In this week's Classic Podcast Episode from 2020, Dr. Jennifer Spector describes how to become a medical editor. Unlike other medical editors who spent years as a paid medical writer, Jennifer parlayed her involvement in a professional society and unpaid writing to land her new editor position.

Jennifer is a Board-Certified Podiatric Physician and Surgeon with 14 years of clinical experience. She spent over 5 years in national leadership positions at the American Association for Women Podiatrists (AAWP). She’s had a long-term interest in education, writing, and consulting. She is passionate about educating others. In June 2019, she became the Associate Editor for Podiatry Today.

She received her DPM degree from the Temple University School of Podiatric Medicine. Then she completed a three-year residency in podiatric medicine at Christian Care Health System.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

How to Become a Medical Editor

Medical writing and editing are great careers. They come in various arrangements: freelancing or employment; working remotely or in an office; technical, journalistic, or educational. And there are positions open to physicians of all backgrounds.

After completing her residency, Jennifer spent several years building her practice. She later volunteered at the American Association for Women Podiatrists. She chaired several committees. Then she held several leadership positions, becoming President of the organization in 2018.

There are so many things that we might have dipped our toes into in clinical practice without realizing how they can apply outside of actual practice. – Dr. Jennifer Spector

While at the AAWP she was responsible for writing and editing the newsletter and other documents. That experience enabled her to land her position as Associate Editor for Podiatry Today.

After working in that position for about 20 months, Jennifer was promoted to Senior Editor followed by Managing Editor at Podiatry Today. In July of 2022, she became one of the Assistant Editorial Directors at HMP Global, the parent company of Podiatry Today and a market leader in international healthcare education and clinician engagement.

Finding Editing Jobs

Today’s conversation with Jennifer clarified her process to become a medical editor for a news journal like Podiatry Today. Jennifer reminds us to develop a portfolio of writing and editing samples to share with prospective employers. She was able to do this while volunteering with the AAWP.

If you’re looking for freelance writing opportunities, you should look at the portfolio of journals published by the parent company of Podiatry Today, HMP Global. There are 12 journals and over 100 Online Digital and Learning Networks under its umbrella.

Summary

In today's interview, we learned what it takes to become a medical editor. This is often a natural step for established writers to pursue.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Jennifer Spector's LinkedIn Page
• Podiatry Today
• HMP GLOBAL
• AAWP
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit (Use Coupon Code 30-OFF)
• The Nonclinical Career Academy

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The post How to Become a Medical Editor – A PNC Classic from 2020 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This week John spends a few minutes sharing his thoughts on one of three popular full-time careers when preparing to “level up.”

Today John delves into the idea of “leveling up”- a journey of self-improvement that can lead you to a more satisfying and financially rewarding career. Drawing inspiration from professional athletes and attorneys he shares how to take stock of your strengths, identify areas for growth, and set new goals to help you become the best version of yourself.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Three Most Popular Full-time Careers for Physicians Seeking a Change

Suppose you’re a physician considering a career shift. In that case, John highlights three nonclinical roles that might be perfect for you: hospital Chief Medical Officer (CMO), pharma Medical Science Liaison (MSL), and insurance company Utilization Management (UM) Medical Director. These roles offer improved work-life balance, competitive pay, and full-time opportunities with major organizations. John describes each popular full-time career and how you can smoothly transition.

Your Network is Your Net Worth: Resources to Help You Succeed

Transitioning to a new career isn’t just about what you know, it’s also about who you know. In this section, Dr. John reminds us of the importance of building a strong professional network and leveraging resources like LinkedIn, the American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL), and the MSL Society. He also recommends joining online communities like the Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook group, where you can connect with others who’ve made similar transitions and get advice on your next steps.

Summary

Sometimes it makes sense to level up your career to one that offers better pay and work-life balance. The three options described today have demonstrated that they generally meet those goals. If you're looking for full-time employment in a well-established industry John advises you to consider one of these popular options. 

Links for Today's Episode:

• How to Become CMO in a Year – 052
• 4 Things the CMO Should Never Say to the CEO – 251
• Hospital Management Career Bundle Tactics to Quickly Prepare for a Hospital Management Job
• Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job
• Complete the Journey to Your First Fabulous MSL Job – 277
• Build a Rewarding Career as an MSL – Use Coupon Code HALFOFF to purchase for only $198
• How To Secure Your First Utilization Management Job
• The Truth About Medical Specialists and UM Jobs
• American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL)
• Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook Group
• MSL Society
• Check out the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit to learn about MORE career options.

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 368

First Consider the Most Popular Full-Time Careers

John: Okay, nonclinical nation, many of you are ready to make a change in your professional life. It may be because you're frustrated and your work-life balance is shot, or maybe it's just because you're ready to level up.

What do I mean by leveling up? Well, leveling up can be described as a process of self-development or to become a better version of yourself. This can include identifying weaknesses and strengths, setting goals, replacing old habits with new habits, focus on success, and possibly moving to a career that's more satisfying and financially rewarding.

As I was thinking about this concept, I was trying to get examples, and I have two examples that really come to mind.

The first one is professional athletes. Some professional athletes are forced to retire. Some just reach their peak and decide after they've done everything they want to do, they just retire, but they have a lot of notoriety and they have hopefully saved up some money. And again, it's kind of parallel to what physicians can do.

I think of examples like those of Magic Johnson's business ventures in broadcasting, music, film, and finance, or John Elway's investments in dealerships in the Denver area that he said later sold off, and then him investing in the Colorado Crush of the Arena Football League in 2002. And of course, many successful athletes have finished their careers as athletes, and then leveled up to do something else very powerful.

Now, those might seem like outliers. Maybe those are just a select few, but I also think of attorneys. There are many attorneys who never practice, or let's say they finish law school, they pass their bar, and they do work for a while in the industry, in law, doing something, but then they find that they can take everything they've learned in law school and with their early experiences as an attorney and segue into another career, which they level up.

You can look around and see a lot of attorneys working in C suite of various companies, not actually practicing law, but applying what they learned as leaders, as researchers, as presenters, and they apply to the new job. You're an attorney and you have a background in healthcare law, well, you can do that with a big firm, or you can actually go and become part of a team to run a healthcare organization, and obviously all those skills will come in handy.

I interviewed somebody who was trained as an attorney. He, for a little while, was helping physicians with their contract negotiations as an attorney. What he did was leverage that to become more of an agent. He helps physicians negotiate better contracts as an agent, but not as an attorney. In fact, he still has attorneys review the contracts. That's a way to level up.

I think the physicians can do the same thing. Healthcare is the largest industry in the United States, and there are positions for physicians in every major aspect of healthcare. Maybe it's natural to think after a few years of being in the trenches and seeing patients, at some point it gets old, and now you look for the next challenge, and that's what we call leveling up.

And so, I want to talk about three of the positions that you should consider, particularly if you're in a big hurry. Now, you can spend six, 12, 18 months researching all of the possible nonclinical careers out there, but if you're looking for a particular type of career that I'll mention in a minute, then maybe you should select from one of the three most commonly pursued careers and go from there, and that's what I'm going to talk about today, the pros, the cons, some of the tactics for doing this, and so forth. They definitely provide a better lifestyle, and they pay well, and so I thought I would focus on those today.

Those careers are those of a chief medical officer at a hospital or health system, medical science liaison, or UM medical director. Now, they're all full-time jobs. We're not going to mess around with starting a new business or getting a part-time job and then segwaying to maybe looking for two or three different part-time jobs that you can patch together like I've talked about before, but these are full-time jobs. They involve employment with a large organization. They have a lot of the usual benefits that only large organizations provide, and they're really seen by physicians as very, very viable options. And so, I thought, "Well, if I can provide examples of these three and tell you a little bit about each of them, maybe that can kind of jumpstart your process of leveling up."

All right, I have definitely interviewed multiple physicians doing all of these jobs. I personally have been a chief medical officer, know many other chief medical officers and other senior executives in hospitals that are physicians. I've interviewed many medical science liaisons, which represents the pharma industry. And then the third is, again, one of the most common, and maybe somewhat underappreciated, and that's being a medical director for a health insurance company, or you might call them a healthcare payer, one of the big ones. That's what I want to talk about today.

Let's talk about the chief medical officer first. What about that? How do we do that? And one of the things that comes up, because maybe I'm comparing these three directly, and it's a little bit, I wouldn't say disingenuous, but it's not correct to, let's say, talk about a new MSL and someone who's becoming a new CMO. CMO is a pretty high-level position. Now, I was going to talk about medical directors in the hospital setting, and it is the stepping stone to becoming a CMO. Both those jobs pay well, they have great benefits, and the lifestyle is much better than, let's say, a practicing physician as an anesthesiologist or an ER doctor in the hospital.

But most medical directors that work in the hospital setting are medical directors for a service line, which means they're usually practicing at least half-time as well. I wouldn't want to call that medical director position as a full-time position. Now, there are some full-time medical director positions. If you're in a large enough hospital and you can be a medical director for quality improvement or for informatics or for utilization management or, let's say, even coding and documentation, those can all be full-time jobs. They can pay well. You can replace your clinical salary for sure. And they do serve as a stepping stone, though, to the ultimate hospital environment job, which would be that of a chief medical officer or one of the other senior positions like chief medical information officer or chief quality officer, something like that.

Now, as far as getting from your medical director role up to the CMO role, which is that last step before, but you could eventually become a COO or even a CEO of a hospital. But in focusing on the CMO role, you're going to do some of these things that we will talk about with all three positions, really.

Maybe a little different here. You might want to get an executive coach or mentor. You definitely want to join LinkedIn because you're going to do a lot of your networking and looking for jobs on LinkedIn if you don't have a way to segue up to the current institution where you're already working.

One of the resources is the AAPL, which is the American Association for Physician Leadership, which is at physicianleaders.org. They have a bunch of books. There's a bunch of other books you can look at for healthcare finances and leadership and so forth.

And the question with that job is, "Does it require relocation?" If you're in a large metropolitan area, there's probably multiple systems where you could look for a job, but it's not uncommon to be able to work your way up an institution's hierarchy, work as a medical director, take on more responsibility over time while you gradually decrease your practice. And ultimately, while you might keep your license, you reach a point where you really don't need a license.

I would maintain it only because sometimes when you're looking to change to a CMO role at another organization, they want you to have the license. I think sometimes that's because they might be using your license for some things, having to do with the pharmacy or covering for ordering drugs for different units. But ultimately, you won't really need to have that license because you're no longer seeing patients. Although as a CMO, you can continue to see patients once a week or every other week or so if you want to continue to do that.

But it's one of those jobs that you should think of right off the bat if you're in a position that enables you to pursue that kind of job. It's not right for everybody. If you're a dermatologist working in an outpatient setting or if you've never had privileges at a hospital, it makes it difficult to start that job search from nothing as opposed to being one of these people in the hospital that are there all the time, the emergency physicians, anesthesiologists and various surgeons and so forth. Geriatricians and hospitalists are typical, very common to move up that path. So that's the first one.

With that, I think I'll move on to the next one, which is medical science liaison. We've talked about this before. It's a very common and attractive position. It really doesn't require any special background. I think it's helpful if you have experience in working with particular drugs or drug classes. It's kind of whatever's popular at the time. Oncologists typically can get into pharma very easily. They'll often go into more of the clinical research side of things, but as an oncologist, it would be very easy to become an MSL, but also pretty much anyone who's using certain drugs and classes of drugs, whether it's cardiology, even gynecologists and family physicians, internists for sure. There's a big push in GI drugs lately. So if you were doing GI work and wanted to transition to this role, it'd probably be fairly easily.

And there are even positions for people that don't have a residency and haven't been in practice, but we're really focusing on those who have been in practice and want to level up to something new with a better lifestyle, but actually paying equal to or more in the long run than what you're doing now. And as I said, we're going to focus on some of those drugs to help convince our new employer.

As far as resources to try and move into this role, you want to commiserate with others that are doing it, you want to go on LinkedIn, you want to have a great profile. This applies to all three. Great LinkedIn profile, networking on LinkedIn, engage with peers. You can join the MSL Society, which the link there is themsls.org. They have a lot in there for people who are already medical science liaisons, but you can imagine just taking a few entry-level courses and reading about becoming an MSL and being an MSL and exceeding and excelling as an MSL would be very helpful. And in addition, you'll learn the language that they speak.

And when you're doing interviews and submitting your resume, you want to sprinkle those and your LinkedIn profile with the vernacular that's not used outside of the pharma industry. And some of it's not even used by anyone other than medical science liaisons. I do also mention the Contract Research Organization, CRO, because you can work directly for a pharmaceutical company as an MSL, but a lot of MSLs work for contract research organizations.

A CRO has different names, it could be the Contract Research Organization, it could be Contract Resource Organization, but they provide resources to pharma companies for those things that they don't want to keep hiring for. And sometimes it's MSLs, it can be other things, it could be the components that actually provide the studies, that monitor the studies and so forth.

You oftentimes will find that CROs are hiring medical science liaisons a little quicker than the pharmaceutical companies go. And all of these things are dependent on what is going on in the industry, how much demand there is based on what new drugs are being released by various companies. And it's at that point of release that MSLs get heavily involved. It's an educational role, it's not a marketing or sales role.

I remember once talking to a guest who's a pediatrician and she didn't think there was any way she could be employed by a pharma company, but because of all the experience she had with vaccines, they happened to be looking for somebody that had that experience and she was able to get a job. And I think initially she was employed by a CRO and then later moved up to a full-time position either with the CRO or with the pharma company itself. That's the second one I wanted to mention today. Don't forget to look at the MSL Society to get some ideas on how to approach that goal.

The last one I want to talk about today, again, one of the big three, is working as a medical director for a utilization management company, working for a large payer. Again, that doesn't require any special background. If you've done chart reviews before in the hospital setting, particularly maybe you've been a physician advisor for UM in the hospital, that might help. All the big insurance companies hire these people, but they also sometimes farm this out to something called an IRO, which is an independent review organization.

And so, many people when they're starting out and becoming a UM or a benefits management medical director, they'll apply at an IRO first and they'll find a job part-time. This is the one that's a little easier to do, kind of the pilots where you're still doing your old job. You're doing some part-time chart reviews for an IRO and then some IROs will hire you full-time.

One of my colleagues really, he hasn't been a guest on the podcast yet. I'm probably going to have him on someday, but he was a surgeon and he just wanted to spend more time with his kids. And he thought, "Well, I don't know. I make a fair amount of money as a surgeon but I'm not having any time with my kids. I'm not spending enough time with my kids. They're growing up, I'm missing on that." And he said, "I'm going to level up to one of these different careers." And so, he did start working as a medical director for an independent review organization and he actually really enjoys it. In addition to doing general sort of chart review work, he's also serving as a resource for those surgical cases. So you can always get that. Even if you're a specialist, sometimes they have special roles for you. One of my other guests or the other one that was a guest as opposed to this first example, he was an invasive cardiologist for pediatrics.

