The Second Annual Summit is Here – 348

In today's episode, John provides an overview of this year's Summit designed to make your clinical practice great or move on to a better alternative.

With a lineup of expert speakers and a comprehensive agenda, the Summit aims to equip attendees with actionable strategies for improving job satisfaction and exploring nonclinical opportunities.

The second annual Nonclinical Career Summit runs this week. It’s not entirely nonclinical in its scope, however. We have several presentations about starting and running a cash-based private practice. It features twelve experts who share inspirational messages and valuable know-how live over three nights.

It's called Clinical Practice: Make It Great or Move On

And beyond building your cash-based practice, our speakers will show you how to create an asset that can be sold later. Other experts will discuss MedSpas, Infusion Lounges, and other cash-only businesses, using Real Estate to diversify your income and assets, and several nonclinical side gigs including Expert Witness and Medical-Legal Prelitigation Consulting, Medical Affairs Regulatory Consulting, and remote SSDI Application Reviewer.

To learn more check it out at nonclinicalcareersummit.com. Remember that there is NO cost to attend the live event. And if you can’t participate in the Summit, you can purchase the All Access Pass videos (only $39 until April 16, 2024, when the price increases to $79).

Our Episode Sponsor

Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.”

If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat.

Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

Trends in Addressing Physician Burnout

Physicians have faced increasing stress and burnout in recent years due to corporate employment structures in the healthcare industry. There are several basic approaches to preventing these common consequences of clinical practice.

1. Aggressive Contract Negotiation: Physicians are placing a greater emphasis on negotiating employment contracts to safeguard against burnout inherent in corporate settings. While not discussed extensively in the summit, this strategy is crucial for those considering employment.
2. Identifying Root Causes of Dissatisfaction: Physicians are focusing on identifying and addressing the underlying causes of dissatisfaction, whether it's related to the nature of their vocation, organizational policies, or interpersonal dynamics. Analyzing these factors allows for targeted solutions to alleviate stress and improve job satisfaction.

Highlights of the NonClinical Career Summit

The Nonclinical Career Summit starting on April 16th features a lineup of expert speakers covering various aspects of nonclinical career options for physicians. Here's a sneak peek at what attendees can expect:

1. Speaker Sessions Overview: The Summit will host twelve live presentations, spanning topics from evaluating the need to leave clinical medicine to exploring diverse career paths outside traditional practice settings. Each session offers actionable insights and practical advice tailored to physicians and other clinicians seeking alternative career paths.
2. Logistics and Registration Details: The Summit will run over three consecutive evenings, starting on April 16th, with sessions starting at 7 p.m. Eastern Time. Live attendance is free, but registration is required to access the sessions. Attendees can opt for the All Access Pass for $39, providing access to session recordings and bonuses.

Summary

This week's podcast previews the 2nd Annual Nonclinical Summit featuring 12 expert speakers addressing ways to create a clinical practice outside of the corporate style of healthcare and nonclinical career options. Attendees are encouraged to register early to secure their spot and gain access to valuable resources aimed at supporting career transitions and enhancing job satisfaction.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Reserve Your Free Spot at the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit
• Information about the Nonclinical Career Summit
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Episode 348 Transcript

Over the past few years, I've noticed that there is a backlash to the increasing stress and burnout in physicians resulting from employment by large corporations. It seems like the burnout's getting worse and it's related to being employed, losing their autonomy, and really working in that sort of healthcare industrial complex, seeing as many patients as you can in every hour. So in response to that, I think physicians have begun to implement various strategies to prevent or address the burnout, the stress, and the dissatisfaction that's coming.

So these are some of the four trends that I have seen. It's not everything, but I see these as something that's getting more and more common. So first is a bigger emphasis on aggressively negotiating employment contracts.

After all, if you understand that employment leads to dissatisfaction and burnout, and maybe if you've been through it once already, to some extent, you should be able to address the cause of that burnout by building safeguards into your contract. We won't be addressing that in this summit, but it is something I've noticed, and you can take a listen to my interview with Ethan Encana, who's an MBA slash JD, which was posted in February 13th of this year. So if you listen to that, we'll be talking a lot about trying to protect yourself from the things that cause your burnout in your contracts, if you decide to go with the employment route.

Now let's move on to the next one, which is more in keeping with what I want to talk about today. And that is a big thing that physicians are focusing on now, and people are teaching about is finding, identifying, and somehow preventing the root causes of your dissatisfaction and addressing it in new ways. So is it your vocation itself? Is it the practice of medicine? Or is it the organization you're working for and their policies and procedures? Maybe they don't staff properly.

Is it the boss that you report to that's causing your stress and anxiety? Sometimes a fierce conversation can solve the problem. Sometimes moving to a different clinic or hospital will work, but you need to spend the time really analyzing what's, what, what it is about the work that's making things worse. And is it something that you can resolve either in the current situation or at a future one? So that's something we don't talk a lot about on the podcast, although I have had one of our summit speakers, Dyke Drummond, on the podcast to talk about that, but that was several years ago.

Number three is the physicians are implementing new or updated practice models that put more control in the physician's hands. Things such as direct primary care, concierge medicine, and other forms of cash only medical businesses. And this can solve the problem in two ways.

Number one, a lot of times doing that requires you to be in your own practice. So you're starting your own business. So you're not working for someone.

Doesn't mean it's not busy. Doesn't mean it's not challenging, but now you have that autonomy and you're in control. And the other reason is that it's oftentimes the insurance companies, which are driving this whole approach to medicine, where you've got to see as many patients as possible, because they have certain schedules, payment schedules that are difficult to, you know, earn a living on.

And a lot of the drive to see a lot of patients is because of either Medicare and counting it worked RVUs or trying to see so many patients an hour. And that can be overcome by starting your own business and taking cash. And you figure it out in that setting.

Since you don't have to hire two or three people per physician to do the billing, you can cut costs in that way and you can generate income. So it's another thing that I see growing in the past two or three to five years, even. And then the other one is just finding a part-time job.

It's something you can do on the side because you can then either cut your clinical back to part-time also. And then you get to do two different types of jobs. One, a clinical, one, a non-clinical.

You can find, you know, you feel like you're seeing a little more variety of things. You have better hourly compensation sometimes with the non-clinical side, especially those we're going to be teaching at the summit. And again, if it involves starting something like either a practice that just doesn't bill insurance or a med spa or an infusion lounge or a weight loss clinic, you're still at the end of that able to sell it.

And that's a big asset that can really be a big chunk of your retirement and really builds to what I would call it through that process, some career diversity. The other thing that's nice about doing something like one of these side gigs or side jobs is that they can grow to be a little more part of your week as you retire from clinical, let's say, as you get older. The other is it's protecting you so that if your clinical job, which may depend on employment by a hospital or part of a group, that would be protected.

That gives you that leverage, that independence that you otherwise wouldn't have if someone decides to fire you. Okay. So that's why, because of those last three issues that I've been noticing, Tom and I both, that's why we're calling this year's summit clinical practice, make it great or move on.

So there are ways to improve your practice as it is, where it is, or ways to improve it by moving and doing other things. And there are ways to make it better by splitting it with another non-clinical career. And so that's what we're talking about at the summit this year.

And I think it's very apropos. And the tagline is recognize dysfunction, fix it and protect yourself or seek better opportunities. So you can see, as I go through what we're covering during the summit, it kind of brings all of those in and those kinds of terms will probably make better sense to you.

So let's get into the specifics of this year's summit. Last year, we were, just like last year's summit, we're holding it on three consecutive evenings, starting the day after this episode, day or two after this episode is released. I might be releasing it a little early to give people a chance to go through this before the summit actually starts.

And we're doing it that way in the evenings live to enable as many clinicians to attend the free event. So as many people can come for free, making it because we know that Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday evenings are the best time. If we do it during the day or on a weekend, people usually cannot even come for one or two of the hours of presentations.

But by doing it in evenings and doing it live at night, people can carve out some time and maybe at least watch one or two or three of the sessions each night. Now it starts on April 16th at 7 p.m. Eastern time with four live presentations at the top of each hour. They'll end 50 minutes later, followed by a 10-minute break.

And each presentation includes a live Q&A during the last 10 or 15 minutes. It continues on Wednesday, April 17th and Thursday, April 18th, obviously each night starting again at 7 p.m. Eastern. We're holding it on a typical Zoom meeting platform that most of you are very familiar with.

Questions will be submitted using the chat. It could get a little bit confusing if you got a we're going to use the chat and either myself or Tom Davis will curate the questions. You know, sometimes we get two or three that are very much similar and we'll kind of bunch those together.

But that way we can spend 10 minutes at least getting, you know, answers to really the burning questions that come up during the presentation. I think I mentioned earlier, live attendance is absolutely free, but you have to register in advance to attend. That's the only way we can get you the link to attend.

So you just sign up on the link that I'll give you in a minute. And once you're registered, you can come and attend as many or as few sessions as you like. To save your spot, you're encouraged to register using the link that one of our speakers may have sent you.

You know, you might be watching this, but maybe you're already a student of Dr. Drummond's or Dr. Unachukwu or anybody that's helping us here, which I'll be going through in a minute. And you definitely can use their link and then they get credit. If it's easier or if you don't have any link from anybody else, then you should just go to nonclinicalcareersummit.com and you'll be given an option to sign up for the live free event.

And that's also the same link for purchasing the All Access Pass, because we understand that not everybody can attend all the live sessions. So we're making the recordings available for a very low price. That's just $39.

And given all the work that goes into putting this together, that's pretty darn reasonable. Now it does increase on the day that the summit starts. On Thursday morning, the price goes up to $79.

I'm sorry, not Thursday morning, on Tuesday morning, when the summit is starting later that day. But in the morning, it jumps to $79. That's on April 16th.

So if you want to get that really best price, you should sign up for the All Access Pass by Monday, April 15th. And again, it's $39. So you have to get that registration in by midnight on that date.

And again, it's also available at nonclinicalcareersummit.com or by using any speakers affiliate link if they're sending those out to you. All right, well, let's get into the details about the speakers and the lectures. Basically, like I said, we have four presentations per evening.

They're all live except one is being recorded ahead of time because the speaker is actually not available during the summit. But we didn't want to not include him in this thing. So let's just start with the first one.

And I'm going to say that these are not in the order in which they're being presented, but kind of in the order that they flow in my mind in terms of addressing the main thing we're trying to do for the summit. So for example, Dyke Drummond, Dr. Dyke Drummond, very well known. HappyMD is what he's known for.

He's got a podcast. He's been doing this a long time. He's coached thousands of physicians.

And he's going to be speaking on Tuesday night, the first night. And he's going to be answering this question. Do you really need to leave clinical medicine or is it just the job? And the official title, is it just a shit job or boss you want to escape? So really, it's not necessarily clinical medicine or clinical nursing or other clinical specialties that you're working in.

It's oftentimes other things that lead to the dissatisfaction and the burnout, the anxiety, things like that. So he's going to take that question head on. And how do you determine if this is really you should leave medicine or whether you should stick with it, but resolve the problem in a variety of ways.

And some of the ways he's going to talk about is just how you take control of what you're doing, listing the alternative practice models that might solve the problem. And if it is time to leave, let's put out that ideal job description process. So you can assess when you're going somewhere else, is it likely to be a better situation? So the next speaker I want to talk about is Mike Wu Ming, a very good friend of my podcast and myself, and he's written a book.

And he's going to build on what Dyke is telling us from the standpoint of what his experience has been with owning cash-based medical clinics. Okay, so it's still a practice. It's a medical clinic.

And he just describes sort of the mindset changes you have to go through to make this happen. He'll list the four or five financial levels of a physician, what that means, what it means to be a CEO, not only of your business, but of your life. He'll talk about ways to provide medical services outside the insurance industrial complex, if you want to call it that.

Let's see, he'll compare different types of cash-based medical clinics and where he sees future growth. All right, the third one, again, an expert on business in general, Dr. Una, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu. She goes by Dr. Una.

