Interview with Dr. Sue Zimmerman – 366
In this podcast episode replay, I'm speaking with Dr. Sue Zimmerman, an orthopedic surgeon who found satisfaction in writing, teaching, and limiting clinical work to a manageable level. In her case, it meant walking away from the operating room.
She describes how she shifted from traditional orthopedic practice to a more balanced and fulfilling lifestyle, and the strategies she used to find her way.
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[From the original post in 2018:]
Dr. Sue Zimmermann Seeks Balance in Her Work
Sue Zimmermann graduated from Medical School at Brown University and then pursued her orthopedic training at New England Medical Center. Then, she practiced orthopedic surgery at Dartmouth Hitchcock Health System in Nashua, New Hampshire for 24 years.
She began to think about retiring but with the idea of slowing down and entering a nonclinical career. So, she searched for a coach, ultimately working with physician career coach, Dr. Heather Fork. Listeners will recall that I interviewed Heather in Episode 18 of this podcast.
Be happy By Writing, Teaching, and Limiting Clinical Responsibilities
In the interview, Sue describes how she was preparing for her transition when she suddenly lost her position at the hospital where she worked. Fortunately, her planning paid off. She was ready to make the shift. She networked with colleagues, identifying several opportunities that fit her goals.
As a result, she is now working in an outpatient orthopedic clinic, teaching and writing. Her quality of life is excellent. And her income is meeting her needs at this stage in her life. She has achieved real balance in her professional life.
During the interview, we discuss the following resources:
- Drop Out Club for job postings
- PANCE (Physician Assistant National Certifying Exam)
- PANRE (Physician Assistant National Recertifying Exam)
- Association of Women Surgeons
- List of ARC-PA Accredited Physician Assistant Schools
- NetCE, a medical education company that needs physician authors on a per manuscript basis
- Sarah Campbell at NetCE can be contacted using this email address development@netce.com
Summary
Dr. Sue Zimmerman provides a great model for planning your career transition, particularly as you approach your “retirement” years. You may want to start by engaging a career coach long before beginning your search. Then identify your strengths, weaknesses, vision, and interests.
Network with colleagues. Seek out pertinent professional organizations that offer support, networking, training, or certification in the fields you are considering. And consider pursuing several part-time jobs rather than one full-time position that doesn't meet your needs.
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How to Be Happy Writing, Teaching and Limiting Clinical - A PNC Classic from 2018
Interview with Dr. Sue Zimmermann - 366
Jurica: Dr. Sue Zimmermann, thank you for joining me today on The PNC Podcast.
Zimmermann: Sure, glad to be here.
Jurica: I want to set the stage for our conversation today. I love interviewing guests who have made a complete transition to a non-clinical career, or those who have been able to balance a clinical career with a non-clinical career. And from what I know, you've been able to do that pretty successfully. So, I really thank you for joining us today.
Zimmermann: Yes, thank you.
Jurica: So, I know a little bit about your background. And I'm going to actually have prior to our conversation an introduction that talks a little bit about your educational background and so forth. And I know you're an orthopedic surgeon, but why don't you talk about your background a little bit and give us sort of the short version. And talk about your clinical work. And then maybe at that point we'll kind of transition into your non-clinical work?
Zimmermann: Alright. So, I'm an orthopedic surgeon. I was in practice full-time for 24 years. I worked for a big multi-specialty group. And one of the things about working for the group is I was planning to retire in a couple of years. And approaching that, I started to think about what I wanted to do after retirement. And I wanted to do something that was not clinical and sort of pursue my passions, if you will. So, I started that process about two years ago. I started working with a coach. Her name is Heather Fork and she is a physician who coaches other physicians.
I actually found her through going on a Listserv with the American Association of Women's Surgeons and I got a few recommendations for coaches. And I interviewed them before I chose one. And I found it very helpful to get others' recommendations, and then also just get a feel for what the coaches were like when I was talking to them. And I think that it was very valuable to me because number one, it helped me to identify my strengths and my desires of what I wanted to be doing. And the coach was also a wealth of information about different careers. I think that until you start exploring, you really don't know what options there are out there for you as a physician. And I found that there are many, many options for careers having been a physician.
So, that was very helpful. So, that was how I sort of started my journey. And I found that it was also very helpful to start doing things outside of my clinical work while I was still doing clinical work. Sort of as a preparation but also to see what I liked. I had always thought about teaching. I was not working in an academic center, but I did have the chance occasionally to work with physician assistant students in the clinic. So, I was interested in teaching and I saw a volunteer opportunity at a local medical school at Boston University to do a weekly class with second year medical students. And these involved working with a small group of six or seven students and doing case reviews. So, it was case-based learning.