And yeah, he's been working at a health system or a health insurer rather for gosh, at least five or six years now since I interviewed him. And he's very happy and he actually helps other people do that. The resources for that, besides looking around for IROs, if you want a list of some of the IROs, they're basically the ones that are certified. You can go to NAIRO, which is the National Association of IROs at nairo.org/members. You'll get a list of all the NAIRO members and you can go look at their websites to see if they're hiring the type of medical director that you might be looking at. And again, these can be for part-time positions to get you started, to get you exposed.

You can also go to Facebook and look for the Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook group. It's got at least 10,000 members now. It's pretty big group. And everybody in there is kind of talking about working as a payer or a health insurer UM medical director and other associated types of positions.

All the big insurance companies definitely will hire these people as well. Whether we're talking about Cigna or Centene or several others, any of the big ones, they all have them. But they also outsource some of the work to the IROs. Again, I will remind you that for all these positions, it's important to be on LinkedIn. It's important to have a complete profile. It's important to use LinkedIn and sometimes Doximity to locate your colleagues and network with them. See if some of them are already doing one of these jobs.

Like I said, maybe it's time to level up and this is how you can get started. And if one of these three positions sounds right for you, then you can just jump in now and start working on it and see what you think.

The other thing I would say is besides what I've already mentioned in terms of the benefits is they have great benefit packages in most of these places. You've got health insurance, disability insurance, retirement plans, four to six weeks of paid time off. And some of them will even give physicians deferred compensation benefits. So that can be nice for your retirement planning.

Well, I guess that's it for today's discussion. Thousands of physicians literally just in the last few years have found happiness in each of these three careers. They all offer full-time salaries, generally good benefits, and there are resources that can help you get started. Just check out those resources and get going. And if you have any questions, you can always contact me.

If you want to access everything that I've talked about today easily, you can go to the show notes. You'll also get a link to the podcast episode. You'll get related links, several related links actually and the transcript. And you can find all that at nonclinicalphysicians.com/popular-full-time-careers.

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Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post First Consider The Most Popular Full-Time Careers appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This week you will hear priceless advice from an expert in biopharma, Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley. She also brings her experience as a physician career coach and mentor to bear during our conversation.

Over the past five years, Michelle has made significant strides in her biotech career. And she offers valuable insights and advice for physicians looking to transition into the industry.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Power of Relationships in Career Transitions

Michelle highlights the critical role of networking in securing nonclinical roles. “These jobs are all about relationships. Often, you end up getting a job not because you’re the best fit, but because you know someone,” she explains.

She recommends using platforms like LinkedIn and Doximity to connect with industry professionals and seek advice and opportunities.

Priceless Advice from an Expert

When pursuing a job in the biopharma sector, Michelle advises against additional certifications or degrees as the first step. Instead, she suggests focusing on building transferable skills and relationships within the industry. “You shouldn’t have to jump through hoops to get a job. You likely already have the knowledge and skills needed,” she assures.

She also advises us to explore the Medical Affairs Professional Society for useful advice and information.

Encouragement for Aspiring Biopharma Professionals

Don’t lose confidence in yourself. We all face rejection and setbacks, but remember, you are good enough for these roles. Keep believing in yourself and stay persistent. – Michelle Mudge-Riley

Summary

To connect with Dr. Mudge-Riley and learn from her experiences, you can find her on LinkedIn, another resource for priceless advice from an expert. She also recommends checking out the Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS) as a fantastic resource for networking and professional growth in the medical affairs field.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley's LinkedIn
• Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS) 
• The Best Biopharma Positions For Motivated Practicing Physicians
• Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job
• Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job: A PNC Classic from 2021
• Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311
• Research and Development in Nonclinical Pharma Careers
• The Wonderful World of Nonclinical Pharma Careers

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 364

Priceless Advice From An Expert In The BioPharma Industry

- Interview with Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley

John: I'm so happy to welcome today's guest back to the podcast. She's been on the podcast before, but it has been quite a while. She's known as an expert in career transition through coaching and live events, but really she has become an expert in biopharma because she's been working in biopharma and doing some pretty interesting things. I'm really happy to welcome Michelle Mudge-Riley here to the podcast. Hi, Michelle.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Hi, John. So nice to be back with you again.

John: It's great to see you. We were just reminiscing before we started our interview here, but why don't you fill us in a little bit with the highlights of what has transpired in the last five years, let's say, because that's almost as long as it's been since we spoke on the podcast.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Sure. Sounds good. And it really is unbelievable that it's been five years. I know it seems a long time when you're looking at it day to day, but there's so many things you look back and you think, wow, it's been five years or it's been 10 years or it's been years. And yeah, this is a perfect example of that. Yeah, I was the doctor's doctor known as that probably 10, 8 years ago, as I had a thriving business as a career transition coach for physicians. I ran an online and in-person conference. And I also worked for a small boutique consulting company at the time, which enabled me to do a lot of these extra things on the side.

And in my role in that consulting company, I was the medical director for small, medium and large biotech companies. I really enjoyed doing that as well as my side gigs. When COVID hit, that changed everything for everyone. And I won't get into the things that I did with my side gig at that point, but I made some personal decisions that I wanted to look back at my career and have something a little bit different than what I was currently doing. It was like a lot of people, a good time for a change. And that biggest change was that I really wanted to go to the client side, work for a biotech company and experience what it was like on that side versus the consulting side. That's where we were back in 2020.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Now that's a big commitment to make, because you had been doing different things. And of course, even way back before all that, you had a master's degree and did other things as a physician, but that's a big commitment. And as I saw what you were doing, because I could always look on LinkedIn and hopefully you were keeping that up to date. I could see that you were getting involved in more and more different things. I thought you'd be perfect to give us another perspective. I've interviewed a few people working in pharma, but it's usually a specific position we focus on, but I think you can give me a little more of a better perspective, because knowing how physicians are searching for jobs that are more fulfilling and satisfying, and a lot have thought about how can I get into biopharma? So that's why I thought I'd have you come back and enlighten us a little bit today. What is it that interested you about biotech and pharma personally?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, great, great question here. When I started to make my transition over 20 years ago from clinical practice, I considered biotech and pharma and device, and actually did not consider it as seriously as I should have. I thought it was the dark side. I thought it's an easy choice. If you don't want to be a practicing physician, you think about insurance, or you think about pharma. And I didn't want to be such a clich�.

I dabbled a little, but ended up, you're right, getting a master's degree, getting a nutrition, additional training there. I worked for a number of different firms, an employee benefits firm, and then multiple consulting firms. I started some other businesses. And I slowly was always seeing this common thread of being involved with biotech in some way. And I can tell you that what I have done for the past five years has been so fulfilling and so much fun. It's completely changed my life being working directly for a biotech company. And I will most likely finish out my career doing this.

I still have some side gigs. I think that's important. I've always talked about multiple irons in the fire, because it's really easy to get so caught up in the day to day. And you never really know what's going to happen. COVID's another great example, never saw that coming. So making sure that you're diversifying yourself and your career, I still maintain that that's really, really important within compliance, of course, if you're working for a company, that's going to be an issue, which we won't go into today. But it's really fascinating how much fun it is working for biotech. And I know we're going to talk a little bit about that today.

John: Yeah. Well, what's so fun about it? What is it that you personally find to be the fun parts? Because something that's fun for you might not be fun for somebody else. But for you personally, what is it that you like about being involved with the type of company that you are?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, there are two big things that I love about my job. And one is the actual work. And that was something that I've always talked about as being really important, but really hard to find with a career, because you may be influenced by your boss or your colleagues or the autonomy or lack thereof, or all of these other little things, which are also important, by the way. But if you don't like the work, that will drive you to burnout and to just being not your best self.

And so, for me, the work is something I love. I love being able to be able to understand the scientific articles and explain them to others, talk amongst my colleagues about the science and the medicine aspects, learn the new things that we don't learn in medical school about clinical trials and all the aspects. Working with the FDA, looking at the different clinical endpoints, inclusion criteria, talking about the criticisms of different trials and how they compare or don't, and working with other physicians who are experts in the field.

We should get into that too, because that's really interesting working with other physicians, because most people in my position at a pharmaceutical company or device company, they are physicians or their PhDs. And so, how does that differ from the physicians that I work with that are still in practice? But that's an aspect I really, really like as well.

The last part about what I really like about my job is working with very smart and really quirky colleagues. Anyone who's really smart, I feel like has some unique aspect about them that kind of makes them quirky. And I love that about people, just finding out what their unique characteristics are and being able to talk with them about science and just really high level complex stuff, but also get to know them as people and what their hobbies are, what they like to do. They like to go axe throwing or something else that you wouldn't think about. And most people would never think about doing either. Typically people in these companies, they have these really cool hobbies that you then get to learn about.

John: It reminds me about some of the things when I was chief medical officer and thinking back, what did I really like? I really liked the science behind the quality improvement. I would sit in my office by myself creating reports for the board and that. And so, I'm more of an introvert, but that's what I liked. And I had no trouble spending two or three hours doing this report and then explaining it to, let's say, the board or somebody else.

The other thing you mentioned, like the quirky people, our CMO was a nurse. CMO, he was a nurse of course. And he raised chickens. I'm like, okay, there's a weird quirky thing to do. And he'd go to not conferences, but they'd have these shows where he could find the best new chicken breed out there. It's like, you got to be kidding me. But yeah, it's good. It's different than being face-to-face with patients all day. And you do get to interact with physicians in other realms clinically. And the thing again about the pharma and the biotech, it's so scientific. If you have a scientific mind, I think you really fit in well there.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. Yes. I completely agree. I have a colleague who likes to fix coffee makers. How interesting is that? And how different? I would not really thought about doing that, but yeah, just buying coffee makers that may have a small problem and fixing them, making them look really good and selling them. It's interesting.

John: That's interesting. And if yours breaks down, well, you know where to go.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Right. Exactly.

John: To be an entrepreneur and to have to build something yourself is one thing, but tell me, there was something very comforting about being part of a large corporation and probably most pharma companies are massively larger than let's say a hospital that I worked for, but there was just a consistency and the hours were regular and there was a nice IRA or whatever, but that wasn't a pension anymore. But yeah, they had that all worked out. So you find some of that helpful and beneficial as well?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. I think the constant struggle of an entrepreneur is can get old and that grind can get to be something that I've spoken with other physicians who have started companies, sold companies, and then moved into more of a corporate job or just a job where they receive a regular paycheck. It's part of that. Yes. But I will say that in biotech, it's not a massive company all the time that there are really small biotech pharma device companies and they have a different culture than the larger companies. So if someone has tried this before and they haven't really flourished in the way that they want, maybe it's just a matter of a small company versus a large company.

John: How do you prepare for that? What advice do you have? Is there something I can do ahead of time that gives me just a little bit of exposure, maybe a little certain skills that would be good for biotech versus a large pharma company, something like that. Any thoughts on that?Dr.

Michelle Mudge-Riley: It's really hard because you'll hear about physicians and others who have tried for years to get into a biotech company or an insurance company or just to get into this nonclinical career space and have had a lot of difficulty. And so that's a common question. What sort of certifications do you need? What sort of degree? Should I go get an MBA? What have you done to make you successful? And I think the number one thing is that this is really not what people want to hear, but this is what I see over and over and I experienced myself. It's talking to others. It's getting out to people that you don't know that are working in the space and talking to them about what they do.

All of these things are relationship driven type jobs. And often you end up getting your job, maybe not because you're the best fit, but because you knew someone. I don't know, for better for worse, that's how it goes. Because with all of these applicant tracking systems and people not knowing others, you may be the perfect fit for a job or multiple jobs, and you won't even get an interview and that gets people really down. I get it. It's so humbling, but it's not you. It's the system and the system is not perfect. And so, the more people you can talk to and find out about keywords to use, what the industry is actually like, what sort of transferable skills you have. I know you talk about transferable skills on your podcast a lot, and who's there at the company that maybe went to your universe. It could be as simple as that to get that interview. And then everyone likes you when they're talking to you because physicians are typically likable people and we all have the ability to go work at a biotech company if we wanted to.

John: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Between LinkedIn and Doximity, you can probably locate most of your former med school cohorts, your residency, your fellowship, whatever it might be. And chances are someone out of all those hundreds of people that you know, is doing something kind of maybe what you're thinking about. So I've heard that before. And I'm being an introvert. I don't like to really necessarily reach out to people, cold call them, but an email or call they really, they always respond positively in my experience and what I've talked to people about.

I was going to ask you another thing, and it's maybe more about pharma than biotech. See what you think about this. But I imagine if I go on to Pfizer's website and try and apply for a job, I've got about a one in a million chance. But I know pharmaceutical companies use something called the CRO, which we've talked about here before, contract research organization is one definition. But in your experience, whether yourself or with others in businesses you've been involved with, is that something that it can be a bit of a shortcut, or a little easier to get hired than to go directly for one big company?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think it's all about timing. There's some good TED talks that really speak to this. It's all about timing. There are some people who apply to jobs at Pfizer, J&J, or some of these massive companies that you might think of off the top of your head that are pharmaceutical companies when you're starting to think about it. And they're applying, they get the job. But yeah, you're right. In general, these positions, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people applying. And so, it's a numbers game in a lot of aspects. And if you're finding a CRO, or maybe a smaller biotech company that people haven't heard of before, it's numbers game, it's just going to be less applicants. And maybe your application, your resume will catch someone's eye. A lot of this, again, is luck, timing, and you can increase your chances by talking to people in those relationships.

John: It's always better to have someone you can actually send your resume to, even if you go through the electronic version of that, it's still nice to have a human that might be able to sit through them and find yours. See, with the pandemic, it really kind of blew things up a bit. But there used to be some large national meetings that would occur every once in a while. And you could just show up or maybe attend the meeting, maybe it was on some topic related to a diagnostic class or something. And then you could run into people and meet them, take their cards. Does that still happen, do you think?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. I think that still happens a lot. The Medical Affairs Professional Society, or MAPS, is a great example. They have an annual meeting every year in the US. They also have one in the EU every year. That's a great place to maybe start that networking or go to the meeting. It's not a guarantee. So just knowing that ahead of time is important.

John: Let me ask you a definition issue. Because one thing you can do is you can maybe look up people on LinkedIn, again, see if it cross paths with something else you've done in life. But the thing is, what are you looking for? Like medical director, it's a common term in pharma, biotech, medical devices, it doesn't mean that much per se, because it's such a general term. Would that be something you would shoot for right away? Or are there other entry level positions one might usually go to?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, that's a tough one. Because you're right, medical director is such an ambiguous term. And it can mean something different in a lot different industries and at a lot of different companies. It's a good term, but it's going to be tough to use to search and find what you need there.

