past five years has been so fulfilling and so much fun. It's completely changed my life being working directly for a biotech company. And I will most likely finish out my career doing this.

I still have some side gigs. I think that's important. I've always talked about multiple irons in the fire, because it's really easy to get so caught up in the day to day. And you never really know what's going to happen. COVID's another great example, never saw that coming. So making sure that you're diversifying yourself and your career, I still maintain that that's really, really important within compliance, of course, if you're working for a company, that's going to be an issue, which we won't go into today. But it's really fascinating how much fun it is working for biotech. And I know we're going to talk a little bit about that today.

John: Yeah. Well, what's so fun about it? What is it that you personally find to be the fun parts? Because something that's fun for you might not be fun for somebody else. But for you personally, what is it that you like about being involved with the type of company that you are?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, there are two big things that I love about my job. And one is the actual work. And that was something that I've always talked about as being really important, but really hard to find with a career, because you may be influenced by your boss or your colleagues or the autonomy or lack thereof, or all of these other little things, which are also important, by the way. But if you don't like the work, that will drive you to burnout and to just being not your best self.

And so, for me, the work is something I love. I love being able to be able to understand the scientific articles and explain them to others, talk amongst my colleagues about the science and the medicine aspects, learn the new things that we don't learn in medical school about clinical trials and all the aspects. Working with the FDA, looking at the different clinical endpoints, inclusion criteria, talking about the criticisms of different trials and how they compare or don't, and working with other physicians who are experts in the field.

We should get into that too, because that's really interesting working with other physicians, because most people in my position at a pharmaceutical company or device company, they are physicians or their PhDs. And so, how does that differ from the physicians that I work with that are still in practice? But that's an aspect I really, really like as well.

The last part about what I really like about my job is working with very smart and really quirky colleagues. Anyone who's really smart, I feel like has some unique aspect about them that kind of makes them quirky. And I love that about people, just finding out what their unique characteristics are and being able to talk with them about science and just really high level complex stuff, but also get to know them as people and what their hobbies are, what they like to do. They like to go axe throwing or something else that you wouldn't think about. And most people would never think about doing either. Typically people in these companies, they have these really cool hobbies that you then get to learn about.

John: It reminds me about some of the things when I was chief medical officer and thinking back, what did I really like? I really liked the science behind the quality improvement. I would sit in my office by myself creating reports for the board and that. And so, I'm more of an introvert, but that's what I liked. And I had no trouble spending two or three hours doing this report and then explaining it to, let's say, the board or somebody else.

The other thing you mentioned, like the quirky people, our CMO was a nurse. CMO, he was a nurse of course. And he raised chickens. I'm like, okay, there's a weird quirky thing to do. And he'd go to not conferences, but they'd have these shows where he could find the best new chicken breed out there. It's like, you got to be kidding me. But yeah, it's good. It's different than being face-to-face with patients all day. And you do get to interact with physicians in other realms clinically. And the thing again about the pharma and the biotech, it's so scientific. If you have a scientific mind, I think you really fit in well there.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. Yes. I completely agree. I have a colleague who likes to fix coffee makers. How interesting is that? And how different? I would not really thought about doing that, but yeah, just buying coffee makers that may have a small problem and fixing them, making them look really good and selling them. It's interesting.

John: That's interesting. And if yours breaks down, well, you know where to go.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Right. Exactly.

John: To be an entrepreneur and to have to build something yourself is one thing, but tell me, there was something very comforting about being part of a large corporation and probably most pharma companies are massively larger than let's say a hospital that I worked for, but there was just a consistency and the hours were regular and there was a nice IRA or whatever, but that wasn't a pension anymore. But yeah, they had that all worked out. So you find some of that helpful and beneficial as well?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. I think the constant struggle of an entrepreneur is can get old and that grind can get to be something that I've spoken with other physicians who have started companies, sold companies, and then moved into more of a corporate job or just a job where they receive a regular paycheck. It's part of that. Yes. But I will say that in biotech, it's not a massive company all the time that there are really small biotech pharma device companies and they have a different culture than the larger companies. So if someone has tried this before and they haven't really flourished in the way that they want, maybe it's just a matter of a small company versus a large company.

John: How do you prepare for that? What advice do you have? Is there something I can do ahead of time that gives me just a little bit of exposure, maybe a little certain skills that would be good for biotech versus a large pharma company, something like that. Any thoughts on that?Dr.

Michelle Mudge-Riley: It's really hard because you'll hear about physicians and others who have tried for years to get into a biotech company or an insurance company or just to get into this nonclinical career space and have had a lot of difficulty. And so that's a common question. What sort of certifications do you need? What sort of degree? Should I go get an MBA? What have you done to make you successful? And I think the number one thing is that this is really not what people want to hear, but this is what I see over and over and I experienced myself. It's talking to others. It's getting out to people that you don't know that are working in the space and talking to them about what they do.

All of these things are relationship driven type jobs. And often you end up getting your job, maybe not because you're the best fit, but because you knew someone. I don't know, for better for worse, that's how it goes. Because with all of these applicant tracking systems and people not knowing others, you may be the perfect fit for a job or multiple jobs, and you won't even get an interview and that gets people really down. I get it. It's so humbling, but it's not you. It's the system and the system is not perfect. And so, the more people you can talk to and find out about keywords to use, what the industry is actually like, what sort of transferable skills you have. I know you talk about transferable skills on your podcast a lot, and who's there at the company that maybe went to your universe. It could be as simple as that to get that interview. And then everyone likes you when they're talking to you because physicians are typically likable people and we all have the ability to go work at a biotech company if we wanted to.

John: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Between LinkedIn and Doximity, you can probably locate most of your former med school cohorts, your residency, your fellowship, whatever it might be. And chances are someone out of all those hundreds of people that you know, is doing something kind of maybe what you're thinking about. So I've heard that before. And I'm being an introvert. I don't like to really necessarily reach out to people, cold call them, but an email or call they really, they always respond positively in my experience and what I've talked to people about.

I was going to ask you another thing, and it's maybe more about pharma than biotech. See what you think about this. But I imagine if I go on to Pfizer's website and try and apply for a job, I've got about a one in a million chance. But I know pharmaceutical companies use something called the CRO, which we've talked about here before, contract research organization is one definition. But in your experience, whether yourself or with others in businesses you've been involved with, is that something that it can be a bit of a shortcut, or a little easier to get hired than to go directly for one big company?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think it's all about timing. There's some good TED talks that really speak to this. It's all about timing. There are some people who apply to jobs at Pfizer, J&J, or some of these massive companies that you might think of off the top of your head that are pharmaceutical companies when you're starting to think about it. And they're applying, they get the job. But yeah, you're right. In general, these positions, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people applying. And so, it's a numbers game in a lot of aspects. And if you're finding a CRO, or maybe a smaller biotech company that people haven't heard of before, it's numbers game, it's just going to be less applicants. And maybe your application, your resume will catch someone's eye. A lot of this, again, is luck, timing, and you can increase your chances by talking to people in those relationships.

John: It's always better to have someone you can actually send your resume to, even if you go through the electronic version of that, it's still nice to have a human that might be able to sit through them and find yours. See, with the pandemic, it really kind of blew things up a bit. But there used to be some large national meetings that would occur every once in a while. And you could just show up or maybe attend the meeting, maybe it was on some topic related to a diagnostic class or something. And then you could run into people and meet them, take their cards. Does that still happen, do you think?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. I think that still happens a lot. The Medical Affairs Professional Society, or MAPS, is a great example. They have an annual meeting every year in the US. They also have one in the EU every year. That's a great place to maybe start that networking or go to the meeting. It's not a guarantee. So just knowing that ahead of time is important.

John: Let me ask you a definition issue. Because one thing you can do is you can maybe look up people on LinkedIn, again, see if it cross paths with something else you've done in life. But the thing is, what are you looking for? Like medical director, it's a common term in pharma, biotech, medical devices, it doesn't mean that much per se, because it's such a general term. Would that be something you would shoot for right away? Or are there other entry level positions one might usually go to?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, that's a tough one. Because you're right, medical director is such an ambiguous term. And it can mean something different in a lot different industries and at a lot of different companies. It's a good term, but it's going to be tough to use to search and find what you need there.

Medical Science Liaison is more of an entry level sometimes type job into these companies. The thing about an MSL is it's quite different from a medical director. And working as an MSL means you are working within medical affairs, whereas maybe some physicians will be a better fit to work for clinical development, or maybe even clinical operations. Or they may feel like the MSL role is a little bit of a demotion. So, you really have to balance all of those things.

If you're looking to find people in a medical director role, which I think is a really doable and achievable entry level role for most physicians, because we have the degree, we have the background, we have the clinical knowledge, and that's really looked at in a positive way, is to search by different companies. Maybe make a list of companies and then do that cross check and cross reference on LinkedIn. And then you can find people maybe a little bit easier within these different departments at that company.

John: Now, here's the question I've never asked anyone. But again, I'm always noticing these terms and trying to keep them all straight. But I've seen a number of people that the word global is in part, like global medical director, global this, global that. I assume that means because it's international. But what the heck does that really mean? Does it mean you're traveling the globe to do your work? Or what's your experience with that?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: You mean something different at every company. It most likely means that you are on the global team, which means you'll interact with colleagues in the EU or Asia, just somewhere other than the United States. But doesn't necessarily mean that you're traveling there. But it may, it may mean you're traveling there a lot. So it's very different depending on the company.

John: See, I talked to somebody about medical device, he teaches people how to do the MDR stuff in Great Britain. And his comment was though, let's say you're on that side of the pond, and you're looking for a job like this, because we get people that go back and forth. And he said, whatever you're doing there in Europe usually is going to apply in the United States, because all the companies in Europe that make drugs and biotech, they want to also sell in the United States. That can be a good thing to know that there's options on both sides of the Atlantic.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Absolutely, yes, there is a lot of money in drugs in the US for better for worse. We could have a whole conversation about the ethics behind that. And is this the right thing? And how does this work needed for R&D? Let's not go down any of those routes. But you're right. Yes.

John: But I think they're big businesses. And so, they either hire a lot of people directly or indirectly. So that's good. It's a good option for physicians, we're scientists, and we most of us use drugs and medical devices so that kind of makes for a natural transition.

I think you alluded to this next question, but I have it on my list. I'm going to double check. That has to do with how to prepare or to increase your chances. I know we both don't tell people to go out and spend $60,000 or $100,000 on MBA just to get a job in a pharma company. But is there anything out there in terms of maybe a certificate exposure to research? I don't know, ways to get a little bit on your resume that might be might demonstrate some knowledge?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah. I wish but not really. It really comes down to all the things that I talked about before. The timing, the knowing people the right place, right time, you can get certifications just to make sure that you know about these different topics, or you're well educated, you can do a good job in the interviews. And that's great. And maybe that will help you a bit. But it's nothing is a slam dunk guarantee. That's the really hard part about all of this. I wish there was. But if there was, we would already know about it now, I guess, right?

John: Yeah, I think it gets back to what you said earlier, if you can have a connection and find out, narrow your search down based on talking to people, you may find in that particular job that this particular certification might help you get that job, but it's not going to apply across the board.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. And if you're truly interested in that topic, getting that certification is only going to help you. And that's good, you should never just be doing things to get the job. In two years, you're going to be tired of it, you're going to be moving on anyway. So, try to also check your own self and make sure that you're doing these things, because you want this information. And would you do it anyway? Maybe if it's a little bit? Well, no, probably not, a little bit it's okay. But if it's you're just doing this to get the job, that may be also a little bit of a signal that this isn't the right field, or maybe looking at an easier way to do it, because you shouldn't be killing yourself to try to get that job.

John: Yeah, you should have the knowledge and a lot of the skills that already that would apply in that job.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes.

John: Because like you said, so many of them are filled by physicians. So there is a demand there. And it's just a matter of getting that communicated across to the company in the HR department that you're applying to. Okay, Michelle, well, I think I've bent your ear for long enough here. So why don't you close by giving our listeners here some any last minute advice or positive words of encouragement for those that are thinking "I do want to try something different. And I do think it's in the biotech or biopharma area."

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is something that I usually mentioned, so people have heard me speak before they've heard this, and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's lose confidence in yourself. And I'm just as guilty of it as others. We go through these phases where we're so beaten down by rejection, and things not working out, it's really easy to start thinking that you're not good enough, you don't know enough, you're not smart enough, not good looking enough, not tall enough, you're never going to make it. I hate those periods, but we all go through them. And that's what's going to just bring you down even more. Because when you're when you're in that place, you can't be the person that you are. And I think all of us as physicians, we got into med school, we got through at least a year, most of us all the years and all the residency, but whether you cut it short or not, you still were able to get there. And you are good enough to be in one of these jobs.

So don't lose confidence in yourself, do whatever it takes, have your support system, find a therapist, find a coach, find whatever it takes to just kind of get yourself to the point where you're able to talk about your strengths and your weaknesses, but be able to articulate what you want to do, and why you want to do it and why you're a good fit. And then it's a numbers game. It's annoying like that, but it is.

John: Yeah, and I know that you and I both could give dozens, if not hundreds of examples of physicians who have done that, and they thought it was kind of impossible at first, and then they realized "No, it's not." And now they're having great careers and loving it. So that's excellent reminder.

All right, Michelle, with that, I think it's time to say goodbye. I will tell people, I have links in the show notes, just reminding them that they can find you at LinkedIn. And that'd probably be the best way to reach out to you if they have any questions or things they want to double check. Maybe they went to school with you, and they've lost touch. Maybe you can help them get a job in pharma. But anyway, with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: That sounds great. Thanks, John. Thanks for your time. Thanks for having me.

John: You're welcome.

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The post Priceless Advice From an Expert in The BioPharma Industry appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In this week's show, an interview from the archives with Dr.Laura McKain explains how to land a pharma clinical development job.

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From Clinical Medicine to Clinical Development

Laura received her medical degree from Georgetown University in Washington, DC, and completed her training in obstetrics and gynecology at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia. She was in private practice for twelve years where her clinical interests included well-women care, contraception, HPV, menopause management, as well as general and high-risk obstetrics.

Anybody that feels miserable and trapped… You may feel like you have no options but, I promise you, you have a thousand different options. – Dr. Laura McKain

Subsequently, Laura transitioned her career to the pharmaceutical industry. There she was involved in clinical development projects encompassing various therapeutic areas. During her tenure, she brought two new therapeutics to market.

Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job

She recently retired from full-time work. That allowed her to focus on helping other physicians find new nonclinical careers. She does that in several ways. And she is very confident that almost any physician in practice can make a move to a pharmaceutical job.

She is a career coach and resumé expert at mckainconsulting.com. And, she founded the Physician Nonclinical Career Hunters Facebook Group. Opened 8 years ago, it now serves 30,000+ members. It is the premier group to connect with other physicians, find job openings, and obtain valuable advice and mentorship about nonclinical careers.

During our interview, she described the tactics she recommends to find a clinical development job. She also defines job descriptions used in the pharma industry, and which jobs are the easiest to secure.

Summary

Dr. McKain provides lots of actionable advice in today's interview. She is a great resource for information and coaching about nonclinical careers. And she continues to grow her popular Facebook Group where you can learn more about how to land a pharma clinical development job.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

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Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Laura McKain's Website
• Physician Nonclinical Career Hunters Facebook Group
• The Best Biopharma Positions For Motivated Practicing Physicians
• Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311
• Research and Development in Nonclinical Pharma Careers
• Medical Science Liaison Is Still a Fantastic Pharma Job – 261
• Highlight These 5 Experiences to Land Your First Pharma Job – 242
• Use These Simple Tactics to Land a Fantastic First Pharma Job – 209
• How to Find a Job in Pharma That You Love – 184
• How to Claim Your First Job in Industry – 168
• Nonclinical Physicians YouTube Channel
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit (Use Coupon Code 30-OFF)

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 214

How Does a Physician Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job?

John: Today on the podcast I really hope to bring more clarity to the issue of jobs and pharma, particularly those in clinical development. My guest today is definitely an expert in this topic. She's a physician coach. She's a resume consultant or expert, whatever you want to call it. And she's also the founder of The Physician Nonclinical Career Hunters Facebook group, which I think most of you know about. Dr. Laura McKain, hello, and welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Laura McKain: Hi John. What a great pleasure to finally be here with you today.

John: I know. We've known each other for quite a while and it's like, why have we not been able to get together on this thing? But it just happens that way sometimes. Yeah, I've been really looking forward to talking to you, and my listeners probably know this, but you have so many areas of expertise and you've been doing this for so long. It's not just the pharma part, but the helping physician's part that I'm already going to put a bug in your ear about coming back on the podcast to cover another topic sometime in the future.

But we're going to really pick your brain today. First thing we need to do is just learn a little bit more about you. I have a separate intro that I did, but give us high points of your background and your career and what you're doing now.

Dr. Laura McKain: Absolutely. I'm a board-certified obstetrician gynecologist. I practiced in private practice for 12 years before transitioning over to pharma more than 13 years ago actually. I worked first in a couple of contract research organizations. And then I took a big leap and moved over to a startup biotech company on the west coast. Actually, I just recently retired from that company, after my drug got approved. I'm just tremendously passionate about my own career. Actually, I think I've had two careers, as well as my career transition from clinical medicine. And I am just incredibly passionate about assisting other physicians to make sure that they're really satisfied in their professional life.

John: That's fantastic. There has been such a demand over the last few years. And I don't know about you, I assume you've seen the same thing, but it was sort of something that people didn't ever talk about or didn't know about until now there are just physicians all over the place, including in the Facebook group looking for help and making the transition. That maybe doesn't bode well for the practice of medicine and all the hardships that are driving that, but it's definitely something that's growing.

Dr. Laura McKain: I absolutely agree. And I'm hoping that physicians can find perhaps other ways to find work-life balance without necessarily completely leaving clinical medicine.

John: Yeah. I think we talked a lot about making a transition, but always building it on that background in medicine, the knowledge of healthcare. Pharma is an awesome place to do that in my opinion. I've never worked in pharma, but we've interviewed MSLs and medical monitors and others, but really have had minimal exposure to the topic I hope to talk to you about today, which is clinical development or drug development. Tell me a little bit about what is that? I think we have our own understanding about it. It has to do with bringing drugs to market, but tell us what clinical development is as a division in pharma and what it does.

Dr. Laura McKain: Absolutely. Clinical development truly it's a blanket term that is used to define the entire process of bringing a new drug or a device to the market. It includes everything from the folks in the lab that are doing drug discovery, actually looking for molecules that might work, to the folks that are in product development, including the preclinical research, that may be done in microorganisms or in animals to early-stage clinical development where people are doing first in human studies to the later phases of clinical development, which involved the large clinical trials on humans that lead more directly to approval of a new drug. It's a broad range and there are actually a lot of different roles for physicians across clinical development.

John: Now, when I think about physicians in clinical development, I think about those maybe who went directly into academics, or they were doing research as part of their training. But what I think you and I tend to run into are physicians who have already been in practice for a while, they're thinking of leaving and now they want to transition back into some aspects. Maybe give us a little bit more of an idea of what jobs are in there that would be the most appropriate for physicians looking to go from clinical into that division of work.

Dr. Laura McKain: I think there are a lot of options and some of them may actually be things that physicians haven't even really thought about, particularly ones that still actually rely upon a lot of physician's clinical skills. One of them to start out with, and I'm going to start before a physician actually becomes employed by either a contract research organization or actual pharma company is to be a principal investigator in clinical trials. While you're still interacting with patients, it's very different than having a sick patient come to you for an answer.

When you're a clinical investigator, you're actually conducting industry sponsored clinical trials that are aimed toward getting a drug approved. And it is a fabulous role for somebody who feels like they have no experience in pharma or they feel like they don't have anything that they could put on a resume to get them their foot in the door with pharma. It's a great way for physicians to work on building that book of experience to make that transition.

And there are a lot of different settings for principal investigators that they can use their skills and to build this experience. For instance, they could work for actually large phase one units, which there are many across the country, where you're actually a full-time employee and you are enrolling patients, oftentimes, folks who are participating first in man trials, or they are doing studies like pharmacokinetic studies, to understand how new drugs are metabolized. Many of these types of facilities are actually inpatient facilities because they sometimes need to keep the patients for days in order to do the needed studies on them. They love employing emergency medicine physicians in this role, because again, it's a first demand drug. So, it's a great use of skills.

But there are also a lot of freestanding dedicated research sites that are either privately held or that a lot of physicians develop on their own to do later phase clinical trials. Think about like "Where did all of our trials that got us COVID 19 vaccines come from?" They were not done at academic institutions. Some of them definitely were done at academic institutions, but a lot of them were done in freestanding clinical research sites with principal investigators that were family practice docs or internists or from other specialties.

John: Okay. I'm going to dig into this a little bit, just to clarify for me and the listeners. Let me just give an example. I'm at a hospital where I was a CMO and we had an IRB and I sat on the IRB and we had these protocols come through. Most of those were external. And then we had people that were on staff at the hospital as part of that study, but would they be called a principal investigator or they would be an actual site from a study that was being produced either by the company directly or a CRO? How does that work?

Dr. Laura McKain: It really kind of depends upon how things are contracted, but you're right. Some physicians who are acting as a principal investigator, they may use their local institutional review board, the IRB, the committee that's required to review protocols to ensure that they are appropriate for patients. They may use a local IRB to conduct this research, but something that you may not know is that there are a lot of what we call central institutional review boards. IRB is that free standing units, not associated in any way with a hospital or an academic institution will use as their approval body for conducting this research.

