This week John spends a few minutes sharing his thoughts on one of three popular full-time careers when preparing to “level up.”

Today John delves into the idea of “leveling up”- a journey of self-improvement that can lead you to a more satisfying and financially rewarding career. Drawing inspiration from professional athletes and attorneys he shares how to take stock of your strengths, identify areas for growth, and set new goals to help you become the best version of yourself.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Three Most Popular Full-time Careers for Physicians Seeking a Change

Suppose you’re a physician considering a career shift. In that case, John highlights three nonclinical roles that might be perfect for you: hospital Chief Medical Officer (CMO), pharma Medical Science Liaison (MSL), and insurance company Utilization Management (UM) Medical Director. These roles offer improved work-life balance, competitive pay, and full-time opportunities with major organizations. John describes each popular full-time career and how you can smoothly transition.

Your Network is Your Net Worth: Resources to Help You Succeed

Transitioning to a new career isn’t just about what you know, it’s also about who you know. In this section, Dr. John reminds us of the importance of building a strong professional network and leveraging resources like LinkedIn, the American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL), and the MSL Society. He also recommends joining online communities like the Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook group, where you can connect with others who’ve made similar transitions and get advice on your next steps.

Summary

Sometimes it makes sense to level up your career to one that offers better pay and work-life balance. The three options described today have demonstrated that they generally meet those goals. If you're looking for full-time employment in a well-established industry John advises you to consider one of these popular options. 

Links for Today's Episode:

• How to Become CMO in a Year – 052
• 4 Things the CMO Should Never Say to the CEO – 251
• Hospital Management Career Bundle Tactics to Quickly Prepare for a Hospital Management Job
• Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job
• Complete the Journey to Your First Fabulous MSL Job – 277
• Build a Rewarding Career as an MSL – Use Coupon Code HALFOFF to purchase for only $198
• How To Secure Your First Utilization Management Job
• The Truth About Medical Specialists and UM Jobs
• American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL)
• Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook Group
• MSL Society
• Check out the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit to learn about MORE career options.

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 368

First Consider the Most Popular Full-Time Careers

John: Okay, nonclinical nation, many of you are ready to make a change in your professional life. It may be because you're frustrated and your work-life balance is shot, or maybe it's just because you're ready to level up.

What do I mean by leveling up? Well, leveling up can be described as a process of self-development or to become a better version of yourself. This can include identifying weaknesses and strengths, setting goals, replacing old habits with new habits, focus on success, and possibly moving to a career that's more satisfying and financially rewarding.

As I was thinking about this concept, I was trying to get examples, and I have two examples that really come to mind.

The first one is professional athletes. Some professional athletes are forced to retire. Some just reach their peak and decide after they've done everything they want to do, they just retire, but they have a lot of notoriety and they have hopefully saved up some money. And again, it's kind of parallel to what physicians can do.

I think of examples like those of Magic Johnson's business ventures in broadcasting, music, film, and finance, or John Elway's investments in dealerships in the Denver area that he said later sold off, and then him investing in the Colorado Crush of the Arena Football League in 2002. And of course, many successful athletes have finished their careers as athletes, and then leveled up to do something else very powerful.

Now, those might seem like outliers. Maybe those are just a select few, but I also think of attorneys. There are many attorneys who never practice, or let's say they finish law school, they pass their bar, and they do work for a while in the industry, in law, doing something, but then they find that they can take everything they've learned in law school and with their early experiences as an attorney and segue into another career, which they level up.

You can look around and see a lot of attorneys working in C suite of various companies, not actually practicing law, but applying what they learned as leaders, as researchers, as presenters, and they apply to the new job. You're an attorney and you have a background in healthcare law, well, you can do that with a big firm, or you can actually go and become part of a team to run a healthcare organization, and obviously all those skills will come in handy.

I interviewed somebody who was trained as an attorney. He, for a little while, was helping physicians with their contract negotiations as an attorney. What he did was leverage that to become more of an agent. He helps physicians negotiate better contracts as an agent, but not as an attorney. In fact, he still has attorneys review the contracts. That's a way to level up.

I think the physicians can do the same thing. Healthcare is the largest industry in the United States, and there are positions for physicians in every major aspect of healthcare. Maybe it's natural to think after a few years of being in the trenches and seeing patients, at some point it gets old, and now you look for the next challenge, and that's what we call leveling up.

And so, I want to talk about three of the positions that you should consider, particularly if you're in a big hurry. Now, you can spend six, 12, 18 months researching all of the possible nonclinical careers out there, but if you're looking for a particular type of career that I'll mention in a minute, then maybe you should select from one of the three most commonly pursued careers and go from there, and that's what I'm going to talk about today, the pros, the cons, some of the tactics for doing this, and so forth. They definitely provide a better lifestyle, and they pay well, and so I thought I would focus on those today.

Those careers are those of a chief medical officer at a hospital or health system, medical science liaison, or UM medical director. Now, they're all full-time jobs. We're not going to mess around with starting a new business or getting a part-time job and then segwaying to maybe looking for two or three different part-time jobs that you can patch together like I've talked about before, but these are full-time jobs. They involve employment with a large organization. They have a lot of the usual benefits that only large organizations provide, and they're really seen by physicians as very, very viable options. And so, I thought, "Well, if I can provide examples of these three and tell you a little bit about each of them, maybe that can kind of jumpstart your process of leveling up."

All right, I have definitely interviewed multiple physicians doing all of these jobs. I personally have been a chief medical officer, know many other chief medical officers and other senior executives in hospitals that are physicians. I've interviewed many medical science liaisons, which represents the pharma industry. And then the third is, again, one of the most common, and maybe somewhat underappreciated, and that's being a medical director for a health insurance company, or you might call them a healthcare payer, one of the big ones. That's what I want to talk about today.

Let's talk about the chief medical officer first. What about that? How do we do that? And one of the things that comes up, because maybe I'm comparing these three directly, and it's a little bit, I wouldn't say disingenuous, but it's not correct to, let's say, talk about a new MSL and someone who's becoming a new CMO. CMO is a pretty high-level position. Now, I was going to talk about medical directors in the hospital setting, and it is the stepping stone to becoming a CMO. Both those jobs pay well, they have great benefits, and the lifestyle is much better than, let's say, a practicing physician as an anesthesiologist or an ER doctor in the hospital.

But most medical directors that work in the hospital setting are medical directors for a service line, which means they're usually practicing at least half-time as well. I wouldn't want to call that medical director position as a full-time position. Now, there are some full-time medical director positions. If you're in a large enough hospital and you can be a medical director for quality improvement or for informatics or for utilization management or, let's say, even coding and documentation, those can all be full-time jobs. They can pay well. You can replace your clinical salary for sure. And they do serve as a stepping stone, though, to the ultimate hospital environment job, which would be that of a chief medical officer or one of the other senior positions like chief medical information officer or chief quality officer, something like that.

Now, as far as getting from your medical director role up to the CMO role, which is that last step before, but you could eventually become a COO or even a CEO of a hospital. But in focusing on the CMO role, you're going to do some of these things that we will talk about with all three positions, really.

Maybe a little different here. You might want to get an executive coach or mentor. You definitely want to join LinkedIn because you're going to do a lot of your networking and looking for jobs on LinkedIn if you don't have a way to segue up to the current institution where you're already working.

One of the resources is the AAPL, which is the American Association for Physician Leadership, which is at physicianleaders.org. They have a bunch of books. There's a bunch of other books you can look at for healthcare finances and leadership and so forth.

And the question with that job is, "Does it require relocation?" If you're in a large metropolitan area, there's probably multiple systems where you could look for a job, but it's not uncommon to be able to work your way up an institution's hierarchy, work as a medical director, take on more responsibility over time while you gradually decrease your practice. And ultimately, while you might keep your license, you reach a point where you really don't need a license.

I would maintain it only because sometimes when you're looking to change to a CMO role at another organization, they want you to have the license. I think sometimes that's because they might be using your license for some things, having to do with the pharmacy or covering for ordering drugs for different units. But ultimately, you won't really need to have that license because you're no longer seeing patients. Although as a CMO, you can continue to see patients once a week or every other week or so if you want to continue to do that.

But it's one of those jobs that you should think of right off the bat if you're in a position that enables you to pursue that kind of job. It's not right for everybody. If you're a dermatologist working in an outpatient setting or if you've never had privileges at a hospital, it makes it difficult to start that job search from nothing as opposed to being one of these people in the hospital that are there all the time, the emergency physicians, anesthesiologists and various surgeons and so forth. Geriatricians and hospitalists are typical, very common to move up that path. So that's the first one.

With that, I think I'll move on to the next one, which is medical science liaison. We've talked about this before. It's a very common and attractive position. It really doesn't require any special background. I think it's helpful if you have experience in working with particular drugs or drug classes. It's kind of whatever's popular at the time. Oncologists typically can get into pharma very easily. They'll often go into more of the clinical research side of things, but as an oncologist, it would be very easy to become an MSL, but also pretty much anyone who's using certain drugs and classes of drugs, whether it's cardiology, even gynecologists and family physicians, internists for sure. There's a big push in GI drugs lately. So if you were doing GI work and wanted to transition to this role, it'd probably be fairly easily.