And so, I did that for a couple semesters and I found that I really loved it. So, that affirmed my belief that I was interested in going into teaching. And, you know, other things that I identified and variant to wellness and especially to bone health and osteoporosis treatment. So, I'd started to cultivate that part of my practice. And so, I did some reading. I didn't go to any formal courses, but I did spend some time with a colleague who is an expert in that field learning about osteoporosis care. And I started treating some osteoporosis patients, which I found was very rewarding. So, as I started to approach retirement, I looked for things that I found rewarding within my clinical work as well as things that were outside the clinical work.
Jurica: Again, I�ll jump in here. This is very interesting. I think you're the first person that I've talked to that has really sort of stepped back, started planning. I mean, many of us plan for so-called retirement or transition. But I think you're the first person I've talked to that's actually engaged a coach. You knew what you were doing. You had checked and gotten some references or at least a list off the website you described. And I do know that coach personally and she definitely can not only help with the motivation and the soul-searching and the planning, but she knows a lot about a lot of clinical careers and she has contacts with people in various places, too. So, that was really an outstanding maneuver on your part to get started in that way.
Zimmermann: Yes. Yes, that was extremely helpful. And it also ... I think it also made me more prepared. I think it's hard to just leave medicine without having any kind of direction. So, it was really good for me to have some direction before I left.
Jurica: Absolutely.
Zimmermann: Another thing that I started doing with Heather's advice and connections was working for a board review company. I was also interested in writing. So, I started working for a company doing writing and editing board review questions. And again, I found that it was enjoyable. I enjoyed researching the questions. I liked writing them. I felt like I was using a lot of my knowledge and skills but in a different way. So, that was another thing that I started doing while I was still practicing.
Jurica: So, where are you now in terms of the mix of clinical and non-clinical? Because I think during our prep for this you talked about taking on a different type of clinical responsibility recently.
Zimmermann: Yes, yes. So, I actually ... I left my clinical practice and I guess about a year and a half ago now. I was actually laid off, which was somewhat of a surprise. And so, I took some time off and I looked at different other clinical opportunities. I didn't want to jump right into full-time practice again. So, I looked into some different things there. And one thing that I was interested in again is with wellness and working, you know, working with population who's trying to get better.
One of my former co-workers is now the Medical Director at MIT at the Medical Department there. And so, I approached her about opportunities there. And it just so happened that last fall they had one of their providers leave, so they were looking for someone part-time to do non-operative outpatient orthopedics.
And that suited me perfectly because I didn't want to go back to full-time practice. But I find that I do like seeing patients. And so, I started doing that in March and it's been very enjoyable. I take care of students, faculty, staff, families of staff, and retirees. So, I'm still taking care of a broad range of patients. I do miss surgery somewhat, but I don't miss the stress that's associated with surgery. I don't miss the nights and the weekends. And working part-time gives me the opportunity to continue with teaching and writing, which are two other things that I really like.
Jurica: That sounds really, really good. Like a good mix and, you know, maybe you'll do some fine-tuning. But this sounds like a pretty decent lifestyle for anybody, you know, that's looking to kind of shift a little bit out from the heavy burden of clinical medicine and the being on call and so forth. So, that's been great.
Well, then, let's kind of step back a little bit. If I were to come to you today and say, "You know, I like the idea of writing those test questions and editing." Can you give any specific advice to someone who might want to pursue that particular aspect of non-clinical activities?
Zimmermann: Yes, absolutely. One of the things that I did was I took an online medical writing course. It was ... It's given by the University of Wisconsin. And it was great because it was a six-week course. It was very inexpensive. And it was Introduction to Medical Writing. And basically, it told a lot about the opportunities that are out there for medical writers. So, it was a very good resource, first of all. And so, it also sort of helps you decide whether that's something you want to do. Like I said, I started working for the first company while I was still in practice. And I found that I wasn't getting a lot of work from them, so I actually switched to another company at the end of last year. And I'm getting a lot more work with this company.
And, actually, I found both of these opportunities through Heather Fork, through my coach. Both of them involved having to put in an application with the CD. And then I had to give them some samples of medical writing. So, they had me write sample questions or, you know, as in a board review type of question. And they ... Both of them were similar. They would give you a format for the question and how to write the question and do an explanation and use references. So, you have to ... It's kind of like an audition process. You have to submit a sample of your writing. One of them asked for a second sample and then I made the cut. And when I became employed with them.
Jurica: Oh, that's excellent. Have you discovered any other sources of those kind of jobs in recent months?
Zimmermann: One thing you see, the DOC, the Drop Out Club, I think a lot of people probably know that website and that who subscribe to it. And you will get a listing of job opportunities on their website. And they often have those kinds of opportunities. Some of, you know, some of the jobs are full-time work. But a lot of them are ... Use remote part-time kinds of jobs.
Jurica: Nice. How is the payment for writing those kinds of ... Is it an hourly? Is it on a per number of questions? How does that work out exactly?
