author Archives - NonClinical Physicians

The Essential Guidebook to Being An Outstanding CMO

John Jurica — Tue, 11 Jun 2024 11:56:48 +0000

Interview with Dr. Mark Olsyzk – 356

In today's interview, outstanding CMO Dr. Mark Olszyk provides his advice and that of his co-authors from The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook.

He discusses the critical skills required for effective medical leadership and practical tips for navigating complex healthcare challenges. And he emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and collaboration among healthcare professionals to be successful.

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The Journey to Becoming an Outstanding CMO: Insights and Experiences

John leveraged resources from the American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL), including its Certified Physician Executive (CPE) program, to enhance his leadership skills. That is where he met Dr. Mark Olszyk, a seasoned physician leader with a rich background in military service and medical administration.

Dr. Olszyk, co-author and editor of “The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook,” shares his extensive experience in medical leadership. From his early days in the Navy to his decade-long tenure as a Chief Medical Officer (CMO), he highlights the importance of learning from successes and mistakes. The book serves as a comprehensive guide for aspiring CMOs, offering practical advice and lessons distilled from the experiences of various medical leaders.

The Role of a Chief Medical Officer: Responsibilities and Challenges

Dr. Olszyk outlines the multifaceted role of a Chief Medical Officer, emphasizing the importance of building bridges between various stakeholders in a hospital. He describes the evolution of the CMO role from the Vice President of Medical Affairs, focusing on credentialing, privileging, quality reviews, and regulatory compliance.

A CMO is a liaison between the medical staff, hospital administration, and the board of directors, ensuring effective collaboration. Dr. Olszyk also discusses his journey in medical leadership and the fulfillment he has experienced during his career.

Advice for Aspiring Medical Leaders: Steps to Take and Skills to Develop

Mark offers practical advice and steps to gain relevant experience for those considering a career in medical leadership. He encourages involvement in leadership roles within hospitals and joining professional organizations like the AAPL and the American College of Healthcare Executives (ACHE).

He also emphasizes the value of networking, seeking mentorship from current medical leaders, and continuously developing leadership skills through education and practical experience. By engaging in paid and volunteer leadership opportunities, physicians can significantly influence the future of healthcare while developing new skills, on their journeys to outstanding CMO.

Summary

In this interview, Dr. Mark Olszyk shares his extensive experience as an outstanding CMO and co-author of “The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook.” For those interested in purchasing the book, it is available on Amazon or through the American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL) website, where volume discounts are also offered. You can reach Mark directly via LinkedIn.

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 356

The Essential Guidebook to Being An Outstanding CMO

- Interview with Dr. Mark Olszyk

John: During my efforts to improve my skills as a physician leader, I naturally took advantage of the AAPL, the American Association for Physician Leadership, including its CPE program. And it was during the final week of that CPE program that I met today's guest. He's a consummate physician leader, starting with way back when he was in the military. He may still be in the military, I'll ask him about that. But anyway, he's held numerous leadership and executive positions, and he's also the co-author and editor of a new book, well, it came out last year, The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook. Let's welcome Dr. Mark Olszyk to the show. Good to see you again, Mark.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Good to see you, John. It's been too long, but thanks for having me and inviting me to your podcast. I'm really excited to be here.

John: Excellent. I have brought up the issue of physician leadership, and especially in the hospital setting, many times over the years on the podcast. And as far as I know, there are books written about the job and different aspects. But really, when I saw this book, with excellent collaboration with the AAPL and yourself with all your experience, this is just perfect for those in my audience who are thinking about moving along those lines, and actually a "how to" to get there. I really appreciate you putting this book out there.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Oh, well, thanks. To answer your previous question, I'm not still in the military. I got out in 2003, kind of hard to believe, but I'm a proud Navy veteran, and my son is an Army ROTC. So, get that out of the way.

John: Nice.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Yeah, yeah. The book, I think everybody at some point in their lives, reflecting on their experiences, and their travels and their journey, say, "Yeah, I should write a book about that." And I'm no different. But I've been a CMO, chief medical officer for about 10 and a half years. But I've been in medical leadership since the first year after finishing residency, I went into the US Navy. And the military, unlike almost any other sector, will put you in to leadership positions as soon as possible. And you find a way to get the skills and find the maturity and the leadership is thrust upon you and you have to rise to the occasion. I've always been grateful for that.

But I had gone to conferences at AAPL, others where I met other chief medical officers, and we would share stories. And I thought, boy, it'd be great to write this stuff down and distill this because these are some really valuable lessons, not just the things that we had done correctly, but all of the mistakes that we had made. And wouldn't it be better for other people to learn from our mistakes rather than repeat them themselves.

I guess it came to a head in our system. Physician was made chief medical officer of another hospital. And I just kind of casually passed along here's 10 things to do, like the 10 commandments, but not nearly as inspired, but just 10 things. And about six to eight months later, I guess he lost it. It was that impactful. But he lost it and said, hey, can you send it to me again? I just didn't have it. And I thought, "You know what? If I'm going to write some stuff down, let me make it into something." And it just kind of grew. And I talked to some of my colleagues and contacts. And I said, would you guys be interested in collaborating on a book? Because I think it'll be enormously boring if it's just me telling the stories. But if we have a whole chorus of voices, I think that might really strike a note.

I just had no idea how to publish a book. I just didn't want to do it on my own. I approached AAPL. And Nancy Collins was very gracious. We actually met in a Starbucks in Maryland. And she showed me some of her other publications that came out recently, one of which was a collaborative effort. And it just kind of grew from there.

I reached out to everybody I knew in my life who was a CMO or medical leader. And there was a lot of enthusiasm. I learned a lot in trying to shepherd people together for a collective effort where I was not their boss. They were not getting paid. And there was no way I could really enforce any sort of deadlines or standards. That in itself could be a book, a book about how to write a book. But it was a fun journey. I'm glad it's out there and I've received some excellent feedback.

John: Yeah, when I look through it, of course, most physicians, actually, most clinicians, of course, they like teaching, like helping their peers and so forth. And I think many, if not all, not all of the section writers or physicians, of course, you tapped into other expertise, which I like. There's a lot covered there.

And when I think about the CMO role, it's in my mind is like this iconic what does a CMO do? But everyone does it differently. Everyone does different aspects, more depending on each job. It's unique. But yet, I think you covered everything that I could think of in terms of what questions would I have if I was thinking about being a CMO or I was and I was missing something. So tell me a little bit more about the process. How did you herd all these cats and get this thing done? How long did it take you to do?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: From start to finish, it took about a year. Some of the author contributors returned their submissions in two weeks. Others took about eight months. Some needed multiple revisions, some needed none. I did recruit two co-editors, Aaron Dupree and Rex Hoffman. They helped out a lot.

I learned a lot about copy editing and all of the back office productions and placing it and formatting it. From what had existed only as a series of, I'll say, not too well organized Word documents on my desktop, to see that transform into an actual written book was pretty fascinating and eye-opening. But originally I had an idea for a structure and like all initial ideas, it went away pretty quickly.

And so I just asked people to write about what they felt that they were knowledgeable about or passionate. And the outlines of a puzzle began to come together. And then after about 75% of the submissions were in, at least an outline form, then I could actually target what was missing.

As a frustrated or wannabe classicist, I used the model of the medieval concept of the human being. The first set of chapters, the first section is about the anatomy of the CMO, the basics, the blocking and tackling, metrics and patient experience and all the quotidian day-to-day activities that were going to be the guts and the sinews and the bones.

And then we would move on to the heart, which is all about relationships and how the CMO relates to the chief nursing officer, the chief executive officer, to the board of directors, to departmental chiefs or chairs, and also their perspectives, what they think a CMO should be, or how a CMO should act to be successful in their eyes.

And then we moved on to the brain, the strategic thinking, extra hospital relationships, like how do you deal with third-party rating agencies and auditors and joint commission and dealing with the media, especially when the memories refresh from the pandemic, what if you're asked to appear on TV, on live TV, on the radio and newspaper articles how do you prepare for that?

And then finally, the soul or the spirit, which would be the transformational values and ethics and diversity, inclusion, aspirational type things. It was kind of a journey from the very basic things that a CMO would do day-to-day to the more long-range aspirational goals or values. And I think the way it's written, you can skip around. You can say, gee, I want to learn more about how to prepare for a media interview or how to relate to the board of directors. And you can go right to that section. So it doesn't have to be read in order. It can be used as a reference or it could be read as a story in itself.

John: I think it's pretty comprehensive. And probably in anyone who serves as CMO may not even be exposed to all the things that are covered. There's so much and again, because each role is slightly different. So it's awesome. One of the things I like to do when I'm bringing on an editor and author is pick their brain. So I have an ulterior motive for having you here other than just to talk about the book, although again, it's fairly comprehensive.

But just to keep what our audience's appetite here for this job because some are a little reluctant maybe they have a negative feeling about working in hospitals being abused by somebody or another, but there are good systems out there. And the other thing is being the CMO, you can make a big difference in how that organization is run. Tell me what you would say, if you were to boil it down, what are the most common areas that a chief medical officer is sort of responsible for? Maybe another way to look at it is like who reports to them, because it kind of makes me think about, okay, well, I do this because this person reports me. So however you want to answer that question in terms of the core roles of a CMO.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: I think the CMO role evolved from what was previously and still exists, usually in a hyphenated title, Vice President of Medical Affairs. That being the mechanics and the support staff for the organized medical staff. And every hospital per joint commission guidelines and through history, has had an independent organized medical staff who are largely responsible to establish their own standards for credentialing and privileging. And that was made ever more important back in the 1960s, when there were landmark cases, lawsuits, where patients began to sue hospitals. And the hospital said, hey, we have to really have some quality standards, and we're going to ask the medical staff, almost as a guild to police itself. But the medical staff have full-time jobs taking care of patients, and it's hard for them to keep the files and the minutes and the records and organize the meetings and stay abreast of all of the regulatory changes.

There is an Office of Medical Affairs in every hospital. And the Vice President of Medical Affairs, now the CMO, is largely responsible for ensuring the quality of the medical staff, making sure the medical staff leaders understand what they're supposed to do, making sure that they do it. And it's challenging in that the medical staff can be employees of the hospital or healthcare system. They can be contractors or vendors, or they can be completely independent. And when I started out at this hospital, it was about one-third of each.

To get all those different folks with their different interests aligned in a common effort proved to be a challenge, but one I thought was very fun because I had to look at their world through their eyes and also convince them that what we were doing was necessary and important and create a team not of rivals or competitors, but of people who didn't necessarily all fall into the same silo.

We're largely responsible for the credentialing, privileging, presenting those applications to the medical executive committee and to the governing body, which is usually the board of directors, making sure everyone is completing their FPPEs, their OPPEs, the ongoing professional performance assessments, making sure they're up to standards with joint commission, reviewing and knowing the bylaws. I probably know the bylaws better than anybody in the hospital. We've rewritten them 10 times since I've been here. Quality review, and then making sure that the medical staff were involved in all of the various intra-hospital, extra-hospital committees radiation safety, prescribing, that sort of thing.

What I'd like to say is that the chief medical officer is a bridge builder between the hospital administration and the medical staff, but also between the medical staff and the board of directors, between the hospital and the community. Sometimes the CMO, I found myself as the spokesperson during the pandemic especially. It was on local radio, on TV trying to break down in very understandable terms what was happening, but also bring back to the hospital and tell them, hey, this is what the community is concerned about. Here are the questions they have.

We have to be mindful of that, responsible for that. Also within the hospital, being a bridge builder between the various departments translating the needs of the hospitalist team to nursing or between medicine and surgery and sometimes refereeing, sometimes being just the host getting folks together.

But I always come back to bridge building. And again, if you look through history, through cinema, through literature, bridges always figure prominently in history, battles of the Milvian Bridge with Constantine changing the nature of the Roman Empire, Stamford Bridge, which ended the Viking Age in England. All these great events happen on bridges. Even if you've seen Saving Private Ryan, which came out, in 1998. The last ultimate scene, Tom Hanks losing his life is actually on a bridge. And if you're a fan of The Lord of the Rings, that's where Gandalf the Grey transforms into Gandalf the White. And again, Jimmy Stewart, It's a Wonderful Life. The transformational scenes occur on a bridge.

I was a scoutmaster. When the Cub Scouts become Boy Scouts, they cross over this bridge and they don't really pay much attention to it. But I gave a little speech to the parents, like, look, this is a special time, you're going from one part of your life to another. And this is punctuated by going over a bridge. Bridges represent liminal spaces, liminal time, when you're not here, or there. Bridges are a great metaphor, because they're very narrow. And they're very risky, because if you fall off one way or another, if you don't keep a straight path, if you don't keep your eyes on the goal, tragedy can ensue. And sometimes it's foggy, sometimes it's slippery. So, it takes somebody who's been back and forth a few times, who's surefooted, who is focused to to cross that bridge.

And bringing together all those communities, translating their needs and their goals and their concerns from one party to another, can be very risky. If you don't do it correctly, it can really backfire. That's why I consider the role as bridge builder. The Pope himself is the official title is Pontifex Maximus. The greatest bridge builder. I don't think the CMO is the Maximus, but I think it's a very important bridge builder, we can all build bridges. And hopefully, the CMO can exemplify that.

John: The ironic thing is that if you go back the last 20-30 years, for a while there, there weren't that many physicians in leadership positions, at least on the community hospital side you always had academic hierarchies. But I think in the 50s, up to half of hospitals might have been owned by physicians, and then over time, it just everything got split. And so I think what you just said, it's important that physicians be in those roles. So I'm glad that there are more physicians and when I started as VPMA, our hospital had never had a VPMA or a CMO. So many hospitals now do.

Building on that, tell me in your opinion, the pros and cons of being a CMO. Like I say, I have many people that are a little reluctant to make that commitment. But to me, it was a natural thing to pursue. So, what are your feelings and some of the challenges and also just what you love about it?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Yeah, for me,this can sound a little pollyannish or saccharine, but for me, there's no downside. I guess it just fits my personality. When I was a brand new attending physician, I would see these larger forces at work in a hospital, budget, staffing challenges. And I'm like, man, I just want to be able to fix that I want to get involved in that. So it was kind of a natural course. I got my MBA so I could talk the talk and understand some of the discussions a little bit better, and then got more and more involved.

And it's just hard for me to resist trying to represent my fellow medical staff members, physicians, but pretty much trying to weigh in. If we're planning an expansion to the hospital or adding a new service line, or how do we go about on some major quality initiative, I really want to have a seat at the table and have a voice. So the best way to do that is to get into the C-suite, you get into medical leadership, develop those relationships and connections.

What I love most about the job is probably as a CMO, I'm an ambassador, plenty potentiary, I can go to any clinical department, I can go right down to pathology right now, talk to my chief pathologist. And he's got a two sided microscope, and he'll show me some slides which look like pink and purple squares. And he'll say, what is this, and I'll get it wrong every single time. Then we talk about his family. I get to know him as a person. And that builds a bond of trust, it furthers our relationship. I can walk out of there and I can go up to radiology and look at some of the images with the radiologists. And then I can walk in to the surgical suite and get gowned up and just see what the surgeons are going through, see what their day is like. Yeah, I can do the same thing for the hospitalists, for pediatrics.

I actually like being a medical student in my third and fourth years because you have a different rotation every month. It was always fresh, it was always interesting. And that's why I went into emergency medicine where you're expected to be somewhat proficient in almost anything because you don't know what's going to walk through the door. So, you have to know about pediatric medication doses, you have to know how to treat people struck by lightning or bitten by rattlesnakes or CHF in a hundred-year-old.

So, you have to know everything you have to know enough about every specialty. And then you wind up calling every specialty, sometimes in the middle of the night, but often during the course of your shift, either for follow-up or for intervention. And so, you have to learn how to speak their languages. And I just never really wanted to give that up. I didn't want to find myself just in one specialty and not continuing to learn and stay abreast of all the others.

So, I think that's the most fascinating aspect of being a CMO is, I'm pretty much given a hall pass to go wherever I want in the hospital and no one questions that. In fact, they kind of expect that. And that carries over. I get to go to the board meetings, to the finance meetings.

I can drop in on the chief nursing officer, chief quality officer. So for a person who's emergency medicine docs tend to be a little bit restless and always looking for some new stimulus, that was just a perfect job for me. So, that's my favorite aspect and one I would not ever want to give up.

John: Excellent. Now, it's interesting. We all have our own particular things that we like. I loved interacting with the board. I was on the every board meeting. I had an official presentation and I actually love spending an hour or two preparing that. I like being alone in my office and doing things to prepare for that. Whereas other people are like I want to be out there in the public. There's so many different things that one can do.

So, if there's someone in the audience who's either thinking about, well, would I like this or should I do this? Or I'm about 50% sure that I want to do this. What advice would you have for that person early in the thought process of pursuing a leadership position, let's say, rather than and it may be eventually CMO?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Yeah, I'll approach that a little bit obliquely. So, I've given a number of leadership talks over the years and folks are always asking, well, how do I get experience being a leader? I'm like, there's no end of opportunities. Having been in the Boy Scouts, I have three sons, and they're all Eagle Scouts now. But people are always looking for leaders. And it might not be the thing you want to do forever.

But whether it's your church or civic group, the schools, they're always looking for someone to step up. And I said, boy, if you can be a Scout leader, and hold the attention of 60, 10 and 11 year olds for 90 minutes, you can do anything. First of all, brush up your leadership skills wherever you can find the opportunity doesn't have to be in the hospital.

Secondly, the hospitals are always looking for medical leaders. I've seen a ocean sea change in the last 10 years. It used to be that our medical staff meetings, our quarterly medical staff meetings, were raucous affairs, we would have 60 or 70 people there.

As our models have become more contracted or employed physicians, I guess they don't have the same feeling of being community stakeholders as when it was mostly independent physicians in the community who had been there for decades. Now the days are long. And I think after a 12 hour shift, the hospitalists want to go home. And there's also the opportunity to Zoom into a meeting. So we don't see as many people attend in person. And it's getting harder and harder to get people to volunteer to spend an hour or two, even if it's once a month, in a peer review committee, because it does take some commitment to read over the cases and then show up for the committee. And we don't stipend or remunerate anyone except for the chair or the chief.

So it's volunteer work. We're always hungry for that. I'm sure every hospital has opportunities. If you want to get involved in peer review or bylaws or credentialing, or on the pharmacy and therapeutics committee, there's definitely opportunities there. Or the foundation or fundraising, or there's lots of opportunities.

And then you begin to network. I guess the next opportunity would be just to ask your chief medical officer. You could probably shadow him or her for the day. We all like to talk about ourselves. I'm doing it right now. If someone came to my office and said, hey, I'm interested in one day being a CMO or an assistant or vice, what's the path? And it depends on the person, on their personality, what they would like to do. Everyone does it differently. Every hospital has a different set of requirements or needs. So it's dependent, but I would be very willing to talk to them. I think anybody would.

Next you could buy the book and look through that. A little selfish promotion, or you could join one of the organizations, AAPL, ACHE. States have their own chapters. Every specialty has its own chapter as well. I think there's lots and lots of opportunities. You can write articles. Journals are always looking for articles. So there's a lot of ways to just get more involved. I don't think anybody in a medical leadership position would be reluctant or hesitant just to make the time for someone who expressed an interest and wanted to learn more.

John: The other thing I found useful, I don't know if it's still the same, but talking to the CEO, hey, what's your perspective on physician leaders and what should I do if I want to get up and be part of the senior executive team? So there's tons of opportunities.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Absolutely.

John: But we are going to run out of time. So let's talk about the book again. Let's start with what do you think is the best way to get the book? Should we go to the AAPL? Should we go to Amazon? Are there other ways of finding the book?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Either one of those is fantastic. If you go through AAPL and you want to order a lot, there are volume discounts or you can go to Amazon, it's easy. You can type in chief medical officer or even my last name, which is not too common, Olszyk book, and it'll pop up. You'll see a couple of Amazon reviews. Unfortunately, some were written by my children. Ignore those. And if your listeners or podcast watchers do get a copy, please do leave a review. It's important. But yeah, either way, you go through AAPL. I think there are some other platforms out there, but those are probably the two most common and easiest to go through.

John: That makes sense. What if they have a question for you? Can they reach out to you?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: They can reach out to me. Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, as you know so you can direct message me. People have done that and I've responded quickly.

John: Okay, good. Excellent. It's good sometimes just really to talk to the editor or author. Of course, you wrote several of the sections of the book in addition to being the chief editor and you said you had some help with that. But okay, well, any last bit of advice before I do let you go in terms of the future of medicine and physician leadership therein? Any other words of wisdom before I release you from this torture?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: No, it wasn't torture at all. I really enjoyed it. It's good seeing you again. And again, thank you for the opportunity. Clearly, like everything else, medicine is going to change more in the next 10 years than it has in the last two generations. So if you want to be part of that change, get into a leadership position, let your voice be heard. I think a pessimist is someone who takes no joy in being proven right. And an optimist is someone who thinks the future is yet uncertain. So if you want to help craft the future, get involved.

John: That's awesome advice again. And I think physicians do resonate with that for the most part. I want to thank you again for being my guest. I might have to have you come back and dig into one of these topics that's in the book, maybe in more detail at some point, but it's been great talking to you again. We appreciate you sharing your expertise with us today.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Cool. Thanks, John.

John: You're welcome.

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The post The Essential Guidebook to Being An Outstanding CMO appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

How to Recognize and Overcome Moral Injury in Healthcare

John Jurica — Tue, 28 May 2024 10:34:07 +0000

Interview with Dr. Jennie Byrne – 354

Today's episode features my interview with the author of Moral Injury: Healing the Healers.

We explore the concepts of burnout and moral injury within the healthcare profession through a detailed discussion with Dr. Jennie Byrne. Dr. Byrne shares her insights and experiences, highlighting the evolution of these issues, their impacts on healthcare professionals, and potential solutions.

Our Show Sponsor

For Podcast Listeners

John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Evolution from Burnout to Moral Injury

Burnout has long been recognized as a significant issue in healthcare, intensifying in discussions since the 70s and 80s. However, Dr. Jennie Byrne and others have shifted the focus to “moral injury” as a more accurate description of what healthcare professionals experience.

Moral injury involves:

participating in or witnessing events that conflict with one's personal or professional values,
under directives from superiors,
in which high stakes are involved.

This concept, originating from military contexts, provides a deeper understanding of the profound, soul-wounding experiences of many in the healthcare field.

Personal Stories and Systemic Issues

Dr. Byrne shares her journey and experiences in healthcare, from her varied educational background to her work in psychiatry and healthcare consulting. She highlights the systemic issues that contribute to moral injury, including the intense pressures and emotional challenges faced by medical professionals.

Personal anecdotes, such as her experience with a medical board investigation, illustrate how non-workplace-related events can also inflict significant wounds. These stories underscore the complexity of moral injury, extending beyond workplace stress.

Healing Strategies and Systemic Changes

Addressing moral injury requires both personal and systemic approaches. Dr. Byrne emphasizes the importance of open conversations and peer support as initial steps toward healing. Creating safe spaces for healthcare professionals to share their experiences and feel seen and heard is crucial.

On a systemic level, having dedicated resources such as a Chief Wellness Officer and structured support systems can provide lasting solutions. Additionally, small acts of kindness and advocacy work play a significant role in the healing process, fostering a culture of empathy and support within the medical community.

Summary

Dr. Jennie Byrne can be contacted and found through her professional website DrJennieByrne.com, where you can learn more about her background, services, and resources. Additionally, she shares insights and updates on her LinkedIn profile, where you can connect with her professionally and stay updated on her latest activities and contributions. Dr. Byrne's blog, also accessible through her website, offers information on various topics related to her fields of expertise.

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Links for Today's Episode:

Dr. Jennie Byrne's LinkedIn Profile
Dr. Byrne's Website
Dr. Byrne's Private Psychiatry Practice
Moral Injury: Healing the Healers, by Dr. Jennie Byrne (This is an Amazon affiliate link).
Dr. Warren Kinghorns's LinkedIn Profile
Amy Story's LinkedIn Profile
Humans in Healthcare
Monica Bean, BSN's LinkedIn Page
Dr. Tammie Chang's Website
Dr. Paul Dechant's Website
Preventing Physician Burnout: Curing the Chaos and Returning Joy to the Practice of Medicine (This is an Amazon affiliate link.)
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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 354

How to Recognize and Overcome Moral Injury in Healthcare

- Interview with Dr. Jennie Byrne

John: The concept of burnout's been around for a long time, I don't know, maybe decades if not centuries, but it seems like in the 70s and 80s, it started to be applied to healthcare just because of the intensity and the long periods of education and so forth. And I remember talking about it with colleagues, early in my career in the mid 80s. And then at some point, it started to evolve into this concept of moral injury as a better descriptor of what's actually happening. And so I thought it was about time that we just address that issue here on the podcast. So to that end, I'm very happy to have Dr. Jenny Byrne here on the show today. Welcome, Dr. Byrne.

Dr. Jennie Byrne: Hey, great to be here.

John: I'm really looking forward to picking your brain. You know, you've got the book and I was able to go through the book, but it definitely hits all the points that I'm interested in hearing about. So I'm glad to have you here and have you talk us through this. But I always wanna give my guests a chance to talk about themselves for a few minutes. I've had a very long and illustrious career, but talk about your medical training, what you do, what you do now for the most part, and then we'll get going into the topic of the day.