And there are even positions for people that don't have a residency and haven't been in practice, but we're really focusing on those who have been in practice and want to level up to something new with a better lifestyle, but actually paying equal to or more in the long run than what you're doing now. And as I said, we're going to focus on some of those drugs to help convince our new employer.

As far as resources to try and move into this role, you want to commiserate with others that are doing it, you want to go on LinkedIn, you want to have a great profile. This applies to all three. Great LinkedIn profile, networking on LinkedIn, engage with peers. You can join the MSL Society, which the link there is themsls.org. They have a lot in there for people who are already medical science liaisons, but you can imagine just taking a few entry-level courses and reading about becoming an MSL and being an MSL and exceeding and excelling as an MSL would be very helpful. And in addition, you'll learn the language that they speak.

And when you're doing interviews and submitting your resume, you want to sprinkle those and your LinkedIn profile with the vernacular that's not used outside of the pharma industry. And some of it's not even used by anyone other than medical science liaisons. I do also mention the Contract Research Organization, CRO, because you can work directly for a pharmaceutical company as an MSL, but a lot of MSLs work for contract research organizations.

A CRO has different names, it could be the Contract Research Organization, it could be Contract Resource Organization, but they provide resources to pharma companies for those things that they don't want to keep hiring for. And sometimes it's MSLs, it can be other things, it could be the components that actually provide the studies, that monitor the studies and so forth.

You oftentimes will find that CROs are hiring medical science liaisons a little quicker than the pharmaceutical companies go. And all of these things are dependent on what is going on in the industry, how much demand there is based on what new drugs are being released by various companies. And it's at that point of release that MSLs get heavily involved. It's an educational role, it's not a marketing or sales role.

I remember once talking to a guest who's a pediatrician and she didn't think there was any way she could be employed by a pharma company, but because of all the experience she had with vaccines, they happened to be looking for somebody that had that experience and she was able to get a job. And I think initially she was employed by a CRO and then later moved up to a full-time position either with the CRO or with the pharma company itself. That's the second one I wanted to mention today. Don't forget to look at the MSL Society to get some ideas on how to approach that goal.

The last one I want to talk about today, again, one of the big three, is working as a medical director for a utilization management company, working for a large payer. Again, that doesn't require any special background. If you've done chart reviews before in the hospital setting, particularly maybe you've been a physician advisor for UM in the hospital, that might help. All the big insurance companies hire these people, but they also sometimes farm this out to something called an IRO, which is an independent review organization.

And so, many people when they're starting out and becoming a UM or a benefits management medical director, they'll apply at an IRO first and they'll find a job part-time. This is the one that's a little easier to do, kind of the pilots where you're still doing your old job. You're doing some part-time chart reviews for an IRO and then some IROs will hire you full-time.

One of my colleagues really, he hasn't been a guest on the podcast yet. I'm probably going to have him on someday, but he was a surgeon and he just wanted to spend more time with his kids. And he thought, "Well, I don't know. I make a fair amount of money as a surgeon but I'm not having any time with my kids. I'm not spending enough time with my kids. They're growing up, I'm missing on that." And he said, "I'm going to level up to one of these different careers." And so, he did start working as a medical director for an independent review organization and he actually really enjoys it. In addition to doing general sort of chart review work, he's also serving as a resource for those surgical cases. So you can always get that. Even if you're a specialist, sometimes they have special roles for you. One of my other guests or the other one that was a guest as opposed to this first example, he was an invasive cardiologist for pediatrics.

And yeah, he's been working at a health system or a health insurer rather for gosh, at least five or six years now since I interviewed him. And he's very happy and he actually helps other people do that. The resources for that, besides looking around for IROs, if you want a list of some of the IROs, they're basically the ones that are certified. You can go to NAIRO, which is the National Association of IROs at nairo.org/members. You'll get a list of all the NAIRO members and you can go look at their websites to see if they're hiring the type of medical director that you might be looking at. And again, these can be for part-time positions to get you started, to get you exposed.

You can also go to Facebook and look for the Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook group. It's got at least 10,000 members now. It's pretty big group. And everybody in there is kind of talking about working as a payer or a health insurer UM medical director and other associated types of positions.

All the big insurance companies definitely will hire these people as well. Whether we're talking about Cigna or Centene or several others, any of the big ones, they all have them. But they also outsource some of the work to the IROs. Again, I will remind you that for all these positions, it's important to be on LinkedIn. It's important to have a complete profile. It's important to use LinkedIn and sometimes Doximity to locate your colleagues and network with them. See if some of them are already doing one of these jobs.

Like I said, maybe it's time to level up and this is how you can get started. And if one of these three positions sounds right for you, then you can just jump in now and start working on it and see what you think.

The other thing I would say is besides what I've already mentioned in terms of the benefits is they have great benefit packages in most of these places. You've got health insurance, disability insurance, retirement plans, four to six weeks of paid time off. And some of them will even give physicians deferred compensation benefits. So that can be nice for your retirement planning.

Well, I guess that's it for today's discussion. Thousands of physicians literally just in the last few years have found happiness in each of these three careers. They all offer full-time salaries, generally good benefits, and there are resources that can help you get started. Just check out those resources and get going. And if you have any questions, you can always contact me.

If you want to access everything that I've talked about today easily, you can go to the show notes. You'll also get a link to the podcast episode. You'll get related links, several related links actually and the transcript. And you can find all that at nonclinicalphysicians.com/popular-full-time-careers.

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Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post First Consider The Most Popular Full-Time Careers appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This week you will hear priceless advice from an expert in biopharma, Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley. She also brings her experience as a physician career coach and mentor to bear during our conversation.

Over the past five years, Michelle has made significant strides in her biotech career. And she offers valuable insights and advice for physicians looking to transition into the industry.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Power of Relationships in Career Transitions

Michelle highlights the critical role of networking in securing nonclinical roles. “These jobs are all about relationships. Often, you end up getting a job not because you’re the best fit, but because you know someone,” she explains.

She recommends using platforms like LinkedIn and Doximity to connect with industry professionals and seek advice and opportunities.

Priceless Advice from an Expert

When pursuing a job in the biopharma sector, Michelle advises against additional certifications or degrees as the first step. Instead, she suggests focusing on building transferable skills and relationships within the industry. “You shouldn’t have to jump through hoops to get a job. You likely already have the knowledge and skills needed,” she assures.

She also advises us to explore the Medical Affairs Professional Society for useful advice and information.

Encouragement for Aspiring Biopharma Professionals

Don’t lose confidence in yourself. We all face rejection and setbacks, but remember, you are good enough for these roles. Keep believing in yourself and stay persistent. – Michelle Mudge-Riley

Summary

To connect with Dr. Mudge-Riley and learn from her experiences, you can find her on LinkedIn, another resource for priceless advice from an expert. She also recommends checking out the Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS) as a fantastic resource for networking and professional growth in the medical affairs field.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley's LinkedIn
• Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS) 
• The Best Biopharma Positions For Motivated Practicing Physicians
• Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job
• Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job: A PNC Classic from 2021
• Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311
• Research and Development in Nonclinical Pharma Careers
• The Wonderful World of Nonclinical Pharma Careers

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 364

Priceless Advice From An Expert In The BioPharma Industry

- Interview with Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley

John: I'm so happy to welcome today's guest back to the podcast. She's been on the podcast before, but it has been quite a while. She's known as an expert in career transition through coaching and live events, but really she has become an expert in biopharma because she's been working in biopharma and doing some pretty interesting things. I'm really happy to welcome Michelle Mudge-Riley here to the podcast. Hi, Michelle.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Hi, John. So nice to be back with you again.

John: It's great to see you. We were just reminiscing before we started our interview here, but why don't you fill us in a little bit with the highlights of what has transpired in the last five years, let's say, because that's almost as long as it's been since we spoke on the podcast.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Sure. Sounds good. And it really is unbelievable that it's been five years. I know it seems a long time when you're looking at it day to day, but there's so many things you look back and you think, wow, it's been five years or it's been 10 years or it's been years. And yeah, this is a perfect example of that. Yeah, I was the doctor's doctor known as that probably 10, 8 years ago, as I had a thriving business as a career transition coach for physicians. I ran an online and in-person conference. And I also worked for a small boutique consulting company at the time, which enabled me to do a lot of these extra things on the side.