Zimmermann: That's a good question. They ... Both companies would pay by the question. So, I would submit a series of questions and then submit an invoice. And then they pay you for the questions that you submit.
Jurica: And these questions are going to be used for what again? Maybe I missed that.
Zimmermann: Well, for ... Right now, I'm writing for the Physician Assistant Board Review. So, they have a question bank for the ... I guess they're called the PANCE and the PANRE exams for physician assistants. It's the Physician Assistant National Certifying Exam and Physician Assistant National Recertifying Exam. So, they're questions for the PA Review for their certification exams. Some of them are for medical students. Some are geared toward step one of the boards. Others, step two. It depends on their needs, you know, the company's needs. So, they want you to write for that specific audience.
Jurica: That's kind of like you said, it's board prep. I think that I've got something like that for family medicine. And it's kind of vignette cases and then, you know, evidence-based answers and so forth. And they're very helpful. I think it's probably better to study with the questions than to read a textbook or something like that.
Zimmermann: Oh, yes. Absolutely. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jurica: You know, I think I'm going to take this opportunity to give another resource out there. Kind of just coincidental. I was just talking to somebody from a company called NetCE. It's at netce.com. And I've been an editor for them for about 12 years and I was just asking one of the people that work there if they need people to write or submit manuscripts. Because they produce a written type of CME. So, I thought, "Well, I'll plug them right now." So, there's an email ... I'll put it in the show notes, but it's the NetCE.com is where you can find the CME activities themselves to give those people in the audience who might be writers. But there's all kinds of opportunities like this so I'll put that in the show notes and that'll be one more that they can access as they're looking for writing opportunities.
So, anything else about the writing side you want to tell us about?
Zimmermann: Not really. I like it because it's from home. I can do it when I have time. So, some weeks I do a lot, and some weeks I don't do much. But there are some deadlines, but they're pretty relaxed deadlines. So, I don't feel ... I feel like I can do as much or as little as I want, which is really, really nice.
Jurica: So, now what about the teaching side? And now I think you said you are teaching ... Are you teaching PA students now?
Zimmermann: Yes, yes. So, I'll tell you about how that came about. So, I had started to do the volunteering with medical students and I was interested in doing more. And Heather actually connected me with one of her former clients who is an emergency room physician. And he is now the Director of the PA School at Northeastern University. So, I met with him and I spent a day with him kind of shadowing him and also talking about what he did. And he suggested to me that I contact the schools in the area. I live in the Boston area, so there's a lot of medical schools and PA schools. And he suggested I contact schools and just say, do you, you know, ask if they needed someone to teach orthopedic.
And so, I actually contacted Boston University, which is where I do the volunteering. And it turns out that they did need someone to do their orthopedic module. And it also turned out that the Director of the school is another former colleague of mine. Which it so happens basically what they did is gave me a syllabus of what the students needed to learn. It was four hours on four separate days of instruction. So, it was both lectures and hands on teaching physical diagnosis to students. And basically, I had 16 hours to teach the entire field of orthopedics. So, ...
Jurica: Oh, you could do that, can't you?
Zimmermann: Yeah. So ... Like trying to teach the history of the world in a week or something like that. So, I spent quite a bit of time preparing for the lectures. You know, I made my own slides and my own lectures. And having worked with PAs in the clinic and having done some teaching in the clinic, I know what PAs need to know and I wanted to teach them what I thought my PAs should know as someone who worked with me. What I would want them to know. And so, I first taught the class in December of last year. And that was ... I taught that to second year students. And they actually changed the schedule and moved the orthopedic module up to first year, so I taught the class again to the first-year students in January of this year. And I'm going to be teaching it again in this coming January.
And I really enjoyed it. It's ... PA school's a nice setting because the classes are smaller. So, you have 25 to 30 students instead of, you know, maybe a hundred, 150 students like in med school. And so, you get to be a little bit more interactive and students can ask you questions during the class. You can have a little bit more discussion with them. So, I really, really enjoyed that. And then throughout the year I've done various things. You know, I helped with the anatomy class. I helped with the dissections. I gave a couple of anatomy lectures when they needed me. So, I've been able to do some things throughout the year. And that's been very rewarding and very fun. I've really enjoyed that a lot. Teaching is a lot of work. You have to do a lot of prep work and evaluating the students. But it is just incredibly rewarding.
Jurica: Now, do you think that this could be something that pretty much any specialty could look into? Are there some specialties that they seem to need more of or can't find people to help them out?
Zimmermann: Well, I don't know about certain specialties, but I know that they're always looking. I think a lot of times in medical schools they might be more set, in terms of their faculty. And what I've heard about nursing schools is that nurses� schools, they like to have nurses teach their courses. I don't know if that's really true, but that's what I've heard. But PA schools seems like a great opportunity because they have to learn a lot of information in a short amount of time. The students, you know, they only have one Didactic year or maybe a year and a half of Didactic. And they have to learn nearly all of the same information that medical students do. So, I think they, you know, they're always looking for people. So, that's kind of a good way to get an entry into teaching.