Medical Science Liaison is more of an entry level sometimes type job into these companies. The thing about an MSL is it's quite different from a medical director. And working as an MSL means you are working within medical affairs, whereas maybe some physicians will be a better fit to work for clinical development, or maybe even clinical operations. Or they may feel like the MSL role is a little bit of a demotion. So, you really have to balance all of those things.

If you're looking to find people in a medical director role, which I think is a really doable and achievable entry level role for most physicians, because we have the degree, we have the background, we have the clinical knowledge, and that's really looked at in a positive way, is to search by different companies. Maybe make a list of companies and then do that cross check and cross reference on LinkedIn. And then you can find people maybe a little bit easier within these different departments at that company.

John: Now, here's the question I've never asked anyone. But again, I'm always noticing these terms and trying to keep them all straight. But I've seen a number of people that the word global is in part, like global medical director, global this, global that. I assume that means because it's international. But what the heck does that really mean? Does it mean you're traveling the globe to do your work? Or what's your experience with that?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: You mean something different at every company. It most likely means that you are on the global team, which means you'll interact with colleagues in the EU or Asia, just somewhere other than the United States. But doesn't necessarily mean that you're traveling there. But it may, it may mean you're traveling there a lot. So it's very different depending on the company.

John: See, I talked to somebody about medical device, he teaches people how to do the MDR stuff in Great Britain. And his comment was though, let's say you're on that side of the pond, and you're looking for a job like this, because we get people that go back and forth. And he said, whatever you're doing there in Europe usually is going to apply in the United States, because all the companies in Europe that make drugs and biotech, they want to also sell in the United States. That can be a good thing to know that there's options on both sides of the Atlantic.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Absolutely, yes, there is a lot of money in drugs in the US for better for worse. We could have a whole conversation about the ethics behind that. And is this the right thing? And how does this work needed for R&D? Let's not go down any of those routes. But you're right. Yes.

John: But I think they're big businesses. And so, they either hire a lot of people directly or indirectly. So that's good. It's a good option for physicians, we're scientists, and we most of us use drugs and medical devices so that kind of makes for a natural transition.

I think you alluded to this next question, but I have it on my list. I'm going to double check. That has to do with how to prepare or to increase your chances. I know we both don't tell people to go out and spend $60,000 or $100,000 on MBA just to get a job in a pharma company. But is there anything out there in terms of maybe a certificate exposure to research? I don't know, ways to get a little bit on your resume that might be might demonstrate some knowledge?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah. I wish but not really. It really comes down to all the things that I talked about before. The timing, the knowing people the right place, right time, you can get certifications just to make sure that you know about these different topics, or you're well educated, you can do a good job in the interviews. And that's great. And maybe that will help you a bit. But it's nothing is a slam dunk guarantee. That's the really hard part about all of this. I wish there was. But if there was, we would already know about it now, I guess, right?

John: Yeah, I think it gets back to what you said earlier, if you can have a connection and find out, narrow your search down based on talking to people, you may find in that particular job that this particular certification might help you get that job, but it's not going to apply across the board.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. And if you're truly interested in that topic, getting that certification is only going to help you. And that's good, you should never just be doing things to get the job. In two years, you're going to be tired of it, you're going to be moving on anyway. So, try to also check your own self and make sure that you're doing these things, because you want this information. And would you do it anyway? Maybe if it's a little bit? Well, no, probably not, a little bit it's okay. But if it's you're just doing this to get the job, that may be also a little bit of a signal that this isn't the right field, or maybe looking at an easier way to do it, because you shouldn't be killing yourself to try to get that job.

John: Yeah, you should have the knowledge and a lot of the skills that already that would apply in that job.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes.

John: Because like you said, so many of them are filled by physicians. So there is a demand there. And it's just a matter of getting that communicated across to the company in the HR department that you're applying to. Okay, Michelle, well, I think I've bent your ear for long enough here. So why don't you close by giving our listeners here some any last minute advice or positive words of encouragement for those that are thinking "I do want to try something different. And I do think it's in the biotech or biopharma area."

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is something that I usually mentioned, so people have heard me speak before they've heard this, and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's lose confidence in yourself. And I'm just as guilty of it as others. We go through these phases where we're so beaten down by rejection, and things not working out, it's really easy to start thinking that you're not good enough, you don't know enough, you're not smart enough, not good looking enough, not tall enough, you're never going to make it. I hate those periods, but we all go through them. And that's what's going to just bring you down even more. Because when you're when you're in that place, you can't be the person that you are. And I think all of us as physicians, we got into med school, we got through at least a year, most of us all the years and all the residency, but whether you cut it short or not, you still were able to get there. And you are good enough to be in one of these jobs.

So don't lose confidence in yourself, do whatever it takes, have your support system, find a therapist, find a coach, find whatever it takes to just kind of get yourself to the point where you're able to talk about your strengths and your weaknesses, but be able to articulate what you want to do, and why you want to do it and why you're a good fit. And then it's a numbers game. It's annoying like that, but it is.

John: Yeah, and I know that you and I both could give dozens, if not hundreds of examples of physicians who have done that, and they thought it was kind of impossible at first, and then they realized "No, it's not." And now they're having great careers and loving it. So that's excellent reminder.

All right, Michelle, with that, I think it's time to say goodbye. I will tell people, I have links in the show notes, just reminding them that they can find you at LinkedIn. And that'd probably be the best way to reach out to you if they have any questions or things they want to double check. Maybe they went to school with you, and they've lost touch. Maybe you can help them get a job in pharma. But anyway, with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: That sounds great. Thanks, John. Thanks for your time. Thanks for having me.

John: You're welcome.

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In today's episode, Dr. Lara Hochman returns to the podcast to share her insights on finding joy when seeking a new practice.

Through Dr. Hochman's company, Happy Day Health, she matches physicians with private practices that prioritize their well-being and financial stability.

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Your Guide to a Stress-Free Medical Career

Dr. Lara Hochman introduces the Stress-Free Physician Career Guide, a free email course designed to help physicians navigate the job market with confidence. This resource covers essential topics such as vetting potential practices based on personal values, choosing the right employer, and negotiating salaries. By providing this guide, Lara aims to equip physicians with the knowledge they need to make informed career decisions and find positions that align with their aspirations and values.

Avoiding Common Pitfalls in Job Selection

One of the most common mistakes physicians make when choosing an employer is focusing solely on salary. Dr. Lara Hochman warns against this approach, advising physicians to consider factors like work-life balance, practice culture, and support systems. She emphasizes the importance of thoroughly vetting potential practices by speaking with current physicians and staff. By understanding what truly matters to them and asking the right questions, physicians can avoid pitfalls and find fulfilling positions that offer more than just a paycheck.

Dr. Lara Hochman's Advice on The Importance of Knowing What You Want

Knowing what you're looking for first, and then just going out and finding that… It's very cool to see when I work with physicians who know exactly what they want, and I find them that and they land the job and they're happy.

Summary

By thoroughly vetting practices and asking the right questions, physicians can find fulfilling positions that enhance their work-life balance and overall happiness. For more resources and information, visit Happy Day Health and connect with Dr. Hochman on LinkedIn or Instagram.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Lara Hochman's Website at Happy Day Health
• Dr. Lara Hochman's LinkedIn Page
• The Stress-Free Physicians Career Guide

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 363

Avoid These Mistakes When Seeking a New Practice

- Interview with Dr. Lara Hochman

John: As I've mentioned in previous episodes of the show, I'm becoming more and more convinced that we as physicians can find happiness in medical practice. I focus a lot on nonclinical careers, but I'm seeing more and more about practices that are really fun to be a part of. My guest today was here a couple of years ago, and she was talking about those situations because she matches physicians with practices. And so, I thought I'd have her come back to kind of complete that conversation. With that, I want to just say that I'm happy to have Dr. Lara Hochman here on the podcast again. Hi, Lara.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Hi, thank you so much for having me back. I'm so excited.

John: Well, good. You've been continuing to do what you were doing back then, in terms of connecting physicians with practices. I've talked to a lot of people, but I don't actually do the connecting and I never have a chance to really follow up with people necessarily if they've been on the podcast. I'm really looking for some of your advice and wisdom on this. But tell us a little bit about where things have gone, let's say in the last year and a half or two years since we spoke in terms of Happy Day Health and what you're doing, and remind our listeners as to what exactly we're talking about.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Sure. As the medical matchmaker, I created Happy Day Health as a company that really helps to match physicians with physician owned private practices. And these are practices that I have vetted, that I believe treat their physicians well, that are financially viable, and that are great places to work.

And I do this because I think it's important for us before deciding to make that leap into nonclinical medicine or to make that leap into all the dire things that we as physicians, look at what the other options are out there because there's some awesome places to work. And that's by having more physicians in private practice, this is how we really regain our voice as a physician community.

John: I agree a hundred percent. And so, I think it's going to be very useful for us to learn from you what we should really be looking at to optimize that situation. I have my ideas, but I'm not even going to get into that. And one of the things I noticed when I was looking at your website again, and reviewing some of your videos and that is that you created a new resource that I hadn't seen before called the Stress-Free Physician Career Guide. So why don't you tell us about that? Because I think our listeners, many will be interested in accessing that.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah, this is an email course, it's completely free. And it runs through a little bit about vetting those practices for yourself. If you're looking for a job and trying to figure out what does that job even look like? Or how do you vet a practice according to your values? Because what's an ideal practice for me is not going to be the ideal practice for you. So using what you know about your values and what your dream job looks like, how do you use that to vet the practice and see if it's correct for you? And then how do you select your ideal employer? How do you negotiate your salary? So, it's just a very nice, easy, free resource for physicians to help answer a lot of the questions that I get repeatedly. And that are so important to know how to do.

John: Yeah, I talked to a lot of coaches by virtue of doing the podcast. And for many of them, the first step is always about identifying what your passion is, or what your goals are, or what your principles are, or vision, those kinds of things, you're starting a new business. And so it sounds like you start there, and then you just go even beyond that is to dig into exactly what you might be looking for.

One of the things that I used to advise people that were looking for a job in the hospital setting was the same thing was, make a list of everything you do, let's say in a day or a week, and separate them by what you love doing and what you hate doing, and then try and find a career that will optimize what you love and get rid of all of what you hate. So where do we find the career guide? I don't want to forget about sending people to the right place.

Dr. Lara Hochman: If you head to my website, which is www.happydayhealth.co, there's a tab at the top, the stress-free physician career guide, go ahead, and it'll be right there.

John: Just start filling it out and using it. Okay, cool. One of the ways I like to look at some things sometimes when people are thinking about their career, and it's kind of like clickbait when you look at the internet, but it's like mistakes to avoid. That's why I'm going to ask you questions about mistakes that we can avoid. So, let's start with, I'm assuming that you're dealing mostly with physicians who are coming from practice, maybe they're coming fresh out of residency or fellowship, but they're probably going to start as an employee. They may not end up that way, and I guess I'll ask you about that in a minute, but what's the biggest mistake when choosing an employer? Should we just go with the one that pays us the most? Or how do we find out for sure that we're going to like being at, working with some group, assuming mostly it's going to be a physician group?

Dr. Lara Hochman: That's funny, that would probably be the biggest mistake that I see is just going with the one that pays the most. And I totally get it. Yeah, it's not even desperate. It's the loans and I want to get paid my worth and I want to feel well compensated. And those are all very valid. But in doing that, there's a lot of other things that get overlooked a lot.

Maybe besides compensation, and I was speaking with a financial advisor once who said the best paying job is probably your red flag. That's the red flag is if it pays really well. You can think of it that way. But, yeah, it's definitely interesting how pay structure works. And especially in the insurance model and how insurance companies pay hospitals versus FQHCs versus private practice. That's all important to take into account.

But I would say the other biggest mistake, oh, gosh, it's so hard to narrow it down to one. One of the ones is interviewing too many places, which sounds silly, almost, but what I tend to see is that then you go into analysis paralysis, so you don't know what you're looking for beforehand. Then you're interviewing at multiple practices, you get multiple offers, they're all a little bit different from each other. What ends up happening is you just shut down. When you have too many tabs open in your brain, and these are big tabs. This is a big life decision. And then it often people just end up picking the highest paying one.

So, knowing what you're looking for first, and then just going out and finding that. It's very cool to see when I work with physicians who know exactly what they want, and I find them that and they land the job and they're happy, like, easy peasy versus the ones and typically those are the younger new grads or anything don't really know what they want yet. And they just look everywhere. And then sometimes they'll lose opportunities because they take too long. And that may have been this incredible opportunity that they've lost. So, that would be a big one. And one that I think would be pretty unexpected.

Another one is not vetting the practice appropriately. You hear a lot of times, even in physician owned practices of a bait and switch they promised me this, but then I got that. And it's actually pretty easy to avoid that situation just by speaking with physicians that are already in the practice saying, well, an example is a physician I recently placed in this pretty cool practice. She came from a bait and switch situation where she was a high producer. She wanted to see a lot of patients. She was promised a lot of patients and she was paid purely on production, which is great potentially, but turns out they couldn't even fill her schedule more than five patients a day. That's something that could have been avoided. So, not vetting the practice appropriately is really important. So you don't get into the bait and switch situation.

John: Yeah. I was chatting with a physician recently that I know very well and he's fresh out of residency a year or so ago. And he had that exact situation. It looked like a good practice. It was actually physician run and owned have been around a long time, but his volume was nowhere near what they said it would be. They practically guaranteed it, although not in the contract of course. And he wasn't making anywhere near because the productivity kicked in at the end of the first year and he was still in the process of building his practice. So that was rough for sure. And he's gone somewhere else now, which is very disruptive.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah. It's so important to know what you're getting yourself into. And on the flip side, the practices that are hiring, it's expensive to hire doctors and you don't want to tell them the wrong thing and then have them arrive and realize it's something different and leave. Because then you've lost many tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of dollars by hiring someone unnecessarily. So, practices need to be honest as well. It's really a two way street.

John: And I think we talked about this last time that maybe physicians don't have deep pockets. If they're a small group, three, five, 10, whatever, even a group of 20, they don't have the resources of a large hospital system. So focusing on the pay is probably, the cultures of those two situations are completely different. Again, it gets back to what you said before about focusing on the, just the pay.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah. There's so much more to that. And especially with how much we want a good quality of life as we should, those are really important things to look at. What's your work-life balance going to be like, what what's the culture of the practice going to be like, will you have a voice? Will you have autonomy? Will admin listen to you? Do you have support? There's so many things that are going to be important to avoid burnout. That's really should not be overlooked. It's really important.

John: What about to switch gears a little bit, just in terms of negotiating everyone, maybe you find the ideal practice, looks like it would be ideal, but you do have to go through that process. So maybe mistakes you might see related to negotiating the contract once it gets to that point.