And in my role in that consulting company, I was the medical director for small, medium and large biotech companies. I really enjoyed doing that as well as my side gigs. When COVID hit, that changed everything for everyone. And I won't get into the things that I did with my side gig at that point, but I made some personal decisions that I wanted to look back at my career and have something a little bit different than what I was currently doing. It was like a lot of people, a good time for a change. And that biggest change was that I really wanted to go to the client side, work for a biotech company and experience what it was like on that side versus the consulting side. That's where we were back in 2020.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Now that's a big commitment to make, because you had been doing different things. And of course, even way back before all that, you had a master's degree and did other things as a physician, but that's a big commitment. And as I saw what you were doing, because I could always look on LinkedIn and hopefully you were keeping that up to date. I could see that you were getting involved in more and more different things. I thought you'd be perfect to give us another perspective. I've interviewed a few people working in pharma, but it's usually a specific position we focus on, but I think you can give me a little more of a better perspective, because knowing how physicians are searching for jobs that are more fulfilling and satisfying, and a lot have thought about how can I get into biopharma? So that's why I thought I'd have you come back and enlighten us a little bit today. What is it that interested you about biotech and pharma personally?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, great, great question here. When I started to make my transition over 20 years ago from clinical practice, I considered biotech and pharma and device, and actually did not consider it as seriously as I should have. I thought it was the dark side. I thought it's an easy choice. If you don't want to be a practicing physician, you think about insurance, or you think about pharma. And I didn't want to be such a clich�.

I dabbled a little, but ended up, you're right, getting a master's degree, getting a nutrition, additional training there. I worked for a number of different firms, an employee benefits firm, and then multiple consulting firms. I started some other businesses. And I slowly was always seeing this common thread of being involved with biotech in some way. And I can tell you that what I have done for the past five years has been so fulfilling and so much fun. It's completely changed my life being working directly for a biotech company. And I will most likely finish out my career doing this.

I still have some side gigs. I think that's important. I've always talked about multiple irons in the fire, because it's really easy to get so caught up in the day to day. And you never really know what's going to happen. COVID's another great example, never saw that coming. So making sure that you're diversifying yourself and your career, I still maintain that that's really, really important within compliance, of course, if you're working for a company, that's going to be an issue, which we won't go into today. But it's really fascinating how much fun it is working for biotech. And I know we're going to talk a little bit about that today.

John: Yeah. Well, what's so fun about it? What is it that you personally find to be the fun parts? Because something that's fun for you might not be fun for somebody else. But for you personally, what is it that you like about being involved with the type of company that you are?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, there are two big things that I love about my job. And one is the actual work. And that was something that I've always talked about as being really important, but really hard to find with a career, because you may be influenced by your boss or your colleagues or the autonomy or lack thereof, or all of these other little things, which are also important, by the way. But if you don't like the work, that will drive you to burnout and to just being not your best self.

And so, for me, the work is something I love. I love being able to be able to understand the scientific articles and explain them to others, talk amongst my colleagues about the science and the medicine aspects, learn the new things that we don't learn in medical school about clinical trials and all the aspects. Working with the FDA, looking at the different clinical endpoints, inclusion criteria, talking about the criticisms of different trials and how they compare or don't, and working with other physicians who are experts in the field.

We should get into that too, because that's really interesting working with other physicians, because most people in my position at a pharmaceutical company or device company, they are physicians or their PhDs. And so, how does that differ from the physicians that I work with that are still in practice? But that's an aspect I really, really like as well.

The last part about what I really like about my job is working with very smart and really quirky colleagues. Anyone who's really smart, I feel like has some unique aspect about them that kind of makes them quirky. And I love that about people, just finding out what their unique characteristics are and being able to talk with them about science and just really high level complex stuff, but also get to know them as people and what their hobbies are, what they like to do. They like to go axe throwing or something else that you wouldn't think about. And most people would never think about doing either. Typically people in these companies, they have these really cool hobbies that you then get to learn about.

John: It reminds me about some of the things when I was chief medical officer and thinking back, what did I really like? I really liked the science behind the quality improvement. I would sit in my office by myself creating reports for the board and that. And so, I'm more of an introvert, but that's what I liked. And I had no trouble spending two or three hours doing this report and then explaining it to, let's say, the board or somebody else.

The other thing you mentioned, like the quirky people, our CMO was a nurse. CMO, he was a nurse of course. And he raised chickens. I'm like, okay, there's a weird quirky thing to do. And he'd go to not conferences, but they'd have these shows where he could find the best new chicken breed out there. It's like, you got to be kidding me. But yeah, it's good. It's different than being face-to-face with patients all day. And you do get to interact with physicians in other realms clinically. And the thing again about the pharma and the biotech, it's so scientific. If you have a scientific mind, I think you really fit in well there.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. Yes. I completely agree. I have a colleague who likes to fix coffee makers. How interesting is that? And how different? I would not really thought about doing that, but yeah, just buying coffee makers that may have a small problem and fixing them, making them look really good and selling them. It's interesting.

John: That's interesting. And if yours breaks down, well, you know where to go.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Right. Exactly.

John: To be an entrepreneur and to have to build something yourself is one thing, but tell me, there was something very comforting about being part of a large corporation and probably most pharma companies are massively larger than let's say a hospital that I worked for, but there was just a consistency and the hours were regular and there was a nice IRA or whatever, but that wasn't a pension anymore. But yeah, they had that all worked out. So you find some of that helpful and beneficial as well?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. I think the constant struggle of an entrepreneur is can get old and that grind can get to be something that I've spoken with other physicians who have started companies, sold companies, and then moved into more of a corporate job or just a job where they receive a regular paycheck. It's part of that. Yes. But I will say that in biotech, it's not a massive company all the time that there are really small biotech pharma device companies and they have a different culture than the larger companies. So if someone has tried this before and they haven't really flourished in the way that they want, maybe it's just a matter of a small company versus a large company.

John: How do you prepare for that? What advice do you have? Is there something I can do ahead of time that gives me just a little bit of exposure, maybe a little certain skills that would be good for biotech versus a large pharma company, something like that. Any thoughts on that?Dr.

Michelle Mudge-Riley: It's really hard because you'll hear about physicians and others who have tried for years to get into a biotech company or an insurance company or just to get into this nonclinical career space and have had a lot of difficulty. And so that's a common question. What sort of certifications do you need? What sort of degree? Should I go get an MBA? What have you done to make you successful? And I think the number one thing is that this is really not what people want to hear, but this is what I see over and over and I experienced myself. It's talking to others. It's getting out to people that you don't know that are working in the space and talking to them about what they do.

All of these things are relationship driven type jobs. And often you end up getting your job, maybe not because you're the best fit, but because you knew someone. I don't know, for better for worse, that's how it goes. Because with all of these applicant tracking systems and people not knowing others, you may be the perfect fit for a job or multiple jobs, and you won't even get an interview and that gets people really down. I get it. It's so humbling, but it's not you. It's the system and the system is not perfect. And so, the more people you can talk to and find out about keywords to use, what the industry is actually like, what sort of transferable skills you have. I know you talk about transferable skills on your podcast a lot, and who's there at the company that maybe went to your universe. It could be as simple as that to get that interview. And then everyone likes you when they're talking to you because physicians are typically likable people and we all have the ability to go work at a biotech company if we wanted to.

John: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Between LinkedIn and Doximity, you can probably locate most of your former med school cohorts, your residency, your fellowship, whatever it might be. And chances are someone out of all those hundreds of people that you know, is doing something kind of maybe what you're thinking about. So I've heard that before. And I'm being an introvert. I don't like to really necessarily reach out to people, cold call them, but an email or call they really, they always respond positively in my experience and what I've talked to people about.

I was going to ask you another thing, and it's maybe more about pharma than biotech. See what you think about this. But I imagine if I go on to Pfizer's website and try and apply for a job, I've got about a one in a million chance. But I know pharmaceutical companies use something called the CRO, which we've talked about here before, contract research organization is one definition. But in your experience, whether yourself or with others in businesses you've been involved with, is that something that it can be a bit of a shortcut, or a little easier to get hired than to go directly for one big company?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think it's all about timing. There's some good TED talks that really speak to this. It's all about timing. There are some people who apply to jobs at Pfizer, J&J, or some of these massive companies that you might think of off the top of your head that are pharmaceutical companies when you're starting to think about it. And they're applying, they get the job. But yeah, you're right. In general, these positions, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people applying. And so, it's a numbers game in a lot of aspects. And if you're finding a CRO, or maybe a smaller biotech company that people haven't heard of before, it's numbers game, it's just going to be less applicants. And maybe your application, your resume will catch someone's eye. A lot of this, again, is luck, timing, and you can increase your chances by talking to people in those relationships.

John: It's always better to have someone you can actually send your resume to, even if you go through the electronic version of that, it's still nice to have a human that might be able to sit through them and find yours. See, with the pandemic, it really kind of blew things up a bit. But there used to be some large national meetings that would occur every once in a while. And you could just show up or maybe attend the meeting, maybe it was on some topic related to a diagnostic class or something. And then you could run into people and meet them, take their cards. Does that still happen, do you think?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. I think that still happens a lot. The Medical Affairs Professional Society, or MAPS, is a great example. They have an annual meeting every year in the US. They also have one in the EU every year. That's a great place to maybe start that networking or go to the meeting. It's not a guarantee. So just knowing that ahead of time is important.

