On this week's episode of the PNC podcast, we revisit my interview with Dr. Helen Rhodes from 2019. She describes how persistence and flexibility helped her find meaningful clinical and nonclinical jobs to create a delightful career.

Helen describes the difficulties of returning to obstetrics after several years away, the value of diversifying your employment opportunities, and the fascinating world of plasmapheresis.

Early Clinical Career Opportunities

Helen began her career in her home state of Texas, completing her residency there. Shortly thereafter, an academic medical center in Houston recruited her to do gynecology only.

Although she felt fortunate to be doing gynecology, Helen soon realized she was unprepared for academic medicine. Not yet 30 years old, traditional practice beckoned. So, Helen left academic medicine and returned to full-service OB-GYN work, serving a community in Houston for ten years. However, after ten years of service, she felt the OB-GYN lifestyle no longer fit her goals.

I really was having difficulty with the lifestyle, of obstetrics primarily. – Dr. Helen Rhodes

Feeling better prepared for it, she returned to the same academic institution she had left a decade before and worked there for ten more years as a gynecologist.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Private Practice

After her youngest son graduated high school, Helen decided to take a big leap and go into private practice doing only gynecology. She knew it was a risky move, given that she had no patients to follow her and would not be offering obstetrics.

On top of that, her reason for the change was to reconnect with her patients and spend more time on patient care. She quickly realized, however, that fewer patients would mean less revenue, particularly in private practice.

The post Be Creative And Flexible And Love Your Career – A PNC Classic from 2019 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In this podcast episode, John interviews the author of The Purpose Code, Dr. Jordan Grumet. 

As the host of the Earn and Invest Podcast and a physician-turned-author, Dr. Grumet combines insights from his hospice patients with his own experiences to offer fresh perspectives on finding authentic purpose and creating lasting impact. His new book, “The Purpose Code: How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness, and Leave a Lasting Legacy,” challenges traditional views about purpose while providing practical guidance for those seeking greater fulfillment.

Our Episode Sponsor

We're proud to have a NEW EPISODE SPONSOR: Dr. Armin Feldman's Prelitigation Pre-trial Medical Legal Consulting Coaching Program.

The Medical Legal Consulting Coaching Program will teach you to build your own nonclinical consulting business. Open to physicians in ANY specialty, completing Dr. Armin Feldman’s Program will teach you how to become a valued consultant to attorneys without doing med mal cases or expert witness work.

His program will enable you to use your medical education and experience to generate a great income and a balanced lifestyle. Dr. Feldman will teach you everything, from the business concepts to the medicine involved, to launch your new consulting business during one year of unlimited coaching.

For more information, go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/mlconsulting or arminfeldman.com.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Redefining Purpose for Modern Life

Dr. Grumet introduces a fresh perspective on purpose by distinguishing between two distinct types: “Big P” and “Little P”. This approach challenges conventional wisdom about how we view and pursue purpose in our lives.

Through his research and personal experience, he explains why pursuing Big P purpose often leads to anxiety and frustration, while Little P purpose offers a more accessible and fulfilling alternative that anyone can implement.

The Path to Lasting Impact

Drawing from compelling real-life stories and evidence-based research, Dr. Grumet demonstrates how small, meaningful actions can create profound and lasting impacts. His insights reveal why some of our most significant contributions may come not from grand ambitions, but from authentic engagement in activities that naturally resonate with us. And that often leads to unexpected but meaningful legacies.

Summary

For those seeking guidance on finding meaning and happiness while building a lasting legacy, “The Purpose Code” is available at Dr. Grumet's Website and major booksellers.

Dr. Grumet's approach offers practical tools for creating a more fulfilling life by reimagining how we think about and pursue purpose. This is particularly relevant for professionals experiencing burnout.

Links for today's episode:

• Dr. Grumet's Website
• Official Trailer for The Purpose Code
• The Purpose Code: How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness, and Leave a Lasting Legacy (this is an Amazon Affiliate Link*)
• How to Be Purposeful with Your Life and Career – 317
• Why You Must Dare to Discover Your Purpose When You Retire – 258
• How to Develop a Passionate Side Hustle – 098
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit (Use Coupon Code 30-OFF)
• The Nonclinical Career Academy

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

If you liked today’s episode, please tell your friends about it and SHARE it on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Right click here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 386

Now Find Happiness and Meaning and The Purpose Code

- Interview with Dr. Jordan Grumet

John: I'm pleased to welcome a fellow physician podcaster to the show today. He's an internist, hospice medical director, and an author. Actually, that's why he's here today for the most part, because he has a book coming out called "The Purpose Code: How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness, and Leave a Lasting Legacy." So that's coming out right as this is being released, actually. So with that, I'll say hello and welcome, Dr. Jordan Grumet.

Dr. Jordan Grumet: John, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.

John: Yeah. And my listeners may know you if they listen to earn and invest podcast or have seen that, you know, that term out there, then they're already familiar with you. But I think probably there's many people that haven't either met you, seen you, or even read your previous book. So we're going to get into it right now. But let's start by you telling me and the audience a little bit about your medical training and experience and kind of what you're doing right now, everything a little smattering of what you do.