And I think it just depends if ... You know, they do have to learn all the topics. You know, they have to learn all the different specialties. OB-GYN, pediatrics, trauma care, ER, orthopedics. So, I would think that any specialty would be able to find some opportunities there.
Jurica: Very interesting. So, probably like a lot of teaching, that first year if you're sort of developing or writing the curriculum least for your particular presentation, it's a little bit more work. But then the subsequent years would typically be a lot easier I would suppose.
Zimmermann: Yes. Yes, you'd just have to fine-tune some of the things.
Jurica: As far as the compensation of the teaching versus let's say the writing.
Zimmermann: Yeah, it's actually similar, you know, in terms of hourly work. I think that the ... You know, if you look at how long it takes to write a question, it probably takes me, you know, an hour or so to research and write the questions. So, on an hourly basis, probably pretty similar. You're certainly going to earn a lot more doing clinical work. Which is one of the reasons why I decided to go back to clinical part-time. Because you're always going to earn more doing clinical work. I sort of was able to take the things I liked about clinical work and have those things without the things I didn't like, like being on call.
Jurica: Right. It can obviously be a bit of a trade-off. Sometimes I like to remind the listeners that, you know, if you're procedures and you're making a pretty good living, obviously ... But there's a lot of things that go with that, like you said. Being on call and really, how many hours are you putting in during that week? Is it really 50? Or is more like 70 or 80? And so, [crosstalk 00:20:38] it won't compare exactly, but the lifestyle's usually much better.
Zimmermann: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.
Jurica: Alright. So, that's where you are now then, right? You're doing the writing, you're doing some teaching. Sounds like the teaching is a little sporadic. It's not as continuous as maybe the writing can be if you, you know, just sit down and write more consistently. That sounds about ... Am I getting that correct?
Zimmermann: Yes, yes. The teaching is ... So, I had some, you know, more intense time in January and then I did a few couple weeks of the anatomy in June. And then a few things sporadically throughout the year. So, it's not a steady thing. I think that there are opportunities, say, if you were going to be more of a full-time faculty or an administrative role in a PA school. For example, the woman who runs the school, she's a physician but she basically runs the whole program and she's a full-time person. So, there are those type of opportunities, but you're going to be doing a lot of administrative things. And I really didn't want to do any of the administrative work.
Jurica: Right, right. But in any kind of non-clinical area that you enter into, there's often times opportunities to take a more of a management or leadership role because physicians are often seen as leaders. So, that's another thing to keep in mind.
Zimmermann: Yes, yes. And there are lots of those opportunities. And I think that ... And they need good people to do it. They need people who are enthusiastic and knowledgeable. So, I think that there's a lot of roles. I mean, I read one of your recent podcasts and basically the physician had said that they were taking a role that nobody wanted, but they made something good out of it.
Jurica: Right, exactly. So, you�ve got to keep your eyes open for those opportunities. So, well, maybe if you were to step back and just look at the process you've gone through over the last few years and maybe you could be a mentor for some other physicians who are thinking about making a shift. What kind of advice, you know, just kind of putting everything together, would you give them in terms of the steps to take over the next six to 12 months or so?
Zimmermann: Well, my advice would be first of all, start some self-exploration. And again, for me, using a coach was really critical to the process. I think that it's often very helpful to have somebody outside of your self helping you make ... You know, helping you think about things. And also, giving you information that you might not easily get yourself. The other thing is exploring before you retire or leave medicine or whatever. You know, there is things you can start doing on a volunteer basis or on a, you know, very part-time basis. You ... It doesn't take that long, it doesn't take that much time. But you can do it maybe a couple hours a week just to sort of start thinking about what you might want to do and see if it excites you. See what you're passionate about and see what you might want to do later on. Those would be my two things. Is start preparing early and also, have a coach.
Another thing is look for opportunities within your specialty. Again, for me the bone health was very rewarding. I also ... I'm also very interesting in pediatric work, pediatrics, so I started cultivating that part of my craft as ... Even, you know, if you're feeling burnt out or unhappy in your practice, there are ways to make it more interesting and more enjoyable.
Jurica: Yeah. Probably find a lot of examples of physicians who have stayed within their specialty, done clinical, but you know, they focused down on something they're really interested in or they're really good at. Something that's maybe less intense but yet rewarding. So, I mean, that's really good advice.
Zimmermann: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.
Jurica: Well, I think we've kind of covered things pretty well here today. This has been really good conversation. It really gives people a lot of hope. And that with a little planning, a little introspection, and looking around possibly using a coach, there's still plenty for physicians to do out there that can bring them balance and happiness and fulfillment. And so that's very inspiring.