Again, it really varies. There are some physicians that even act as a principal investigator within their own practice. They use a central IRB to get that approved. And they do it just part time. I've conducted many studies with lots of investigators who have that sort of setup. And then some of them love it so much they transitioned more and more away from actually seeing regular care patients and move toward doing clinical research on a full-time basis.

So, there are a lot of different settings where clinical research gets done. Academic institutions, hospitals, privately held investigational sites and then mom and pop organizations that physicians have started on their own.

John: All right. I hope I wasn't confusing anyone that's listening about the IRB. I think our IRB when we were involved with, let's say a national study and we happened to be at site, we were more just monitoring it. And there was a central IRB that approved the overall protocol, but we might have an oncologist on staff who was just enrolling patients into a study or urologist. I think he was more involved with procedures or in ortho doing certain implants. So, that did give them an exposure. And I didn't personally know anyone that used that and went into more of a full-time, but you're saying that's definitely a segue where you can say, "Look, I've been doing these studies, I've been monitoring patients. And so, why not do that full-time or something like that?"

Dr. Laura McKain: Absolutely. I've worked with lots of folks that have been principal investigators for industry sponsored research, and have used that as leverage to get a job with a pharma company. Absolutely. It's a great way because you already know how protocols work. You know so much that you would need to be able to know from the other side to be a medical monitor or what have you.

John: Would those people look at the firms, the companies that they were helping with their own study, or they look somewhere else? They say, "Look, I've got this experience in oncology" as the easiest way to use the company that they're already affiliated with, or could they just go to a CRO or some other company?

Dr. Laura McKain: Oncology is kind of a separate beast in terms of clinical development. Let's kind of just set that aside because a lot of oncologists, as part of their regular practice, do offer their patients the opportunity oftentimes last-ditch effort to enroll in study. So that's a little bit different. Let's talk about developing a new diabetes drug, or as I said, a vaccine. I did women's health studies. Those spokes are how they get their studies, how they find them really varies. Generally, some of them begin because they have relationships with contract research organizations, or they may work through what's called an SMO - Site Management Organization who helps them to find studies. And then there are some people who have just been doing it for so long that the companies come to them when they have a potential study. So, there are a variety of different ways here.

John: Okay. I guess that brings me to the question then, how would a physician other than being involved in something like that position themselves to move into pharma more directly? Are there things they can do beyond that that would help bolster their resume? What kind of suggestions would you have for that?

Dr. Laura McKain: You mean beyond being a principal investigator?

John: Yes. Or instead of if they haven't happened to be a principal investigator.

Dr. Laura McKain: I think there are a number of things that physicians can do to demonstrate that they have an understanding of how clinical trials work and what the work that they may be doing at a contract research organization or a pharma company. It definitely helps if you've got some clinical research experience but it could be something just as simple as being a real supporter of clinical research and being somebody who refers your patients to potential clinical trials. Getting great familiarity with clinical trials through that sort of pathway. So, physicians, let's say gastroenterologist. They have patients who have Crohn's disease which is very difficult to treat and they haven't found the right drug. They may help their patients find clinical trials to enroll in to offer them other potential options for successful treatment. That's definitely one way.

Other ways if you're a physician and you have absolutely no experience, would be to do a lot of reading, quite frankly. Really pay attention when new drugs are getting approved. Really look at sort of what the end product of new drug approvals are. And specifically, that's the prescribing information. Those long little leaflets that come that come with the drug. They're like 27 pages long. That's the end result of a clinical development project and really understanding what's in those documents and studying those sorts of documents and understanding the lingo and how they get to it. Looking at the published trials that come from new drug development, the pivotal phase three trials that are submitted as part of the new drug application.

Just getting that education and being well versed in it, being able to speak about it is great. If you're involved with drug reps at all, getting the word out that you're potentially an early adopter of a particular product and asking to speak with your regional medical science liaison to develop relationships with an MSL, to maybe get on a speaker's bureau for a drug. Actually, that was one of the ways that I got into the industry. I had been part of a number of speakers' bureaus for products that I really, really, really believed in. And that counted for me as being industry experienced, believe it or not.

I think another important thing is to potentially become a key opinion leader in your area. Choose some niche in your practice, something that's really of interest. Particularly, it's kind of nice if it's something where they're doing ongoing research. And become an expert. You should be the person that people refer patients to, have passion for it, really specialize in it.

And then last, but certainly not least what I always say is you should be networking. You should be networking. You should find people in the industry, find out what they do, do informational interviews with them, et cetera, et cetera. And those sorts of experiences can help you get your foot in the door with either a contract research organization or with a pharma company.

John: Does it seem like one works better than the other in terms of a CRO versus directly with a pharma company or does it just depend?

Dr. Laura McKain: I think there are certain specialties that can leap over to pharma much more easily. We already mentioned it, oncologists. If you're an oncologist out there listening, getting a job in pharma, it's as easy as falling off a log. I'm exaggerating, I know I'm exaggerating, but there are some specialties that are in tremendous domains. There are other specialties that I think have a much more difficult time. I've worked with a couple of folks like radiologists. I have really had a hard time trying to find an avenue for radiologists to get in. I'm not saying it's impossible because I know radiologists who've worked in clinical development, but it's probably a little bit more tough. Although even with that, there are angles for their careers.

We're kind of getting off on a tangent here, but there are companies that provide services to clinical trials, where they do very standardized assessments of certain diagnostic studies. A radiologist could go to work for one of these companies that does what we call "centralized readings" to make sure everyone's x-rays or what have you gets read in exactly the same way using exactly the same criteria. And I've worked with many radiologists who've gotten into that business. So, there are a lot of different avenues. There are lots of possibilities depending upon your specialty. Nothing's really off the table.

John: Very interesting. It can be overwhelming in a way. But you mentioned the KOL or key opinion leader and influencers and so forth. I mean, that's kind of the jargon they've heard from MSLs for example, and I'm sure there's a lot of other jargon. So, what about the titles themselves? What would be the jobs that a physician is looking at getting? Is it a medical director position? Is it a clinical scientist? If they're just trying to look around now, maybe look on Indeed or LinkedIn or somewhere just to look at a job description, what should they look up if they're looking for that kind of a job at a CRO or a pharma company?

Dr. Laura McKain: Sure. It does depend upon how much experience you have and where you might need to aim if you're looking to work for a contract research organization or for a pharma company.

I would say that generally speaking, a board-certified licensed physician who's looking to make this transition but maybe you don't have a lot of experience. I think a safe job title to pull up is an associate medical director position. And if you're entering it into LinkedIn, I put "Associate medical director clinical development", very specifically to look for those sorts of jobs. At a contract research organization, you're that type of role. You're really going to be serving as what we call a medical monitor.

It's actually not very common to find jobs titled as medical monitors. You can find them, but they're less common. Typically, the overarching term is an associate medical director or a medical director. But you would be performing that sort of role. You would be monitoring clinical trials, providing medical oversight to clinical trials in an associate medical director role in clinical development.

Going up the food chain from their medical director, senior medical director, executive medical director, some companies do or do not have this would lead them into a VP role. And then ultimately to a chief medical officer role. Obviously, those are all demanding experiences, but associate medical director is a good place to start.

For some people, even that may be kind of too high to aim. And another role that you can look for is a role as what's called a clinical scientist. And you can find those at pharma companies and also some contract research organizations. A clinical scientist is kind of the right hand to the medical monitor on a clinical trial. They still need to have a lot of clinical experience. They need to be very familiar and know a lot clinically to be able to review data.

They will play supportive roles to medical monitors, particularly on really high-volume studies. Again, I keep going back to our recent example of, "How did we get these COVID vaccines?" I guarantee there was like an army of clinical scientists out there that were helping to monitor the data, and to summarize it for the applications which got us emergency use authorization.

But clinical scientist is a great entry role. You'll find some physicians in that role, you'll find potentially foreign ex-US trained physicians in that role, but you'll also find PharmDs and even PhDs in that role. But it can be a potential place to get your foot in the door.

And then let's talk about the person who perhaps graduated medical school, but didn't do a residency or somebody who didn't complete a residency, or again, I'll even go back to somebody who graduated or trained outside of the US who's never been licensed here.

You talk enough about this, or we don't talk enough about that group of people, but there are roles in clinical development for those folks also. And I have worked with many people with the background that I've just described who serve as a role as a clinical research associate. And they often work for contract research organizations and they are fully trained on clinical trial protocols. And they actually go to the sites that are conducting the research. I'm really simplifying this, but they ensure that the data has integrity, that it's not fraudulent data, that it's been entered into the database correctly, that the site has conducted the study according to the protocol, with like I said, great integrity and they reported everything that they need to report.

Those clinical research associate roles are extraordinarily important. They definitely require a great medical background. I often see nurses in that role, other paramedical people in that role, but I've also, like I said, I've seen foreign trained MDs in that role. And it can be a foot in the door for pharma.

I built a drug safety team at one of the companies that I worked at. And I actually promoted a couple of people who had served as CRA's clinical research associates to drug safety physicians because they had all the medical know-how and they knew about clinical trials and they were great people to promote up to a more traditional physician role. So, there are lots of opportunities out there.

John: Oh, that's very helpful. I don't want to digress too much, but you mentioned this person, just this last bit here, that they were promoted into a safety role. This is just because in my mind, I'm trying to keep the parts of a pharma in my head and I tend to break them down into sections. So, I kind of think of the safety as standing by itself. It's not really part of clinical development. I don't think it's part of medical affairs. It doesn't kind of straddle all those things because it's maintaining safety.

Dr. Laura McKain: It does. Think about the role that safety plays in clinical development. When a company is developing a drug, there are two things that they are trying to establish. They're trying to establish the efficacy of the drug and also the safety of the drug. If the drug isn't safe, it doesn't matter if it's effective or not. You can't approve it. The pharmacovigilance department, the drug safety folks played an enormous role in clinical development.

And in fact, the clinical development people work very closely with the safety folks. And there is a ton of communication that goes on between the two groups. They review and analyze data together. Although the clinical development people are responsible for collecting the data, the pharmacovigilance people are really important in terms of meeting the regulatory requirements during development, but also, they play a huge role in the development of the actual applications when they go in. There is a ton of overlap.

And I'll tell you, John, that folks who work at contract research organizations, their positions that they get as a medical director are oftentimes really hybrid positions where they are responsible for medical monitoring, but they also can play a huge role in safety and they get very well versed in the regulatory requirements about both of those.

Of course, it's my experience, but I think contract research organizations are an amazing learning field for physicians who want to get into industry because you really get a broad view of things and you get to work with a bunch of different pharma companies to see how things are done differently at different companies. And it makes it much easier I believe to go onto pharma from there.

John: That is very helpful because we need to know how to get our first job. That's the hardest part I think from what I understand. Once you're in, then you can look around, you can continue to grow and learn and maybe shift. I just want to summarize things here though. I want to go back to the beginning. I'm in a position where

I'm thinking about doing something like this, but at the beginning, as you said, do your research, learn as much as you can, network. And I would assume also in some cases like physicians you've helped, get a coach, maybe that can help navigate this with you, if necessary, because it can get very confusing. Are you still doing coaching for physicians at this time?

Dr. Laura McKain: Absolutely, I do. I do work with individual physicians. And I'll be honest, I've really sort of narrowed my focus. I was kind of taking all commerce for a while, but I really have honed in on folks that are more interested in moving into pharma. I work with them to help them really mine their own background, their own experience to find those transferable skills that make them qualified for pharma. But I also can coach them on finding opportunities to build that runway to make the leap over.

John: All right. I do have to put the plug in now. It's at www.mckainconsulting.com.

Dr. Laura McKain: Yes. And check the show notes to make sure you get my last name spelled because it's a tricky one.

John: Right, right. So, that's one way you're helping people. Now, you're also helping them through the Facebook group so we have to spend a few minutes talking about that. Give us the entire history of the Facebook group in two seconds. No, I'm kidding. Just give us an overview of what's going on there.

Dr. Laura McKain: I established it five years ago, really just because of my own passion around this amazing second career that I've had. I really love my clinical career but I just feel like I've had this amazing second career I've gotten to. I've had two drugs that have gotten approved. I've literally traveled the world. I've gone to see how medicine is practiced all over the world. It's really been phenomenal. I just feel really privileged to have been able to do this. And after I got out of clinical medicine, I had lots of physicians, friends, and whatnot coming to me, "How would you do? How would you do it? How would you do it?" And I started the group to try to answer that question. And it has grown extraordinarily organically.

John, you've been an absolutely important administrator for the group for many years that have really helped us to truly grow organically. I mean, the group has sort of grown on its own. I will say. There has not been a lot of effort that's gone towards building it. We're up to almost 17,000 members at this point. We're fortunate that we've got a number of different experts in a variety of nonclinical settings that are really offering expertise to the group.

And then most recently, I made some changes in the group. And now because it's becoming more work to administer the group, we have a number of awesome sponsors for the group. John, you're one of our platinum sponsors for the group because of all of the contributions that you've made. But there have been a couple of individuals and one company that have stepped up to provide a little bit of financial support to kind of keep the thing moving and rolling.

But it's a great place for physicians to come to get exposed to people that are doing a variety of different things, non-clinically, as well as getting advice about navigating a transition. I think more and more our group is also helping to assist physicians who are just really feeling burnt out and maybe transitioning out of medicine isn't the right thing. But I think some of them are all saying they are finding appropriate connections within the group. "Maybe I just need to change my clinical practice and stay". So, I think we're beginning to kind of service that group also.

John: Well, that's good. That's awesome. And you're right. A lot of it is basically just people that are unhappy and they'd need support and they're getting encouragement with all physicians, 100% physicians, obviously. Yeah, I like all the new changes that you've made in the last several months and I think there are more coming. But it's a great place to go if you just don't know where to go, who to ask for advice on how to move into a nonclinical career or something like direct patient primary care or concierge med. All these things that are alternatives to the traditional practice that may be causing your brain to fry physically.

Dr. Laura McKain: A lot of the stressors seem to come from some sort of corporate medicine right now. People really do need to know that there are alternatives there and for anybody out there who's listening that feels miserable and trapped, you have to know that you may feel like you have no options, but I promise you, you have a thousand different options. It just takes some courage to find the thing that'll work for you. It may be something nonclinical, but you know what? I think there is also a great chance that there are answers if you want to stay in clinical medicine. Probably not what you expected me to say today, John.

John: No, no. I have guests on frequently that it's like if you can figure out a way to practice that isn't corporate medicine, because it's just killing you then by all means, do it. I certainly want to have a doctor for myself.

Dr. Laura McKain: Oh, yeah. And there are maybe people that can do things part time. Like I said there are a lot of people who have a clinical practice, but they also act as a principal investigator and that variety in their life makes things more doable for them. There's a lot of different ways to find happiness professionally. And I encourage everyone to do it. Don't wait. This is not a dress rehearsal.

John: Absolutely. I'll put a link to the Facebook group, but if you look up "Physician Nonclinical Careers" or "Nonclinical Careers", you'll find the Facebook group. I would encourage if you're not already a member to join there. There is a little vetting. You have to answer some questions, but if you're a physician, you can join. Is there anything else I'm missing in terms of places we should look for you? I think you're on LinkedIn, for sure.

Dr. Laura McKain: I think that's plenty. I'm in the Facebook group every day, now that I'm retired. Of course, once I've retired, I've got little quotation marks. I'm still doing pharma consulting and some other things, but I'm really doing it on my terms now. But the Facebook group definitely is a place to find me and mckainconsulting.com is another place.

John: All right. Well, it looks like we're about at the end here. Any last bits of advice for the listeners today?

Dr. Laura McKain: The last piece I would say is that if you're really seriously considering transition, I accomplished my transition solo and I don't recommend that. I think that now there are so many more resources and places to go for help. Rather than groping your way in the dark, reach out for help. It's worth it. I swear to you, I'm not trying to sell coaching services. I just hate to see people struggle. There are opportunities for people to get real professional help that can make the process much more efficient.

John: Very good words of wisdom there, reach out for help. And it goes all the way back at the beginning, when you were talking about networking and talking to others and learning. So, that's great. All right, Laura, thank you very much for joining us today. I'm definitely going to hold you to come back again and talk about some other things. So, with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Laura McKain: Bye John. Thank you.

John: You're welcome. Bye-bye.

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Presentation by Dr. Maria Abunto – 352

Today's episode presents an excerpt from Dr. Maria Abunto's masterclass on securing your first nonclinical MSL job from the 2023 Nonclinical Career Summit.

Dr. Maria Abunto, a senior manager of medical science liaisons (MSLs) at Exact Sciences, shares her journey and insights into the MSL role. Dr. Abunto's insights focus on relationship-building, continuous learning, and strategic networking. Whether you are considering a career change or seeking to understand the MSL role better, this post offers valuable guidance and inspiration.

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Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.” If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat. Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

From Academia to Industry: Dr. Maria Abunto's Journey

Dr. Maria Abunto transitioned from academia to industry, bringing experience from the NIH, Stryker, and now Exact Sciences. Her journey began with a master's degree in public health, where she developed a passion for public service. Driven to make a broader impact, she ventured into the world of medical science liaisons (MSLs).

Dr. Abunto shares her personal story, highlighting the importance of investing in oneself and continuously seeking opportunities to learn and grow. Her transition underscores the value of networking and finding mentors who can guide and support one's career path.

The MSL Role: Responsibilities and Rewards

The MSL role established over 50 years ago is vital in the biopharma industry. MSLs are responsible for building relationships with key opinion leaders (KOLs) and educating them on the science and advancements in treatment related to a company's product. This communication-focused role requires a strong scientific background, typically a doctorate, and excellent interpersonal skills.

Dr. Abunto explains that MSLs work remotely, managing their schedules and traveling to meet with KOLs. The role offers significant rewards, including high compensation, flexible work arrangements, and the opportunity to make a meaningful impact in healthcare.

Finding Your First Nonclinical MSL Job: Tips and Strategies

Breaking into the MSL role can be challenging but achievable with the right preparation and strategy. Dr. Abunto advises aspiring MSLs to focus on matching their skills and experiences with specific therapeutic areas and companies.

Networking is crucial. Attending industry conferences, joining professional organizations like the MSL Society, and connecting with key MSL leaders can open doors to opportunities. Additionally, enrolling in relevant training programs can enhance one's qualifications. Dr. Abunto also emphasizes the importance of building quality professional contacts and researching target companies to stand out in the competitive MSL job market.

Summary

To learn more you should explore the MSL Society website, which offers information and training opportunities for aspiring Medical Science Liaisons. To connect with Maria check out her profile on LinkedIn, where she is likely active and engaging with the medical and scientific community. For detailed presentations and insights from the 2023 Nonclinical Careers Summit, including Dr. Abunto's complete talk, visit the 2023 Summit’s Official Page.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

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Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Maria Abunto's LinkedIn Page
• Why You Should Celebrate International MSL Day -135
• Medical Science Liaison Is Still a Fantastic Pharma Job – 261
• Complete the Journey to Your First Fabulous MSL Job – 277
• MSL Society Website
• Purchase the Complete 12-Lecture Package from the 2023 Nonclinical Career Summit
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 352

Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job

- Interview with Dr. Maria Abunto

John: Dr. Maria Abunto is the senior manager of medical science liaisons at ExactSciences, a molecular diagnostics company specializing in the detection of early-stage cancers. Before she worked there, she was global medical science liaison for Stryker. And she previously worked as an epidemiologist and investigator for the NIH and as a medical scientific expert on the IRB at a large children's hospital. She holds a master's degree in public health from the University of Pittsburgh and she completed a medical degree at the University of the East in Manila, Philippines. All right.

Today's podcast episode is the first half of her presentation from the 2023 Non-Clinical Career Summit in which she describes the MSL biopharma role, why it is a popular non-clinical career, and how to land your first MSL job. So let's jump in as she describes how she landed her first role as an MSL.

Dr. Maria Bunto: I'm Maria Bunto and I'll give a talk about coming from academia to industry or going from the ivory tower to the dark side. So the purpose of my presentation is to educate you on what is a medical science liaison or MSL. And if there's one thing I'd like for you to remember about being an MSL, it's not really bad at all. In fact, it's quite the opposite. It's one of the best jobs in the world and I'm fortunate to have transitioned to a non-clinical career that I love. And hopefully my talk will resonate with some of you.

So this is my disclaimer and the views and opinions are my own and do not reflect that of exact sciences, my employer, and I have no financial relationships to disclose.

So here's an outline of what I'll be talking about today. I'll start with a background about myself and my journey of how I transitioned. Then I'll talk about the MSL role, who MSLs are, and what compensation looks like, and then highlight the pros and cons of being an MSL. Then I'll take a deeper dive into how to become an MSL and briefly talk about the different career paths. I'll provide some information about the MSL society, their training and other resources.

So I'm just gonna go ahead and go into my why. This is my story and I'd like to spend just a few minutes and take you through my journey. Everyone has their unique experiences. So I think it's really important to connect with all of you, the audience out there who's interested and just figuring out what your why is. and why you want to transition. So as a physician, I have had previous experiences as a medical director, supervising operations for a busy family medicine practice. And during that time, I saw countless health disparities and underserved populations without any support or insurance. And so chronic disease is being passed down from generation to generation. And it's just one day that I just had an epiphany at a health fair and we were conducting where I realized I didn't wanna do this anymore, but rather just really focusing on understanding really what's going on here and what's happening upstream in a lot of these marginalized populations and how can we prevent that domino effect downstream?