She has one or two podcasts. She's coaching a lot of physicians, and she's got many courses. And she's an expert and does a lot of speaking about creating a successful business.

In her case, I think is a good mix of people she's worked with who have created healthcare businesses, not necessarily a medical practice. Some have created different medical practices. And so she's going to talk about the business practices you must adopt to be successful, to get into a little bit about the importance of branding and marketing.

And again, she likes to focus, and I think she'll touch on this as well, how to build a practice or a business or both that has value and then eventually sell that business for cash out at the end, which again, I've mentioned earlier, is a great way to help segue into your retirement. And I've got just a hint of this because I'm currently in the process of helping my wife sell her own business, which she's been running for 15 years. And so we're going to just find out what it's worth at this point.

And it wasn't really something that we dwelled on up until the last couple of years. And I guess I'd mentioned now that if you do build a business of any sort, you should really always try to think of the eventual selling of that business because we all eventually go away. And even if it means turning it over to a partner in a medical practice, how does it happen? What's the value? Thinking about those things.

So those are the kinds of things that Dr. Una are going to be talking about. Then to kind of round that out and from another perspective, Joe McMenamin, who just was on my podcast, I think last week, but yeah, and he's going to be talking about corporate entities, meaning, you know, LLCs, corporations, things, how to create a legal situation for your business that makes it safe, protects you financially, keeps the tax concerns in mind. He's also going to touch a little bit on contract negotiations or starting a new business, other things to consider besides just the corporate structure.

And he'll be comparing those different legal entities that can help make your business successful. So the next is we're going to get even right into the nitty gritty of some of these cash-based businesses. See now a med spa, many physicians are familiar with, I wouldn't call that a medical practice.

And I don't think you need a license to run a med spa, although it helps if you're a medical director, if you're doing procedures that obviously are licensed and you have insurance for that. Now practice insurance, but she's going to talk about this. I believe she owned her med spa for 15 years.

She started it from the ground up. She grew it, she marketed it, she branded it and she sold it. And they happened not too long ago.

And she actually was able to segue into staying on as a part-time medical director. And so it really worked out well. She's very happy with how things went.

And again, I don't think she was thinking about the sale of it when she started it, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, but it worked out well for her. So she's going to share some of her experiences with that. Next two guests, our speakers are Jennifer Allen and Kimberly Lowe.

Now they're actually each doing an individual presentation because Jennifer is a physician and Kim is a nurse. They're going to discuss their particular experiences and reasons for going into starting an infusion lounge or an infusion center. And both of them will spend a little bit of time talking about what the heck is an infusion lounge.

And it turns out it can be a lot of different things. And let's see for Jennifer, she's going to be focusing too on the basic services they usually provide and how hers is different and who's sort of best qualified, or let's say has the best background and personality to do something like this. And a little bit about the first three steps, prepare to open your own infusion lounge if you decide to do that.

Now during Kim's session, and Jennifer's I think is on the first day, Kim's is on the third day. Again, she's going to tell you why she thinks it's a great investment and describe how the partnership model, you know, is working for them, for her in particular. She's going to hopefully mention some of the other businesses that nurses might be able to get into in healthcare that, you know, not everything is open to a nurse, you know, medical practice per se isn't.

But even in some places as an NP or an APN, you can do something like that. But she's going to talk about, you know, nurses and kind of side businesses that they might be doing that are similar to what she's doing. And she might end there with three mistakes that you should avoid when starting an infusion lounge.

Well, that brings us up to Paul Hercock. He's been on the podcast twice. He's from the UK.

And he created, well, he has a business that uses medical regulatory consultants or medical affairs, regulatory consultants to help meet the needs of the MDR regulations, medical device regulations in the UK and in the EU. Paul is a physician and he's been working in this field for a long time. And so he started hiring people to do this for him, for his business, which is called Mantra Systems, I believe, Mantra Systems.

And then because he was having difficulty finding people, he created a program to teach people how to become medical regulatory affairs consultants. So that's what he's talking about. And I think it's going to be very interesting.

You'll be working remotely for companies that are mostly in the UK and the EU, but you can work from the United States. In fact, we have a lot of people that contact me that are from the EU. You know, they maybe have traveled, they've immigrated to Europe and then they decided to come to the US and they may have a degree from somewhere in Europe, UK, France, you name it.

And there's no reason why they can't continue to do work back there remotely because things are just so easy to do in that way these days. And in fact, Paul told me that they often look to hire American physicians to do this because they have a lot more experience in dealing with the FDA. The MDR regulations are actually relatively new in Europe and the UK.

So that's going to be an interesting one. Very useful, very practical. Then Dr. Armin Feldman is going to come on.

He's been on the podcast a couple of times and he's going to tell us all about medical legal pre-litigation, pre-trial consulting. And I've discussed this before, but it's an awesome side hustle. Don't have to be licensed to do it, but you definitely have to have a medical background.

And he's going to explain exactly how that works, why there's a growing need for the service and how to get the necessary skills to do it. That brings us to Gretchen Green, who's pretty well known for teaching hundreds of physicians, how to become expert witness consultants. She's run her course nine or 10 times.

And so she's going to give us a quick overview of how to become an expert witness, how to build the business side of that, what to do, what not to do, what it entails. And so this is going to be really interesting and an overview for what she does. And then the last one is Tom Davis, known to many of you, I hope, as my past business partner in Newscript, which we've closed down back a few months ago.

But he's here helping with the summit. And he's been involved with companies that provide social security disability reviewers. And it's something that I didn't quite understand or wasn't well aware of.

I'm definitely aware of an independent medical examiner, but there are also other layers of the process of becoming, let's say, qualified for disability payments from social security. And it's a very niche area, but you can definitely get a remote position as a social security disability application reviewer. And it really piqued my interest.

I want to learn more about that. And so this is something that almost any physician can do. I believe they need to be licensed to start out, but I'm not sure you have to remain licensed.

And there are full-time jobs available as well as some part-time jobs, from what I hear. So I'm really interested in hearing Tom describe exactly what that entails and who's qualified and how we would apply for that. And then finally, did I say finally with Tom? There is one more, and it's kind of the icing on the cake.

And it's a little different, but we thought it would be nice to have Dr. Pranay Parikh talk about real estate and how it can make physicians' lives better. So we're not talking about becoming a full-time real estate investor or manager, but as I spoke about earlier, when you can build different sources of income, different sources of assets over time, then why not do that and add that to your portfolio of income streams? And so we thought, well, it's not a clinical type of thing. It's something many physicians are interested in.

So he is going to be talking about real estate. He spent, I don't know, the last five or 10 years in real estate. He actually has a real estate company that he's partnered with.

He's worked with others that you have heard of on the physician side of things. And there's so many different ways of investing in real estate. We thought, okay, Pranay, come on this summit and talk about how a side hustle in real estate can bring emotional and financial rewards, list the benefits and challenges of investing in real estate and describe, we're going to have him describe the three most popular approaches to investing in real estate.

That wraps it up. That covers the 12 lectures that we're bringing during the summit. I'm really looking forward to learning from all of our speakers.

They'll be sharing their wisdom. You'll be able to follow up with them later if you want to. Some of them are going to probably be promoting the summit with us.

Some of them are going to be providing their own bonuses. So if you are already following some of them or on their email list, watch out for their emails because they will be helping to promote it. So even if you're using the free version, if you register through them, you can get any bonus they might be providing as being part of this.

Our team is really excited to bring you this year's summit. We're doing our very best to bring you actionable advice that will help you to improve your current situation, establish your own practice or healthcare business, or create a lucrative side gig so that you can maintain your autonomy, improve your income and satisfaction and support your transition when you withdraw from clinical practice. So there's a lot of benefits to this year's summit.

Sign up for free right now or purchase your all access pass by going to nonclinicalcareersummit.com. The day that this is being released, the all action pass still only costs $39. And I think it'll be that way for another day or two. But if you're listening to this later, you'll have missed that $39.

So on Tuesday, April 16, the price will jump up to $79. Still a very reasonable price if you need to get the recordings. And then after that, when the summit's done, they'll actually jump up in price again.

But for right now, if you want to get in early, go to nonclinicalcareersummit.com. And to make things easier for you, instead of remembering that link, you can find the show notes and some other links by going to nonclinicalphysicians.com/make-your-clinical-practice-great.

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The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

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The post Make Your Clinical Practice Great or Move On appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Interview with Dr. Joe McMenamin – 347

In today's episode, Dr. Joe McMenamin provides priceless advice for the new expert witness.

Dr. McMenamin, an attorney with an extraordinary blend of medical and legal expertise, shares his compelling journey from medical school to the courtroom. He describes the convergence of these two disciplines, offering insights into the integration of medical and legal expertise.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

In only 1 week from today, the second annual Nonclinical Career Summit will be starting. It’s not entirely nonclinical in its scope, however. We have several presentations about starting and running a private practice without fighting the insurance companies.

It's called Clinical Practice: Make It Great or Move On

And beyond building your cash-based practice, our speakers will show you how to create an asset that can be sold later. Other experts will discuss MedSpas, Infusion Lounges, and other cash-only businesses, using Real Estate to diversify your income and assets, and several nonclinical side gigs including Expert Witness and Medical-Legal Prelitigation Consulting, Medical Affairs Regulatory Consulting, and remote SSDI Application Reviewer.

To learn more check it out at nonclinicalcareersummit.com. Remember that there is NO cost to attend the live event. And if you can’t participate in the Summit, you can purchase the All Access Pass videos for only $39 (until April 16, 2024, when the price increases to $79).

Our Episode Sponsor

Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.”

If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat.

Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

Exploring Expert Witness Work: A Physician's Perspective

Joe delves into the need for expert witnesses, emphasizing their role in educating lay jurors on complex matters. He discusses the distinction between fact and expert witnesses. He also outlines the demands on the expert witness, including the need for clarity and credibility in communication.

Considering Expert Witness Work: Opportunities and Considerations

Benefits and Opportunities

John and Joe explore the potential benefits of engaging in expert witness work for physicians. They discuss financial rewards, intellectual challenges, and educational opportunities associated with this role. Joe highlights the satisfaction of contributing to the legal system and assisting jurors in reaching informed decisions.

Challenges and Considerations

Despite its advantages, Joe cautions physicians considering expert witness work about its potential challenges. He discusses the time-consuming nature of reviewing medical records and the necessity of navigating cross-examinations. Joe also addresses the importance of maintaining credibility and the risks associated with advertising one's services as an expert witness.

Exploring the Intersection of Medicine and Law: Career Considerations

Joe shares advice for physicians contemplating a transition to law, addressing common frustrations within the medical field, and the allure of pursuing a legal career. He highlights the significant commitment required to attend law school and cautions against making impulsive decisions driven solely by dissatisfaction with medical practice. 

Summary

Joe McMenamin offers valuable insights into legal careers, particularly in expert testimony. He mentions his law firm, Christian and Barton, and encourages interested individuals to contact him for more information. Moreover, he extends an invitation to connect via email for discussions on career transition or legal inquiries.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Christian & Barton Law Firm
• Joe McMenamin's Bio and Email Address at Christian & Barton
• Christian & Barton Phone Number: 804-697-4100
• How to Be the Best Expert Witness Consultant – 262
• Top Reasons to Become an Expert Witness Now – 163
• Reserve Your Free Spot at the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Priceless Advice for the New Expert Witness

John

I've always been interested in expert witness work as an attractive side gig. You know, it's interesting, it's intellectually stimulating, it pays well. And in fact, I've had a couple of physicians here on the podcast before, but I've never had an attorney who actually engages or hires or whatever you want to call it, expert witnesses for their cases.

So I'm really happy to have today's guest here. Welcome to the podcast, Joe McMenamin. Thank you, John.

I'm happy to be here. I appreciate the opportunity. I have to just say that it's hard for me not to call you Dr. Joe, because as Joe was going to explain, he does have both the MD and the JD, so he's going to get into why and how that happened. But again, his work has been, you know, as the attorney engaging the physicians to help him out on cases. So that's the perspective we really want to get today. So why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about your background and education, how you ended up where you are these days.