Zimmermann: Well, thank you. Thank you very much. It was ... I enjoyed speaking with you.
Jurica: Alright. I know that some of our listeners are going to want to at least maybe get to know you a little better or possibly reach out to you. Some of my guests will use LinkedIn or other sources. What do you think? Would that be an appropriate way to get in touch with you?
Zimmermann: Yes. I have a LinkedIn profile. It's Sue Zimmermann. And I'd be happy to connect with people if you have questions or recommendations.
Jurica: Awesome. So, I'll also put a link. I think I can go to LinkedIn and get the actual link to your profile. And then there'll be more information and they can always try and connect with you and interact that way. So, that would be great. We'll have to catch up with you maybe a year or two down the road and see what's going on.
Zimmermann: Okay.
Jurica: Sounds like you might be looking into something other things.
Zimmermann: Yes, may be.
Jurica: Alright, Sue, thank you so much for joining me today. I really enjoyed it and I know the listeners will get a lot out of it. So, I thank you again for being here.
Zimmermann: Alright. You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Jurica: Okay. Bye-bye.
Zimmermann: Goodbye.
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How to Be Happy Writing, Teaching and Limiting Clinical - A PNC Classic from 2018
Interview with Dr. Sue Zimmermann - 366
Jurica: Dr. Sue Zimmermann, thank you for joining me today on The PNC Podcast.
Zimmermann: Sure, glad to be here.
Jurica: I want to set the stage for our conversation today. I love interviewing guests who have made a complete transition to a non-clinical career, or those who have been able to balance a clinical career with a non-clinical career. And from what I know, you've been able to do that pretty successfully. So, I really thank you for joining us today.
Zimmermann: Yes, thank you.
Jurica: So, I know a little bit about your background. And I'm going to actually have prior to our conversation an introduction that talks a little bit about your educational background and so forth. And I know you're an orthopedic surgeon, but why don't you talk about your background a little bit and give us sort of the short version. And talk about your clinical work. And then maybe at that point we'll kind of transition into your non-clinical work?
Zimmermann: Alright. So, I'm an orthopedic surgeon. I was in practice full-time for 24 years. I worked for a big multi-specialty group. And one of the things about working for the group is I was planning to retire in a couple of years. And approaching that, I started to think about what I wanted to do after retirement. And I wanted to do something that was not clinical and sort of pursue my passions, if you will. So, I started that process about two years ago. I started working with a coach. Her name is Heather Fork and she is a physician who coaches other physicians.
I actually found her through going on a Listserv with the American Association of Women's Surgeons and I got a few recommendations for coaches. And I interviewed them before I chose one. And I found it very helpful to get others' recommendations, and then also just get a feel for what the coaches were like when I was talking to them. And I think that it was very valuable to me because number one, it helped me to identify my strengths and my desires of what I wanted to be doing. And the coach was also a wealth of information about different careers. I think that until you start exploring, you really don't know what options there are out there for you as a physician. And I found that there are many, many options for careers having been a physician.
So, that was very helpful. So, that was how I sort of started my journey. And I found that it was also very helpful to start doing things outside of my clinical work while I was still doing clinical work. Sort of as a preparation but also to see what I liked. I had always thought about teaching. I was not working in an academic center, but I did have the chance occasionally to work with physician assistant students in the clinic. So, I was interested in teaching and I saw a volunteer opportunity at a local medical school at Boston University to do a weekly class with second year medical students. And these involved working with a small group of six or seven students and doing case reviews. So, it was case-based learning.
And so, I did that for a couple semesters and I found that I really loved it. So, that affirmed my belief that I was interested in going into teaching. And, you know, other things that I identified and variant to wellness and especially to bone health and osteoporosis treatment. So, I'd started to cultivate that part of my practice. And so, I did some reading. I didn't go to any formal courses, but I did spend some time with a colleague who is an expert in that field learning about osteoporosis care. And I started treating some osteoporosis patients, which I found was very rewarding. So, as I started to approach retirement, I looked for things that I found rewarding within my clinical work as well as things that were outside the clinical work.
Jurica: Again, I�ll jump in here. This is very interesting. I think you're the first person that I've talked to that has really sort of stepped back, started planning. I mean, many of us plan for so-called retirement or transition. But I think you're the first person I've talked to that's actually engaged a coach. You knew what you were doing. You had checked and gotten some references or at least a list off the website you described. And I do know that coach personally and she definitely can not only help with the motivation and the soul-searching and the planning, but she knows a lot about a lot of clinical careers and she has contacts with people in various places, too. So, that was really an outstanding maneuver on your part to get started in that way.
Zimmermann: Yes. Yes, that was extremely helpful. And it also ... I think it also made me more prepared. I think it's hard to just leave medicine without having any kind of direction. So, it was really good for me to have some direction before I left.