So I always knew that I wanted to be more than just a medical director. I really wanted to affect populations on a greater level and really make that difference on even a more broader impact. while continuing to develop myself professionally. So identified public health problems, but I also realized the solution really starts with me. So the decision, this became my why. But how I was going to do this was the big question is how was I going to reinvent myself? So I knew my strengths were in public service and building connections and relationships. But I also realized during the soul searching that in order to do this, I needed to up my game and invest in myself. So my journey really begins in 2016 when I went back to graduate school and obtained my master in public health at the University of Pittsburgh. So this was a really great decision and wise investment because I needed to focus and reinvent myself. So I really worked hard to increase my knowledge and skillset, and I discovered that I absolutely loved learning as an adult student, but I didn't know what I would be doing after graduation, but I kept going and I didn't stop and I kept looking for opportunities.

It's in academia where I found an opportunity to expand my network. build my meaningful connections and relationships. So at the bottom right of the corner of the screen here, I'm pictured at graduation with my program director and long time mentor, Dr. David Feingold and the former Dean of Public Health, Dr. Donald Burke. And like I mentioned, I knew my strengths were not only in relationship building, but in public service. So at the top right is where I immersed myself in the Center for Health Equity Initiatives, such as Take the Health Professional to the People Day. So that's where I would conduct blood pressure screenings at barbershops and salons and inner cities around Pittsburgh. And you see, after all these years, I'm still volunteering in a community and giving back. It's been about a decade now. And these are opportunities like creating these long-term relationships with mentors. I also had an awesome mentor during grad school, who after graduation, I joined him at his lab at the National Institutes of Health and Population Sciences is at the NIH. And that's me pictured there on the left-hand corner. at the NIH Clinical Center in Bethesda, Maryland. That's really how I got into research because not only my connections, but my public health experience.

So it was at the NIH where I said, I mentioned that I conducted colorectal cancer research and that I became an epidemiologist there, attended all conferences and network like crazy. And I think that's where in 2017, I joined the MSL Society and became really active. And I attended the three-day live MSL communication and presentation skills training. There I learned as much as I could about being an MSL because I didn't really know I've heard about it, but it was really when I learned more about it that it appealed to me. And it was at the MSL Society Women's Conference in 2018 where I met a physician MSL. She introduced me to her career coach. And I immediately consulted that coach. So I wanted to realize that coach was also a physician. I wanted to really understand, is this a good fit for me? How hard is it to break into the role? She really helped me after 10 months. I landed my first job in industry. It was because of a connection she had, another physician who was hiring at a medical device company. And I know that after working there my first week, I just knew that I loved it and it was such a good fit. So in a nutshell, That was my career path and I'd have to say, I continue to solidify these relationships in the roles with MSLs and MSL leaders who continuously inspire me.

So now let's talk about the MSL role. The MSL was first established in 1967 by the Upjohn company and has existed for more than 50 years. And it continues to evolve in line with the changing diseases, treatment landscapes and healthcare trends. So MSLs were created in response to the need for a professionally trained staff to build rapport with influential physicians known in the pharma industry as key opinion leaders or KOLs and then thought leaders in various therapeutic areas of research. So MSLs became a part of medical affairs department where their activities revolve around building relationships with KOLs, but it's important to note that in the US the MSL is not a commercial role. or a promotional one. It's also not a science role, but rather a communication role through science, where discussions revolve around the research and the data behind the drug or product. So in the past, an advanced clinical degree was not required. However, in the late 1980s and 90s, a number of companies began to require MSLs to hold a doctorate degree, such as an MD, PharmD, or PhD, and now even Doctorate of Nursing, or DNP. As the MSL role grew over the years, the doctorate degrees became the new standard. Many companies require these credentials because MSLs are often viewed as more credible and it helps really establish those peer-to-peer relationships with doctors who you will be working with. And it's a growing field, which is a good sign. It's growing at a rate of about 10% a year with at least one out of four MSLs being hired without previous MSL experience. So over the years, companies have used various titles for the role and Medical Science Liaison or MSL is not the only name, it is called, for example, Pfizer calls MSL's field medical directors or FMDs and Amgen refers to them as regional leaders. So I'd also like to point out that obtaining a master degree may not likely make you a better applicant unless that degree really strengthens your match to the specific MSL role. But we have seen, and also on our team, we've had people that had master degrees and go on to also get a PhD while they're working for an industry company. So what is the purpose of the MSO role? The primary purpose is to be a scientific or disease state expert in the therapeutic area of the company product or pipeline.

So what is an MSL? Well, an MSL is one who holds a clinical degree in the life sciences with extensive experience in clinical medicine and or research. A doctor degree is preferred, but I've seen, as I mentioned, MSLs with master degree break into the role. There are more PhDs and PharmDs or MDs. And lately we've seen a lot of DERS practitioners and also physician assistants transitioning to become MSLs. So an MSL is employed by a pharma, biotech or medical device company. And He or she is a subject matter expert in a particular therapeutic area, such as oncology, hematology, and immunology. Now oncology and immunology, they lead the way with growth rates of about 31% and 28% respectively. And MSL's primary function is to educate on the science and advances in the treatment of the drug or product in a fair and balanced manner.

So it's a remote job where one works from home, one has a home office, and arranges meetings with KOLs or healthcare providers, either in person or virtually. So this diagram is event diagram and really illustrates what the role of the MSL encompasses. So the circle on the left contains all of the people with the science degrees, which is the PharmD, MD, PhDs. And these are people like yourself who have the proven science skills and have spent hours and hours conducting research or practicing science. Now the circle on the right This contains the people with communication relationship driven skills. So these are the soft skills. And that includes emotional intelligence and self-awareness. The circle on the left is necessary but not sufficient to land an MSL role. However, the circle on the right is full of people you want to be with, but is no good without the technical science skills found on the left. The silver middle, the sliver in the middle is where the two circles intersect and that's why the MSL talent is so hard to come by. However, as mastering the science and having degree is found in every candidate, what's often overlooked are the soft skills and the communication skills, as I mentioned, which actually may even be more important here. So MSLs are excellent communicators and this quality is really what is what makes one stand out. It's one thing to know the science and it's quite another to communicate the science. And if you think of the communication rolled through science, that's what makes an awesome MSL.

What are some of the responsibilities of an MSL? The primary responsibility is to establish and maintain relationships with KOLs who are influential doctors or healthcare providers. So since MSLs are subject matter experts of the science behind the products, engagements with KOLs involve discussions about the disease state and can involve education through presentations. An MSL first starts by KOL mapping in their territory and identifying who the key influencers are. and who are important players to get in front of as they begin strategizing and building relationships. A typical day involves proactively reaching out to a list of KOLs, and the MSL will introduce himself or herself through an email or a phone call. And then introductions can also happen at conferences or through your commercial sales force. The goal is to be able to schedule a one-on-one meeting, engage in conversation, and begin to build those relationships. And then from these conversations, may find that the KOL is interested in conducting a clinical trial that aligns with the pharma company or the KOL may request more education on the pivotal study about a company product recently launched. And whatever the outcome, collecting insights are important information to bring back to the company because insights are considered currency to the overall business, especially competitive intelligence insights. And sometimes these meetings are in-person and require travel. And so travel days are an average about two to three days per week. and are structured around the KOL schedule. But you can also modify your schedule, really makes sense to you. If you think according to the metrics of the company or of your team, if you can actually meet those metrics in two to three meetings, half virtual, half in person, minimal travel, that can be accomplished too. So it's really about you being the CEO or you managing and being the manager of your territory.

So here's a survey that was conducted by the MSL Society in 2020 and showing the many different activities that MSLs participate in and can be found on the website, which is free for all members. And also, I think there's also free resources for non-members. And as you can see, majority of the MSLs, over 98%, they manage KOL relationships. And approximately 90% of MSL surveyed said that they attend medical conferences and also provide education through scientific presentations. MSLs focus on meetings with those who are experts and thought leaders because they are influencing how others practice or conduct research using the product or the drug treatment. And an MSL would do that through a peer-to-peer scientific exchange. And the scientific exchange has two aspects to it. The first aspect of the role is a therapeutic area subject matter expert. So disease state awareness and the knowledge of the competitive landscape and the company specific products and pipeline. The second aspect is bringing value that the KOL wants. And sometimes they don't need the MSL scientific acumen. So sometimes what they want are opportunities. For instance, opportunities like a grant for an investigator led study or clinical trial. And sometimes KOLs are not looking for that scientific information, but looking to the MSL to be that conduit to the company's resources to help their career or institutions like being on an advisory board or speaker on podium or an author of a publication. So as an MSL, you will have to know the KOL very well to find out what it is that you can bring value to them. Is it the scientific presentations or is it the career opportunities? And the key is to meet the KOLs where they're at. So now let's shift a little bit and talk about who MSLs are and what compensation looks like. I think this is a really nice set of slides from the MSL Society data that shows an infograph of the makeup of the MSL surveyed by the MSL Society in 2020. 2023 results are very similar. So they surveyed over 2000 MSL professionals and the results in the US showed there was an overwhelming number of women MSLs compared to men, more than half were women and about 41% were men. 31% of MSLs work in the oncology space while 15% of MSLs work in Majority of MSL surveyed were white who had a PhD degree at 39%, followed by 27% for PharmDs. So only 8% of MSLs had a medical degree. The top three places where MSLs work are in large, medium, and small pharma or biotech companies. And then the survey also breaks it down by years of experience.

So MSL-based salaries can vary significantly depending on the therapeutic area, geographic region, years of experience. educational background, and then size of the company, as well as a company's product and pipeline life cycle. So this is a comparison of the average base salary of MSLs from around the globe. The MSL Society hired an external research firm to collect and analyze the data from over 2000 participants from 60 countries around the world. So this is 2022 data. And keep in mind that the MSL role may be defined differently around the world. They may take on other responsibilities similar to commercial sales or marketing. So from those that participated in the 2021 salary survey, the majority of managers or directors of MSLs based in the US use the report as their primary salary benchmark data. I know we use this for our, not only just the MSL society data, but other data that we use as benchmark for our hire for this year. And so as you can see, there is a wide range of salaries and the MSL pay trends on the higher side in the US and then it increases annually, about 3%.

This is a snapshot of the 2022 average base salary of MSLs in the US according to years of experience. And as you can see on the left, the average starting salary is about 160,000. That's not including benefits, which makes it a very attractive compensation, even with less than one year of experience. The salary increases about 3% every year, as I mentioned. However, this is underestimating how much MSLs make because it doesn't include the long-term benefits which could be another 30 to $50,000. For example, some of those benefits are health insurance, 401k, stock options, a company car, and an expense account, which are added on top of your base salary. Now on the right is the average starting salary for an MSL manager or director. It usually starts above $200,000, but varies according to the years of experience. So if you see though that the difference here from managers compared to the MSL's salary is that it varies and it doesn't necessarily mean a trend up as one gains more experience. The years of experience of being a manager or director doesn't always translate to higher pay. And sometimes they do take a pay cut to move up into a company.

So when I was doing my research and deciding on whether the MSL job was right for me, I thought it was important to write down the pros and cons of being an MSL. And I... And I suggest you do the same transitioning, if you're transitioning from clinical to non-clinical. So please note that this is not a comprehensive list and it's very subjective. So for the pros, I showed on the previous slide that MSLs in the US are well compensated with a high base salary. Remote work is a plus, especially during the pandemic when I started. But working from home may not be suitable for some people. Having a flexible schedule includes making your own work schedule, arranging your own meetings and then. healthcare providers, meetings, as well as booking work travel. And there is at least 50% within your region or territory. And travel may be a deal breaker for some, but for me, it suits my lifestyle. And also there are great benefits that I explained. Some of the cons. So for industry is highly regulated and there is a lot of compliance and rules to follow. There is some loss of autonomy there. It's a transition from being a discoverer, for instance, like in academia, to being a knower. You know, you will not have a lot of patient interaction if you were a clinician and moving into becoming an MSL. And will certainly not be a scientist, but rather more of a communicator of science. And then you're going to be part of a larger team that is metrics driven and performance driven. So for example, you're measured on the number of healthcare provider. Outreach and interactions, insights and presentations, those are part of your metrics. Access to healthcare providers and scheduling face-to-face meetings. They were very difficult during the pandemic. But then we made it work through a hybrid kind of meetings where we had virtual and also in-person once they started opening up to vendors and to industry. So it's about really finding creative ways of gaining access.

The MSL role is very competitive. You will be competing against experienced MSLs for every single role you apply for. Breaking in is not easy, but it's not impossible. And most companies will require having MSL experience. It does take a lot of hard work and the right match to find that ideal job. And now I just, I'm going to pause here for a minute and just talk about one thing that I did not touch on. And that is that negative impression or that bias about working in industry. And you know, I came from academia came from practice as well. And I specifically titled my talk, going from academia to the dark side to illustrate this bias. But as someone who has worked on both sides, I believe education and having an open mind are key in tackling these biases and assumptions when considering transitioning to industry. And this section is going to be talking about how to become an MSL. I can be whole another presentation and discussion, but I'll just take a few minutes to talk about some steps and strategies that has worked for me and others. And the bottom line is preparation is key.

So remember that there are no general MSL roles. There are all disease state or therapeutic area focus. The first step is to really identify your therapeutic area or TA. For example, you could be conducting research in Alzheimer's and your disease state focuses neurology or neuroscience. or if you are conducting sickle cell anemia research, your TA will be hematology. If you want to exponentially increase your chances of breaking into your first MSL role, I'd say the three most important things are really to match, match. Match and find those target companies, target roles, and only apply to those once you have done your research and preparation. Next, research the role in the company you'd like to work for. I'd say do that now, follow the company on social media or even on Twitter, on LinkedIn, know everything you can about the company because when it does come time to interview, what I did is I told the company, I said, I've been following you for years, which is, it's a good sign that you actually are very knowledgeable about them. It also allows you more opportunities that help you get in front of people as you network and then get your foot in the door. There are also, for example, internships or fellowships offered because these can count as experience. translatable experience. And so too, you wanna look at and see if there's companies that have internships and apply for those opportunities. Attend industry-wide conferences and events and really build your network. Let them know you, your face and really introduce yourself and be proactive. A focus on quality professional contacts that are directly related to the MSL community. and identify key MSL leaders in medical affairs at companies that are of interest to you. So this is the most effective and easiest way to connect with a hiring manager and other key decision-makers. So the more relevant connections you make, the greater chance you will be successful in breaking in. So become an active member of MSL relevant groups, like the MSL Society, and there's others out there, cheeky scientists. This will allow you to really increase the network your circle of influence with those MSLs in industry, but also in the companies that you are interested in. It's really challenging to achieve on your own your circle of influence without the help of your network. So I highly encourage you to expand your reach and get out of your comfort zone and connect with others.

It's also really challenging to achieve becoming an MSL on your own without proper preparation and guidance. You will need to really stand apart from the competition. So there's also MSL trainings offered for aspiring MSLs, especially if you have no MSL experience. That's a great way to upscale, build your skills. If you lack industry experience or research experience, you know, we wanna keep pace with the changing demands of the profession. And if you need to enroll in online courses to learn about clinical trials or regulatory compliance, I'll provide a list of resources too with websites at the end of this talk.

John: Physicians are uniquely positioned to enter the biopharma industry. They obviously use the products produced by biopharma and are very comfortable discussing the research, development, and deployment of new pharmaceuticals, diagnostic tests, and medical devices. In today's presentation, Maria provided a nice review of the pros and cons of the MSL job, the likely salary to expect, and sound advice to help you transition into the role. If you'd like to hear the rest of our presentation and the other 11 topics presented at the 2023 Non-Clinical Careers Summit, you can check that out at nonc forward slash two zero two three summit. That's nonc forward slash twenty three summit. That's all one word, no hyphens.

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The post Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Presentation by Dr. Nerissa Kreher – 349

In today's episode, we present an excerpt from Dr. Nerissa Kreher's masterclass on securing the best biopharma positions from the 2023 Nonclinical Career Summit.

Dr. Nerissa Kreher is a pediatric endocrinologist and the Chief Medical Officer at a biotech company.  She received her medical degree from East Carolina University. She then completed a pediatric residency and pediatric endocrinology fellowship at Indiana University School of Medicine.

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We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast. The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

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Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.” If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat. Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

Unveiling New Horizons: Career Transitions in the Biopharma Industry

Dr. Kreher's journey inspires physicians to contemplate career transitions beyond traditional clinical practice. With over 17 years of experience in the biopharma industry, she offers invaluable insights into the diverse pathways available to medical professionals seeking new challenges and opportunities.

Through her narrative, Dr. Kreher illuminates how to leverage clinical expertise in roles ranging from clinical development to patient safety and medical affairs.

Decoding the Biopharma Realm: Contrasts and Considerations

Nerissa highlights the contrasting dynamics between clinical practice and the biopharma industry. She explores the differing hierarchies, teamwork dynamics, and work flexibility, offering her insights for physicians contemplating a career transition to the pharma industry.

These insights will help listeners prepare for their transition from a frustrated clinician to a fulfilling biopharma career.

Summary

Dr. Nerissa Kreher describes how to navigate from clinical medicine to the biopharma industry effectively. Gain insights into diverse career pathways beyond traditional clinical practice, from clinical development to patient safety and medical affairs. Explore new horizons with invaluable guidance from Dr. Kreher. 

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Nerissa Kreher's Website [IndustryMDCoach]
• Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311
• Research and Development in Nonclinical Pharma Careers
• Medical Science Liaison Is Still a Fantastic Pharma Job – 261
• Highlight These 5 Experiences to Land Your First Pharma Job – 242
• How Does a Physician Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job? – 214
• Use These Simple Tactics to Land a Fantastic First Pharma Job – 209
• How to Find a Job in Pharma That You Love – 184
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 349

The Best Biopharma Positions For Motivated Practicing Physicians

- Lecture by Dr. Nerissa Kreher

Dr. Nerissa Kreher: I'm really excited to be here, John and Tom, thank you so much for this amazing forum. I've enjoyed participating over the last couple of nights and looking forward to tomorrow night as well. Thanks for the opportunity. I'll be speaking today about career opportunities for physicians in the biopharma industry. And I'll get to a little bit of lingo in just a second.

A little bit of background on me. I have a business called The Pharma IndustryMDCoach, and I help physicians explore and ultimately find a fulfilling career in the biopharma industry and use a step-by-step guide of taking you through the process of a resume, LinkedIn, interviewing, negotiating.

But in addition, I'm a certified life coach. And so I also apply the principles of life coaching to help people dispel imposter phenomenon, lack of confidence, self-doubt. And I'll raise some of those things throughout our conversation tonight.

John asked us to start by giving a little bit of our background. I thought it would be fun to share my story because people often ask, "How did I end up transitioning?" And I have to tell you that it was a bit fortuitous actually, but I'm very grateful that it happened. And I'm 17 years now in the biotech industry.

Of course, medical school, residency, fellowship, I'm a pediatric endocrinologist by training. I got married during medical school, had kids during residency and fellowship. And my husband, he was a year behind me, med-peds, and had practiced, but then decided he wanted to go back and do a sports medicine fellowship. We found ourselves in the situation of this is a match for sports medicine, and I was looking for a real job. And so, we ended up looking in three different cities, obviously ones with large academic centers where I could have a pediatric endocrine job.

I was on a clinical research path. I got my master's in clinical research during my fellowship and really enjoyed seeing my clinical research patients, but I never really enjoyed being in clinic day in and day out. I really was on that clinical research track and that's where my passion was.

Through this, I thought I had a job waiting for me at Mass General Hospital in clinical research. When my husband matched in sports medicine there, I called the program director, division director, and the first words out of her mouth were, "Oh no." That obviously was a bit stressful. They offered me a job, ultimately a job seeing patients 80% of the time.

I'm very grateful that I at least knew that's really not what I wanted and didn't just take the job out of feeling helpless and hopeless. I interviewed around the East Coast as far as Rhode Island and Dartmouth, New Hampshire, still didn't find what I was looking for. And a sales representative from Serono asked if I would give her my resume so she could share it at her company. And some of you may know or not, Serono has a recombinant human growth hormone, which obviously is a pedendo I'm very familiar with.

That landed me my first role in the biotech industry as the medical director in medical affairs. And I truly loved it from day one. I think it really pulled from that forever learner phenotype that many physicians have. I was exposed to so many new things, but also I was an expert in pediatric endocrinology. And so I was able to teach people, but I was also learning from others at the same time.

I'm now 17 years in, I've worked at seven different companies, medical affairs, as well as clinical development. I'm in my third chief medical officer role. I've had the opportunity of doing two public offerings, taking private companies public, and I serve on the board of director of a public biotech company as well.

COVID hit us, I felt like very, very dire straits in the early parts of COVID. I couldn't go and do a shift in an ER. And so my way of helping was to try to start helping some of my colleagues that needed to transition. And that's where the IndustryMDCoach was born from. So, that's my story. You can probably tell I have a lot of energy about our industry and really enjoy helping people understand it. I look forward to any questions at the end of the talk.

I like to compare and contrast a little bit between clinical and the biotech and pharma industry. Before I do that, I will use biotech and pharma and biopharma very interchangeably. It used to be that biotech technically meant something that we made in cells. For example, recombinant human growth hormone is manufactured in live cells. And pharma meant things that are synthetically made.

It's a big mishmash now. So many, many companies are biopharma companies because they do both. Some people actually now sort of refer to pharma as bigger companies and biotech as smaller companies. I think biopharma encapsules our whole industry. But if I use one or the other, I probably really mean biopharma.

In the clinical setting, and I fully admit there are some generalities here, but the physician is pretty high on the totem pole from a decision-making standpoint. I recognize insurance, admin, things also have an impact on that decision-making, but they are relatively high on the totem pole.