Joe

Sure, John. Yes, I went to med school. I'm not a young whippersnapper.

I went to med school between 74 and 78 at Penn, and then did internal medicine at Emory from 78 through 81. And towards the end of that residency, I applied to law school. It was a concept that I had been thinking about on and off since boyhood, and never really made up my mind for sure until pretty late in the game.

In fact, I was applying to nephrology fellowships at the same time that I was applying to law school. Decided on the latter and went to Penn once again, finishing in 85. It took me four years because halfway through the first year, I had to take a year off when we discovered we were pregnant and I had to put a few dollars together.

So I was a moonlight ER doc for a while. And then finishing law school in 85, I went to practice at a large international firm, was there for a good many years. And then about 10, well, in 2013, I did solo stint for about a year, which was, sorry, 10 years, which was quite a change.

And now I'm at a firm called Christian & Barton in downtown Richmond. Curiously enough, in the very same building where I began my career, but with a different firm. And health law is the main focus of what I do for what I assume are obvious reasons.

John

Very nice. Yeah, that must've been an interesting few years there. Have to jump back and forth, you know, in your education, work again clinically.

How did that year go?

Joe

Well, actually it was longer than a year. I mean, I began my ER moonlighting career as a resident, as a JAR and an SAR. Kept it up during law school, all the way through law school, which is entirely doable.

Law school's curriculum is a very different animal from medical school. The one year that was full-time was occasioned, as I say, by the impending birth of our firstborn and the need to put a few dollars together.

John

Since that time, when you took that first, I think full-time job as an attorney, you never then went back to clinical work part-time or moonlighting or anything?

Joe

No, no, I haven't touched a patient since, good Lord, 1985. And so as I tell lay people, if your back hurts or something, I am not the guy you want to talk to. I mean, Rusty doesn't even begin to cover me.

On the other hand, everything I do benefits from and utilizes in some fashion and to some degree, my education and training in medicine. And I've been fortunate to be able to develop a legal practice that capitalizes upon that stage in my education. And I'm grateful for it to this day.

Excellent.

John

Well, the first question I have relative to this, the reason you're here today to understand this work as an expert witness is really to get to your side of the story, your take on it as someone who's engaged physician. So why don't, let's see, why don't we just start by saying, telling us about, you know, why is there a need for expert witnesses? Why this should potentially be an interesting thing to do on the side for physicians, most of whom will still be practicing when they do this, although I understand not always.

And just kind of tell us about your perspective on those topics.

Joe

Well, the reason that expert witnesses exist and not just in medicine, but a great many other fields is that in US law, pardon me, which was stolen in large measure from the British, a lot of decisions are made by juries. And, you know, people wax eloquent about the wonders of the jury system. And indeed it does have a lot to recommend it.

But jurors are by definition lay people. They're chosen from the ranks of registered voters or from drivers or what have you. And it's not impossible theoretically that the next jury that comes along might have a Nobel Laureate in physics on it.

But the probability of that is pretty remote. And even if you did, that doesn't mean that this very bright, very capable person knows anything about how to work up an acute abdomen or what have you. So the idea is to bring in people who by virtue of their knowledge, skill, training and experience are able to enlighten the jury about the menace, about what is expected and whether in a given instance, the defendant, the person being sued did or did not comply with what we refer to as the standard of care.

And because we recognize that however intelligent, somebody with no medical training or background is not going to have any knowledge or at least probably has no knowledge or if he does, he has precious little about medical topics, we bring in physicians to serve as experts. Now, if the case involves, let's say toxicology, we might not want a physician, we might want a toxicologist or it involves a totally different field. I mean, there's all sorts of experts in all sorts of fields that limited only by your imagination but an accountant could be an expert witness potential or a geologist could be an expert witness depending upon what the nature of the claim is.

I focus of course, on healthcare matters. So naturally, the vast majority of the doctors, sorry, of the experts I've hired have been physicians.

John

Okay. Now, what is your understanding of why this might be interesting to do for a physician? I'm sure some of the people come in and do it maybe with some misconceptions but why would you think it'd be something that would be of benefit for a physician to pursue?

Joe

Well, I'll start by suggesting that it is not for everybody. You could be the best doctor on planet earth and perhaps not be a very effective witness. Reverse is also true.

You could be an extraordinarily talented witness but not necessarily a great doc. They're entirely different skill sets, at least as I see things. It may be useful to have a little background in evidence law to preface what my remarks on this.

There's a distinction in the law of evidence between fact witnesses and expert witnesses. A fact witness is just that, somebody who, for whatever reason, has knowledge of facts pertinent to the case. So I leave work this afternoon and I happen to see the Chevy hit the Ford in the intersection.

I don't know the driver of either one. I don't know what either one was doing. I frankly don't even want to be involved but I happened to be there at the time.

I saw what I saw. In the event a lawsuit ensues from that situation, then whichever side thinks my testimony would be useful to its version of the case, can require me if necessary, or can certainly ask me, and if need be, back it up by law, and require me to come to court to testify to whatever I saw. And this proponent, the side that has asked me to come, can ask me a series of questions designed to elicit from me whatever knowledge I have of this situation.

After that, the other side, the side representing whoever the defendant is, if I'm on the plaintiff's side of it, will cross-examine me, ask me a series of questions intended to suggest to the jury that maybe I'm not such a reliable witness. Maybe I didn't see things very clearly. Maybe it was a cloudy day and my vision was hazy because, I don't know, I'm not wearing my glasses.

Or maybe I'm not reliable. Or maybe I'm friendly with the driver of the other car. Whatever, all of that is perfectly kosher, perfectly legitimate.

And, you know, if I do well on cross-examination, the side that asked me to appear will be pleased, and if I don't, then the side that did the cross-examination will be pleased. But the point is that all I can testify to is what I saw or heard or what I know. I cannot offer an opinion.

I cannot say, I think the driver of the Chevy was at fault, even if I really do believe that, and even if, in fact, there's good basis to say that that's true. That's an opinion I cannot offer. Moreover, I don't get paid for my time.

It's expected of me as a citizen to show up when I need to and to testify. An expert witness is a different animal. An expert witness, first of all, is a volunteer.

Nobody can force you to be an expert. You have to willingly accept the opportunity if it is given to you. Second, you do get to charge for your time.

The law recognizes that every moment that you spend horsing around with some lawyer some place is a moment that you cannot be seeing patients or whatever it is you normally do, and as a result, you're losing money in this proposition unless you can bill for it, and so you can. And third is, yes, indeed, you can give opinions. That's the whole point, in fact.

The reason that whatever makes you an expert is that you have knowledge that most people don't, and therefore your views on a particular technical or scientific or medical or otherwise complicated subject are intended to be, and we hope are, useful to this jury of laypeople who have no prior exposure to these concepts, have very little understanding of them, and the biggest job that the expert has is to be a teacher, at least as I see things. You're there to teach the jury what the facts are. Now, even that's a bit of an oversimplification because although I think the distinctions I just drew between fact witnesses and expert witnesses are correct, there are also two types of experts.

There are so-called consulting experts, and then there are testifying experts. A consulting expert, as the name suggests, serves as a consultant to a lawyer, or maybe a group of lawyers, and is chosen presumably because of his knowledge, whatever his expertise may be in the judgment of those hiring him, is highly valuable, highly relevant to whatever is at issue. But that person does not appear in court, does not testify, and the side hiring him is under no obligation to identify him to the other side, nor to tell the other side, even that he exists, much less what his credentials are, or what his opinions might be, or what the basis for those opinions might be.

He's purely behind the scenes. The testifying expert, on the other hand, is the one that Hollywood will make a movie about, or at least feature an expert in a movie about a trial. This is the person who, yes, will indeed have educated the lawyer ahead of time, presumably, but will also be there in court, will take an oath to tell the truth, will then testify in response to questions posed to him by the sponsoring lawyer, and will respond in turn to the cross-examination questions offered by the sponsoring lawyer's opponent.

Now, both the plaintiff, that's the person bringing the suit, and the defendant, the person being sued, have the right to call an expert, or sometimes multiple experts, depending upon the nature of the case and its complexity. It's not unusual, for example, to have at least two experts on both sides. Why?

Well, because the malpractice theory proceeds on the basis of ordinary negligence law, which has four components, classically, duty, breach, causation, damages. Nothing novel here. I'd be disappointed in any first-year tort student who couldn't rattle that list off just as well as I can.

Duty. If you're my doctor, I'm your patient, you owe me a duty. It's pretty much that simple.

It's usually straightforward, not so much. If I'm an accident victim on the side of the road, and you are driving past, and you see me there, and you're able to help, and you decide to help, or you decide not to help, that's duty. Generally, that's not contested in these cases.

It's pretty clear that you do or you don't own a duty. Breach is, in contrast, highly contested. That's the heart and soul of the case.

Did you or did you not breach the standard of care at the relevant time caring for this particular patient? The plaintiff's expert's job on standard of care is to say the standard of care requires A, B, and C. Doctor so-and-so, the defendant failed to do, did do A and B, but he didn't do C.

That's a breach of the standard of care. The second expert that that plaintiff may call is a causation expert, because that's the third element of the story. Again, it's duty, breach, causation, damage.

It's causation is the so what question. I don't know. I'm a general internist, and you come into me with a history of a bad cough.

It seems to be getting worse. You're coughing up blood. You've lost a bunch of weight.

You've got some chest pain. Oh, and by the way, you've got a 100-pack year smoking history. And on examination, I discover that you have a hard mass in your left supraclavicular fossa.

And then on X-ray, there's a mass demonstrated in the left upper lobe, but somehow, I don't put two and two together, and I say, well, sorry, you've got the cough, nothing serious. Probably go away in a few weeks. I'll see you again next year for your annual physical.

But after that appointment, you leave my office, you cross the street, and you're run over by a bus, and boom, you're dead right on the spot. Is there a cause of action against me for medical malpractice for failing to diagnose what I hope was a reasonably clear case of lung cancer? The answer is no.

Why? I might have reached a standard of care in not being able to make that diagnosis, but I didn't kill you. My mistake didn't kill you.

The bus killed you. So maybe there's a claim against the bus company or the driver or both. Maybe there's a claim against the city for not putting a stop sign there.

I don't know. Use your imagination. But there's no claim against me as the doc because I had nothing to do with your death.

There are a class of experts who testify to causation, which is, from a medical point of view, often the most complicated and also the most interesting part of a malpractice case. Why did so-and-so develop condition X? Or why did he die at the age of whatever when he should have lived another 10 years or so it could be argued?

Now, one doctor could serve as both the standard of care expert and the causation expert, but it's not unusual to have one of each or, for that matter, more than one. And then just as the plaintiff gets to call experts to testify to these matters, the defendant can too, and the defendant will if he, as it descends, at least in my view, and you find somebody that you think is highly qualified, testify contradicting what the other side's experts said. Now, at the end of the day, who gets to decide the answer?

The jury. Now, philosophically, you may think that's smart or dumb. I'll leave that to you.

But we've been doing it this way. I'm using we in a grand collective sense, tracing it all the way back to England shortly after the Norman invasion in 1066, William the Conqueror and all that, for nearly 1,000 years. And that's how we decide these cases.

So for better or worse, the lay people sitting in the box are the ones who decide what the standard of care is and whether on a particular occasion, Dr. Smith did or did not comply with that standard. Now, I finally get around to your question was why would you want to do this? Well, you've already pointed out a couple of things, John.

First, you do make money doing this. You know, your time is valuable as a physician. And, you know, it's not at all unusual.

In fact, it would be unusual not to have an expert charge less than let's say $300 an hour. 400 is not unusual. 500 is not unusual.

600 is maybe pushing it a little bit, but not all that much. You know, the sky's the limit. There is a downside.