Dr. Lara Hochman: The big things are around transparency. I don't really see negotiating as I'm going to say what I want and you say what you want and it's buttheads until someone has to give in. Negotiating really is coming to an agreement on what works on both sides. And really working towards that together, I think is so important.

If you're just closed mind and you're like, I want X, Y, Z, and this is it, or else you're probably not going to get anywhere. You're not going to get what you want and versus using the example of tail malpractice insurance, I went tail, the practice doesn't want to provide tail. Well, maybe you can meet in the middle and see how it'll work for both. Obviously, tail is going to be less expensive for something like pediatrics than it would for OB-GYN or neurosurgery. But if I stay three years, perhaps you can pay 50%. If I stay, stay five years, you'll pay 100%, whatever it is, but trying to find something that works for both ends. Because if you're going to ask a new an OBGYN practice to pay your $100,000 tail, if you leave off to one year, that's probably not fair. Seeing it from both sides really is important, when it comes to negotiating for sure.

John: When I was CMO of a hospital, I used to do a lot of contract negotiations. And when I came away with, once I left was yeah, a small practice is not going to be able to put all that money out after one year of work and you just leave. But if you're working for a large hospital system, I put my foot down and say, look, this is the cost of doing business in that situation. But when it comes to, you got to give your physician partners a little bit of a break. If you're talking about tail for a very high cost specialty, that makes perfect sense. Anything else in the contracts that you've found maybe have been stumbling blocks that maybe unnecessarily prevented someone from accepting a relatively good or very good position?

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah, actually recently I had a physician, wonderful physician with an incredible practice who she had her dollar amount that she wanted to earn and just wasn't realistic. She didn't want to see a whole bunch of patients. So, unfortunately the math didn't work. But she was coming from a big hospital system that could blow money and was burnt out seeing 20 patients a day coming to a small private practice who had scribes admin support. When you're done, you're done. Awesome culture. This practice is just exemplary, really, really good practice, good morals, good ethics. But they see far more patients a day than this physician was used to.

And what it ended up coming down to was the practice said, we love this physician. We would love to have her join our team. However, she'd be seeing half the amount of patients we are and getting paid more. And we can't justify it. We can't that she's not even bringing in the revenue to be able to justify her salary.

I think knowing what it is that you're asking is so important. And that comes back down to the win-win situation that we were talking about earlier, but understanding what it is you're asking for before asking for it, and then truly actually listening to what the practice is saying back, because you may lose the job opportunity of your lifetime. And you may have been willing to take that lower salary, but because you didn't quite play ball, so to speak not take part in that two-way conversation, you may lose something that could be really cool.

John: Yeah, because every practice is totally different. And if one is very efficient, it has a lot of support like you said, they had scribes. That gets rid of a lot of work. Oh boy, that's probably based on just, again, she was fixated on one thing, and that was the most important, and she wasn't going to listen to any kind of alternatives.

Well, again, that gets back to the vetting. When I think about vetting like hospital systems, there's a lot of data out there publicly, probably not so much for physicians, but give us a few examples. Who should they talk to if they're trying to vet a practice? I can imagine there's be dozens of different approaches to trying to get information, including maybe talking to some of the patients, but what do most of your clients do to try and learn as much as they can about an opportunity?

Dr. Lara Hochman: The first step is in the interview. Really, there are almost no wrong questions. There's wrong ways to ask certain questions. But if there's something that you're afraid to ask, it probably means it's one of the most important things to ask. So, I'll have doctors who say this is really important to me, but I'm afraid to ask it. I really want to be a partner, but I don't want to scare them away, but if that's something that's really important to you, you definitely want to ask. It goes back to knowing your values and knowing what's important to you, and that's where that starts. Ask the hard questions. Definitely not just ask them, but ask them in a nice way. How would you want to be asked certain questions? Speak with other physicians that are already in the practice. If you're interviewing with a practice that only has one physician or one clinician, speak to the office manager. Speak to the medical assistants. Look at the turnover rate.

So, if the practice is turning over their office managers or billing people, that's potentially a red flag. So, look at that. If there's no one to speak to, well, that's not really very good. And then you want to ask those people about things that are important to you. You can ask around in the community. What I like to do when I'm interviewing for jobs or I actually went to a practice as a patient who now ended up being a repeat client of mine, but when I was in the waiting room, I was speaking with the receptionist and asking her what's it like working for this practice? She didn't know who I was. She didn't even know that I was evaluating if I wanted to work with them as help them find a doctor. But speaking with as many people as you can is one of the most important things. And if there are more than one physician in the practice, those are the people you want to speak to.

John: Okay. This is a question I think that my listeners will have. So, you've connected these physicians with practices. It's mostly physician run practices. Do the majority of those, are they looking for eventual partnership? Are some of them looking just to remain an employee, if it suits them? What's your experience been with that sort of goal?

Dr. Lara Hochman: It's about 50-50, I would say. The practices that are looking for partners, part of how I vet it is are they actually looking for a partner or are they just saying you're a partner so that they'll draw you in? Yeah, the practices that I work with that are looking for a partner are looking for a true partner. They want someone to bounce business ideas off of. They want someone to help them grow their practice. They want someone to be a part of the business, and typically they will start teaching you that before you become partners so that at the time of partnership, you can hit the ground running.

John: Okay. Another question that might come up, I'm thinking for my listeners. We've heard a lot about physicians going into practice that they love. And one of the options that some of the solo people have done that I've talked to have gone into a DPC. And I think I saw that one of your listings had specifically mentioned that. So, where does that fall in this? Are many of your practices that you're working with, are they DPCs? Are more going that way? What's your feedback on that whole situation?

Dr. Lara Hochman: There's definitely more DPCs opening up for sure. There's no question about that. As more people learn about it, it's such an attractive option. Some of my practices are direct primary care, direct specialty care or concierge. I wouldn't say the majority yet. I imagine that will change as more and more practices open, but it's an incredible option. It's really great.

John: Okay. All right. I'm trying to think of other questions that I've been asked personally, or that I have. Those are the top things that I was interested in learning about. And I mean, it sounds very hopeful to me. I think I'm going to have to get some more guests running DPCs and things like that. Tell us your website again, where can we find you and where can we look for the Stress-Free Physician Career Guide?

Dr. Lara Hochman: My website is www.happytohealth.co. Please check it out. That's where I have all of my jobs posted that I'm currently helping. You can sign up if there's something you don't see that you want, you can sign up and I'll let you know when something does come up for that. The Stress-Free Physician Career Guide is on there. There's a link to a course that I ran on opening your own practice. Anything is on there. I'm on social media, LinkedIn, Laura Hockman MD is where I'm the most active. I am on Instagram, Happy Day MD, I think. I don't even know.

John: I forget where my social media is. But yes, definitely. I saw the YouTube videos. So they're definitely going to be found there. You've been on another podcast, I'm sure, where you address this issue. So we can look for you there. All right. I guess I'm going to let you go in a minute here. But I'm just thinking, okay, if you're currently an employed physician, you're in a practice or working for a large corporation, you're probably doing the usual insurance company driven healthcare and you're getting miserable, any other advice you have just in general for how these people should think about the rest of their careers while they're feeling miserable?

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah, we got one life, we have to enjoy it. There'll be no job that's going to be good 100% of the time. But if you're miserable, why wait? What are you waiting for? If you're so unhappy, there's going to be something better, whether it's nonclinical, and that's where your podcast really can come in handy, or something clinical is out there that you enjoy, I would say, open up your mind. There's a lot of where we feel like we need to be practicing one way or we need to do it one way or another.

What have you got to lose? Take a job that sees less patients, take a job that if you want to stay clinical, think about what it is you actually don't like about your job. And most of what I hear is not clinical part, it's the admin part. So there's jobs available out there where you can still see patients and still do good in the world, and not have to deal with all the admin stuff. So you got this, it's just a matter of finding what you want, but knowing what you want first, so that you can go out and find it.

John: Yeah, so many physicians obviously want to be taking care of patients. And like you said earlier, there may be that practice not that far away that just has scribes, and you don't have to deal with the EMR as much as you do now, or whatever that issue might be. I think things are starting to turn for the better. I really appreciate you doing what you do and sharing these updates with us from time to time so that we keep the faith. Thanks again for being here today, Lara.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

John: You're welcome. I'll hopefully talk to you again next year or two.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Great.

John: Bye-bye.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Bye.

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Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Avoid These Mistakes When Seeking a New Practice appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This is Part 2 of my interview with Andrew Wilner about shifting from medical writing to locum life. You can find Part 1 at How to Blend Medical Writing and the Locum Life.

When he decided to return to clinical medicine, Andrew discovered a wide-open locum tenens market for all specialties, even neurologists! Lucky for him, the opportunities for finding work had exploded during the previous decade.

“I liked the idea that I would show up, work 100% of the time, and then stop,” said Andrew. “Then, I can go back to the Philippines, dive, and work on my next book.”

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast. The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to unconventional physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Downsides of a Locum Tenens Lifestyle

But moving from place to place to practice has its downsides. Andrew describes the tedious credentialing, licensing, and CME credit challenges that come with the bureaucracy of medicine. And you must plan well to avoid long periods without work. The locum life has its challenges.

At one point, Andrew had licenses in 10 states. It became a challenge to meet CME requirements and track different expiration dates and fees.

Medical Writing to the Locum Life

Wherever he went, Andrew’s experience with locums has been similar. The places have modern information systems, excellent imaging technology, and a welcoming attitude.

The one thing about shifting from medical writing to the locum life was feeling very appreciated. You're showing up where they really need you. You're not angling for the job. They're signing you because they need you now: “Oh, welcome, Dr. Wilner. We're so glad you're here.”

According to Andrew, they're often ecstatic that you're there. Show up and do a good job and your efforts will be appreciated in most cases.

That's the second half of my interview with Andrew Wilner. You can find his book here: The Locum Life: A Physician's Guide to Locum Tenens.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for today's episode:

• Dr. Andrew Wilner
• How to Blend Medical Writing and the Locum Life
• The Locum Life: A Physician's Guide to Locum Tenens

Thanks to our sponsor…

Thanks to the UT Physician Executive MBA program for sponsoring the show. It’s an outstanding, highly-rated, MBA program designed for working physicians. It might be just what you need to prepare for that joyful, well-paying career. You can find out more at vitalpe.net/physicianmba.

Disclaimers:

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life or business. 

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. It should not be construed as medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counsellor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The post Shifting from Medical Writing to the Locum Life appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Dr. Andrew Wilner discovered early that he could develop a career that would blend medical writing and the locum life. He has always been a dedicated writer. And he is passionate about medicine. 

Writing has been a part of his life since high school. After medical school and internship, Andrew became an emergency room doctor while trying to decide the next steps for his career.

Using the flexibility that came with the ER job, Andrew continued to write. And that temporary ER job “was actually locum tenens. I never knew of it as such,” said Andrew. It not only allowed him to write books and continue his clinical work, but it helped him discover an interest in neurology. This led to his applying for a neurology residency at McGill University in Montreal. He was later accepted to the program and eventually completed an epilepsy fellowship at McGill.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast. The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Full-Time Writer

In Andrew's opinion, there's not much “literature” in the scientific literature. Writing a scientific paper is just a skill and “pure drudgery.” It’s not a creative endeavor. But writing for online journals, news outlets, and blogs requires a creative mind, and satisfies Andrew's need to write.

As an epilepsy expert, he wanted to write a book about epilepsy, so he published Epilepsy 199 Answers: A Doctor Responds to His Patients' Questions, in 1996.

• What is epilepsy?
• Is it contagious?
• What's an EEG?
• Can I drive a car?

Later, he wrote a book for clinicians, Epilepsy in Clinical Practice: A Case Study Approach.

While between jobs, he started doing interviews at conferences writing news articles for written publications. He found he was quite good at it, sometimes turning a 3-day conference into twenty or more published articles.

He developed relationships with editors. As the Internet exploded, he wrote blog articles and news stories for online publications such as Medscape, KevinMD, and Neurology Times. He had to hustle and write a lot but earned a living with his writing.

He transformed his blog posts into his first non-epilepsy book, Bullets and Brains. It opens with an essay about the impact of a brain injury on the life and career of a very capable, high-performing congresswoman, Gabrielle Giffords. She was shot in the brain. And Andrew explored the idea that “bullets and brains (obviously) don't mix.”

Blend Medical Writing and the Locum Life

With the growth of the Internet and the ability to work remotely as a writer, Andrew decided to travel. “One of my passions is scuba diving, so I went off to the Philippines. I discovered that I could sit there with my little laptop and write my articles,” said Andrew.

However, he had to consider whether he wanted to “retire” from clinical work permanently. He found that as he distanced himself from the clinic and seeing patients, his knowledge became less relevant, and he became less desirable as a speaker.

I think if you've been a dedicated clinician, taking some time off is only a good thing. – Andrew Wilner

So he decided to give clinical practice another shot. After writing for a living for ten years, he decided to return to clinical practice. It wasn’t easy, not because he had forgotten anything, but because the system wasn't flexible.

He had difficulty obtaining malpractice coverage. However, a small hospital desperate for neurology coverage helped him return to clinical medicine by arranging temporary supervision that demonstrated his competence to practice.

He then sought to balance his clinical work and medical writing. He started by pursuing locum tenens positions. In the process, he began a whole new chapter of his life. And it eventually led to the publishing of another book.

That's the first half of my interview with Andrew Wilner. Next week we'll pick up here and talk about his experiences living the “locum life,” and how those experiences inspired him to write his latest book The Locum Life: A Physician's Guide to Locum Tenens.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for today's episode:

• Dr. Andrew Wilner's Website
• Epilepsy 199 Answers
• Epilepsy in Clinical Practice
• Bullets and Brains
• Heidi Moawad
• American Academy of Neurology
• American Epilepsy Society
• Medscape
• Montreal Neurological Institute
• Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
• National Institutes of Health (NIH)

Thanks to our sponsor…

Thanks to the UT Physician Executive MBA program for sponsoring the show. It’s an outstanding, highly-rated, MBA program designed for working physicians. It might be just what you need to prepare for that joyful, well-paying career. You can find out more at nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The post How to Blend Medical Writing and the Locum Life appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

I’ve invited a former guest from 2020 to show us how he created the private practice of the future while simultaneously growing a business start-up.

Dr. Phil Boucher has been in private practice since 2014. He is known for integrating cutting-edge technologies into his practice, and for helping other physicians communicate better with patients, improve productivity, and understand marketing. 

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Dr. Phil Boucher Creates the Private Practice of the Future

Dr. Phil Boucher is revolutionizing private medical practices with his innovative tools, OpenSpot and Practice Leads. OpenSpot fills last-minute appointment cancellations via automated text messaging, easing the administrative burden and maximizing capacity. Practice Leads offers a HIPAA-compliant CRM that centralizes patient communications, ensuring no potential patient is overlooked and automating follow-ups.