In the biotech and pharma industry, the physician may not be the ultimate decision-maker. Even as the chief medical officer, meaning I'm like the top medical officer at the company, I'm very rarely making decisions in a vacuum. I have my CEO, I have my chief operating officer, my chief financial officer. And so, decisions are being made in cross-functional teams all the time. That's one big difference that I think a physician really has to think about as they consider, "Is biotech and pharma the right thing for me?"

Obviously, clinical individual patient care, biopharma, we're caring for groups of patients. Now I actually don't even have an active medical license anymore. So I'm not caring for them, meaning making medical decisions for them, but I'm doing things that impact their medical journey overall. And I work in the rare disease space and I'm also understanding that medical journey and learning from patients. I do have the opportunity to be at patient meetings, have patients come to our office and speak to us, but I'm not doing that day-to-day medical care.

I mentioned cross-functional teamwork. Clearly physicians are working cross-functionally every day, with nurses, with physical therapists, with occupational therapists, we can name lots of them, pharmacists. But they all are generally healthcare providers, or at least in that healthcare provider universe. Whereas the cross-functional teamwork we do in the biopharma industry is much more highly varied. And so, for example, a program team might have a person from manufacturing, a person from regulatory, a person from clinical, an operations person, a program lead who's in charge of timelines, deliverables, a finance person.

And so, we're really working with people who speak very different languages than us. And one of the things you have to learn when you come into the industry are some of these languages so that you can actually communicate effectively with one another. But again, as I said, that was one of the things that I found to be really fun because I wanted to learn new things.

In clinical, the day can be very highly structured. As many of you know, there may be a patient waiting for you tomorrow at 08:30 and you know that they're supposed to be in the room. For those of us in the biopharma industry, I don't have a patient waiting for me. I may very well have an 08:30 in the morning meeting, but if my child is sick and vomiting, that meeting is a very different pressure than the patient waiting in the room. And so, there is more flexibility overall in the biopharma industry.

Now, lots of caveats. You could have a manager that was a dictator-style manager and your flexibility is out the window. But just in generalities, not having sort of that scheduled patient waiting for you makes that very different.

We have key indicators of success. Obviously, we're trying to make bonuses. We're trying to hit our timelines and our goals. Our key indicators of success vary with the function and with seniority. And so typically, the company sets their goals and they filter down through the organization. Whereas in clinical, maybe if you're in academics, it's related to grants or publications, then obviously RVUs are a major measure as well.

Funding pressures might be high. That, of course, might apply more towards the academic group. But in biopharma, we don't have funding pressures. I don't need to get a grant to do the research. The company has a budget to support that.

Those are some compare and contrasts. One, not better than the other, but I like to share them with people so that if they're thinking about a transition, they can start to think about, "Would I like that? Would that be concerning to me? Does that sound really exciting to me?"

I mentioned learning a new language. So I'll move past that one. But I really do encourage people to think about what kinds of learners are they? Do they enjoy new challenges? Do they enjoy or maybe even, sometimes I feel like I get bored if I'm doing the same thing day in and day out. And so this ability to interact with different people helps with that issue of not getting bored.

Again, you're typically not going to be the decision maker. And so when I'm working with a physician that wants to transition, there's this balance of humility and confidence that you have to strike during the interview process. People have stereotypes about doctors. And I think many of us would laugh at the stereotype because we know that for most of us it's not true, but people do think that doctors are know-it-alls. And so when you're looking at being on a cross-functional team, people don't want to work with know-it-alls. So you're balancing that in the interview process, but you also have to balance being confident and showing that you can do this job.

I think it's a lot of fun. One of the perks in my mind, I love to travel and I've had the chance to literally see the world. I've been to Japan, to the country of Georgia, Australia, Europe. Now, some people would say I have no interest in travel, and that's fine too, because there are roles in the pharma industry that have very little travel for physicians too. But for me, this opportunity to really see the world has been great.

I have amazing colleagues. I'm still in touch with people from that first Serono job. I was just at a networking event tonight. And the six degrees of separation, it's way less than that. This industry, people move roles, move companies. And so, you really have an opportunity to meet some really cool people.

And it can be really stressful. We still have timelines. We still have expectations. There are weekends that I'm working because I'm at a conference. There are evenings that I'm working because maybe I'm running a clinical trial in Australia and the times are different. I had a boss one time who said, people think we sit around and drink coffee and eat bonbons. It's not drinking coffee and eating bonbons. But the stress is something in my mind, I have more control over when I do the work. I still have to do the work, but the "when" there's not sort of it waiting for me in a patient room.

So, what are the main roles for physicians in the pharma industry? I break it down into three. These are the three entry level roles. Now, once you get in, really the sky's the limit. Physicians can be CEOs. Physicians can lead business development functions. There are all kinds of opportunities, but those are rare until you get your foot in the door, unless you have some kind of other specialty training like if you were maybe went through a MBA program and came right out into pharma, there might be some other opportunities.

But tonight we'll focus on the three main ones, clinical development, patient safety or pharmacovigilance. And at some companies, they call this drug safety. A lot of names for the same thing. And medical affairs.

In clinical development, the main roles that you're thinking about as you're looking for jobs, clinical scientists and clinical development physician, which is the director level or senior director level. And it goes up from there. Most physicians that are entering are entering in the associate director or director level. That's where I'm pointing most people, and then you can rise from there.

Pharmacovigilance, drug safety, patient safety. Same thing. You're sort of director level in pharmacovigilance. And then medical affairs, again, same thing for the physicians, medical affairs director. And then there's also another thing that many of you have heard of called a medical science liaison. I'm not going to spend much time on that tonight because we have another person that's going to spend a whole lecture on MSLs and she's the right person to do it because she's been an MSL. I've never been an MSL. And so I'm really looking forward to her talk as well.

As we move through those, I'll talk about clinical development first. Clinical development involves all aspects of studying an investigational drug product in humans. So we refer to early phase trials as phase one and phase two and late phase trials as phase three and phase four.

So if you think way, way, way back sometime, probably in medical school, you might've learned about this in one of your courses, but phase one trials are the initial safety trials. These are the first time we're putting drugs into humans. It usually in larger drug populations is in healthy volunteers. In the rare disease world in oncology, it's often patients that we're doing these safety studies in.

Phase two is early proof of concept. So you're still looking at safety. We're always looking at safety, but you're starting to look at proof of concept efficacy. Phase three studies typically are the large phase three. They're randomized double-blind placebo controlled studies that we use for registration or approval of a drug with regulatory agencies.

And then phase four typically is post-marketing. After a drug is approved, companies still are running trials to either follow long-term efficacy or follow long-term safety. And we refer to those as phase four.

That gives you a sense of the sort of large bucket of what clinical development is, but that doesn't really answer your questions, I'm guessing. So, let's dive a little deeper. The clinical development physician at the, again, associate director, director level, when they're coming into pharma, they're going to be involved in clinical development strategy and planning.

We're thinking about not just what does one trial look like, but what does it take to develop the drug all the way from putting it into the first human to getting it approved, whether it's with FDA or EMA, which is the European FDA or the Japanese or the Chinese or whatever it might be, whatever regulatory agency. You're thinking about the whole program.

More detailed responsibilities might include protocol design, where we're focused as the physicians on what are the appropriate inclusion, exclusion criteria, endpoints, safety monitoring. Maybe there's been a safety signal in the tox studies, you need to pull that into the protocol so you can monitor it in humans.

Another big regulatory document called the investigator's brochure, the physician's going to have a lot to say about what's in that document. And then of course, as you generate data, you've got data analysis, presenting data at scientific conferences, highly engaged in regulatory conversations. Going and talking to FDA, going and talking to MHRA in the UK.

Engaging with thought leaders or key opinion leaders, KOLs, to get their input. So I'm a pediatric endocrinologist and I work in the area of neuromuscular disease right now. So I don't know everything about neuromuscular. I need to go and ask the people that do. And so those are my thought leaders or KOLs.

And then I'm interacting with people like clinical operations. Those are the people that actually execute the trials. Regulatory, patient safety, patient advocacy. Again, those cross-functional team members.

I mentioned some of the titles already. Some of the transferable skills would be clinical experience, clinical trial experience. But here it doesn't have to be that you were the PI on a phase three pharma-sponsored randomized double-blind placebo-controlled study. It can be that you participated in research and that can be retrospective as well. Data analysis, publications.

Without clinical research experience, I typically would say to people, clinical development will be the hardest place to enter. But if you have research experience, which many of you do, then there are opportunities to come in through clinical development.

Moving to pharmacovigilance, again, drug or patient safety. This involves all things safety data. Those physicians are really not thinking about the efficacy of the drug. They are focused on safety and they have to understand the whole safety package around the drug from when it was first put into cells and into animals all the way through.

They're focusing on understanding all the available data and trying to assign whether or not there's relatability to a side effect to the drug, but maybe it's related just to the disease that we're trying to treat. And that's where the clinical knowledge comes into the patient safety role.

They have significant interactions with clinical development, with regulatory. I think I had no idea coming into the industry how much safety data we have to send to agencies like the FDA every, not even just year, but there are reports that are required by law that go in and these safety physicians are highly involved in those.

Some of the titles, associate medical director, medical director. And transferable skills here, your clinical experience. You're the one that understands pharmacology. You're the one that understands the actual clinical disease and that understanding is what you bring to the table for a safety role.

Clinical trial experience is a plus, but not a necessity. And if you have any experience as a principal investigator, that's PI or sub investigator where you've had to report safety data, again, that's a plus as well, because you understand the reporting process, but that's something that you can learn in the job. It's really that clinical experience that comes as the transferable skill.

And then moving to medical affairs. I actually find medical affairs to be the more difficult of all three to explain to people, because if I talk to you about a clinical trial protocol, most people can get that safety, but medical affairs is a bit nebulous. The definition is the external scientific medical arm that takes clinical or medical information from the company to external stakeholders, such as those key opinion leaders and patient groups, even more importantly these days. They share that information and they bring information back into the company for us to integrate into our development.

Medical affairs is engaged in the scientific exchange of information with external stakeholders. Those stakeholders might be, as I've said, thought leaders, but healthcare providers generally. It doesn't have to be Professor Smith, who's the best neuromuscular doctor in the whole of the United States. Yes, Dr. Smith is probably important, but the doctors who are treating the neuromuscular patients day in and day out are also very important to me. And I'm using neuromuscular as an example, it could be endocrine, it could be cardiovascular. But getting that information, what do they need from drugs? What is an unmet need? What is not being met appropriately? And again, patients and patient family input as well.

They're sharing that scientific and clinical knowledge and they're gathering that scientific and clinical knowledge. They also are very engaged in teaching. Oftentimes, I'm asked to give a lecture to a group of laboratory colleagues who they understand what they're doing at the bench, but they might not understand the disease they're actually working on and helping them understand it and talking to them about what happens to the patient helps them really understand why they come to work every day. So there's a lot of teaching involved in med affairs.

And you're interacting with a lot of people, clinical, but here may be more commercial colleagues and also regulatory because we are a highly regulated industry and anything we take outside, we have to get approval to do so. Regulatory is an important part as well.

Similar titles, again, I'm going to leave medical science liaisons for tomorrow night, but associate medical director, medical director and transferable skills here, again, that clinical experience. And if you have experience with data analysis, with publications, that can be a really nice addition as well, but again, not absolutely necessary.

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Interview with Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters

In today's episode, Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters explains the 4 important factors to consider to successfully launch your business. She is a consultant for “sciencepreneurs,” helping them design successful commercialization strategies.

Dr. Hein-Peters is a physician with over 30 years of experience working for pharmaceutical and medical device companies. She helped introduce new drugs and vaccines to the market. Her career highlights the impactful nature of nonclinical careers like hers. In her case, she helped develop and market innovations that reduce disease prevalence and mortality.

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This week's episode sponsor is the From Here to There: Leveraging Virtual Medicine Program from Sandrow Consulting.

Are you ready to say goodbye to burnout, take control of your schedule, increase your earnings, and enjoy more quality time with your family? You’re probably wondering how to do that without getting a new certification or learning a whole new set of nonclinical skills.

Here's the answer: The quickest way to achieve more freedom and joy is to leverage virtual medicine.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow and I discussed this in Podcast Episode 266. Cherisa and her team are now preparing to relaunch their comprehensive program for building and running your own telehealth business.

If you want to learn the tools and skills you need to live life on your own terms – then you should check it out today. After completing the 10-week program, you’ll be ready to take your career to the next level.

The program starts soon, and there are a limited number of openings. To help you get a glimpse into the program, Sandrow Consulting is offering a series of FREE Webinars. Go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/freedom to sign up and learn why telehealth is the quickest way to begin your career journey.

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By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Launch Your Business: A Conversation with Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters embarked on a remarkable journey from her beginnings as a psychiatrist to her current role as an advisor and consultant in the dynamic realm of MedTech and digital tech startups. Her transition was driven by a passion for healthcare innovation in the pharmaceutical and medical device industries.

Over the course of three decades, she played pivotal roles in launching groundbreaking drugs and vaccines that visibly impacted disease rates and mortality.

Recognizing that innovation thrives in startups, Dr. Hein-Peters pivoted to support emerging companies in achieving their strategic goals. Her mission became clear: to bridge the gap between innovative ideas and commercial success.

Drawing from her wealth of knowledge, she developed a strategic framework called DIVE (Discovery, Innovation, Value, and Execution) to guide startups to launch their business through the steps needed to bring healthcare solutions to the market. Kasia helps those whom she calls sciencepreneurs translate their innovative visions into tangible successes.

Seize the Moment: Empowering Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

It's a difficult but rewarding path. And I would say that with the most structured approach, diving into it, it's not so difficult. I am encouraging everyone who thinks about entrepreneurship to try to dive with my help. – Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters

Summary

The BEST way to contact her is to connect with Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters on LinkedIn.

You can also explore her website, abantescientific.com, for valuable healthcare entrepreneurship resources that will help you launch your business. She highlights common pitfalls in healthcare startups and the key role of marketing. Dr. Hein-Peters also discusses the growing impact of Artificial Intelligence in healthcare, making her an invaluable resource for clinicians interested in AI applications.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters LinkedIn Profile
• Abante Scientific
• How to Be an Orthopedic Surgeon and Venture Capitalist – 117
• How Revenue Cycle AI Can Save Small Group Practices – 205
• From Here to There: Leveraging Virtual Medicine – 10-Week Comprehensive Telehealth Program
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 319

Apply Discovery, Innovation, Value and Execution to Launch Your Business

- Interview with Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters

John: I'm really excited about having today's guest here. She started as a psychiatrist, moved into the pharma industry. We did a lot with marketing and promotion of new drugs. And lately, in the last, I don't know, since 2014, she's been involved with consulting and teaching entrepreneurs how to start and promote their businesses. So, with that, let me just introduce Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters. Hello and welcome.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm really honored.

John: Oh, this is going to be fun because we do have physicians who are thinking "I'm just kind of ready to move beyond my clinical practice", whether it's because of burnout or because they have a great idea. We've interviewed many entrepreneurs in the past, people that have done startups and even involved venture capital and so forth. You have a lot of experience and you have a model I want to talk about today. So why don't you start by just telling us a little bit about your background, and then we'll go from there.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Great, thank you. As you already said, I am trained as a physician and did residency in psychiatry, and it was a long time ago in Poland. And there after a few years of practicing as a psychiatrist, I started working for the pharmaceutical industry and eventually moved to the United States with my employer. I worked for Merck, I worked for Eli Lilly, Sanofi, Novartis. And finally I worked for a medical device company called Terumo. It's a Japanese company. All in the United States.

And it was probably very lucky in my career because I was always doing very interesting things. And this is introducing new drugs and new medical devices to the market. And what really kept me in the industry for so many years, about 30 years, is the fact that we did have a massive impact on diseases and mortality. And especially my 12 years in companies that manufacture vaccines was very rewarding because each time when you introduce a vaccine on a massive scale, the disease starts going down and it's very visible and it's visible rather quickly. So I think very rewarding career and a lot of product launches.

John: Now, the vaccines that you work on, just to kind of give us some kind of conception of this. Were those vaccines that we would recognize? Were they pretty niche or were they something that's pretty broadly?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: One definitely you would recognize. It was Gardasil in 2006, the cervical cancer vaccine. And then other vaccines that I launched was one of the meningitis vaccines. I launched one of the combination pediatric vaccines, but they are probably not so easy to recognize. And also at dengue vaccine, which was not launched in the US. It was launched in dengue endemic countries.

John: Yeah. There's been a lot of controversy with COVID vaccines but we sometimes forget if you go back, vaccines have improved health and preventive a lot of disease when it's done properly.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Exactly, yes. Yes. That's very true.

John: Now you decided though, at some point, like you said, you were doing this for I don't know, 30 years, more or less, and then you started taking that knowledge and helping others. So how did that happen?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: It was also kind of a reflection during the pandemic. And this was somehow based also on the COVID vaccines. I think we all probably noticed that the most successful companies that introduced the COVID vaccines were actually starting companies. And I obviously don't forget that BioNTech partnered with Pfizer to get a bigger scale, and it worked very successfully. But Moderna and BioNTech are the big heroes of developing very new and very effective COVID vaccines and very quickly. While some very established companies, vaccine manufacturers actually didn't, despite trying.

And actually to some degree, it proves the point that the real breakthrough innovation is happening in startups. Bigger companies are very good at taking some of the innovation that was developed, turning them into platforms, optimizing these platforms. But breakthrough innovation happens in startups, and yet, startups are not very successful. Only 10% of new technologies actually are successful in the market. Because there are also many other companies like Moderna and BioNTech, and they did not succeed.

I kind of always knew that breakthrough innovation happens mostly in startups and smaller companies. But I think at this point I said that I really want to make these smaller companies, emerging companies more successful. Because on one hand, they develop these breakthrough innovations. On the other hand, they are at a disadvantage versus bigger companies who have thousands of people and million dollars in budgets.

So, how can I use the knowledge that I acquired over the last 30 years and really help the startup founders to be more successful with their breakthrough innovations? This was the goal of leading the corporate world and working with them.

John: Okay. You identified a lot of the success strategies and tactics and so forth. I think basically from what I know, just looking at your website and LinkedIn where people can find you, which we'll talk about later is that you've actually kind of developed a model that you use when you're helping these entrepreneurs. I suppose each one's a little different as to what they really need, but I thought it would be interesting to hear at least an overview of your model and might give people ideas of how they can help their own businesses.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yeah, definitely. I come at this with the idea that you should not divide your strategy too much between different functions. Sometimes during many incubators that these founders belong to, they are taught the IP strategy and the regulatory strategy and the commercial strategy, and yet another strategy. And this all feels a little bit separated different strategies.

What I try to do is to show the founders that they really need to have one well connected horizontal strategy. I call it horizontal because it connects all these different aspects of the strategy, but at the same time, they cannot disintegrate into silos. This has to be connected.

I developed a framework that I call DIVE, and it stands for Discovery, Innovation, Value and Execution. And these are four aspects that any enterprise strategy, any startup strategy should have.

Discovery is for market discovery. What do you need to know about the market, your future customers, the patient journey, the unmet need? How do you understand it on a qualitative level, but also how do you quantify the unmet need, which then leads to quantifying the market? That's one big piece. And you have to do it all the time. You have to be connected with the market all the time.

The biggest piece of the discovery comes at the beginning when a startup founder, a sciencepreneurs, as I call them, starts developing a kind of focusing on the specific unmet need, trying to understand it better, and then trying to develop the product. When the product gets into the research and development, I call it innovation phase, because you really are developing an innovative product and how to develop the innovative product.

What are these unique things that your product needs to have to be differentiated in the market? Then the value piece is still a marketing strategy. How do you increase the value of your product or service if you are maybe a SaaS company, your product or service in the marketplace? So that's a classical marketing strategy.

And then execution is how do you execute your strategy. There are two aspects of it. There's a go-to market strategy, and then there is a scaling up of the company. This all kind of constitutes the company strategy, and as I said, it has to be one whole strategy well connected between different functions than kind of contribute to it.

John: A question that came up when I was thinking about this, and as you were talking is I guess what I don't quite understand, and you can explain is what type of clients would you be dealing with? In other words, where do they come from? Are there many physicians involved in this? Just sort of describe the type of people and clients that you work with.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I specifically address my consulting to people who may not have in the past a very deep commercial experience. I think as I mentioned before, I call them sciencepreneurs. These are the doctors, scientists, engineers, some data scientists who have fantastic ideas. They do have some understanding of the healthcare ecosystem, and they do have understanding of the unmet need. But they actually never commercialize the product.

And I think that lack of commercialization experience may negatively influence even the way how they develop their product. I think I mostly address this DIVE framework to people who have scientific minds and want to continue doing science. I'm trying to avoid the marketing lingo. I'm trying to avoid some buzzwords. I'm not trying to teach in the marketing per se. I'm trying to show them how to think strategically about the entire enterprise and different steps that they have to take on their path toward successfully commercializing their product.

John: Interesting. Now, some of the guests I've had, and actually listeners have talked to me about, it seems like one of the biggest struggles is putting that all together when you're looking for cash, you're looking for an investor. And there's different types. I'm not an expert by any means. So, I'm assuming that what you're doing is assisting in that because you're helping them sort of structure and strategically plan and do all these things. How does that help with getting money? And are these angel investors, are these some kind of private equity? Is it all in between? It'd be kind of interesting to hear what your comments are about that.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: It actually helps enormously because there are many consultants who focus on pitch decks, and they say "I will help you with the pitch deck." Fine. They are probably very good communication specialist, and they can help with the pitch decks. I'm not saying that founders shouldn't do it, they should.