John: Let me ask you a definition issue. Because one thing you can do is you can maybe look up people on LinkedIn, again, see if it cross paths with something else you've done in life. But the thing is, what are you looking for? Like medical director, it's a common term in pharma, biotech, medical devices, it doesn't mean that much per se, because it's such a general term. Would that be something you would shoot for right away? Or are there other entry level positions one might usually go to?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, that's a tough one. Because you're right, medical director is such an ambiguous term. And it can mean something different in a lot different industries and at a lot of different companies. It's a good term, but it's going to be tough to use to search and find what you need there.

Medical Science Liaison is more of an entry level sometimes type job into these companies. The thing about an MSL is it's quite different from a medical director. And working as an MSL means you are working within medical affairs, whereas maybe some physicians will be a better fit to work for clinical development, or maybe even clinical operations. Or they may feel like the MSL role is a little bit of a demotion. So, you really have to balance all of those things.

If you're looking to find people in a medical director role, which I think is a really doable and achievable entry level role for most physicians, because we have the degree, we have the background, we have the clinical knowledge, and that's really looked at in a positive way, is to search by different companies. Maybe make a list of companies and then do that cross check and cross reference on LinkedIn. And then you can find people maybe a little bit easier within these different departments at that company.

John: Now, here's the question I've never asked anyone. But again, I'm always noticing these terms and trying to keep them all straight. But I've seen a number of people that the word global is in part, like global medical director, global this, global that. I assume that means because it's international. But what the heck does that really mean? Does it mean you're traveling the globe to do your work? Or what's your experience with that?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: You mean something different at every company. It most likely means that you are on the global team, which means you'll interact with colleagues in the EU or Asia, just somewhere other than the United States. But doesn't necessarily mean that you're traveling there. But it may, it may mean you're traveling there a lot. So it's very different depending on the company.

John: See, I talked to somebody about medical device, he teaches people how to do the MDR stuff in Great Britain. And his comment was though, let's say you're on that side of the pond, and you're looking for a job like this, because we get people that go back and forth. And he said, whatever you're doing there in Europe usually is going to apply in the United States, because all the companies in Europe that make drugs and biotech, they want to also sell in the United States. That can be a good thing to know that there's options on both sides of the Atlantic.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Absolutely, yes, there is a lot of money in drugs in the US for better for worse. We could have a whole conversation about the ethics behind that. And is this the right thing? And how does this work needed for R&D? Let's not go down any of those routes. But you're right. Yes.

John: But I think they're big businesses. And so, they either hire a lot of people directly or indirectly. So that's good. It's a good option for physicians, we're scientists, and we most of us use drugs and medical devices so that kind of makes for a natural transition.

I think you alluded to this next question, but I have it on my list. I'm going to double check. That has to do with how to prepare or to increase your chances. I know we both don't tell people to go out and spend $60,000 or $100,000 on MBA just to get a job in a pharma company. But is there anything out there in terms of maybe a certificate exposure to research? I don't know, ways to get a little bit on your resume that might be might demonstrate some knowledge?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah. I wish but not really. It really comes down to all the things that I talked about before. The timing, the knowing people the right place, right time, you can get certifications just to make sure that you know about these different topics, or you're well educated, you can do a good job in the interviews. And that's great. And maybe that will help you a bit. But it's nothing is a slam dunk guarantee. That's the really hard part about all of this. I wish there was. But if there was, we would already know about it now, I guess, right?

John: Yeah, I think it gets back to what you said earlier, if you can have a connection and find out, narrow your search down based on talking to people, you may find in that particular job that this particular certification might help you get that job, but it's not going to apply across the board.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. And if you're truly interested in that topic, getting that certification is only going to help you. And that's good, you should never just be doing things to get the job. In two years, you're going to be tired of it, you're going to be moving on anyway. So, try to also check your own self and make sure that you're doing these things, because you want this information. And would you do it anyway? Maybe if it's a little bit? Well, no, probably not, a little bit it's okay. But if it's you're just doing this to get the job, that may be also a little bit of a signal that this isn't the right field, or maybe looking at an easier way to do it, because you shouldn't be killing yourself to try to get that job.

John: Yeah, you should have the knowledge and a lot of the skills that already that would apply in that job.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes.

John: Because like you said, so many of them are filled by physicians. So there is a demand there. And it's just a matter of getting that communicated across to the company in the HR department that you're applying to. Okay, Michelle, well, I think I've bent your ear for long enough here. So why don't you close by giving our listeners here some any last minute advice or positive words of encouragement for those that are thinking "I do want to try something different. And I do think it's in the biotech or biopharma area."

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is something that I usually mentioned, so people have heard me speak before they've heard this, and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's lose confidence in yourself. And I'm just as guilty of it as others. We go through these phases where we're so beaten down by rejection, and things not working out, it's really easy to start thinking that you're not good enough, you don't know enough, you're not smart enough, not good looking enough, not tall enough, you're never going to make it. I hate those periods, but we all go through them. And that's what's going to just bring you down even more. Because when you're when you're in that place, you can't be the person that you are. And I think all of us as physicians, we got into med school, we got through at least a year, most of us all the years and all the residency, but whether you cut it short or not, you still were able to get there. And you are good enough to be in one of these jobs.

So don't lose confidence in yourself, do whatever it takes, have your support system, find a therapist, find a coach, find whatever it takes to just kind of get yourself to the point where you're able to talk about your strengths and your weaknesses, but be able to articulate what you want to do, and why you want to do it and why you're a good fit. And then it's a numbers game. It's annoying like that, but it is.

John: Yeah, and I know that you and I both could give dozens, if not hundreds of examples of physicians who have done that, and they thought it was kind of impossible at first, and then they realized "No, it's not." And now they're having great careers and loving it. So that's excellent reminder.

All right, Michelle, with that, I think it's time to say goodbye. I will tell people, I have links in the show notes, just reminding them that they can find you at LinkedIn. And that'd probably be the best way to reach out to you if they have any questions or things they want to double check. Maybe they went to school with you, and they've lost touch. Maybe you can help them get a job in pharma. But anyway, with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: That sounds great. Thanks, John. Thanks for your time. Thanks for having me.

John: You're welcome.

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Presentation by Dr. Maria Abunto – 352

Today's episode presents an excerpt from Dr. Maria Abunto's masterclass on securing your first nonclinical MSL job from the 2023 Nonclinical Career Summit.

Dr. Maria Abunto, a senior manager of medical science liaisons (MSLs) at Exact Sciences, shares her journey and insights into the MSL role. Dr. Abunto's insights focus on relationship-building, continuous learning, and strategic networking. Whether you are considering a career change or seeking to understand the MSL role better, this post offers valuable guidance and inspiration.

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We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast. The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

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Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.” If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat. Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

From Academia to Industry: Dr. Maria Abunto's Journey

Dr. Maria Abunto transitioned from academia to industry, bringing experience from the NIH, Stryker, and now Exact Sciences. Her journey began with a master's degree in public health, where she developed a passion for public service. Driven to make a broader impact, she ventured into the world of medical science liaisons (MSLs).

Dr. Abunto shares her personal story, highlighting the importance of investing in oneself and continuously seeking opportunities to learn and grow. Her transition underscores the value of networking and finding mentors who can guide and support one's career path.

The MSL Role: Responsibilities and Rewards

The MSL role established over 50 years ago is vital in the biopharma industry. MSLs are responsible for building relationships with key opinion leaders (KOLs) and educating them on the science and advancements in treatment related to a company's product. This communication-focused role requires a strong scientific background, typically a doctorate, and excellent interpersonal skills.

Dr. Abunto explains that MSLs work remotely, managing their schedules and traveling to meet with KOLs. The role offers significant rewards, including high compensation, flexible work arrangements, and the opportunity to make a meaningful impact in healthcare.

Finding Your First Nonclinical MSL Job: Tips and Strategies

Breaking into the MSL role can be challenging but achievable with the right preparation and strategy. Dr. Abunto advises aspiring MSLs to focus on matching their skills and experiences with specific therapeutic areas and companies.

Networking is crucial. Attending industry conferences, joining professional organizations like the MSL Society, and connecting with key MSL leaders can open doors to opportunities. Additionally, enrolling in relevant training programs can enhance one's qualifications. Dr. Abunto also emphasizes the importance of building quality professional contacts and researching target companies to stand out in the competitive MSL job market.

Summary

To learn more you should explore the MSL Society website, which offers information and training opportunities for aspiring Medical Science Liaisons. To connect with Maria check out her profile on LinkedIn, where she is likely active and engaging with the medical and scientific community. For detailed presentations and insights from the 2023 Nonclinical Careers Summit, including Dr. Abunto's complete talk, visit the 2023 Summit’s Official Page.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

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Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Maria Abunto's LinkedIn Page
• Why You Should Celebrate International MSL Day -135
• Medical Science Liaison Is Still a Fantastic Pharma Job – 261
• Complete the Journey to Your First Fabulous MSL Job – 277
• MSL Society Website
• Purchase the Complete 12-Lecture Package from the 2023 Nonclinical Career Summit
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 352

Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job

- Interview with Dr. Maria Abunto

John: Dr. Maria Abunto is the senior manager of medical science liaisons at ExactSciences, a molecular diagnostics company specializing in the detection of early-stage cancers. Before she worked there, she was global medical science liaison for Stryker. And she previously worked as an epidemiologist and investigator for the NIH and as a medical scientific expert on the IRB at a large children's hospital. She holds a master's degree in public health from the University of Pittsburgh and she completed a medical degree at the University of the East in Manila, Philippines. All right.