Dr. Boucher’s approach combines technology with personalized care, advocating for physicians to embrace private practice for greater autonomy and job satisfaction. By providing tools to streamline operations and nurture patient relationships, he helps physicians create thriving, independent practices that deliver exceptional care. His vision for the future of private practice blends efficiency with a personal touch, benefiting both physicians and patients.

Revolutionizing Appointment Management with OpenSpot

Dr. Phil Boucher highlights how OpenSpot addresses the common issue of last-minute cancellations in medical practices. By leveraging text messaging, OpenSpot fills scheduling gaps without burdening administrative staff with endless phone calls. The platform integrates seamlessly with existing systems like email, Slack, or Teams, ensuring real-time updates on filled slots. Available nationwide, OpenSpot can be set up within a week, offering a streamlined solution that enhances efficiency and patient satisfaction.

Empowering Physicians to Embrace Autonomy and Fun in Practice

I think physicians are often afraid because they feel like business is too hard… There's a way to figure out how to go into business for yourself and to practice medicine or to serve the people that you feel called to serve… It can be really fun and… profitable and you can really enjoy your life more.

Summary

To learn more, book a demo, or connect with Dr. Boucher, visit findopenspot.com and getpracticeleads.com. Additionally, Dr. Boucher is accessible via text for direct communication and support. His commitment to improving private practice is evident in his willingness to engage and assist fellow physicians in optimizing their practice management and patient care.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Frontier Pediatric Care
• Phil Boucher's LinkedIn Profile
• OpenSpot SMS Platform for Replacing Cancellations Quickly.
• Practice Leads – Manage Your Leads In One Place
• Who Can Help When Private Practice Matters? – 174
• How to Save Healthcare, Satisfy Patients, and Fix Physician Burnout – 256
• Text QUESTIONS for Phil Boucher to 402-741-4494.

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 360

Building the Private Practice of the Future with Technology

- Interview with Dr. Phil Boucher

John: Today's guest has always been an innovator when it comes to adopting new technologies to make his medical practice more efficient, more accessible, and more fun for everybody. And even back in 2020 when we first met, he was developing new ways to improve the patient experience and the physician's experience with practice. And so, with that, I want to welcome today's guest, Dr. Phil Boucher. Welcome.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Thank you so much. I can't believe it's been since December 2020. What a difference, it feels like a decade makes in the past four years. Oh my gosh.

John: Went through one pandemic, there could have been two in there, I suppose, but one was enough.

Dr. Phil Boucher: No one would have noticed if there were two probably at that point.

John: Well, no. I was doing purposely, I was looking back at old guests to see what they were up to today. And then I came across what you're doing. And it's almost overwhelming to me, just jumping back in years later and go, "Whoa, what's Phil up to?"

Dr. Phil Boucher: Right.

John: Give us a brief version of what's happened since we last spoke in 2020.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Background for me, if you've missed the episode back in 2020 is I'm a pediatrician in Lincoln, Nebraska. I graduated from residency like 10 years ago now, and was in private practice partner for about eight years, left that partnership two and a half years ago to start a pediatric direct primary care practice. Also in that time came up with this software concept that we'll talk about, I'm sure.

I built a software company and have been wearing those two hats to help physicians, help my patients. So it's kind of been a mix of things that I've been up to in the big picture of things. The two biggest things on my plate have been my DPC practice and my software company.

I also do a lot of marketing help for physicians, especially private practice physicians is kind of my people. And so helping private practice owners and physicians in private practice to better market themselves to their local patient populations. Those are kind of the big picture of things. We also built a new house. We have six kids now. I don't remember how many we had back in then. I won't try to remember.

John: Four, maybe.

Dr. Phil Boucher: But we probably had four of that and we have six now and we got two more dogs in the meantime too. So a lot has happened, I guess since we last spoke.

John: Yes, that is a lot. I got to pile on a little bit because I don't know if I've mentioned this in the podcast before listeners, but as of December of this past year, I didn't have any grandkids. I have five kids between my wife and I have a family and had no grandkids. And now we have three.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Your Christmas just got a lot more expensive there this year.

John: Yeah, exactly. I don't know, but six kids now that's good. I'm from a family of 10. I'm the oldest, but I can't even imagine in today's day and age to get six or more kids.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Oh gosh. I'm sure similar to back then, once you reach a certain threshold, another mouth to feed is, you just kind of divide the plates up a little bit differently and the cost and the time does diminish after you get to a certain number. I don't know what that number is.

John: Yeah. Well, congratulations. You've done a lot here and keep moving forward in all areas of your life, which is awesome. So let's get to the business of today. The really thing that kind of interested me is when I saw that you weredoing these sort of side gig businesses with software and that kind of thing. But I do want you to just briefly tell us about the DPC because that's also a very interesting topic.

Dr. Phil Boucher: I got pulled towards DPC kind of in 2021, listening to podcasts about DPC, to be honest with you. And hearing about the way that they were able to help families and help their parent practice to really thrive. It made me really excited for, well, I see so many different ways that patients and as a pediatrician, it's mostly the parents that we're talking about here, that they're struggling regardless of the pandemic, just the way that they connect with the way that they feel herded in and out of the office, the wait times, all of those things really weighed on my heart, seeing the ways that we weren't able to care for the patients the way that I wanted to, which led me to DPC and then realizing that there's so many ways to reduce the hassle for families and for me as the clinician to really drew me to direct primary care.

We have in our state, Nebraska, several family practice, direct primary care practices that have been thriving, but ours was the first and remains the first and only pediatric direct primary care. Luckily, around the country, though, there are a number of thriving pediatric direct primary care practices and really a network of pediatricians supporting each other in direct primary care.

There's a couple specific in the DPC realm things about pediatrics, and one of the biggest is the vaccines. And so, that was one of the hard hurdles to climb. And I've been working to help other pediatricians climb that hurdle now that I'm on the other side of that and have a good setup for vaccines. But as you know, vaccines are extremely expensive and often become a huge source of cash flow issue for practices in general. And when you're talking about pediatric DPC, where the volume is smaller, all of those things that really magnifies the cash flow issues that go along with vaccines. That was a big hurdle to climb over.

And then the other thing for pediatrics is almost all parents have insurance. They either have commercial or private insurance or Medicaid. And so, most kids are insured. So there's a little bit of a different angle when it comes to the value offer that we put to prospective patients that are considering joining our practice that isn't as required as strongly, I feel like, in the family practice realm.

It's not zero, but there is a different value offer when it comes to positioning yourself to grow your pediatric direct primary care practice from a marketing standpoint and from a way that we sell. We do the sales for patients joining our practice. So those have been kind of two of the really interesting challenges when it comes to pediatric DPC. And then just being a business owner and owning a practice, all of those sorts of things that kind of go along with starting a practice from scratch.

John: Nice. Well, that could be a whole separate episode. I think I'm going to do a series maybe two or three of you who are doing this family medicine internist, others, and maybe we can have you back on the podcast, go into that. But the bottom line is though you're charging or you have a monthly fee that people pay and they have almost unlimited access to you one way or the other.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yes. That's how we frame it is instead of all of the copays and deductibles and you know, calling and pressing three and waiting 17 minutes to talk to a nurse, to get told to schedule an appointment. People just text us for the most part. And millennials and Gen Z who are most of our parents that are joining love texting, hate being on the phone, hate taking that time out of their day. They love the convenience factor of it. And honestly, we do too, because it's so much easier than getting voicemails and playing phone tag and all those things to just communicate in the means that works best for us and for parents. The monthly membership fee, they can pay with their HSA. It covers everything. So there's no outside expenses. If you want your kids ears pierced, that's separate, but otherwise we really don't have any other line items that people pay for.

The thing that I think I've loved probably as much as the way that I'm able to have those relationships with families with longer visits and getting to know them more and just coming to know that my patients are going to see me or one of our team members when they come into the office is that we're able to try new things at a much faster clip because we don't have 17 layers of meetings and committees and proven concepts. If we want to try something new, we can with relative ease. We fail at a fair number of the things that we try. They just don't work. But then we have successes that we're able to really jump on quickly.

One thing that we did shortly after starting our DPC practice, we were in the midst of the pandemic. We had a ton of N95 masks. We set it up so that teachers could get those. A couple of months later, we had the formula shortage. Instead of having 17 rounds of committees, we just said, well, what if we have a formula bank and we can just get people that have formula on their shelves at home. Their baby has outgrown the formula. They haven't used it yet. Bring it to the office. We can distribute it to other families that are in need.

Same thing with COVID vaccines. We're able to just really jump quickly on the things in the community that are important and respond to those by figuring things out and just having a really, we can figure this out attitude as a team. It's made a huge difference for me, just enjoying being able to practice medicine, but also to respond to parents' needs and community needs in a much more quick way where things don't have to go to vote after vote after vote and nitpicking all the details. We say we want to do this, and then we do it.

A couple of weeks ago, or no, maybe a month or two ago, we thought, okay, there's a lot of teenagers that need to learn CPR for babysitting because they have younger siblings and all those sorts of things. So we're like, well, let's just do CPR and first aid for teens.

A month after deciding this is something that we should do, we just had one yesterday where we had like 10 teenagers that came in and did CPR training and learned first aid. Just the ability to do things like that when we think of them and when we hear from our parents that this is what they need, and to be able to jump on that has been so rewarding for me.

John: That's impressive. It sounds really to be involved in that. It's fun. It's rewarding. On the parent side, it's probably fantastic as well, just to be able to access that. You mentioned texting and people's use of texting. I think that brings us to the one topic I definitely wanted to talk to you about, which was you developed and are selling a product, I think now, and it's kind of a side gig. Just tell us all about it. It's called OpenSpot, I believe.

Dr. Phil Boucher: OpenSpot. This was not on my bingo card, but a couple months after opening my DPC, an eye surgeon who works in the parking lot across the street from my practice had sent me a message on Instagram actually saying, "Hey, here's the problem I'm facing. I know that you are kind of a techie guy. Do you have any ideas?" His problem was he's booked out several months for new patients, but has a lot of last minute cancellations. Timmy's sick. We don't have transportation. We got a better offer. We're not coming in for our appointment tomorrow. He would be twiddling his thumbs not having patients to see despite being booked out three months because his staff couldn't get a hold of patients. They didn't have the bandwidth to just call and leave all these voicemails and play phone tag to try and fill tomorrow at 11:30, an opening that just popped up. He was asking, Do you have any sort of solutions?

I couldn't really find anything that did that, but had enough experience and willingness to try that I was like, I think we can create something. And so we put a MVP, a minimum viable product together where essentially they could keep a waitlist. And then when an opening arose, they could start texting their waitlist. These people are booked out two months. Hey, tomorrow we have an opening at 11:30. Does that work for you? Reply yes, if so, and it's yours or reply pass, and we'll move on to the next person.

And so, that was the concept. And it kind of took off because you could do the math of how much money that and revenue that can generate if you're filling those gaps in the appointment slots. And so what we did was we had that minimum viable product, and we tried it in some local practices. And in the process, I learned a lot about software as a service, which I was completely unfamiliar with before that, but was able to figure out, okay, here's how it works. Here's what we can offer. Here's the limitations that we have not being integrated with an EMR, which I was like, well, no one's going to want to use this. People don't really mind having two windows open. They probably use multiple software products throughout the course of their day anyways.

And so it's okay if it's not integrated, if it gets those appointment spots filled and practice managers actually like filling appointment spots, even if it creates a little bit of a headache for their staff and not having to call people on the phone really reduces that headache that could exist of, you need to get this spot filled. Well, what if we could just text people?

And so I got a little bit of some energy from the initial traction of OpenSpot and went to a couple of local venture capitalist firms and said, hey, this is what we're doing. And they were interested and invested. I went and did it's called Founder University. It was by Jason Calacanis, who's an investor, Silicon Valley guy, early stage in Uber and lots of money and interest in supporting others. And got in a cohort of his and did a pitch contest at the end, won that. So won $25,000 from him for that. And then locally, we had a startup week, Omaha startup week, did my pitch competition at that and actually won that and got another $25,000 from that.

There's a lot of money out there for people that have an idea and can spark interest and tell a good story that there's a lot of people that want to invest in those sorts of things. And then the biggest one was our Nebraska State Department of Economic Development wants to support and grow local businesses. So we got a grant for $100,000 from them to further our product development. And essentially they were paying to have it developed locally. And what that did is it allowed us to start developing the product, taking it from what I made, which was the minimum viable product, which was really the minimum viable product into something that was actually like fancy and pretty and used real code and all those sorts of things.

And so that's kind of been the journey of OpenSpot. The biggest thing that we added now, one of the functionalities, aside from like building the whole product from scratch, was if somebody if you text and say, Hey, John, does tomorrow at 11z;30 work to see Dr. Smith? No. Perfect. We'll keep you on the list. And then it just automatically goes to the next person. Hey, Mary, does tomorrow at 11:30 work? Yes. Perfect. It's your spot or no. Perfect. We'll go to the next person on the list. So really automating that for practices so that once they start and they say, Dr. Smith has an opening tomorrow at 11:30, it will just keep asking people until it finds somebody that will take the spot.

And so functionality like that has really made it easier for practices to get on board with. This is kind of like a set it and forget it. And it's going to keep asking and putting people asking for the next person in line over and over again until it finds somebody for that spot so the staff are really hands off.

John: So how does it get the list of people that are on the list? Does it integrate with the EMR now or with some scheduling?

Dr. Phil Boucher: It either integrates with the EMR or the schedulers just add them to the list for people that want to be on the list. Most practices nowadays will have a very rudimentary wait list functionality. It's often like a three ring binder or a notebook in a drawer. And so we elevate that by just having them have a place where they can put in the relevant information. This patient needs in with Dr. Smith. This patient doesn't care. They'll see whoever's available. This is how much time they need for their appointment, whatever the relevant details are that the schedulers used to make those appointments. We get them to capture that information. They sit on the list and then they can start just pinging and going down the list when they tell us that there's an opening available.

John: Very nice. It reminds me this whole idea of queuing theory people lining up. Family medicine for a while was really pushing for basically an open schedule with no appointments. In other words, you have to call within a day or two of your appointment because the longer your list is, the more you'll have no shows. It's just a correlation. So it sounds like you've solved the problem, get the best of both worlds, have a decent list of people out there. So you're sure you're going to use your resources and then show up. So was this you had to like start a separate business, an LLC or something and you just hire a bunch of software programmers or what?