Dr. Jennie Byrne: Great, so I'm originally from Pennsylvania, and I don't know, I know you have a lot of physicians listening. I did not know I wanted to be a doctor when I grew up. I was a music performance major. Going into college, became a French major so I could live overseas. And it really wasn't until I came back, took a class in brain and behavior and fell in love with it. So pretty much my whole career circles around brain and behavior in some form or fashion. So I did an MD PhD. I don't know if you have any MD PhD listeners. Mudfud's out there, but I did an MD PhD in neurophysiology. Again, love the intersection of human brain and behavior. So I trained as a psychiatrist. I did my MD PhD at NYU, and then I did psychiatry at Mount Sinai. So I lived in New York City for a very long time, which was very exciting. And then I did a leap of faith down here at North Carolina, which is where I live now and I love it here. And I've done a whole bunch of different stuff. I'm always curious, I'm always learning, and I'm always saying yes to things and that's led me in a bunch of different directions. I've had a outpatient practice that I sold a couple of years ago. I grew that out over about nine year period. So I've practiced psychiatry for over 20 years. I got involved in Medicaid in North Carolina, helping design programs for integrated care, worked a lot with primary care docs, real fondness for primary care. Then I went to work as a national executive for a company called CareMore out of California. ran all of behavioral health and specialty for them nationally. So I saw what like a fully scaled healthcare organization looks like and kind of behind the curtain of what it's like to be an executive at some of these companies. But I love early stage. So that's what I do now. I advise early stage healthcare companies, a lot of which are mental health, but also value-based care and really just human behavior because that's pretty much everywhere in health, including physician behavior. You know, we're, human too, even though we don't like to admit it and we do dumb human stuff like everybody else. So that's what I focus on now. I do see patients a little bit and I have a practice that is not publicized, but for you all listening may be interesting, I take care of other physicians. So I have a really cool AI hybrid infused practice where I can care for other physicians as a psychiatrist, a therapist, or a coach.

John: That's all very interesting. And you talked about the healthcare advising that you do, I think, and there's probably at least five or 10 different things we could talk about on another podcast episode. But so I'm really glad you took the time to join us though to talk about this topic, moral injury. You know, I just, you know, like the book is what attracted me and because I had this question, a lot of bunch of questions about moral injury and what it means. And so let me, let's go to why did you write the book?

Dr. Jennie Byrne: While I was thinking about it, and I have to say, writing my second book in under a year wasn't really on the top of my list for this year. Um, but the reason I wrote it was because I, I feel passionate and I felt there was a real urgency to talk about this, now this year. And it really started where I was just having conversations with folks like your listeners or you, or, you know, colleagues, physicians, other clinicians. And maybe because I'm a shrink, people just tell me stuff, but What I heard really upset me and worried me. It's really bad. It's really bad out there Medical students are ready to leave the profession before they even get started Residents are ready to leave. People who are amazing clinicians are ready to leave people retiring early. I mean There's a reason for all of this and my kids Pediatrician left and it really threw me for a loop. I was like this was someone who was I don't know maybe late forties, early fifties, seemed to love her job and, and she just kind of disappeared and that really, you know, struck a chord with me. Like what is going on? And of course, in my private practice, I've taken care of physicians and I know that, you know, sometimes we look at our peers and they seem like they have everything together, but behind closed doors to their psychiatrist, you know, they'll tell me they're thinking about suicide or they're, they're paranoid or not to go off on a negative tangent, but you know, it's really bad. So I really wanted to figure this out and I wanted to know what was going on. So I started just doing some research, talking to people and came across the idea of moral injury from a colleague in North Carolina, whose name is Dr. Warren Kinghorn. He is a psychiatrist, but he also works with the veterans of the VA. And he also has a divinity degree. So he's got this really interesting intersection of faith, military and psychiatry. And he told me about moral injury. It's a concept that comes from the military.

John: You know, I have to admit too, that I've heard the same thing, because I'm talking to people looking about getting out of medicine. And what I've heard is that, you know, the med students will say, oh, I got to tough it out. You can't get any worse. And then they get in the residency and the burnout, whatever you want to call it, seems to be worse. And each year it gets worse, you know, depending on the residency. And it's just not very hopeful at this point, if that's kind of the way our system is built.

Dr. Jennie Byrne: So, so the definition of moral injury. So this is where kind of this topic about burnout versus moral injury. I think that words matter. I'm a psychiatrist. I think words matter. I think it's important for us as physicians and others to articulate what we feel inside. And that's particularly hard for us because our culture is one of, you know, repression and denial and all those coping skills we got to get through school. So we feel bad inside and we don't know why. So moral injury, the definition is threefold. The first is that you are part of something, do something, witness something that goes against your values, whether that's personal values or professional values. Second, that it is ordered or condoned by somebody superior to you. And third, that the stakes are high. So you can imagine all these military folks coming back from maybe combat zones where they weren't really in the line of fire, but they just really struggled to reintegrate into their lives and it wasn't PTSD and it wasn't depression. And it was really this like, I think about it as like a wound on your soul. And that's different than burnout. Burnout is more of this industrial energy concept that we're tired and fatigued and burned out and we just need to go recharge our batteries or take a vacation, do some yoga and come back and we'll be just fine. But I think it's like this wound, this metaphor of a wound really resonated with me. And so that's why I really liked this concept.

John: So that kind of gets to the root causes, I guess, is what's behind it. I mean, we have, like you said, what we're doing generally, depending on the circumstances, they're high stakes and yet we don't feel supported, we're being told what to do that may be against even what we think we should do. I know, did you get the sense during the pandemic that this was just like an overdrive?

Dr. Jennie Byrne: The problem predated, clearly the pandemic, right? Clearly, but the pandemic just put it into stark relief. And then post pandemic, there wasn't a period of healing. So the wound, if you think of, I talk in the book about staging it like a wound, the wounds were bigger, right? The pandemic really, really made those wounds gaping. And then we didn't have any opportunity to heal post-pandemic. So those wounds are still there and they're for most people still pretty gaping wounds.

John: Yeah, I think that was one of the notes to myself was to ask you to expound on that issue of like sort of using the pressure ulcer as, as you mentioned in the book, and I thought it was a pretty good analogy.

Dr. Jennie Byrne: I love the good visual, right? So I told a story in the book about one of my worst rotations in med school. I was at Bellevue training and I had to do vascular surgery because I couldn't get my top elective choice. For some reason, they put me in vascular surgery. I don't know why. And it was awful. And I got to know wounds really, really well during that rotation. And some of them were just horrific. And so this idea of what it really means to heal wounds. I think that's a great metaphor for a moral entry because you can look at a pressure, we stage pressure wounds in particular. So you kind of say, okay, stage one, there's redness, maybe a little tenderness. You can tell something's brewing in there, but if you just let it be, it'll probably be okay. To me, that's kind of the burnout, like take a vacation, change jobs. you know, something like that, that'll heal on its own. Then you break the surface, you know, the stage two, the surface is breached. Okay, well now the burnout's worse, and I don't think it's just gonna heal on its own. It needs something, maybe your own psychotherapy or coaching or adding consulting, doing something different, you know, maybe that will heal it, maybe that gives you enough to heal. And then you get to stage three where it's pretty messy. It's a pretty messy wound and there's really, you need systemic healing to be in place. You need the system, the environment around the wound to be properly maintained. It has to be clean, it has to be dry. Maybe it needs antibiotics. You know, you gotta do some stuff for that to heal. And then you get to stage four where you're, you know, you're in there looking at the bone. And that's what I remember from my vascular surgery days. You know, there were days where I was packing things where I could see the bone. And that is a whole other ball game. And some folks are at that place. And that's where, unfortunately, physicians in particular can internalize and go to really dark places. Or they can externalize and get really angry and hostile, which can lead to other problems. So I like this idea of a wound, because we can all kind of imagine that and understand healing, not fixing. I don't like the fix. I don't like burnout that we're gonna fix it. I think these are wounds, and wounds require healing, not fixing.

John: Now, the other thing that has occurred to me thinking about this topic is, and you mentioned the military, and we're talking about medicine. It's basically a workplace-related situation, is it not? I mean, I guess there might be other circumstances, but in most cases, the things that you've described are happening in a workplace of some sort. So it would seem to be something that OSHA or some other organization besides just the maybe the physician or the others affected by this, the military and so forth would have to address. What do you think about that?

Dr. Jennie Byrne: I think yes and no. I think sometimes that wound is the workplace. You know, the death by a thousand cuts, the EMR clicking and the, you know, 10 patients an hour and the blah, like, yes, yes. But there's more to it than that. And I think this is where the conversation gets interesting for me. So in addition to the workplace kind of injurious things, you know, I opened the book with a very personal, vulnerable story about an incident that somebody reported me to the medical board. That had nothing to do with the workplace. That was purely about me having to deal with someone questioning my values and my skills as a clinician, even though I was not in the wrong. And at the end of the day, it didn't really matter. But I had to go through this huge process where other physicians on the medical board had a process which wounded me. And I had to go take a class on controlled, on opioid prescribing, which was ironic because I wasn't even prescribing opioids. And when I went to that class, they flashed slides of jails where they send doctors who prescribe opioids. That was what I sat through, you know, and that wounded me at such a deep level. I can't tell you, even writing about it for the book really was painful. And my hope is that by writing and sharing the story, it heals me as well as maybe healing others who have had similar things. So Sometimes the injuries don't come from the workplace. Sometimes they come from a lack of respect in the community, the way we're treated. Sometimes it comes from our peers who injure us, whether intentionally or not. Sometimes it comes from just the difficulty of managing chronic illness with so much information that we can't possibly keep up. Our human brains can't possibly keep up. Sometimes it comes from trying to manage this increasing intersection of things like gender and politics and sexuality and like culture and like, you know, and it's really hard. It's not like it used to be. I have a grandfather that was a doc in the 40s, you know, and I have his little black bag sitting over here. You can't see it. Things were a lot different back then and it's just not that way anymore. So I guess the answer is yes to the workplace but also other things which we don't talk about as much.

John: Well, that in my mind also kind of points to, let's say being sued, a lawsuit, I would think. That adds like a whole another layer of pressure.

Dr. Jennie Byrne: And I'm sure you have people listening who probably have had these things happen and they've never told anyone. I didn't tell anyone about my medical, I was so embarrassed, ashamed, you know, pained by it. I didn't even tell anybody. So I'm sure there are folks listening who've had, like you said, a malpractice suit, a patient complaint, a medical board issue. You know, people don't talk about these things. I'm sure that people out there have had this happen and I'm sure that it was wounding to them the same way that it was wounding to me.

John: This is a little bit of a left turn just for a moment, but one of the things that you just mentioned is I did an interview some time back about sham peer review, where the peer review process was actually being sort of misused to get someone off staff, destroying their career and so forth. I don't know if you've experienced, if you've coached, if you've treated people under that, that could be almost unbearable kind of pressure.

Dr. Jennie Byrne: I have. And it's something that unfortunately that's kind of part of our culture, you know, the old school medical culture, right, of being a resident and being shamed, publicly shamed in front of others as the way to learn. That's just kind of part of our culture and it doesn't make it right. But we still do that to each other. And it's not, I don't blame, I don't blame the other physician doing it because when you're in a negative, stressed burned out, time crunched, injured mindset, is very easy to injure somebody else, whether intentionally or not. So I don't blame them. I have deep empathy for them as well, because I know that under other circumstances, they probably wouldn't do that to their colleague.

John: Well, I think we should shift gears and talk about what are the solutions or what can we do to at least ameliorate, if not eliminate this problem eventually. What thoughts do you have on that?

Dr. Jennie Byrne: Well, one of the best news is, I know this is kind of a serious topic, but one of the best news is that just talking about it is part of the solution. So we know this from the military. Just talking about it, being able to identify that feeling that's inside of you, being able to share your story in a safe place, not that the other person can change what happened to you, but feeling seen and heard by a peer is incredibly healing. So, talking about it, having the words to describe what's going on, and having others in our ecosystem listen to us and giving them the language to talk to us about what's going on. Because I can tell you, I work with a lot of administrators, executives, tech people. They're not greedy, evil people. I know that's the narrative that's convenient. No, it's a convenient narrative. And sometimes it's true, but mostly they're trying to do the right thing and they could make money more money doing something else too. So they lack the understanding of what it's like and we don't help them. We don't give them the language to talk to us and we act like we're perfect. So I think just talking about it and giving others the tools to have real conversations is something which actually doesn't cost any money and is incredibly healing. So that's the first thing. Yes to the system change. Yes to the like designing clinical products for clinicians, understanding the psychology of clinicians. Yes to all of those things too. And then I think, you know, I write about in the book, I do believe in butterfly effects, especially from one clinician to another. Or as a patient, like I'm a patient, we're all patients too, right? It's not just us as clinicians, we're all patients too. And I always tell someone, you know, when you see your clinician, tell them thank you for all you do. Just do that. Like small acts of kindness, they don't fix the wound, but they can really help. So the more small acts of kindness and empathy that you can show others or call your peer. I had a psychiatrist that was a mentor of mine send me an email today. He said, I read your story in the book and I can't believe I was so upset by what you wrote. And he said, I had something happen to me like that. And I never told anyone. And I was like, I can't believe, you know, and just so that sharing and that kindness, especially from one peer to the other. So taking that five minutes to write that email to your peer, like, you know, I was in a really tough spot the other day and you came and you told me this, that really helped me. Or if you see your colleague who's struggling, say, I don't know what's going on. It seems like something's gone on and I'm here if you want to chat with me or what, you know, like these small things I believe really matter. So in addition to the bigger systemic change, I do think there are things that we can do right now that actually don't cost any money.

John: You know, as you were talking, it occurred to me something else that I've experienced for times in my life where there were issues. One was a support group for divorced men and I for a reason that I won't disclose now, but I mean, I attended Al-Anon and you know, those are supposed to be private and not anonymous per se, but they're not discussed outside and it's supposed to be supportive and all that. Have you ever seen that ever used with physicians?

Dr. Jennie Byrne: Yeah, so for example, some resources to check out for your audience, so Amy's story, She is a PA by training. She has a company called Humans in Healthcare, and that's exactly what they do. It's clinician groups where they share stories. Sometimes they grieve together for patients that have died or their own losses. She's doing amazing work. There are a ton of coaches out there. So if you're a nurse, probably don't have nurses listening, but. There's a woman, a nurse, Monica Bean, who does this for nurses. She's a nurse by training. Trying to think of some others. I could, you know, have people reach out to me. I can share some of these resources, but there are lots of groups of physicians coming together. There's one woman that focuses on moms, physician moms. And I did forget to mention one thing that's important for your audience to know that. One of the ways you can heal that I've heard from my interviewer interviewees is through advocacy and through feeling like you're part of the solution. So if folks are thinking about advising other companies, taking a leadership mentorship roles or being an advocate for even if it's just a single patient or another physician or that really can help you heal too. So If you find a way to have an impact that's not just your day-to-day with patients, often that's quite healing.

John: Well, I just took a quick peek back at the index of the book, Moral Injury, and I think a lot of these things are really addressed there in much more detail, so I would encourage everyone to get the book. So let's talk about that. How do we get the book, and where do we find it, and so forth? And how do we find you?

Dr. Jennie Byrne: So if anyone else has written a book, you'll know that Amazon is where all the books are. So the book is on Amazon as well as my first book which is called Work Smart. And if anybody is interested in a book club or sometimes we'll go do a talk where we get a whole bunch of books, just reach out to me if you're interested in anything like that. In terms of getting a hold of me for questions about advisory work, again, LinkedIn is a great place to just send me a message. I do have a website, drjennieburn.com, which is kind of a list of some of the stuff I've done. And then I'm gonna share with this group. I don't share this with all the people I do podcasts with. I have a small private practice that is not advertised where I care for other physicians, whether that be coaching, psychotherapy, or I think 12 states I can do medications as well. And that is called constellationpllc.com So you can also just reach out if you need help. If I can't help you, I'll do my best to find somebody else in your state or wherever you need help.

John: I'm gonna put a dig in here against the industry right now just for a second, only because I think I read in the book that the number one cure for moral injury is not resilience training. Is that my off base there? But because I get offended when they tell me that, that's the solution.

Dr. Jennie Byrne: I think that's happily falling out of favor this year. My statement in the book is I believe clinicians are inherently resilient. I don't know how on earth anyone gets through all that training without being resilient. I mean, seriously. So that doesn't mean we're not human and we need help. But I think if my point is if a clinician of peers, they're not resilient, you should be asking what's going on.

John: Hmm, because they've reached -they've gone way beyond the point where it's not dangerous, you know. Have you seen any big organizations? This is what I keep looking for because I know of physicians who have addressed burnout, moral injury, you know as a coach or something and they'll spend a lot of time with an organization But have you seen any put into place something that is lasting and is effective over time?

Dr. Jennie Byrne: So I think the most effective long-term solutions come from leadership when they put, when they basically put money into it. So when a leader, a CEO or something, you know, creates a wellness group, like a chief wellness officer, and really devotes significant resources to it, that's probably the best long-term solution is to actually have people internal to the organization who are driving it forward. So I, one of the people I talked to was Dr. Tammy Chang. So she's been doing this for a long time. She's a great resource to reach out to. She's at a health system as their chief wellness officer and she's just a wealth of information. And then there's some others who do like private interventions, but company solutions. So Dr. Paul Duchant does that. So he's a good resource. He and Diane Shannon wrote a really good book on physician burnout, which I recommend as well. So there are folks who do it. Now, he leans a little heavy on the operational end of things, and I'm more the shrink. I really think that the healing has a lot to do with our hearts, not just operations. So we, I don't wanna say we disagree. We don't disagree. I just, I think we undervalue the emotional component of change. And I think it's, it's actually easier than we think it is sometimes to connect with someone at that like heartfelt level, and make a real difference in their life. I don't think it always has to be fixed the EMR fixed. I mean, yes, do those things, but and have that human connection that heart part because I think that's how we heal. It's not just our bodies, right? Like our hearts have to heal.

John: Very good. But I appreciate you taking the time and sharing all this with us, giving me a little more clarity on exactly what it is. And like you said, the metaphor, the pressure ulcer, trying to explain it to people. And you gave me a little hope there at the end that there are people that are making a difference in this area. So I'm going to have to let you go soon. We're pretty much out of time. But I guess, do you have any last words of advice for, let's say, the listeners who might feel... I mean, one of the reasons they're looking sometimes to change their career or their life is because they're having this particular problem. Any other advice for them individually to how to find a solution for themselves?

Dr. Jennie Byrne: Yeah, the main thing is really you're not alone. There are a lot of us out there, we're feeling the same way, we may not be talking about it, and you're not helpless. A lot of us, we get in that negative mindset, we feel very helpless, you're not helpless. You have tremendous skills, you're in tremendous demand, you've come a long way, right? Like you have more control than you think you do, and there are people out there who will help you. So I guess my only precautionary thing would be, leaving the practice of clinical medicine altogether may not heal all those wounds. So I still see patients, it's important to me and I do advising for a living. So just a little like, you know, it may not heal everything just to leave. So if you are interested in doing clinical practice and doing something else, you can do both. You don't have to give up one for the other. It may not fix all your wounds just to leave clinical medicine because it's probably, there was a reason you went through medicine in the first place. And that part of you is important.

John: I used to focus almost entirely on like, what are the options for just getting out? But I'm convinced now that there's so many options for staying in. If you can kind of carve out the things that are making your life miserable or that you're just reacting to in whatever way you're reacting to, get rid of the bad parts, keep the good parts. And there are more and more ways of doing that, even though the employment has been going up, I think we're reaching a point where you can do DPC and whatever, other forms of practice and just set boundaries and write your list of your must haves and really start to take control. But what you said earlier, people don't even realize that they're in the midst of burnout or moral injury. So they don't really look at it that way and take a step.

Dr. Jennie Byrne: And one final thing would be too for those who are a little later in their career, a little older like me, sometimes being a mentor, being a support for younger early stage folks, that's really rewarding too. So if you decide I just can't go back to clinical practice and maybe you wanna do advisor or other work, but you can still find ways to support those who are coming up who maybe have a little more energy. And maybe you can prevent them from feeling so wounded so they can go and do that good work. That can be a really wonderful way to stay connected with clinical medicine in a way that maybe supports you in whatever stage of your career that you're in.

John: Awesome. Thanks for that. Thanks for taking the time to talk to us today. I really appreciate it. I advise everyone get the book, go to Amazon, Moral Injury. Let's see, what's the byline? Moral injury?

Dr. Jennie Byrne: Healing the healers.

John: Healing the healers, okay. I had that written down here somewhere, but it's really good and it's pretty comprehensive. I mean, there's a lot in there starting from recognizing it to even potential solutions. So it's a great resource. Okay, thanks Jenny, I really appreciate it. And hopefully maybe we can have you come back and talk about some of the other things you're up to at some point.

Dr. Jennie Byrne: Thank you for having me and to everyone out there listening, be well, please take care of yourselves, please. Please get help if you need it.

John: All right, bye now.

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How Does a Consultant Start a New Telemedicine Service?

John Jurica — Tue, 09 Jan 2024 13:31:49 +0000

Interview with Dr. Luissa Kiprono – Episode 334

In today's episode, we explore the entrepreneurial journey of Dr. Luissa Kiprono who recently decided to start a new telemedicine service. She is a maternal-fetal medicine specialist who transitioned her traditional practice into telemedicine with the creation of TeleMed MFM.

The interview delves into the pivotal moments, challenges, and strategic decisions that led to the establishment of this innovative healthcare model. During our conversation, Luissa describes the importance of self-discipline and adaptability when making such a significant commitment.

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Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.”

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Evolution of TeleMed MFM: Dr. Luissa Kiprono's Entrepreneurial Journey

Dr. Luissa Kiprono faced challenges when her previous practice closed unexpectedly, leading her to choose the less-traveled path of starting TeleMed MFM. Motivated by a desire for independence and the vision to extend high-risk pregnancy care globally, she committed to a telemedicine-centric approach.

Her strategic decisions included establishing TeleMed MFM as the first to integrate telemedicine into maternal-fetal medicine services so completely. The practice adopted a hybrid model, combining consulting and procedures. Dr. Kiprono started by partnering exclusively with a prominent organization in Kansas City.

Push, Then Breathe: Dr. Luissa Kiprono's Memoir and Thought Empowerment Platform

Dr. Kiprono also described the other major project she has been working on for the past few years, her memoir, “Push, Then Breathe: Trauma, Triumph, and the Making of an American Doctor,“ revealing her experiences from the time she was a 19-year-old immigrant to becoming a successful American doctor.

Summary

To connect with Dr. Luissa Kiprono and learn more about TeleMed MFM and her upcoming memoir, “Push, Then Breathe: Trauma, Triumph, and the Making of an American Doctor,” you can reach out to her at (210)-660-9906 or via email at DrK@TeleMedMFM.com.

Visit the TeleMed MFM for information on the practice. For updates and insights, explore Dr. Luissa Kiprono's thought empowerment platform at drluissak.com and sign up for her newsletter by emailing hello@drluissak.com. Stay tuned for the release of her memoir on February 13, 2024, available in hard copy, audiobook, and Kindle formats through major retailers in the United States.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 334

- Interview with Dr. Luissa Kiprono

John: Today's guest first appeared on the podcast in July of 2021, and since then a lot of things have changed. She's a maternal fetal medicine specialist who's now providing care using telemedicine. I definitely wanted to hear about that. She's a University of Tennessee physician executive MBA graduate and holder. I just remind you of that because that's one of our sponsors. And she's also the author with a soon to be released memoir. This should be fun and interesting. Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Luissa Kiprono.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Good morning, John. I'm very excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me back to your podcast, Physician NonClinical Careers.

John: Yeah. I think it was very inspirational last time, what you were doing then. And now some new things have happened, which I find extremely interesting and again, inspirational. Let's just get right into it. For the listeners, if you go back to episode, I think it was 204, you can learn more details of Dr. Kiprono's background and so forth. But to get us started, just go through a little bit of a list of what's happened since we talked back in 2021, if you would.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Okay. In August, 2022, right at the conclusion of the COVID pandemic, my organization pediatrics decided to shut doors of the practice I was leading at the time, Texas Perinatal Group. That came as a surprise, I have to say. And at that time, I really came at a crossroads, whether to sign another agreement with another organization or to take a different road, that less travel road, and that is to open my own practice. And really I realized how exhausting has been to invest in someone else's dream and in someone else's endeavor. I said I might as well just start investing in my own. So that is how TeleMed MFM was born.

John: Now, was that from the very get go going to be heavily involving or solely involving telemedicine type of interactions?

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: It was started a hundred percent with a vision to become telemedicine. I have to say that I had plenty of experience in the matter due to the way COVID kind of pushed us with medicine and medical practices. But also I was the first practice in both CompHealth agency, which is the Locum Tenants Agency, and in pediatrics medical group that as a maternal lymph fetal medicine practice would hire and maintain telemedicine in their services. Not only during the pandemic, but also up to the day that the practice closed in August, 2022.

I did have experience in the matter, and I think that's where it kind of started. I was like "I know what to do, I know how to handle it, and it works." But it was scary. I have to tell you, it was exciting and it was scary, to both start a new practice in my fifties and also to start not only just any practice, telemedicine in maternal fetal medicine.

John: Yeah, anytime you make a change like that, it's both. You've got all the business aspects of it, and then also like, "Okay, how am I going to deliver care? What's the best way to do it?" And in telemedicine, I have zero familiarity with. That's like how in that environment you deliver your services. You're to be commended for that and I think when you do that, while it's very stressful, and it probably takes some time and some money, as you mentioned, you have more freedom and independence. So, it's a trade off.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Yes, it is. You are your own boss. You also are doing telemedicine, you practice medicine from the comfort of your private office, home office. But I always give award to the wisest, to the newly grads, and the newly grads are excited. Let me tell you. This generation is like, "Oh, yes, this is so exciting, we're going to do telemedicine" and so forth. It does take a lot of self-discipline, and it does take a lot of fortitude to not cut corners because it's easy. Just think about what used to happen during COVID. When Zoom meetings start, you're like, "Oh, I got all this freedom. I can also check an email. Oh, I can also do this. I can also do that." So here you are at the end of the meeting, you're like, "What exactly the meeting was all about?" Those same dangers come when you do telehealth. But it comes with a price.