However, without a strong strategy behind a pitch deck, we are still pitching maybe the wrong strategy, and it's visible to investors. I think that the pitch deck has two components, actually. It has a strategic component and it has a communication component. And I think that we shouldn't forget about that. So I do help with pitch decks as well. But I always try to reorient the founder on having a really good strategy, really well communicated, and not just a well communicated, but strategy, because it'll not get them funding anyway. Because the investors, they can see through it.

John: Can you give us some examples? It may not have to be the examples of someone you're actually working with now, because that would probably not be appropriate, but I'm just trying to visualize what kind of life scientists or physician entrepreneurs would maybe get to a point where they might say "I need some help." Just examples, maybe from the past.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I will tell you what questions I'm getting, what discussions I'm getting into the most. One discussion I'm very frequently getting into when I discuss the strategy with sciencepreneurs is actually the regulatory strategy. And I'm talking specifically about devices that are FDA regulated.

And so, this question comes up with early startups because they are trying to design their data generation strategy for clinical trials if they have to do clinical trials or any other demonstration project. And the discussion that we typically have is "What is the goal of your regulatory strategy?" And they're like, "Oh, I want to get my product to the market as soon as I can."

But then what is your differentiation of your product? What is your label? What your label will say about your product? And they frequently choose that path of the least resistance which is somehow understandable. But on the other hand, they're losing the ability to drive the value of the product in the market through a very strong label.

That's usually the first discussion that we have. Is it better to get to market fast but have an undifferentiated product? Or is it better to get the market a little later, will cost a little more, but then having a differentiated product? And that's a trade-off, but that's very rarely on top of their mind because many regulatory consultants, maybe they don't ask them the right questions. They say how can I get to the market fastest, not how can I be the most successful in the market. That's a very interesting question that comes up.

The second type of questions come around go-to market strategy. Is it better to position my product in the outpatient clinic? Is it that position in an inpatient setting? And there are a lot of data that have to come into informing a decision like that. That can be both, but it probably cannot be both at the same time, because again, companies have to prioritize which market segments they want to go after.

And here we are frequently dealing with FOMO, the fear of missing out. It almost feels like if I pick one market segment, I will lose the opportunities in the other. But it's really not true. Especially a small company, focusing the resources in one market segment that has reasonable potential and high ability to win is a better strategy than trying to scratch the surface of multiple market segments. I think these are types of decisions and discussions that I am having most of the time with the founders.

John: Now, you kind of touched on the idea of going in the wrong direction. Maybe even I could take it from another perspective and look at it differently, just simply, what are the most common mistakes that you see? Maybe you've already mentioned a couple of them, but what would you say are the mistakes that really overzealous entrepreneurs say, "Okay, I'm going to bring this new device?" And I do want to ask you about AI in a minute, but what are those mistakes that you've identified?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I think a very classical mistake is to focus on product at the expense of focusing on the commercial strategy. And again, commercial strategy does influence the product development. So let's not forget about that. That's why developing at least some basics of the future commercial strategy early on, during product development is necessary. And I see that the founders frequently try to do it in a very linear way. "I do my product first. I don't have time now to focus on commercial. I'll do it later. Let me focus on the product first."

I understand that of course, there is a time when the most of the focus is on the developing of the product, but this has to be with a specific goal in mind. So, how will I market this product? What will be my profile target? What is my target product profile in the market? So, is my minimum viable product actually differentiated enough that I will succeed when I launch it?

All these questions should be answered earlier. And then obviously a company should focus on the product development, but not really push the commercial discussion for later. That's one. The second really big mistake is to jump from product development to sales immediately. So if a founder has a product, it's reaching the regulatory stage, most likely will be approved.

And then they start thinking about sales without thinking about marketing. What does it do to a product? Marketing is the return on investment function. Marketing helps founders to get the highest return with the lowest investment. While if you skip this stage, basically do not develop the value piece in the DIVE framework, jump directly to execution, I think that there's a lot of churn happening with the sales team who doesn't necessarily have clarity about the target segment, may not have clarity about messages, may not have clarity about target customer personas, et cetera.

Because that's all the value development piece. That's another one. Thinking that sales and marketing is one, but it's not. Marketing is a very separate function, and marketing also helps to develop the market itself. Sometimes there needs to be some medical education for prescribers because it's a new solution.

AI is actually a great example of somehow this thing that's coming at us and very few prescribers, clinicians understand that, understand how it works. It's kind of a black box for many. So, how do we educate them in a way that makes them comfortable using some of the AI enabled solutions?

John: Okay. AI. You brought AI up. Because I do have several listeners actually, people that I've been on Mastermind calls with that are really interested in AI. Some have certifications in various types of AI, I guess. But what is going on? How can physicians get more involved in AI if it's something that really interests them? Do you have any advice about that?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I do actually, and I'd like to recommend the organization that is called AIMed, Artificial Intelligence in Medicine. This organization runs trainings and conferences specifically for physicians. I know that there's a lot of education and events around AI. I would say that many of them are highly technical and their audience is mostly people that already have some data science background or IT background. And they're run by data scientists and IT specialists.

Now AIMed took a different approach and I think it's much more suitable for doctors. It's actually doctors in collaboration with data scientists who run these programs. And they are specifically meant for doctors and also for healthcare administration. So I think that's a good organization to be associated with. And in addition to that, there is kind of a sister organization called ABAIM, American Board of Artificial Intelligence in Medicine that runs trainings and board certifications for physicians. So, that's the one that I did.

Obviously, it does explain the technology behind, but is much more focused on the clinical uses of AI. And I think that's what physicians need. They need to understand where AI is really good already, where is it going and how they can kind of start using this without creating risk for their practices or clinics.

John: Okay. I'll put links in the show notes to those organizations if the people have a specific interest in AI. So, what kind of client that might be listening, we have physicians who have some clinical background. Not all of them, some of them have done med school and really didn't do a residency. They could be doing different things, but I know some of them are interested in starting their own businesses or developing a startup. What would be the ideal person to come to you? Someone who hasn't even started yet, or someone who really has something, they have an idea, they maybe have a prototype if it's a product or if it's a software or whatever? And how far along in that journey would they probably be most help by getting someone like you to help them kind of pull it together? Because most of us have some kind of narrow focus, as you said.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yeah. I think that the services that I offer and help that I offer to sciencepreneurs can help them at any stage. And I think it's very important to adjust what I do to what they need. I would say that anyone can contact me, and we definitely can have a discussion. There are no strings attached. I will not try to sell them services that they don't need. I will try to assess their strategic thinking at the stage where they are and see if I can help them at that stage.

Now, some of my more developed services are better suited for companies that already exist. A company needs to exist, and I can help with things like building capabilities, assessing their capabilities versus their strategy. Is there any gap there? Building capabilities, scaling up the company.

I think probably the most value they can get from my services is when they start scaling up the company and when they start thinking about commercialization. These two stages. Now if they want to pick up my brain at earlier stages, I'm very happy to have a chat.

John: Okay. You can be found on LinkedIn.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes.

John: And then you have a website?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I do have a website, abantescientific.com. I just would like to say that I'm redeveloping it right now, so it's not completely to date in terms of my services. That's why I encourage to connect with me through LinkedIn at this point. My website should be much better developed within a month or so.

John: Now, the other thing I would mention because we talked about it and you have actually done some live events and actually created something that's even asynchronous. It's courses or something like that.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yeah.

John: Which you say right now, you can get them to that if they need that or if you feel that's appropriate, but first contact you and then see if they're appropriate for using those kind of resources. Is that correct?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes, definitely. I have also some free resources that I'm very willing to share. I have a newsletter on LinkedIn as well that I encourage everyone to subscribe to. It's specifically meant for founders of life science and digital health startups. And there are a lot of free resources that I'm very, very willing to share.

John: Okay. If somebody out there is really creative, they've got some great ideas, maybe they've already started developing a new business, something in tech, something related to delivering whether it's medical devices or pharmaceuticals or tech, then it would make sense to at least follow you on LinkedIn and then at some point even reach out and pick your brain and maybe even engage you for consulting, if they think that's useful.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes. Or just an initial discussion. As I said, I don't charge anything just to chat with someone about the strategy and understand them a little better and maybe give some expert advice during the initial conversation as well. And then if we find out that I can help, then we can definitely sign some consulting agreement, and I'll be very happy to help.

John: I think that's really useful because I get calls sometimes and they'll say "I'm interested in doing this. And I started working on it, but I don't really know where to go and I don't really have any of that expertise." And so this is a good resource to have. I'll definitely put your LinkedIn and the website at least for now, because you know what? Once it's on there, it's on there forever.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes.

John: Hopefully that will get them wherever they need to go, even a year from now. All right. I think we've covered everything I want to talk about today. Any last minute advice or just last advice for people that have been sort of thinking about doing something crazy with a new device or a new business and they've just been putting it off? In any words of wisdom or encouragement?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I think it's a very rewarding path. It's a difficult but rewarding path. And I would say that with the most structured approach, diving into it, it's not so difficult. I am encouraging everyone who thinks about entrepreneurship to try to dive with my help.

John: Can they, at least at the beginning, do this thing part-time and try and see if they're getting some traction before giving up other income? Even though it may be burning out a little bit, but I would think you could at least start part-time.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes, it's possible. And I see a lot of founders starting part-time. It's very difficult to quit your job and put all your eggs in one basket, especially it's so risky. I actually wouldn't even recommend that. I think doing this part-time is fine at the beginning.

John: And then you can just get a sense of okay, this looks like it's going to catch on. It looks like it's going to be successful. Nothing's guaranteed, but at least then you have something to base a more reasonable decision on.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yeah.

John: All right, Kasia. This has been really interesting and fun. I thank you very much for being with me today. I'm going to have to check back with you in about a year from now or so and see how things are going.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Very gladly. Thank you, John, for inviting me. It was a pleasure.

John: You're welcome. Bye-bye.

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Interview with Dr. Brian S. Foley

In today's episode, Dr. Brian Foley shares valuable insights on how the midcareer physician can achieve financial freedom.

Dr. Brian Foley, known as the Wealthy Doc, pursued a medical degree at Upstate Medical University of the State University of New York and completed his Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation Residency at the Ohio State University College of Medicine. Alongside his clinical career, he attained a traditional MBA in Finance from Indiana University's Kelley School of Business. Since then he dedicated himself to educating medical professionals on financial matters through his blog and book.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Wealthy Doc's Guide to Achieving Financial Freedom

Dr. Brian Foley's background stems from a humble upbringing in rural upstate New York. His journey through medicine and later an MBA in finance, drove his desire to help fellow physicians make better financial decisions. This led him to create the Wealthy Doc blog and write the book Wealthy Doc’s Guide to Achieving Financial Freedom.

Dr. Brian Foley's blog, “Wealthy Doc,” initially began as a resource to help students and residents navigate financial complexities while pursuing their medical careers. Over the years, it has evolved to cover a wide range of financial topics. These include insurance, investing, and real estate, with a focus on providing valuable insights to physicians and high earners. 

His book, “Wealthy Doc’s Guide to Achieving Financial Freedom,” delves deeper into these subjects, offering guidance tailored to the unique financial challenges faced by physicians.

Strategies for Midcareer Physicians to Enhance Their Incomes

Dr. Brian Foley mentioned several ways for physicians to increase their income:

1. Negotiating Contracts: Physicians can negotiate better compensation packages before accepting a job, utilizing leverage when they are in demand. It's important to understand one's value in the job market by researching salary surveys and talking to colleagues.
2. Expense Reduction: Reducing personal expenses can be an effective way to improve financial health, with tax advantages for those who spend wisely.
3. Multiple Income Streams: Diversifying income sources through investments like stocks, bonds, real estate, and other passive income streams can boost income with minimal investments of time.

Regarding real estate, Dr. Foley emphasized that while it's a popular choice, it's not obligatory for physicians. Real estate can be a valuable asset class, and options range from passive investments like Real Estate Investment Trusts (REITs) to more active ones like owning rental properties, syndications, or funds.

He noted that syndications have higher risks and require more knowledge, making them more suitable for experienced investors. Funds offer a middle ground, providing diversification with passive management.

Summary

Dr. Brian Foley emphasizes the importance of achieving financial freedom for the midcareer physician. He wrote his book, “Wealthy Doc's Guide to Achieving Financial Freedom,” as a resource for physicians starting to practice. This insightful guide offers a physician's perspective on financial management and practical tips from real-life experiences. You can find his book on Amazon.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Wealthy Doc's Guide to Achieving Financial Freedom on Amazon
• Dr. Brian Foley's Website
• Dr. Brian Foley's LinkedIn Page
• How to Run Your Business and Master Your Finances – 176
• How to Prepare Financially for a Career Pivot with Ryan Inman – 071
• Top Advice for Generating More Money with Less Hustle – 300
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 316

- Interview with Dr. Brian Foley

John: Today's guest is a fellow online educator, but in his case, he uses a blog to help educate physicians and other clinicians about finances, investing, and other important topics. I've been following him for years, but when he published his book recently, I knew it was time to invite him onto the podcast. So let's welcome Dr. Brian Foley to the show. Hello, Brian.

Dr. Brian Foley: Hey, thanks. I'm honored to be here. I have a lot of respect for you and your work, John. I've been following you for a long time. I enjoy your podcast and I've had many friends and colleagues on your podcast, so I'm glad to finally be included.

John: Excellent. I'm glad to hear that. We're just among friends here, so I thought I could pick your brain, and basically what I think, the way I look at it is my listeners, for the most part are either just interested in learning something new about careers or about finances. They may be burned out, they may just be frustrated, maybe looking for a new career. But I think there's a lot of things you can teach us today that our listeners will benefit from. So I appreciate you being here today.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah, I hope to help.

John: All right. Now, we usually start with just getting a little bit of background. I do have a little intro that I will record separately before we actually start talking. But I'd like to get your version of a little bit of what you think is important about your background and how you came to create the blog and write the book and all that kind of thing.

Dr. Brian Foley: Sure. Yeah. I grew up rather poor, which becomes relevant when I talk about these financial issues. Kind of a loving family in upstate New York. When I say New York, people think of the city, but it's really quite rural. And I was interested in science and I liked people. So like a lot of people that go into medicine and trying to figure how to combine those two interests. I was a chemistry major. I thought I'd be a scientist, but then I realized, one, I'm not that great at it and two, I didn't want to live in a lab. A lot of my friends were pre-med and I just learned more about it and went with that route.

After medical school, I specialized in physical medicine and rehab. And that's kind of a wide field. It's one that a lot of even doctors don't know much about. But briefly, the inpatient work is with spinal cord injury, head injury, traumatic brain injury, things like that. I do more of the outpatient, which is musculoskeletal, kind of non-operative orthopedics, nerve testing. We overlap a little bit with anesthesia pain, things like that. And like a lot of neuro docs especially, I think we tend to have a lot of outside interests. And so I was always interested in a lot of things, reading, writing, different kinds of career, and business.

And after meeting a lot of physicians who weren't really making a lot of good financial decisions, and were a little bit overconfident maybe in their burgeoning skills, I decided to get an MBA. I specialized in finance in the MBA and that became very helpful in my own life and in helping fellow colleagues as well.

John: That's a lot. I want to reflect on a couple of things. There's a picture of your house in the book, by the way, which we're going to talk about in a minute. That'll give the listeners and the readers an idea of what you're talking about in terms of the starting out in a more of a poverty situation. I'm just thinking of things where I can relate to you. So I was a chem major too, so go chem school.

Dr. Brian Foley: All right. All right.

John: I actually worked as a food scientist for two years before finally getting into med school.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah, I worked for one year at DuPont actually.

John: Did you? Okay.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah. Yeah.

John: That came in handy, didn't it?

Dr. Brian Foley: Yes. Yes.

John: It comes in handy every day actually, if you think about it.

Dr. Brian Foley: It does.

John: And I really love physiatrists. As a family physician, I worked in occupational medicine. Nobody could help me out better than a physiatrist when I couldn't get someone feeling better. And you're still doing that, right? You're practicing full-time?

Dr. Brian Foley: That's good to hear. I'm part-time, yeah.

John: Part-time.

Dr. Brian Foley: Part-time.

John: Okay. Now, you decided along the way to do a little segue or a little squeeze in a little MBA. Now, that's not typically, especially the school you went to is very well known. And so, tell us how you managed to fit that in and balance that with what you were doing clinically.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah. I didn't realize how unusual my path was, but the North American Spine Society asked me to give a talk in Toronto to the spine surgeons mostly about my background because they said, they've been looking around, they haven't really found anybody who's a physician who has a business degree, who worked in private practice, who worked in academia and who is employed physician, salaried and non-profit. And I've done all three. I was in private practice for about five years. And then I went into academia and at that time I found out that when you're on the faculty, the school will pay for your tuition.

John: Perfect.

Dr. Brian Foley: And so I said, "Does that count even the MBA because per credit, that's a lot more." They said, "Yeah, it doesn't matter." I had a friend who's a colleague, I don't know if he's smarter than I am or not, but he chose wine tasting as his choice semester after semester. So I did my MBA instead. That was a great opportunity for me. Because in academia it was a pretty light schedule and there's a lot of flexibility. So in the evenings, I was already on campus, so I did in-person. Hard-core full MBA was three years, the evenings and weekend. So it was definitely a lot of work, but I really got a lot of that and I enjoyed it.

John: Well, you answered a question a lot of times I get, and that's "Should I get an MBA? Do I need to get something like that?" And my answer usually is "It's great if you can do it, but get your employer to pay for it, if at all possible." Why go spend $60,000 or whatever it might be? Now my podcast is sponsored by an MBA program at the University of Tennessee. So I definitely am not going to bad mouth the idea.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah. There's a lot of benefits to that formal training if you have the interest. Now, I did it mainly because I have the interest. I actually gave a talk at the White Coat Investor annual conference on that very topic. Should physicians get an MBA? And if I had to pick one word, I would say no. But it's mainly because if you go to a talk and someone says don't do it, and that talks you out of doing it, then you probably didn't have enough motivation to get yourself through it because it's a lot of work.

But I think if you have interest and you want formal training, it was helpful to me. The job I have now was from that, directly from that. I was recruited because of my business training and it's helped me be more rigorous in my own financial investments and advice to others. It gives me credentials. It opens up doors for speaking and writing. So it's very, very helpful for those who are interested and can pull it off.

John: Okay. Then I'm going to ask one other question that's kind of related to that and to see what your answer is here. Let's say that I happen to have the opportunity to get the MBA during or immediately after med school, or should I go wait and do the executive MBA, which I think basically is what typically we would call what you did. What's your answer to that question?

Dr. Brian Foley: Well, technically mine was not the executive MBA, but the executive MBA I think there's a more brief kind of accelerated version, especially in healthcare. If they take advantage of your healthcare experience, they might be a year, a year and a half. So it's maybe more expensive, but less of a time commitment. So, there's pros and cons of different MBA programs.

When to do it. I think a lot of these decisions are very personal. What's going on in your life, what's your situation. From a pure financial standpoint, I would say start your medical career. That's the way I did it. Or do an MD/MBA. If you have that option, that's a really affordable and good time to do it. When you're a starving student, you're studying anyway, you add on an extra semester or a year even, and you come out with dual degrees. That's a nice option. A lot of my colleagues have done that. But later in life, I think you can afford it. You can take time off, do it on weekends and add your credentials.

Now, most people who get an MBA just across the country, not physicians, but all people who get MBAs generally look for an income boost. And generally, they do get a very significant boost. For physicians that isn't necessarily the case. I think we have to be very focused on what exactly do I want from that degree? Could I get those skills and talents in some other fashion?

If I want to learn negotiation, if I want to learn finance, there's a lot of ways online, some of them even for free. There's actually a book and a website called the No-Pay MBA. So there's a lot of online sources. For me I need formal structure in the school and the class to go to, it's just how I learn best personally. But there's a lot of options out there.

John: Now, it sounds like you had a lot of interest in finance and investing and planning for the future and so forth, but if I remember correctly, you did finish the MBA before you started the blog or somewhere in there.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yes.

John: I have a feeling you could have probably started before that, but anyway, that's the way it was. So tell us now, what's going on with the blog? You've been doing that a long time. There is a lot of information. When I look at it, basically it's just tons of free information, not just blog posts, but how-to and other things. Tell me more about the blog so people understand what they might get from that.

Dr. Brian Foley: Great. Thanks for your compliment. I appreciate that. I started the blog really to help the students and residents that I was working with. They were really interested in finances, and they're overwhelmed with how much they have to learn just to be a good doctor. So they couldn't sit down and read textbooks and finance, even if that were interest of theirs. At the time, this was 2007 when I started this, so there were blogs that started a few years earlier, but it was still kind of fledgling.

And the students would say, "Well, the books you recommend are great, but is there a website I can go to?" And at the time I searched and there wasn't really. But Bernstein has post Efficient Frontier that he wrote starting in 1998 that I followed, but it was really only investing. It was very technical, so it wasn't helpful to the residents. I started this really to help them. And I've just added it as I add content and have thoughts, I'll put that in. A lot of attendings have told me that's helpful. I gave lectures and it kind of spun off from there to give public speaking and eventually the book.

John: Okay. Now, if I remember, again, I haven't read every page of the blog, but, there's stuff about insurance, there's stuff about investing, and then you get a little bit into real estate. Actually, a lot of this is covered in the book. I'm assuming some of it you've written about before as well. So tell us more about just kind of the smattering of different types of related topics you might cover.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah. I try to focus mostly for physicians or other high earners who don't know a lot about finance. Probably 80% to 90% of it is really basic finance is true for anyone, helpful to anyone. But some of it is specific to physicians starting late, maybe being overconfident, over trusting, having a lot of debt. Those kind of things that resonate a lot with physicians.