Today's podcast episode is the first half of her presentation from the 2023 Non-Clinical Career Summit in which she describes the MSL biopharma role, why it is a popular non-clinical career, and how to land your first MSL job. So let's jump in as she describes how she landed her first role as an MSL.

Dr. Maria Bunto: I'm Maria Bunto and I'll give a talk about coming from academia to industry or going from the ivory tower to the dark side. So the purpose of my presentation is to educate you on what is a medical science liaison or MSL. And if there's one thing I'd like for you to remember about being an MSL, it's not really bad at all. In fact, it's quite the opposite. It's one of the best jobs in the world and I'm fortunate to have transitioned to a non-clinical career that I love. And hopefully my talk will resonate with some of you.

So this is my disclaimer and the views and opinions are my own and do not reflect that of exact sciences, my employer, and I have no financial relationships to disclose.

So here's an outline of what I'll be talking about today. I'll start with a background about myself and my journey of how I transitioned. Then I'll talk about the MSL role, who MSLs are, and what compensation looks like, and then highlight the pros and cons of being an MSL. Then I'll take a deeper dive into how to become an MSL and briefly talk about the different career paths. I'll provide some information about the MSL society, their training and other resources.

So I'm just gonna go ahead and go into my why. This is my story and I'd like to spend just a few minutes and take you through my journey. Everyone has their unique experiences. So I think it's really important to connect with all of you, the audience out there who's interested and just figuring out what your why is. and why you want to transition. So as a physician, I have had previous experiences as a medical director, supervising operations for a busy family medicine practice. And during that time, I saw countless health disparities and underserved populations without any support or insurance. And so chronic disease is being passed down from generation to generation. And it's just one day that I just had an epiphany at a health fair and we were conducting where I realized I didn't wanna do this anymore, but rather just really focusing on understanding really what's going on here and what's happening upstream in a lot of these marginalized populations and how can we prevent that domino effect downstream?

So I always knew that I wanted to be more than just a medical director. I really wanted to affect populations on a greater level and really make that difference on even a more broader impact. while continuing to develop myself professionally. So identified public health problems, but I also realized the solution really starts with me. So the decision, this became my why. But how I was going to do this was the big question is how was I going to reinvent myself? So I knew my strengths were in public service and building connections and relationships. But I also realized during the soul searching that in order to do this, I needed to up my game and invest in myself. So my journey really begins in 2016 when I went back to graduate school and obtained my master in public health at the University of Pittsburgh. So this was a really great decision and wise investment because I needed to focus and reinvent myself. So I really worked hard to increase my knowledge and skillset, and I discovered that I absolutely loved learning as an adult student, but I didn't know what I would be doing after graduation, but I kept going and I didn't stop and I kept looking for opportunities.

It's in academia where I found an opportunity to expand my network. build my meaningful connections and relationships. So at the bottom right of the corner of the screen here, I'm pictured at graduation with my program director and long time mentor, Dr. David Feingold and the former Dean of Public Health, Dr. Donald Burke. And like I mentioned, I knew my strengths were not only in relationship building, but in public service. So at the top right is where I immersed myself in the Center for Health Equity Initiatives, such as Take the Health Professional to the People Day. So that's where I would conduct blood pressure screenings at barbershops and salons and inner cities around Pittsburgh. And you see, after all these years, I'm still volunteering in a community and giving back. It's been about a decade now. And these are opportunities like creating these long-term relationships with mentors. I also had an awesome mentor during grad school, who after graduation, I joined him at his lab at the National Institutes of Health and Population Sciences is at the NIH. And that's me pictured there on the left-hand corner. at the NIH Clinical Center in Bethesda, Maryland. That's really how I got into research because not only my connections, but my public health experience.

So it was at the NIH where I said, I mentioned that I conducted colorectal cancer research and that I became an epidemiologist there, attended all conferences and network like crazy. And I think that's where in 2017, I joined the MSL Society and became really active. And I attended the three-day live MSL communication and presentation skills training. There I learned as much as I could about being an MSL because I didn't really know I've heard about it, but it was really when I learned more about it that it appealed to me. And it was at the MSL Society Women's Conference in 2018 where I met a physician MSL. She introduced me to her career coach. And I immediately consulted that coach. So I wanted to realize that coach was also a physician. I wanted to really understand, is this a good fit for me? How hard is it to break into the role? She really helped me after 10 months. I landed my first job in industry. It was because of a connection she had, another physician who was hiring at a medical device company. And I know that after working there my first week, I just knew that I loved it and it was such a good fit. So in a nutshell, That was my career path and I'd have to say, I continue to solidify these relationships in the roles with MSLs and MSL leaders who continuously inspire me.

So now let's talk about the MSL role. The MSL was first established in 1967 by the Upjohn company and has existed for more than 50 years. And it continues to evolve in line with the changing diseases, treatment landscapes and healthcare trends. So MSLs were created in response to the need for a professionally trained staff to build rapport with influential physicians known in the pharma industry as key opinion leaders or KOLs and then thought leaders in various therapeutic areas of research. So MSLs became a part of medical affairs department where their activities revolve around building relationships with KOLs, but it's important to note that in the US the MSL is not a commercial role. or a promotional one. It's also not a science role, but rather a communication role through science, where discussions revolve around the research and the data behind the drug or product. So in the past, an advanced clinical degree was not required. However, in the late 1980s and 90s, a number of companies began to require MSLs to hold a doctorate degree, such as an MD, PharmD, or PhD, and now even Doctorate of Nursing, or DNP. As the MSL role grew over the years, the doctorate degrees became the new standard. Many companies require these credentials because MSLs are often viewed as more credible and it helps really establish those peer-to-peer relationships with doctors who you will be working with. And it's a growing field, which is a good sign. It's growing at a rate of about 10% a year with at least one out of four MSLs being hired without previous MSL experience. So over the years, companies have used various titles for the role and Medical Science Liaison or MSL is not the only name, it is called, for example, Pfizer calls MSL's field medical directors or FMDs and Amgen refers to them as regional leaders. So I'd also like to point out that obtaining a master degree may not likely make you a better applicant unless that degree really strengthens your match to the specific MSL role. But we have seen, and also on our team, we've had people that had master degrees and go on to also get a PhD while they're working for an industry company. So what is the purpose of the MSO role? The primary purpose is to be a scientific or disease state expert in the therapeutic area of the company product or pipeline.

So what is an MSL? Well, an MSL is one who holds a clinical degree in the life sciences with extensive experience in clinical medicine and or research. A doctor degree is preferred, but I've seen, as I mentioned, MSLs with master degree break into the role. There are more PhDs and PharmDs or MDs. And lately we've seen a lot of DERS practitioners and also physician assistants transitioning to become MSLs. So an MSL is employed by a pharma, biotech or medical device company. And He or she is a subject matter expert in a particular therapeutic area, such as oncology, hematology, and immunology. Now oncology and immunology, they lead the way with growth rates of about 31% and 28% respectively. And MSL's primary function is to educate on the science and advances in the treatment of the drug or product in a fair and balanced manner.

So it's a remote job where one works from home, one has a home office, and arranges meetings with KOLs or healthcare providers, either in person or virtually. So this diagram is event diagram and really illustrates what the role of the MSL encompasses. So the circle on the left contains all of the people with the science degrees, which is the PharmD, MD, PhDs. And these are people like yourself who have the proven science skills and have spent hours and hours conducting research or practicing science. Now the circle on the right This contains the people with communication relationship driven skills. So these are the soft skills. And that includes emotional intelligence and self-awareness. The circle on the left is necessary but not sufficient to land an MSL role. However, the circle on the right is full of people you want to be with, but is no good without the technical science skills found on the left. The silver middle, the sliver in the middle is where the two circles intersect and that's why the MSL talent is so hard to come by. However, as mastering the science and having degree is found in every candidate, what's often overlooked are the soft skills and the communication skills, as I mentioned, which actually may even be more important here. So MSLs are excellent communicators and this quality is really what is what makes one stand out. It's one thing to know the science and it's quite another to communicate the science. And if you think of the communication rolled through science, that's what makes an awesome MSL.