Dr. Phil Boucher: I really started leaning with this, which was developing it myself and sitting at the computer until I figured out and practiced and made it work. That's part of the nice thing about being in DPC is I see fewer patients per day, which means I have more time for all of these other side things for good and for bad. We had to start a separate LLC, then we had to convert it to a Delaware C-Corp because what I learned is that VC firms want you to have a Delaware C-Corp something. I don't know the specifics, but that's a thing. Like if you think you're ever going to take investors money, then start with a Delaware C-Corp and you'll save yourself a fair amount of lawyer fees and hassles in that regard.

But yeah, those were the biggest things and just all the business stuff behind that, which is pretty typical and people set up businesses all the time. So, there's not anything that a doctor can't learn to do or hire somebody to help them do. But from there, then just figuring out how to market it and get in front of the right people. That's been a lot of trial and error is like who the decision makers are, who are the ones that are actually going to implement this, who's going to maintain it.

And it has mostly come down to the people that we need to talk to, maybe to get initial interests or physicians that say, yeah, this is a problem. I do have a lot of gaps in my schedule that I would like to fill because I don't really want to work more days and I don't really want to just pile more patients in. What if I could just be more efficient in the time that I have, which is filling those gaps in the schedule that creep up.

Because honestly, I think people are less enthusiastic about going to the doctor than in years past. Like you do see a lot more no-shows or last minute cancellations because I think the weight of going to the doctor has less meaning than it used to. And so people are more likely to skip or bail or take a better offer or cancel at the last minute.

And so, if we can get those people to make sure that they tell us within 24 hours, at least 24 hours notice, then we can usually fill those gap spots without having to spend hours on the phone and playing phone tag and all those sorts of things.

John: Well, one of the things that's probably threatening the most physicians is marketing, advertising, promoting, that sort of thing. So just to learn about that, why don't you just market your product to us right now? Tell us, I have physicians that are practicing here. So what are you doing to market it? But just tell us about the website and what we'll see if we go to the website and what we can expect from the product and that kind of thing.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yeah, essentially for most physicians, it's something that you're going to tell your office administrator, "Hey, we're really busy. We have a waiting list out the door, but we have a lot of unfilled appointment spots at the end of the day because of last minute cancellations." And what OpenSpot does is it allows you to fill those holes in the schedule without having your staff overburdened with trying to make phone calls and play phone tag. And it meets patients where they are, which is text messaging. And it just makes it easy for them.

Most physicians task their administrator of looking into it and taking those next steps when it comes to, is it the right fit for us and does it work with our practice workflow? And then the schedulers are the ones that are using it on the day-to-day basis. And so we try and make it make sense for schedulers to see the value of filling those spots, which makes everybody happy. And also not adding to their burden of making phone calls or who's talking to this one, or did somebody already offer this appointment? It just streamlines that entire process so that you know that there's something and it's not a person that could be doing other important work that's working to fill those spots.

John: Is this available nationally? Right now I can call you or go to your website?

Dr. Phil Boucher: Absolutely. Yes, findopenspot.com.

John: findopenspot.com. That's the website. Okay. And how long does it take to implement?

Dr. Phil Boucher: Less than a week. We do all the training and everything along those lines. Once people get set up, we find out what types of appointments they need and what types they have. Because one of the things that I've learned, being a pediatrician, I don't know how everybody else's scheduling flows work. Learning that dermatologists need more time for fillers than Botox seems like something that's intuitive to dermatologists, but it wasn't intuitive to me. And so, learning about the practice and the way that appointments are scheduled, which is just a quick Zoom with your scheduling team to figure out what that looks like, what the relevant information is, because it's all very specific for practices.

Some practices have really wide open schedules, some have very regimented schedules. And so, we're able to work with all of those, but it just takes a quick understanding from your schedulers, how they schedule, what they need to know to make a good appointment, what they don't care about when it comes to scheduling appointments, and then fine-tuning the system so that it gets the relevant information and can make good matches.

John: And let's see, it seems like in the old days, some software would sit on someone's server at their office, but I assume this is actually an app that gets integrated.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yes. It's all browser-based. Chrome browser, Safari browser, whatever browser you're using, it's just a different tab that you would have open that you would switch back and forth to. We've also set it up because it's working in the background. You don't want to have to kind of like tend to it. And so whatever system your practice uses, whether it be email or Slack or Teams, it integrates with those too. So it can say, hey, we filled the spot at 11:30 tomorrow and let this practice know so that they know that that booking has been made when it gets made.

John: And are you doing something actively to promote this besides, I don't know, just talking about it? How do you actually get the word out short of going person to person and calling them and say, hey, do you want this?

Dr. Phil Boucher: That's been the biggest challenge is figuring out the best way to get in front of the decision makers. Some of it's on LinkedIn, some of it's on podcasts and video. Some of it is trade shows. We've done some trade shows where you're talking at the Medical Group Management Association and those sorts of things. Those are all different routes of getting it out there, but it's kind of the approach which I've learned as a pediatrician and marketing my practice. You have to connect. You have to have a lot of touch points before people make that next step. It's not something where they just see it and they go and they sign up.

I'm kind of that way. I'm like an early adopter. I got the first Apple Watch and I'm still going strong with Apple Watches when I first heard about them. I don't have the Apple Vision Pro thing yet, but I think most people need a lot of touch points before they realize, hey, this is something that I need to look into.

I know that like the people that are listening to this, it's probably unlikely that they're going to go and just put in their credit card information and sign up. But if they hear from me and they see me on a bunch of different channels on a regular basis, then that probably is going to nudge them and eventually they're going to be like, hey, let me forward this to my office administrator. We should look into this because I frequently have all of these gaps in my schedule and I know the schedulers are too busy to be calling patients. And that's what it's going to take to actually get that first phone call and that discussion rolling.

I think that's something that I intuitively knew and was reminded of over and over again, is that it takes a lot of touch points for people to do something about it. And also when there's a little bit of change involved, that it's going to take a lot of time from a change management perspective.

John: And if they go to findopenspot.com, is there a contact form or do they sign up to do a call with you or how does that work?

Dr. Phil Boucher: Usually people just book a demo. We chat through and figure out if it's a good fit even, and then from there decide how to integrate it into their workflows if that's something that they're looking for. But the easiest way is just to book a demo that's free and you just book it straight from there and it's a Zoom call where we can talk through what they're looking for.

John: And you told me as we were organizing this meeting that, oh, you thought you'd create some other software, another tool. So why don't you quickly give us a rundown on where you are with that, what it does. Are you in the same business or is this now another business?

Dr. Phil Boucher: I'd say this is just a spinoff of OpenSpot, in terms of lie the hierarchy of businesses. OpenSpot is great for busy practices that are full and they've got a wait list of at least four weeks and they're really trying to fill those gaps. They're trying to increase efficiency.

As a DPC pediatrician, I get to talk with a lot of DPC doctors, both in family medicine and internal medicine and in pediatrics and specialty care. And one of the things that they need, they don't have full practices and long wait lists. I don't have a wait list. We don't use OpenSpot in my practice. If you need an appointment today, John, you would just text and say, hey, my son fell and I think he needs stitches. And we would just text back and say, come on over. There's not a wait in that capacity for DPC.

But what they need to do is they need to really have a lot of touch points with prospective patients to get them to say, okay, this is the practice for me, or I understand how this works and how it'd be beneficial. And so, what we created then for that side of practices, small practices, growing practices, startup practices, is essentially a HIPAA compliant CRM. CRM is Client Relationship Manager in business speak. But essentially it's a way to manage the relationship and manage the outreach and touch points with potential customers, potential patients in a way that helps them stay organized, know who's reached out, know where people are at in the pipeline of their customer journey of initial reach out, learning more, book a meet and greet, join the practice, loss to follow up, those sorts of things.

And so, what practice leads does is it allows for small practices to manage those leads as they come in and nurture them along to the point where then they're taking that next step. Because what I found was a lot of practices are really good at the first touch points or meeting patients at the baby expo or the health convention or whatever it might be, but then they were losing them to follow up because they just weren't making enough touch points with them to stay top of mind.

Because most people today aren't looking for a new doctor and you really have to convince them that there's something better for them. But over time, you can do that if you have enough touch points, enough nurture points, if you're able to talk to them on a regular enough basis to say, hey, maybe there is a better way, or maybe we offer something that your regular practice doesn't, or maybe we have a special evaluation that we do that we need to explain in a little bit more depth to you how we do it and what we do.

And so, what Practice Leads does is it allows you to track those leads as they come in, nurture them along, have one place, one inbox that has text message, email, contact us forms, Instagram, Facebook, all of that in one continuous stream of information so that you're not looking in seven different places to remember where somebody contacted you and how they reached you and what their deal is. That's what Practice Leads is. It's a HIPAA compliant CRM for small and growing practices.

John: Very nice. So that is up and running now and accessible to the practicing physicians?

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yes. And the thing that I love about it, one, is that it's HIPAA compliant, and two, is that it lets you do it all in one place, and three, is it's completely customizable. And so, the way that we use that in my practice is we've been doing a lot of ADHD evaluations. Before somebody books an ADHD evaluation with me, they probably want to know that I know what I'm talking about and that I'm not just going to push medicines on them because most people these days want to try things other than medicines.

The way that we work that is they start with a webinar that's free and on demand, and it's about how food impacts our child's behavior and attention and focus. And then from there, they get a series of emails and text messages that share more about our process and what we do and how we do it and what an evaluation looks like and what it doesn't look like and who it's good for and who doesn't really need it. And here's some other strategies that you can implement before you get to an evaluation.

And over time, we build trust, we build rapport, we build that trust factor that really is important before somebody decides, I'm going to book an evaluation. And so, what Practice Leads does is allows us to monitor those parents, as they're going through the process of watching the webinar, opening emails, reading blog posts, reading news articles that we send them. It allows you to automate that process so you know where they're at in that funnel that you've created to get them to eventually, over enough touch points, decide they're the right practice for me. I want to get an ADHD evaluation. This is timely because school is starting sooner. We're really struggling with this and that or the other thing. You build that relationship and you're the one that they turn to then when they actually need something.

John: Excellent. Well, what's the website for that?

Dr. Phil Boucher: GetPracticeLeads.com.

John: GetPracticeLeads.com. Okay, obviously, I'll put that in the show notes along with the OpenSpot link as well. And actually, the link to your practice because I think people will find it interesting just to see what you look like online when people are thinking about joining your practice.

Well, this is very interesting. I'm definitely going to follow up with you down the road here and see how things are going. Any last advice? I guess I'm going to stop there. Any last advice though about, I don't know, it seems like things are exciting with what you're doing. Just practicing in the US, is it possible to make it fun and profitable at the same time for physicians?

Dr. Phil Boucher: I think it is, but I don't think that you're going to find as much fun stuck in an organization or a large institution. And I think more physicians are getting really hip to that. This that we've been sold, the large employer, they often trade autonomy and care for more RVUs. And what that means for physicians often is that they feel like they're not anywhere near the top of the food chain. And they're often feel very replaceable and just like a cog in the wheel. And I think that you can have a lot more fun and enjoy medicine and practice medicine the way that you want when you have more control over the way that you practice it. And I think physicians are often afraid because they feel like business is too hard.

Because I graduated from medical school 15 years ago, 16 years ago, something like that. We got no business training at all. And it feels like maybe it was intentional because they want to grow academics and they want to grow large institutional employees. And so, why would we tell you about business? Business is hard. How are you going to figure out your books? How are you going to do bookkeeping and taxes? Those things sound hard. Let's just keep you at the academic center or at the large organization and you'll be miserable. But at least you won't have to do those things.

But then I talked to physicians and there's a million new small businesses that open in the US every single year. Most of the small business people that are opening these businesses don't have the training, don't have the cash flow, don't have the connections that every physician in the country has.

And so, I always encourage people there's a way to figure out how to go into business for yourself and to practice medicine or to serve the people that you feel called to serve, which for me, I love taking care of parents and families locally. I love helping other physicians to grow their practices. I love helping thriving practices to thrive even more or to get physicians their time back so that they can do with it what they like, whether it's being more efficient in their day to day, whether it's growing their practice with marketing, whatever it might be to give them more autonomy and more freedom to do what's really important to them and to focus on those sorts of things.

There's a way to figure all those things out. But it does take a little bit of risk, but you've done risky things before. It does take a little bit of learning, but you've learned for decades now. You can do all these things if you just feel like, okay, maybe there's another way to do it because there's a lot of people out there that are really unhappy in their practices. I can't spend that much time on the physician Facebook groups anymore because there's so much negativity and it's not their fault. It's the system that they're a part of and that they're forced to work within that's really causing a lot of that burnout and a lot of that cynicism that you see in a lot of the Facebook groups.

But there's another way and it can be really fun and it can be really profitable and you can really enjoy your life more. I wake up and I am ready to go and I have these long lists of things to do. I wish I could do all the things that are on my list every day, but I have a really good team that helps me to hone down what I actually need to do and then they do the other things that help me to thrive. It's just such a fun way to practice and it's such a fun career of helping everybody that I can help.

John: Fantastic. Very inspirational. You rock, man. I love what you're saying. I agree with it. If I was 20 years younger, I might jump in myself, but I can at least get the word out and you've been very helpful in getting that word out today, Phil. Please do.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Please do. I know I give you my cell phone number. You can put that in the show notes and just tell anybody that wants to. I'm decent in email. I'm getting better at email, but the best way to reach me is to text because it's hard for me to ignore when my little green box on the thing says one or 12 or whatever. Text me. Anyone out there, any physician out there can absolutely text me to chat and figure out how to help them.

It's not to get you to join OpenSpot or Practice Leads or anything like that. It's just I love helping and I love brainstorming for physicians. I think that there are very few specialties where you can't do something outside the box of what you're doing right now. I don't know how heart surgeons can work outside of a large center, but everyone else that doesn't require a cardiopulmonary bypass can figure out something outside of the hospital if they're sick of being an employed physician and want to do something else.

John: I'll definitely put that in the show notes. You listeners look in there and they have the number. You can text Phil or reach out and check this out however way you want to. I will do that. All right, Phil. With that, I am going to say goodbye and let you go. I hope to talk to you again in the near future.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yeah, let's not have four years pass between our next chat.

John: Okay, bye now.

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Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Building the Private Practice of the Future with Technology appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Today we provide an inspiring story and learn how to become an IME (Independent Medical Examiner) from an expert orthopedic surgeon in this classic episode from 2021.

Dr. Emily Woolcock is an internationally recognized speaker, best-selling author, mentor, and consultant. She is among the country’s most well-known orthopedic surgeons. Dr. Woolcock is board-certified by the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery and the American Board of Independent Medical Examiners.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Dr. Woolcock Begins Doing IMEs

Dr. Woolcock founded businesses in Georgia, Florida, and Maryland. They include the Orthopedic and Joint Replacement Institute, the Accident Rehabilitation Center, and National Orthopedic Consultants. In 2016 she established the IME Academy. Through the Academy, she teaches students to perform defensible, literature-based independent medical examinations.