If your fee is so high as to put you out of reach, you may not get hired because you're simply too expensive. Or the lawyer is willing to bear the freight for whatever that fee happens to be and it warrants into many thousands, but the other side gets to find out what your fees are and can cross-examine you. And a skilled examiner will have no trouble suggesting that because you're $20,000 richer or having got involved with this lawsuit that you're a hired gun and therefore your credibility is out the window.

Now, the jury will not necessarily reject your testimony because of the 20,000 or 40,000 or whatever it is, but it might. So bear that in mind. But there is a source of revenue here and it's not trivial.

There are people who push this really hard. I had a, I mean, one of the most enjoyable aspects of malpractice defense work is cross-examining the other side's expert, at least when you've got some goods on. I mean, I had an expert who testified against me many years ago that I remember vividly.

He maintained a private airplane. The better to go from deposition to deposition to courthouse to courthouse all across the United States and made a handsome living doing this and simply didn't bother seeing patients. Well, it wasn't that hard to cross-examine this guy.

Maintaining airplanes is an expensive proposition. You have to earn a lot of money to be able to do that. And he did, he did it by testifying.

He would testify all over the country all the time and he didn't bother seeing patients because he was too busy testifying. Now here in Virginia, he would not qualify because there's a rule here that says that if you don't have an active clinical practice or at least have had one within two years of the relevant day, then you're no longer qualified. However learned you might've been 20 or five years ago, you're out of business.

Not every state has that rule. So more elaboration perhaps than was necessary, but income. The other thing is it will help you develop a better understanding of the legal system.

Doctors have extensive educations going for years and years and years as I don't need to tell this audience, but seldom do they get much exposure to or experience with the legal system. This is one way to learn about. As you pointed out, John, this is an intellectual challenge.

It is clearly an intellectual exercise here. When you're talking to a jury, remember these folks have no relevant education or training. The wisdom in the field is to suggest that you ought to assume that these folks have a seventh grade education.

Not to disparage anybody, not to put them down, but just because they really don't have much to go. So you've got to take concepts that you and other really smart people have spent a lifetime studying, understanding, agonizing over, and reduce it, translate it in a manner that lay people can understand. Got to keep it simple enough that John Q.

Public, listening carefully, can follow it. So teaching lay folks about complicated subjects is not necessarily an easy thing to do. It is definitely a challenge.

And then when you get cross-examined, if you weren't challenged before, unless the cross-examiner is really lousy, which is possible, then you're truly about to be challenged. I mean, that's the whole game. The game with cross-examination is to try to discredit this witness by whatever means you can come up with short of breaking the law.

And there are a lot of ways to do that. So you need to be on your toes if you're going to survive cross-examination. And if you don't survive it, your chances of being hired again are diminished a little bit.

On the other hand, if you come through it like a champ, the same guy that hired you last time is going to be interested next time if there is an opportunity. Or there isn't, but there's a network among lawyers on both sides of the V, as we call it, the plaintiff's bar and the defense bar. If I need an expert on some topic where I've never had to hire an expert before, I might call up one of my buddies on the defense side and say, hey, Charlie, I had a case coming up.

I need a pediatric neurosurgeon. Can you help me? Yeah, do you have any experience?

And he'll say, no, I'm sorry, I don't either. But he might say, but talk to Mary Smith down the street. I think she hired somebody like that.

And I call Mary up and Mary may be able to say, well, talk to Dr. X at Mecca University. Guy's terrific. And I do that.

Well, we talk to each other and we know about these things. You're also, and this might sound corny, you're also making a meaningful contribution to the justice system. Remember, the jurors, I'm convinced, truly do want to do the right thing.

They want to be fair, they want to be just, and they struggle to do this correctly. And if you're able to help them reach a logical, sound conclusion, not only will they be grateful, but you have genuinely contributed to our country, at least as I see things. And of course, if you testify on the defense side, and I never did and never will do plaintiff's work, you're helping your fellow docs.

Now, I don't know, John, have I, should I go over to the negatives or should I stop?

John

Good question. Well, I guess, yeah, why not? It's kind of addresses this issue.

If someone was thinking about pursuing this work, there's probably certain things you'd want them to know about it, what they should expect, the good, the bad, the ugly. So yeah, why don't you take that on now?

Joe

Well, I've already dwelled at some length on the cross-examination phenomenon. Cross-examination is tough, at least if your examiner is worth his pay. I mean, if he's any good, he'll do a good job.

And that means you've got to be very, very alert. It's time-consuming. If you're going to do a good job, you've got to review the medical records.

Many times in malpractice cases, the medical records are extensive. And the days when we relied upon paper, you know, you got two feet worth of documents to plow through. And granted, doctors read charts all day, every day, and they know how to do it.

But something that doctors, frankly, don't often do is they may not necessarily read the nurse's notes, or the PT's notes, or the OT's notes, or never mind the NA's notes in a nursing home case. You know who does? Plaintiff's lawyers.

So to be aware of what's in potentially damaging information in the nurse's note written at two in the morning, you probably need to read that. Even if in your actual work in clinical practice, you want to see what your consultant had to say in his note. You want to maybe see the progress notes from your colleagues who wrote a note in the chart yesterday.

And you're not necessarily going to pay so much attention to what the occupational therapist had to say. But in litigation, what the OT said might very well be important. So it takes a lot of time.

You're also going to spend a lot of time with lawyers. Some people would consider that cruel and unusual punishment. Depends on your point of view, but if you don't particularly like lawyers, and if you don't, you are not unique in the medical profession, factor in that you're going to spend a lot of time with people that you may not necessarily like.

Now, on the other hand, if I'm hiring you, one of the things that I will do my best to do is to make you happy, since I want you to cooperate with me, work hard with me, do a good job for my client. So I'm going to do my best to keep you happy, but I can't change the fact that I'm employed. Now, and of course, if you do plaintiff's work, you will run the risk of antagonizing your colleagues.

Now, flip side of that. Just as I can portray the guy with the private airplane as a prostitute, if you did nothing but defense work all day, every day, well, I'd be grateful, I would kiss your feet, but you wouldn't be vulnerable to cross by a plaintiff's lawyer who would point out that in the last 16 cases you've reviewed, all of them were for defense counsel. And you refused 17 opportunities to represent, not to represent, but to testify on behalf of plaintiffs, if that were true.

So factor that in as you're thinking about these things. So it can be enjoyable, but it also has its downsides. And one thing I would caution you about is you want to be careful about advertising.

Some docs are eager to do this kind of thing, make that very clear. When I was a baby lawyer a long time ago, I received a letter from a doc in the Central Virginia area addressed to me at my law firm and inviting me to hire him as an expert. No, I'm sorry, I got my story mixed up.

That's not quite correct. Instead, it didn't go to me directly, it went to a guy down the hall, one of my colleagues, one of my fellow lawyers in the firm, whose field was construction law, didn't do malpractice work at all. But he wandered down the hall, he said, Joe, take a look at this, I don't know if this guy's any good or if you're interested, can't help me, but maybe he can help you.

Well, I didn't hire him. And frankly, one reason was because I try to avoid hiring people who advertise. Why?

Because of the very thing that happened when the guy came to trial, by chance, a year or two later. At the right point, when my opportunity to question him came, I said, Dr. So-and-so, who is Ron Eimer? And he said, I have no idea.

I said, well, you write letters to Ron, don't you? I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this person. I said, all right, well, let me show you Exhibit A.

And I show a copy, of course, to opposing counsel, and I show a copy to the court. Take a look at Exhibit A, if you would. Do you recognize your signature at the bottom of that letter?

Yes, I do. Is that your signature? Yes, it is.

Okay, and Ron Eimer is the person to whom this was addressed, is he not? Yes, and it says Ron Eimer Esquires. He's a lawyer, is he not?

Yeah, and beneath that, it says McGuire Woods and Battle, which was the name of the firm at the time. That's a law firm, is it not? Yes, it is.

So you were ready to Mr. Eimer to get the opportunity to testify, weren't you? And of course, you're getting well-paid for your time this afternoon, are you not? So your advertising really paid off pretty well, didn't Mr. Plaintiff's lawyer?

You know, I can be an SOB when I need to be. So think about that. Doesn't mean you never advertise, or you shouldn't.

Maybe you have to, but be careful because you're creating potential cross-examination equipment and believe me, I won't hesitate to use it if I think it's going to help my client prevail in the case. Also, be careful if you testify too much, as I indicated earlier, you undercut your credibility. Even if there isn't any rule that says you're out if you don't have an active clinical practice, as there is in Virginia, if I can portray you as somebody who testifies for a living, doesn't really take care of patients, then I have severely harmed your credibility because the jury wants to hear, almost always.

They want to hear from docs who actually care for folks who are sick or who are injured, not from people who don't do that for a living. It's too easy for opposing counsel to paint you as incredible, not worthy of belief. Also be careful of organizations that group experts together.

There are companies in the business, there are companies that will advertise to lawyers and say, look, we've got a whole stable of experts in every subject from A to Z, and they really do. They've got from anthropology to zoology or whatever. You need an expert in whatever field, we can help you out.

And they can't. And I won't mind admitting that at times I have relied upon organizations such as that, but be careful because if you get in bed with those guys, you'll have a contract with them. The contract will likely be discoverable.

Contract may very well have language in it that people like me will be able to use to hit you over the head on cost of examination. Think about proof sources. They're important.

You know, it's not an obvious thing. And I had to try a few cases before I began to understand really how important these paper trails may be. So, you know, think about these negatives as well as the positives.

I'm not trying to talk you out of doing this in the least. I've had some, I'm deeply grateful, and I mean that with the most profound sincerity to experts who helped me out and helped me get a doctor's chestnuts out of the fire in a way that was convincing to the court, convincing to the jury more important. And I'm indebted to those folks and I would help them any way I could.

And on the other hand, if you testify against me, I'm going to try and crush you if I possibly can. You may crush me, but that's the name of the game.

John

I do have two or three other little questions before I let you go. One is, you know, people always ask, okay, well, how much am I going to have to do with that massive chart review? How much am I going to have to do for prep and writing report?

And then, oh, do I have to, you know, go to a deposition, prepare for deposition? And what about how often will I end up in court? What's your experience been with that?

Joe

The amount of reading and preparation is largely a function of the complexity of the case and the scope of the medical record. If the chart is comparatively skinny and the facts are simple, well, frankly, there's a pretty good chance of mine I go to court, but if it does, then your prep will be comparatively painless. Now, you will have to spend time with the lawyer that hired you.

That's important. He needs to understand how you're going to answer a particular question, and you need to understand the rules of the road, and the lawyer's job is to acquaint you with them. The lawyer is not there to tell you to answer a certain question a certain way, but the lawyer can try to anticipate what some of the questions will be and can discuss with you various ways to handle them. In the end, it's your opinion, not the lawyer's.

You're the expert, not the lawyer, so you have to answer it as you see fit, but the lawyer can point out that, I don't know, if I look at my wall over there, there are probably six or eight adjectives I could use to describe its color, none of which would be incorrect or untrue, but one might provide in the mind of the listener a different image, maybe a better image, than choice number six, perhaps, and there's nothing wrong with discussing those possibilities.

As far as depositions, that's a matter of state law. All of this stuff is governed by, nearly all of it, is governed by state law. Some states do not make provision for depositions, and it's a matter of choice.

It's a matter of grace and agreement between the lawyers, but you can't force a deposition of the opposing expert in some states. In other states, you can. It's a matter of right.

You get to do it. You can count on the deposition taking probably a good two, three hours and another one or two before that for prep time. Remember, that's all billable.

You get to bill for all of it. I take the position that the prep time, you bill to the lawyer that hired you. The deposition time, you bill to the other lawyer because he's the one who determines how long that deposition goes.

Now, some depositions are endless. I mean, I've had them go for two days, but that's rare. That's unusual.

I've had them be 35 minutes. That's equally rare and unusual, but a couple of three hours, maybe four, that's not unusual. That's fairly typical.

Trial work, you may be on the stand for a relatively short period of time. Often, that's not the case. We'll get to that in a second.