What are some of the responsibilities of an MSL? The primary responsibility is to establish and maintain relationships with KOLs who are influential doctors or healthcare providers. So since MSLs are subject matter experts of the science behind the products, engagements with KOLs involve discussions about the disease state and can involve education through presentations. An MSL first starts by KOL mapping in their territory and identifying who the key influencers are. and who are important players to get in front of as they begin strategizing and building relationships. A typical day involves proactively reaching out to a list of KOLs, and the MSL will introduce himself or herself through an email or a phone call. And then introductions can also happen at conferences or through your commercial sales force. The goal is to be able to schedule a one-on-one meeting, engage in conversation, and begin to build those relationships. And then from these conversations, may find that the KOL is interested in conducting a clinical trial that aligns with the pharma company or the KOL may request more education on the pivotal study about a company product recently launched. And whatever the outcome, collecting insights are important information to bring back to the company because insights are considered currency to the overall business, especially competitive intelligence insights. And sometimes these meetings are in-person and require travel. And so travel days are an average about two to three days per week. and are structured around the KOL schedule. But you can also modify your schedule, really makes sense to you. If you think according to the metrics of the company or of your team, if you can actually meet those metrics in two to three meetings, half virtual, half in person, minimal travel, that can be accomplished too. So it's really about you being the CEO or you managing and being the manager of your territory.

So here's a survey that was conducted by the MSL Society in 2020 and showing the many different activities that MSLs participate in and can be found on the website, which is free for all members. And also, I think there's also free resources for non-members. And as you can see, majority of the MSLs, over 98%, they manage KOL relationships. And approximately 90% of MSL surveyed said that they attend medical conferences and also provide education through scientific presentations. MSLs focus on meetings with those who are experts and thought leaders because they are influencing how others practice or conduct research using the product or the drug treatment. And an MSL would do that through a peer-to-peer scientific exchange. And the scientific exchange has two aspects to it. The first aspect of the role is a therapeutic area subject matter expert. So disease state awareness and the knowledge of the competitive landscape and the company specific products and pipeline. The second aspect is bringing value that the KOL wants. And sometimes they don't need the MSL scientific acumen. So sometimes what they want are opportunities. For instance, opportunities like a grant for an investigator led study or clinical trial. And sometimes KOLs are not looking for that scientific information, but looking to the MSL to be that conduit to the company's resources to help their career or institutions like being on an advisory board or speaker on podium or an author of a publication. So as an MSL, you will have to know the KOL very well to find out what it is that you can bring value to them. Is it the scientific presentations or is it the career opportunities? And the key is to meet the KOLs where they're at. So now let's shift a little bit and talk about who MSLs are and what compensation looks like. I think this is a really nice set of slides from the MSL Society data that shows an infograph of the makeup of the MSL surveyed by the MSL Society in 2020. 2023 results are very similar. So they surveyed over 2000 MSL professionals and the results in the US showed there was an overwhelming number of women MSLs compared to men, more than half were women and about 41% were men. 31% of MSLs work in the oncology space while 15% of MSLs work in Majority of MSL surveyed were white who had a PhD degree at 39%, followed by 27% for PharmDs. So only 8% of MSLs had a medical degree. The top three places where MSLs work are in large, medium, and small pharma or biotech companies. And then the survey also breaks it down by years of experience.

So MSL-based salaries can vary significantly depending on the therapeutic area, geographic region, years of experience. educational background, and then size of the company, as well as a company's product and pipeline life cycle. So this is a comparison of the average base salary of MSLs from around the globe. The MSL Society hired an external research firm to collect and analyze the data from over 2000 participants from 60 countries around the world. So this is 2022 data. And keep in mind that the MSL role may be defined differently around the world. They may take on other responsibilities similar to commercial sales or marketing. So from those that participated in the 2021 salary survey, the majority of managers or directors of MSLs based in the US use the report as their primary salary benchmark data. I know we use this for our, not only just the MSL society data, but other data that we use as benchmark for our hire for this year. And so as you can see, there is a wide range of salaries and the MSL pay trends on the higher side in the US and then it increases annually, about 3%.

This is a snapshot of the 2022 average base salary of MSLs in the US according to years of experience. And as you can see on the left, the average starting salary is about 160,000. That's not including benefits, which makes it a very attractive compensation, even with less than one year of experience. The salary increases about 3% every year, as I mentioned. However, this is underestimating how much MSLs make because it doesn't include the long-term benefits which could be another 30 to $50,000. For example, some of those benefits are health insurance, 401k, stock options, a company car, and an expense account, which are added on top of your base salary. Now on the right is the average starting salary for an MSL manager or director. It usually starts above $200,000, but varies according to the years of experience. So if you see though that the difference here from managers compared to the MSL's salary is that it varies and it doesn't necessarily mean a trend up as one gains more experience. The years of experience of being a manager or director doesn't always translate to higher pay. And sometimes they do take a pay cut to move up into a company.

So when I was doing my research and deciding on whether the MSL job was right for me, I thought it was important to write down the pros and cons of being an MSL. And I... And I suggest you do the same transitioning, if you're transitioning from clinical to non-clinical. So please note that this is not a comprehensive list and it's very subjective. So for the pros, I showed on the previous slide that MSLs in the US are well compensated with a high base salary. Remote work is a plus, especially during the pandemic when I started. But working from home may not be suitable for some people. Having a flexible schedule includes making your own work schedule, arranging your own meetings and then. healthcare providers, meetings, as well as booking work travel. And there is at least 50% within your region or territory. And travel may be a deal breaker for some, but for me, it suits my lifestyle. And also there are great benefits that I explained. Some of the cons. So for industry is highly regulated and there is a lot of compliance and rules to follow. There is some loss of autonomy there. It's a transition from being a discoverer, for instance, like in academia, to being a knower. You know, you will not have a lot of patient interaction if you were a clinician and moving into becoming an MSL. And will certainly not be a scientist, but rather more of a communicator of science. And then you're going to be part of a larger team that is metrics driven and performance driven. So for example, you're measured on the number of healthcare provider. Outreach and interactions, insights and presentations, those are part of your metrics. Access to healthcare providers and scheduling face-to-face meetings. They were very difficult during the pandemic. But then we made it work through a hybrid kind of meetings where we had virtual and also in-person once they started opening up to vendors and to industry. So it's about really finding creative ways of gaining access.

The MSL role is very competitive. You will be competing against experienced MSLs for every single role you apply for. Breaking in is not easy, but it's not impossible. And most companies will require having MSL experience. It does take a lot of hard work and the right match to find that ideal job. And now I just, I'm going to pause here for a minute and just talk about one thing that I did not touch on. And that is that negative impression or that bias about working in industry. And you know, I came from academia came from practice as well. And I specifically titled my talk, going from academia to the dark side to illustrate this bias. But as someone who has worked on both sides, I believe education and having an open mind are key in tackling these biases and assumptions when considering transitioning to industry. And this section is going to be talking about how to become an MSL. I can be whole another presentation and discussion, but I'll just take a few minutes to talk about some steps and strategies that has worked for me and others. And the bottom line is preparation is key.

So remember that there are no general MSL roles. There are all disease state or therapeutic area focus. The first step is to really identify your therapeutic area or TA. For example, you could be conducting research in Alzheimer's and your disease state focuses neurology or neuroscience. or if you are conducting sickle cell anemia research, your TA will be hematology. If you want to exponentially increase your chances of breaking into your first MSL role, I'd say the three most important things are really to match, match. Match and find those target companies, target roles, and only apply to those once you have done your research and preparation. Next, research the role in the company you'd like to work for. I'd say do that now, follow the company on social media or even on Twitter, on LinkedIn, know everything you can about the company because when it does come time to interview, what I did is I told the company, I said, I've been following you for years, which is, it's a good sign that you actually are very knowledgeable about them. It also allows you more opportunities that help you get in front of people as you network and then get your foot in the door. There are also, for example, internships or fellowships offered because these can count as experience. translatable experience. And so too, you wanna look at and see if there's companies that have internships and apply for those opportunities. Attend industry-wide conferences and events and really build your network. Let them know you, your face and really introduce yourself and be proactive. A focus on quality professional contacts that are directly related to the MSL community. and identify key MSL leaders in medical affairs at companies that are of interest to you. So this is the most effective and easiest way to connect with a hiring manager and other key decision-makers. So the more relevant connections you make, the greater chance you will be successful in breaking in. So become an active member of MSL relevant groups, like the MSL Society, and there's others out there, cheeky scientists. This will allow you to really increase the network your circle of influence with those MSLs in industry, but also in the companies that you are interested in. It's really challenging to achieve on your own your circle of influence without the help of your network. So I highly encourage you to expand your reach and get out of your comfort zone and connect with others.

It's also really challenging to achieve becoming an MSL on your own without proper preparation and guidance. You will need to really stand apart from the competition. So there's also MSL trainings offered for aspiring MSLs, especially if you have no MSL experience. That's a great way to upscale, build your skills. If you lack industry experience or research experience, you know, we wanna keep pace with the changing demands of the profession. And if you need to enroll in online courses to learn about clinical trials or regulatory compliance, I'll provide a list of resources too with websites at the end of this talk.