Emily is passionate about helping other physicians. So she helps them break free from the work/life balance issues she experienced early in her career. As a wife and mother, she understands the struggles physicians and other healthcare professionals face. 

When she first began experiencing burnout, she found that a skill she learned in residency could solve her problem. She began performing highly compensated independent medical exams. By doing IME consulting and delegating nonclinical work to team members she cut back on her office and operating room commitments.

How to Become an IME

Emily is a very creative and dedicated physician. She balances clinical work, performing IMEs, writing books, and mentoring dozens of young people. She is busy. Yet, she loves her work. And she is not burned out. 

This is the first time I had a guest with the expertise to explain how to become an IME. It is similar to what an expert witness does. But it also involves examining patients, which some of you might find more compelling as a side job.

Like expert witness work, learning to be an IME pays very well. You generally must continue to practice medicine, at least part-time.

Find out what makes you happy and learn to  integrate that with your vocational calling and you will be a much better, well-rounded person. – Dr. Emily Woolcock

Emily provided inspiration and valuable information. She knows this topic well. If you’re interested in learning to be an IME you can find her course at theimeacademy.com.

Summary

Dr. Emily Woolcock describes her inspirational story. She discovered a way to reduce her work time while producing more income by performing Independent Medical Examinations. In this interview, she explains how you can do the same and improve your work-life balance. 

Links for Today's Episode:

• The IME Academy
• Dr. Emily Woolcock Website
• Dr. Emily Woolcock LinkedIn Page
• My Doctor Looks Like Me, by Emily d. Woolcock, MD (female ver.)
• My Doctor Looks Like Me, by Emily Woolcock, MD (male ver.)
• Mi Doctor Looks Like Me, by Emily Woolcock, MD (Spanish ver.)
• Looks Like Me Books Facebook Page

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post How to Become an IME: A PNC Classic from 2021 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In this week's show, an interview from the archives with Dr.Laura McKain explains how to land a pharma clinical development job.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast. The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

From Clinical Medicine to Clinical Development

Laura received her medical degree from Georgetown University in Washington, DC, and completed her training in obstetrics and gynecology at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia. She was in private practice for twelve years where her clinical interests included well-women care, contraception, HPV, menopause management, as well as general and high-risk obstetrics.

Anybody that feels miserable and trapped… You may feel like you have no options but, I promise you, you have a thousand different options. – Dr. Laura McKain

Subsequently, Laura transitioned her career to the pharmaceutical industry. There she was involved in clinical development projects encompassing various therapeutic areas. During her tenure, she brought two new therapeutics to market.

Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job

She recently retired from full-time work. That allowed her to focus on helping other physicians find new nonclinical careers. She does that in several ways. And she is very confident that almost any physician in practice can make a move to a pharmaceutical job.

She is a career coach and resumé expert at mckainconsulting.com. And, she founded the Physician Nonclinical Career Hunters Facebook Group. Opened 8 years ago, it now serves 30,000+ members. It is the premier group to connect with other physicians, find job openings, and obtain valuable advice and mentorship about nonclinical careers.

During our interview, she described the tactics she recommends to find a clinical development job. She also defines job descriptions used in the pharma industry, and which jobs are the easiest to secure.

Summary

Dr. McKain provides lots of actionable advice in today's interview. She is a great resource for information and coaching about nonclinical careers. And she continues to grow her popular Facebook Group where you can learn more about how to land a pharma clinical development job.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Laura McKain's Website
• Physician Nonclinical Career Hunters Facebook Group
• The Best Biopharma Positions For Motivated Practicing Physicians
• Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311
• Research and Development in Nonclinical Pharma Careers
• Medical Science Liaison Is Still a Fantastic Pharma Job – 261
• Highlight These 5 Experiences to Land Your First Pharma Job – 242
• Use These Simple Tactics to Land a Fantastic First Pharma Job – 209
• How to Find a Job in Pharma That You Love – 184
• How to Claim Your First Job in Industry – 168
• Nonclinical Physicians YouTube Channel
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit (Use Coupon Code 30-OFF)

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 214

How Does a Physician Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job?

John: Today on the podcast I really hope to bring more clarity to the issue of jobs and pharma, particularly those in clinical development. My guest today is definitely an expert in this topic. She's a physician coach. She's a resume consultant or expert, whatever you want to call it. And she's also the founder of The Physician Nonclinical Career Hunters Facebook group, which I think most of you know about. Dr. Laura McKain, hello, and welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Laura McKain: Hi John. What a great pleasure to finally be here with you today.

John: I know. We've known each other for quite a while and it's like, why have we not been able to get together on this thing? But it just happens that way sometimes. Yeah, I've been really looking forward to talking to you, and my listeners probably know this, but you have so many areas of expertise and you've been doing this for so long. It's not just the pharma part, but the helping physician's part that I'm already going to put a bug in your ear about coming back on the podcast to cover another topic sometime in the future.

But we're going to really pick your brain today. First thing we need to do is just learn a little bit more about you. I have a separate intro that I did, but give us high points of your background and your career and what you're doing now.

Dr. Laura McKain: Absolutely. I'm a board-certified obstetrician gynecologist. I practiced in private practice for 12 years before transitioning over to pharma more than 13 years ago actually. I worked first in a couple of contract research organizations. And then I took a big leap and moved over to a startup biotech company on the west coast. Actually, I just recently retired from that company, after my drug got approved. I'm just tremendously passionate about my own career. Actually, I think I've had two careers, as well as my career transition from clinical medicine. And I am just incredibly passionate about assisting other physicians to make sure that they're really satisfied in their professional life.

John: That's fantastic. There has been such a demand over the last few years. And I don't know about you, I assume you've seen the same thing, but it was sort of something that people didn't ever talk about or didn't know about until now there are just physicians all over the place, including in the Facebook group looking for help and making the transition. That maybe doesn't bode well for the practice of medicine and all the hardships that are driving that, but it's definitely something that's growing.

Dr. Laura McKain: I absolutely agree. And I'm hoping that physicians can find perhaps other ways to find work-life balance without necessarily completely leaving clinical medicine.

John: Yeah. I think we talked a lot about making a transition, but always building it on that background in medicine, the knowledge of healthcare. Pharma is an awesome place to do that in my opinion. I've never worked in pharma, but we've interviewed MSLs and medical monitors and others, but really have had minimal exposure to the topic I hope to talk to you about today, which is clinical development or drug development. Tell me a little bit about what is that? I think we have our own understanding about it. It has to do with bringing drugs to market, but tell us what clinical development is as a division in pharma and what it does.

Dr. Laura McKain: Absolutely. Clinical development truly it's a blanket term that is used to define the entire process of bringing a new drug or a device to the market. It includes everything from the folks in the lab that are doing drug discovery, actually looking for molecules that might work, to the folks that are in product development, including the preclinical research, that may be done in microorganisms or in animals to early-stage clinical development where people are doing first in human studies to the later phases of clinical development, which involved the large clinical trials on humans that lead more directly to approval of a new drug. It's a broad range and there are actually a lot of different roles for physicians across clinical development.

John: Now, when I think about physicians in clinical development, I think about those maybe who went directly into academics, or they were doing research as part of their training. But what I think you and I tend to run into are physicians who have already been in practice for a while, they're thinking of leaving and now they want to transition back into some aspects. Maybe give us a little bit more of an idea of what jobs are in there that would be the most appropriate for physicians looking to go from clinical into that division of work.

Dr. Laura McKain: I think there are a lot of options and some of them may actually be things that physicians haven't even really thought about, particularly ones that still actually rely upon a lot of physician's clinical skills. One of them to start out with, and I'm going to start before a physician actually becomes employed by either a contract research organization or actual pharma company is to be a principal investigator in clinical trials. While you're still interacting with patients, it's very different than having a sick patient come to you for an answer.

When you're a clinical investigator, you're actually conducting industry sponsored clinical trials that are aimed toward getting a drug approved. And it is a fabulous role for somebody who feels like they have no experience in pharma or they feel like they don't have anything that they could put on a resume to get them their foot in the door with pharma. It's a great way for physicians to work on building that book of experience to make that transition.

And there are a lot of different settings for principal investigators that they can use their skills and to build this experience. For instance, they could work for actually large phase one units, which there are many across the country, where you're actually a full-time employee and you are enrolling patients, oftentimes, folks who are participating first in man trials, or they are doing studies like pharmacokinetic studies, to understand how new drugs are metabolized. Many of these types of facilities are actually inpatient facilities because they sometimes need to keep the patients for days in order to do the needed studies on them. They love employing emergency medicine physicians in this role, because again, it's a first demand drug. So, it's a great use of skills.

But there are also a lot of freestanding dedicated research sites that are either privately held or that a lot of physicians develop on their own to do later phase clinical trials. Think about like "Where did all of our trials that got us COVID 19 vaccines come from?" They were not done at academic institutions. Some of them definitely were done at academic institutions, but a lot of them were done in freestanding clinical research sites with principal investigators that were family practice docs or internists or from other specialties.

John: Okay. I'm going to dig into this a little bit, just to clarify for me and the listeners. Let me just give an example. I'm at a hospital where I was a CMO and we had an IRB and I sat on the IRB and we had these protocols come through. Most of those were external. And then we had people that were on staff at the hospital as part of that study, but would they be called a principal investigator or they would be an actual site from a study that was being produced either by the company directly or a CRO? How does that work?

Dr. Laura McKain: It really kind of depends upon how things are contracted, but you're right. Some physicians who are acting as a principal investigator, they may use their local institutional review board, the IRB, the committee that's required to review protocols to ensure that they are appropriate for patients. They may use a local IRB to conduct this research, but something that you may not know is that there are a lot of what we call central institutional review boards. IRB is that free standing units, not associated in any way with a hospital or an academic institution will use as their approval body for conducting this research.

Again, it really varies. There are some physicians that even act as a principal investigator within their own practice. They use a central IRB to get that approved. And they do it just part time. I've conducted many studies with lots of investigators who have that sort of setup. And then some of them love it so much they transitioned more and more away from actually seeing regular care patients and move toward doing clinical research on a full-time basis.

So, there are a lot of different settings where clinical research gets done. Academic institutions, hospitals, privately held investigational sites and then mom and pop organizations that physicians have started on their own.

John: All right. I hope I wasn't confusing anyone that's listening about the IRB. I think our IRB when we were involved with, let's say a national study and we happened to be at site, we were more just monitoring it. And there was a central IRB that approved the overall protocol, but we might have an oncologist on staff who was just enrolling patients into a study or urologist. I think he was more involved with procedures or in ortho doing certain implants. So, that did give them an exposure. And I didn't personally know anyone that used that and went into more of a full-time, but you're saying that's definitely a segue where you can say, "Look, I've been doing these studies, I've been monitoring patients. And so, why not do that full-time or something like that?"

Dr. Laura McKain: Absolutely. I've worked with lots of folks that have been principal investigators for industry sponsored research, and have used that as leverage to get a job with a pharma company. Absolutely. It's a great way because you already know how protocols work. You know so much that you would need to be able to know from the other side to be a medical monitor or what have you.

John: Would those people look at the firms, the companies that they were helping with their own study, or they look somewhere else? They say, "Look, I've got this experience in oncology" as the easiest way to use the company that they're already affiliated with, or could they just go to a CRO or some other company?

Dr. Laura McKain: Oncology is kind of a separate beast in terms of clinical development. Let's kind of just set that aside because a lot of oncologists, as part of their regular practice, do offer their patients the opportunity oftentimes last-ditch effort to enroll in study. So that's a little bit different. Let's talk about developing a new diabetes drug, or as I said, a vaccine. I did women's health studies. Those spokes are how they get their studies, how they find them really varies. Generally, some of them begin because they have relationships with contract research organizations, or they may work through what's called an SMO - Site Management Organization who helps them to find studies. And then there are some people who have just been doing it for so long that the companies come to them when they have a potential study. So, there are a variety of different ways here.

John: Okay. I guess that brings me to the question then, how would a physician other than being involved in something like that position themselves to move into pharma more directly? Are there things they can do beyond that that would help bolster their resume? What kind of suggestions would you have for that?

Dr. Laura McKain: You mean beyond being a principal investigator?

John: Yes. Or instead of if they haven't happened to be a principal investigator.

Dr. Laura McKain: I think there are a number of things that physicians can do to demonstrate that they have an understanding of how clinical trials work and what the work that they may be doing at a contract research organization or a pharma company. It definitely helps if you've got some clinical research experience but it could be something just as simple as being a real supporter of clinical research and being somebody who refers your patients to potential clinical trials. Getting great familiarity with clinical trials through that sort of pathway. So, physicians, let's say gastroenterologist. They have patients who have Crohn's disease which is very difficult to treat and they haven't found the right drug. They may help their patients find clinical trials to enroll in to offer them other potential options for successful treatment. That's definitely one way.

Other ways if you're a physician and you have absolutely no experience, would be to do a lot of reading, quite frankly. Really pay attention when new drugs are getting approved. Really look at sort of what the end product of new drug approvals are. And specifically, that's the prescribing information. Those long little leaflets that come that come with the drug. They're like 27 pages long. That's the end result of a clinical development project and really understanding what's in those documents and studying those sorts of documents and understanding the lingo and how they get to it. Looking at the published trials that come from new drug development, the pivotal phase three trials that are submitted as part of the new drug application.

Just getting that education and being well versed in it, being able to speak about it is great. If you're involved with drug reps at all, getting the word out that you're potentially an early adopter of a particular product and asking to speak with your regional medical science liaison to develop relationships with an MSL, to maybe get on a speaker's bureau for a drug. Actually, that was one of the ways that I got into the industry. I had been part of a number of speakers' bureaus for products that I really, really, really believed in. And that counted for me as being industry experienced, believe it or not.

I think another important thing is to potentially become a key opinion leader in your area. Choose some niche in your practice, something that's really of interest. Particularly, it's kind of nice if it's something where they're doing ongoing research. And become an expert. You should be the person that people refer patients to, have passion for it, really specialize in it.

And then last, but certainly not least what I always say is you should be networking. You should be networking. You should find people in the industry, find out what they do, do informational interviews with them, et cetera, et cetera. And those sorts of experiences can help you get your foot in the door with either a contract research organization or with a pharma company.

John: Does it seem like one works better than the other in terms of a CRO versus directly with a pharma company or does it just depend?

Dr. Laura McKain: I think there are certain specialties that can leap over to pharma much more easily. We already mentioned it, oncologists. If you're an oncologist out there listening, getting a job in pharma, it's as easy as falling off a log. I'm exaggerating, I know I'm exaggerating, but there are some specialties that are in tremendous domains. There are other specialties that I think have a much more difficult time. I've worked with a couple of folks like radiologists. I have really had a hard time trying to find an avenue for radiologists to get in. I'm not saying it's impossible because I know radiologists who've worked in clinical development, but it's probably a little bit more tough. Although even with that, there are angles for their careers.