What you may not realize, though, is you have to be available on call. The lawyer does not control the pace of the trial, at least not completely. The judge has the most control over that.

The judge is going to be sensitive to when the jury needs to get up and get a bite to eat or to go to the john or whatever it might be. Things happen. You've got a game plan before the trial.

You have six witnesses. You want to call them in this order. You think you're going to need an hour for this one, 30 minutes for that one, two hours for that one, and so on.

You make all those plans, but while the planning is a good idea, very often you can't stick with that plan. You think that you're going to call your expert at roughly two o'clock on the second day of trial. Well, you can tell him that and he can plan around it, but it might not be until the third day of trial, or it might be 10 o'clock that morning, or it might be some other time.

For a practicing clinician running an office or a hospital practice too, for that matter, that's really difficult to deal with. Yet, the lawyer needs you to have that kind of flexibility because he just doesn't have control over the point in time at which you're going to be needed. When he needs you, he needs you.

No joke. If you're somehow unable to put an expert on, chances are you lose that case. It's very, very difficult to prevail without your expert.

When you sign up, recognize that you're making a commitment and it may be very inconvenient to you. If that's not acceptable, I fully understand and respect that, but don't sign up. Now, discuss it, of course, with a hiring lawyer.

There are circumstances when the degree of control is a little better than I've suggested, and maybe it won't be so difficult. But do realize that trials are unpredictable animals, and things happen at a rate, at a pace that you may not be able to predict.

John

The other sort of short question I have is what's the demand like now, and is it related more to specialty and expertise, or is there an ongoing demand, or is the demand already kind of flooded with expert witness? What's that about?

Joe

Well, this is the United States, and it's 2024. We live in the litigation capital of the known universe, and our enthusiasm for litigation, we as Americans, does not seem to have abated at all during the course of my career. If anything, it may have increased.

And the national pastime is not baseball. The national pastime is litigation. Now, of the physicians out there, and what are they?

A million doctors, maybe, in the whole United States? There's a certain number of them, a fairly high fraction. You want nothing to do with any of this.

They flat will turn you down. And that's their right. They have every right to refuse.

There's no duty to do this. And that means that your pool to choose from is narrow. Of those willing to testify, there are some that I wouldn't hire because it's too easy for them to be cross-examined.

Of those that I am willing to hire, it could be that my number one draft choice is going to be on vacation on the day of trial. And so I'm out of luck. I can't use that guy.

And so for a whole variety of reasons, the chances are good, I would think, that the demand will be there. And there is a market for these services. If it is of interest to you, and you don't want to advertise, you can quietly over lunch or a game of golf or whatever floats your boat, mention it to Dr. So-and-so. Or maybe mention it to, if you happen to know a guy working for, a person working for a malpractice insurance company, who after all will be the ones to pay your freight at the end of the day. Say, you know, I'm curious about this. Tell me about it.

And you don't put anything in writing because that's too easy to find. But a little conversation like that could pave the way to opportunities. So you want to be discreet about it.

And I wouldn't go beating the drum, but let the word get out in subtle and not too obvious manner. And you might get some opportunities. You might find that you really like it.

Then again, you might hate it. So go to school on whatever opportunities you do get and judge whether to keep up with this sort of thing based on your initial experiences.

John

I do have one more question. And this is a tangent that we kind of discussed a little bit during a prep meeting that we did a while back. And it was this idea that as a physician, I get really frustrated.

I'm tired of people telling me what to do. And, you know, the heck with it. I'm going to go to law school and somehow take this out on somebody else.

What's your advice? Or have you heard that comment before? I have heard that comment before.

Joe

I get phone, not every day by any means, but I get from time to time, I get a phone call from Dr. So-and-so from out of the blue, somebody I've never heard of, probably will never speak to again. But somehow, he got hold of my name. And he says, tell me about law school.

Tell me about being a lawyer and all that. And I've developed, I'd like to think, a fairly accurate set of antennae for telling whether the inquiry results from a sincere curiosity about how you combine these fields and whether it would be of interest versus the kind of physician you just described, John, who's thoroughly hacked off because some person somewhere who doesn't have anywhere near his credentials or his training or his knowledge or his experience or the pressure or the responsibility of caring for a patient has just told him, well, no, we're not going to provide prior authorization for whatever it is you want to do.

Well, I understand why you would be very angry about that. If I were subjected to that, I'd be furious. And I don't mind admitting that, however, is not, repeat not, a reason to go to law school.

Law school is a three-year investment. Nowadays, you're looking well at six figures. It's a time when, yes, you can work part-time as I did, but you're not going to be able to earn the fees that you could in full-time practice in medicine.

And, you know, it's not as hard as medical school, in my opinion, but it's not a walk in the park either. There's a lot of reading to do. Some of it is fairly difficult sledding.

Some of the professors you'll like, and frankly, if your experience is anything like mine, some of them you won't. And, of course, you'll be in there with a bunch of young leper snappers, quite possibly. Now, not so much as years ago, but still, you'll be older than most, probably.

Those factors may not necessarily be to your liking, or maybe they will be, but it is a major commitment. It's not just something you decide to do on the odd Thursday for no particular reason. So, if you're angry about the way medicine is being practiced, I understand that.

React to it in some way that makes sense, but don't, on that basis and that basis alone, go to law school. One of the reasons, one of many, that I went to law school, quite honestly, is that I saw a lawsuit wreck the life, and I'm not exaggerating here, I think that's not an exaggeration, wreck the life of a young doctor who was a year ahead of me in training, a fellow that I truly looked up to, a fellow I consciously tried to emulate, because I thought he's the ideal resident by the time this happened, he was a fellow.

I'd like to be just like Dick. And something happened, and he got sued, and he just wasn't the same person. And frankly, I don't think his patients got, at least for a length of time, got quite the same service that they did before.

And I thought, this is wrong. Somebody ought to do something about that. But this was after having thought about it for, I don't know, however long it is from seventh grade to senior residency, a long time, on and off, and weighing many variables and asking people about it, talking to people who are in the field, etc.

You don't do it on the spur of the moment. You don't do it because you're ticked off, however justified your anger may be. You do it because you want to be a lawyer and practice law.

Otherwise, don't bother.

John

I tell you, looking back though, it does sound very interesting. I'm way past that hill. But anyway, okay, so last thing, how do we get a hold of you?

Joe

The best bet, frankly, is to either call me or send me an email, and we'll set up a time to chat. The firm's name is Christian and Barton, B-A-R-T-O-N. And if you Google McMenamin, Christian and Barton, you won't have any trouble.

You might not have any trouble with Joseph P. McMenamin. There aren't that many of us, even in Ireland, and it's still an unusual name.

John

And I'm more than happy to talk to you. All right, well, with that, I want to thank you so much for spending this more than half an hour here today talking about this very interesting topic. So, Joe, with that, I guess it's time to say goodbye.

Joe

Well, thanks very much for the opportunity, John. I enjoyed it, and I hope it's of interest to your audience.

John

You know, one thing that we forgot to mention, so I will throw it here at the end, is that we're going to be seeing you at the Summit, which is going to be in place, is going to be going on within a week or two of the release of this. So, I think my listeners know, because I've mentioned it in other podcasts, but Joe's going to be speaking on a different area of his expertise, having to do with the structure of corporations and starting a small business, those kinds of things. And that'll be running the 16th through the 18th of April of this year in the second annual Summit.

And, boy, we really look forward to hearing from you there, Joe. That'll be fantastic. Thank you, John.

Looking forward to it myself. All right. Bye-bye.

Bye now.

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The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Priceless Advice for the New Expert Witness appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Episode 328

In today's episode, John helps listeners to decide whether expert witness or medical legal consulting best aligns with your needs.

From decoding the nuances of medical documentation to navigating the uncharted waters of depositions and court testimony, John shares a roadmap for physicians eager to diversify their careers.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Did you know that you can sponsor the Physician Nonclinical Careers Podcast? As a sponsor, you will reach thousands of physicians with each episode to sell your products and services or to build your following. For a modest fee, your message will be heard on the podcast and will continue to reach new listeners for years after it is released.  The message will also appear on the website with over 8,000 monthly visits and in our email newsletter and social media posts. To learn more, contact us at john.jurica.md@gmail.com and include SPONSOR in the Subject Line.

The Role of Physicians in Translation and Interpretation

John sheds light on the pivotal role physicians play in translating and interpreting complex medical concepts. He highlights instances where clinicians, whether employed or in a consulting role, act as bridges between the clinical and administrative realms.

Examples include positions in clinical documentation integrity (CDI), quality improvement, utilization management,  and informatics, where physicians serve as interpreters for those without a clinical background.

Nonclinical Career Paths: Expert Witness Consulting and Medical-Legal Consulting

Delving into nonclinical career options, John explores two distinct avenues—expert witness consulting and medical-legal consulting. He elaborates on the differences between the two, discussing the responsibilities, compensation, and prerequisites for each.

Expert witness consulting, involving legal testimony, is contrasted with medical-legal consulting, a role centered on reviewing, summarizing, and advising on cases without the necessity for courtroom appearances or depositions.

Both freelance consulting businesses offer the benefit of producing hourly revenues that exceed those of typical clinical activities. Yet, they can be done remotely, and with no risk of the kind of lawsuits that practicing physicians must endure. 

Summary

For those considering expert witness consulting, John suggests Dr. Gretchen Green's comprehensive course and SEAK, an organization that offers resources and directories for physicians learning to be expert witnesses. Dr. Armin Feldman's offerings cater to those interested in medical-legal consulting. Both courses cover essential aspects, from legalities to business setup.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Gretchen Green's Expert Witness Startup School
• SEAK's Expert Witness Courses
• Dr. Armin Feldman's Medical Legal Consulting Course
• How to Do a New Kind of Medical Legal Consulting as a Part Time Gig – 227
• Why You Must Consider Starting a Medical Legal Consulting Business – 281
• Top Reasons to Become an Expert Witness Now – 163
• How to Be the Best Expert Witness Consultant – 262
• NewScr!pt

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 328

Expert Witness or Medical Legal Consulting: Which Should You Pursue?

John: I am doing this on my phone. I think the clarity will be a little bit less than usual. I did a dry run earlier and it was kind of breaking up a little bit, but we'll do our best today. I just want to spend 10 or 15 minutes talking about a particular topic that interest to me, and it's something I've noticed. And then I will talk about the generalities and then work my way into two different nonclinical careers that one might consider to do either as a side gig or full-time, although only one of them can be done as a full-time job.

I'm in Scottsdale, Arizona. I normally am in the Chicago area where I live most of my time, but my wife and I bought a small house out here and it's been getting renovated and we're just kind of out here to check on things. And so, that's part of the issue. But let me get started.

One of the things I've noticed when physicians or other clinicians, anybody's looking for a new position, a new job, particularly in healthcare, even if they decide to do some consulting or even if they're employed, that the jobs that open up for physicians and other clinicians involves either translating or interpreting things.

Because what you do is you start with your one foot in the healthcare medical world and then you obtain some expertise in another area that benefits physicians, benefits healthcare organizations. And then as an employee or as a consultant, you can be the person who can educate and interpret the language and the concepts that maybe are foreign to one side or the other, just like the CEO of a hospital doesn't really understand what a physician goes through for their education, training background and all that. It doesn't really understand how nurses and physicians and therapists interact with patients and kind of bond that we have.

And this is why we get in trouble sometimes because we're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole because the CEO is thinking in terms of the bottom line and finances and making things as productive as possible, and the physicians, nurses, therapists and others are thinking about, "How can I make this patient better? How can I help this patient understand what's going on?"

That comes up a lot and I'll give you some just simple examples. These are jobs I've always talked about in the healthcare field, in hospitals. Let's say clinical documentation improvement. That is a position as a physician advisor or medical director where you are explaining to your colleague physicians the rules and regulations around using the ICD-10 or the DRG system or whatever it may be. It's not really intuitive, it doesn't correlate directly with what we do clinically. In the CDI world, there's different levels. Usually three levels on the inpatient side for heart failure, for pneumonia and so forth. But they're all based on trying to figure out the complexity and then paying a higher amount for the more complex.