Dr. Jordan Grumet: So basically, at the age of seven, my father was 40 and he was an oncologist, and he died suddenly from a brain aneurysm, was actually rounding at the hospital. And right then and there, I decided I want to be a doctor. I think part of it was that I think I could cosmically fix this wrong that happened, this trauma that I went through, by walking in his shoes and fulfilling his role. And that's exactly what I did. I went to college and medical school with the certainty that was my sense of purpose, that was my identity, that was what I was going to do. Did my training in internal medicine, and basically after a few years of practicing, really started to burn out. I realized that maybe this was my father's sense of purpose and not mine. There were things I loved about medicine, but the paperwork and the feeling like sometimes you weren't making a difference and the long hours started to grate on me. And I started looking for a way out. And strangely enough, at the time I was writing a medical blog, and this guy named Jim Dally wrote me, and he said, "I just came out with this book called 'The White Co-Investor.' Would you review it for your medical blog?" I reviewed it. I learned about financial independence. I realized that my parents had given me great modeling when it came to money and probably was already financially independent. I was very emphatically joyful for about a moment because I could leave medicine, the thing that was burning me out, until I realized that I had no idea who I was or what I wanted to do.

And that basically started a long road where I got rid of everything in medicine I didn't like except hospice care. I was doing it almost as a side hustle, and I loved it. So I kept that and started doing it 10 to 15 hours a week. But because I was only doing that 10 to 15 hours a week, I had all sorts of time and I started blogging about personal finance because that's what got me there. Eventually it turned into a podcast. And what was really interesting is I'd have on my podcast all these authors, entrepreneurs, people who are making lots of money. But when I asked them about what enough look like, or why they were doing what they were doing, a lot of them couldn't answer. And I was finding the answers from my dying hospice patients who could talk about regret and what was really important to them. So I wrote my first book called "Taking Stock," about what the dying could teach us about money and life. And one of the big questions, or one of the big premises of that book was that we should put purpose before we build the financial framework. I went out to market this book and I got all sorts of angry people saying, "You keep on saying find your purpose and I can't find it. I've been looking forever. It's pissing me off. Please stop saying this." So I did a deep dive into purpose and I eventually wrote the book, "The Purpose Code," to answer all those naysayers who are having what I call purpose anxiety, this idea that they can't figure out their purpose and they don't know what to do. I found a lot of us people are in that exact place and I wanted to answer that question: How do you "find your purpose?"

John: Well, yeah, I mean, that is a very common conundrum for some of us. I mean, you talk about mission or the meaning of life, purpose, sometimes what's... yeah, I don't know. There's all kinds of terms people use and they're like, "I just, it seems like it's something that should just flow from my heart, it should just be obvious. Why should I have to look for it? It doesn't come to me naturally." So I think this is going to be really good, a good book. So we're going to dig into that a bit, and the fact that you have this history in hospice is awesome too. I mean, like you said, where else to really learn about, but at the end of life, you know, the purpose and meaning of life, which you address everything in the book, 'cause I've had access to it for a little while. So I appreciate that. So was it just obvious after the first book? When did this decision to actually write a second book and to focus on this area, how did that come about?

Dr. Jordan Grumet: Well, after having people come up to me angry at the end of conferences and public speeches about this idea that they were angry that I was telling them to find their purpose, I did a deep dive and I found two things that seem to contradict each other. The first was there are tons of studies about purpose in life and it's been shown to increase health, longevity, and happiness, like really clear studies, tons of them. But then I found other studies that show that up to 91% of people at some point in their life have what's called purpose anxiety. This idea of purpose makes them frustrated, angry, depressed. And so the question is, how can purpose be the most important thing, but also cause us so much unhappiness? And the answer is that we get purpose wrong. We usually think of it as one thing. It's probably two things. And one of those things is probably much more associated with that anxiety, and the other is probably more associated with the health, happiness, and longevity. But the problem is most people go after that more toxic version of purpose because society has told us that that's what we should do. I call it big P purpose. It's big, audacious, goal-oriented purpose. And from the day we're born, we are sold this idea that that's what we're supposed to base our life on. And so it leaves a lot of people feeling frustrated when they can't find that one thing that's supposed to make everything better.

John: So distinguish the Big P and the little P, since you mentioned that. I mean, so how should we go about searching for our purpose and distinguish those two things?

Dr. Jordan Grumet: So big P purpose is that toxic purpose and it's big and audacious. And if we think about America, it's this idea of you can think it, you can build it. And so often this kind of purpose is really huge. Like "I'm gonna become a billionaire, I'm gonna cure cancer, or I'm gonna have an eight-figure business." The problem with that kind of purpose is you got to be the right person at the right time saying the right things with the right genetics and a whole lot of luck. So big audacious purpose or big P purpose is easy to fail. It's all or nothing. You either succeed or you fail. And it's usually winner takes all. Let's think about "I want to be president." Well, only one person can be president. So there's going to be a bunch of losers and one winner. Because of that, Big P-purpose is often easy to fail and it's very scarcity mindset oriented. Only a few people are going to get there. Let's contrast that to little P-purpose. Little P-purpose is not as much worried about goals as it is the process. So it's this idea of find things we love doing and spend our time doing those things. So instead of being scarce, those are really abundant. Think about all the millions of things you could enjoy doing. Instead of being all or nothing, it's all or all and it's almost impossible to fail. And so that's the difference. Big P purpose, I think really brings out a lot of anxiety. Little P purpose, the kind that actually most people don't strive for, is a lot more reassuring and nurturing and is much more tangible as opposed to big P purpose, which is very ephemeral and pie in the sky. And I wanna do these crazy things, but I'm not sure how to get there.

John: But you know, you give several examples in the book and I wonder if you could talk about the one that I really remember. It was going way back, baseball cards, maybe just a little review of that story because it was pretty touching in a way.