I have several posts that are just overview of the basics. And then how to structure the overview thinking of personal finance, but then I do deep dives into disability or other things that may interest the readers as well. So, hopefully there's something for everyone if you search in there.

John: Now, because I have a different perspective in terms of talking to a lot of physicians that are frustrated and find that medicine isn't exactly what they thought it was going to be. It doesn't mean they don't want to continue to do it in some fashion but there's a lot of unrest and dissatisfaction.

I was toying with calling today's episode of the podcast "Why the Mid-career Physician Must Achieve Financial Freedom." And so, I put that question to you, and I have my own ideas, but I feel like it's important that a mid-career physician do achieve financial freedom. And so, maybe you can give me your thoughts on why that might be, and then we can talk about some of the simple things we should probably do to achieve that.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yes, I agree completely with you. Sure, I hear that a lot, but I think we probably should hear it more. A lot of physicians don't have a lot of interest or experience in finance, and a lot of them are very confident, especially starting out at 30, 35 years old. "Hey, I have a good income. I love my career. Why should I care about finance? I have a money guy for that. I want to delegate it."

And my answer, and this is what I would tell my 30-year-old self. I'm in my mid-50s now. I would tell my 30-year-old self, okay, I'm glad you love it. I'm glad you're good at it. I'm glad it's a nice career, but work may change. Your regulatory environment may change. Instead of having private practice, maybe you're working for a big company, you'll always agree. Maybe you'll run into some health crises or you need to take time off for your spouse. Maybe your interest will change. You'll find, "Hey, I'm really more interested in the psychology and psychiatry than I am in my interventional things that I'm doing."

I told a lot of names from my blog. At one point I thought maybe FI by 50 was a title. FI is financial independence, meaning you don't necessarily need to work to cover your expenses. And that's what I recommend for most physicians. Now, I started out age 31, and at the age 48 I was financially independent. That's about 17 years. The numbers say that if you save somewhere between 30%, 35%, 40% of your gross income, that's about 50% or half of your net income in 17 years you'll be financially independent.

Now, I never had a fixed savings rate, but it worked out about that in the end. So, for some, especially physician couples that have two incomes or they're married to an attorney with a high income, some people just save one and live on the other. And by 50 they are usually independent.

Now, does that mean you have to quit your work? Absolutely not. But what I found is it gave me the confidence to say, "You know what, at 50 I'm going to go part-time." So, I do three days a week clinical now, and I've done that for the last six years. And that's been wonderful.

Now, physicians think that they don't have the clout to negotiate, especially for a big employer like I work for. A $3 billion eight-hospital system. But being financially independent gave me a little boost of confidence to say, "You know what? I can do this. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work." And they said, "Oh, yeah, I would love to have you in any capacity. Of course." To replace a physician who's experienced and live with the system is very expensive to them. And so, they're willing to help. For that reason, I think it's great to be financially independent, to give yourself options.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Again, because I have a biased view, I'm talking to people as they're burned out and so forth, it's like, I think a lot of the specialties that we are in, they're interesting, they can be very exciting, but they can be draining. To practice 20, 25 years doing something intense with long hours, you don't realize that stamina doesn't always persist. And if you are not financially free or already set in some fashion, then you really start to feel trapped. And like you said, if you do have the financial freedom and you decide you want to keep working, like you said, three to five days a week, whatever it might be, you don't have that burden anymore that you don't have options.

Dr. Brian Foley: I agree completely. If you had asked me "Are you burned out at 50?" let's say, I would've said, "No. I love what I do." But I cut back and after looking back, I have a fellow, friend, blogger, and he has this blog called Crispy Doc. He was a little bit crispy.

John: Crispy, yeah.

Dr. Brian Foley: He wasn't burned out. And that's kind of how I felt looking back. I love my job. I love my clinical work, but I will say I do love it a lot more now that I do less of it. And I'm less dependent on it, and I'm a lot more willing to mentor and teach. And I even had meetings on my day off. I really enjoy it more now that I'm not forced to be on that treadmill counting every WRV and worried about covering overhead while I'm on vacation, things like that, that add stress that you may not even realize until it's gone.

John: Now, all these things are covered in the book, right? And how to achieve that, and how do you get more income. I wanted to get a little deeper into that particular topic. You brought it up about how you were able to get a little more leverage. But I think you go in the book a little more detail. So, what kind of things can a physician do to get more income without changing their career or moving to another facility or something?

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah. I think there's a lot that physicians can do on the front end, especially that's the best time to negotiate your job is before you sign up. And once you set that track, that salary, if you're at that same institution for a long time, it's really tough to have a big change, 20%, 50% increase. But before you start and they really want you there, that's a great time. You have a lot more leverage than you realize. I think learning some basics of contract negotiation or getting someone to help you with it, reviewing your contract, knowing your value in the marketplace, looking at surveys.

There's a lot of them out there now. AMGA, MGMA, SullivanCotter Online, Medscape, Doximity, there's PayScale and salary.com. Look at all those for your specialty and get an idea and talk to your friends and colleagues if you have a few that are willing to talk to you about salary and options. So that you know you're going into that getting your value because there's a lot of variation within this chosen specialty that you have.

Some people feel like, "Well, I'm in this X specialty, or I'm in primary care and my income is limited." And there's some truth to that for sure, but there's a lot of leeway in negotiation. In anything, if you do a work job negotiation, you don't need an MBA to learn some basics from negotiation. That will help you a lot.

The second point I would say is we're talking about income and that's great. I'll talk a lot about that if you want me to, but reducing your expenses is the best way for physicians to get ahead, in my opinion. They don't always want to hear that, but most doctors overspend in my opinion. And it's easier to cut your expenses. There's tax advantages to doing that. If you're already making $200,000, $250,000, $300,000, you're in the top 5%, maybe 3%, 10% depending on where you live and what you do. So, getting that extra $20,000, $30,000, if that takes you a lot of work, a lot of risk, a lot of stress may not be the best way to achieve your goal.

And thirdly, I was really sold the idea of multiple streams of income early on. And this passive income is maybe not the best phrase for it, but latent income, recurring income, horizontal income, something like that where you put out a book or a course or a project, and you continue to get income. Or you buy a bond or a stock, a dividend paying stock or invest in a private company, and that continues to produce income. Real estate, obviously is a great choice for a lot of physicians. Produces ongoing income and capital appreciation. Those are great ways to boost income without doing the extra labor as well.

John: Do you have a favorite, since you brought up real estate. There's a lot of ways to invest in real estate. It's not always as easy, it's not always passive, but what about you? Do you have a particular preference when it comes to using real estate as part of your overall approach to maintaining that income?

Dr. Brian Foley: I do. I've been invested in real estate my whole career, which is basically 25 years as a physician. I will say clearly, emphatically is absolutely not required. It's very popular right now. There's a lot of blogs and conferences and it's a booming market and a lot of doctors are interested for very good reasons, but realize it is not required. And everybody from Harry Markowitz who started Modern Portfolio Theory to Warren Buffet, to the Vanguard founder, Jack Bogle, all say a mix of stocks and bonds is all you need. So, you can do investing simply as a physician without any difficulty.

But having said that, if you want to add real estate, I do think it makes sense. It's a separate asset class, so it doesn't always go up and down when stock and bonds go up and down. You can buy it fairly easily and passively as a REIT, Real Estate Investment Trust. From companies like Vanguard, Fidelity, TIAA-CREF, they all sell these that you can just buy in. You don't have a tenant to worry about.

AAA leases are a little more involved, but they're still kind of passive. I've invested in medical office buildings, surgery centers, some physicians have options for hospitals. I've owned several single-family homes as rental units. And now I'm doing more funds and syndications and apartment buildings, things like that. The benefits are many, but appreciation. These assets tend to grow over time. Depreciation, which is a tax benefit to physicians. Then you can write off some expenses and then you get some cashflow coming in. So there's a lot of arguments to get involved if you have some interest.

John: Yeah, it sounds like start with the simpler ones perhaps unless you have to invest a lot of time. I'm not investing in the syndicate, for example, but it sounds very attractive. And when I get hit retirement, if I'm getting some kind of cash out from real estate or I am a part owner in an urgent care network, blah, blah, blah. Well, then I might have a bunch of cash, I would consider it, but I would definitely have to really dig into to learn about those, but they sound like an interesting option.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah. For those who don't want to, I think funds are another option somewhere between REITs and syndication. A fund is private, usually you have to be an accredited investor, which almost all physicians are if they work, and make $200,000 for an individual or $300,000 a couple, or have a million dollars in assets, you can be eligible for a fund.

And they buy multiple properties, usually in multiple regions of the country. So you have more diversification. Syndications are a very concentrated investment in one facility, and so you're susceptible to economic changes, to fraud, and there's a lot of risks. So you really have to be pretty knowledgeable. And I'm a little aware, there's a lot of physicians jumping in the syndication without really understanding what it is, and they've gone really well in the past, but that doesn't mean they're going to continue.

John: I think the pandemic threw things for a loop for a while there. I don't know if they've recovered from that or not at this point.

Dr. Brian Foley: They did. Yeah. I was lucky. I had some single-family homes at the time. But everybody was able to pay the rent. I didn't have to worry about eviction, but I was lucky.

John: Nice.

Dr. Brian Foley: If you have just one or two rental houses and you lose your tenants, you can be really hurting. So that's the argument for having a small investment in a larger property with a group of other people. You get a little more protection there.

John: Good advice. Yeah. You always got to be diversified and protecting yourself and also do your research. Okay. First, I don't think we mentioned the website's address, maybe you did, but it's wealthydoc.org, right?

Dr. Brian Foley: That's correct. If you go to wealthydoc.com, you'll be diverted to the .org.

John: Okay. Cool. And like I said, we talked a little bit about what's on there, but now tell us more about the book in terms of why should I buy the book and where should I buy it?

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah. I wrote the book for those who are starting out in practice. Basically I wrote it for my 30-year-old self of the things I wish I had known that would kind of set me on the right track for the future. I tried to make it pretty readable. I had a lot of help. Writing a book, it's a lot harder than it seems it should be. To make it readable, I put in some personal stories about what I've been through, try to share some tips from school of hard knocks. If you just want straight-up good financial advice, you can go to the Personal Finance For Dummy series or something like that. But if you're interested in a fellow physician who is doing his best to be honest and teach what he has learned, it's a good source for that. It's not the only one out there, but I wanted to put my voice in the mix.

John: Well, I think too, because it's from the physician's perspective, we all kind of go through the same things, more or less. Everyone's path is a little different, but we all put things off while we're in our training. Most of us have loans we have to deal with. As I read through it, it just flows naturally. Oh yeah, this is what I needed then, and then later on I needed this.

And so, I definitely recommend it. You can get it at Amazon, like you said, very easy. And it's easy to read and it's probably not 600 pages, it's not scientific, it's an actual good advice and information. I think it didn't hurt that you got the MBA along the way to talk about some of the slightly more technical things.

Dr. Brian Foley: Great. Thank you.

John: All right. Any advice you have for us before we go? I guess we're running out of time here in terms of just knowing a little bit about my audience, they might be in the middle career since that's what we were focusing on. Mid-career, feeling a little frustrated, a little helpless. What advice do you have for them in general and regarding their finances?

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah. I think there's a lot of time for hope. There's a lot of resources out there now like websites and blogs and podcasts like yours, groups on Facebook and other social media outlets can bring people together, physicians to collaborate on what's a good side gig and how do you benefit from.

I didn't talk about the tax benefits, but having a little bit of side income can help. You can have a solo 401(k) or a SEP IRA to put aside a little bit more money there. And you can write off some of your expenses. As well as having a creative outlet outside of medicine can sometimes, even if you're going to continue, like my blog, I really enjoy the creative writing outside whether it's financially successful or not. And that helps me feel a little bit rejuvenated when I go back to my career.

If you're thinking about another career outside of medicine, my advice is to dabble in it while you're a physician. And I certainly did a lot of that. If you can cut back a little bit, maybe drop a call or cut back a half day here and there and add some moonlighting daylighting. Some of the things that I have done despite me saying increasing your income isn't the way to go. I did find benefits of doing that.

Some examples, because I think a lot of your audience may be interested in some of those. I've done IMEs. I've done some medical consulting for investment banks. I've had five or six different medical directorships. I've done some medical informatics where I taught fellow physicians how to use our EMR well.

There's paid surveys, file reviews, lawyers and insurance companies and state workers' comp boards are really interested in physicians and input and want to pay them. They realize they make good money and they want to. There's opportunities for coaching your peers. Once you learn something, you're a little bit ahead of someone else. You don't need to be the world's best expert, but just being a little ahead of your peers, you can give other people hope and encouragement and show them how.

Next thing you know, you'll be doing what I'm doing, paid speaking and teaching and writing and you can open up a whole new world. And then if you find, "Hey, I love this better and I'm making a good income" then you can transition maybe a little bit earlier out of medicine.

John: Yeah. I like that. The coaching, the lecturing, speaking, and so forth for particularly what you're combining what you know about medicine and then about, in your case, finances and where those two things meet. And so, there's this whole audience of people that haven't gotten there yet that just want to learn something either face to face or in written format or whatever. And so, that's a great side business.

Dr. Brian Foley: Yeah, I agree. And if I can help anyone please feel free to reach out. If you go to my website, there's a contact section. You can email me. I don't have any paid services. I'm not here to make money off my colleagues, but I'm glad to share what I know.

John: And they can reach out at LinkedIn too, I believe. Is that possible?

Dr. Brian Foley: Yes, sure. Yeah. About most of the social media platforms out there.

John: Okay. Excellent. Well, we are out of time now, so we could go on for hours I think. We've only touched on three chapters in the book if that. But I really appreciate you being here today, Brian. This is very useful and educational and I encourage everyone to get the book and follow up with you if they have questions.

Dr. Brian Foley: Thanks, John. My pleasure.

John: All right. I hope to see you again sometime and maybe get you back on the podcast. And with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Brian Foley: That'd be great. I'll see you.

John: Bye-bye.

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The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Why the Midcareer Physician Must Achieve Financial Freedom – 316 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Interview with Dr. Savi Chadha

In today's episode, Dr. Sava Chadhi returns to the podcast to explain the steps he took to advance his career as a Medical Affairs Leader.

Dr. Savi Chadha's pharmaceutical journey began as an MSL with Amplity Health in 2016 and later advanced to Supernus Pharmaceuticals in 2017, where he thrived. Once he was working as an MSL he completed board certification by the Medical Science Liaison Society. And his two nominations for MSL of the Year by the MSL Society reflect his exceptional contributions to the industry.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Becoming a Medical Affairs Leader

John and Dr. Chadha discussed the topic of advancing one's career in the field of Medical Affairs. Savi provided his unique insights and shed light on strategies for listeners who aspire to fast-track their career growth.

1. Proactivity: Being proactive is crucial for career advancement. Expressing interest in tasks, taking the initiative, and letting your manager know about your aspirations are key steps.
2. Leadership: Stepping up as a leader within your team showcases your initiative and can accelerate your career progression.
3. Management Experience: Gaining experience in managing other team members, by onboarding or participating in employee training can be valuable for career growth.
4. Certification: Pursuing the MSL certification shows dedication and expertise in your role. 

Remember, your initiative, leadership skills, job knowledge, and relevant certifications all play a role in accelerating your career.

Strategic Tips for Starting Your MSL Career

When seeking opportunities in the field, engaging with pharmaceutical representatives can prove highly advantageous. These professionals regularly visiting medical offices and hospitals are sources of valuable information and pathways to meaningful networking.

Taking the initiative to connect MSLs and sharing your resume if job openings arise, can create a pathway into these nonclinical roles. This often-overlooked resource can open doors to new career prospects.

Dr. Savi Chadha's Advice

Be persistent and patient. Transitioning takes time. It may not happen right away; it could take months or even years. Don't take rejection personally; stay resilient and work through it. Despite the stress prompting the transition, give it the time it needs.

Summary

Dr. Savi Chadha's insights provide advice for those aiming to excel in Medical Affairs. As a seasoned Medical Science Liaison (MSL), his journey from entry-level to senior positions offers a unique perspective.

He emphasized proactive engagement, leadership, and expanding skillsets. Additionally, he encourages listeners to persist in the journey towards nonclinical roles with patience, persistence, and “thick skin” to achieve that goal.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• How to Thrive as a Medical Science Liaison with Dr. Savi Chadha – 050
• Dr. Savi Chadha's LinkedIn Page
• Dr. Savi's Instagram Page
• Dr. Savi's Facebook Address
• How to Optimize Your Career as an MSL with Dr. Linda Ho – 051
• How to Network Effectively to Become an MSL – 089
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 315

Develop These Essential Skills to Be a Visionary Medical Affairs Leader

- Interview with Dr. Savi Chadha

John: Today's guest was the first MSL I ever interviewed almost five years ago on episode number 50 of the podcast. And I'm really happy to have him back with us to provide his insights and his advice about working in the pharma industry. So, welcome back, Dr. Savi Chadha.

Dr. Savi Chadha: Thank you very much, John. Great to be here. Great to be back.

John: It's good to see you. I have a lot to follow up on with you. I know you were so helpful the first time we talked. I don't have too many guests that have been in pharma, a new job with pharma and moved up the chain and that kind of thing. Maybe at the most it might be one other person. So I'm really glad you can help us today.

Dr. Savi Chadha: I'm glad I could do it. I'm glad I can be here.

John: Now my audience can go back and listen to the original episode. But why don't you go ahead and give us the short version of what you were doing before you became an MSL and then basically how you landed your first job, and then we'll take it from there.

Dr. Savi Chadha: Sure. Well, I think like a lot of your audience members, I was a clinician. I was going to the hospital, writing, seeing patients, and I think like a lot of physicians these days, I was starting to lose some of my satisfaction with the work. The same frustrations that I think a lot of us have, in terms of day-to-day patient care.

A friend of mine, actually, he had made the transition from clinical work into the MSL world. And he knew about my background. He knew that I had some business experience before I went to medical school. I actually worked in advertising. So he knew that I had some good relationship building skills. And so, he introduced me to the MSL role.

After quite a bit of thought into it, I started doing more research into it. And eventually I decided to take the plunge and I started interviewing, researching, and networking was a big one. And eventually, back in 2016, I did land my first MSL position, and I've been working as an MSL ever since.

John: Excellent. Looking back, if you have any pearls of wisdom about getting your first MSL job? We're not going to spend a lot of time on that, but anything that you would put out there in terms of advice for physicians looking for that?

Dr. Savi Chadha: Yeah, I would, and this is a question I do get a lot. Getting an MSL job is plain and simple. It's a competitive type job. There are a lot of people applying in addition to us, MDs and DOs. PhDs apply, PharmDs apply, and now the field is taking more advanced practitioners, so nurse practitioners as well as physician's assistants.

So, it's becoming more and more competitive to get MSL jobs. That being said, as MDs we certainly bring a wealth of knowledge and a lot of experience to that. Even though it is a competitive landscape, I encourage people to be confident in their interviewing abilities and their skills, and also to have a good amount of patience and fortitude because I think most people I've spoken to did not get their first offer, or I should say did not get their first interview, excuse me. And it was disheartening.

The trick I think for a lot of people is not to personalize rejection. Just maintain your focus, stay the path, if you will, and be patient and just be persistent. I think in most cases, the people that I've talked to that have made it or that have succeeded, have done that.

John: Well, I think that is a job where you can't have an MSL degree or something that's going to say, "Okay, you're the perfect person for this job", from what I know. You learn a lot. You could learn when you're interviewing, you learn when you're looking at job descriptions. I think it would make sense, correct me if I'm wrong, but to join the MSL society, even if you're not an MSL, because they have things that support people looking for that job, I believe.

Dr. Savi Chadha: They do. And I utilized them when I was searching, and I still work with them regularly. They have a wealth of information. In terms of both, about the MSL position itself and in terms of landing a position, interviewing, they go into a lot of detail. They're a great resource, fantastic resource.

John: Yeah. It's not like looking for your first medical school app job. Not a job but getting into med school, getting to your residency. There's kind of a prescribed process for that, but switching to a new career like this can be somewhat scary and the unknown.

Dr. Savi Chadha: It certainly can be. Especially in healthcare, I think a lot of our career paths have a strongly laid out career path. And this certainly goes off that beaten path, and we're sort of shredding our own way. So, it can very much be anxiety inducing.

John: Now you've been doing this job in different forms for a while. So, has it lived up to what you thought it would be? That would be of interest to us.

Dr. Savi Chadha: I'd say, yeah, I would say it has. It's a very enjoyable, satisfying job. In terms of being at the sort of cutting edge of clinical research, I get exposed to the newest treatments in my therapeutic area. I find out what clinical trials are going off or what new drug out there. So that's really fascinating. It's really nice actually to really have that excitement and enthusiasm of a new product coming out to treat a disease. From that aspect, it's certainly very satisfying and I think that's always been there. I foresee that always continuing to be there. That's just in the nature of the position.

John: Now, from talking to yourself I think previously and others, I've heard that it can have a fair amount of travel involved. It's just part of the job, although it can vary depending on whether you have a giant territory or a small territory or what have you. But has that changed at all in the last five years? I know with the pandemic a lot of nonclinical jobs where they're allowing them to do more remotely. So, tell us what that's like right now for you, or has been.

Dr. Savi Chadha: That's actually a great question, and certainly the pandemic had a very significant impact on MSLs day-to-day activity. All of our in-person discussions moved online, like I think many peoples are. Now that the pandemic has sort of wound down, a lot of us are back in the field. So, we are meeting with clinicians and researchers in person. That does require a lot of travel which is very much similar to what it was prior to pre pandemic. So it certainly has gone back to that model. Yeah.