John: Physicians are uniquely positioned to enter the biopharma industry. They obviously use the products produced by biopharma and are very comfortable discussing the research, development, and deployment of new pharmaceuticals, diagnostic tests, and medical devices. In today's presentation, Maria provided a nice review of the pros and cons of the MSL job, the likely salary to expect, and sound advice to help you transition into the role. If you'd like to hear the rest of our presentation and the other 11 topics presented at the 2023 Non-Clinical Careers Summit, you can check that out at nonc forward slash two zero two three summit. That's nonc forward slash twenty three summit. That's all one word, no hyphens.

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The post Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Presentation by Dr. Nerissa Kreher – 349

In today's episode, we present an excerpt from Dr. Nerissa Kreher's masterclass on securing the best biopharma positions from the 2023 Nonclinical Career Summit.

Dr. Nerissa Kreher is a pediatric endocrinologist and the Chief Medical Officer at a biotech company.  She received her medical degree from East Carolina University. She then completed a pediatric residency and pediatric endocrinology fellowship at Indiana University School of Medicine.

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We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast. The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

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Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.” If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat. Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

Unveiling New Horizons: Career Transitions in the Biopharma Industry

Dr. Kreher's journey inspires physicians to contemplate career transitions beyond traditional clinical practice. With over 17 years of experience in the biopharma industry, she offers invaluable insights into the diverse pathways available to medical professionals seeking new challenges and opportunities.

Through her narrative, Dr. Kreher illuminates how to leverage clinical expertise in roles ranging from clinical development to patient safety and medical affairs.

Decoding the Biopharma Realm: Contrasts and Considerations

Nerissa highlights the contrasting dynamics between clinical practice and the biopharma industry. She explores the differing hierarchies, teamwork dynamics, and work flexibility, offering her insights for physicians contemplating a career transition to the pharma industry.

These insights will help listeners prepare for their transition from a frustrated clinician to a fulfilling biopharma career.

Summary

Dr. Nerissa Kreher describes how to navigate from clinical medicine to the biopharma industry effectively. Gain insights into diverse career pathways beyond traditional clinical practice, from clinical development to patient safety and medical affairs. Explore new horizons with invaluable guidance from Dr. Kreher. 

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Nerissa Kreher's Website [IndustryMDCoach]
• Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311
• Research and Development in Nonclinical Pharma Careers
• Medical Science Liaison Is Still a Fantastic Pharma Job – 261
• Highlight These 5 Experiences to Land Your First Pharma Job – 242
• How Does a Physician Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job? – 214
• Use These Simple Tactics to Land a Fantastic First Pharma Job – 209
• How to Find a Job in Pharma That You Love – 184
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 349

The Best Biopharma Positions For Motivated Practicing Physicians

- Lecture by Dr. Nerissa Kreher

Dr. Nerissa Kreher: I'm really excited to be here, John and Tom, thank you so much for this amazing forum. I've enjoyed participating over the last couple of nights and looking forward to tomorrow night as well. Thanks for the opportunity. I'll be speaking today about career opportunities for physicians in the biopharma industry. And I'll get to a little bit of lingo in just a second.

A little bit of background on me. I have a business called The Pharma IndustryMDCoach, and I help physicians explore and ultimately find a fulfilling career in the biopharma industry and use a step-by-step guide of taking you through the process of a resume, LinkedIn, interviewing, negotiating.

But in addition, I'm a certified life coach. And so I also apply the principles of life coaching to help people dispel imposter phenomenon, lack of confidence, self-doubt. And I'll raise some of those things throughout our conversation tonight.

John asked us to start by giving a little bit of our background. I thought it would be fun to share my story because people often ask, "How did I end up transitioning?" And I have to tell you that it was a bit fortuitous actually, but I'm very grateful that it happened. And I'm 17 years now in the biotech industry.

Of course, medical school, residency, fellowship, I'm a pediatric endocrinologist by training. I got married during medical school, had kids during residency and fellowship. And my husband, he was a year behind me, med-peds, and had practiced, but then decided he wanted to go back and do a sports medicine fellowship. We found ourselves in the situation of this is a match for sports medicine, and I was looking for a real job. And so, we ended up looking in three different cities, obviously ones with large academic centers where I could have a pediatric endocrine job.

I was on a clinical research path. I got my master's in clinical research during my fellowship and really enjoyed seeing my clinical research patients, but I never really enjoyed being in clinic day in and day out. I really was on that clinical research track and that's where my passion was.

Through this, I thought I had a job waiting for me at Mass General Hospital in clinical research. When my husband matched in sports medicine there, I called the program director, division director, and the first words out of her mouth were, "Oh no." That obviously was a bit stressful. They offered me a job, ultimately a job seeing patients 80% of the time.

I'm very grateful that I at least knew that's really not what I wanted and didn't just take the job out of feeling helpless and hopeless. I interviewed around the East Coast as far as Rhode Island and Dartmouth, New Hampshire, still didn't find what I was looking for. And a sales representative from Serono asked if I would give her my resume so she could share it at her company. And some of you may know or not, Serono has a recombinant human growth hormone, which obviously is a pedendo I'm very familiar with.

That landed me my first role in the biotech industry as the medical director in medical affairs. And I truly loved it from day one. I think it really pulled from that forever learner phenotype that many physicians have. I was exposed to so many new things, but also I was an expert in pediatric endocrinology. And so I was able to teach people, but I was also learning from others at the same time.

I'm now 17 years in, I've worked at seven different companies, medical affairs, as well as clinical development. I'm in my third chief medical officer role. I've had the opportunity of doing two public offerings, taking private companies public, and I serve on the board of director of a public biotech company as well.

COVID hit us, I felt like very, very dire straits in the early parts of COVID. I couldn't go and do a shift in an ER. And so my way of helping was to try to start helping some of my colleagues that needed to transition. And that's where the IndustryMDCoach was born from. So, that's my story. You can probably tell I have a lot of energy about our industry and really enjoy helping people understand it. I look forward to any questions at the end of the talk.

I like to compare and contrast a little bit between clinical and the biotech and pharma industry. Before I do that, I will use biotech and pharma and biopharma very interchangeably. It used to be that biotech technically meant something that we made in cells. For example, recombinant human growth hormone is manufactured in live cells. And pharma meant things that are synthetically made.

It's a big mishmash now. So many, many companies are biopharma companies because they do both. Some people actually now sort of refer to pharma as bigger companies and biotech as smaller companies. I think biopharma encapsules our whole industry. But if I use one or the other, I probably really mean biopharma.

In the clinical setting, and I fully admit there are some generalities here, but the physician is pretty high on the totem pole from a decision-making standpoint. I recognize insurance, admin, things also have an impact on that decision-making, but they are relatively high on the totem pole.

In the biotech and pharma industry, the physician may not be the ultimate decision-maker. Even as the chief medical officer, meaning I'm like the top medical officer at the company, I'm very rarely making decisions in a vacuum. I have my CEO, I have my chief operating officer, my chief financial officer. And so, decisions are being made in cross-functional teams all the time. That's one big difference that I think a physician really has to think about as they consider, "Is biotech and pharma the right thing for me?"

Obviously, clinical individual patient care, biopharma, we're caring for groups of patients. Now I actually don't even have an active medical license anymore. So I'm not caring for them, meaning making medical decisions for them, but I'm doing things that impact their medical journey overall. And I work in the rare disease space and I'm also understanding that medical journey and learning from patients. I do have the opportunity to be at patient meetings, have patients come to our office and speak to us, but I'm not doing that day-to-day medical care.

I mentioned cross-functional teamwork. Clearly physicians are working cross-functionally every day, with nurses, with physical therapists, with occupational therapists, we can name lots of them, pharmacists. But they all are generally healthcare providers, or at least in that healthcare provider universe. Whereas the cross-functional teamwork we do in the biopharma industry is much more highly varied. And so, for example, a program team might have a person from manufacturing, a person from regulatory, a person from clinical, an operations person, a program lead who's in charge of timelines, deliverables, a finance person.

And so, we're really working with people who speak very different languages than us. And one of the things you have to learn when you come into the industry are some of these languages so that you can actually communicate effectively with one another. But again, as I said, that was one of the things that I found to be really fun because I wanted to learn new things.

In clinical, the day can be very highly structured. As many of you know, there may be a patient waiting for you tomorrow at 08:30 and you know that they're supposed to be in the room. For those of us in the biopharma industry, I don't have a patient waiting for me. I may very well have an 08:30 in the morning meeting, but if my child is sick and vomiting, that meeting is a very different pressure than the patient waiting in the room. And so, there is more flexibility overall in the biopharma industry.

Now, lots of caveats. You could have a manager that was a dictator-style manager and your flexibility is out the window. But just in generalities, not having sort of that scheduled patient waiting for you makes that very different.

We have key indicators of success. Obviously, we're trying to make bonuses. We're trying to hit our timelines and our goals. Our key indicators of success vary with the function and with seniority. And so typically, the company sets their goals and they filter down through the organization. Whereas in clinical, maybe if you're in academics, it's related to grants or publications, then obviously RVUs are a major measure as well.