Dr. Jordan Grumet: So there was a gentleman who changed my world and he did it without even trying. And he did it with little P purpose. And this is the importance of this story is, A, it helps us define what little P purpose is, but it also shows the impact. And so I get this argument all the time. The reason I go after big audacious goals is I want more impact and legacy. And that's fine if you happen to succeed in your big audacious purpose, which most people don't. But I think little p-purpose actually can be more impactful. And the guy who taught me this was Roman. He owned an antique store. He was a baseball player, actually had dreams of becoming a baseball player. His version of big p-purpose was becoming a baseball player, but he blew out his knee. And so after high school, he called it quits. Instead of going to college, he decided to run his father's antique shop. And he liked refinishing furniture. And so he would get various pieces of furniture, he'd refinish them and sell them. And one day a gentleman brings in an armoire and he says, "Okay, I can fix this and sell it." So he buys it and he's in the middle of refinishing it, opens one of the drawers, and there's a stack of baseball cards there. So he says, "Okay," he calls the guy back. He says, "You know what? I have these baseball cards. You forgot them. Do you want them back?" The guy says, "No, keep them, do with them what you want." Roman had no idea what to do with these things. So he just put them on the counter and left them there. A few days later, a woman had come in with her teenage son and you know how snarky teenagers are. They pretend they don't care, but when he came up to the counter and saw these baseball cards, he all of a sudden got interested. He flipped through them and he looked up at Roman and said, "How much for these cards?" Roman had no idea. For him, it was just on the top. It didn't matter. So Roman says "10 bucks" and the kid says, "Fine," takes out 10 bucks, gives it to him. Then he spreads the cards out on the table and points out three or four of them. And he said, "These three are worth a hundred dollars on their own." Now, Roman was enthralled. He could have been pissed, but he wasn't. He was actually excited. There was something about this that lit him up and he knew all of a sudden that this was something he wanted to be engaged in.

Maybe it was the fact that he played baseball himself. Maybe it was memories of having the cards himself and putting them in the spokes of his bike, or maybe it was going to Wrigley Field with his dad and sitting in the bleachers. He can't remember exactly what it was, but this lit him up. But here's the thing: he could have just given up there, or he could have just waited for something to happen to him, but Roman realized that you don't find purpose - you kind of build and create it. So he had to take action. So he hired the snarky teenager right there to help him. He started researching baseball cards, and he started buying them, selling them in his antique store. And believe it or not, within a few years he was selling more baseball cards than he was antiques.

Here's the interesting thing: Roman did this because it just lit him up. It wasn't that he wanted a better business plan. He never thought it was going to make that much money. But what he also didn't foresee was there was a group of kids, a community, who found themselves surrounding his antique store and these baseball cards. I was one of these kids. And I had a learning disability, and my dad just died, and I had no friends. I was kind of one of those nerdy kids. And he built a community of these nerdy, geeky kids who had nowhere else to go but loved baseball cards. And this meant everything to me.

And I think back... As I got older, as many of the kids who went to that baseball card shop, as they got older, we carried with us a sense of community and belonging and even a new sense of self-confidence. Roman himself actually got cancer and died a few years later. His antique shop closed. But 30 years later, I'm still talking about him, which is interesting because he never set out to change my life. He never set out to fix all these kids. He just... performed his sense of little P purpose. He just got involved in something he loved.

Let's compare that to Mickey Mantle. Mickey Mantle was notably one of the best baseball players to ever play. He was one of the baseball cards that I sought after when I was a little kid. I always wanted his baseball card. If I instead had decided that I wanted, or if Roman instead had decided that either of us wanted to be Mickey Mantle as opposed to enjoy the little P purpose of baseball cards, there are many reasons it would have never happened. Me? I didn't have the genetics, the skill, the talent. I didn't have any mentors to teach it to me. Him? His knee had blown out. He physically just couldn't do it anymore. But if that had been our version of purpose, this big audacious purpose, we probably both would have failed and been unhappy and we wouldn't have accomplished anything. We would have had what I call a purpose anxiety. But instead, Roman's Little P purpose built a community, and we're all better for it. It still affects my life today, all these years after he's gone. And so Little P Purpose not only lights us up, but it changes the world. And I think if impact and legacy is what you're looking for, you're a lot more likely to get there with Little P Purpose than Big P Purpose.

John: Let me ask you more about the purpose, this whole thing. Should we try to imagine where if we are working, and you know, we have to put money on the table and we can make a lot in job A, maybe a little less than job B, but job B is maybe a little closer to my purpose. What are your thoughts about going for the... the P instead of the money?

Dr. Jordan Grumet: And I actually get this criticism all the time. People are like, "Well, you are a doctor. You made all sorts of money, realize you're financially independent. Of course you can talk about purpose." That's kind of, they use the other P word, privilege. And here's what I say to that. And it's a complicated answer, but I think it's a really important one. If we look at our lives, we all know this, we're doctors, right? You're born one day and you die hopefully many years later, and you get a set amount of time. You don't know how much time that's gonna be. And yeah, maybe you're exercising, you wear your seatbelt, you do some things to help it along and maybe get a little more time, but mostly it's set. And here's the problem: Time passes and we can't control it. We can't buy it, we can't sell it, we can't exchange it. The only thing you can really do is control what activities you're involved in as time passes. That's it.

Winning the game is if you look at life as a series of time slots. You want to fill as many of those time slots with things you love or little p-purpose and get rid of as many things that you loathe as possible. So that's what we want to do from the time we're a young adult till we die - we want to continuously look at our schedule and improve those numbers. So this is where the conversation about work comes in. We look at money as a very important tool in living a life of purpose. And we think, well, if we have lots of money, that's privilege, and then we can do whatever we want. But if we don't have a lot of money, we're kind of lost.

Well, I'd like to tell you, we have a lot more tools than just money. We have our youth, our energy, our communities, our relationships, our joys. So we have a bunch of tools, and then we also have some levers. We can use the joy of addition, which means we add in purposeful activities to our life. We can use the art of subtraction, which means we just get rid of things we loathe. And then we can use substitution, which means we can change one thing for the other.