So you do have to be self-disciplined, you have to say "How it would be if I am the patient and the physician that can renders care on the other side, doesn't pay attention, and they don't give me the best care that is because they do it through telemedicine or they miss something?" You do have to have respect, and also you be yourself like your watchdog, "Hey, I got to do it, this is my job." It's only the place that's different. The care, the connection with the patient, the services render for the patient. They should always be there just like I would be physically in the same office with them.

John: One of the things that attracted me to want to talk to you about this, that prompted me is that I get questions all the time from I'll just say specialists. Some of them are surgeons, some are medical subspecialists. And in their minds they're like, "Well, yeah, primary care, urgent care, that's fine. Telemedicine is very common. People have low risk, colds and respiratory, and they can get treated over the phone or the telemedicine service for a UTI or something."

But it's a different type of telemedicine when you're a consultant. And I've seen surgeons and other specialists do this, but never have I talked to a perinatologist that has done this. And so, my question is, tell me a little bit more about what the interactions are like. Since you have really a close relationship normally with the obstetricians as well as the patient, are you interacting with both and do you do some consults with an obstetrician in which you don't actually talk to the patient? Or are they always involving the patient directly?

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: It is very involved. Communication is the key, at least when it comes from me. My advice is always, always communicate. I'm an over communicator. I speak with my obstetrician, that if I make any changes to the care and we switch gears, I call my referring OB provider, and I say, "Hey, this has come up. This is how I recommend." Then I speak with my patients after I discuss it with the obstetrician. Just imagine everything the same like you would go in a doctor's office. The only difference is through the screen. We are talking live here doing a podcast. Same thing I'm talking live with my patient. Patient comes in, whether it is a video consult from the comfort of their home, or it's a telehealth consultation that is in the practice in the hospital or in the MFM practice where the patient is scheduled to come.

The patient gets an ultrasound. I read the ultrasound, and then we have a consultation. And I conveyed the findings to the patient. We discuss just like you would talk face-to-face with the physician. Medical history, go through the entire finding of the ultrasound, counseling, render an assessment and discuss the plan. And then I finish a consultation through the EMR and sign it. And that's it. It's very, very doable. It goes very seamless. There will be things. Think about it when you are in the office. Does your computer need an update? Sure. Is your computer maybe going to crash and you need to reboot? Yes. Do you have EMR when you go and work in a brick and mortar office? Yes. Or in the hospital? Yes.

All those are happening. The only difference is I am not physically with the patient in the room but my sonographer are by my nurses. If I need to send the patient to the hospital, I call the nurse, let her know. I call the obstetrician and the nurse calls the hospital and the patient shows up just like that.

There are a couple of procedures that obviously I cannot do like amniocentesis, DBS. Those are for prenatal diagnosis of congenital or genetic abnormalities. But that is when the physician who is physically in the office comes into place. And that brings me to my next point, hybrid practice. The hybrid medical practices of healthcare are here to stay because you have to have the hybrid. Think about if you have a team that some of them do just consulting, but some of them do also procedures. People who do procedures have to be during the procedure in that room, in the operating room, or if I have an amniocentesis, the physician, the MFM that is in the office that day, they will go ahead and they take care of that for us.

John: Ah, okay. I've talked to people that are doing telemedicine as primary care. They're constrained by where they're licensed, states they have to be licensed in multiple states, although I know some of that during the pandemic was a little loosened up a little bit. It was a little easier to get. Do you focus on certain locations? Is it kind of local, even though it's telemed or is it countrywide? How does that work?

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: I am licensed in multiple states. Every state has its own slight differences. Now we have Compact. Compact made it easier and more streamlined to be able to be licensed faster in different states. I personally hold multiple licenses, but right now, as a matter of fact, my practice has signed an agreement, an exclusive agreement with a very well-known large organization in Kansas City, Missouri. TeleMed MFM is providing maternal fetal medicine services virtually for their patients.

John: Okay. Yeah, that kind of segues into my question I had about how do you get the word out and where do you find business? And so, it sounds like at least one way is to identify a particular organization, work directly with them. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: We did a lot of marketing, but when I say marketing, it's not like you've got to put an ad in the paper or an ad in YouTube. That doesn't work that way. A lot has to do with your expertise. Maternal fetal medicine, it's a very close knit environment. The MFM subspecialty really was formed 50 years ago. 50 years ago next year. It is a relatively new specialty. And there are about 1,300 of us, but only about 900 to 1,000 that practice full-time. Now, if you take that to 340 million United States citizens and 77 million women between the age 15 and 49, which we consider the fertile age, you can imagine how big the need is, how tiny the group that we are in of specialists.

To go back to your question, when it comes to marketing or advertising, I started working for this organization through an agency, through my company. My company was contracted by the agency to work for this organization, and they learn how I work, they learn my practices. They were very impressed with my ethics and my expertise. They say we just would like to contract directly with you and do partnership between your company and our organization. Without saying, I was extremely excited. And we actually just executed the partnership last month.

John: Nice. Excellent. How does the lifestyle for you doing your practice this way, have you stuck pretty much to the same kind of hours? Or is there more flexibility doing it this way? That's one of the things that attracts certain physicians to telemedicine because they don't have to travel, obviously. It's very much more efficient. Tell me how it's affected your lifestyle.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: I worked the same hours that I were before. Actually, I worked more. I work more now than I worked before. When you look at any company, any business that you start, I want to make a caveat, you will work a lot more in the beginning to start it. It just has to. It's just thinking about building momentum to have this business going. But I do work the same, if not more, because when I'm done with my clinical duties, then I start working the administrative duties after hours for my practice. And also now with my adventure, you do have to have the electronic capabilities. I do have literally six monitors in my office. And so, I high grade monitors. I have to have a high speed internet, camera video equipment, audio equipment. That is my livelihood. That's my job is to read ultrasound. I just don't have small screen laptops and have large screen monitors because I read ultrasound about 90% of the time with or without consultations.

That are the requirements that have to be in place in order to do this kind of endeavor. Yes, it is more relaxed because I work from my home office, from my private office. But again, going back to that same caveat that I made the beginning of the podcast, be your own watchdog. Stay disciplined. Because it's easy to become relaxed because you are at home. Well now, you're still at work, you are not at home, you are at work. Home is you go to the other room after your work is done.

John: I'm not exactly sure how your practice worked before. This question might be stupid, but I can imagine especially in MFM, maybe you're doing the ultrasound yourself physically, or you have ultra-sonographers that you typically work with. And now I'm assuming that you're actually getting a lot of different ultrasounds that you're reading from different ultrasonographers maybe. How is the quality? I know you've got the technology, I'm just wondering if it's affected your ability to feel the confidence in what you're looking at.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: It is an excellent question. It is not a silly question. As a maternal fetal medicine physician, we do have highly trained sonographers. They are not radiologists and they are not OB-GYN sonographers. They are sono techs who spend about 18 months to specialize in fetal ultrasounds. When it comes to that, I had other offers prior to this and they said, "Well, you're just going to read the ultrasound, that an OB tech is going to do it." And I said, no, it just doesn't cut it because I am not there to be able to troubleshoot and I need certain images.

What happened is the maternal fetal medicine, sonographers are going by strict guidelines, imposed by AIUM. They are ARDMS certified and fetal echo certified. Think about this. Just like everything else, if you have a radiologist that reads general X-rays or general MRIs, then he'll have a radiologist who specialized in fetal MRIs, and then you go further, radiologists that have specialized in neuro fetal MRIs. That is so important for me to be able to have this at my fingertips, to trust my staff. I have to trust my sonographers because they are my eyes. And let's say they didn't get the image. I would just ask them, "Hey, can you get another image for me?" And they know exactly what I'm looking for.

Otherwise, the learning curve is very steep. Especially if I'm not there, the trust is not there. Just like you said, the liability is very high on my end because if they miss something, then I miss something, then the patient doesn't get the counseling they should have. The follow-up is not the proper follow-up. And then at delivery, the baby doesn't get the care that they should have been anticipated otherwise.

John: Yes, we don't like surprises in medicine and we really don't like surprises in maternal fetal medicine. I happen to have two daughters that are pregnant at the moment. I'm hearing a lot of things third hand. And one thing is not an ultrasound that's not given the right answers. That was very interesting. We're going to run out of time soon and we're not going to run out quickly because I have a whole other topic I want to talk to you about, but I do want you to go ahead and give the website for the telemedicine MFM business just in case there's physicians listening who may need your services or want to learn more or even contact you on LinkedIn if they're starting something similar.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Sure. My practice number is (210)-660-9906. My website, you can find me at telemedmfm.com. And my email is DrLuissaK@TelemedMFM.com. If you go to my website, you can always find there the contact info. And please send me an email, ask me a question. I'll be very, very happy to share my knowledge with you and my expertise. Both how to launch a telemedicine practice, and also how to navigate through the intricacies with both medical but also insurance and licensing.

John: Excellent. I will put all those in the show notes, of course, and even in the email that I send out about the episode. We'll have all those links and a few others that we're going to talk about. But in the process that you've described, you've been busy starting this, but in the meantime, you've also had another activity. I guess I wouldn't call it a hobby, something going on, and it's about a book, a memoir. And so, we definitely want to hear about that as well. When did that start to come up as something you wanted to do?

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Five years ago I embarked on this journey writing my own memoir. This memoir takes the reader on a journey that I have started back in 1987 as a 19-year-old woman immigrant who came to America for two months. I came to America to meet and know my father. And that turned into a lifetime. And without spoiling the drum roll and transferred the book, it's been a journey. It's been a journey of a lifetime. And that journey of 15 years really takes me and it takes the reader all the way to my graduation date in 2002.

And at this time, I'm thrilled to announce the debut of this first nonfiction book. Its name is Push, Then Breathe: Trauma, Triumph, and the Making of an American Doctor. At the same time, I'm launching my platform, it's called Dr. Luissa K. And it is a thought empowerment platform in both leadership and overcoming trauma and thriving by achieving one's own potential. Date of release is February 13th, 2024, and it's going to be launched at all the major retailers in the United States in hard copy, audiobook and Kindle format.

John: Nice. Is this like a traditionally published book through a large publisher?

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: It is a hybrid publishing. The publisher is Greenleaf Publishing Group.

John: Now, we always have questions to address with authors and writers. It's not easy, it's not easy to organize. What method did you use to write? Some people will do blocks three or four hours at a time. Other people will maybe work on a weekend. How did you actually sit down to create this book?

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: I started the first chapter of this book 35 years ago in Romania. Then I wrote that first chapter and I put it aside because life got in the way big time. About five years ago, I found myself recording every morning for about half an hour. I was very intent into doing it. And it lasted about two weeks. When you run a practice, at that time as I was running that huge 52 employee practice. And then also you have a family, children. Life, let's call it. I said I really want to write this book, but there is no way I can write this in my lifetime at the pace I'm going. I started looking at ghost writers and I partnered with my book coach and ghost writer. And that is how the book was finally written through both our collaborations.

I want to tell you something that we all physicians and really some non-physicians, but usually type A personalities, we feel that we must write this book like as if I have to physically write it. But what I can tell you is that the thought out there is that it's actually smarter to work with a book coach and a ghost writer than trying to do it yourself.

It's like delegating. Think about if you are in your office and you're trying to do everything. Trying to vitalize somebody, take fetal heart tones, put the patient in the room, do the ultrasound, be the physician, check out the person, and start that again. How long can you last? You won't last. It's not sustainable. Probably you'll last about three days.

Same thing here. Can you be a full-time physician and write the book and be a mom or a dad and do it all perfectly? No, you can't. You have to A) prioritize, B) work smart. It still took us a couple of years. The book was finalized in December, 2022, which was last year. And then in March was accepted for publication by Greenleaf Publishing Group. And it's now in print, the audiobook is on the way. And it's happening. It's really, really close. The hybrid publishing it's very, very convenient. They work very well in many, many ways. It's hybrid. You do have to put your buy-in and you have to do work and also financially you will have an interest in it.

However, they will put all the wills in motion for publishing and marketing the book. You tell them how much or how little you want them to do, and they will do it for you, and you will approve everything along the way. I would be more than happy John to have a separate podcast to just talk about the process. It is an amazing process that I knew nothing about, like literally nothing. It's unnerving. And I can say it's like rapid fire sequencing. We have to do this, we have to do this, we have to do this. Why? It has to be approved by you, the author. Because at the moment, they accept you and then you sign the agreement with them. We'll also sit down and figure out when do you want this book to be released? And now everything starts dominoing backwards because you are on a schedule. And everybody's going to know that your book comes out, in my case February 13th. Well, we don't want to arrive on February 12th and realize there is no book to be presented.

John: Yeah, absolutely. If I'm not mistaken, and I've talked to other authors, some of the benefits of doing the hybrid is you definitely have more control. If you do a big publisher, one of the big three or four, number one, you lose pretty much all control and they're going to tell you what title they want and how the chapters are going to be put. And it takes a lot longer. And in a hybrid, I think you get to reserve a little bit more of the income that comes into. I'd say most of the guests I've had that have written books have gone that route. Now I've got a few that will self-publish, but I think most everybody's going the route you've gone, especially with one of the really good top-notch hybrid publishers. Boy, this sounds fantastic.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Well, just to put a little bit of data out there. 80% of people want to write a book. Out of which 1% finish writing the book. Out of which 1% get accepted for publication. Even with all that, there are about a million books coming on the market every year in the United States, and 4 million all comers, meaning 1 million that are accepted for publication and four millions that includes also self-publishing a year. It's crazy. That's just amazing to me how much influx it is.

John: Well, congratulations.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Thank you.

John: Here's what we're going to do. You're going to have to remind me about a week or two beforehand so we'll promote that at that time. And we can obviously promote it through this podcast, which it'll probably be the beginning of January when people see this and hear this. But definitely do something special for that February date. That'll be fun. Tell us where to go to look for that.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Okay. To learn more about my book and my platform, my website is www.drluissak.com. My email is hello@drluissak.com. If you sign up for my newsletter, you're going to get it in the mail, but also bring up the updates, any news that come out. And also just to put it out there, just in case anyone wants to join me, February 13th, that will be a destination book launch.

John: Okay. You're going to have to send me the specifics on that so I can put that in the show notes.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Sure, we can do that.

John: All right. I think we are getting out of time at this point, but this has been a very interesting episode. We learned a lot about how to implement telemedicine, the pros, the cons, some things to keep in mind. Definitely some good advice. And then about a memoir that's coming out... From the time this is posted about a month after this is going to be posted. So, maybe we'll have some people follow you for that as well. Any last words of advice to our listeners about anything that we've talked about today before I let you go?

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: What I would like to say is that my advice regarding personal growth, follow your heart's desire. If there is something that keeps you up at night, an idea or a goal, whether it is opening a practice, starting a business, or just open up a flower shop. And if that is what you really truly want, if when you talk about it, your eyes are sparkling and your heart starts beating faster, do it. Just do it because you'll never regret it. And don't be afraid that you're going to fail because you know what? You are never going to know unless you try something, especially when you really, really are passionate about it.

John: Thank you for that advice. Very inspirational. You've got this book pretty much in the can we would say. Are you thinking of doing another book later? I'm going to ask that question. Or are you going to rest for a while and think about it?

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: I am going to rest for a while. These last few years have been quite eventful, especially last year with the practice and the entire book publishing. So I will take a break and let's just see. I won't smell the roses for a couple before I decide where am I going to move, what's my next steps are in life.

John: Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll be watching from the sidelines and if you do something else really interesting, I'll have you back on the podcast. Thanks a lot for being here today, Luissa. It's been very fun and educational really.

Dr. Luissa Kiprono: Thank you. I really appreciate the time. And thank you for inviting me for this conversation, John. Happy holidays.

John: You too. Bye-Bye.

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Top Advice for Generating More Money with Less Hustle – 300

John Jurica — Tue, 16 May 2023 12:00:48 +0000

Interview with Dr. Latifat Akintade

In today's episode, Dr. Latifat Akintade describes how to generate more money with less hustle as she tells us about her newly released book, Done With Broke: The Woman Physician’s Guide to More Money and Less Hustle.

Dr. Latifat is a Gastroenterologist and founder of The Money Coaching School for Badass Women Physicians. She combines her interest in personal finance, her training as a certified life coach, and her passion for physician wellness.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Building Wealth as a Physician: The Hustle and Broke Mindset

As physicians, we often find ourselves caught up in a hustle of energy where we're always searching for the next big thing to make money. This mindset can be detrimental, leading to a fear of missing out and causing us to focus on short-term gains rather than building wealth in the long term. However, with focused energy and strategic planning, there are many ways to build wealth and achieve financial stability.

This mindset can be changed. By acknowledging our past experiences and focusing on simple, timeless principles of investing and building wealth, we can overcome our fear of financial instability and live confidently with our money working for us. By cultivating new habits and a wealth-building mentality, we can live our lives without ever being afraid of being broke again.

Done With Broke: The Woman Physician’s Guide to More Money and Less Hustle.

Dr. Akintade wrote a book to share her wisdom on wealth building and money management, which is accessible to many people and inspired by her own journey. It advises people to identify their risk tolerance and invest based on the seasons of life they are in.

For those who are busy and don't have much time to actively invest, passive investments such as the stock market or partnering with trusted people could be a good option. Diversification is crucial, and not just in stocks and bonds. One should consider conservative and less conservative investments, short-term, medium-term, and long-term.

Summary

With her extensive knowledge and experience, Dr. Latifat is a trusted expert in the field of personal finance for physicians. She has been featured in several media outlets, including KevinMD, and has spoken at conferences and events on the topic.

If you are a woman physician looking to take control of your finances and achieve financial freedom, The Money Coaching School for Badass Women Physicians is the perfect place to start. With Dr. Latifat's guidance, you can achieve your financial goals and live the life you've always dreamed of.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 300

Top Advice for Generating More Money with Less Hustle

- Interview with Dr. Latifat Akintade

John: Well, I love to bring guests on who are doing non-traditional or nonclinical jobs, side jobs, side gigs, people doing interesting things and particularly a physician who has written a book or is getting ready to release a book. And so I want you to welcome Dr. Latifat Akintade today. Welcome to the show.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Thank you so much for having me here. I feel privileged to be here and almost feels like an imposter because I don't think about myself as being cool enough to be considered nonclinical by the way but I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

John: You're welcome. That's going to be fun. You're an ideal guest for us here because we're going to learn a lot from you. And then at the same time, I just love promoting physician's books because writing a book and getting it published is not an easy task. And of course, a lot of my listeners like to learn about side gigs and you talk a lot about making money and some of the traps that physicians fall into.

So, before we get into that though, why don't you tell us about yourself, your story and what you're doing clinically and nonclinically. And then we'll get into some of these more pertinent topics related to your book.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Absolutely. Thanks everybody. I'm Dr. Latifat. I'm a GI Doc. I'm a mama of three little ladies, ages five to 10. They keep me really busy and alert and I'm also the founder and creator of MoneyfitMD, which is a platform that is focused on helping women physicians create true financial and life freedom, to be honest with you.

I've been talking to people more recently because of the book that's coming out and it's really gotten me to reflect even a little bit more on my journey than I may have had in the past. And sort of going to how did this journey even start? How did I get here? How did I even think that financial and the life freedom was something that was important to me? And I think for me it goes back to, I moved to the US about 25 years ago. I moved from Nigeria with my siblings. Our parents stayed back in Nigeria at that point and we were staying with family members that were kind enough to house us and all those sorts of things.

I went to undergrad in LA, I went to UCLA and then med school in San Francisco at UCSF and then New York Mount Sinai and then fellowship at UC Davis in Sacramento. And what that meant was I was dragging myself around student loan and debt and all that stuff. And I literally hit some of the most expensive cities, which means that I was hecka broke at the end of all this stuff.

But at no point did I actually think that money was important. At no point did I really sit down to think about it because I was just busy with my own family responsibilities. When I was in med school, five of us, my siblings will live together, the youngest was in high school. And so, the focus was on making sure she did okay in school and didn't go to school without clothes on and all those other stuff. I had a lot on my plates. So I wasn't really thinking about money per se.

It really wasn't until fellowship that I'm so grateful I had this moment where I just saw my attendings who are amazing, smart, intelligent, loved humans, but I just noticed that I was seeing that people were having the slump on their shoulders where they were tired, not advocating for us completely in a way that we felt like they could advocate for us. And it almost seemed like they had given up and they were part of a system where they're just doing what they were told to do.

And for me, my path to medicine, my journey here wasn't like smooth sailing. There were sacrifices that I made, there were sacrifices my family made and people that I loved. And the worst thing for me was that I was going to be in medicine and not have a choice in how I lived my life.

At that point I knew I was going to be a GI doctor with an emphasis in Crohn's and colitis and the best settings that I wanted to do that in at that point was going to be academia or a large hospital system. So, I knew that I was probably not going to be my own boss. Somebody was going to tell me what to do and God forbid they tell me what to do with my patients and I hated it. I don't agree with it and I think I'm stuck. That was going to lead to me regretting my journey and literally burning out because that's not who I am.

And so, for me that was my motivation that okay, how do I always make sure that I have a plan B? How do I make sure I figure out my money stuff? And so, my journey literally to money started seven years ago where I decided that my fear of living a life of regret, my fear of not having a choice in how I took care of my patients, was the biggest factor for me.

And so, everything else, like my fear of not knowing money, my fear of how hard it was going to be to learn money, all that became silent relative to my fear of living a life that was dependent on anybody else and not being able to live in the way that I wanted to practice my life and be a parent. And so, that was my story of how I decided that money was something I needed to fix for myself at that point.

At no point did I think I was going to teach people because I knew zero. I didn't even know what I owed. I didn't know how much student debt I had and none. I didn't have a 401(k). I knew zero. I didn't even know what a 401(k) was. And so, all this idea about being able to teach people didn't start until years later when I realized that I'd really figured out how to understand money in a way that made sense to me in English in a way that was didn't feel like a conflict to my goal of serving and helping people and hopefully creating a better world.

And that's when I realized that okay, more people like me needed to learn money, more people that were not like me needed to learn money so that we could have more things to fight about because that makes life more interesting. And that is what led me to now doing what I do with MoneyfitMD through the podcast and also through my community for women physicians.

John: Very nice. When you're talking, I'm thinking back. I remember after being in practice for three or four years and I realized, I looked at my partners and we were in a private practice. We have no pension plan. I knew what an IRA was, that was about it. I didn't know about stocks, I didn't know about mutual funds. So, I spent the next two or three years learning everything I could. And just to get to the point where we could just start at 401(k), let's at least do the basics.

I think as physicians we just put all that stuff off. We go into huge debt and then some of us get more interested in others in learning this stuff, which obviously you have spent a lot of time doing and helping others, which once you become a teacher then you really learn more because you know you have to know what you're doing. That's a really interesting story. Okay, I'll stop talking. I need to get to some practical things because I want to pick your brain a little bit and help our listeners here. First tell us about the podcast. What kind of topics do you do and do you have guests, do you do solos?

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Yeah, absolutely. I have a mixture of solo and guests. What I talk about is all things money and mindset, which means anybody that I know, especially women physicians or physicians in general, to be honest, that are doing interesting things, creative things when it comes to building their own money and also the mentality and habits that helps build wealth. And that could be decreasing burnout. That could be health in terms of our physical health, could be mental health. It's wealth in the way that I think about it, which is expensive and goes beyond money.

But the episodes are either myself or I have someone come in and talk about it. And the way that I think about it, it's building wealth from the inside out as opposed to outside in, which is how most people think about it. People think "When I get to the certain number, I will finally have wealth, I will finally be wealthy, I will finally be considered rich." And for me, I believe that's an internal job that we start first and then that trickles into external where that affects how we spend, how we invest, how we spend our time, how we practice our medicine so we can actually live a life of wealth and not waiting for some magical light at the end of the rainbow when we're going to be able to consider ourselves wealthy.

John: Okay. So, let's get into that a little bit because the title of today's episode also includes a part of the title of your book. I guess that's one thing. In a nutshell or how would you create more wealth with less hustle? Because those are two things, more wealth but less hustle. That I would like to know how you would do that.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Absolutely. I'll start with the hustle part because as physicians we go from this, "No one has taught us about money, we focus on everything else, but how to be the CEO of our finances" to now, "Okay, I want to figure out my finances and everybody says I want to make money, I want to diversify." And there is this energy, that hustle energy is very different from working hard and diligently. I'm very pro working hard focused diligently, but what I'm not pro is this hustle energy where it's like eyes darting everywhere trying to figure out like, "Okay, what am I missing?" It's like this FOMO, fear of missing out energy where it's okay, is it crypto today? Is it gold tomorrow? Is it this little thing tomorrow? And what that does is, number one, it's almost like when you think about being in a basement with your phone and it's trying to find reception. That kills its battery faster, right?

That's the same thing that happens when we have that hustle energy because our energy has not been spent productively moving forward. It has been spent focusing on what we don't have, focusing on what the next secret is. What the key is, is there are so many different ways you can build wealth. There is almost nothing you can do that will not lead you to wealth if you continue focusing on it diligently and spending your energy going forward as opposed to that darting energy.