Jurica: Absolutely.
Zimmermann: Another thing that I started doing with Heather's advice and connections was working for a board review company. I was also interested in writing. So, I started working for a company doing writing and editing board review questions. And again, I found that it was enjoyable. I enjoyed researching the questions. I liked writing them. I felt like I was using a lot of my knowledge and skills but in a different way. So, that was another thing that I started doing while I was still practicing.
Jurica: So, where are you now in terms of the mix of clinical and non-clinical? Because I think during our prep for this you talked about taking on a different type of clinical responsibility recently.
Zimmermann: Yes, yes. So, I actually ... I left my clinical practice and I guess about a year and a half ago now. I was actually laid off, which was somewhat of a surprise. And so, I took some time off and I looked at different other clinical opportunities. I didn't want to jump right into full-time practice again. So, I looked into some different things there. And one thing that I was interested in again is with wellness and working, you know, working with population who's trying to get better.
One of my former co-workers is now the Medical Director at MIT at the Medical Department there. And so, I approached her about opportunities there. And it just so happened that last fall they had one of their providers leave, so they were looking for someone part-time to do non-operative outpatient orthopedics.
And that suited me perfectly because I didn't want to go back to full-time practice. But I find that I do like seeing patients. And so, I started doing that in March and it's been very enjoyable. I take care of students, faculty, staff, families of staff, and retirees. So, I'm still taking care of a broad range of patients. I do miss surgery somewhat, but I don't miss the stress that's associated with surgery. I don't miss the nights and the weekends. And working part-time gives me the opportunity to continue with teaching and writing, which are two other things that I really like.
Jurica: That sounds really, really good. Like a good mix and, you know, maybe you'll do some fine-tuning. But this sounds like a pretty decent lifestyle for anybody, you know, that's looking to kind of shift a little bit out from the heavy burden of clinical medicine and the being on call and so forth. So, that's been great.
Well, then, let's kind of step back a little bit. If I were to come to you today and say, "You know, I like the idea of writing those test questions and editing." Can you give any specific advice to someone who might want to pursue that particular aspect of non-clinical activities?
Zimmermann: Yes, absolutely. One of the things that I did was I took an online medical writing course. It was ... It's given by the University of Wisconsin. And it was great because it was a six-week course. It was very inexpensive. And it was Introduction to Medical Writing. And basically, it told a lot about the opportunities that are out there for medical writers. So, it was a very good resource, first of all. And so, it also sort of helps you decide whether that's something you want to do. Like I said, I started working for the first company while I was still in practice. And I found that I wasn't getting a lot of work from them, so I actually switched to another company at the end of last year. And I'm getting a lot more work with this company.
And, actually, I found both of these opportunities through Heather Fork, through my coach. Both of them involved having to put in an application with the CD. And then I had to give them some samples of medical writing. So, they had me write sample questions or, you know, as in a board review type of question. And they ... Both of them were similar. They would give you a format for the question and how to write the question and do an explanation and use references. So, you have to ... It's kind of like an audition process. You have to submit a sample of your writing. One of them asked for a second sample and then I made the cut. And when I became employed with them.
Jurica: Oh, that's excellent. Have you discovered any other sources of those kind of jobs in recent months?
Zimmermann: One thing you see, the DOC, the Drop Out Club, I think a lot of people probably know that website and that who subscribe to it. And you will get a listing of job opportunities on their website. And they often have those kinds of opportunities. Some of, you know, some of the jobs are full-time work. But a lot of them are ... Use remote part-time kinds of jobs.
Jurica: Nice. How is the payment for writing those kinds of ... Is it an hourly? Is it on a per number of questions? How does that work out exactly?
Zimmermann: That's a good question. They ... Both companies would pay by the question. So, I would submit a series of questions and then submit an invoice. And then they pay you for the questions that you submit.
Jurica: And these questions are going to be used for what again? Maybe I missed that.
Zimmermann: Well, for ... Right now, I'm writing for the Physician Assistant Board Review. So, they have a question bank for the ... I guess they're called the PANCE and the PANRE exams for physician assistants. It's the Physician Assistant National Certifying Exam and Physician Assistant National Recertifying Exam. So, they're questions for the PA Review for their certification exams. Some of them are for medical students. Some are geared toward step one of the boards. Others, step two. It depends on their needs, you know, the company's needs. So, they want you to write for that specific audience.
Jurica: That's kind of like you said, it's board prep. I think that I've got something like that for family medicine. And it's kind of vignette cases and then, you know, evidence-based answers and so forth. And they're very helpful. I think it's probably better to study with the questions than to read a textbook or something like that.