So here's the thing: If you really want to win the game and make your calendar better every year for the rest of your life, where you're doing more things you love, unless you loathe, you got to use those tools and those levers to make a better life. And for each person, that's going to be a little bit different. And so if you're young at the beginning of your career and you have a job and you don't love it, but it makes lots of money, you've got a different tool, maybe not a huge amount of money yet, but you've got the tool of your energy and your free time. Maybe you're not married. Maybe you don't have a mortgage. So for you, you can work 60 hours a week and probably still spend three or four hours on a Sunday doing something purposeful.

So you've used the joy of addition to add in purpose to your life. So already you're winning the game because you're adding more purpose to your life. You might monetize that, turn it into a side hustle, and then not only are you doing three or four more hours of purposeful activity a day, but maybe you have a little more economic margin to cut back on that job you don't love. And so what we really want to do is use these tools and these levers, and that's going to look different at different times in our lives and different times of our careers. And depending on how much family we have and what our economic needs are.

So there's not a simple answer of, do I go with passion and purpose and not get the high paying job or vice versa? The answer is we want to continuously use our levers and tools to bring in more purpose and get rid of more things we loathe. But we have to do that in such a way that we can financially manage. And I don't think it's a difficult equation, but we've got to be really thoughtful about how we do it. And so maybe I have a job I don't love and I can't add in more purpose and I can't subtract out things I don't like, but maybe I can work for a different boss at the same company. Maybe it's the boss that's making me loathe this. Maybe I can do the same job but for a new company. This is all substitution. So I'm just trying to bring out ways we can use these tools and levers to make the calculus better. But there's not a simple answer. It really depends on you and what your situation is.

John: Well, you know, some of the guests I've had before, and when I hear from my listeners, you know, they're physicians, sometimes they're burned out and they feel like it's all or none. And what a lot of us talk about on this end is, well, you don't necessarily hate healthcare. You hate whatever you happen to be doing right now. So why not volunteer for something on a board or become a part-time physician advisor? Only takes a couple hours a day if that. You might like it, you know, and look at these other opportunities instead of saying, "Well, I'm just going to drop it all and just go become a, I don't know, a mutual fund investor or something."

Dr. Jordan Grumet: The mistake that most people make is they don't do enough thinking about little p-purpose. So they realize they're burning out and they realize that work's overwhelming and they realize it's the only way they think they can make money. But because they haven't invested at all in little p-purpose, they don't even know what to strive for. And so for instance, look at me: I was a practicing internal medicine physician and I was exhausted, but I didn't go into hospice immediately. When I eventually realized I liked hospice and I would do it even if someone wasn't paying me for it, I was lucky enough to have this tool of money such that I could get rid of everything else and keep it. But what if I understood purpose a little better at the beginning of my career? Even though I didn't have much money, I could have gone into hospice in the first place. And that could have been a version of Little P-Purpose for me. And yes, I would have made less money, but I don't think I would have burned out my career so fast. And so I would have had much longer career longevity and I probably would have spent more of my time doing things that I love.

So this calculus would have been much better for me if I just went into hospice in the first place. And so most of us haven't done enough deep thinking about what purpose looks like in their life. And so we can't improve. Who knows? I love writing. A lot of medical practices actually have a blog or create content and will pay doctors to do some of those things. I could have brought that into my work life even if I didn't love my job itself. There's a lot of tools and levers. We just got to be real thoughtful about them and we've got to have a better understanding of what purpose looks like in our life.

John: Well, I want to talk more directly about the book because we're touching on the big P, the little P and some other things. So maybe give us a little... a glimpse of what else is in the book. What kind of things do you talk about in the book? What kind of problems do you solve in the book? And then just tell us where we can get the book at that point.

Dr. Jordan Grumet: So really what the book is, is hopefully the book is a journey to happiness. And so we start with purpose because I think people get purpose wrong. And I think when we redefine it as little P purpose and big P purpose, it goes from something very ephemeral and difficult to reach to something very tangible and easy. And so that solves the purpose problem. But happiness is not only purpose, I actually say it's meaning and purpose. So in the book we talk about the difference between meaning and purpose and how to build both of them in your life so you ultimately get to happiness. And a lot of the book is spent talking about how little p-purpose, again, leads to legacy and impact. A lot of people like big audacious purpose because they think it's going to change the world and they're going to make their mark. And I spend a lot of time, especially at the end of the book, talking about how little p-purpose actually makes more of a mark. And so that's kind of what the book talks about. And if you're interested in getting it, you can of course get it anywhere books are sold, places like Amazon, or you can go to my website, JordanGrumet.com, J-O-R-D-A-N-G-R-U-M-M-E-T.com where you can get the book, my other book, Taking Stock, as well as see all the places I create content like the Earn and Invest podcast and the Purpose Code Substack.

John: All right. And the publisher is a traditional publisher, is that right?

Dr. Jordan Grumet: Correct. So, Hairman House actually is an imprint of Pan Macmillan. So, it is a traditionally published book, which a lot of people like to self-publish, but I really enjoy the process of working with the editors and the creators and the designers and coming out with a beautiful product and that is always my goal whenever I write something.

John: Excellent. Yeah, because we've had authors out here and we go from everything from self-publishing to hybrid to... traditional and it's just interesting to see what people choose just based on, you know, their preferences and their priorities. So that's awesome. You know, I usually ask like what advice you would have for someone who's in the hospital setting or just in the clinic, you know, a lot of family physicians no longer enter the hospital like myself. And I mean, maybe this is part of the solution to burnout is, is to focus on the P. So tell us more about how they could think about that.