So, that's what I focus on because again, we are busy as physicians, we're taking care of patients, we're taking care of our families. When we start to think about how we can build wealth, it's important for us to be strategic. Focused energy, not looking for short term gains only, but understanding that wealth is something that is built in the long term so that we can stay the course regardless of what's going up and down and be able to create it.

Because whether you're doing e-commerce or you opening your own business or you investing in other people's business or you do in real estate, all of those individual ways can lead to you having a lot of money if you're willing to focus your energy and be able to build behind it. So, that's a hustle part that I think is important for us to talk about.

And then the broke part of it, the way I think about it, broke is a mindset. Let's look at the landscape of medicine today. Let's look at burnout in medicine. Let's look at the fact that physicians are practicing in systems and structures that doesn't always have the focus of the patient and physician wellness in mind. If we look at that and we are smart humans, we've sacrificed so many years to be where we are today. There is no question about our commitment, but the reason why we stay in situations that is not in line with what our patients need, what we need is because of that subconscious and sometimes conscious fear of the fact that "If I leave this, I'm not going to have money. I don't want to be broke."

So you don't have to be broke to decide to be done with broke. And that's why I didn't call the book "Done Been Broke" because this is not for people that are been broke, it's for people that have that subconscious or conscious worry that they will be broke. And I want to make sure that I'm being understanding of where people are coming from because your audience are very genius.

There are some people that grew up having lots of money, there's some people that grew up not having any money. And if you're someone that grew up not having money or you grew up in a family where conversations about money is not being had, it is completely logical and understandable that you may be living your life more in fear of the thought that you maybe broke at some point.

And I think part of it is acknowledging that part of your story and knowing that everything that we are today is the result of everything that we've learned throughout our journey. But now it's time for us to be conscious about, "Okay, what do I now want to create? Do I want to train myself to understand that I can learn how to do money, I can learn whether I like budgeting or not? I can learn how to see my money as seeds that I can plant into trees. I can start to see my money as something that can serve my life's purpose as opposed to something that's just happening by default because I'm not telling my money where to go. I can learn how to invest in a way that is simple and diversified." And simple can be as simple as the index funds that we're just talking about right now, about how I can invest in a way that is diverse, simple and successful. Do I want to work for my money? Do I want my money to work for you?

A lot of these are simple, timeless principles that we were never taught in medicine and has nothing to do with what the climate is or what the sexy thing that people are talking about when it comes to investment. If we can learn the foundations, if we can learn the principles, if we can change our own mentality and get new habits that build wealth in the long haul, we will live our life not being ever afraid of being broke ever, because we know how to do it forever.

John: Okay, that is a lot to think about. I'm just going to paraphrase here. Basically I hear you saying your relationship with money, the fear of going broke, some of it is just mental and saying, "Look, we do have a lot of control. We're physicians, we make decent money." Does it get into the podcast and possibly in the book, does it get into "Should I just become an investor and a startup?" That sounds a little bit extreme as opposed to, "Let's be conservative, let's save so much money, let's put this money in really logical places." Tell me more about the philosophy that you follow.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Absolutely. I don't go into specific details of this is what you should invest in specifically, but what I do tell people in the book is the way that I think about it. And the way that I think about it is deciding what your risk tolerance is. What your risk tolerance when it comes to investment is. Also trying to decide based on the seasons that you're in in life, what makes more sense for you to invest in.

If you're a busy resident or you're a busy fellow or you're a busy attendant with four kids at home and you are a single mama may not be the best time to necessarily start thinking about doing something else actively. It may be time for you to think about passive things like again, set it and forget it in the stock market or now learning how to partner with people that you can trust to the best of a human ability and you can leverage their own time because they may have time to look into investments. How do I invest with them passively?

Even if it's things like syndications. How do I do things? Do I want to be a hard money lender knowing that now this is more risky? It may have a higher return but it's more risky. But the main thing is choosing how to diversify not just in terms of stocks and bonds, but also diversify in terms of conservative, less conservative. Investing for short-term, medium-term, long-term. Those core principles are the ones that I believe that when we learn, then the answer becomes really easy for our own individual specific scenario based on what season we have, what season we're in, our risk tolerance and those other things.

John: Okay, that makes sense. And that's an approach that pretty much everybody can take and not be afraid of making some of those decisions. Well, I have a friend, he's retired now, but I swear, he only put cash in the bank and he never invested in stocks, never invested in real estate. And I'm thinking, "Boy, you're going to have to save half your income for the next 30 years if that's going to be your approach."

I know you're covering a lot of these things in the book, so tell me more about the book. Maybe there's some things in there that you haven't mentioned yet and then we need to learn how to find the book. So, tell us about the book and what led you to write it and how did that go and all these kind of questions.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Absolutely. And I love that you shared about your friend because there's an example that I shared in the book specifically about that. It was a fact that if I'm trying to go from California to New York, there are many ways to do it. I can go by train, I can drive, I can fly. My condition at the end is going to vary based on what route that I take and how quickly I get there is also going to be affected. And in my opinion, flying is a compound interest. It's a gift that we've been given. So I do talk about that in the book.

And honestly, the reason why the book came about was I have this knowledge that I'm so grateful for and I take credit for some of them, but there's some of it that I don't take credit for. I believe it's just a gift to be honest in terms of the people call it sage wisdom. I have a lot of sage wisdom when it comes to money and wealth building in general and life to be honest with you.

And so, when I think about the people that I can't help, physically in my own time limitation as a human being, that is going to be less compared to the number of people that can grab my book, that can get an audiobook and get some of this wisdom at a really cost effective 20 something dollars or so is what the price is going to be. And a lot of us are driving, we're taking the train and all those things and those are the times where we can start to build our own knowledge and start to change the foundation of our knowledge. So, in my opinion, the best way to be able to make this accessible is what you're doing through podcasting and getting information to people easily. And that's why I decided to write the book.

The funny thing is, that I'm going to share this because there are people that are going to be listening to your podcast that may want to do different kinds of businesses or follow different pathways and maybe thinking that I'm not equipped for it, I don't know how to do this. I've never done something like this before.

And that was my story even with my business with MoneyfitMD but even with the book that I'm doing. I thought I was a bad writer. For the longest time I had the story in my head that I don't know how to write, I have too many memories of being in college in the bathroom crying over English papers. And so, to think about writing a book seemed impossible, but what I try to remind people of is we are physicians and we are expert evidence for ourselves of someone that can go from knowing little or nothing about a topic and become a master of that topic. Because we've done that with medicine.

So if we can take that same skillset and reproduce it into anything because the only reason why we may not be able to do it or be good at it is because we haven't focused on it. It's literally just as simple as that. If we focus on it, we will learn it. So, whatever skillset that is for you, whether it's to write a book, whether it's to start a podcast, whether it's to start investing, whether it's to start your own company, the only reason why you may not be good at it yet is because you haven't focused on it. And all you have to do is focus, learn, find people that can mentor you like this podcast you're listening to, find communities that can help you, whether it's money you want alone. Find those people that speak your language and that can help you. And for me, if you take anything away at all from the book and this interview of me and my journey is the fact that there is literally nothing we cannot do. We just need to decide and fuel that journey and it will happen.

John: Excellent. Now, one thing I have failed to do at this point is I haven't told people where to find you. So, let's start with the website. You're at moneyfitmd.com, correct?

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Absolutely. You can find me on the website.

John: And they can find pretty much everything there I'm thinking.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Exactly. You can find the information for the podcast and the book is going to be on Amazon, but you can get it directly from my website as well.

John: Okay, good. So we can go to the website, I got it pulled up right now and there's the book. We could get the book there or we could go to Amazon and I'll have links for that as well. Of course, you can look up MoneyfitMD podcast on any podcast player, correct?

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Absolutely.

John: Okay, that's good. We know where to find that. Now the book is not actually out as of the recording. It will be out when this is released. It'll probably be out for about a week. So, we need to pile on and get as many by five or 10 of the books. You got to get a little bit of action going on Amazon and other places so that our physician friends can do well with their books.

You've told us a lot so far. This has been very interesting. I usually go to last minute advice for our listeners, but I think they're going to be a little more motivated if you could share with us what we talked about before we got on here in terms of what you're doing right now at a high level because I think they'll get motivated if they understand what you're up to right now.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Absolutely.

John: If that's okay.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: No, that's definitely okay. I am currently in the middle or at the beginning of a year-long family sabbatical that I'm taking with my family. We have three kids, my husband and I. And honestly, this was not like a dream list thing. A year ago I would not imagine that I was going to take a sabbatical. I love medicine, I love my patients, I have the best colleagues. I was not burned out at work. I just decided that I wanted to take time away for my family to explore the world. And that's what I did.

And the only reason why I could give myself that gift was because of the investment and the prep that I had done even before I knew that this is going to be something that I wanted to do. And that same thing is learning where my money is going, diversifying my income so that I'm not tied to clinical income only.

And if you are a physician, this is so, so important for all of us because in order for us to be well in anything, we want to have the freedom to be able to do what we want and that's a gift that we can give ourselves. But right now we're encourage out, I wish I could show you my view, but the light is so bright outside, the camera doesn't do a good job, but the goal is just to slow down. In my opinion, we're not taking a vacation, we're just leaving through the world. So we've been in New York/Jersey. We're in Carissa, we're doing Aruba, we're doing Europe, we're doing Nigeria, we're doing Southeast Asia. And I'm just excited about who my kids get to be at the end of this. I'm excited about who I get to be at the end of this. And I'm also excited about what the practice of medicine is going to look like for me when I go back next year.

John: Oh, this is fantastic. And I'll tell you what it reminds me of. I read a book, I don't even remember the title of it. But one of the principles of the book was one of the things we do in life is we create memories. And what is the value of a memory? It's hard to put a dollar value on that, but one part of the value of a memory is how long you have the memory. If you make a memory when you're 83 years old and you die when you're 84, that memory has a very low value. But if you make memories in your 30s and 40s, we have to carve out that time to make some of those memories, whether it's at home or elsewhere. And I think that's what's impressive to me is you are making so many memories over this next year that they have an immeasurable value.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Thank you for sharing that. I hadn't heard about that memory in terms of the length and that is going to motivate me to gather even more memories. And honestly for me, I've always had the intentionality about life because I truly believe that our life is a gift and all of us went through the pandemic and a reminder that life is a gift.

And for me, I lost my dad about two years ago. He died at an age that you would call three years after what you'd consider a traditional retirement age. And it wasn't like that changed me dramatically, but it just became another evidence of the fact that it's not our money or our life, it's not our career or our life. It is both, both of those two things.

I think I need to make a recording on my podcast about this, but I really believe that we're mentally five lifetimes in one, which is where we give ourselves the permission to reset sort of our seasons of life, whatever that is. Maybe the season I'm going to be a hundred percent full-time, maybe the next season I'm going to be part-time, maybe the next season I'm going to do something else. And just give ourselves the freedom of living life fully and like you said, creating even more memories for a longer period of time for as long as we give to be on this planet. So I love that you added that on.

John: Well, you're welcome. And I had never thought of it that way until I read that book. I have done that a little bit. I'm not going to get into that. But I think looking back, those memories are still there and I really enjoy thinking and sharing those with people when I do.

Again, moneyfitmd.com, that's the website. The book is called "Done With Broke: The Woman Physician's Guide to More Money and Less Hustle." That sounds like a good combination there. More money, less hustle. I will still ask you if you have any last words before we let you go today.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: No, I want to say thank you for what you do for bringing guests on here to share. The way that I think about it, there's a lot of noise about medicine and whether it's worth the debt that we get and all the sacrifice. And I honestly am a firm believer that it is. It is if we truly understand the gift of our degree. Our degree is not a terminal degree. Whether you're MD, MD-PhD or whatever you are, in my opinion, our degree is a potent seed that we can grow into any avenues that we want.

My hope is that more physicians will start to see that, so that when and if we decide to stay in clinical medicine, we know that we're there by choice. And that way we are living our life and we get to serve our patients at the highest level. So, thank you for doing what you do and thanks for serving us this way.

John: I love that, what you just said. Again, I thank you for being here on the podcast today, Dr. Latifat. It's been fun and we'll talk again soon, I'm sure.

Dr. Latifat Akintade: Thank you so much for having me here.

John: Bye-bye.

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The post Top Advice for Generating More Money with Less Hustle – 300 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Inspiration from the Author of ‘How to Lose Weight for the Last Time’ – 279

John Jurica — Tue, 20 Dec 2022 14:00:07 +0000

Interview with Dr. Katrina Ubell

In today's episode, John invites Dr. Katrina Ubell back to discuss her business and new book How to Lose Weight for the Last Time: Brain-Based Solutions for Permanent Weight Loss.

She began her journey from practicing pediatrician to master-certified life coach while taking a break from practice. She found that she quickly connected with medical professionals struggling to lose weight.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Dr. Katrina Ubell's Journey

Dr. Ubell's battle with her own weight started in medical school, where physicians typically learn to “eat when you can, and sleep when you can.” Like many physicians struggling to maintain a healthy weight, she found that her clients were emotional eaters who consume food even when not hungry.

The approach she uses addresses feelings, thoughts, and beliefs differently, as often the root causes of our poor eating patterns.

Beginning with one-on-one coaching, Katrina developed her flagship program “Weight Loss for Doctors Only,” which has been very successful in helping members to achieve a harmonious relationship with food and the permanent weight loss they seek.

How to Lose Weight

Dr. Ubell shares the strategies for weight loss from her flagship program in her recently released book “How to Lose Weight for the Last Time.” The key, she says, is not to be found in unrealistic diets, unsustainable supplements, or demanding workout regimens, but to follow the brain-based strategy outlined in her book.

Dr. Katrina Ubell's Advice

Once I understood how to asses and act upon my true physiological hunger, the weight started to come off…

Summary

You can find Dr. Ubell's book, and the audiobook version that she recorded, on her website at katrinaubellmd.com, and at major bookstores. After buying it, you can enter the order number on her website to gain access to a free 90-minute workshop called “Ensure Your Weight Loss Success.”

You can also find information about her podcast “Weight Loss for Busy Physicians,” and several free downloadable resources on her website.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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The post Inspiration from the Author of ‘How to Lose Weight for the Last Time’ – 279 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

How to Go from Surviving to Thriving in a Remote Healthcare Job – 278

John Jurica — Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:30:44 +0000

Interview with Dr. Frieda Wiley

In today's episode, Dr. Frieda Wiley shares her secrets for thriving in a remote healthcare job.

Frieda is a pharmacist who worked remotely for several years and is the author of Telecommuting Psychosis: From Surviving to Thriving While Working in Your Pajama Pants.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Telecommuting Psychosis?

Telecommuting Psychosis is not a recognized clinical condition. However, Dr. Wiley used it in order to draw attention to the potentially severe consequences that can occur from the isolation and lack of direct human contact that results from working remotely.

Frieda wrote the book to shed light on this issue, and to share techniques for preventing and reversing the adverse effects. Simple self-care measures that are described in the book can greatly help to eliminate these effects.

Effects of Working Remotely

The drawbacks of working remotely in healthcare vary depending on your field and industry. But some of the more common psychological effects include:

depression,
feelings of isolation,
trouble unplugging from the online world,
lack of external stimulation, and
feeling invisible

There are direct medical effects resulting from long hours spent working remotely, such as elevated lipid levels, heart disease, low vitamin D levels, and weight gain. And there is the frequently encountered reduction in career advancement due to less direct interaction with supervisors and others in the workplace hierarchy.

Dr. Frieda Wiley's Advice

Just know that you have to be your own advocate for your work environment and for your health and that there's no shame in seeking help.

Thriving in a Remote Healthcare Job

Dr. Wiley has several suggestions for thriving in a remote job. To maintain mental health be sure to manage your social health, use an accountability partner, create a social calendar to enhance human interactions, develop a daily mindfulness practice, and “become a tourist in your own town.”

To improve your physical health you should first check the ergonomics of your remote working environment, schedule physical activity and formal exercise, supplement Vitamin D if needed, and take breaks every 20 minutes to address eye strain and dryness.

Properly integrate childcare into your workday, if necessary. Keep workspace separate from other areas. And set boundaries with friends and people who live with you.

Summary

Dr. Wiley addresses these topics and others in much more detail in her book. Go to her website to order it. If you have any questions regarding any of these subjects or would need coaching on how to identify and deal with the drawbacks of working remotely, you may use the contact form on her website, or send her an email at frieda@friedawiley.com.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 278

How to Go from Surviving to Thriving in a Remote Healthcare Job

- Interview with Dr. Frieda Wiley

John: When I was thinking about bringing on today's guest, I was really positive about it for a number of reasons. When I was chief medical officer at the hospital I worked at for 14 years, one of the people I worked most closely with was a pharmacist, a PharmD like our guest today who ran the pharmacy department at the hospital, and the whole system for that matter.

I'm also very fond of writers, medical writers in particular. And so, I'm really pleased to be able to have today's guest join us and talk a lot about these different things and about a book that she just recently wrote and published. So, with that, I'll say thanks for joining us today, Dr. Frieda Wiley.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Thank you for having me.

John: All right. Most of my guests are usually physicians, although anyone dealing with nonclinical careers comes on the podcast that we can get on here to learn something from. Obviously, Frieda is a PharmD not an MD, but like I say, I have a very strong affinity for pharmacists because I worked with so many in the past.

But the thing is, I was not aware of a couple of things. Of course, I knew that there were non-physicians that do medical writing. There are actually people that aren't even clinicians that do medical writing. So, I'm interested to hear about that from Frieda today.

And the other is this whole concept of telecommuting and telemedicine, telehealth. I guess I kind of knew in the back of my mind if pharmacists did that, but I really had no idea the scope and the amount that they did. I'm looking forward to learn about that and about some of the downsides of telecommuting. I guess you would put telehealth in that category. A lot to talk about today. Tell us a little bit about your background, your education, Frieda, and then your early clinical work.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Sure. As you mentioned, I am a pharmacist by terminal training. I actually had a previous career as a chemist in the aerospace industry. It's a brief career as a break between degrees. So, my undergraduate degrees are in biochemistry and Spanish.

John: Interesting.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah, I mixed it all in there. And when I went to pharmacy school, I kind of focused more on industry. That was my goal to actually work in the pharmaceutical industry. And that was really my introduction into medical writing. I went into standard or more traditional pharmacy practice I should say when I started.

So, I started as a community pharmacist originally as a floating pharmacist where I was traveling to different pharmacies and leaving other pharmacists who were on vacation or gotten sick. I was working for a small grocery store chain that was based predominantly in East Texas, rural areas. And about three months into that I was approached by management to work in medication therapy management, which ultimately became my introduction into remote work because I became a hybrid worker. Because I was a floating pharmacist who already had experience with different stores in different regions, different pharmacies. It made sense to have me travel to these different pharmacies and meet with patients 101 to review their medications. And because there wasn't a central office and I had a lot of administrative work to take care of phone calls, paperwork and things of that nature, then I worked from home at a regional office one to two days a week.

John: Okay. Yeah. So, you got a little taste of that at that point.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Right. And then I stayed in that role for about another year and then transitioned into working for a managed care firm where I did the exact same thing but in a completely remote setting. I was hired originally as a Spanish speaking pharmacist, serving the greater New York City population. And originally, I was under the impression I was going to have to move to Hoboken, New Jersey or somewhere in the New York City vicinity for that job and obviously become licensed in that area.

Telemedicine laws, as I'm sure you're aware, can be different, a little bit more flexible when it comes to licensure per state. And so, when the company found out that I had some remote experience already under my belt, they pitched me the idea of being fully remote because they wanted to get a head start and they knew it would take me a while to relocate.

John: Okay. I was just to say that can sound quite attractive. And again, I have to remember that there's probably different roles in let's say pharmacy and pharmacy services versus let's say a physician. But the physicians I talk to, they're like, "Oh yeah, the thing I love about telemedicine is I have more control. I can do it when I want to do it. And I don't have to really worry about getting dressed up and putting on a tie or whatever." But it sounds attractive, I would think to you as well. But I think you then later learned there were some downsides to it.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. There are downsides to it. And I think it depends on the industry you're in and the type of work that you do. There are many other areas in which there are pharmacists who are involved in patient care working remotely and using telemedicine. But in my case, I wasn't able to work what I wanted to. In my first pharmacy job, I set my own schedule because I'm scheduling appointments with patients and different things.

Well, in this case, they had the administrative part already taken care of and my entire work day was scheduled from 08:00 to 05:00. It became frustrating when it came to networking and what if I needed to go to the doctor. I would have to take vacation leave in order to do that because I didn't have the flexibility in my schedule that other telecommunicators sometimes enjoy.

John: Yeah. Actually, that reminds me of another example. And I do think there are some physicians who are locked into those kinds of schedules as well and other clinicians. For example, one of my children is a social worker and she ended up wanting to work remotely because she was moving at several different times. And she's starting to do, basically, it was utilization and case management type job remotely.

But you're right, they supplied the computer, she couldn't leave the house when she was working. She had set hours. So actually, it made her life no more flexible or easy to adjust to things than it was when she was driving into work. It's not always what you think. And some of those are definitely locked into a normal 09:00 to 05:00 routine, which can be more than 09:00 to 05:00. In fact, in a lot of these cases, they have a certain number of cases they have to do. And if they don't get it done in their eight hours, they might end up working nine or 10 hours. I don't know if that applied to you or not.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: In some cases, it did because, especially towards the end of the year with that particular company, they had numbers to meet and for some reason they realized that first year that we were way behind on our numbers in September. So, then our working hours were extended and, in some cases, we had to work weekends. So that quality of life that originally attracted me to that position, it went away very quickly.

John: Okay. Now I would like to put a pause on talking about this particular part of your life and how it led to writing the book only because I wanted to get a glimpse into this because you did mention, of course, that you were working at the pharma companies and you've done medical writing. And I'll just tell the listeners and I'm going to bring up your website right now, friedawiley.com. It is a place where you can purchase the book that we're going to be talking about.

But it's a good example for people that are interested in medical writing or maybe they're just getting into medical writing, it's an excellent website. It kind of puts everything out in different pages as an overview of what you do. You've got testimonials, I believe. You've got examples of the kind of writing you do. You've got a tab that says portfolio, for example. So, tell us how you got into medical writing, just a glimpse of some of the writing you've done and who you've done writing for.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. As I kind of alluded to earlier, when I was in pharmacy school, I had some rotations in the pharmaceutical industry, and specifically back when they still had a pharmaceutical division before they divested. And even though my internships were mainly in regulatory affairs, there were times where I supported the medical writing team, especially during that second summer, which introduced me to the concept. I'd never heard of it at that point.

And so, when I began practicing, I started freelancing while I was practicing. And it started out with, I remember sitting in a doctor's office one time and I saw this magazine. And at the time it really looked more like a slightly more glorified patient handout. I remember reading the content thinking I could do this. I had already written some pamphlets and things when I was on rotation with Indian Health Services. And I saw that as kind of a translation of that.

And so, I actually reached out to the company and I told them who I was and what I wanted to do. Not really the best approach. I really didn't understand the concept of pitching and things like that, but I didn't really hear anything else from them until a year later. And the editor reached out to me and said, "I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you, but we'd be interested in having you write for us."

And then also with doing the medication therapy management, because I was responsible for creating documents that went to the patient back then, this was before the government had set standards for how the documentation would look and different things like that. So, I had to come up with my own templates. I had to come up with a core messaging and phrasing that I might want to use, and then also customize the information that was included, going to each patient as well as to the prescriber.

That skillset helps me become bilingual, not just Spanish English, but in terms of being able to communicate in plain and scientific language. And I leveraged that as I pursued other writing opportunities.

John: Another example of each one of us has certain skills that we accumulate over time, and your set of skills might be different from mine, but they can all be leveraged in a different way for a particular job or series of jobs. It's just a good example of someone who's been a freelance writer, that's made a good living and enjoyed it and leveraged their clinical background and so forth. That was like I said, one of the reasons I wanted to have you come on and talk about that a little bit. What kind of writing have you done besides what you just described? Just some samples of some of the kind of writing that you've participated in.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Right, sure. I have written slide decks. I've written needs assessments, advisory board summaries, executive summaries that they require. I have written scripts not only for presentations, but also for e-learning, webinars, different things like that. I have also written patient handouts as well as marketing information that would go to physicians as well as general audiences.

John: Yeah, I think it's easy to say, okay, wait, I can only write, let's say maybe CME manuscripts and maybe something for the public. But there's so many different variations, and I've heard this before, needs assessment, learning needs, slide decks. And you're doing something for the advisory board, is that what you said?

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yes.

John: Those things are beautiful, awesome presentations. You've got to really have some skills to do that.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Thank you.

John: Because I've been on the receiving end of some of their presentations and they're almost overwhelming sometimes and the way they're created. There's a lot of information and it's very professional. It kind of ties into what you did later and what we're talking about today is writing your book. Obviously, you're a writer, you know how to write, and so you leveraged that to write something that wasn't in that category of medical writing, per se.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yes. I loved writing as a child, and that was sort of a childhood dream. And it's one of those things where as you get older and you find out the whole thing that you can do anything is kind of a myth. I had "writing a book" as one of my goals, especially once I started medical writing. It rehashed that dream. And when I became a fully remote employee, I noticed that I just didn't feel as awesome as I did when I went to the office every day. Every job, every setting has its stressors, but I started to notice that I wasn't going out as much. I wasn't socializing as much. I was depressed. I became depressed. I felt isolated even more so because initially I was the only remote worker on my team, and everybody else was in New Jersey and New York. That didn't help either.

And this was back before most companies had the infrastructure to support different types of engagement. So, all of our meetings, I would dial in via phone, a lot of times the call quality would be bad. And because my voice doesn't carry very well and everybody starts talking, I would get drowned out. I would just kind of sit there twiddling my thumbs until there was a break.