Zimmermann: Oh, yes. Absolutely. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jurica: You know, I think I'm going to take this opportunity to give another resource out there. Kind of just coincidental. I was just talking to somebody from a company called NetCE. It's at netce.com. And I've been an editor for them for about 12 years and I was just asking one of the people that work there if they need people to write or submit manuscripts. Because they produce a written type of CME. So, I thought, "Well, I'll plug them right now." So, there's an email ... I'll put it in the show notes, but it's the NetCE.com is where you can find the CME activities themselves to give those people in the audience who might be writers. But there's all kinds of opportunities like this so I'll put that in the show notes and that'll be one more that they can access as they're looking for writing opportunities.
So, anything else about the writing side you want to tell us about?
Zimmermann: Not really. I like it because it's from home. I can do it when I have time. So, some weeks I do a lot, and some weeks I don't do much. But there are some deadlines, but they're pretty relaxed deadlines. So, I don't feel ... I feel like I can do as much or as little as I want, which is really, really nice.
Jurica: So, now what about the teaching side? And now I think you said you are teaching ... Are you teaching PA students now?
Zimmermann: Yes, yes. So, I'll tell you about how that came about. So, I had started to do the volunteering with medical students and I was interested in doing more. And Heather actually connected me with one of her former clients who is an emergency room physician. And he is now the Director of the PA School at Northeastern University. So, I met with him and I spent a day with him kind of shadowing him and also talking about what he did. And he suggested to me that I contact the schools in the area. I live in the Boston area, so there's a lot of medical schools and PA schools. And he suggested I contact schools and just say, do you, you know, ask if they needed someone to teach orthopedic.
And so, I actually contacted Boston University, which is where I do the volunteering. And it turns out that they did need someone to do their orthopedic module. And it also turned out that the Director of the school is another former colleague of mine. Which it so happens basically what they did is gave me a syllabus of what the students needed to learn. It was four hours on four separate days of instruction. So, it was both lectures and hands on teaching physical diagnosis to students. And basically, I had 16 hours to teach the entire field of orthopedics. So, ...
Jurica: Oh, you could do that, can't you?
Zimmermann: Yeah. So ... Like trying to teach the history of the world in a week or something like that. So, I spent quite a bit of time preparing for the lectures. You know, I made my own slides and my own lectures. And having worked with PAs in the clinic and having done some teaching in the clinic, I know what PAs need to know and I wanted to teach them what I thought my PAs should know as someone who worked with me. What I would want them to know. And so, I first taught the class in December of last year. And that was ... I taught that to second year students. And they actually changed the schedule and moved the orthopedic module up to first year, so I taught the class again to the first-year students in January of this year. And I'm going to be teaching it again in this coming January.
And I really enjoyed it. It's ... PA school's a nice setting because the classes are smaller. So, you have 25 to 30 students instead of, you know, maybe a hundred, 150 students like in med school. And so, you get to be a little bit more interactive and students can ask you questions during the class. You can have a little bit more discussion with them. So, I really, really enjoyed that. And then throughout the year I've done various things. You know, I helped with the anatomy class. I helped with the dissections. I gave a couple of anatomy lectures when they needed me. So, I've been able to do some things throughout the year. And that's been very rewarding and very fun. I've really enjoyed that a lot. Teaching is a lot of work. You have to do a lot of prep work and evaluating the students. But it is just incredibly rewarding.
Jurica: Now, do you think that this could be something that pretty much any specialty could look into? Are there some specialties that they seem to need more of or can't find people to help them out?
Zimmermann: Well, I don't know about certain specialties, but I know that they're always looking. I think a lot of times in medical schools they might be more set, in terms of their faculty. And what I've heard about nursing schools is that nurses� schools, they like to have nurses teach their courses. I don't know if that's really true, but that's what I've heard. But PA schools seems like a great opportunity because they have to learn a lot of information in a short amount of time. The students, you know, they only have one Didactic year or maybe a year and a half of Didactic. And they have to learn nearly all of the same information that medical students do. So, I think they, you know, they're always looking for people. So, that's kind of a good way to get an entry into teaching.
And I think it just depends if ... You know, they do have to learn all the topics. You know, they have to learn all the different specialties. OB-GYN, pediatrics, trauma care, ER, orthopedics. So, I would think that any specialty would be able to find some opportunities there.
Jurica: Very interesting. So, probably like a lot of teaching, that first year if you're sort of developing or writing the curriculum least for your particular presentation, it's a little bit more work. But then the subsequent years would typically be a lot easier I would suppose.
Zimmermann: Yes. Yes, you'd just have to fine-tune some of the things.
Jurica: As far as the compensation of the teaching versus let's say the writing.
Zimmermann: Yeah, it's actually similar, you know, in terms of hourly work. I think that the ... You know, if you look at how long it takes to write a question, it probably takes me, you know, an hour or so to research and write the questions. So, on an hourly basis, probably pretty similar. You're certainly going to earn a lot more doing clinical work. Which is one of the reasons why I decided to go back to clinical part-time. Because you're always going to earn more doing clinical work. I sort of was able to take the things I liked about clinical work and have those things without the things I didn't like, like being on call.