Dr. Jordan Grumet: Yeah. I really believe burnout is pretty much people who are searching for big audacious purpose and either getting there and finding it doesn't fulfill them, or not getting there and feeling frustrated like they're failing. And the problem with big audacious purpose is it's so goal-oriented that a lot of times we spend time doing things we really don't like in service of this goal that we may or may not reach, but doesn't really gratify us for that long. And so I do very much believe little P purpose is part of the antidote to burnout. I think when we start doing things we love the process of doing, regardless of the outcome, it adds to our life. So if you're a busy physician, and again, you're doing it on nights or weekends, you're adding in some gratifying time to your life. But I think as you do that and you connect with other people and you build communities, you can also find ways to build that into your career. Sometimes that looks like changing your career as a physician where you go to a different specialty or focus on one thing that you were doing before, but it becomes your specialty. Other times it means leaving medicine and pursuing completely other types of work. There's no right or wrong. The question is, what could you love the process of doing and how to build more of that into your life? And if we start that process, everyone's going to end up somewhere different. Some people are going to continue that job they don't love, but build purpose in other ways. Some people are going to find that they can move out of that job they don't love, or some people will turn the job they don't love into a job they do love. All of that's possible, but none of it happens until you A, understand better what lights you up - what's your little P purpose. And then B, you got to take action.

John: Sounds like awesome advice to me. I'm going to just record that last two minutes and replay it every time and my podcast. But no, I appreciate you taking the time to tell us about this. Is there anything we missed that we need to know before I let you go? We've got the place to be at the book, website.

Dr. Jordan Grumet: My simple message is just to remind everyone that purpose is easy and it's straightforward. It's not nearly complicated as the world has made it out to be. It's abundant. You can, I don't want to say find, because you don't find your purpose. You build and create it. But you can start creating purpose in your life. It's just some basic simple actions.

John: All right. Well, with that, Jordan, I will say goodbye and hopefully we can catch up with you maybe when you write your next book.

Dr. Jordan Grumet: Thank you so much for having me.

John: My pleasure, bye-bye.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

*Many of the links that I refer you to and in the show notes are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, and that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

[/fusion_text][/fusion_builder_column][/fusion_builder_row][/fusion_builder_container]

The post Now Find Happiness and Meaning with The Purpose Code appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In this week's Classic Podcast Episode from 2020, Dr. Jennifer Spector describes how to become a medical editor. Unlike other medical editors who spent years as a paid medical writer, Jennifer parlayed her involvement in a professional society and unpaid writing to land her new editor position.

Jennifer is a Board-Certified Podiatric Physician and Surgeon with 14 years of clinical experience. She spent over 5 years in national leadership positions at the American Association for Women Podiatrists (AAWP). She’s had a long-term interest in education, writing, and consulting. She is passionate about educating others. In June 2019, she became the Associate Editor for Podiatry Today.

She received her DPM degree from the Temple University School of Podiatric Medicine. Then she completed a three-year residency in podiatric medicine at Christian Care Health System.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

How to Become a Medical Editor

Medical writing and editing are great careers. They come in various arrangements: freelancing or employment; working remotely or in an office; technical, journalistic, or educational. And there are positions open to physicians of all backgrounds.

After completing her residency, Jennifer spent several years building her practice. She later volunteered at the American Association for Women Podiatrists. She chaired several committees. Then she held several leadership positions, becoming President of the organization in 2018.

There are so many things that we might have dipped our toes into in clinical practice without realizing how they can apply outside of actual practice. – Dr. Jennifer Spector

While at the AAWP she was responsible for writing and editing the newsletter and other documents. That experience enabled her to land her position as Associate Editor for Podiatry Today.

After working in that position for about 20 months, Jennifer was promoted to Senior Editor followed by Managing Editor at Podiatry Today. In July of 2022, she became one of the Assistant Editorial Directors at HMP Global, the parent company of Podiatry Today and a market leader in international healthcare education and clinician engagement.

Finding Editing Jobs

Today’s conversation with Jennifer clarified her process to become a medical editor for a news journal like Podiatry Today. Jennifer reminds us to develop a portfolio of writing and editing samples to share with prospective employers. She was able to do this while volunteering with the AAWP.

If you’re looking for freelance writing opportunities, you should look at the portfolio of journals published by the parent company of Podiatry Today, HMP Global. There are 12 journals and over 100 Online Digital and Learning Networks under its umbrella.

Summary

In today's interview, we learned what it takes to become a medical editor. This is often a natural step for established writers to pursue.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Jennifer Spector's LinkedIn Page
• Podiatry Today
• HMP GLOBAL
• AAWP
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit (Use Coupon Code 30-OFF)
• The Nonclinical Career Academy

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The post How to Become a Medical Editor – A PNC Classic from 2020 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This week John spends a few minutes sharing his thoughts on one of three popular full-time careers when preparing to “level up.”

Today John delves into the idea of “leveling up”- a journey of self-improvement that can lead you to a more satisfying and financially rewarding career. Drawing inspiration from professional athletes and attorneys he shares how to take stock of your strengths, identify areas for growth, and set new goals to help you become the best version of yourself.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Three Most Popular Full-time Careers for Physicians Seeking a Change

Suppose you’re a physician considering a career shift. In that case, John highlights three nonclinical roles that might be perfect for you: hospital Chief Medical Officer (CMO), pharma Medical Science Liaison (MSL), and insurance company Utilization Management (UM) Medical Director. These roles offer improved work-life balance, competitive pay, and full-time opportunities with major organizations. John describes each popular full-time career and how you can smoothly transition.

Your Network is Your Net Worth: Resources to Help You Succeed

Transitioning to a new career isn’t just about what you know, it’s also about who you know. In this section, Dr. John reminds us of the importance of building a strong professional network and leveraging resources like LinkedIn, the American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL), and the MSL Society. He also recommends joining online communities like the Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook group, where you can connect with others who’ve made similar transitions and get advice on your next steps.