John: Okay. I'm sure it varies by, again, the situation. That's just something to remember. But now you have been working there, and I know you ended up switching companies and now you've got some different roles. So, why don't you explain what's happened over those last five years for you?

Dr. Savi Chadha: Sure. Yeah. I think as I've been there at my current company longer, I've certainly gotten more projects and more type of administrative roles given to me. And some of these things are projects like interviewing new potential MSLs, training new MSLs, and then certainly managing them as well. Those are some of the things that I do in terms of my current MSL team.

Additionally, I also go outside of some medical affairs and do other aspects I should say within medical affaire but aside from just working with my MSL team. I also do work a lot with our promotional review committee. Any type of material that's printed, any type of advertisement that people see in terms of a pharmaceutical company or a product, I have to approve that and make sure that any claims that are made on there, specifically scientific claims or clinical claims, that they are backed up by clinical research and that they are 100% truthful. Additionally to that, I also do advisory boards, and I put those together and quite a bit of speaking engagements too. In addition to MSL work, there's other projects I should say that I do.

John: Now, can you explain a little bit about how the medical affairs division in a pharma company is structured? Most of us, it's really a black box. When we look in, it's like, "Okay, what the heck? I know an MSL might be in there, there might be medical directors, but what are they medical directing?" Maybe you can give us an insight into either the way it's set up in your company and or other companies if you're aware of how they typically structure things.

Dr. Savi Chadha: Sure. One easy way to say it is I think most people are familiar with pharmaceutical reps. They can go to physician's offices. I think a lot of us know about them. And then pharmaceutical companies also have clinical research teams, entire research divisions.

We tell people, and what I tell people is that medical affairs would be fall sort of in between those two divisions. And what I mean by that is, oftentimes the clinicians will ask the reps questions that the reps may not have the immediate information on and may not be able to answer right away. So what they'll do is they'll say "Let me refer you to our in-house medical liaison."

And so, we in medical affairs work a lot with the current products that are already on the market, whereas clinical research oftentimes will be working with products that are still in maybe phase one or phase two trials. Those products are usually not on the market as of yet. What we can do is we provide medical support for products that have already been FDA approved and are currently being utilized by clinicians.

John: Okay. I know the MSLs work with sometimes they're called key opinion leaders. I don't know, what term do you use in your company for your context?

Dr. Savi Chadha: Across the industry, KOL, which is what you said, key opinion leader, that's the most common one. But different companies will use different terms. Some will say thought leaders, some will say stakeholders. There's a lot of different terms for it.

John: Okay. So in the way you're set up now is that anything that's been approved and is out there in the market. You definitely can have those conversations. But when it comes to having conversations about things that have not been approved by the FDA that would shift to somebody else or would that be something that the MSL could talk about as well?

Dr. Savi Chadha: That's actually a great question, and that is actually something that we MSLs can do. And because clinicians do frequently ask about the company and say, "What products do you have in the pipeline, can you tell us a little bit about them?" And the commercial division and members of the commercial team due to legislation are not allowed to say, speak on that. Whereas as in medical affairs, we can. That's what I mean when I say that we're sort of a bridge between clinical research on one hand as well as commercial on the other. We support the commercial, and yet we can also talk something about the clinical.

John: All right. Because I was a little bit confused about that. But that makes sense because it's all about education, right? And to your KOLs, it's really not promotional at all. And the FDA doesn't like it if you ever do anything promotional on that side of the equation. But you're strictly by the book. But if it's scientific, if there's evidence for it, you can discuss it from what I've heard.

Dr. Savi Chadha: That's correct. Yeah. If it's scientific, we absolutely can discuss it. Yeah.

John: You've got a little bit more responsibility it sounds like in what you're doing. You got some seniority. Tell us a little bit more about that. What other things you might be doing? If somebody is in a position that you were in five or six years ago, are there things they can do to help get that kind of experience and maybe what you're even looking forward to doing in the future?

Dr. Savi Chadha: I would say for somebody, if they're sort of a new MSL, if they're looking to advance their career, certainly being proactive it goes without saying. As in most careers, being proactive about letting your manager know that you want whatever said task that they have. Certainly stepping up and being a leader on your team is big and can be very useful to your career. And that shows initiative, that shows proactivity, and certainly obviously it shows leadership. Also if you've managed say another employee or assisted another employee in terms of interviewing them, in terms of getting onboarding, those would also certainly be very, very useful. Onboarding specifically.

John: Now, I think looking at your LinkedIn profile, I saw that you've actually taken some additional steps to become board certified. And so, what was that about? What was included in that kind of education and did it have leadership and management components to it? Or was it all focused specifically on the job that you do as an MSL?

Dr. Savi Chadha: It's been a little while since I had got my MSL certification, but from what I remember, it required a written examination that talked a lot about some of the different roles and some of the different aspects of being an MSL and what MSLs are legally allowed to say and are legally not permitted to discuss, and how we can bring about those discussions.

I remember the test had a lot to do with that in terms of how we can appropriately bring about those discussions. The certification also required a certain amount of work experience at that point in order to receive the certification. So, it was a combination of knowing, I would say the job itself and what it entails and what it does not entail. And then having an appropriate amount of work experience already under one's belt, if you will.

John: Now, I have to assume at some point some people in your position will end up getting even more into the management side of things, leadership and that sort of thing. A couple of questions about that, if you know the answer. One is, is it beneficial or less beneficial to be a physician as opposed to let's say a PharmD or an RN or a master's nurse or other specialties in terms of the leaders? Who do you see are the leaders? Is it more of the physicians or not necessarily?

Dr. Savi Chadha: It really runs the gamut, really truthfully. I look at my managers and I look at managers in other companies, and it really does run the gamut. Some are MDs, some there are DOs, lots of PharmDs, certainly. That's simply because PharmDs make out the most MSLs. So inevitably simple math there. But there are PhDs. I've had nurse practitioners who were managers who were great. It really does run the gamut. The degree is really secondary to people's both hard and soft skills once they get in.

John: I'm trying to get a little more insight into the rest of the medical affairs division. You kind of explained this. The way I look at the medical affairs is responsible for getting the new drug out into the world, I guess is how I look at it. I see these ads for assistant medical directors, medical directors, associate medical directors, executive medical directors. It's kind of nebulous terms. So is it they just have more responsibility in a bigger scope of people reporting to them? Is that basically what that means? Or is there some other key that we should be aware of?

Dr. Savi Chadha: I think you sort of touched on it. An associate director usually will be joining, maybe that's their first directorial level position. They'll be labeled as associate and maybe not have full director type responsibilities. As they gain more experience, then maybe they become a director and then maybe eventually senior director. I think you touched on it, it's really just the volume and intensity of the types of projects that they're given and trying to manage.

John: All right. I'll put you on the spot now a little bit, even more than I already have. I'm just trying to think of other advice you can give to physicians or even other clinicians because I do have some nurses and pharmacists and dentists that listen.

But in terms of preparing for that first MSL job, but then maybe even learning some things prior to be getting your first MSL job that might help you later on, move up the ranks. Any thoughts or suggestions on that?

Dr. Savi Chadha: Yeah, I would say a couple of things. I would say to really talk to their drug reps that come to their offices or their hospitals. They are an excellent, excellent resource in terms of information and in terms of just networking a segue in. They can ask their reps, if they have a medical liaison that they work with. If so, ask to speak to them, get to know them. It wouldn't hurt to maybe give them a copy of your resume if they're hiring. Who knows, maybe they're hiring. That is an easy segue that's kind of laid out right there. So, I think that's a resource that people have that's often overlooked.

John: Yeah. I've at least spoken with one person whose job came directly from talking to the drug rep when they were still clinically practicing. And then actually just within a year she became an MSL and it's like, "Okay, that worked out well, but it's not always that simple."

Dr. Savi Chadha: You're right, it certainly is not that simple. That being said, it is an avenue that's available. There are other avenues. I think that if that's an avenue that's right there, that's proverbially sitting right under the bed, if you will, you might as well take advantage of it.

John: I think part of the issue was for her, it was that some of her colleagues ended up being KOLs. So, it was built in, she became an MSL and she was calling on those very people that she used to interact with. I think the company thought this would be a good hire, but it doesn't work like that very often from what I've heard.

Dr. Savi Chadha: Yes and no. I would say it can be an asset in terms of our professional network. I can pretty confidently say that will not be the only network that she will talk to. It will certainly have to expand.

John: Yeah, and what are the odds that you're going to just happen to live in an area that happens to need an MSL who's not already working there and for that company. Still, it's worth it. Definitely you can learn a lot from your rep from what I've heard. So I'm glad you definitely second that.

Anything else that we're missing in terms of the job, applying for the job? Do you see a lot of your colleagues doing lateral moves to other companies? Or do most people try to work their way up in one company and then later on do a switch?

Dr. Savi Chadha: I would say generally I see a lot of lateral moves, primarily for a few different reasons. One, when they become an MSL, a lot of people are simply satisfied with the MSL itself. They don't have an intention or any interest in going into management, which is perfectly fine. In that case lateral moves happen more often.

Generally what I've noticed is that if somebody moves vertically, they do generally move vertically within their own company and then move laterally. So, it's not too common where I've seen somebody do both a lateral and a vertical at the same time.

John: Well, I think I've picked your brain pretty darn well here for the last half hour. Any words of encouragement you want to give to the listeners too? Because most of my listeners are a big percentage. They've been trying for a while to get a nonclinical job, or they're just getting started. They're kind of frustrated working in the hospital situation or even a clinic situation with long hours and working with EMRs and the risk of being sued. Any advice for those people who are still maybe in that early phase?

Dr. Savi Chadha: I would say don't lose heart. If you're persistent, I know it's hard because people oftentimes want to transition during very stressful times in their career, and they want out pretty quickly. The transition does take time. Most people I've talked to, it didn't happen right away. It takes them months, sometimes years. It's just patience, persistence, and fortitude. Don't personalize rejection, have thick skin to work through it I would say. I know it's hard. I know it's not easy. I know that the very reason they want to transition is because they're stressed out at their current job but it does take some time regardless.

John: I think that's good advice because when we're in a big hurry sometimes we make mistakes that end up being worse than the solution that we would've gathered if we just gave it some time and really figured out what we wanted to do instead of run away from something. So, that is definitely excellent advice.

All right, Savi, this has been really good. It's been great to catch up with you and we'll put it on the books to get back together in five years.

Dr. Savi Chadha: Thank you for having me.

John: I really appreciate the time you've taken to come in and share all that. Best of luck, continued luck and success in your work in pharma. It sounds really good. So with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Savi Chadha: Thank you so much. I appreciate it, John. Thank you again for having me.

John: You're welcome. Bye-bye.

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The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Develop These Essential Skills to Be a Visionary Medical Affairs Leader – 315 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Months 2 Through 4

In this solo episode, John explains how to embrace Stage 2 of the 12-Month Roadmap. It is a plan he originally designed to guide you from full-time clinical practice to chief medical officer of a hospital.

However, this comprehensive roadmap can also be adapted to other nonclinical roles, in industries such as pharma, consulting, insurance, education, and health system management.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Navigating Your Nonclinical Career Path: A 12-Month Roadmap

Welcome back, fellow explorers! As we move ahead on our nonclinical career journey, remember that while this roadmap spans 12 months, the timing can vary based on the time you can commit and competing commitments.

Flexibility is key. Our stages overlap, and some might warrant revisiting. Do you lean towards pharma's diverse roles or health systems' intricate landscape? Perhaps insurance or benefit management intrigues you. Focusing on proven strategies will guide your way.

If you're unsure, don't fret. As we venture into Stage 2 (months 2-4), brace yourself for illuminating insights and useful tools.

Navigating Stage Two: Building Networks and Enhancing Credentials

As you embrace Stage 2, you'll seamlessly integrate into professional networks, expand your connections, and explore new certifications or degrees.

This phase is a focused and engaging three-month process, marked by strategic steps that gradually propel you toward your nonclinical career goals.

1. Join a Professional Organization

2. Start Networking

3. Explore Certifications and Degrees

Summary

During this discussion, John highlights valuable resources to aid your journey. Access a comprehensive list of nonclinical jobs at 70 Nonclinical and Nontraditional Careers.  And gain insights into the services of professional organizations in this resource: Professional Organizations for Nonclinical Careers. Your nonclinical career path is just a step away.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Month One of the 12 Month Roadmap to a New Career – 269
• FREE List of 70 Nonclinical and Unconventional Careers for Physicians
• Professional Organizations Comparison Table Download
• How to Use a Professional Organization on the Road to a New Career – 272
• Discover Your First Nonclinical Job Even If You Don’t Know Where to Start – 200
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 312

Embrace Stage 2 of the 12 Month Roadmap to a New Career

John: All right nonclinical nation, let's talk about stage 2 of the 12 month roadmap. This is a roadmap to any nonclinical career. It probably would apply to applying for clinical careers, but there's some things that are very different. This one is specifically for nonclinical jobs.

I did address stage one or phase one, which is really month one, back in a podcast episode. I think it was October or November of 2022, so it wasn't that long ago, but I've been remiss in not getting to step two or phase two.

Now, I want to tell you that the 12 months is somewhat arbitrary. With effort, the process could probably be accomplished much quicker. But on the other hand, 12 months is a nice round number and it takes into account the need to give up maybe up to six months' notice for some employment contracts for you to leave. It might be 90 days, might be one 20 or maybe even six months or longer. That kind of fits in with the 12 month timeframe.

Today I'm going to talk about, like I said, stage two, which covers months two through four of the process. Now, everything I'm going to discuss today have been discussed in other podcast episodes and sometimes other videos and courses. But I'm putting this course together in nice bite-sized pieces so that you can actually work along with the steps if you'd like. I'll put a link to the episode where we covered step one or phase one.

With that, remember too that the stages do overlap and in some cases may need to be repeated, depending on what's happening at that stage. I'll remind you that stage one included basically four tasks. Overcoming limiting beliefs, myths and misconceptions. Reviewing job descriptions more as a learning process than actually for application. Identifying mentors and starting to engage with the mentors. And then setting up your initial LinkedIn profile. It doesn't have to be complete.

However, now we're moving into stage two. You've done all that and stage two includes identifying and joining appropriate professional organizations, growing and accessing your network and exploring degrees and certifications. Let's get to my presentation right now and dig into those topics.

The other prerequisite when starting this 12 month roadmap is that you already have some idea at least what industry you want to pursue. In other words, do you want to do something in pharma? You could select that single industry because it has dozens of different types of jobs, and many of them are entry level. Or do you want to do something in health systems and hospitals? Do you want to do something in insurance company and on the benefit management side like UM or do you want to pick two or three of those and dig into it a little bit before narrowing it down? You can do that, but you have to have some idea.

If you start this process with absolutely no idea, you need to do a little bit of pre-work, I guess is what I would call it, by just learning a little bit about some of these jobs. And then you can get into more detail and narrow it down during this 12 month process.

Maybe just to give you an overview of the entire process. I've talked about stage one. Stage two we'll talk about today includes things like joining a professional organization, starting more intensive networking and exploring certificates and degrees or just coursework.

Stage three, you're going to start really searching job listings, access some of the courses you may have identified, perhaps pursue that certificate. There are certificates you can get in 10, 15, 16 weeks, whatever, three months that can help you in your job search. You can be continuing to consult regularly with your mentor, and then you can really focus on networking and finding sponsors, which I'm using that term means somebody at a company or at a recruiter's office who will stand up for you, will look at your resume and will help facilitate your transition.

And then stage four, we're getting really into the nitty gritty, resume, writing, creating your template and a cover letter that you'll customize. Update your LinkedIn profile so it really is on target. And then start making some phone calls to employers and HR departments and recruiters.

And then the next stage five is where you are selecting job opportunities. You're doing really heavy research on the places where you've been asked to do at least an introductory visit, probably online screening call, really customizing your cover letter and resume, preparing for telephone interviews and face-to-face interviews, attending the interview and then following up. And then really the sixth stage is, either start the new job or repeat the process, go to the beginning and starting over if let's say you've had two or three or four interviews and they haven't gone anywhere. That's the overview.

But let's get back to stage two here. We're really serious about moving into a nonclinical career. There are things that are just different when you're looking at a nonclinical career. That's why although there's probably parallels in maybe applying for a new job as a clinician, this would apply to physicians, nurses and anybody really who's a licensed clinician. There's a lot of similarities partly because what drives us away from clinical care and taking care of patients is pretty much the same in terms of many of us are driven to that by being overworked, being underappreciated, not really being considerate of our time and our work-life balance. Trying to keep our salaries to a minimum even though we're all extremely well educated and committed people that are doing these jobs. A lot of this applies to really anybody in healthcare making the change.

What I've put in stage two, it's some homework. And I make this about a three month process because this takes time. Meeting with a mentor, you can do that in 15 minutes, 30 minutes, and once a month really. You shouldn't overburden a mentor. Like I say, that comes in the next stage, really, although you should be doing that all along. But doing the steps in stage two do require some effort and some focus and some time.

The three major steps that I've included in that phase to try and really get you up to speed is number one, to join a professional organization, or two or three. Number two, to start networking in earnest. And then number three is explore certifications and degrees. Because by the time you get done with your month one, kind of looking through those job descriptions and looking at these organizations and learning more about a potential industry, you're going to find that there may or may not be requirements for some kind of certification and a degree or even just taking some courses.

Let's go through each of these separately. And again, I'm probably going longer than I want to, but let's just kind of go through this quickly and see what we can do. And I have resources for you too. That's the only reason I wanted to bring this up today. Many of you follow my podcast or been to my website and you probably already have these, but I have some pretty useful resources.

Joining a professional organization. Let's say that you've gone through the first phase, you've narrowed it down to an industry or two, and now maybe you even narrowed it down to a job within that industry. In hospital management, there's a pretty standard procedure. You do part-time work as a physician advisor, you might start doing part-time work as a medical director, either of a service line or quality improvement or CDI or informatics, something like that.

And then if you're really serious, you may move into a full-time position as a medical director. And in some organizations that are big, you might become a senior medical director or executive medical director or something like that. In pharma, there are different jobs in different divisions that we talk about. And there are organizations actually for each division in a sense, or at least there's more than one organization if you're working in pharma.

That brings me to the handout I was going to mention. Most people that I know are following me have already gotten the handout on 70 nonclinical and unconventional careers for a physician. That one is a basic one that has 70 plus different jobs by title described, but I mentioned it here, under joining a professional organization because it actually lists a resource for each of those jobs. And the resource is oftentimes a society or an association. And you can find that if you go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/70jobs.

But I have another handout that is not as well known, and I don't push it that often. And the thing about this handout is it is a list of professional organizations for nonclinical careers. The nice thing about this handout is that it tells you some of the factors for each of these associations or professional organizations. And since we're also talking about exploring certifications and degrees, some of these organizations have some type of certification or degree.

But let me mention just before I get into that, what the organizations are for some of the more common nonclinical positions. If you're thinking about looking at CDI, you would probably want to look at either the American Academy of Professional Coders or the Association of Clinical Documentation Integrity Specialists. Those are the two that can really help you prep and get ready to apply for a job in utilization management and or clinical documentation improvement or both, because the billing and the coding go hand in hand.

If you can become an expert in billing and or coding or understand how to use protocols for doing benefits management, meaning approving or not approving certain requests for procedures or for meds, then that would be really helpful. If you're looking for a job in pharma and you're thinking about becoming a medical science liaison, there is the MSL society, which is msls.com. If you are looking for a job in public health with the government, the Society for Healthcare Epidemiology of America might be a good one to take a look at.

You can get this list, which I don't know what we've got here, 5, 10, 15 or about 20 organizations more or less, that you can access by going to nonclinicalphysicians.com/polist. That's professional organizations list. It's nonclinicalphysicians.com/polist. And it'll also show you the answer to the question, the third part of this particular step in my model, and it lists which of those organizations have certification and or certificate programs.

It also lists things like is there formal mentorship? Do they have recorded courses, do they have live courses? Do they have a newsletter? Do they have a community of peers? All these questions are answered. Yes, there's a few that, depending on what we're talking about, they might not offer, but a well-developed and mature professional organization typically has all of those things.

For example, there is certificate programs through the American Academy of Insurance and Medicine, the American Academy of Professional Coders, the American Association for Physician Leadership, the AAPL, which is the major organization, the organization, if you're working to become a leader in almost any industry, but particularly in hospital and health systems or in pharma or in the insurance company. Things like that.

Again, if you go to that nonclinicalphysicians.com/polist, it'll give you all that information on one page and will help you to figure out whether you should pursue certification or even a degree. I usually don't promote pushing for a degree very often because you can get the degree after you're already in your first nonclinical job and it'll be more pertinent anyway to what you're doing. Let's say you decide to go to the AAPL and try to get the CPE, or you try to get an MMM from a university which is a master in medical management or whatever.

And those are relatively long, those take years to accomplish, but you can do shorter certifications, even shorter degrees, and they'll be much more applicable to what you're doing if you start doing those once you've already got your first nonclinical position. And on top of that, you will be able to get the employer to sometimes pay for that.

And the other big thing in this section is to start networking. Networking means really talking to people. And the one caveat I want to give to networking when you start doing that is, if at all possible, you want to find out if there's something you can do for your mentor, if not initially, at least along the way. In other words, it's not rude, but it's too lopsided just to look for someone that's going to teach you for free. Most mentors will mentor for free physicians, nurses, we've always done that with students.

And so, just keep that in mind. Try and connect to let's say a mentor that you don't know through someone that you do know. You can do a lot of research on LinkedIn. You can start to grow your network on LinkedIn. And on LinkedIn most people will accept almost any request to connect if it's from at least a second degree or particularly if you have an introduction from somebody else.