Jurica: Right. It can obviously be a bit of a trade-off. Sometimes I like to remind the listeners that, you know, if you're procedures and you're making a pretty good living, obviously ... But there's a lot of things that go with that, like you said. Being on call and really, how many hours are you putting in during that week? Is it really 50? Or is more like 70 or 80? And so, [crosstalk 00:20:38] it won't compare exactly, but the lifestyle's usually much better.
Zimmermann: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.
Jurica: Alright. So, that's where you are now then, right? You're doing the writing, you're doing some teaching. Sounds like the teaching is a little sporadic. It's not as continuous as maybe the writing can be if you, you know, just sit down and write more consistently. That sounds about ... Am I getting that correct?
Zimmermann: Yes, yes. The teaching is ... So, I had some, you know, more intense time in January and then I did a few couple weeks of the anatomy in June. And then a few things sporadically throughout the year. So, it's not a steady thing. I think that there are opportunities, say, if you were going to be more of a full-time faculty or an administrative role in a PA school. For example, the woman who runs the school, she's a physician but she basically runs the whole program and she's a full-time person. So, there are those type of opportunities, but you're going to be doing a lot of administrative things. And I really didn't want to do any of the administrative work.
Jurica: Right, right. But in any kind of non-clinical area that you enter into, there's often times opportunities to take a more of a management or leadership role because physicians are often seen as leaders. So, that's another thing to keep in mind.
Zimmermann: Yes, yes. And there are lots of those opportunities. And I think that ... And they need good people to do it. They need people who are enthusiastic and knowledgeable. So, I think that there's a lot of roles. I mean, I read one of your recent podcasts and basically the physician had said that they were taking a role that nobody wanted, but they made something good out of it.
Jurica: Right, exactly. So, you�ve got to keep your eyes open for those opportunities. So, well, maybe if you were to step back and just look at the process you've gone through over the last few years and maybe you could be a mentor for some other physicians who are thinking about making a shift. What kind of advice, you know, just kind of putting everything together, would you give them in terms of the steps to take over the next six to 12 months or so?
Zimmermann: Well, my advice would be first of all, start some self-exploration. And again, for me, using a coach was really critical to the process. I think that it's often very helpful to have somebody outside of your self helping you make ... You know, helping you think about things. And also, giving you information that you might not easily get yourself. The other thing is exploring before you retire or leave medicine or whatever. You know, there is things you can start doing on a volunteer basis or on a, you know, very part-time basis. You ... It doesn't take that long, it doesn't take that much time. But you can do it maybe a couple hours a week just to sort of start thinking about what you might want to do and see if it excites you. See what you're passionate about and see what you might want to do later on. Those would be my two things. Is start preparing early and also, have a coach.
Another thing is look for opportunities within your specialty. Again, for me the bone health was very rewarding. I also ... I'm also very interesting in pediatric work, pediatrics, so I started cultivating that part of my craft as ... Even, you know, if you're feeling burnt out or unhappy in your practice, there are ways to make it more interesting and more enjoyable.
Jurica: Yeah. Probably find a lot of examples of physicians who have stayed within their specialty, done clinical, but you know, they focused down on something they're really interested in or they're really good at. Something that's maybe less intense but yet rewarding. So, I mean, that's really good advice.
Zimmermann: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.
Jurica: Well, I think we've kind of covered things pretty well here today. This has been really good conversation. It really gives people a lot of hope. And that with a little planning, a little introspection, and looking around possibly using a coach, there's still plenty for physicians to do out there that can bring them balance and happiness and fulfillment. And so that's very inspiring.
Zimmermann: Well, thank you. Thank you very much. It was ... I enjoyed speaking with you.
Jurica: Alright. I know that some of our listeners are going to want to at least maybe get to know you a little better or possibly reach out to you. Some of my guests will use LinkedIn or other sources. What do you think? Would that be an appropriate way to get in touch with you?
Zimmermann: Yes. I have a LinkedIn profile. It's Sue Zimmermann. And I'd be happy to connect with people if you have questions or recommendations.
Jurica: Awesome. So, I'll also put a link. I think I can go to LinkedIn and get the actual link to your profile. And then there'll be more information and they can always try and connect with you and interact that way. So, that would be great. We'll have to catch up with you maybe a year or two down the road and see what's going on.
Zimmermann: Okay.
Jurica: Sounds like you might be looking into something other things.
Zimmermann: Yes, may be.
Jurica: Alright, Sue, thank you so much for joining me today. I really enjoyed it and I know the listeners will get a lot out of it. So, I thank you again for being here.
Zimmermann: Alright. You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Jurica: Okay. Bye-bye.
Zimmermann: Goodbye.
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