Summary

Sometimes it makes sense to level up your career to one that offers better pay and work-life balance. The three options described today have demonstrated that they generally meet those goals. If you're looking for full-time employment in a well-established industry John advises you to consider one of these popular options. 

Links for Today's Episode:

• How to Become CMO in a Year – 052
• 4 Things the CMO Should Never Say to the CEO – 251
• Hospital Management Career Bundle Tactics to Quickly Prepare for a Hospital Management Job
• Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job
• Complete the Journey to Your First Fabulous MSL Job – 277
• Build a Rewarding Career as an MSL – Use Coupon Code HALFOFF to purchase for only $198
• How To Secure Your First Utilization Management Job
• The Truth About Medical Specialists and UM Jobs
• American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL)
• Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook Group
• MSL Society
• Check out the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit to learn about MORE career options.

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 368

First Consider the Most Popular Full-Time Careers

John: Okay, nonclinical nation, many of you are ready to make a change in your professional life. It may be because you're frustrated and your work-life balance is shot, or maybe it's just because you're ready to level up.

What do I mean by leveling up? Well, leveling up can be described as a process of self-development or to become a better version of yourself. This can include identifying weaknesses and strengths, setting goals, replacing old habits with new habits, focus on success, and possibly moving to a career that's more satisfying and financially rewarding.

As I was thinking about this concept, I was trying to get examples, and I have two examples that really come to mind.

The first one is professional athletes. Some professional athletes are forced to retire. Some just reach their peak and decide after they've done everything they want to do, they just retire, but they have a lot of notoriety and they have hopefully saved up some money. And again, it's kind of parallel to what physicians can do.

I think of examples like those of Magic Johnson's business ventures in broadcasting, music, film, and finance, or John Elway's investments in dealerships in the Denver area that he said later sold off, and then him investing in the Colorado Crush of the Arena Football League in 2002. And of course, many successful athletes have finished their careers as athletes, and then leveled up to do something else very powerful.

Now, those might seem like outliers. Maybe those are just a select few, but I also think of attorneys. There are many attorneys who never practice, or let's say they finish law school, they pass their bar, and they do work for a while in the industry, in law, doing something, but then they find that they can take everything they've learned in law school and with their early experiences as an attorney and segue into another career, which they level up.

You can look around and see a lot of attorneys working in C suite of various companies, not actually practicing law, but applying what they learned as leaders, as researchers, as presenters, and they apply to the new job. You're an attorney and you have a background in healthcare law, well, you can do that with a big firm, or you can actually go and become part of a team to run a healthcare organization, and obviously all those skills will come in handy.

I interviewed somebody who was trained as an attorney. He, for a little while, was helping physicians with their contract negotiations as an attorney. What he did was leverage that to become more of an agent. He helps physicians negotiate better contracts as an agent, but not as an attorney. In fact, he still has attorneys review the contracts. That's a way to level up.

I think the physicians can do the same thing. Healthcare is the largest industry in the United States, and there are positions for physicians in every major aspect of healthcare. Maybe it's natural to think after a few years of being in the trenches and seeing patients, at some point it gets old, and now you look for the next challenge, and that's what we call leveling up.

And so, I want to talk about three of the positions that you should consider, particularly if you're in a big hurry. Now, you can spend six, 12, 18 months researching all of the possible nonclinical careers out there, but if you're looking for a particular type of career that I'll mention in a minute, then maybe you should select from one of the three most commonly pursued careers and go from there, and that's what I'm going to talk about today, the pros, the cons, some of the tactics for doing this, and so forth. They definitely provide a better lifestyle, and they pay well, and so I thought I would focus on those today.

Those careers are those of a chief medical officer at a hospital or health system, medical science liaison, or UM medical director. Now, they're all full-time jobs. We're not going to mess around with starting a new business or getting a part-time job and then segwaying to maybe looking for two or three different part-time jobs that you can patch together like I've talked about before, but these are full-time jobs. They involve employment with a large organization. They have a lot of the usual benefits that only large organizations provide, and they're really seen by physicians as very, very viable options. And so, I thought, "Well, if I can provide examples of these three and tell you a little bit about each of them, maybe that can kind of jumpstart your process of leveling up."

All right, I have definitely interviewed multiple physicians doing all of these jobs. I personally have been a chief medical officer, know many other chief medical officers and other senior executives in hospitals that are physicians. I've interviewed many medical science liaisons, which represents the pharma industry. And then the third is, again, one of the most common, and maybe somewhat underappreciated, and that's being a medical director for a health insurance company, or you might call them a healthcare payer, one of the big ones. That's what I want to talk about today.

Let's talk about the chief medical officer first. What about that? How do we do that? And one of the things that comes up, because maybe I'm comparing these three directly, and it's a little bit, I wouldn't say disingenuous, but it's not correct to, let's say, talk about a new MSL and someone who's becoming a new CMO. CMO is a pretty high-level position. Now, I was going to talk about medical directors in the hospital setting, and it is the stepping stone to becoming a CMO. Both those jobs pay well, they have great benefits, and the lifestyle is much better than, let's say, a practicing physician as an anesthesiologist or an ER doctor in the hospital.

But most medical directors that work in the hospital setting are medical directors for a service line, which means they're usually practicing at least half-time as well. I wouldn't want to call that medical director position as a full-time position. Now, there are some full-time medical director positions. If you're in a large enough hospital and you can be a medical director for quality improvement or for informatics or for utilization management or, let's say, even coding and documentation, those can all be full-time jobs. They can pay well. You can replace your clinical salary for sure. And they do serve as a stepping stone, though, to the ultimate hospital environment job, which would be that of a chief medical officer or one of the other senior positions like chief medical information officer or chief quality officer, something like that.