We're kind of getting off on a tangent here, but there are companies that provide services to clinical trials, where they do very standardized assessments of certain diagnostic studies. A radiologist could go to work for one of these companies that does what we call "centralized readings" to make sure everyone's x-rays or what have you gets read in exactly the same way using exactly the same criteria. And I've worked with many radiologists who've gotten into that business. So, there are a lot of different avenues. There are lots of possibilities depending upon your specialty. Nothing's really off the table.

John: Very interesting. It can be overwhelming in a way. But you mentioned the KOL or key opinion leader and influencers and so forth. I mean, that's kind of the jargon they've heard from MSLs for example, and I'm sure there's a lot of other jargon. So, what about the titles themselves? What would be the jobs that a physician is looking at getting? Is it a medical director position? Is it a clinical scientist? If they're just trying to look around now, maybe look on Indeed or LinkedIn or somewhere just to look at a job description, what should they look up if they're looking for that kind of a job at a CRO or a pharma company?

Dr. Laura McKain: Sure. It does depend upon how much experience you have and where you might need to aim if you're looking to work for a contract research organization or for a pharma company.

I would say that generally speaking, a board-certified licensed physician who's looking to make this transition but maybe you don't have a lot of experience. I think a safe job title to pull up is an associate medical director position. And if you're entering it into LinkedIn, I put "Associate medical director clinical development", very specifically to look for those sorts of jobs. At a contract research organization, you're that type of role. You're really going to be serving as what we call a medical monitor.

It's actually not very common to find jobs titled as medical monitors. You can find them, but they're less common. Typically, the overarching term is an associate medical director or a medical director. But you would be performing that sort of role. You would be monitoring clinical trials, providing medical oversight to clinical trials in an associate medical director role in clinical development.

Going up the food chain from their medical director, senior medical director, executive medical director, some companies do or do not have this would lead them into a VP role. And then ultimately to a chief medical officer role. Obviously, those are all demanding experiences, but associate medical director is a good place to start.

For some people, even that may be kind of too high to aim. And another role that you can look for is a role as what's called a clinical scientist. And you can find those at pharma companies and also some contract research organizations. A clinical scientist is kind of the right hand to the medical monitor on a clinical trial. They still need to have a lot of clinical experience. They need to be very familiar and know a lot clinically to be able to review data.

They will play supportive roles to medical monitors, particularly on really high-volume studies. Again, I keep going back to our recent example of, "How did we get these COVID vaccines?" I guarantee there was like an army of clinical scientists out there that were helping to monitor the data, and to summarize it for the applications which got us emergency use authorization.

But clinical scientist is a great entry role. You'll find some physicians in that role, you'll find potentially foreign ex-US trained physicians in that role, but you'll also find PharmDs and even PhDs in that role. But it can be a potential place to get your foot in the door.

And then let's talk about the person who perhaps graduated medical school, but didn't do a residency or somebody who didn't complete a residency, or again, I'll even go back to somebody who graduated or trained outside of the US who's never been licensed here.

You talk enough about this, or we don't talk enough about that group of people, but there are roles in clinical development for those folks also. And I have worked with many people with the background that I've just described who serve as a role as a clinical research associate. And they often work for contract research organizations and they are fully trained on clinical trial protocols. And they actually go to the sites that are conducting the research. I'm really simplifying this, but they ensure that the data has integrity, that it's not fraudulent data, that it's been entered into the database correctly, that the site has conducted the study according to the protocol, with like I said, great integrity and they reported everything that they need to report.

Those clinical research associate roles are extraordinarily important. They definitely require a great medical background. I often see nurses in that role, other paramedical people in that role, but I've also, like I said, I've seen foreign trained MDs in that role. And it can be a foot in the door for pharma.

I built a drug safety team at one of the companies that I worked at. And I actually promoted a couple of people who had served as CRA's clinical research associates to drug safety physicians because they had all the medical know-how and they knew about clinical trials and they were great people to promote up to a more traditional physician role. So, there are lots of opportunities out there.

John: Oh, that's very helpful. I don't want to digress too much, but you mentioned this person, just this last bit here, that they were promoted into a safety role. This is just because in my mind, I'm trying to keep the parts of a pharma in my head and I tend to break them down into sections. So, I kind of think of the safety as standing by itself. It's not really part of clinical development. I don't think it's part of medical affairs. It doesn't kind of straddle all those things because it's maintaining safety.

Dr. Laura McKain: It does. Think about the role that safety plays in clinical development. When a company is developing a drug, there are two things that they are trying to establish. They're trying to establish the efficacy of the drug and also the safety of the drug. If the drug isn't safe, it doesn't matter if it's effective or not. You can't approve it. The pharmacovigilance department, the drug safety folks played an enormous role in clinical development.

And in fact, the clinical development people work very closely with the safety folks. And there is a ton of communication that goes on between the two groups. They review and analyze data together. Although the clinical development people are responsible for collecting the data, the pharmacovigilance people are really important in terms of meeting the regulatory requirements during development, but also, they play a huge role in the development of the actual applications when they go in. There is a ton of overlap.

And I'll tell you, John, that folks who work at contract research organizations, their positions that they get as a medical director are oftentimes really hybrid positions where they are responsible for medical monitoring, but they also can play a huge role in safety and they get very well versed in the regulatory requirements about both of those.

Of course, it's my experience, but I think contract research organizations are an amazing learning field for physicians who want to get into industry because you really get a broad view of things and you get to work with a bunch of different pharma companies to see how things are done differently at different companies. And it makes it much easier I believe to go onto pharma from there.

John: That is very helpful because we need to know how to get our first job. That's the hardest part I think from what I understand. Once you're in, then you can look around, you can continue to grow and learn and maybe shift. I just want to summarize things here though. I want to go back to the beginning. I'm in a position where

I'm thinking about doing something like this, but at the beginning, as you said, do your research, learn as much as you can, network. And I would assume also in some cases like physicians you've helped, get a coach, maybe that can help navigate this with you, if necessary, because it can get very confusing. Are you still doing coaching for physicians at this time?

Dr. Laura McKain: Absolutely, I do. I do work with individual physicians. And I'll be honest, I've really sort of narrowed my focus. I was kind of taking all commerce for a while, but I really have honed in on folks that are more interested in moving into pharma. I work with them to help them really mine their own background, their own experience to find those transferable skills that make them qualified for pharma. But I also can coach them on finding opportunities to build that runway to make the leap over.

John: All right. I do have to put the plug in now. It's at www.mckainconsulting.com.

Dr. Laura McKain: Yes. And check the show notes to make sure you get my last name spelled because it's a tricky one.

John: Right, right. So, that's one way you're helping people. Now, you're also helping them through the Facebook group so we have to spend a few minutes talking about that. Give us the entire history of the Facebook group in two seconds. No, I'm kidding. Just give us an overview of what's going on there.

Dr. Laura McKain: I established it five years ago, really just because of my own passion around this amazing second career that I've had. I really love my clinical career but I just feel like I've had this amazing second career I've gotten to. I've had two drugs that have gotten approved. I've literally traveled the world. I've gone to see how medicine is practiced all over the world. It's really been phenomenal. I just feel really privileged to have been able to do this. And after I got out of clinical medicine, I had lots of physicians, friends, and whatnot coming to me, "How would you do? How would you do it? How would you do it?" And I started the group to try to answer that question. And it has grown extraordinarily organically.

John, you've been an absolutely important administrator for the group for many years that have really helped us to truly grow organically. I mean, the group has sort of grown on its own. I will say. There has not been a lot of effort that's gone towards building it. We're up to almost 17,000 members at this point. We're fortunate that we've got a number of different experts in a variety of nonclinical settings that are really offering expertise to the group.

And then most recently, I made some changes in the group. And now because it's becoming more work to administer the group, we have a number of awesome sponsors for the group. John, you're one of our platinum sponsors for the group because of all of the contributions that you've made. But there have been a couple of individuals and one company that have stepped up to provide a little bit of financial support to kind of keep the thing moving and rolling.

But it's a great place for physicians to come to get exposed to people that are doing a variety of different things, non-clinically, as well as getting advice about navigating a transition. I think more and more our group is also helping to assist physicians who are just really feeling burnt out and maybe transitioning out of medicine isn't the right thing. But I think some of them are all saying they are finding appropriate connections within the group. "Maybe I just need to change my clinical practice and stay". So, I think we're beginning to kind of service that group also.

John: Well, that's good. That's awesome. And you're right. A lot of it is basically just people that are unhappy and they'd need support and they're getting encouragement with all physicians, 100% physicians, obviously. Yeah, I like all the new changes that you've made in the last several months and I think there are more coming. But it's a great place to go if you just don't know where to go, who to ask for advice on how to move into a nonclinical career or something like direct patient primary care or concierge med. All these things that are alternatives to the traditional practice that may be causing your brain to fry physically.

Dr. Laura McKain: A lot of the stressors seem to come from some sort of corporate medicine right now. People really do need to know that there are alternatives there and for anybody out there who's listening that feels miserable and trapped, you have to know that you may feel like you have no options, but I promise you, you have a thousand different options. It just takes some courage to find the thing that'll work for you. It may be something nonclinical, but you know what? I think there is also a great chance that there are answers if you want to stay in clinical medicine. Probably not what you expected me to say today, John.

John: No, no. I have guests on frequently that it's like if you can figure out a way to practice that isn't corporate medicine, because it's just killing you then by all means, do it. I certainly want to have a doctor for myself.

Dr. Laura McKain: Oh, yeah. And there are maybe people that can do things part time. Like I said there are a lot of people who have a clinical practice, but they also act as a principal investigator and that variety in their life makes things more doable for them. There's a lot of different ways to find happiness professionally. And I encourage everyone to do it. Don't wait. This is not a dress rehearsal.

John: Absolutely. I'll put a link to the Facebook group, but if you look up "Physician Nonclinical Careers" or "Nonclinical Careers", you'll find the Facebook group. I would encourage if you're not already a member to join there. There is a little vetting. You have to answer some questions, but if you're a physician, you can join. Is there anything else I'm missing in terms of places we should look for you? I think you're on LinkedIn, for sure.

Dr. Laura McKain: I think that's plenty. I'm in the Facebook group every day, now that I'm retired. Of course, once I've retired, I've got little quotation marks. I'm still doing pharma consulting and some other things, but I'm really doing it on my terms now. But the Facebook group definitely is a place to find me and mckainconsulting.com is another place.

John: All right. Well, it looks like we're about at the end here. Any last bits of advice for the listeners today?

Dr. Laura McKain: The last piece I would say is that if you're really seriously considering transition, I accomplished my transition solo and I don't recommend that. I think that now there are so many more resources and places to go for help. Rather than groping your way in the dark, reach out for help. It's worth it. I swear to you, I'm not trying to sell coaching services. I just hate to see people struggle. There are opportunities for people to get real professional help that can make the process much more efficient.

John: Very good words of wisdom there, reach out for help. And it goes all the way back at the beginning, when you were talking about networking and talking to others and learning. So, that's great. All right, Laura, thank you very much for joining us today. I'm definitely going to hold you to come back again and talk about some other things. So, with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Laura McKain: Bye John. Thank you.

John: You're welcome. Bye-bye.

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Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job: A PNC Classic from 2021 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

How to Start Your Own Medical Writing Business: A Practical Guide

Starting your own medical writing business can be both exciting and challenging. Whether you're an experienced medical writer or a healthcare professional looking to transition into writing, setting up your business involves several important steps. Here’s a straightforward guide to help you get started.

1. Identify Your Niche
   First, define the kind of medical writing you want to specialize in. The field includes technical writing for pharmaceutical companies, journalistic writing for physicians and patients, and writing continuing medical education (CME) manuscripts. Knowing your niche will help you target clients and tailor your marketing efforts.
2. Create a Business Plan
   A business plan is your roadmap to success. Outline your goals, target audience, pricing strategy, and marketing plan. Here’s what to include:
   • Mission Statement: Define why the organization exists, what its overall goal is, the kind of product or service it provides, and its primary customers or market.
   • Market Analysis: Research your target market and competitors.
   • Services Offered: List the types of writing you plan to provide.
   • Pricing Strategy: Set your rates based on industry standards and your experience.
   • Marketing Plan: Plan how you will reach potential clients, including creating a website, leveraging social media, and networking.
3. Choose Your Business Structure
   Decide on the legal structure for your business—sole proprietorship, LLC, or corporation. Each has its own legal and tax implications. It might be worth consulting a business attorney or accountant. Also, don't forget to register your business name and get any necessary licenses or permits.
4. Build an Online Presence
   In today's world, having a professional online presence is crucial. Create a website that showcases your services, portfolio, and contact information. Consider including:
   • About: Share your background and qualifications.
   • Services: Detail the writing services you offer.
   • Portfolio: Provide samples of your work.
   • Testimonials: Include feedback from past clients.
   • Blog: Post industry insights and writing tips to demonstrate your expertise.
5. Network and Market Yourself
   Networking is key in the medical writing industry. Join professional organizations like the American Medical Writers Association (AMWA) or the International Society for Medical Publication Professionals (ISMPP). Attend conferences, webinars, and workshops to connect with potential clients and stay updated on industry trends. Use social media, especially LinkedIn, to build your professional network and highlight your expertise.
6. Get Your First Clients
   Getting your first clients can be tough but rewarding. Start by reaching out to your existing network and offering your services. You might consider doing some work for free or at a discount to build your portfolio and get testimonials. Freelance platforms like Upwork, Freelancer, and specialized medical writing job boards can also help you find opportunities.
7. Manage Your Business Operations
   Effective business management is crucial for long-term success. Set up systems for tracking income and expenses, invoicing clients, and managing deadlines. Tools like QuickBooks for accounting and Trello or Asana for project management can help keep you organized.

More on using LinkedIn

Many publishing, continuing education, and medical communication companies look to LinkedIn to find prospective new writers. It is an excellent platform to showcase your work and list the companies for which you've written. And by publishing your work on the site, you can attract followers who might refer or hire you.

Summary

Starting a medical writing business requires careful planning, networking, and dedication. By following these steps, you can build a successful business that leverages your expertise and meets your clients' needs. Stay adaptable and continuously look for opportunities to grow and develop professionally.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Why Build Your Own Rewarding CME and CE Writing Business?
• How To Know If You Will Love Medical Writing
• How to Shine as a Technical Medical Writer – 155
• Why Medical Communications Is the Best Nonclinical Career – 061
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Disclaimers:

Some of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

The opinions expressed here are mine alone. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post How to Set Up Your Medical Writing Business appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.