Funding pressures might be high. That, of course, might apply more towards the academic group. But in biopharma, we don't have funding pressures. I don't need to get a grant to do the research. The company has a budget to support that.

Those are some compare and contrasts. One, not better than the other, but I like to share them with people so that if they're thinking about a transition, they can start to think about, "Would I like that? Would that be concerning to me? Does that sound really exciting to me?"

I mentioned learning a new language. So I'll move past that one. But I really do encourage people to think about what kinds of learners are they? Do they enjoy new challenges? Do they enjoy or maybe even, sometimes I feel like I get bored if I'm doing the same thing day in and day out. And so this ability to interact with different people helps with that issue of not getting bored.

Again, you're typically not going to be the decision maker. And so when I'm working with a physician that wants to transition, there's this balance of humility and confidence that you have to strike during the interview process. People have stereotypes about doctors. And I think many of us would laugh at the stereotype because we know that for most of us it's not true, but people do think that doctors are know-it-alls. And so when you're looking at being on a cross-functional team, people don't want to work with know-it-alls. So you're balancing that in the interview process, but you also have to balance being confident and showing that you can do this job.

I think it's a lot of fun. One of the perks in my mind, I love to travel and I've had the chance to literally see the world. I've been to Japan, to the country of Georgia, Australia, Europe. Now, some people would say I have no interest in travel, and that's fine too, because there are roles in the pharma industry that have very little travel for physicians too. But for me, this opportunity to really see the world has been great.

I have amazing colleagues. I'm still in touch with people from that first Serono job. I was just at a networking event tonight. And the six degrees of separation, it's way less than that. This industry, people move roles, move companies. And so, you really have an opportunity to meet some really cool people.

And it can be really stressful. We still have timelines. We still have expectations. There are weekends that I'm working because I'm at a conference. There are evenings that I'm working because maybe I'm running a clinical trial in Australia and the times are different. I had a boss one time who said, people think we sit around and drink coffee and eat bonbons. It's not drinking coffee and eating bonbons. But the stress is something in my mind, I have more control over when I do the work. I still have to do the work, but the "when" there's not sort of it waiting for me in a patient room.

So, what are the main roles for physicians in the pharma industry? I break it down into three. These are the three entry level roles. Now, once you get in, really the sky's the limit. Physicians can be CEOs. Physicians can lead business development functions. There are all kinds of opportunities, but those are rare until you get your foot in the door, unless you have some kind of other specialty training like if you were maybe went through a MBA program and came right out into pharma, there might be some other opportunities.

But tonight we'll focus on the three main ones, clinical development, patient safety or pharmacovigilance. And at some companies, they call this drug safety. A lot of names for the same thing. And medical affairs.

In clinical development, the main roles that you're thinking about as you're looking for jobs, clinical scientists and clinical development physician, which is the director level or senior director level. And it goes up from there. Most physicians that are entering are entering in the associate director or director level. That's where I'm pointing most people, and then you can rise from there.

Pharmacovigilance, drug safety, patient safety. Same thing. You're sort of director level in pharmacovigilance. And then medical affairs, again, same thing for the physicians, medical affairs director. And then there's also another thing that many of you have heard of called a medical science liaison. I'm not going to spend much time on that tonight because we have another person that's going to spend a whole lecture on MSLs and she's the right person to do it because she's been an MSL. I've never been an MSL. And so I'm really looking forward to her talk as well.

As we move through those, I'll talk about clinical development first. Clinical development involves all aspects of studying an investigational drug product in humans. So we refer to early phase trials as phase one and phase two and late phase trials as phase three and phase four.

So if you think way, way, way back sometime, probably in medical school, you might've learned about this in one of your courses, but phase one trials are the initial safety trials. These are the first time we're putting drugs into humans. It usually in larger drug populations is in healthy volunteers. In the rare disease world in oncology, it's often patients that we're doing these safety studies in.

Phase two is early proof of concept. So you're still looking at safety. We're always looking at safety, but you're starting to look at proof of concept efficacy. Phase three studies typically are the large phase three. They're randomized double-blind placebo controlled studies that we use for registration or approval of a drug with regulatory agencies.

And then phase four typically is post-marketing. After a drug is approved, companies still are running trials to either follow long-term efficacy or follow long-term safety. And we refer to those as phase four.

That gives you a sense of the sort of large bucket of what clinical development is, but that doesn't really answer your questions, I'm guessing. So, let's dive a little deeper. The clinical development physician at the, again, associate director, director level, when they're coming into pharma, they're going to be involved in clinical development strategy and planning.

We're thinking about not just what does one trial look like, but what does it take to develop the drug all the way from putting it into the first human to getting it approved, whether it's with FDA or EMA, which is the European FDA or the Japanese or the Chinese or whatever it might be, whatever regulatory agency. You're thinking about the whole program.

More detailed responsibilities might include protocol design, where we're focused as the physicians on what are the appropriate inclusion, exclusion criteria, endpoints, safety monitoring. Maybe there's been a safety signal in the tox studies, you need to pull that into the protocol so you can monitor it in humans.

Another big regulatory document called the investigator's brochure, the physician's going to have a lot to say about what's in that document. And then of course, as you generate data, you've got data analysis, presenting data at scientific conferences, highly engaged in regulatory conversations. Going and talking to FDA, going and talking to MHRA in the UK.

Engaging with thought leaders or key opinion leaders, KOLs, to get their input. So I'm a pediatric endocrinologist and I work in the area of neuromuscular disease right now. So I don't know everything about neuromuscular. I need to go and ask the people that do. And so those are my thought leaders or KOLs.

And then I'm interacting with people like clinical operations. Those are the people that actually execute the trials. Regulatory, patient safety, patient advocacy. Again, those cross-functional team members.

I mentioned some of the titles already. Some of the transferable skills would be clinical experience, clinical trial experience. But here it doesn't have to be that you were the PI on a phase three pharma-sponsored randomized double-blind placebo-controlled study. It can be that you participated in research and that can be retrospective as well. Data analysis, publications.

Without clinical research experience, I typically would say to people, clinical development will be the hardest place to enter. But if you have research experience, which many of you do, then there are opportunities to come in through clinical development.

Moving to pharmacovigilance, again, drug or patient safety. This involves all things safety data. Those physicians are really not thinking about the efficacy of the drug. They are focused on safety and they have to understand the whole safety package around the drug from when it was first put into cells and into animals all the way through.

They're focusing on understanding all the available data and trying to assign whether or not there's relatability to a side effect to the drug, but maybe it's related just to the disease that we're trying to treat. And that's where the clinical knowledge comes into the patient safety role.

They have significant interactions with clinical development, with regulatory. I think I had no idea coming into the industry how much safety data we have to send to agencies like the FDA every, not even just year, but there are reports that are required by law that go in and these safety physicians are highly involved in those.

Some of the titles, associate medical director, medical director. And transferable skills here, your clinical experience. You're the one that understands pharmacology. You're the one that understands the actual clinical disease and that understanding is what you bring to the table for a safety role.

Clinical trial experience is a plus, but not a necessity. And if you have any experience as a principal investigator, that's PI or sub investigator where you've had to report safety data, again, that's a plus as well, because you understand the reporting process, but that's something that you can learn in the job. It's really that clinical experience that comes as the transferable skill.

And then moving to medical affairs. I actually find medical affairs to be the more difficult of all three to explain to people, because if I talk to you about a clinical trial protocol, most people can get that safety, but medical affairs is a bit nebulous. The definition is the external scientific medical arm that takes clinical or medical information from the company to external stakeholders, such as those key opinion leaders and patient groups, even more importantly these days. They share that information and they bring information back into the company for us to integrate into our development.

Medical affairs is engaged in the scientific exchange of information with external stakeholders. Those stakeholders might be, as I've said, thought leaders, but healthcare providers generally. It doesn't have to be Professor Smith, who's the best neuromuscular doctor in the whole of the United States. Yes, Dr. Smith is probably important, but the doctors who are treating the neuromuscular patients day in and day out are also very important to me. And I'm using neuromuscular as an example, it could be endocrine, it could be cardiovascular. But getting that information, what do they need from drugs? What is an unmet need? What is not being met appropriately? And again, patients and patient family input as well.

They're sharing that scientific and clinical knowledge and they're gathering that scientific and clinical knowledge. They also are very engaged in teaching. Oftentimes, I'm asked to give a lecture to a group of laboratory colleagues who they understand what they're doing at the bench, but they might not understand the disease they're actually working on and helping them understand it and talking to them about what happens to the patient helps them really understand why they come to work every day. So there's a lot of teaching involved in med affairs.

And you're interacting with a lot of people, clinical, but here may be more commercial colleagues and also regulatory because we are a highly regulated industry and anything we take outside, we have to get approval to do so. Regulatory is an important part as well.

Similar titles, again, I'm going to leave medical science liaisons for tomorrow night, but associate medical director, medical director and transferable skills here, again, that clinical experience. And if you have experience with data analysis, with publications, that can be a really nice addition as well, but again, not absolutely necessary.

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