But it doesn't directly correlate with what we've learned as physicians and nurses in terms of treating those patients. And so, the physician advisor or medical directors interpreting and translating the concepts from one group to another. That's a great place to be. And there's a lot of jobs and they pay very well when you can find yourself in that important position of making that translation and making that connection and helping others get what they need. And at the same time, capture the true medical information.

Well, the same thing is true in informatics. A medical informaticist is translating to his or her colleagues. Concepts that need to be understood in terms of using an EMR or even beyond that, tracking data. And then it kind of extends into quality improvement where we have to maybe explain the statistical factors that are used in analyzing billing data to measure quality.

And again, it's not an easy to understand topic, but a quality medical director would spend a lot of their time explaining the p-values we use when we're looking at those statistical differences. And the reason why we feel that these comparisons between patients, between groups of patients, groups of physicians and their quality is really truly statistically significant and at the same time is risk adjusted, which is the big issue a lot of times in accepting quality improvement data.

Again, these are all interpretations and translations between these groups of people and get them to buy in and understand then learn how to do it better. UM it's the same thing. We don't think in terms of utilization management or benefits management when we're trying to take care of our patients, but if we do understand it better, then we can actually be more effective.

But one area where this comes up, which we don't normally think of as specifically this issue, but it is, and that's in any kind of consulting. And the type of consulting I am going to talk about today is legal. Medical legal types of consulting. And when I think about that as a nonclinical job, I think of maybe two sides of the same coin. Probably the most common areas where attorneys and physicians interact. And that is on one hand being an expert witness consultant or starting on expert witness consulting business, and what many of us now call medical-legal consulting.

Those are two really different ways of interfacing with the legal system as a healthcare provider. There are some opportunities in both of those for let's say a nurse or a physical therapist, something like that. Probably more opportunities for physicians. That's what I'm going to be speaking about for the next five minutes or so.

Let's compare those two types of consulting. Expert witnesses. Most of us understand what that means. Basically, we will provide services to an attorney and usually picking one side or the other in this case because it's usually because of a lawsuit that has been filed. And in this case it's often a medical liability lawsuit. And so, as an expert witness, you can be on the side of the patient who's accusing the physician of doing something wrong or missing something or failing to document something or failing to communicate. There's a whole lot of reasons why you can get sued.

And other expert witness consultants are going to be on the acute side, the physician side, explaining why the physician really did follow the standard of care. And that sometimes things just don't go well because it's the nature of medicine. We all die, we all get sick, we all have injuries that hopefully we treat properly and within the scope of practice and within the standard of care.

Now, an expert witness, number one, it's a very highly compensated physician. Let's say that you're going to be an expert witness for a family physician. Let's say you're a family physician. Now many expert witnesses, of course, are board certified, fellowship trained even in specific subspecialties, but there are a lot of internists, ER docs, family physicians who do expert witness consulting because you just have to talk to the standard of care, which most of us know very well because we work in it every day.

But it's very good pay. So, we'll start with that. Let's say I'm on a three star scale. I would say its three stars. Really as a family physician or an internist, if you take all the hours you work doing your medical records and everything into account, you'd be lucky to make $100 to $150 an hour. Because usually, let's say you're making $200,000 to $300,000 a year. If you're working 60 or 70 hours a week, that doesn't come up to that much. As an expert witness, you are going to be charging 2, 3, 4 times that amount on an hourly basis, and you get paid for every minute you spend doing that work unlike in clinical practice, which is why the numbers don't look so good.

That's one good thing about being an expert witness. However, most expert witnesses have to be in practice, active practice because they start to lose their credibility if they start to do that full-time. You can definitely cut back on your hours in clinical. And what I often talk about is spending, let's say you could easily drop 20 hours of clinical practice to do 10 hours of expert witness care or expert witness consulting and make equal to or more than you would've clinically. So, it is very well paid, and the more experience you get and the more time you've done it, then the better the pay gets and you can charge higher levels.

As an expert witness, you're doing three things. Basically you are reviewing charts and writing reports about your opinion. And then you might be attending a deposition and you might end up testifying in court. Now, most attorneys don't like to... Well, it's not that they don't like to go to court, but they prefer to have a settlement if they can. I think the patients prefer that. Oftentimes the physician prefers that or whoever else is being sued.

When you're involved as an expert witness, you're doing mostly chart review and report, and then you're doing a smaller percentage of depositions and then some go quite a while before they ever have to testify in court. But eventually it will probably happen if you do it long term. You obviously need to be licensed because you need to be in practice and you probably need to be board certified to do that.

Now, there's a different type of expert consulting called medical-legal consulting, specifically as a terms coined by Dr. Armin Feldman, who to some extent has actually created this specialty. And what's nice about medical-legal consulting is it still pays very well, probably double what you would make an hourly basis as a physician.

But it does not require testimony in court. It does not require even doing a deposition. And you're not acting as an expert witness. What you're doing is you're reviewing records here, organizing records, summarizing records, and then providing feedback to the attorney about whether the case should be pursued or not.

And these cases, which usually fall into this category are personal injury cases, workers' comp, automobile accidents, which is a type of personal injury. And so, you're putting what can sometimes be a very complex situation and in which an insurance company has refused payment or the insurance company of a business has refused payment. You've heard of these cases, you've probably been involved in these cases where one of your patients gets injured and it's sometimes hard to know for sure how much is organic, how much is secondary gain, are there ways to sort that out?

And so, Dr. Feldman came up with this pre-litigation medical-legal consulting where you as a physician will help to sort through that. And the thing about this is you don't necessarily have to be in active practice to do this. You just need to have a medical degree. It helps to be board certified in something. You don't necessarily have to maintain your maintenance of certification because when you're doing these reviews, you've narrowed your focus now down to injuries. And really you just need to know the basic physiology and the basic approach to evaluation and treatment. You can learn as you go and you can become an expert in this area with just a little bit of time and effort. And you're not worried about having this go to court. If one of these does go to court and you need a medical expert, then that will be an expert witness consult that will take care of them.

But as a physician, you can analyze, and again, some nurses do this as well looking at it from the nursing standpoint, but physicians are in a particularly good position to say that within a reasonable degree of medical certainty, either A, this is caused by the accident or isn't. B, what are some of the unrecognized illnesses?

And your main goal is to try to maximize the support and the payments to the patient. And if you look at it from that perspective, you're not trying to gain the system or take advantage of the insurance company or the employer. Usually workers' comp covers this obviously, but you're just trying to make sure that all those things that resulted from the accident, from whatever happened, are fairly compensated. And we've all seen patients who have what seemed to be a minor accident and then a year or two later they're still having problems.

They might have developed some long-term complication, what we used to call reflex sympathetic dystrophy, which is severely debilitating. And there have been many times where patients were not compensated and didn't receive the care they needed for something that was a delayed result of an injury like that. So, it's really an interesting area.

Again, it involves interpreting and advising and translating information and then putting things into a report. Both of these that I've talked about today are good ways to reduce your burnout, do something that you enjoy, apply all the medical knowledge that you have garnered over the years to a particular field. And in the case of expert witness, over time you can cut back your clinical time to 10 or 20 or less hours a week, do some expert witness consulting and make a better income than you would have burning both ends of the candle doing clinical work.

And in the medical-legal consulting, again, you could do that part-time, you could do it full-time and you can definitely make a lot of income without the stress of working in a high pressure corporate style environment.

Now I want to talk to you a little bit about some resources that we have available to us. And some of these I have promoted in the past. I'm not an affiliate for either of these experts I'm going to mention, but let me just tell you what I know here. If you're interested in becoming an expert witness, there are courses you can take to build the business standpoint how to do that legally and how to set up things as well as understanding how attorneys think, how they speak and being able to talk their language.

I've had Dr. Gretchen Green on my podcast two or three times, and she produces a very, very good expert witness course. I think it's completed over four or five weeks. It's rather intense. It has a lot of homework, it has a lot of supporting materials. Really she's been doing this now for three or four years and I've spoken with some of her graduates and they are definitely pleased with it. So, you can find that at theexpertresource.com/enroll if you want to learn specifically about that course. Because I think she has some other courses.

Now, there's also another resource for becoming an expert witness, which is SEAK. It's the same organization that puts on an annual nonclinical career meeting on a weekend in October. I think they're up to the 14th or 15th iteration of that. But one of the things they're also well known for is teaching physicians how to learn to be an expert witness. They have resources where you can get your name put in these directories that they then share with attorneys.

There's a lot out there about becoming an expert witness. And rather than struggle through it, you'd probably be best to take advantage of one of these resources. I think the SEAK resources mainly are on a CD or online, although I think they also have a live version of that. That's just something to think about as you can kind of morph your practice into half expert witness, half regular clinical practice.

Now on the other side, medical-legal consulting, Dr. Armin Feldman has his course. He does it in different ways. I actually took his course over a period of four or five weeks. There was a series of videos although he also sometimes does a live version of that. He also has a one year coaching program where he'll walk you through the entire process. I think it's a combination of videos and a lot of coaching from him to where you can have your practice set up.

This could be something for people that are in active practice, something where you're maybe semi-retired and there are definitely retired physicians who do this as well. As long as you stay current in this particular field, you can write wonderful reports, really help your attorneys to decide whether to move forward, whether to settle and you help get your attorney client's patients all the help they need for some long chronic result of an injury that occurred either through an auto accident or work related.

Dr. Feldman's website is mdbizcon.com. If you go there, there is a little intro where you'll learn more about it and they'll give you an opportunity to learn in a really quick fashion. Again, I took the course. I have, I don't know how many files that I've downloaded and went through multiple times. He walks you through, he shows you how to create letters to generate business. So you've got setting up the business, marketing, and so forth.

A lot of things Gretchen Green talks about in her course. It's pretty similar no matter what sort of side gig you're doing, you got usually involved in setting up an LLC and setting up your accounting and then doing marketing, creating all the fields, maybe setting up a website. And these are the kind of things that they both talk about in their respective courses.

The other thing that Armin has, which is really interesting, is he created a podcast which is designed for the attorneys themselves so that they understand how to work with a medical legal consultant and help them understand the lingo that we're using. And that podcast is called Physicians Helping Attorneys Helping People, although if you look up Physicians Helping Attorneys, you'll get to it. I think it's got at least 30 or 40 episodes now. It was just started about a year or so ago. I've listened to just about every episode. It's extremely interesting and very helpful and for no cost whatsoever you can really get an idea of what a medical-legal consultant does in this role.

I'm just looking at my notes here to see if I forgot anything. Nope, I think that's it. Remember that in a lot of your nonclinical jobs, you're going to end up being in the middle as a consultant who does interpretations and helps other people understand the other side of the equation of whatever it is you're talking about. And specifically the medical-legal has a lot of opportunities. And you might consider expert witness consulting or medical legal pre-litigation consulting.

All right, with that, I will close for today and I hope to see you next week.

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The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Expert Witness or Medical Legal Consulting: Which Should You Pursue? appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today's podcast, Dr. Gretchen Green returns to explain how to be the best expert witness consultant you can be.

Gretchen started working as an expert witness in 2015 and has already worked on well over 100 cases. Doing so enabled her to switch to part-time clinical employment in 2016. Doing that provided more time for her family and financial independence. 

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Getting Started

Gretchen's journey started when her attorney praised her performance when she was sued early in her career. After the lawsuit was over, Gretchen decided to offer her services as an expert witness. It stoked her enthusiasm for critical thinking, and she began working as an expert witness in 2016.

According to Gretchen, the fact that physicians have years of education, training, and clinical experience is what qualifies them as experts. Learning what attorneys need, and how to efficiently review cases, prepare documents, and bill and collect for services are the additional skills needed to get started.