And then on Doximity, it's fantastic for finding people from your med school class. Remember too, that med school alumni are good. Same thing with residency. You can look for your residency class. You may have kept in touch with those people. But if you can look for your residency alumni, it really expands and you just put something out there saying, "Hey, I'm getting tired of practice and thinking of a nonclinical job." And you might be able to tell on both LinkedIn and or Doximity if they're doing one. If not, then you can always just send the note out and ask them about it and say, "Hey, contact me if you're doing a nonclinical job. I just like to know what you're doing as they start this process."

And sometimes if we're working in a hospital or in a clinic and we find that some of our colleagues have already moved away, it's sometimes good to look them up, reach out to them if you can't tell from their LinkedIn profile what they're doing and say, "Hey, you left here. Are you still practicing or are you doing something nonclinical? Or are you doing a combination of both?" And that can be very helpful.

I think that's all I want to say about the 12 month roadmap to a new career today. I hope you found that useful. I did mention some resources during the discussion where you can get a list of nonclinical jobs. That one's at nonclinicalphysicians.com/70jobs. And a list of professional organizations and their benefits, which can be downloaded from nonclinicalphysicians.com/polist.

You can find those links and others related to today's presentation at nonclinicalphysicians.com/embrace-stage-2.

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The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

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The post Embrace Stage 2 of the 12 Month Roadmap to a New Career – 312 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

What I've Learned from My Guests

In this solo episode, John explains why landing your first pharma industry job may be easier than you think.

In a recent webinar, a valuable discussion unfolded, shedding light on the allure of Pharma jobs: unveiling their attractiveness, potential for higher income than clinical work, and offering effective tactics to secure your first job in the industry. Today, John presents an excerpt from that very presentation, offering you valuable insights and guidance.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Compelling Advantages of Nonclinical Pharma Careers

Among the various nonclinical job options (consulting, hospital and health systems, pharma, medical writing, governmental roles, and education) pharma emerges as an attractive industry. It represents a significant portion of the United States healthcare spending, possibly more than 10%. 

Here is a summary of the features that make the Pharma Industry so attractive to clinicians:

1. Huge Industry: Pharma constitutes a significant portion of healthcare spending. And it provides ample opportunities for diverse roles and job types tailored to individual interests.

2. Entry-Level Opportunities: Transitioning from clinical practice to pharma offers a fresh start. And it leverages your expertise and experience while embarking on a new career trajectory.

3. Career Advancement: Pharma offers growth and advancement prospects. Job options range from entry-level positions to leadership roles, welcoming physicians of varying backgrounds and experiences.

4. Status and Leadership: Physicians are valued for their unique skills and expertise. Many take on managerial and leadership roles due to their respected status.

5. Work-Life Balance: Nonclinical roles in pharma generally promote work-life balance. They offer predictable working hours and generally avoid the demanding schedules of clinical practice.

6. Performance-Driven Compensation: Unlike volume-based clinical work, pharma compensation is based on job performance and the ability to increase revenues or reduce costs.

Exploring Opportunities and Roles in Pharma Companies

Pharma companies have various divisions, including finance, sales, marketing, manufacturing, human resources, and legal and regulatory. However, physicians aiming for nonclinical roles often find opportunities in research and development (R&D) and medical affairs, particularly in clinical development involving human trials.

Medical affairs offer a broad range of roles, while safety and pharmacovigilance open up numerous job prospects for physicians. Contract research organizations (CROs) are vital in supporting pharma companies by providing flexible employment options and handling various tasks, such as clinical design, decentralized trials, medical writing, and safety management for multiple pharmaceutical clients.

Choosing between direct employment at pharma companies and CROs depends on individual preferences and circumstances, with both options offering distinct advantages. For physicians seeking a swift entry into the pharmaceutical world or proximity to their current location, CROs present an accessible and attractive alternative to explore.

Summary

By exploring nonclinical opportunities in the pharmaceutical industry, physicians can embark on fulfilling career paths that cater to their interests, skills, and desire for a more balanced professional life. Many physicians are surprised to find that the obstacles to securing a job in the pharma industry are not as high as perceived.

This is evident through the experiences of the colleagues John mentioned with no prior pharma experience. Pharma companies highly value physicians' capacity to acquire new skills and their sincere dedication and enthusiasm.

The full webinar describes four other physicians' journeys, along with tactics for a successful career shift. For those interested in exploring more about pharma industry jobs, the complete one-hour recording can be accessed at The Wonderful World of Nonclinical Pharma Industry Jobs.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Making Your Way to a Rewarding Career in Clinical Development – 308
• Medical Science Liaison Is Still a Fantastic Pharma Job – 261
• How Does a Physician Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job? – 214
• Use These Simple Tactics to Land a Fantastic First Pharma Job – 209
• Highlight These 5 Experiences to Land Your First Pharma Job – 242
• How to Find a Job in Pharma That You Love – 184
• The Wonderful World of Pharma Industry Jobs Webinar
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 311

Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think

John: My goal today is that when we're done, you'll be able to describe why you're qualified for a pharma job, whether you're licensed or not licensed, whether you have any experience or not, and so forth.

The next thing I want you to understand and be able to verbalize is to list the reasons why you'll earn more in pharma job than you would in most clinical jobs eventually. That's not on day one necessarily, but in actual fact, you'll probably earn more in salary doing something in pharma than you will in your clinical job. And then the third is that you'll be able to implement strategies for landing your first nonclinical pharmaceutical industry job.

Now, when I talk about nonclinical jobs, there's at least nine major industries. You've got consulting, you've got hospital and health systems, you've got pharma, you've got medical writing, there's a bunch of governmental jobs, there's educational jobs.

But why pharma? Basically pharma is a huge industry. It makes up and consumes about 10% of the healthcare dollars in the United States, at least last I checked. It might be more now, honestly, because I have not seen so much drug advertising in my life since the pandemic. Maybe it's more than 10 or 11 or 12%. It's huge.

And there's a lot of job types in pharma. Depending on your interests, you're probably going to be able to find a job in pharma, unless you want something where you're 100% remote working from home. UM for insurance companies, you can do that. Probably not going to find a pharma job where you can do that, although there are some jobs where you can do some remote work.

The other thing is that this is an entry level job for us. When we're physicians and we're looking to go into pharma, for most of us, we haven't done anything in pharma in the past. So, we are starting from the bottom, but obviously it's at the peak of our career wherever we are. We're taking everything we've learned and we're going to apply it to that new job. But in stepping into that new job, you're just beginning. And so, there's a lot of steps you can still go through if you decide to look for advancement.

And for physicians, there are jobs in pharma for those that have 10, 12 years of experience, have multiple specialties, MBA and all that kind of thing. To physicians who don't have a license and they haven't done a residency. There are plenty of jobs for those and everything in between.

The other thing is that your status will grow over time, meaning that you will move up. It's natural because you're working on a multidisciplinary team, and there are some things only physicians can do in pharma. And on top of that, people look to physicians as leaders and managers. And so, there's always progress and more status and more responsibility if that's what you want.

And then the other thing is there's work-life balance. There's no such thing really as a 60 or 70 hour a week job in pharma. There might be times when you have to do something like that, depending on the level that you're at and what your role is. But typically you're going to work 40, 45 hours a week in almost any of these jobs.

And the way that you earn your money for the most part is just by seeing patients and doing procedures. It's completely volume driven. If you want to say, "Hey, I want to increase my income by 50%, what does that mean?" You got to see 50% more patients, do 50% more procedures or a combination of the two. Basically what you're saying is you have to increase your hours unless you can get a little more efficient. But mostly efficiencies are what they are.

The EMRs don't seem to be getting any easier. And so, you're locked in, you're basically locked in for the next 15, 20, 25 years to whatever you're doing. And if you want to try and make a little more money and get some bills paid off ahead of time or some loans, then that just means you got to not have time with your family, not see your kids and get burnt out. And so, that's the big difference between almost every nonclinical job and being a practicing physician.

So, let's talk about pharma. You have to have an understanding of pharma. We don't really get a good understanding in training. Yes, we hear about phase 1, 2, 3 studies, phase 4, post release, monitoring and patient safety and maybe drug safety, medication safety.

But do we really know how a pharma company works? Do we know how it's set up? I want to spend maybe five or 10 minutes the most, just so you understand, because then you'll understand where your options are for a job in pharma. And if you haven't really explored this before, then this is going to be important. You need to figure out where to go, what direction to take, because you can't really learn about everything in pharma in a short period of time. It helps if you understand it, and you can narrow it down.

There are usually about I'll say seven major divisions in almost any large pharma company. I'll start with the ones that you are not going to work in. Finance is huge. Sales and marketing, huge. Manufacturing, so far no physicians involved. Human resources, no physicians. Legal and regulatory. Well, if you're a MD/JD that might be an option. You can do that, but probably not.

Really it boils down to two major divisions and sometimes safety is broken out. But basically you've got research and development and medical affairs. There are obviously multiple. But to take it to the next step, the main departments within those major divisions are three, but might be four if you include one. One is regulatory. We don't do much in regulatory unless that's where they maybe will employ technical, medical writers that help translate the medical legal stuff into the package inserts and things like that.

But the big one is clinical development. Clinical development is kind of a piece of R&D. Because research and development can include preclinical research and development and bench work and things like that, animal studies. But once you get into human trials, now you're into clinical development. There are people in there, and I'll talk about them in a minute.

And then you've got medical affairs, which is another big massive area with different kinds of jobs. And I'll talk about the purpose of that. And then safety and pharmacovigilance, which is another area where there are a lot of jobs for physicians.

Now, there's one big thing, one big player in pharma that I haven't talked about. What about a CRO? What is a CRO? It used to be a contract research organization. Now when you start looking at contract research organizations or CROs that way, you'll come up often with a clinical resource organization.

At this point, I think they basically are very similar, if not the same. When I see something that's a CRO, it's usually smaller and focused on just two, three or four major activities of a pharma company. When I get into clinical research organizations, they seem to be bigger.

But the reason I bring up a CRO is because they hire a lot of these jobs, which support the pharma companies. Think about it this way. Pharma companies are like hot and cold. In other words, they spend years and years. I don't know how many years, it takes at least some eight to 10 years to bring a new drug to market. They spent all this time getting ready to release it, and then it's time to release it.

And leading up to that for about a year and then after it for about a year, there's a lot of activity that wasn't going on. And so, rather than hire a bunch of new people, have worked them for nine months, a year, two years and then firing all of them, they hire people from CROs. And because CROs serve multiple clients, multiple pharma companies, they can balance things out and try and maintain a steady crew of people that have long-term longevity with the CRO, but not with the pharma company.

Now, when they hire you, you work for the CRO, but there are relationships with pharma companies where you're simply a contract person. You may be someone who can be contracted and then hired, or they may actually do the hiring for the pharma company and you're actually employed by them. So it can work in different ways. Parexel, PRA Health, ICON, some of you may have heard of these. PPD. These are common CROs.

Everything from clinical design to actually running the studies, decentralized clinical trials across the country, medical writing, and then they help with clinical monitoring. They help with safety, they help with biostatistics, help with managing and handling patients. They'll do almost anything that a pharma company needs to do on a contract basis.

The advantage to this for you is that it's easier to find employment with a CRO than directly with a pharma company. Now if you're someone who has a master's degree in medical research and you've done studies as an undergrad or while you were in med school, you've got a master's degree in some related area, you could probably start with just applying it at pharmaceutical companies and maybe you already have contacts with them, which would be great, and there's no harm in doing that.

But at the same time, if you're someone who doesn't have any of those things, doesn't really have an obvious segue into pharma, but you're still interested in pharmacology, you still have managing drugs, and you have other interests, you like the lifestyle. You've read some of the information about the FDA and about clinical trials, you love looking through studies. Then a way to short circuit or shorten the process is to look at CROs as an option. And you should look at both really. And particularly if you're in a location where you don't want to travel or you don't want to move to another city or something for a job, you should look at both, see which pharma companies are nearby, which CROs are nearby.

Let's go through each of these departments and just quickly kind of give you an idea of what they do. Clinical development, pretty straightforward. These are the kind of jobs you'll see when you're looking on LinkedIn or Indeed and other places. Actually, the three places you should look for jobs when you really start looking and actually, if you're interested, you should start looking at job descriptions now, not because you're ready to apply, but you need to know what are the requirements, what's mandatory, what's nice to have, what's the language, what lingo comes up over and over that maybe you've not heard before because then it'll point you in the direction of things you need to learn.

But these are terms used in the clinical development part of pharma. Principal investigator, clinical researcher, medical director, medical monitor, and clinical research associate. There's others but if you see those kinds of terms, then you're probably talking about a clinical development job.

Medical director is pretty generic and you're going to find that in all divisions where there are physicians involved. Medical affairs, huge part of the company. Like I say, that's the company that has to take this new drug, and even before it has been finally approved by the FDA, get ready to get it out into the world, I guess is how I put it. And that includes everything from education and logistics and getting it delivered and advertising and marketing and all those things. There are people in that division or department that do those things. So, you might see a CMO, you might see a senior medical director, medical director, associate medical director.

And the other big one, which is very attractive to people who are getting started in pharma, is a medical science liaison. Now, if you get into safety or pharmacovigilance, it's the same thing. You can have medical advisors there a little more common, medical director, medical writers there as well as possibly the regulatory. And then safety scientists.

I bring up safety scientists because in one of the scenarios I'm going to talk about in a minute, if you're looking for a job in safety or pharmacovigilance, which are basically synonyms, different companies use different terms, and you do not have a license, you do not have a residency or board certification. The extent of your patient contact is basically in medical school. Then sometimes you can get a job as a safety scientist, which I'm going to explain in detail later. Notice medical is not in that term.

All right. Now I want to talk a little bit about compensation. It kind of gets back to what I was talking about under the objectives and when I made the statement about potential income. I don't have salary surveys for all of these different areas. It'd be almost impossible to do a salary survey for something let's say like a medical director in medical affairs because there's different medical directors over different areas.

There's a lot written about medical science liaisons. If you look up MSL or medical science liaison annual salary, it will pop right up and they do it every year. And the 2022 is the one I'm referencing here. They probably will publish the 2023 if they continue to do what they've been doing in early 2024.

But let me just say a little bit about salaries. A medical science liaison is probably like a medical monitor or something along those lines. Let's say even an assistant medical director. It could be down in the $180,000, that region. I think even medical science liaisons can sometimes start at $160,000. But you have to understand that a medical science liaison can be a physician, can be a PA, can be an NP, can be a PharmD. It's even possible sometimes they'll call some that's an MSL. That's a kind of master's or maybe even a bachelor's degree.

But a physician MSL is not the same obviously as a nurse MSL. And so the physicians get higher pay closer to $180,000 and the salaries go up from year one at about $160,000 let's say for the non-physicians and $170,000 for the physicians up to $220,000, $230,000 after 10 years. Now, most physicians in that period of time will have moved up the ladder, but just gives you an idea about jobs.

The other thing I found in talking with lots of physicians who have converted from clinical to nonclinical or non-traditional jobs is that sometimes they have to take a little bit of a hit. But when you compare apples to apples, if you're working 65 hours a week and getting paid, I don't know, $230,000 in a family practice clinic or something, and you become an MSL at $190,000, but you're working 45 hours a week, you can kind of do the math.

And then the other thing you can realize there is that the lifestyle is better because you have better work-life balance, as I said at the beginning. And you have absolutely no risk of being sued. I should add that to the beginning of this presentation on a comparison. If you work for pharma and other nonclinical jobs for the most part, you'll never be sued. It'd be one in a million. When you're a physician, it's more like at least 50% to 80%, depending, maybe a 100% in some specialties. So, you got to compare apples to apples.

But the other thing is, even if you do take a little dip, like I say, you'll very quickly move up in experience. You will be able to do a lateral move if you like, once you are experienced for a year or two. Because now you'll be able to apply for those jobs where they're looking for the experience and they're paying more or you'll move up in terms of promotions.

Physicians are usually one of the first ones that get promoted to the next job if they want to, if they want to take on more responsibility. But still, the hours are the same, the responsibility is different. It's maybe more, but you drop off the things that you don't need to do any longer. And so, you're still talking about a 40 or 50 hour job even as you move up the ranks.

Now let's get into the strategies to land your first job. I put it this way because that's really the crux of this whole thing. Once you've landed your first job in pharma or pretty much any other nonclinical field, that's where the biggest barrier is. That's the biggest challenge. And so, if you can get that first job, then you can A) settle in, enjoy your lifestyle, get to know your colleagues, learn what you're doing, look around, see if you like that job, and then decide, "Okay, I got some breathing room now. I can think about what do I need to do to advance, what do I need to do to get more of a salary?"

So, let's talk about some of those strategies now and break it down. And the way I'm going to do that is I'm going to use examples of people I've personally spoken with and the way that they did it.

There was a medical school grad from India and he came to the States, he passed his USMLE 1 and 2. Those are the exams you have to take. And then he decided he did not want to apply to a residency. He thought "I just don't want to go back and do three years of more work, get paid less than I really might be able to get paid doing something else." And he was really interested in pharmacology and thought strongly about getting a job in pharma.

Now, in the meantime, he did what a lot of foreign medical grads do is they keep busy doing things in the clinical setting. He started looking around and he spent a lot of time learning about the language, the vernacular in the safety field in pharma. He got involved in things. He learned a lot about patient care working as a doctor assistant. He knew about the EMR. He understood how quality in the outpatient setting was being assessed. I think he took some courses. He didn't get an advanced degree of any sort, and then he was able to, because he actually already met the requirements for a pharmacovigilance scientist because that's a master's level or a bachelor's level position. It doesn't mean he couldn't get paid more because he had the MD but a lot of the pharma positions are eligible for others than physicians.

And so, even if you don't have residency, a physician in pharma is usually at some level equivalent to a PharmD or a PhD. It's a simple way to think of it. And so, if they're willing to hire let's say a master's degree level for a pharmacovigilance scientist, they're going to do an MD as well.

But it's not going to get him at the salary that he wanted. He did that for a couple of years and then he started looking, he looked internally and he looked externally. And even though he only had two or three years of experience, he was able to convince another company to hire him on as associate medical director. And now if there's medical in the term most of the time except for medical science liaison, which includes those other specialties in other fields, but most of the time if it's associate medical director, medical director, executive medical director, that means it's a physician.

So, that's what he got. He got basically a job that most of the time would require at least five or six years of clinical experience after medical school. But he did it because he was able to start at that slightly lower position and then move up. Then I recently interviewed someone who went from family medicine to a primary investigator, which really intrigued me because when I thought of a primary investigator for some of these studies, I was thinking, "Okay, in my mind, the primary investigator is someone who comes up with the purpose of a study. They're interested in some topic. They say, okay, we need to do a study. We can use this drug or something that already exists and I'm going to design the study."

But it's not what a primary investigator is in a CRO or in most pharma companies. That would be a clinical researcher, although sometimes they will also be called a PI. But a PI, the way this physician is using it in this job is someone who's at a site and manages that site for that study.

The drug companies when they're trying to get a drug approved once they get to stage two and three, they need like 15,000 patients, I think. Something like that. It's an enormous number. And so, they've done it at multiple sites and they got to recruit to certain type of patients and randomize them and do that whole thing.

And that's done usually at a local clinical site, whether it's academic or it's a large group that's doing some kind of outpatient study. And so, they need people to basically take care of everything at that site, make sure all the protocols are followed, make sure the safety measurements are there. They may have to look at a patient if there's a question, should just be an inclusion or excluded. They'll look at paperwork or they'll actually physically look at the patient.

So, what she did, she was doing family medicine originally. She got a little frustrated doing just a broad family medicine. And so, she then started to add obesity medicine to her clinic where she was working. She was with a group though, she wasn't solo or anything like that. And after the pandemic, she was getting really burnt out and frustrated with that. So she decided to become a health coach.

And one of the things she did as part of that was she hired a business coach for herself. And so, she started to get coaching about how to create this business as a health coach, health advisor, how to set up a website, how to do your finances, how to understand accounting, how to manage things.

And one of the things they taught her was how to market both herself and her business. She used that to later on market herself and her profile LinkedIn to attract recruiters looking for these primary investigators. And she got in touch with a recruiter and basically that was it. It didn't take that much. I think the recruiter actually reached out to her, saw that she had these skills and a lot of it was just management and leadership skills plus her medical.

And so, she became a primary investigator. They trained her how to do that at the site where she's working or the company she's working for. It is a CRO. But she's put there and she may or may not end up working directly for the company. She doesn't really care at this point because her pay is good and her lifestyle's great and she's happy.

I think the barrier to getting an a pharma job is a lot lower than many of us have thought because all the guests I've had other than maybe one PhD and let's say maybe one who did have, definitely it was someone like Dr. Nerissa Kreher who's got a master's degree in clinical research. They didn't have any experience, but they had other experiences that demonstrated the skills.

And we're physicians, we can pretty much learn anything we put our mind to. They know that. They just want to make sure you're committed and you're not just doing the job or taking the job because you're just burnt out and you'll do anything. You need someone who wants to be in pharma.

Well, that's all we have time for today. During the complete presentation, I described the process that four other physicians followed during their pivot from clinical work to a pharma position. Then I summarize the other tactics to use during a career shift and share several free resources that can be obtained to help accelerate your pivot.

If you want to learn more about why landing your first pharma industry job is easier than you think, then check out the complete one hour recording of the wonderful world of nonclinical pharma careers at this link, nonclinicalphysicians.com/pharmajobs. That's all one word, nonclinicalphysicians.com/pharmajobs.

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The post Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.