Now, as far as getting from your medical director role up to the CMO role, which is that last step before, but you could eventually become a COO or even a CEO of a hospital. But in focusing on the CMO role, you're going to do some of these things that we will talk about with all three positions, really.

Maybe a little different here. You might want to get an executive coach or mentor. You definitely want to join LinkedIn because you're going to do a lot of your networking and looking for jobs on LinkedIn if you don't have a way to segue up to the current institution where you're already working.

One of the resources is the AAPL, which is the American Association for Physician Leadership, which is at physicianleaders.org. They have a bunch of books. There's a bunch of other books you can look at for healthcare finances and leadership and so forth.

And the question with that job is, "Does it require relocation?" If you're in a large metropolitan area, there's probably multiple systems where you could look for a job, but it's not uncommon to be able to work your way up an institution's hierarchy, work as a medical director, take on more responsibility over time while you gradually decrease your practice. And ultimately, while you might keep your license, you reach a point where you really don't need a license.

I would maintain it only because sometimes when you're looking to change to a CMO role at another organization, they want you to have the license. I think sometimes that's because they might be using your license for some things, having to do with the pharmacy or covering for ordering drugs for different units. But ultimately, you won't really need to have that license because you're no longer seeing patients. Although as a CMO, you can continue to see patients once a week or every other week or so if you want to continue to do that.

But it's one of those jobs that you should think of right off the bat if you're in a position that enables you to pursue that kind of job. It's not right for everybody. If you're a dermatologist working in an outpatient setting or if you've never had privileges at a hospital, it makes it difficult to start that job search from nothing as opposed to being one of these people in the hospital that are there all the time, the emergency physicians, anesthesiologists and various surgeons and so forth. Geriatricians and hospitalists are typical, very common to move up that path. So that's the first one.

With that, I think I'll move on to the next one, which is medical science liaison. We've talked about this before. It's a very common and attractive position. It really doesn't require any special background. I think it's helpful if you have experience in working with particular drugs or drug classes. It's kind of whatever's popular at the time. Oncologists typically can get into pharma very easily. They'll often go into more of the clinical research side of things, but as an oncologist, it would be very easy to become an MSL, but also pretty much anyone who's using certain drugs and classes of drugs, whether it's cardiology, even gynecologists and family physicians, internists for sure. There's a big push in GI drugs lately. So if you were doing GI work and wanted to transition to this role, it'd probably be fairly easily.

And there are even positions for people that don't have a residency and haven't been in practice, but we're really focusing on those who have been in practice and want to level up to something new with a better lifestyle, but actually paying equal to or more in the long run than what you're doing now. And as I said, we're going to focus on some of those drugs to help convince our new employer.

As far as resources to try and move into this role, you want to commiserate with others that are doing it, you want to go on LinkedIn, you want to have a great profile. This applies to all three. Great LinkedIn profile, networking on LinkedIn, engage with peers. You can join the MSL Society, which the link there is themsls.org. They have a lot in there for people who are already medical science liaisons, but you can imagine just taking a few entry-level courses and reading about becoming an MSL and being an MSL and exceeding and excelling as an MSL would be very helpful. And in addition, you'll learn the language that they speak.

And when you're doing interviews and submitting your resume, you want to sprinkle those and your LinkedIn profile with the vernacular that's not used outside of the pharma industry. And some of it's not even used by anyone other than medical science liaisons. I do also mention the Contract Research Organization, CRO, because you can work directly for a pharmaceutical company as an MSL, but a lot of MSLs work for contract research organizations.

A CRO has different names, it could be the Contract Research Organization, it could be Contract Resource Organization, but they provide resources to pharma companies for those things that they don't want to keep hiring for. And sometimes it's MSLs, it can be other things, it could be the components that actually provide the studies, that monitor the studies and so forth.

You oftentimes will find that CROs are hiring medical science liaisons a little quicker than the pharmaceutical companies go. And all of these things are dependent on what is going on in the industry, how much demand there is based on what new drugs are being released by various companies. And it's at that point of release that MSLs get heavily involved. It's an educational role, it's not a marketing or sales role.

I remember once talking to a guest who's a pediatrician and she didn't think there was any way she could be employed by a pharma company, but because of all the experience she had with vaccines, they happened to be looking for somebody that had that experience and she was able to get a job. And I think initially she was employed by a CRO and then later moved up to a full-time position either with the CRO or with the pharma company itself. That's the second one I wanted to mention today. Don't forget to look at the MSL Society to get some ideas on how to approach that goal.

The last one I want to talk about today, again, one of the big three, is working as a medical director for a utilization management company, working for a large payer. Again, that doesn't require any special background. If you've done chart reviews before in the hospital setting, particularly maybe you've been a physician advisor for UM in the hospital, that might help. All the big insurance companies hire these people, but they also sometimes farm this out to something called an IRO, which is an independent review organization.

And so, many people when they're starting out and becoming a UM or a benefits management medical director, they'll apply at an IRO first and they'll find a job part-time. This is the one that's a little easier to do, kind of the pilots where you're still doing your old job. You're doing some part-time chart reviews for an IRO and then some IROs will hire you full-time.

One of my colleagues really, he hasn't been a guest on the podcast yet. I'm probably going to have him on someday, but he was a surgeon and he just wanted to spend more time with his kids. And he thought, "Well, I don't know. I make a fair amount of money as a surgeon but I'm not having any time with my kids. I'm not spending enough time with my kids. They're growing up, I'm missing on that." And he said, "I'm going to level up to one of these different careers." And so, he did start working as a medical director for an independent review organization and he actually really enjoys it. In addition to doing general sort of chart review work, he's also serving as a resource for those surgical cases. So you can always get that. Even if you're a specialist, sometimes they have special roles for you. One of my other guests or the other one that was a guest as opposed to this first example, he was an invasive cardiologist for pediatrics.