Becoming the Best Expert Witness

Dr. Green developed her first course over two years ago. She is preparing to present the sixth version, with new content based on what she has learned working on well over 100 cases to date. One of her goals in the course is to make her students the best expert witness for their clients.

A course like this provides the framework to know how to communicate with lawyers, how to review cases to complete the work, and ultimately how to approach this as a business. And this is an ideal way to generate extra revenue, allowing physicians to reduce practice hours and improve flexibility and control over their lives.

Dr. Gretchen Green's Advice on Independence and Freedom

…when you take action, when you just get started in something that's new, there's no telling what the tangible and intangible benefits are from it. This may be the thing that re-energizes your clinical career… and it's when you take steps to do some different things… The benefits are really just for yours in the taking…

Summary

Expert witness consulting is an ideal side business for practicing physicians. Because the hourly income is so much higher than that of clinical practice, physicians can work fewer hours, earn more income, and free up personal time for family and other interests. Gretchen has taken her experience with over 100 clients to help you become the best expert witness consultant possible.

You can learn more and enroll in the Expert Witness Startup School by clicking here. By using this link, should you enroll, you will also be invited to join one of the Nonclinical Physicians' Monthly Masterminds, where you will be challenged and held accountable as you build your new consulting business.

[Note: the above is an affiliate link, so I will receive a marketing fee if you purchase using it, but the pricing is exactly the same, and you get MY BONUS ONLY if you use this link.]

This enrollment period ENDS on August 29, 2022, at midnight.

CLICK HERE to CHECK OUT AND ENROLL in the EXPERT WITNESS STARTUP SCHOOL

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Expert Witness Start-up School [affiliate link that includes one year of monthly Nonclinical Mastermind meetings]
• Dr. Gretchen Green's Website
• Top Reasons to Become an Expert Witness Now – 163
• How to Develop a Side Gig as an Expert Witness with Dr. Peter Steinberg – 053
• NewScr!pt

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 262

How to Be the Best Expert Witness Consultant - Interview with Dr. Gretchen Green

John: About five years ago, I started my podcast and at the time it didn't seem like there were many resources for physicians who were looking to transition either part-time to a side gig or full-time out of clinical medicine and do something they could build on their background, but things have certainly changed. And I was talking to a colleague of mine back then. Well, this was really about three years ago saying we need to get a bunch of physicians who are experts in different areas to create resources like coaching programs and courses to teach them how to do some of these nonclinical activities.

And then about two years ago in 2020, I had the pleasure of interviewing on this podcast, Dr. Gretchen Green, because she had a fantastic program for teaching physicians how to do expert witness consulting, which is a really bonafide excellent side gig that allows you to maybe cut back on your clinical hours and do something on the side, have less call perhaps, and earn some income. So, we're going to talk about all those things today. We did, again, talk to her two years ago. We're not going to repeat everything we did then. So, first let me welcome Dr. Gretchen Green. Thanks for being here today.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Thanks so much for having me back.

John: Yeah, I needed to, because things have changed. We've gone through a pandemic and I can't believe that you're going to be opening the sixth iteration of your expert witness startup school soon. It has opened probably by the time this has been released. So, I guess I got to keep that in mind. So, thanks for coming.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yeah. It's great to have this opportunity, especially with so much rapid change during this time. We've got more to talk about and how expert witness work has continued to evolve in what has really been a very traditional field. The law field tends to be very traditional and very stable and very stuck in their ways. And yet even lawyers have shown great abilities to evolve just as we have in medicine.

John: Absolutely. Now give us a little background about how you got into this. We talked about it last time, but there are a lot of new listeners here. So, how is it that you became involved in expert witness consulting and then what prompted you to create the course?

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yeah, that's interesting. You and I had a very similar timeframe about five years ago now. It was in a major pivot point in our lives. I had been in private practice in a large radiology group in North Carolina as a partner for 10 years. And the time value, money, life quality equation was due to change. And so, I made a leap.

I had been sued actually very early in my career. And as part of that, my defense attorney said I did such a great job with my own case that I should consider being an expert witness after the conclusion of the case. And I really thought about it. I thought about how it fueled my fire for critical thinking, really energized a lot of my continued knowledge gathering as a radiologist, and it was a great fit. So, I couldn't do that as part of my previous job. And so, as part of other reasons, I then left and struck out on my own, took a part-time position, started doing expert witness work, really intently 2016 going into 2017.

John: And then somehow people were asking you to tell them what it was like and how to prepare. What was it that got you into the courses?

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yeah. And if you had asked me five years ago, what would I do as an entrepreneur after that point? I could never have predicted the different paths. Initially actually there was a middle point where I got into investing in real estate because I was looking for a way to leverage this side gig income, which three to four hours a week, you can make a $100,000 a year as an expert witness, but then it's very painful paying the highest marginal rate on those taxes. So, I actually got into building real estate and active real estate businesses as part of that.

And one thing led to the next, as part of learning that I got exposed to the digital course creation world. So then in the pandemic, it was March of 2020 when I had lawyers calling me who were part of my 8,000 plus lawyer network that I have asking, "Hey, we finally all have time on our hands. We've got these cases, but we're afraid to call you all because we think you're all saving the world from COVID." And I said, "Whoa, nothing could be further from the truth right now, like this horrible reality is we've got doctors, two thirds of whom are getting pay cuts are furloughed. This is what no one ever thought this Black Swan would look like. So, this is the perfect time to bring these two sides together, to help each other out in ways that maybe other people had never thought possible."

John: Oh, that was perfect. Perfect timing. There's been a lot of entrepreneurs who took advantage of the pandemic in a positive way. They had the time, or maybe they just gotten their appeal of to bike and get better shape, but people did use it productively to some extent. So that's cool. Well, we talked last time about the good things about entering this field, but I guess I wanted to ship because I'll put a link in my show notes to that previous episode, and everyone should listen to it if they're interested in this topic. But also, what I want to talk about today a little bit with you is what are those attributes or skills or things about a physician either that are intrinsic or that they learn to help them be the best expert witness they can be? Because it's not something you can just sort of do without thinking about and planning for.

Dr. Gretchen Green: The most important thing that most doctors have to accept in order to do this work is that the title expert witness you've already earned. That physicians by nature of our years of training, education skills, expertise, and clinical experience, that is what makes you an expert. It's your willingness to put those skills to work a little bit differently in the legal field to evaluate cases objectively and educate lawyers about your opinions. That's what takes some additional skills, but we're really good at doing that. We're really good at going into a new hospital system and figuring out electronic medical records or new clinical practice environments. We constantly adapt in medicine, even as we do a lot of our similar clinical skills.

So having a course like this gives you the structure to understand how to approach communications with lawyers, how to structure, how you review cases to do the work, and ultimately how to look at this also as a business, which is something a lot of doctors now who really want to take control of their finances want to do. And this is a perfect microcosm that helps you build some additional income and yet in a very manageable way that you control.

John: Yeah. I often get questions about in my area, like "If I want to go into hospital management or something, do I have to have a certain personality? Do I need to be an introvert or an extrovert or this or that?" And it's like, no, no. I've met people from all backgrounds, all personalities, they can all be good, medical directors, CMOs. You just have to learn those additional skills. Some of which they're transferable, but just some new skills and some new knowledge about how to do that and play to your strengths and you can do it. I'm assuming it's kind of the same with this.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Absolutely. And a lot of physicians, it's amazing to me, people with so much to give to the world, such a high level of skill and expertise would even be saying, "Is there any use for me in this?" Often people will ask me questions that start with phrases like "I'm just a da-da-da. I'm just an internal medicine doctor." And it's like, "Okay, step back a little bit here and think of the sentence you just said. I'd like you to rewind your life. Your entire life has been for this goal and you've given so much personally, professionally. You're not just anything."

And so, this is one of the great benefits of doing this work is you actually get paid what you're worth. And it's very rewarding. It's very intellectually workable. And every specialty pretty much has the opportunity because as long as there's clinical work happening in that specialty, there is a chance of liability from things that have gone wrong potentially. So, every specialty pretty much has the opportunity for this. And in fact, some of the general specialties, internal medicine, and family just by numbers are the most numerous. So, when you're going from a big denominator, you're going to have more work even than some subspecialty cases, neurosurgery, et cetera.

John: It's funny you say the word "just." I'm "just" this or that. I calculate it. Just primary care physicians have at least 15,000 hours of training, maybe 20,000. And when you get into subspecialties, you're over 20,000. That's enormous. And the attorneys need just this little bit of information out of that whole background that you have. I really have felt that this is the ideal side gig. Like I said, if you can cut your hours back clinically, make your life a little easier, work less hours, earn more and come to make up that difference and free up your life to spend time with your family and do other things.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Exactly. That's exactly my course. And I sort of sketched out goals over time. The 5-year, 10-year, 15-year plans. And I rapidly became busier than I could accommodate using my expert witness work and then with real estate and other things that I went back again on my clinical time. I now work two full clinical days a week and a part day, about three weeks a month. I have a total unicorn job. My group is just the best in the planet with these most amazing people who I get to work with and they value the skills that I bring back to the practice from this work. People have a lot of different opinions about is it good or bad? It's like, are you a good witch or a bad witch for doing this work?

But the fact is that the work needs doing. And so, we may as well have people bringing their best skills and understanding how to objectively review cases so that we can have at least positive impacts in the field. But yeah, it's definitely impacted my time. And so now, especially that expert witness work has become even more virtually based with depositions often being on Zoom, even some trials now, it's been more of an opportunity than ever to work in expert witness time into my own schedule, which has become busier and busier with other things.

John: Okay. Yeah. I want to make sure we spend a minute just talking about what else has changed. Maybe that's the main thing that has changed. The big question people often have as well. "If I'm doing this, how much time do I spend reviewing records?" Which sounds pretty straightforward. "How much time do I have to spend in a deposition? How much time do I have to spend testifying in court?" Which should be a pretty rare event. So, has that changed at all in the last three or four years? And tell us more about the remote situation. Can you do 100% remote almost?

Dr. Gretchen Green: It's almost 100%. Now the practical reality has been that a lot of trials were simply just deferred or canceled over the pandemic as courts were closed. Now we're still facing a backlog. We've still faced some ups and downs with variants that have affected different states and different courts, schedules. So, it's still probably slower from a trial standpoint than it has been in the past. But cases are going to trial. Things are catching up.

And just to give you an idea on the percentages. Per week I may spend a handful of hours doing case review. I've been retained in over 150 cases now over five years and yet it's very manageable and it's definitely less than the percentage of my time that I do my clinical work or other things. And that's important from a state compliance standpoint. You don't want to be doing way more expert witness work than you are in your clinical time. There is a balance that states do want but that's not hard to achieve just from the realities of life.

Depositions now, I'm doing as a pretty much a three-hour block. We schedule those at least 30 days in advance. And with the exception of one that has been hybrid, they've all been virtual. So those are all Zoom and it's done in a very confined timeframe for which I'm prepaid because I have to commit to that scheduled time. And that's an opportunity lost for other work of course

Case review is really as flexible as you want in your own time. I have had a couple cases that went to trial, but one of them, they deposed me in advance using a special deposition technique called it Day Bennet Essay deposition, which is just a formal term for we deposed you on Zoom before the trial and then play that deposition at trial instead of me coming to the testimony.

And then in one, we were due to start trial in about a week, but the plaintiff became critically ill. And so, they canceled the trial because if the plaintiff had died in the midst of trial, that would've resulted in a mistrial because I guess the damages in everything changes with the calculus. But otherwise, it's really been the most manageable now that it's ever been. And it's not going to change. Lawyers love doing... It's love-hate, right? We all hate some things about Zoom, but we love much more that I think we hate. And so, I don't see that they're going to just go back to all in person depositions, and now with trials and the opportunities to work with flexibility with schedules, I see that as a continued benefit.

John: Awesome. Wow. Yeah. I would not have known that unless you had been here explaining that to me today. All right. That's awesome. Okay. I want to stop for a second and give everyone your website. It's theexpertresource.com, correct?