John: Yeah.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. That's what prompted me. I started journaling initially because I reached out to people and I was telling people, family, members and trusted friends "Look, something's not right. I don't feel myself." And people, we're dismissive because the thought is "You have the dream job when you work from home."

John: Yeah. Well, let me mention the name of the book now before I forget to do that. "Telecommuting Psychosis: From Surviving to Thriving While Working in Your Pajama Pants." You can get that book if it's intriguing, which it sounds to me. I've looked at it and at friedawiley.com/book. So, if you go to her website, you want to look at all the other information if you want to be a medical writer, but then she also has a page with the book on it where you can order it or you can go directly to Amazon. But that sounds pretty extreme "Telecommuting Psychosis." That's a little more than feeling something wasn't just right. So, how did we get to that point?

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Right. Yes, as an obvious disclaimer that it's not an official clinical term, it doesn't show up in the DSM-5 for whatever. But the reason why I chose that title was to call some attention to the situation. And kind of extrapolating from the concept of postpartum psychosis versus depression.

No, I didn't have thoughts of harming myself or harming someone else, but I did reach a point of just extreme mania where I was frustrated. And a lot of that had to do with the fact that nobody seemed to understand or empathize with what I was going through. And I later came to realize that the telecommuting concept, the mental fallout that occurs with it, is something that oftentimes people sweep under the rug.

At the time when I became an overnight telecommuter, unexpectedly, like many people during the pandemic, I didn't have the luxury of having this open forum where people spoke out about it and supported each other. There were very few studies available at the time that talked about it. The pandemic changed that. So, that was also to finish the book because suddenly I had the data to back up everything that I had been saying.

John: Then you applied the skills as a researcher that you did for your medical writing obviously for this book. I'm trying to think what's the easiest way to go through this in not great detail, but what are some of the common effects, adverse effects, and then later we can talk about ways to counteract them or prevent them. And I know you had the eight or nine myths that you talk about, which maybe also relates to that. So, go ahead and just tell us more about this topic and the potential adverse effects of it.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: It's many of the things that I mentioned earlier. The isolation, the depression. And obviously with depression and having a sedentary job and all of that, then you can also expect to see an increase in poor outcomes, poor biomarkers and different things like that. So, LDL, heart disease and things that fall out from that. The lack of vitamin D because you're not getting outside as much or you're not getting outside during the peak hours in which your body would absorb natural vitamin D that has been linked to heart disease, cancer, mental illnesses. We know that people who live in Scandinavian parts of this world are actually more likely to have heart disease and schizophrenia. And there have been studies to show that there's an association between those conditions and the lack of vitamin D. So, those are just a few of many examples.

John: Since you found the research that people are starting to recognize this, are you and others recommending certain ways to counteract these things? Just take it from there.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. A lot of it, unfortunately, has to do with self-management. Acknowledging that you have a problem is the first step, or saying that something's not right. Because mental health still carries a stigma. The pandemic helped to erase some of that, but we have to create a safe space for people to say that they're not okay and to seek help.

So, my goal with the book was to take the guesswork out. Start paying attention. We need to be more self-aware. Are you taking breaks? You need to be taking breaks every 20 minutes or so anyway for your eye health. That's one part of it. And making sure that you're moving, making sure that you are sticking to a plan, make up a plan for yourself where you make sure that you are chunking your time, you're managing your time wisely. And part of that includes the self-care element. Self-care not only in terms of physical health, but mental, because it all works together.

John: It's easy to say of course, but I know for a fact that I should exercise three times a week minimum, probably every day. But it's like you almost have to pick your phone up and put it in there as a scheduled event. And if you can do that, great. And you're talking about the same thing. And if you're at a job that doesn't allow that or doesn't enable you to do that, then you should seriously think about not doing that job and finding an employer that has a little more flexibility and allows you the freedom or a little bit of those breaks. On a 09:00 to 05:00 job, you should have 30 to 60 minutes for lunch, for example.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. And you raise a point about putting it in your phone or scheduling it. And I was serious when I said that. Sometimes it's an accountability thing. Having an accountability partner that can be very helpful. One of the things that I did pre pandemic is I used to drop in on teleworking groups. For example, I used to go to one in particular that would meet up in different places in Austin when I was in the Washington DC metropolitan area. It was during the pandemic. And so, the co-working groups had all gone remote if they were still active, but we still had times where we would work together. And sometimes that would include scheduling little mini breaks where we would do meditation exercises or get a move around scheduling into the breaks, all system socializing, because still some type of human interaction is very important. We're not meant to be isolated from each other.

John: Yeah, absolutely. Let me do this. There's so much in the book that you address in terms of recognizing and then trying to take these steps to prevent it. Again, let's talk directly to the listeners here. You're doing some kind of at home remote work similar to what Frieda has described. Because we tend to ignore how we're feeling, we tend to ignore what's happening to us. Again, maybe two or three of the symptoms or two or three physical findings that you think people better get to stop and think about this and get the book and figure out how to overcome it.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. One side would be noticing that you're not moving around as much anymore and may start to have weight gain. Maybe your back starts to hurt. That's another thing. You have to be your own ergonomics adjuster. You have to figure all of that out. And so, being mindful of that. And you may also notice that if you're not careful, seriously, a few days may go by without leaving the house. Especially if let's say the kids take the bus home or they're driving, why do you need to leave the house? You can have your groceries delivered.

So, making sure that you're keeping track of that. Have I left the house today? Have I socialized outside of my work socializing and thinking about, "Okay, well before the pandemic or before I went remote, what did my social life look like?" Because it's those little interactions sometimes that really add up. And that's something that I really started to miss. And it applies to people, regardless of whether you're introverted or extroverted. I am very introverted. And so, that's another reason why it really threw me off because I was used to doing my own thing and being okay with it.

John: Yeah. I can imagine, I can think of an example like going to the coffee shop. If I'm at home for a week, I would miss that. I don't go every day, but I know when I do go and I am an introvert, I just like to fool around in a sense verbally with the people behind the counter, whatever's going on, mention something. Not political, not controversial. Just to have that interaction with another human being. It's just kind of fun.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. The casual banter. And I even talked about that in the book because I missed that as well. So, then you have to think about, "Okay, yes, this is my new office now, maybe it's not going to be the same experience as what it was when I was driving every day, but how can I recreate some of that or capture some of those elements?"

John: It does remind me a lot about the whole issue of burnout and medical care and healthcare in general. And we can get into a very deep hole, deep in the burnout syndrome before we even realize that we are. And so, this sounds like it's the same thing.

One of the things that I tell my listeners and coaches, mentees and so forth, is that it does make a difference where you work. And some places are awesome to work for and some are terrible because they ignore things like this. Are there any ways to figure out as you're looking? Because a remote job still sounds good. I can be home, maybe I have to be home when my kids get home and or I have an elderly parent I'm helping to take care of. I need to be nearby. Okay, fine. But what can I look for in an employer or let's say if you're a freelancer, it's a little different, but you're still a 1099 employee in a sense. What do I look for?

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. I actually included a little questionnaire at the back of the book to help readers. So, a lot of it starts with the interview process. You need to be very specific and focused about the questions that you ask, making sure you have a really good understanding of that working environment. So, asking what the level of engagement looks like. How do I interact with other employees?

And this may sound obvious now, but because of my frame of reference, it really wasn't. Find out if you are going to be on a team where there are other remote workers. That's important just because of employee conflict, jealousy, animosity, backlash, things like that. Finding out what sorts of infrastructure they have in place that will support remote workers.

And also, there are different things you can talk about to try to get a full understanding of your work. Sometimes the hiring manager will give clues that they maybe are a micromanager or don't really respect work-life balance. So, what I have found is that sometimes the core messaging and the core values that may show up on a company's website may not necessarily align with the role that you're in. It really depends on who your direct line of management is and how much they are working to support that culture. And then of course, if you're able to talk to people within the company offline, and also reviews. So, the nice thing now is if there are so many company reviews that you can kind of do some research and that will also help guide some of those questions that you want to ask.

John: Yeah, that makes sense. And it's related to looking for any job really, to try and get some honest feedback from maybe people that weren't set up to interview you or for you to meet, but that are just there. Like in a hospital you go talk to just some of the nurses or some of the staff or the maintenance man or whatever. Just because you need some hopefully unbiased feedback before you make a final decision.

All right. Tell us again where the website is and the name of the book and all that, because we don't want to forget about that before we let you go.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. The website is friedawiley.com and the book is called "Telecommuting Psychosis: From Surviving to Thriving While Working in Your Pajama Pants."

John: Okay. And they can get it by going directly to Amazon or going to your website.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Both. Go to my website if you can't remember the title and it will take you straight to the Amazon page.

John: Okay, great. And of course, I'll put links in my show notes. I have a last question. If someone who has maybe not done telehealth or telemedicine or telecommuting or remote job, any last bits of advice for them before they take the plunge?

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Yeah. Don't be afraid of it just because I wrote a book about losing my mind. Just know that you have to be your own advocate for your work environment and for your health and that there's no shame in seeking help.

John: Excellent. Thanks. Thanks for that. That's very useful. And I will also remind you, my listeners here in the nonclinical nation, to go to the website if you're a medical writer or a fledgling medical writer because you'll get a lot of good ideas from what Frieda has done. And yeah, pick up the book while you're there.

All right. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate this Frieda, and hopefully we can keep in touch. Do you have any plans to write a new book anytime in the near future?

Dr. Frieda Wiley: I actually have some children's books in the works, so I'm excited about those.

John: Just let me know. I have no problem sending out a little announcement in the podcast or in my emails if you get those published. So, keep us informed.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Thank you. And thank you for this opportunity.

John: You're welcome. All right. Bye-bye.

Dr. Frieda Wiley: Bye-bye.

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How to Unlock Your Creative Potential as a Physician – 263

John Jurica — Tue, 30 Aug 2022 12:00:57 +0000

Interview with Robin Landa

In today's podcast, Robin Landa describes how to unlock your creative potential and find great ideas worth pursuing.

Berrett-Koehler will release Robin's new book in November. It's called “The New Art of Ideas: Unlock Your Creative Potential”. In it, Robin presents a novel technique for coming up with great ideas that matter.

She has written 25 nonfiction books that prestigious publishers including Simon & Schuster have distributed. And she's a distinguished professor at Kean University's Michael Graves College.

The National Society of Arts and Letters, the National League of Pen Women, and other organizations have given Robin accolades and awards for her design, writing, art, and teaching. She has received the Teacher of the Year Award, the New Jersey Author's Award, and the Kean Presidential Excellence Awards. According to the Carnegie Foundation, Robin is “one of the great instructors of our time” and has trained both industry experts and college students in the art of idea generation.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

The book will be launched in November and it is currently available for pre-order on Robin's website, Amazon, and other booksellers. Additionally, it can be found online at Berrett-Koehler and Penguin Random House.

Unleash Creative Potential with the 3 G's: Goal, Gap, and Gain

Since Alex Osborn introduced brainstorming in 1953, Robin's method is the first fresh approach to enhancing one's creative potential to develop new ideas. Her method for problem-solving and foreseeing issues involves the “Three Gs.”

Many concepts are fanciful and only concerned with profit or novelty. The “Three G's” in her method ensure that the concept is valuable and not frivolous. The first “G” is Goal.

People wrongly believe that once you develop a good idea that you're finished. But that is only the beginning, according to Robin. That is the result you seek. The Gap is then extremely important in determining how an idea may actually meet a need.

The final “G” stands for Gain, which denotes that there must be a benefit to society, the environment, and/or living things.

Robin Landa's Encouragement

I think anybody can come up with a worthwhile idea. It's not the person, it's the system you're using. So that if the process you're using isn't helping you, try the three G's, try goal, gap and gain. It's proven to work…

Summary

Being receptive and observant is what Robin dubbed “golden habits to form,” and they are necessary to unleash creative potential. Whether in design or developing a new business, the “Three G's” can be effective.

The goal of the book, “The New Art of Ideas: Unlock Your Creative Potential” is to enable readers to apply Robin's framework.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Links for Today's Episode:

Robin Landa's Website
Robin Landa's New Book: The New Art of Ideas: Unlock Your Creative Potential [Amazon Affiliate link]
How to Validate Your Business Idea
How to Select the Best Online Business Niche – 110
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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 263

How to Unlock Your Creative Potential as a Physician

- Interview with Robin Landa

John: I'm really looking forward to have today's guest with us, because number one, I like book authors, and I think it's really important for you listeners to be able to come up with creative ideas, particularly creative ideas that are worth pursuing. That's the second half of that equation. Our guest today definitely can tell us all about that. So hello, Robin Landa.

Robin Landa: Hi, Dr. Jurica. I'm honored to be here with you. Thank you for having me as a guest.

John: I'm really happy to talk to you today. You have a book coming out soon, which is really the main core of what we're going to talk about, but I will mention, as I did in the intro that you're a professor and you talk and teach about branding and just being creative, how to come up with ideas, design, other things in marketing. So, I think there's a lot we can learn from you. So, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background in addition to that, and then we'll get started with my grilling.

Robin Landa: Thank you so much. I'm a Distinguished Professor at Kean University in the Michael Graves College. I'm a designer and I started out as an artist and then segued into being a designer and then switched over to being an author. And that's pretty much what I do when I'm not teaching. I'm the author of 25 published non-fiction books by esteemed publishers like Berrett-Koehler and Simon & Schuster. And I'm very, very interested in diversity equity inclusion in making sure my students do well in the industries and making sure that they are at the top of their game when they leave our program. And that's where my intense interest in creative thinking comes in.

John: Well, the name of the book, since we've mentioned it already is "The New Art of Ideas: Unlock Your Creative Potential." And we're going to get into that. But the thing that kind of struck me when I was looking at that, and this is a quote, "How to get great ideas worth pursuing?" So how to get the ideas and then kind of show or at least have an assumption or a belief that they're worth pursuing. So, how do you identify an idea that's worth pursuing? Is there a secret to that? I mean, once you've come up with the idea.

Robin Landa: Yes. I'll talk to you about coming up with the idea as well. But to answer your question directly, for me, there has to be more than just making a profit from an idea. There has to be what people refer to as the triple bottom line: profit, people and the planet. And so, I only see ideas that are worthwhile as those that have some benefit for individual society, the environment creatures, our planet.

John: Okay. Yeah. And I think maybe we'll get into that as we get into the Three G's. So, why don't you just take us through a description of the Three G's and maybe intertwine even the ideas about why you decided to write a book about this topic as you go along.

Robin Landa: The Three G's that you're mentioning are my process. And my new process is the first new creative process since brainstorming was introduced by Osborne in 1953. And what's really, I think, very good about my process is that it's actionable. And there are three components, as you said, the Three G's. There's a goal, the gap and a game.

And many people mistakenly think that a goal is your idea, but that's just the beginning. That's what you want to achieve. And then the gap is really crucial. And I think your audience will really understand this in a way that many other audiences that I've spoken to don't because they are physicians and scientists, and they really understand that there are missing pieces in research. There are questions that haven't been answered. There are neglected diseases. There are endemic problems that we haven't addressed.

So, thinking about a gap, whether it's a product or service, a mediated mechanism for delivering vaccines. We all know that wonderful breakthrough saved so many people by Dr. Katie Kariko and Dr. Weisman. That was a gap, right? We weren't using messenger RNA to deliver as a mediated mechanism. And so, they came up with that, against the star chamber, I should mention. The gap is crucial in really identifying how an idea can fulfill a need.

And then the third G is the gain. And I can tell you how I came to that, which is an interesting story. But for me, the game means that there has to be a benefit for, as I said earlier, individual society, the planet, the environment creatures. And so, those three G's really ensure that your idea is worthwhile and not frivolous. Because many ideas are frivolous and they're just about profit or novelty and I'm not interested in it.

John: Okay. Well, let's see. Maybe we should go back through each one and get a little deeper if we can. I remember people that I've interviewed, for example, I had a urologist I interviewed. She was working clinically, but she had a side gig. And the thing that she came up with is that her patients, her younger women that had, let's say urinary problems didn't have stylish undergarments they could wear. So, she actually created a line. That was just such an aha moment for her. It just drove her. She had never intended to even go into business on the side. She just had, which she was solving a problem. Is there a way to stimulate those kinds of ideas? I don't know, that I guess would fall into the gap perhaps, but maybe just in your model, maybe talk to me how things like that might fit in and if someone's thinking about trying to solve a problem.

Robin Landa: That's an excellent example, by the way. I should have put that in my book. I wish I had spoken to you sooner. That's what I would call a pain point.

John: Okay.

Robin Landa: If you notice a pain point, whether something like that, or he noticed that his wife had arthritis, was having difficulty using normal utensils and tools to open jars. And he realized that that's a pain point that he wanted to solve with his company. So, pain points are definitely an entry into a gap, into as you said, solving a problem.

And so, you can use my method, my process to solve a problem. And you can also use it to anticipate problems, to think ahead and wonder and notice, ask questions. Like, is there a more sustainable method? Is there a way to address a crisis before it's urgent? Well, I guess a crisis is urgent, but how do we address it when there's a hurricane, is there a way we can figure out how to create temporary shelters before it actually hits? So rather than in the moment where we're thinking about it ahead of time.

Pain points, as you mentioned, are a fantastic way. Kat Nouri was in the kitchen making lunch for her three children, and she was putting the sandwiches in disposable plastic bags, and she thought, "Boy, this is really wasteful. This creates toxic waste. Is there a way to create something that is reusable baggage? And she invented Stasher which SC Johnson bought from her. So, there is a moment where you think about what you're doing and how do you solve this problem.

John: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. I guess maybe it's not before the second step, it's just the way it happens to be modeled, but the goal is more of an overarching, like kind of are you working in this field? Is it a medical issue? How would you describe the goal?

Robin Landa: Well, the goal can be anything. The goal can be very general. For example, an attorney, a friend of mine, and this is kind of like your audience, decided that law wasn't for her anymore. She went into it as a very pragmatic decision in life. And so, she took a very early retirement and she wanted to explore creative venues because she's a very creative person.

Her goal was very general, to explore a different creative track. She became a docent at a museum and then became the head of the docents. She took dance classes. She expressed herself by wearing very fashionable clothing. And somebody on the street in New York City stopped her and said, "May I take your photograph?" Well, now she's a fashion influencer at the age of 50 plus. She had this very general goal of being more creative, leaving her attorney job and doing that.

So, the goal can be general or it can be very specific. I want to create a brand of underwear that is more aesthetically pleasing. You can come to that goal in a specific way or in a very general way or through a passion. Many people come to a goal through something that they really love to do.

John: Okay. And then in terms of the gain, perhaps you have two or three ideas, but then you kind of vet those ideas in terms of how many people or how the environment or how something else is going to benefit from that particular idea.

Robin Landa: Exactly. It's a way of vetting it. And to me, that is really important. I came to that in a couple of ways. One main way is just understanding people, that people want something. We all want something. But by teaching advertising, we always think about the audience and what's in it for the audience. So, when you're watching a commercial, "What's in it for me?" That's the question. And so, we always tailor our advertising solutions to creating either a practical benefit, meaning something very functional, like this hair color will cover your gray hair or something emotional like you'll feel younger and feel better because of this hair color.

So, we're always thinking about benefits. When I thought, well, it's human nature to want something, but it's also in my opinion to want to make sure that the planet is okay, that we're thinking about sustainability, that we're thinking about other people, that we're thinking about underserved populations, neglected diseases, questions that haven't been asked or explored, the new James Webb telescope out there, thinking about things that we haven't answered yet. So, there's so many paths to take.

John: All right. I think that's a good model. It's a good way to look at things, step back and really look at it from all those different perspectives. Is there any secret to unlocking creative potential? Because that has to be part of this process. I know that's what people complain about. Like "I just don't have any good ideas" or "I don't know how to come up with an idea." How does one unlock that?

Robin Landa: Yes. I teach this. There are really many behavioral things that you can do. And what I call golden habits to form. One is to be observant and to really notice things. So, if you listen to really good comedians, observational comedians, they notice things that other people might miss and they turn them into humor. Velcro came because he was walking in the woods with his dog and noticed that burs were sticking to his clothing, right? So, we notice things. Or the famous story of penicillin. Being observant is crucial to being creative. And children are very observant and we kind of lose that as adults. And one characteristic that I've noticed in myself is that I notice everything. And it can be very fruitful. It can create a fertile mindset.

The other habits to forum are being receptive. And that's kind of being open to possibilities, open to potential, open to other people's points of view. And I'm not saying to listen to the ramblings of ignorant people, but if you present an idea to me and let's say it's MRNA and I'm like, "Well, no, we don't use that to deliver vaccines."

I should listen and I don't necessarily have to move forward on it, but I should be open to your educated point of view, because it really expands one's thinking. And being a mindful listener. The characteristic of great leaders is that they not only tell stories, but they are good story listeners. They really listen and listen very carefully. And I've developed that as a professor. I have to listen very carefully to my students to understand and to empathize. And then being resilient, of course, you know as a scientist that you don't go into an experiment knowing the outcome. You go in and things fail because we don't know the outcome. We're in there to figure it out, an experiment. So, you have to be resilient. And then there are other things that I can go on about, if you'd like.

John: Well, let me just observe that especially when you're talking about being receptive. It's so common when you're just having a conversation or talking about an idea that the first thing the person's thinking about is how to respond and how to argue with your thoughts. But you're right. It takes either a lot of practice or really thinking like, "Okay, I'm not going to respond. I'm going to keep my mouth shut. I'm going to listen to this idea and really try and get to it and maybe ask more questions."

I'm reminded of, I was leading a mastermind group and the core thing about that is don't jump in with solutions, just ask more questions and then you can get to the core of what the real issue is. And then there is probably some logic to it. And particularly when you're trying to be creative. So, I really like that reminder. How about one more?

Robin Landa: One more. Well, let me just say that you're a terrific listener and that's one of the reasons your podcast is so successful. So, you've put that into practice. And I think what you do is develop dialogue rather than debate. And that's a secret. That's a golden habit. I'll give you one more.

John: Okay.

Robin Landa: There are two questions you can always ask that really pose possibilities and they are questions that a lot of science fiction writers pose. And that is "What if?" What if we had a digital twin of you who would live on and carry all your memories and all your knowledge? What if we could be a fly on the wall and nobody would notice us? All these possibilities that we see and wonderful ideas that you see in science fiction films. "What if" is a wonderful, wonderful question to really get the creative juices going.And then the other one is "If only." And it's not about regrets, but again, it's about possibilities. If only I could fly, if only I had aesthetically pleasing underwear, if I had a urinary problem, right?

John: Right.

Robin Landa: Those two questions really let you get out of your own realm of experience and into alternate possibilities.

John: Yeah. I'm assuming that there are conditions that exist that make it easier to go through this process and be creative. And I think one of the things I was going to ask you about was diversity and inclusion and how that actually enhances this process.

Robin Landa: Yes. I think it's crucial to get multiple perspectives and you really need to have a diverse and inclusive group of people to do that. And multiple perspectives really broaden the thinking. And diversity equity inclusion also goes against groupthink, right? We want to avoid groupthink where it's a kind of forced thinking about people with the same values and the same background and the same attitude. So, I think that really great ideas are amplified when you get multiple perspectives from different people. And it also becomes more inclusive. You're really thinking about a broader audience.

John: Absolutely. When you were talking about that, all of a sudden it hit me. I was a chief medical officer for a hospital for a while, about 14 years. And we would have these strategic planning sessions. And the thing was, what the CEO did, that was great. He made sure everybody was included in the conversation. And we had people in that group, it was about 10 people in the senior team. Some were introverts, some were extroverts. Some were older, some were newbies. Some were different backgrounds, where they grew up and different experiences. And really the organization always came out the best when we had everybody's input and could try and kind of put it together and people would come up with would seem like the oddest suggestions or the most out there. And they turned out to be the best solution for that particular problem.

Robin Landa: And that's where being open comes in because they could have been shut down.

John: Exactly.

Robin Landa: So, you were a great leader in that case by getting everybody to listen and not shut down the discussion. That's a great rule of improv. The yes-end. You say yes and you move on it.

John: No buts, only ands. So, you keep things moving, the conversation is going and come up with more ideas.

Robin Landa: Yes.

John: Well, okay. We're going to pause for a minute because I sometimes wait till the very, very end to talk about my guest products, book in this case. So, tell us how the book is laid out and maybe even a little bit about how you wrote it. I'm always interested in hearing about authors like the process they go through. I mean, you've done so many it would be interesting to hear your advice for fledgling non-fiction authors.

Robin Landa: Well, I can give you an hour or more of that on what to do.

John: I'm sure.

Robin Landa: This book is really very, very close to my heart. I got to work with an extraordinary editor, Steve Piersanti, who is the founder of Berrett-Koehler. And he really pulled out of me I think the best that I could give. I really wanted to make sure that people understood how to use my framework, my system, whatever you want to call it, the process to get to what they need, to get the best results. I tried to get them to understand the process and then gave many, many examples from different disciplines, because this really could be used in any discipline. I came to it through my own, but it really can be used across the board. I gave an example of Lin-Manuel Miranda's Hamilton. If you reverse engineer a lot of great ideas, you can see how my framework comes into play. But I'll give your listeners a clue, a tip, a big tip about writing non-fiction. Most people don't read beyond the first chapter.

John: I could believe that. I'm kind of so OCD, I will go through almost any book I start, but I agree. Okay. So, what's the solution for that?

Robin Landa: The solution for that is then in a non-fiction book, you have to lay out your entire premise in the first chapter.