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yes. It's www.theexpertresource.com.

John: And everything that anyone wants to learn about you in terms of what you're doing in your courses and so forth are available there. But we're going to go into a little detail here about the course, and then I have a link that might be a little easier for people if they want to go right to signing up for the course. But let's start. Anything different about the course over the last few years, or just give us a quick overview to cover those things.

Dr. Gretchen Green: One of the new benefits we have, and again, really a pandemic related improvement has been that we have a new opportunity for CME eligibility through a company cmefy.com. This is a group of super creative folks who have really improved the access to CME category one credits for digital courses and other little less traditional educational format products.

So now, this means that this course may be eligible to be paid for by your CME money. If you get that through your employer or your hospital. Even without that, it's still typically tax deductible as a business expense, even if you don't have a whole business LLC setup, which I do address in the course. But even without that, it's typically tax deductible. At any rate, the course pays for itself with your first case that you get retained and pays dividends multiplied when you start billing at the right level from the beginning and don't undervalue your time.

John: Yeah, I would think in just broad strokes that if I were taking a course like this, I'd want to learn just the nuts and bolts of being an expert witness, how do I prepare, how do I review things, how do I interact with attorneys? And then the other half has got to be okay, we want to protect ourselves who like any small business. So, I need to kind of set that up. So how should I set it up as a consultant? I'm assuming what I know is that those are definitely covered in depth in the course.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yes, I have a dedicated module. That's a bonus module for business building. I also have a separate masterclass that's on money and marketing because a lot of doctors need some extra guidance and exposure to other experts who do that. But this is something that's very doable and these skills are very translatable then to doing other projects that you may want to do in your life, or again, just doing expert witness work, but with it being as a business itself.

John: Okay. That's nice because you're right. Anything we do as a side gig, you should have some kind of legal... I hate to just say an LLC, but that's usually what it turns out to be, but some kind of legal structure and understanding how to set things up and how to organize things. So, that's useful in and of itself. But tell me if you can, what the results may have been for some of your students, because you've been doing this long enough. And I haven't heard any kind of feedback on that. I'd love to hear that.

Dr. Gretchen Green: This has been really exciting even though it's only been two years and the average malpractice case can go on for years. I have cases still from 2019. So, three plus years is not unusual for a total lifetime. And even with pandemic delaying so many cases from progressing. I have had students even from the spring course of last year who have completed trials. So, I get to see their pictures in our Facebook group for the expert resource with them, showing themselves in their hotel room, wearing their suit, ready to go to the courthouse. Folks who have been so happy about deposition preparation, who have really felt that they did a great job, became prepared, they were confident.

And probably the most telling are the ones who will message me and just say, "Hey, I can't even tell you how my life has changed having this financially in my life. Having this ability, it has changed my life, being in charge of this and having the opportunity." Again, all this is, is putting your skills to work for money. That's what work is. And it's a great way, a very gratifying way to do it in a way that is needed.

John: Yeah. Your comment about how long cases can take. I've been involved in several malpractices and some were just other things. There are typically five years. There is that long period of time, but there's a lot of need along the way for reviewing things and updating things. And so, I wouldn't be afraid of that. It doesn't really matter to the medical consultant how long it takes. You're there just to provide your expertise, I would imagine.

Boy, if I was younger, I think I'd really look at doing something like this. I was deposed a couple of times and I kind of enjoyed it. You prepare for it and you just answer straightforwardly and you keep your cool, which you should really, you're a professional, so that should be simple. So yeah, I'm glad to hear that you've had great success with the people that have gone through the course and continue to interact with you with the Facebook group and otherwise.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Yeah. People will email me, they'll message me. And I think another benefit that we're probably just beginning to see is that physicians who are well versed in the medical malpractice environment may themselves be less likely to get sued. It may also improve the quality of care when they're practicing. Not defensively. Not defensively ordering exams and overdoing, but from truly a proactive sense of better practice of being informed about consensus statements, white papers, really keeping on top of literature and the best thing that this does at the end of the day is it improves patient care. It makes us better doctors.

John: Oh no, that's absolutely true. Nothing would teach a physician how to document better than being deposed. Because they're just looking at your records, let's say as a defendant. Not now as a consultant, but even as an expert witness, you're going to learn these things that the importance of how you document and when you document and everything else that goes into taking care of a patient and how it can impact on a potential lawsuit. It's eye opening. I would say definitely just going through this course would help that whether you ever serve as an expert witness or not.

Dr. Gretchen Green: True, true. And if you were ever yourself sued, even bet that you're going to put all these skills to work and more, and then you are your own benefit of your own expertise as well.

John: All right. That's absolutely true. Okay. Well, I've been lucky enough. I was able to help support you last time and I'm going to do it again this time. Not just through the podcast, but I'll have some links, which I will mention now. So, if my listeners go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/ewcourse, it will bring you directly to a page. It will explain in detail what the course is like and how to sign up. It's not mandatory. You can go and just check it out. So, I will put that link in my show notes, but if you're not looking at the show notes, again, it's nonclinicalphysicians.com/ewcourse. I'll be mentioning it in some of my emails that most of you get.

All right. Well, let's see, Gretchen. Any last-minute comments or advice for physicians who are maybe in general just looking for a way to find more independence and freedom? They could do this, but in general, what's your experience in dealing with physicians that are kind of burned out, looking for other things to do?

Dr. Gretchen Green: I think this comes to your mission where you're providing information about doing things beyond the scope of typical clinical practice in medicine. When you take action, when you just get started in something that's new, there's no telling what the tangible and intangible benefits are from it. This may be the thing that re-energizes your clinical career, or as you've discussed in some recent podcasts about serving on nonprofit boards, the world is full of opportunities outside the clinical office. And it's when you take some steps to do some different things, where really the entry curve it's not a steep learning curve compared to learning how to do cardiothoracic surgery. It's just not as hard as that. The benefits are really just for yours in the making. So, I thank you so much for your support of the course, and I'm really happy that this link will help support your programs as well. And I'm just glad to be part of this community of physicians helping other physicians.

John: Yeah. You've been a real useful part of it for many physicians. We've learned some things today that we can use probably. And if we want to learn more, then we'll have that link and I'll send people to that. And I really look forward to hearing about how the next course goes. And maybe we'll have you again in a year or two and see what has transpired, because I know you're working on some new things. Well, that'll be our tease for the next time.

Dr. Gretchen Green: That's right. Well, thanks so much for having me.

John: It's been my pleasure. Thanks Gretchen. Bye-bye.

Dr. Gretchen Green: Thank you.

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The post How to Be the Best Expert Witness Consultant – 262 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In this week's podcast episode, Dr. Gretchen Green explains how she became an expert witness, and how she opened her expert witness consulting business.

Gretchen describes how her expert witness business allowed her to cut back on clinical work, find more freedom, spend more time with her family, and make more money.

If you want to diversify your income with a side hustle that is intellectually stimulating and flexible, that builds on your medical knowledge and that pays really well, you are going to love today’s guest.

Our Sponsor

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Graduates have taken leadership positions at major healthcare organizations. And they've become entrepreneurs and business owners.

By joining the University of Tennessee physician executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills needed to find a career that you really love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Exploring a New Opportunity

Dr. Gretchen Green has been a diagnostic radiologist since 2006. She completed her medical degree at Brown University Medical School. She followed medical school with a residency in diagnostic radiology at Yale University School of Medicine and a Women’s Imaging Fellowship at Harvard Medical School.

Gretchen did not intend to become an expert witness. However, she was contacted by an attorney who needed an expert witness with a background matching Gretchen's. She agreed to work on that case and found that she really enjoyed the work. She cut her clinical work back and studied the field and honed her skills over the past five years.

Gretchen has served as an expert witness in dozens of cases for both plaintiff and defense attorneys. This enabled her to transition to part-time clinical work in 2016 and create more time for her family. She developed an online course devoted to becoming an expert witness called Expert Witness Start-Up School.

Become an Expert Witness

During our conversation,  you'll learn exactly what an expert witness does, why it is such a great side job and the potential income that can be produced. Then we’ll talk a bit about the course she has created for physicians who want to become an expert witness and quickly build their expert witness business.

Expert witness work helped me transition to part-time clinical work in 2016 and have more time with family and for myself. It enabled me to have financial freedom to design my best life. – Dr. Gretchen Green

Here is your call to action: if you have the slightest inkling that becoming an expert witness is an option for you, you can learn a whole lot more about it at nonclinicalphysicians.com/ewcourse.

Summary

There is a short period of time to sign up. And once the course begins it will not be open again until sometime next year. So, I would not hesitate, especially if you find yourself with some extra time due to the current pandemic. So, give it a look at nonclinicalphysicians.com/ewcourse, which is an affiliate link, so I receive compensation if you sign up using the link, but the price is exactly the same.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Expert Witness Start-Up School
• John's Replay Episode on Next Level Physicians with Maiysha Clairborne
• Maiysha Clairborne's One Year Anniversary Celebration Podcast Episode

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The post Top Reasons to Become an Expert Witness Now – 163 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

But before we get into today’s exciting interview, I need to tell you that today’s episode is sponsored by my NEW focused mentoring program called Become CMO in a Year.

In this program, you’ll launch your career as a hospital or medical group Chief Medical Officer. In three to four weeks, we develop a plan to obtain the necessary experience to make you attractive to recruiters and health system CEOs.

To learn more about the program, visit vitalpe.net/cmomentor. The introductory price of $229 is available to the first ten students who sign up before October 1st. Unfortunately, only a few slots remain. So, time is running out. After October 1st, 2018, the price returns to $459.

OK, let’s get to today’s interview.

Enter Dr. Steinberg

Dr. Peter Steinberg is a board-certified urologist. He's also the director of endourology and kidney stone management at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, one of the Harvard Medical School teaching hospitals. He graduated from the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. He then completed a urology residency at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center, and an Endourology Fellowship at Montefiore Medical Center.

Photo by Claire Anderson on Unsplash

His interests include medical malpractice, expert witness, patient safety, communication in the operating room, and medical writing. He also enjoys consulting related to medications and devices, health care venture capital, angel investing and public speaking. Of interest to us, he has extensive experience as a urological expert witness. He has been a guest on several other podcasts, including “The White Coat Investor” and “Radical Personal Finance”.

This work seems like a really good way to augment your clinical practice. It's like the ultimate moonlighting. You can earn MORE on an hourly basis than working clinically.

You should recall that work as an expert witness allows you to create beneficial tax-favored retirement accounts. These include options such as a SEP-IRA or a Solo 401(k). I’m not an accountant, so don’t rely on my advice on retirement accounts. But check it out if you work as an independent contractor in this, or any other, capacity.

Click here to download the TRANSCRIPT

How to Become an Expert Witness

Here are some of the topics we talked about:

• Resources provided by the American Urological Association, including a registry, and policies to apply when working as an expert witness.
• Three big reasons Peter enjoys his work as an expert witness, with a full discussion of the income opportunities.
• The three major duties of an expert witness, which include chart reviews, depositions and, rarely, testifying at trial.
• Other resources for those wishing to pursue this career.

You can connect with Peter on LinkedIn – just search for Peter Steinberg MD.

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Next week’s episode is still being selected, so don’t miss it.

Thanks again for listening. I hope to see you next time on Physician NonClinical Careers.

As always, I welcome your comments and feedback.

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Disclaimer:

The opinions expressed herein are those of me, and my guest where applicable. And, while the information published in written and audio form on the podcast are true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed herein will lead to success in your career, life or business.

The opinions are my own, and my guest's, and not those of any organization(s) that I'm a member of, or affiliated with. The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. They should not be construed as advice, such a medical, legal, tax, emotional or other types of advice.

If you take action on any information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult a professional, e.g., attorney, accountant, career counsellor, etc., before making any major decisions related to the subject matter of the blog and podcast.

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The post How to Develop a Side Gig as an Expert Witness with Dr. Peter Steinberg – 053 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.