John: Oh, okay.

Robin Landa: You have to give it all to them in the first chapter. And then the other chapters go on to explain different aspects of it, but everything is laid out in that first chapter. And if your listeners do want to think about writing a book, they really need to do a fantastic proposal because your book proposal at this point in time is really a marketing pitch. Not only is it about the content, but you've got to pitch it to that acquiring editor that they're called the commissioning editor in England, and a senior editor here, an acquisitions editor. Different titles, same person. That person is the first gatekeeper. But beyond that person, if that person says yes, it's got to go to the editorial board and the marketing team. So, it's got to be part marketing pitch.

John: Yeah. And that's one place where physicians are not that good at marketing and selling themselves. It's amazing. They're obviously interacting with the public constantly, but they kind of have this thing about selling themselves. But basically, that's just sort of letting people know that you're there to help and you have skills that they might need.

Robin Landa: Absolutely. And it's even difficult for me coming out of it because it's about yourself. I can advertise a brand or a product or you, but about myself, it becomes all of a sudden more modest. And so, I've had friends read my bio and say, "Really? That's all you're going to say about yourself? You've forgotten, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But a non-fiction book proposal at this point in time is heavily part marketing pitch. You have to let editors know what makes your book special and why you are the right person to write this book.

John: That's a good point. Yeah. I hadn't thought of it and never put it that way. So, tell us what's the best way to get your book? It's in pre-order status now, right? Because it's coming out in November and this will be released basically in early September. So, we have a little bit of time, but we can pre-order it. So, what's the best way to do that?

Robin Landa: You can go to any of your book sellers, you can go to my website, which will take you to a bookseller. It's really all over the place at this point. It's on the Penguin Random House website. It's on the Berrett-Koehler website, it's on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, but I would like your listeners to know that right now, anybody who buys the book, whatever money I get, I'm giving to the red cross for Ukraine for humanitarian relief. And once the book goes into regular sales, once it's published, I give 80% of my money to scholarship funds for students in need.

John: Very nice. Yeah. That also was very encouraging when you're purchasing something like this. That's another reason to buy it. You're doing some good through that process as well as learning something. So that's fantastic. The website is www.robinlanda.com. So that's there, you can find a place to buy the book there. I will put links of course in my show notes and make it simple.

All right. Any last words? I guess it would be more of encouragement for my listeners, what they might get out of the book and in general, how it might help them in terms of looking for a new career or a side business or something like that.

Robin Landa: Yes. I think anybody can come up with a worthwhile idea. It's not the person, it's the system you're using. So that if the process you're using isn't helping you, try the three G's, try goal, gap and gain. It's proven to work. I taught thousands of people to use it and they're all gainfully employed and have terrific hustles and side hustles and jobs. So, it's not you, it's the system you're using. You can do it.

John: It's amazing how these things that seem to be ephemeral or "Oh, I just have to think." There are systems, there are protocols or formulas you can use. And lo and behold, they actually work once you implement them the way they can be.

All right. This has been so much fun. I'm definitely on the list to pre-order the book because I could use some help with being creative. So, Robin, thank you so much for being here today and hopefully I'll contact you when you get your next book out as well.

Robin Landa: Thank you so much, doctor. I'm honored to be with you.

John: Okay. You're welcome. It's been my pleasure. Take care.

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You Wrote a Brilliant Book Now Record an Awesome Audiobook – 244

John Jurica — Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:35:45 +0000

Interview with Dr. Andrew Wilner

Dr. Andrew Wilner recently recorded an awesome audiobook. It is the narration of his book, “The Locum Life: A Physician's Guide to Locum Tenens.”

Andrew is an old friend to the podcast. I've interviewed him for three episodes prior to this one. We discussed his book, his experience as a medical writer, and his expertise with locum tenens jobs.

But when I discovered that he had recorded and released the audiobook, I wanted to hear more.

Andrew is a board-certified internist, neurologist, and epilepsy specialist. Since high school, he has been an avid writer. As a medical journalist, he has written hundreds of articles and has published four books.

He is also a “YouTuber” and podcaster under The Art of Medicine. There he interviews his guests on eclectic clinical and nonclinical topics. He hosts a second YouTube channel called Underwater with Dr. Andrew which posts his own underwater videos.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

The Locum Life

Dr. Wilner used locum tenens as a tool for achieving work-life balance. He became so adept at it, that he was inspired to write his book, The Locums Life: A Physician's Guide to Locum Tenens.

In addition to his personal experiences for the book, he interviewed several other locum tenens physicians. The book includes their stories, as well as his advice for:

finding jobs,
working with staffing agencies,
understanding malpractice insurance,
completing credentialing,
and optimizing travel and lodging.

Andrew's Awesome Audiobook

While promoting his book, Andrew was often asked whether there was an audiobook version. Since he has experience with audio technology from podcasting, he became interested in recording his book himself.

During our interview, he described the major challenges involved in recording a book. There are strict guidelines that must be met. And it is a meticulous and arduous process. But Andrew says he enjoyed it and is pleased with the end results.

Listeners can download the audiobook for free at andrewwilner.com/videos.

Word of Advice

Just to cut to the end, for any of you who are interested in doing your own audiobook: it is very, very hard. And it is definitely a passion project. – Andrew Wilner, MD

Summary

Andrew discovered the benefits of taking locum tenens jobs early in his career. And he used it to achieve and maintain work-life balance. He was able to combine his knowledge of locums and his love of writing to produce a very useful guide for physicians. And it was fitting that he would narrate his own audiobook, which he found challenging but fun and rewarding.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 244

You Wrote a Brilliant Book Now Record the Awesome Audiobook

John: Today's guest is a wise and generous gentleman. He is an accomplished writer and an active clinician and associate professor of neurology and the only physician author I know, the only physician I know who has recorded his own audio book. Hello Dr. Andrew Wilner.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Hey John. It's great to be here.

John: It's good. I'll explain to my listeners that this is your third appearance, but it'll be the fourth episode because your first appearance yielded two episodes where we talk about medical writing and about locum tenens. So, I thank you for that.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Well, John, I keep trying to get it right. Maybe a few more and it'll be acceptable. Those were all practice runs.

John: No, the listeners, if they go back to the old episodes and this one, they're going to learn a lot about locums and about writing and medical writing, and now something else, which I just had to hear about this process of creating your own audio book. But before we get into that, we'll just talk about little bit of your background. Just tell us your story and all the different things you've done and what you're doing now.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Okay. How much time do we have John?

John: Really five minutes for that part.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: All right. Good. I'll keep that in mind. I am a board-certified internist, sports certified neurologist. I trained in electrophysiology and I work as a clinical neurologist and epileptologist. That's kind of my day job. But since I was a kid, I just loved to read and write. I remember I must have been 13 or so, and I know it because my dad saved the letter. I wrote him a letter "Dad, I finally figured out what I'm going to do in life. And basically, I'm going to be a writer as a young teenager." And so, that has stayed with me. And as a young person, I wrote poetry and short stories and I have a lot of unpublished work. I have four books that are published and I became a medical journalist. And if you go to medscape.com, there's literally hundreds of news articles and commentary that I've written over the years as well as many of the other sites. I don't know, it's genetic. It's just one of those things that I was born to do so.

I think the background there is that the concept of work-life balance has always been a problem for me, since medical school where medical school's pretty consuming, but I wanted to write every day. And so even way back then before I think the term was coined and to common parlance work life balance. Work life balance was always a struggle for me. So, I've taken that very, very seriously. And that kind of led me into locum tenens, which was my solution to work life balance because I could work for a few months and immerse myself into the clinical realm, which frankly I think is very special. But then I could stop and do all the other things that I like to do without feeling guilty or torn, and do a hundred percent. I'm a diver. I like to be underwater and there's no cell single there. And you can't do that when you're on call. And I can write.

So, that's worked well for me. I kind of was on the cutting edge of work life balance, and that led to my book, "The Locum Life: A Physician's Guide to Locum Tenens." Because I saw so many physicians were kind of chucking their medical career because of all the hassles and looking at nonclinical careers. And I think there are some spectacular nonclinical careers. And of course, I'm talking to the expert now on that. And nothing wrong with that. But for those physicians who want to stay in clinical medicine, I thought they should be aware of locum tenens as an option. And many are not. When people would ask me, "What do you do? I'm a locum tenens physician." You get a blank stare. And somehow it was below the radar.

My book is sort of a how-to book on locum tenens. I think that came out three years ago. I interviewed a lot of other locum tenens physicians, and it's kind of peppered with all my stories about finding jobs and what to do on the job and preparing for a job and staffing agencies and malpractice and credentialing and travel. Really all the aspects of that particular way of practicing. So, that led to the audio book.

John: Right.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: When I was promoting the book itself, every now and then somebody would say, "Well, Dr. Willer, do you have an audio book?" Well, we were talking earlier. I am not an audio book person. I don't know. I've tried to sort of learn medicine and other things from audio books, but it always sounds to me like someone reading a book. Of course, it is someone reading a book, but it doesn't sound like I'm reading the book. It's like, there's a third person between me and the author, the writer. It's kind of a weird thing in my head. And I also don't remember things that well when they're just verbal, just listening to lectures on tape. That never really worked for me that well.

So, audio books were really not part of my kind of repertoire. I thought about it, well, let me look into that "make an audio book." And how do you make an audio book? It turns out that it's a whole world. audible.com and there's some competitors, but a lot of people it turns out listen to audio books.

How do you make an audio book? Well, the easiest way, I reached out for some advice and there's a guy, I think he calls himself the Physician Philosopher and he had just launched a book and I was reading his blog. So, I wrote him an email. I said, "How'd you do your audio book?" He said, "Oh, I just paid a guy $500. And he read my book and it was done." And it's like, "Well, okay. So that's one way."

I'm one of those people that does everything himself, my own podcast, the Art of Medicine with Dr. Andrew Wilner. I do the interviews. I do the editing. I post it, I promote it. I don't have a virtual assistant. It might be because I'm too frugal or I'm a control freak or some combination of the above, but I thought, "Well, maybe I could do an audio book." And so, I looked into it. It turns out just to cut to the end for any of you who are interested in doing your own audio book, it is very, very hard. And it is definitely a passion project.

However many books you sell, it's not going to come anywhere near the amount of effort at your going rate. Even if you're working at McDonald's, you're still going to do better spending the day at McDonald's than you are doing your audiobook. That being said, it was a huge amount of fun because it was a leap sort of into this completely different world that I was sort of beginning to learn with podcasting. Which microphone do you need and which kind of software do you use to record and how do you make your room silent? It's like, what does silent sound like?

It turns out a lot of people do make their own audio books and audible.com is sort of the go-to place. And they have something called the ACX University and there's lots of podcasts and videos on how to make your audio book. And there's a lot of elements to it. Of course, the big one that's hard is the tech part because there's a computer that will examine, you record each chapter as a separate file and there's a computer at ACX that's going to listen to it and decide if it's good enough. And if you just talk, it's not going to be good enough.

John: I get it. Okay. I'm going to tell you to stop there for a minute because I want to reflect on a couple of things here. First of all, that was one of the things I recognized. I'm going to go back to your story. You were seemingly much more intentional than the average person. I'm just going to throw that out there in terms of finding this work life balance. You had things you wanted to do. You didn't want to give them up for 8 or 10 or 11 years, and then another 5 doing this or that. That's something we should learn from. It can be done. You just have to figure out how to do it. Locums is one way to do it if you're a clinician. That's one of the things I really was impressed with the first time we met and we talked. So, that is awesome.

I want to also say that I'm with you. I listen to a lot of podcasts. I'm in the middle of moving and probably half the weight that I'm moving is books because I hate listening to audio books. Because I don't have them. They're not tangible. I don't know, there's just something about it. So, I'm with you on that. Those are the main things I just wanted to comment on.

But I did want to ask you more about the podcast before we get into the how-to that you're going to be explaining as at least how you did the audio book. So, tell me about the Art of Medicine. It's a podcast basically, also a YouTube channel. So, I'll call you a YouTuber and a podcaster. Just spend a couple of minutes talking about that because I think it's a generic enough title. So, what do you do on the Art of Medicine?

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Sure. Well, the Art of Medicine is pretty interesting because it wasn't that intentional actually. What happened was, I've always loved gadgets and using the computer for my creative work, making underwater movies for my other channel "Underwater with Dr. Andrew." I used to use iMovie and I graduated to Final Cut and I got a decent microphone and I love to do all that kind of editing.

After I published the Locum Life, I was trying to figure out how to promote it because it's not going to sell enough copies to hire a PR firm at $1,500 a month to promote the book and make it a New York Times Best Seller. It's kind of a niche book, but on the other hand, the people who are in that niche need to know it's out there.

I had the technical know-how. I said, why don't I just make some videos about the locum life and I'll post them. So, I did chapter one, chapter two, chapter three. Five-minute videos. And by the way, these are all available for free on my website, andrewwilder.com, just go under andrewwilner.com/videos. And I thought it's a free resource, a few minutes on each chapter, to get the essence. And it gives me an opportunity to talk about the book.

Well, after I finish chapter 20, who's like, "Well, what do I do now? I ran out." So, I thought, I know I'll interview somebody in the locum tenens world. I decided to interview my staffing agent at CompHealth, Nichole Paskett. And I interviewed her just like you're interviewing me now. And we chatted on Zoom. I edit it and I put it up and it was incredibly popular. It got a lot of views. "Oh, this is fun. Who else could I interview?" Then I thought, "Well, I'll interview my CPA." I have a great CPA, Ben Nanney, because he specializes in locum tenens physicians who work in several states, who are self-employed, and I get 1099s. There's a whole sort of world of economics that is a little bit different. H&R Block is not going to work for you as a locum tenens physician. So, you need somebody who kind of knows the ins and outs. And then, it sorts of grew.

I have a buddy, Michael Weisberg. He is a practicing gastroenterologist. The guy works really hard, super nice guy, but he wrote a novel. And I thought, yeah, let's get Mike on board. So, I've had him twice now. He's written two novels. I had this guy John Jurica come on, episode seven way back. I think I'm up to 61 now, and John talked about nonclinical careers and burnout. I followed John with Michelle Mudge-Riley, who is going to talk about nonclinical careers. And it just kept growing. Sometimes I have medical talks, like, of course, with COVID. I talk to neurovirologist. I've had a couple rabbis on to talk about spiritual aspects of death and dying. And I interviewed Christopher Loo just the other day who talks about financial independence for physicians.

And I interviewed this fascinating guy, Dave Combs, who wrote Rachel's song. And Rachel's song, and Dave, please, excuse me. It sounds like elevator music. He wrote it 40 years ago and it's like one of these songs you've heard a million times, it became a huge hit. But he got 50,000 letters from bands. He was previously a totally unknown person. He just happened to write this song and he got it mastered and put it out there. And many of them found that it helped them during their illnesses, that it was therapeutic. So, we talk about that on the Art of Medicine.

I've just had an enormous amount of fun with the Art of Medicine. I record it just like this. It goes up on YouTube. And then there's an audio only version, which I now know how to do because of recor ding and learning all the tech behind doing an audio book. And the Art of Medicine comes out every two weeks and it's a lot of fun.

John: Well, thank you for that update. And I think I've heard most of the episodes, but I don't think I listened to the one about Rachel's song.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: It's not out yet. It's coming up.

John: Ah, no wonder I haven't heard it. Okay. Well, we all have to listen to that. That's a lot. And I have the feeling or the impression maybe from a previous conversation that your work, you're a professor or associate professor. I'm not sure which. And you're teaching and taking care of patients, but you do have off time now. How is that balanced? Just out of curiosity.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Right. People ask how do you achieve work life balance? And I think the answer is you don't. You just try your best and get as close as you can. This is another way that locum tenants helped me in a way that I didn't predict. I worked as a locum tenens full time for about 10 years. And I would work for a few months and take a few months off. And those off months were usually spent in Southeast Asia, riding and scuba diving.

Fast forward, I met my wife. We got married and she's from the Philippines. She came to the United States with me, and I started dragging her along with me on my various locum tenens assignments. I was at your favorite place, Scottsdale at the Mayo Clinic. And I was in Minnesota. We were flying here, flying there. And then what happens when you get married? How many children in your family?

John: There's five.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Five. And you were one of a dozen or so?

John: I was one of 10. I'm the oldest of 10. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: One of 10.

John: Quite an anchor.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: That's quite an anchor. Yes. Having a child and flying around was kind of incompatible with that. Because if we were going to have a baby, I certainly wanted to be home and see what that's all about. I started looking for a full-time position. And I had learned from my locum work that what I really liked was a predominantly clinical job, but I loved to teach. And it was fun to work with residents. It's a little more stimulating and a little less of a grind and it gets you out of some of the drudgery work residents have to do. And as for attending, you don't have to. But there's different responsibilities, but that worked for me.

I had done a few of those as a locum's physician. Geography wasn't that important to me. I'd learned that once you're in the hospital, it's a hospital. And that's where you are most of the time. I started looking for a job and I would apply.

So, my wife and I went to Portland and I had a great job opportunity with Kaiser. We liked Portland, we liked the job, but it wasn't really exciting. I have an academic bent. And I remember asking, "Would there be some adjunct associate appointment? Could I write a paper every year?" And the guy looked at me, and he goes, "No, that would be a waste of your time. We want you to see patients." I said, "Okay, I could see that." But there's no residence there. It was a little discordant with what I wanted. This went on for two years. So, I would go to interviews. The jobs were pretty good, but there was always something. It's like, "Well, gee, this job, this is great. They're paying a lot. It's not that hard. It's in a beautiful location, but it's not too stimulating." Or some other reason why, but it's a job.

All of them were jobs that I would've taken because they were good enough, but I didn't take, because I had locum tenants to fall back on. Because when you need a job, you're willing to settle but I didn't have to settle. So, I just held out. I was like this works for me. When I come home after a week, my wife appreciates me more. It's not that bad. It's a good thing. We'll work it out. And finally, I stumbled on the job I have now where they wanted someone like me and they wanted a senior person who'd been around and had done everything to help with the teaching program, to help with their indigent patients, which is a population that I enjoy and spent a lot of time on over the years.

And I explained to them that I needed time off because I had all these other things going on. And I told them what schedule I wanted. And they said, "Well, as it turns out, we're kind of shorthanded. We've been doing this week on-week off thing. Would that work for you?" And I said, "Yeah, I think that'll work for me." And then they made me in charge of the schedule so that I was able to sometimes do two weeks on and two weeks off, which I just finished. And it was an experiment. Sometimes you get a little ragged and you got to pace yourself, but then you have two weeks to go to the dentist and work on projects and get things done. So, it's an experiment.

This job, I was able to match really 90% of the things I wanted rather than 62%. And this is my fifth year here. And you mentioned, yes, I am an associate professor, but I'm looking towards the possibility of becoming a professor. I've been publishing papers with the students and residents and trying to sort of elevate my game in teaching. And that's a goal of mine.

Work life balance. For me, there's always something else I'd like to be doing. Not enough hours in the day. I remember my dad saying that to me when I was even in college and I wanted to do all these things. And as you get older, it becomes more pressing also. Bruce Willis, that story really resonated with me, last week in the news that he has aphasia, which is kind of a strange way to present it. It's more of a symptom than sort of an illness, a disease.

I don't know why they presented it that way, but of course, I'm a neurologist, so I was interested. It could be a stroke, it could be a brain tumor, it could be dementia, it could be a million things. But it turns out Bruce and I, our birthdays are quite close. And Bruce is sort of the central casting for a V rail healthy masculine guy. I mean, could you be any tougher than Bruce Willis? I don't think so. And here he is succumbing. His career is over because something has struck him out of the blue. So, at our age, you really don't know how much time you have. And so, the concept of work life balance, and what's a priority becomes even more acute.

John: Well, there's no better movie than watching Bruce Willis get beat up. That's by far one of the top movies in my history of what I've watched. The work life balance. What does balance mean? It could be 5% of this, 10% of that, 20% of that as long as family and rest and health are in there, it is part of that.

The people I've interviewed like yourself who are extremely busy because they have all these interests are almost never burnt out. At least they don't feel burnt out. They're busy as heck, but they're doing so many things that they enjoy and they learn how to balance. And the thing is too, when you're doing a lot of things, you're actually much more efficient. I become very inefficient when I don't have a lot of things to do. I sort of just mop around and don't get anything done. But when I have five projects I have to finish today, they all get done somehow.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Yeah. There are these laws of physics. The task expands to the amount of time available. It's like Newton's fourth law or something.

John: Yeah. That's true. I just have to hand it to you, a good example of how to do it. What you're doing now or the university. Now this is a medical center. This is a university. An academic has a part-time so to speak, associate professor, maybe to be professor sometime. Have you seen other positions at that institution or elsewhere?

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Right. To clarify, I am actually full-time every other week, because I'm on call 24/7 and working on the weekends. And so, it actually is full-time, which is important, but you are absolutely right. I kind of stumbled on this job actually on the way to another interview. Memphis, where I am, is a wonderful city, by the way. But I couldn't have told you where it was six years ago, it was not on my radar.

Academic positions are very rarely week on week off. And when I stumbled on this, it's really a clinical position at an indigent hospital with a big teaching component. Grand rounds and a lot of collegialities. We have a wonderful chairman who is very enlightened because I did speak to a chairman similarly when I was applying and I said "I do these other things. I write, I publish articles for Medscape. I do interviews. And I'd like to keep doing them. They generate really a very small amount of income, but somehow, it's pleasurable and it's nice to do."

And he said, "If you come here, that's going to be tough." He said, "Technically, we allow you to do it, but you have to get permission to do it. By the time you get permission to do it, that opportunity will be gone." He says that's the way it works. So, you'd really have to give all that up, which I didn't want to do. And it's one of the reasons I didn't follow up on that. Whereas my chairman here, he said, "Oh, those things are great. They really reflect well on the university. You're out there, you're in public, you're doing high quality work. It's a nice shadow on UTHSC. And that's one of the reasons it gets along.

I think you have to look hard. But in medicine, there's a lot of different opportunities. Even one practice that's one block from the other practice has a whole different kind of culture. And you might make a different amount of money, different amount of hours, different amount of satisfaction. Whereas from a distance it's like, "Well, you are a group of five, they're a group of five." But personalities, attitudes, all can really kind of make or break the experience. So, look hard. Don't settle. Don't settle.

John: Well, it sounds like where you're working, that's a very progressive way of thinking. Job sharing or being flexible in the hours as long as you're contributing an equivalent amount of effort and whether it's time and output, we have to get more flexible in healthcare. We're not going to have any physicians or nurses or anyone else to do this work. There's only so many that these days are going to go into a typical situation. So, that's very interesting.

We have to spend the last few minutes here talking about a little bit more of the specifics of this audio book. Just get into technical aspects for a few minutes. For someone who maybe has already written a book and never thought about recording it, or maybe has thought about and hasn't pursued it. Explain how that process went for you.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Yeah. Well, I would say it was hard because I didn't have a mentor. So I just dove into it. How can I do this? First, it's like, how do you record? I use Final Cut to edit my underwater videos and it has an audio track. I tried that for a while, but then I realized that ACX, as I mentioned earlier, has requirements. For example, you must have a room tone at the beginning and end and be free of extraneous sounds. It must measure between minus 23 decibels and minus 18 decibels RMS and have minus three decibel peak values. And there's more. And it's like, what are they talking about? So, I had to figure all this stuff out. I said, I'll use the garage band, which I have on my apple computer. I fussed with that for a while.

Then I realized, it didn't work for me. I watched a lot of videos and people do it, but garage bands, I couldn't find where it gives you the numbers. You need numbers. Then I found there was a software called Audacity, which is public domain. It works for Mac, it works for PC, but it turned out it did not work for the Mac software version that I had. It was Catalina, whatever it was, it was incompatible with that particular one. And it almost worked. In other words, it looked like it was working, but it actually didn't work. And I searched it on Google and it turned out, "Yes, this one doesn't work."

Well, by that time, Apple, actually a few months later, came out with a new software update and Audacity worked. I watched a lot of tutorials on Audacity and it's really fun. I liken it to Photoshop. If you like taking pictures and fussing with them on Photoshop, well, this is the same thing, except you have an audio track and you can filter it and compress it and put more bass into it and contour it and average it. There are all kinds of fun things to do, but it was a lot of trial and error to be able to record a chapter.

And then in fact, Audacity has a little program after you record it, you use this ACX plugin, and it'll tell you, before you actually upload it to ACX, it'll say "This pass, this doesn't." And a lot got rejected. And so, I had to keep fussing with it to learn what I need to do so that it'll pass. And there's filters and there's things you can do. And there's a particular order in which you need to do them also. And just like Photoshop, you don't want to degrade your image by doing too much to it. It was really fun.

And then the whole other aspect that I really enjoyed learning about was voice. Because when you're doing an audio book, you're not just reading your book. Because if you listen to somebody, if you ever go to some school presentation and the kids are reading the book. It's boring because they're reading the book. To do a successful audio book, it's actually a little bit of acting. It's a little bit of a presentation. You have to be a little more animated than you would be in real life so that it comes through with some energy to the guy who's driving to work or jogging or whatever they're doing while they're listening to your audio book.

It was fun for me because since I wrote the book, the rhythms of the speech were natural to me. Because I wrote it. I think of doing someone else's audio book and of course, there are many people that do that for a living. There are people who are really experts at doing audio books. They've done 50 or 100 audio books written by famous authors. I'm sure if you go buy a book by John Grisham, there's an audio book that John didn't do. And it's a whole career sort of path. But to do your own is kind of fun. And because you're really reading the book a different way and making a little bit of performance art. And of course, you can do it over and over until you get it right.

Mine runs six hours and 45 minutes of me reading the book. But I could only record about 20 minutes at a session. That six hours and 45 minutes was probably about 20 recording sessions where I would go up to my little quiet office, turn off the air conditioner, turn off the fan, turn off the fish filter, tell my wife not to run the washer or the dryer. Hopefully the neighbor didn't have the gardener that day.

All of a sudden, the idea of quiet is not that easy to actually find a quiet space. And of course, if you really get into this, you can buy what's called a voice booth. It's like an old-fashioned Superman telephone booth made out of foam and you bring all your recording stuff inside and it's quiet. And that's what professional voice people use. I didn't really go off the deep end on that. I actually literally put foam up on the walls. I bought these giant pieces of foam and I still have them because I've moved since then. So, they're not on the wall. They're just scattered all over the room because you don't want the sound bouncing around. You want the sound to just sort of be smooth like a fine wine, like a fine Cabernet voice, just kind of cruise.

I will mention LinkedIn. Is it LinkedIn that has those courses now where you can take how-to courses? I did some of those on how to do an audio book. And of course, ACX has their own series. They even have one how to get your audio book to pass ACX because it's not easy. And if you're a beginner, it's just not going to happen. But I like challenges. And for me, this was really kind of a step into a whole other world that I didn't even know existed. And it was a lot of fun. If I write another book, which I'm hoping to do, I'm still working on that work life balance thing, but I will definitely do the audio book to go with it.

John: Will you do that immediately after finishing the written version or some short time thereafter or would you put it off for a while?

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Yeah. I've read about that and that's a marketing thing. And I think the answer is you launch simultaneously. While you've got the buzz, "Oh, I want the audio book. It's there. I want the Kindle. It's there. I want the hard cover. It's there." And then you just promote as much as you can, all the different modalities.

I think the rule of thumb is that for every hard copy or soft cover real book you sell, for every 10 of those, you'll sell one audio book. I think that's the way the audience tends to sit. And that's been true for mine. It's been about 10 to one. I've been pretty happy with that. It's a whole different audience that probably never would've read the book, that's picked up the audio book.

John: Now you said 20 minutes was your limit. What was the limiting factor that put you up to 20 minutes?

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Energy.

John: Really?

Dr. Andrew Wilner: It requires a lot of focus and a surprising amount of focus to actually read word for word what you wrote. Because in my mind, in fact, I did this a few times. I would just change it to a better word but it's like...

John: Hell no.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: But that's not the word. I wrote it the other way for a reason. And then my voice. I would try and do this first thing in the morning. You know how you have a nice resonant voice when you wake up, but then it kind of poops out during the day? So, it's not an end of day job. It's really a priority thing. So that 20 minutes of focus, if it was good, I would quit. Because if you're tired or you're not focused, of course, you just create a lot of work for yourself. You're doing it over and over and it's not right.

I don't like to do things twice. That's my other sort of golden rule for being efficient. You do it once, move on. I think that the "Eat the frog" concept when it comes to audio books is, do the hard thing first and where you've got focus. For me, I had the best focus, it used to be 02:00 in the morning, but I can't really manage that anymore with the rest of my obligations. First thing in the morning, I can do anything when I wake up. By 10:00 o'clock reality sets in, but first thing in the morning, I can do anything and I can do the audio book and my voice sounds good. And there you are.

John: Very interesting. All right. What I got from this is that you have to deal with the technical aspects and there are some resources out there from ACX and elsewhere to learn about that. The voice has to be stable. And I don't know if anyone wants to listen to my voice for six hours.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: You have a good voice, and simply keep the same distance from the mic. Something as simple as that. It's like, it's got to be so many inches. When you come back the next day, you can't have the cleaning lady move everything around. You got to be a little compulsive about your setup.

John: Now, some podcasters talk about putting the sound barriers or absorbers and things. And I haven't done much of that. I don't know if there's much hanging on my walls. I think I have a very directional mic that I happen to use. But when it comes to an audio book, of course, that becomes very important, you said. Because it's just so obvious if something is not right.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Yeah. Well, it depends on your own setup. Lots of carpet. People hang rugs on the wall. Some people record inside a closet that's full of clothes, which actually tempest the sound. That's sort of the cheap and dirty way to do it. It's to bring your laptop into the closet and close the door. I was looking for a little more refined setup than that, but that's kind of a backup plan and how fancy you want to be.

But I would record on a different floor of the house than wherever the other people are. And literally turn everything off that can be turned off. The air conditioning is often a problem. You know how it'll come on, because it's got its own thermostat. Often, I would push it one way or the other. So, it would have no chance. And sometimes I was hot and sweaty doing the recordings here in Memphis in the summer. Like I couldn't have that. It's just amazing what the mic picks up. You just barely hear the sound and I think your brain just doesn't really acknowledge it. It's just a background noise, but then you listen to it and it's like, "Eh." It's like, "Oh that's not going to pass ACX."

John: Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: You got to get rid of that. But the other part of the project I'd say more kind of globally that was interesting is of course I was really excited about doing this. It's something new. And I did the first few chapters, chapter five, and I started to get the handle of it. And then it's like, "Oh man, there are 15 more chapters to do."

And I would say in the middle it became very, very difficult. I have found that now in a lot of my projects that the middle is really just a test of perseverance and endurance. As I got to chapter 17, 18, the end was in sight and I kind of got this burst of energy. "I can get it done." But you're a marathon runner. So, you probably know exactly what I'm talking about. When you're at mile 10 and you got, I don't know how many more miles to go, it's like "I'm kind of done here" and it's a long, long way before that finish line. So, I could just go home and have a beer and watch TV and talk about it later. Sort of a life lesson kind of thing is that in the middle, it really struck me. It's like the middle is always hard, and it was for the audio book.

John: It sounds like medical school and residency to me that was that middle park. This has been a lot of fun, Andrew. I really appreciate this. Let's see. You've kind of alluded to what you're going to do next. Did you say you're planning to write another book and probably do the audio version of that as well?

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Yes, I am laying the groundwork for doing a fiction book, which is something I've wanted to do. In fact, I did write a fiction book many years ago. It did not get published. For better or worse, there was no self-publishing in those days. So, it did not get published. But writing is one of those things that you do learn by doing.

So published or not published, in fact, if you listen to authors when they got on a program like this and they talk about their latest novel, many of them, and I just heard one the other day. The interviewer said, "Oh, congratulations on your first novel. This is terrific." And this was the Big Time Talker with Burke Allen, which is a wonderful podcast. And, the author says, "Well, actually this is my fourth novel, but it's the first one that I've published." It's kind of a self-training thing. And many authors will tell you that "Yeah, it's my first novel, but it's really my fourth novel. The other ones are in the draw." You just kind of learn by doing. And so, I hope I'm learning by doing, but the next one I would like to see on Amazon. But don't hold your breath. It's going to be more than a year. In the meantime, you can enjoy the Art of Medicine where I interview other authors and pay attention. I pay a lot of attention. I'm hoping it's just starting here in terms of strategies. You also learn what you don't want to do. You read a book and you say "It would've been so much better if he'd done it this way. That way." But you also say, "Wow, that was super cool. How did he even pull that off?" Yes, but that's the plan. There should be a fiction book on my website, andrewwilder.com to join the other four books sometime soon.

And then the way things go, probably a year later, the audio book will surface and that'll be fun. That'll really be fun. I've never done different characters before. My book is a nonfiction book but there'll be this character and that. I hope I can do that. I hope I can do that. If I can't do that, I'll have to hire that $500 guy to do it.

John: We'll look forward to that for sure. Okay. So, you did mention, of course again, the Art of Medicine podcast, and obviously we want to know your website, which is andrewwilner.com. And if you want to look at the videos, just go andrewwilner.com/videos.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: Yes. And I love to get emails. You can contact me through my website. And if people have locum tenens questions, there are too many locum tenens things that I haven't figured out at one point or another. So, I'm very, very happy to share for fun. And then there's a lot of resources there. In fact, I even have a new tab "Resources" putting that up there.

John: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for spending this time with us today. I learned a lot today. I think you listeners have as well. And like I said, at the beginning, you are a wise gentleman. So, I appreciate you being here and sharing that with us, Andrew. You take care and we'll meet again soon hopefully.

Dr. Andrew Wilner: That was very kind, John. Thanks so much.

John: My pleasure. Bye-bye.

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The post You Wrote a Brilliant Book Now Record an Awesome Audiobook – 244 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Why You Must Put Yourself First to Avoid “Healthcare Disease” – 243

John Jurica — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 10:30:23 +0000

Interview with Dr. Simon Maltais

This week's guest explains why you must put yourself first in order to overcome burnout and “Healthcare Disease.” He is a successful academic cardiac surgeon who fell victim to both of those conditions. However, he overcame them and wrote a book to assist others to do the same.

Dr. Simon Maltais recently released “Healthcare Anonymous: Put Yourself First to Avoid Anxiety, Addiction and Burnout.” It addresses the root causes of burnout and other dysfunctional aspects of our health system in which most of us have worked.

Simon is an active cardiac surgeon in one of the world’s largest healthcare services institutions. He is an internationally recognized leader in the field of heart failure and alternative cardiac interventions. He is also a keynote speaker, author of more than 160 articles, and book contributor.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Healthcare Anonymous: Put Yourself First to Avoid Anxiety, Addiction, and Burnout

Dr. Simon Maltais started writing through journaling. And he held conversations with dozens of experts on the issues leading so many healthcare workers to stress, anxiety, burnout, depression, and addiction. In turn, this system leads to devastating personal and professional consequences for healthcare workers, patients, and society.

This book offers a guide for healthcare workers to understand these challenges and start a process of healing and recovery. It is intended as a way to start a movement to address these challenges. It is available through all of the usual channels. And it can be purchased directly from Dr. Maltais's website here.

Highlights from the Book

Characteristics and personality traits. Ego, perfectionism, self-discipline, and other traits often found in healthcare workers, and that are nurtured further during training, set us up for healthcare disease.
The influence of the environment and the system. Long hours, little time to rest and recover, and prolonged self-sacrifice in the name of the patient, keep us from identifying early signs of stress and burnout. and more. There are also unrealistic expectations by the public.
The way we interact with the system. Healthcare workers cope in ways that further interfere with balance in our lives.

Dr. Simon describes the development of healthcare disease as a process, that develops similarly to other diseases. It involves the agent, the host, and the environment.

Simon's Advice

“For physicians, especially certain types of physicians and especially the heart surgeon, being honest about having a problem, being honest about being at the end of the rope is hard. And taking a pause is even harder because taking a pause from what?…

“But I give tricks and pitfalls there on what I did in terms of removing some of the extra stuff that didn't align with where I was with my values. Basically, what you do there is you start creating time for yourself to think about those things.

“It's creating this extra space and then you have to let things go, and control your schedule.

“Once you get into that recovery, start analyzing every day, because it's like you're diabetic and you work in a chocolate factory, or you're an alcoholic and you work in a liquor store… You've got to find a way to protect yourself.”

Summary

The pain that physicians, nurses, and others in healthcare have been enduring is an epidemic and it is destroying careers and hurting patients. Healthcare workers are leaving their work in droves. Patients are unhappy because the system doesn't work for them either.

Dr. Simon's book starts another conversation intended to open our eyes to the problem, and help push for solutions.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 243

Why You Must Put Yourself First to Avoid "Healthcare Disease"

- Interview with Dr. Simon Maltais

John: I feel it is my duty to promote books written by physicians, especially when the book itself addresses burnout or some of the dysfunctional aspects of our health system in which most of us either currently or in the past have worked. That's why I'm thrilled to bring on today's guest. He just released the book called "Healthcare Anonymous: Put Yourself First to Avoid Anxiety, Addiction, and Burnout." Hello, Dr. Simon Maltais.

Dr. Simon Maltais: Hi, John. Thank you for having me on the show.

John: This is going to be really great. I love to talk to physicians that have written books, and again, particularly when they are so applicable to my audience, many of whom have gone through burnout or doing different jobs or side gigs or things to avoid it. This is going to be great. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, your training, your education, what kind of work you've been doing, and then what actually led you to writing the book?

Dr. Simon Maltais: Yeah. Well, thank you first and foremost for having me on the show. I'm very thankful for the opportunity, and really this has meant to really open a platform for conversation. I'm originally from Montreal, so I'm French Canadian. Sometimes if my accent comes out, it's more of a background thing than anything else.

I did my cardiac surgery turning over there. I did a PhD in biomedical engineering. I did a fellowship in heart failure, heart transplantation, mechanical heart at Mayo Clinic in Minnesota, to then start my career in Nashville in the south of the United States, at Vanderbilt University. I helped build a program there and then went back to be staff at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester for almost four or five years.Focusing my practices again on heart transplantation, mechanical heart, and then less invasive surgery and robotic heart surgery. So, pretty busy clinical practice. A fair amount of research as well. I have an interest for research and education in that field specifically, clinical outcomes mostly.

And over the past two, three years, I have had some personal and some professional challenges myself that were not all of abrupt, but were progressively affecting my practice and my overall life. It really started by journaling. It's interesting because journaling is kind of special with this book called Greenlight, where he basically reports journaling and how journaling has brought him a lot of positivity in his life.

And it's really started by journaling, writing what went wrong, what was positive, what was negative. And then all of a sudden, it started to make a lot of books and writings. And so, I thought, well, maybe I should think about maybe telling my story. And then that opened up to more conversation with people, and led to more stories that people wanted to share. I'm really fortunate to be the person that was able to bring these people together, to express what we're all feeling into a nonfiction book. And so, this is all that came together.

John: Awesome. That's very interesting. And I think you probably experienced some of the things that many, many physicians have experienced, obviously, that's I think what you're writing in the book.

Just to kick things off, I know a couple of terminology or a couple of terms I should say that I notice in the book. Just the title for example says healthcare anonymous and then healthcare disease as sort of the condition. Maybe you can start by defining those. I didn't catch the healthcare anonymously until like the third or fourth time. And I'm like, wait a second. It sounds like something else anonymous.

Dr. Simon Maltais: Well, yeah. Healthcare anonymous, it's a bit of a wing to alcoholic anonymous. It really depicts the structure of the book. I know at a certain point in my life I had to read that book. And the way the book is built, it really gives you the shades of what alcoholism can look like. It's not always when you see someone on the street and lose everything. Most people are just functional. They have jobs and things like that.

And so, the book is really about depicting those shades of burnout or anxiety or telling stories. And that's how this book is built, telling stories about people's life stories that depict some of the variations of what we can go through, through our career or through a career in healthcare. Healthcare disease, it's also sort of a term that, of course, I created. But I was trying to put together everything. The stories, what went on beforehand and when the anxiety or the burnout comes over and the recovery.

And as I was talking about building the book, it came to me pretty easy as a format to say, "Well, it's really like a disease where you have the susceptibility phase, the med school, the personality traits, the influences. Then you get into the preclinical phase where you're exposed to some of these environment changes, the constraints of a healthcare system. Then you get the disease manifestation and that's all burned out anxiety at different stories and then the recovery." That's how we just decided to build the term. To say it's a chronic adaptation problem that people develop within the system, that has both influences from the person that's in it, the environment and the way that people interact with it.

John: Yeah. Excellent. Well, I'm glad you kind of mentioned that. The way that you broke it down, because I want to ask some specific questions about each of those sections, and maybe we can highlight just to get as much as we can. Obviously, there is a lot in the book. I think it's 10 chapters and there's just a lot of background and detail, but I think the highlights will be very useful as we walk through it and give some of the listeners things to think about.

You alluded to what sets us up as healthcare workers that might be susceptible to this healthcare disease. A couple of questions. Can you go into a little more detail and also, does it affect everyone on the healthcare team? Is it the same for the nurses, for the therapists, and so forth? Does it affect doctors worse? What would you think?

Dr. Simon Maltais: Yeah, I think from that second part of the question, it's meant to be really a healthcare book. And so, while there's some doctors in the book, there's stories about different specialties, there's a technician, there are nurses talking in the book. And so, it's really expanding to healthcare workers.

The principles are the same, whether you're a doctor. Of course, there's references to medical training and what that entails and things like that. But altogether, I think a lot of the constraints that the nurses or others evolving in the healthcare systems go through are applicable to all the systems.

We really got to describe the disease manifestation as a process. That fits within a triangle. The example I give is any disease, you have to have a certain host. The person that contracts the disease. You have to have an environment. For example, E. coli, you have to have a warm environment, anything like that. And you have the agent, the bacteria.

I go through the same stuff within the book. I describe for example, what are the characteristics, what are the traits of personality that people in healthcare have in common. As a host that could put people at risk of developing the disease. And when I say disease, it is to make people realize that when it comes to the burnout or the anxiety or the addiction, that's the end result of suction, that's when the disease becomes apparent. We go into detail into ego, perfectionism, the positive and the negative stuff, the self-discipline, and the internal traits or characteristics that people have to develop or that are forced on them during medical training without necessarily the emotional maturity of being able to process them. That's the first part of the book.

Then we go and talk about the environment and we really expand that to changes in the system. Just what it looks like to work in healthcare. The long hours, having difficulties eating good food, the self-sacrifice in the name of the patient, and expanding that to the environment as a whole. The perception of healthcare from the public and how it affects us. What is represented in healthcare in those TV shows, how should it look? How does that influence people in training, people in practice? Because oftentimes you see these burnout doctors, you see people that just take on too much that have broken relationships that make out in the room, and are angry at work. And so, that's the influence that we're looking at.

Then I get into the agent and that's a bit of more of a concept, but it's the way you start interacting with the system. It's the mechanism that you develop to balance your life, to act a certain way in the system. Then the disease happens when all these three things become maladaptive together or become this regulated. That's how the book is sort of constructed around.

John: Okay. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. We'll get into, I guess the last section, which is about what we can do about it. Let me see if I have any other questions about the rest of it though. Do you think there are things that can be done even as early as med school, or even before med school to maybe pick those that aren't as susceptible to this healthcare disease?

Dr. Simon Maltais: Sorry to interrupt, but I think there's a lot of things that could be done in med school. And I remember med school or any sort of time where you get accepted into these healthcare trainings. A lot of it comes from identifying big problems, people with major issues functioning in groups. They don't really know how to select people, necessarily. Although they're getting better, some of the schools rely only on grades which is oftentimes a bad reflection of how good of a doctor you could be. I think a lot of my friends that are much more balanced emotionally stable could be better fit for medicine and for this patient sort of empathy you need to have.

That question, it could be better. I think it could be better about analyzing what are the specific characteristics or traits of character that people have that could make them a better provider or not. From that standpoint, I go over some of them. Perhaps for me, competition, perfectionism was really strong. And so, there's absolutely nothing else I would've done than heart surgery because it was cool, because it was an ego sort of boosting.

Now, thinking back now through recovery and still maintaining recovery, I realize that I'm good at different things. I pay attention to some other areas of medicine, maybe that I could have been a better use of my knowledge. And so, I think early on perhaps, helping people being influenced by people that are similar, have similar characteristics. Helping with mentors that are associated with what you want to do and identifying some of these things to sort of tone down some of these characteristics of people throughout training.

John: I think that's a great insight and I look forward to reading more about it in the book. If you ask most physicians, what they'll tell you is when they've gotten to a point where they've recognized it or in the middle of it, or have even overcome it, they will say, it's not because I'm not resilient enough, it's not because there's something wrong with me. It's because the system is completely out of whack. It's dysfunctional, expects things that it shouldn't expect, and there's no way to break out of it other than just quit. You go to get help and there's not a lot of people listening. Number one, is that true? Number two, has that changed? And have you ever seen an organization that's been really good at recognizing and addressing it?

Dr. Simon Maltais: Yeah, I think to that point, I'd say, I partially disagree. I think we have to own a part of the responsibility. Because it's always easy to say, yes, it's always easy to do more. It's always easy to put your family second. It's always easier to talk about medicine all the time, be at work and have this piece of the pie that is 90% work and 10% other stuff.

So that's on us in some ways. But it's also the way we were brought up. To put the patient first, to always do the work. I'd say I agree partially because the system is what it is. You can change it. You can swear about it. You can try to change things, but the system will change just because it's just powerful. It's this sort of machine that has to evolve over time to adapt to patients, to the economy, and things. It's the way you start interacting with it that I think is clear.

To your point, I think sometimes the only solution can be to leave it behind. I tend to be a bit more half full. I mean, for some people that will be it. And in the book, we have stories of people that have done it. We have stories of people, unfortunately, that are too late. By the time they realized they needed to do something. We have one very particular story where the wife is speaking about her husband that's now passed, from just being sick and depressed in healthcare.

But I think the better avenue is to really take a pause and maybe assess how you really interact with the system. And that's easier said than done because even yesterday I was having frustrating conversations and frustrating things at work. And I have to really reset myself because it's easy to get caught up in the vortex, I call it in the book.

But yeah, I think it does require an adjustment, how you interact with it, how you put your limits, how you scan yourself every day to see if you've done too much, not enough. That is active work. It's like realizing you're sick that you have a chronic disease to deal with, because if you get burned out, it's a chronic problem that finally manifests itself.

But then going back to the exact same place. Sometimes it's got to change. And hospitals are pretty good about pointing out when it's not well. When you come to work, you're drunk, where you sort of make mistakes, when you're angry, they point at you. And they're pretty good about that. The prevention of it, not so much.

Then the treatment of it, not so much. They'll send you the charm school. They'll check a HR box and they'll bring you right back. That part, I'm not entirely sure. And I do see some changes. Especially with COVID I think people realize that's a significant issue. And by the way, whether I do surgery through a hole like this, or a big hole like that, whether I do it with or without the pump, I don't think that's what's going to be the end of my specialty. It's how we treat ourselves and how we manage stress moving forward after all this stress over the last two years.

John: Interesting. Well, I will say to your point about maybe we need to really make better decisions about certain things. People that I talk to, physicians, who are trying to make a change, a lot of times they haven't even approached their boss, their partners with the problem, like, "Well, they're not going to care. They're not going to do anything." And in reality, when you do that and have a conversation, that's a real conversation, half the time, they'll say, "Okay, you want to cut your hours back? Okay. You want to do a job share?" There's not a lot of that, but most of us don't even think to ask about it. We just keep plugging along until it's too late.

Dr. Simon Maltais: It's too late. I think if there's some specialties that have been sort of, and I talk about historically built into that kind of mentality, where if you say "no" it's not good. Do the right thing. We used to say that. You're tired, you can't drive home because you haven't slept for 24 hours. That extra phone call, the word was DTRT - Do the Right Thing. That's how we were trained. And so, you just keep piling it on. And as I said, at some point, it's just too much.

John: Now at the end of the book, again, not having read it, which I should have gotten that Kindle version and read it before our interview here, but I've got the hard copy on order. But you come up with some suggestions, some job observations, some advice for the readers. And I didn't know if you could maybe just pick a few of those and give us some things to think about in terms of what we might do differently.

Dr. Simon Maltais: It wasn't easy to break it down because I try to build on my own experience, but I try to discern also what was common among the 20 plus stories I've had in the book. These stories are categorized into different clinical manifestations of the disease, whether it's physical, psychological, behavioral, and others, divorce and all that stuff. Which I think also is a sign of not taking care of your family and for many reasons it could lead to that. When I talk about recovery, I start from that, and then try to discern five steps that at least have helped me throughout the process. And it's not rocket science, but the first step is really to be honest and take a pause.

For physicians, especially certain types of physicians and especially the heart surgeon, being honest about having a problem, being honest about being at the end of the rope is hard. And taking a pause is even harder, because taking a pause from what? Just leave it. But I give tricks and pitfalls there on what I did in terms of removing some of the extra stuff that didn't align with where I was with my values. Basically, what you do there is you start creating time for yourself to think about those things. I'm reading this book. It talks about this space as a unicorn space. I think about it the same way. It's a bit different from what she talks about in the book, but it's creating this extra space and then you have to let things go, control your schedule. And I give tricks about that.

I think that's applicable for a lot of things in medicine. It's realizing that you are not God. And that doesn't really relate necessarily to the individual thinking he's better than everybody else. It's realizing that you are part of a process, that you are trained a certain way. Whether you're a nurse, you're a doctor, you can't control the outcome. You're just another bozo on the bus. So, you're not driving the bus, you're not following the bus. You're just another guy on the bus or a woman on the bus.

I think that when you start realizing that everybody has a role to play, first, it gives you a perspective. And it allows you to forgive yourself and to say, well, if I've done everything right, and the outcome is not good. I don't have to be angry. That's what we do. And sometimes there's an external force that's just stronger, it can take patients away or have them have complications.

I don't want to go through all of them, but I think the third most important one, I call virus scanning yourself. And it's to find time for yourself during the day, during the morning to do things that will allow you to reset time within a busy environment. And I think that's important for anything. Whether you're an athlete, whether you're a CEO, a lot of the coaching tips and pitfalls are to find a time to say, "Am I stressed today? Well, how do I feel? Where do I feel it? Is it in the back of my neck? How can I change things to feel differently?"

I think it's important steps. Once you get into that recovery, start analyzing every day, because it's like you're diabetic and you work in the chocolate factory or you're alcoholic and you work in the liquor store and you have a disease. You interact not so well with an environment and you put yourself right back into it. So, you got to find a way to sort of protect yourself. That's another big step I think that we try to identify or we try to give people insight into.

John: Yeah. And there's a whole lot more as you allude to, but I want to spend the last few minutes actually talking about the book and how to get the book and what's going on with the book. Why don't we just hit that? For the listeners, when this is being recorded, it has not been released yet, but it will have been released by the time I publish this. And I think the release date is April 5th, so it's a few days ago in the future. Where's the best place you can find the book, number one?

Dr. Simon Maltais: Well, you'll be able to find the book at most of the major stuff. It'll be distributed in all the Barnes & Nobles and the regular venues. You can have it on Amazon, Books-A-Million, and all the online things. You also can go to healthcareanonymous.com, which is a website we've created to have easy access to ordering the book. You can have order bundles, which comes with a certain work around it, where we can go to your workplace to do what's called the SWOT analysis of your workplace to try to help your team and people be better in the environment. Sometimes it's little things. It doesn't take much to make people happier and decrease turnover and certainly, it's valuable to do that.

But more importantly, I want to mention, for those of you that I think want to pass a message or start a company, I was just listening to the TED talk from Simon Sinek who wrote the book, "Start with Why." I always come back to, "Why am I doing this?" And it's not to sell books. It's not to formalize a therapy for Simon. It's to really start a movement because I do think that that's going to be the challenge for the next 10 to 20 years for healthcare, to manage the people within the system, to take care of their workers that can then overly take care of to foster.

There's not a week now, for those of you that are in the system that will resonate. There is not a week now that I hear another partner, yet another person that either leaves medicine or healthcare in general. A nurse that transfers to something for better hours, or leaves medicine altogether. A surgeon that has left another hospital for "issues."

That is the real threat I think to healthcare. There were thousands of nurses missing to take care of patients. They're out there. They just are going through something real. The real "why" on this is to raise the movement and try to have people understand that that's a real threat. We provide even more help through a site called breakthroughpoints.com where I've aligned myself with other doctors from around the country and professional athletes to raise even a bigger, because I think a lot of the themes are common, whether you're in healthcare, you're an athlete, you're a CEO, a lot of the themes are common and we're proposing a system there to help people get through this and have a better life.

John: Excellent. Yeah, that is great. I recommend people go to healthcareanonymous.com. It's a cool site and there's some testimonials and you explain a little bit about again, why you wrote the book and all that. Plus, it has the opportunity to buy boxes of copies of the book. Maybe if you're part of a team, you want to share it with other people. That would be a good starting point. I appreciate that. And I'll put the links to that and to breakthroughpoints.com in the show notes. Maybe we'll reach out to you again in a year or so and see if things are getting any better.

Dr. Simon Maltais: Yeah, this is the hope. I've gotten really good feedback and I've got a lot of opportunities now to speak and meet people and that's been great. Just spread a message of hope. One of the guys tends to summarize it pretty well. He says, we were called heroes. And now that the system has to recover from all this, there's only one word difference between "hero" and "zero". Unfortunately, that's what we're seeing. We're seeing people closing, getting fired, because they have to recuperate money somewhere from all those two years of COVID. So, it has a significant impact on everybody. I hope that your listeners will not only just get the book, but spread the message.

John: Your point is well taken. I don't think that the people in charge, whoever that is, realize the pain that physicians, nurses, others in healthcare have been enduring and the fact that they are leaving in droves and they're not being replaced effectively. And patients are already unhappy. Every patient I used to see was unhappy because I was rushed. I couldn't spend time with them. The system didn't work for them. Accidents happen, mistakes are made. Man, hopefully, something like this will be recognized and followed like you said, to fix it.

Dr. Simon Maltais: I was just reading this Harvard business review. The companies have adapted better, the tech companies. When you come in, you propose hybrid work and that kind of stuff. It's better received than our culture where there's more history where you have to wear the white coat, you had to be there in your office all day waiting. Actually, I've proposed now. I'm very fortunate. During COVID I've been proposing that model to a hospital. And actually, my three partners have the same. We're here, we work hard. We have this hybrid ability to take time off. And I think a lot of systems would benefit to have rested people and allow some of that flexibility.

John: And I think some of those big, massive companies are actually creating their own health systems like within their borders in a way, the Googles and that. Maybe that'll be an option down the road. All right. Well, Simon, I will let you get back to work. I thank you very much for talking about your book today and we'll keep an eye out to see how things progress over the coming years with this problem, not just with the sale of the book, obviously with this problem.

Dr. Simon Maltais: Well, thank you again for the invite, John. I'm very fortunate and I thank you for the invitation.

John: All right. You take care. Bye-bye.

Dr. Simon Maltais: Thank you.

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The post Why You Must Put Yourself First to Avoid “Healthcare Disease” – 243 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

How to Land An Awesome Job Using LinkedIn – 232

John Jurica — Tue, 25 Jan 2022 17:47:30 +0000

Interview with Dr. Heather Fork

Dr. Heather Fork makes her third appearance on the Podcast in today’s interview with an important message about using LinkedIn.

Heather is an ICF master certified coach. She helps physicians find their best career path forward, whether in medicine, a nonclinical career, or something else.

In 2010 she founded the Doctor’s Crossing. Since that time, she has helped hundreds of physicians find greater career fulfillment and meaning in their work.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

New Podcast

She hosts the weekly Doctor’s Crossing Carpe Diem Podcast. And she is passionate about creating new resources to make it easier for physicians to navigate their careers.

She previously described her Resumé Writing Kit here on the PNC Podcast.

Using LinkedIn

Heather begins our discussion by explaining what LinkedIn is, and why it is unique among social media sites. She notes that when she started coaching, LinkedIn was not an essential tool for physicians seeking a new career.

The biggest mistake physicians make is not getting in the parade and having fun. – Dr. Heather Fork

Today, she says that 100% of her clients use LinkedIn as an integral part of their career search strategy. That's why she found it so important to help her clients and other physicians by creating a LinkedIn course for them.

Summary

Dr. Heather Fork explains why LinkedIn is important, and how to use it in your professional life. She also explained the most critical functions to utilize and points out little-known tips when using it, including her “Alumni Hack.” She has created her own “how-to” course called LinkedIn for Physicians that anybody can purchase if they need help setting it up.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 232

How to Land An Awesome Job Using LinkedIn

John: I'm very pleased to bring today's guest back to the podcast for the third time. She's been an awesome source of support for physicians struggling with their careers for many years and she's a very well-known ICF Master Certified Coach in resume and LinkedIn expert. Hello, Dr. Heather Fork.

Dr. Heather Fork: Hello, iconic Dr. John Jurica. Thank you so much for that very generous intro. And I have to say, I am a huge fan of yours. Yours is probably the first podcast I ever listened to.

John: Well, I'm happy to hear that and I'm glad to hear it. And it's mutual because I love your podcast. Oops. I shouldn't have spilled the beans that you have a podcast. That's one of the new things you're doing. But I love your podcast, I love your coaching, and your blog too has much good stuff on it. We're not going to go over all your past history because they can go back and listen to the previous episodes if they like. What I really want to know is since it's been about a year and a half, what new things have you been up to?

Dr. Heather Fork: Well, spoiler. A podcast.

John: There you go.

Dr. Heather Fork: Now, you inspired me with this medium that I've been putting off. And when I heard you and then Amy Porterfield, I thought this is so valuable. Especially since I don't really like to write and I've been blogging for 10 years, I just had to do something different.

The podcast started last October. And as you know, it's a lot of work to do a weekly podcast, but it's much fun and I love getting my former clients to come on and other guests because they're so fantastic. And what I hear from listeners is I don't feel alone anymore. Someone else feels the way I do. I don't feel like I'm damaged goods and I have hope.

John: Yeah. Well, it's been a while since I started, but one of the things I realized shortly after I started and I heard from people is that you are part of people's life. They know your voice. I was at a meeting once and someone came up to me and said, "Hey, I recognize you. Aren't you John Jurica?" We were at a meeting about nonclinical careers. But just that whole idea that you're talking to them directly.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yes, it's intimate. And I love it because you can really help people feel too what you're expressing and what the guests are expressing. I think it really changes the landscape from being something to just thinking about making changes, to feeling like it's really possible. That these people are really alive. Someone just didn't write a bunch of stuff and put it on a paper and made it up.

John: That's true. Now, oddly enough, there are some people that have never listened to a single podcast. I don't know how we get to them. But for those who are listening and want to learn about nonclinical careers or burnout or nontraditional careers or just, I don't know, feeling better about your life, definitely, you want to listen to Doctor's Crossing Carpe Diem podcast. Why did you pick that name?

Dr. Heather Fork: I just love the term "carpe diem". And my coaching program is called Carpe Diem because like Robin William said in that movie, "Dead Poets Society" that, "Before long we're going to be pushing up daisy's unless we carpe that diem." And we got on this path and our whole life has been planned out for us. And if we don't really question, is it what we really want to be doing? Is it making us happy? We'll be pushing up daisy's and saying, "Oh my God, I didn't get to have the life I wanted."

John: For sure. Yeah. Seize the day, right?

Dr. Heather Fork: Yes.

John: All right. Everyone's going to go listen to your podcast, but that is not really the main reason I wanted you to come on today because we discussed something a few years ago about creating different resources for people that we could share with our followers and our listeners and all that.

And then I saw that you, the expert in LinkedIn, recently created a course. But I'm going to just talk to you about LinkedIn. That's what we're going to spend the next 20 minutes doing, because I don't think that our listeners always understand the importance or why we should learn about it if we're not already using it. Just explain what LinkedIn is for those that have never used it, or have just dabbled a little bit and maybe why it's different from other social media sites.

Dr. Heather Fork: I'd love to. LinkedIn is considered the number one networking platform for professionals, and it has over 800 million members. So, it's worldwide. And I'd say the main thing about it, that's different from Facebook and Instagram and these other platforms is that it's really for those of you who want to have a professional platform, you can have your own profile, who want to network with other professionals with a really powerful search engine. I call it the Rolodex on Steroids. And also, be able to use your profile to apply for jobs and interact with recruiters. It's one-stop shopping and a platform that's continuing to evolve.

John: Well, I'm on LinkedIn fairly often. It's actually one way that I find podcast guests, for example. And being an introvert, I'm not a big networker per se, but it's an awesome way to network as is a podcast, of course.

But the thing is, I have never seen a nasty conversation on LinkedIn. People are like, they don't want to go to Twitter and Facebook because it's just loaded with sometimes some nasty stuff. And LinkedIn is, like you said, it's professional. It's a place where you can find jobs and post jobs, if you like. Does it come into play a lot in terms of the people you work with, that you coach or that you're teaching? I know you've done some speaking about LinkedIn. Does it seem to help them? And how often does it become a critical part of their career search?

Dr. Heather Fork: That's a great question, John. And I would say back in 2010 when I first started, LinkedIn was there, but it wasn't used as much. But now all of my clients use LinkedIn. And let me explain how it's helpful by painting a little scenario. Let's say we have two physicians and they're both applying for the same nonclinical job. One is on LinkedIn, one isn't. The one who isn't on LinkedIn applies through the regular channel, say maybe Indeed with their CV or resume. Then the other physician applies on LinkedIn. And the difference is when the recruiter gets a CV for that first physician, they just have the CV or resume. They don't see a picture. They don't see recommendations. They don't have this dynamic visual of the physician.

Then if they go to the physician who applied through LinkedIn or even has a link for their LinkedIn profile on their resume, that recruiter can click and then they already see this beautiful face. They see a lovely banner photo and then everything's right there that they need that would've been on the resume. Plus, there are a lot of additional things you can put on your LinkedIn profile. They might read a recommendation that describes exactly who they're looking for. That's not going to be on your resume.

John: Absolutely. Yeah. In my mind, I think about a Venn diagram, things overlap and a resume and LinkedIn overlap a lot, and then networking overlaps with your LinkedIn. And you're right. The LinkedIn profile is just so much more complete. Not that you want to send in a five-page resume. But if someone wants to look for that information, it's right there on LinkedIn.

Dr. Heather Fork: Exactly. So, the physician who's using LinkedIn, when they want to apply for a certain job, they could find a physician who's working in that company, and they can reach out to them for an informational interview. And then often those physicians get a finder's fee if they refer somebody who gets hired. So, there's an incentive for them to talk to you. If that person's applying and they were recommended by another physician, the recruiter already likes them because there's a much higher success rate for candidates found that way. It makes it easier. So, you can see how very quickly that physician who's on LinkedIn already has many advantages.

John: I had a podcast guest tell me once that submitting a CV on a website is the way of madness. She had literally said she had submitted a thousand resumes and had never received a response. And she noted that once she figured out that she just needed to have some connection with somebody, either find out who the hiring manager was or have somebody that she knows in the company, some touchpoint, then she had some actual jobs that were requesting she come and interview.

Dr. Heather Fork: Oh my gosh, that's such a discouraging story to send out thousands and not hear anything back. I'm surprised she persisted that long.

John: Well, I think it's misleading because it's just so easy. Oh, I'm just going to cut and paste and cut and paste and cut and paste. But no one's looking at those kinds of resumes, I don't think. My daughter is a recruiter for a big firm and they use LinkedIn constantly.

Dr. Heather Fork: Well, it's really becoming the go-to platform for recruiters. And when you apply for a job on LinkedIn, often, you'll actually see the recruiter that's connected to that position and you can reach out to them. You can attach your resume right there in addition to the formal application process. You can start a relationship. You could also just look at jobs you're interested in and you may not be ready to apply, but you can connect with that recruiter and say, "Hey, I'm not ready yet, but I'd love to establish a relationship with you."

John: Yeah, absolutely. That's so true. You mentioned how all of your clients use LinkedIn. Can you give us some examples of where it was very critical to a particular, without naming names, particular clients?

Dr. Heather Fork: Sure. Absolutely. I have some great stories. I had one client who wanted to transition into a certain nonclinical area. And we were on the phone together and we were both searching on LinkedIn. And because she wasn't having a lot of success at first, connecting with a couple of folks on LinkedIn. So, I said, "Here, let's find somebody." I found this person with her same specialty, and she sent him a message. She heard from him the next day. They had a chat. It turns out they knew a couple of people in common who were working at that company as well. She ended up getting an interview and it took a while because they didn't quite have an opening then for her specialty, but she got the job and she's working in the job and she's really happy.

John: Very nice.

Dr. Heather Fork: I have another story. This was a physician who was brand new to LinkedIn. When she came to me, she didn't have a profile or anything. She created it. It really doesn't take that long when you just follow the steps. And I taught her my alumni hack, which is one of my favorite little things to do on LinkedIn that's very powerful, is to search your alumni network. That could be people you went to college with, med school, even your training program, and see if they're working in the industry or at the company that you're interested in.

She found someone who went to her small liberal arts college who was working in the company where she wanted to work. She messaged him, he got back to her right away, and said, "Send me a resume. I want to give it to the hiring manager." She did that. The hiring manager reaches out, interviews within a week. Does another interview, gets the job. There was one and done. One application, a couple of interviews, got the job.

John: It's amazing. I think sometimes we feel like if we're reaching out to someone, we haven't seen in 20 years, they're not going to respond. But the reality is when I'm on the receiving end, if I get a note of any sort, whether it's an email or LinkedIn and they're from my Alma mater. I mean, invariably, I respond immediately. That's just human nature, I think.

Dr. Heather Fork: You are family, and those little connections are huge. It's funny how we're like that. The first time we had gone to the school, like I said, 20 years ago or before you, or after you, but you are buddies.

John: Yeah. Even if it's someone from two or three years, if you're at the same school, you just have that bond and can talk about the different things and you feel like you're somehow you owe that person for some reason in a good way.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yeah. You just feel this common connection. That really it feels like a blood brother or something.

John: Now, I hear another thing people tell me about LinkedIn is they create a profile and they should put certain keywords if they're looking to be found by someone. Is that a big thing? Is that a minor thing to consider?

Dr. Heather Fork: That's a great question, John. Now, there's something on LinkedIn called "Your headline". And this is what comes below your name, or you have your degrees and everything. And by default, LinkedIn puts in the company where you're working and your job title. That's just by default. But you can customize this headline with keywords that will help recruiters find you or the people you want to find you. For example, it might just say that you're a physician at Slippery Rock Clinic, or something like that. But you can put in, medical writer, consultant, physician advisor, you can put in expert witness, the side gigs that you might be doing. Even you can say, "Seeking position in drug safety".

John: Wow. Nice. That helps really to key off those who are actually looking on LinkedIn for someone to contact like a recruiter or something like that.

Dr. Heather Fork: You can do that. And then those keywords also are important to have in your "About section", which is like your customized bio. They can also go in your "Experience section". They can go anywhere on your profile and they are searchable.

John: That really helps. I'm telling you. Let me turn it around now. Here's the way I like to look at things sometimes is like, let's look at the other side of the coin. What are the mistakes? Now, we've kind of alluded to them in a way by what a good way to use LinkedIn is. But have you seen working with people and said, "Wait a second, this is why people aren't looking at your profile?" Any common mistakes that we make when we first start to use LinkedIn?

Dr. Heather Fork: I would say there definitely are mistakes like that, of not optimizing the profile. And there are lots of ways to do that. But some of the biggest mistakes are really just not getting in the parade and then shutting the parade down too soon. What do I mean by that? Not getting in the parade is saying, well, I'm a private person. I really don't like to put myself out there, or I'm really introverted. I don't like to network. Or you get on LinkedIn, you put up a basic profile. Maybe you send a few messages, apply for a few jobs, nothing happens. And you just say, well, this doesn't work and I don't have time. Which I completely understand. It is not the most intuitive platform. And these things that I teach in the course help you know how to use it and use it strategically so it's not wasting your time.

John: Okay. Now you mentioned the course. I mentioned it earlier and I do want to learn more about the course. I do want to remind my listeners though, of course of your website, doctorscrossing.com. That's where pretty much they can find everything. Now I understand also, you have a page there that has a bunch of free resources. That looked pretty awesome. Can you tell us about that first?

Dr. Heather Fork: Absolutely. On my website, under the freebie tab, there are these downloadable PDFs that you can have. One is a starter kit that's very extensive on how you can go from being overwhelmed at the crossroad to figuring out how to move forward. That has a lot of great information for your career process. Then there's one on medical writing. There's one on pharma. There's a chart review. There might be some others there. I can't quite remember, but you can go to the freebie tab and take whatever you want.

John: I went and looked today. I think there were at least six that were there and they address different things. I've downloaded several of them, of course, but I would recommend people to go. And you can go directly there at doctorscrossing.com/freeresources, or just go to the website and look for it.

Okay. Now you have a LinkedIn course. This is something that I have been looking forward to for a long time. One of those things that I thought we really needed. I have this little video that I made five years ago where I built a LinkedIn profile. It is so dated. It is so ugly. And then I just said, "I'm not going to do anything, because I'm waiting for Heather to come out with her course." So, it's called what? LinkedIn course for physicians?

Dr. Heather Fork: You always do quality work and you're also incredibly prolific. You put about a hundred things to my one.

John: Okay. I'm not going to argue with you except that this course is beautiful. I will say that it's a lot prettier than anything I've produced. It's just awesome. Tell us about how it's structured and what does it go through?

Dr. Heather Fork: Thanks for asking. And I have to say, this has been the hardest thing I've done in my business. It took me a year. It wouldn't take me that long if I was doing the second one, but the course is three hours of video that's broken down into 22 short lessons, five minutes to 10 minutes. And what it does is it walks you through creating your profile, then teaches you how to start networking and message people. There are specific examples and templates to use of, "Well, what do you say in that message when you only have 300 characters? What do you do when someone doesn't respond to that message, and then how do you write longer messages"? We cover networking and then we go on to "How to start searching for jobs?" Because that's another thing that really gets people in a twist is, "I see all these job descriptions and they want five to seven years and I'm not qualified" and that's another area of difficulty. I really talk about that.

And then I also show them how to apply for jobs and work with recruiters. And there's all these little things you don't really know about. For example, did you know, John, that you can put yourself in anonymous mode when you want to go look at people's profile, but you don't want them to see that you've been visiting them and then you can turn it back on and be visible?

John: No, no, I've never tried that, but it would be definitely a useful tool.

Dr. Heather Fork: It really is. You can stalk a bit on LinkedIn.

John: One of the things that I did find out though is if you have a profile and you want to make a change to it and you don't want your boss to be notified of the change, you can go in and turn that off temporarily or permanently where they won't be notified of new changes. You can be a little under the radar that way.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yes, that's 100% correct. You can stop those notifications to your contacts. A couple of other things about the course is that I really wanted to make it easy to use. With each lesson, there's a downloadable cheat sheet that goes over all the steps, and in the videos, I'll teach about how to do something. For example, how to write your "About section". And then I'll go on LinkedIn in the video and show them exactly how to do it, where to click, where to go, and then show examples of other physicians about sections.

My goal was to take the frustration out, make it doable. And I love people now responding to me saying, "Oh, the course was really easy to use. I'm really happy with my profile now," and they'll send me their profile. And it's so fun to see how great they look.

John: It's good to have someone who really understands how something like this is used telling you and teaching you about it because I've been using LinkedIn for a long time. And I was just in your course a couple of days ago and there was a whole section. I was like, "Oh, I could probably really get my connections up quite a bit using this technique that you described". Which is again, reaching out to alumni or other ways of networking. And then, there's different ways that you can connect. There are some with a message, without a message. And I just really was really impressed and I'm definitely going to go back and go through that section. Especially when I'm looking for a new podcast guest.

Dr. Heather Fork: Well, thank you. And that was my goal to just make it easy because we don't have extra time to waste and I don't want people to get frustrated and then give up.

John: No, absolutely. And it can be frustrating until you really get a feel for it. Well, there are different ways that they can access this course. They can get it from your website, but I happen to be an affiliate. I have a link for it. And the only reason the listeners might want to buy it through my link is that they also get a free bundle of courses from my nonclinical career academy worth a couple of hundred dollars.

I'll put my link for them to look at, nonclinicalphysicians.com/linkedincourse. And I'll probably put that actually on my website at some point permanently if you'll let me, but that's an easy way to go. If they happen to be at your website, they're going to obviously sign up there. You've got some other resources there as well. So, anything else you want to tell us about the LinkedIn course before we move on off that topic?

Dr. Heather Fork: Before I say anything else about the course, I do want to say, please get it from John because he's so wonderful. He works so hard and I'd really like to support him. Please feel free to use his link. And if you come to my site, and you forgot his, just email me and I'll send it to you. I want you to support him, but thank you for all you do for me.

About the course and LinkedIn in general, I would just like to say that if you feel that this is not what you're naturally good at, networking or putting yourself out there, just let go of that. Because a lot of my clients are introverted. They had the same feelings about LinkedIn. They would drop their shoulders and just feel like, "Ugh, do I really have to, Heather?"

But once they get on there and do things such as usually the alumni hack and they get someone to respond to them, they're really happy. It's a game-changer. And all of a sudden, they see that being on LinkedIn is like treasure hunting. We don't have to call it networking. Let's just call it treasure hunting because you do find these treasures of people who will definitely help you out and open doors.

John: Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. Maybe I'll make you step back even further, just in considering all the clients that you've known over the years and the people you're helping now, any other advice you have for physicians who just right now happen to be just kind of frustrated with the whole process of thinking about doing a side gig or trying to overcome burnout or anything like that?

Dr. Heather Fork: Yes. Yes. And if I can go back to my parade metaphor.

John: Sure.

Dr. Heather Fork: I would say, just get in the parade. Don't sit on the sidelines and watch other people's floats go by and say, "Oh, well, look what they're doing. Why can't that be me? They probably just knew somebody or that's not going to happen to me." I say, get in the parade, start building your float. And when you're building your float for the parade, you start with your platform. And you don't have to know where the parade is going. Just start with your profile or just start thinking about what you want to do, what's working, what's not working. Build your platform.

And then when you're actually on your float and riding in the parade, have fun. Don't look around at other people's floats and say, "Oh, theirs is better than mine. I'll never be like them." Cheer them on, dance on your platform, and have fun because it's not about getting to the end of the parade, we're all going to get there, but we want to be enjoying the parade while it's happening, which it's your life. I'm there standing on the sidelines cheering you on. Get in there so I can wave my pom-poms for you.

John: That is so cool, Heather. It is. And listeners can get a sense if they haven't read your blog or listened to your podcast, they're going to get more of what you just heard. That's a good thing. Let's go over that again.

The podcast is the Doctor's Crossing Carpe Diem podcast. They're going to find that on any app, Spotify, Apple, whatever. Definitely listen to that, go to doctorscrossing.com, and look for those free resources. And if you want to learn more about the course, go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/linkedincourse, and you'll have a page there where you can learn more about it. I think we've covered everything I wanted to cover today, Heather. This has been fantastic and fun. I'm always happy to be able to spend a few minutes talking to you.

Dr. Heather Fork: It's such an honor, John. I'm a huge fan of yours. And can I put a plugin for your new script app that you have?

John: Yes.

Dr. Heather Fork: I love all the things John does. If you haven't heard about his new script app is a community where you can join very, very affordably and get a lot of wonderful content, access to his courses, access to mentors. John, you can let people know the price and how they find it. But I think it's something to really look into.

John: Yeah. The nice thing about it too is it's not limited to physicians. And so, most of us work in teams, whether clinically or nonclinically. It's actually designed for any healthcare licensed professionals, psychologists, social workers, PAs, MPs, oral surgeons, and doctors. It's like less than $5 a month. It's newscript.app. I appreciate you bringing that up today, Heather.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yeah. How can you not? $5 Starbucks, miss that for one day, get the new script app and you'll be doing a jig.

John: Absolutely. All right, Heather. Well, thank you much. I guess we're at the end of our time now, I'm going to say goodbye and I hope to see you again soon and back on the podcast sometime.

Dr. Heather Fork: Thank you, John. I really appreciate you having me on.

John: You're welcome. Bye-bye.

Dr. Heather Fork: Bye-bye.

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The post How to Land An Awesome Job Using LinkedIn – 232 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.