And yeah, he's been working at a health system or a health insurer rather for gosh, at least five or six years now since I interviewed him. And he's very happy and he actually helps other people do that. The resources for that, besides looking around for IROs, if you want a list of some of the IROs, they're basically the ones that are certified. You can go to NAIRO, which is the National Association of IROs at nairo.org/members. You'll get a list of all the NAIRO members and you can go look at their websites to see if they're hiring the type of medical director that you might be looking at. And again, these can be for part-time positions to get you started, to get you exposed.

You can also go to Facebook and look for the Remote Careers for Physicians Facebook group. It's got at least 10,000 members now. It's pretty big group. And everybody in there is kind of talking about working as a payer or a health insurer UM medical director and other associated types of positions.

All the big insurance companies definitely will hire these people as well. Whether we're talking about Cigna or Centene or several others, any of the big ones, they all have them. But they also outsource some of the work to the IROs. Again, I will remind you that for all these positions, it's important to be on LinkedIn. It's important to have a complete profile. It's important to use LinkedIn and sometimes Doximity to locate your colleagues and network with them. See if some of them are already doing one of these jobs.

Like I said, maybe it's time to level up and this is how you can get started. And if one of these three positions sounds right for you, then you can just jump in now and start working on it and see what you think.

The other thing I would say is besides what I've already mentioned in terms of the benefits is they have great benefit packages in most of these places. You've got health insurance, disability insurance, retirement plans, four to six weeks of paid time off. And some of them will even give physicians deferred compensation benefits. So that can be nice for your retirement planning.

Well, I guess that's it for today's discussion. Thousands of physicians literally just in the last few years have found happiness in each of these three careers. They all offer full-time salaries, generally good benefits, and there are resources that can help you get started. Just check out those resources and get going. And if you have any questions, you can always contact me.

If you want to access everything that I've talked about today easily, you can go to the show notes. You'll also get a link to the podcast episode. You'll get related links, several related links actually and the transcript. And you can find all that at nonclinicalphysicians.com/popular-full-time-careers.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post First Consider The Most Popular Full-Time Careers appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This week you will hear priceless advice from an expert in biopharma, Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley. She also brings her experience as a physician career coach and mentor to bear during our conversation.

Over the past five years, Michelle has made significant strides in her biotech career. And she offers valuable insights and advice for physicians looking to transition into the industry.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Power of Relationships in Career Transitions

Michelle highlights the critical role of networking in securing nonclinical roles. “These jobs are all about relationships. Often, you end up getting a job not because you’re the best fit, but because you know someone,” she explains.

She recommends using platforms like LinkedIn and Doximity to connect with industry professionals and seek advice and opportunities.

Priceless Advice from an Expert

When pursuing a job in the biopharma sector, Michelle advises against additional certifications or degrees as the first step. Instead, she suggests focusing on building transferable skills and relationships within the industry. “You shouldn’t have to jump through hoops to get a job. You likely already have the knowledge and skills needed,” she assures.

She also advises us to explore the Medical Affairs Professional Society for useful advice and information.

Encouragement for Aspiring Biopharma Professionals

Don’t lose confidence in yourself. We all face rejection and setbacks, but remember, you are good enough for these roles. Keep believing in yourself and stay persistent. – Michelle Mudge-Riley

Summary

To connect with Dr. Mudge-Riley and learn from her experiences, you can find her on LinkedIn, another resource for priceless advice from an expert. She also recommends checking out the Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS) as a fantastic resource for networking and professional growth in the medical affairs field.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley's LinkedIn
• Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS) 
• The Best Biopharma Positions For Motivated Practicing Physicians
• Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job
• Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job: A PNC Classic from 2021
• Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311
• Research and Development in Nonclinical Pharma Careers
• The Wonderful World of Nonclinical Pharma Careers

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 364

Priceless Advice From An Expert In The BioPharma Industry

- Interview with Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley

John: I'm so happy to welcome today's guest back to the podcast. She's been on the podcast before, but it has been quite a while. She's known as an expert in career transition through coaching and live events, but really she has become an expert in biopharma because she's been working in biopharma and doing some pretty interesting things. I'm really happy to welcome Michelle Mudge-Riley here to the podcast. Hi, Michelle.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Hi, John. So nice to be back with you again.

John: It's great to see you. We were just reminiscing before we started our interview here, but why don't you fill us in a little bit with the highlights of what has transpired in the last five years, let's say, because that's almost as long as it's been since we spoke on the podcast.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Sure. Sounds good. And it really is unbelievable that it's been five years. I know it seems a long time when you're looking at it day to day, but there's so many things you look back and you think, wow, it's been five years or it's been 10 years or it's been years. And yeah, this is a perfect example of that. Yeah, I was the doctor's doctor known as that probably 10, 8 years ago, as I had a thriving business as a career transition coach for physicians. I ran an online and in-person conference. And I also worked for a small boutique consulting company at the time, which enabled me to do a lot of these extra things on the side.

And in my role in that consulting company, I was the medical director for small, medium and large biotech companies. I really enjoyed doing that as well as my side gigs. When COVID hit, that changed everything for everyone. And I won't get into the things that I did with my side gig at that point, but I made some personal decisions that I wanted to look back at my career and have something a little bit different than what I was currently doing. It was like a lot of people, a good time for a change. And that biggest change was that I really wanted to go to the client side, work for a biotech company and experience what it was like on that side versus the consulting side. That's where we were back in 2020.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Now that's a big commitment to make, because you had been doing different things. And of course, even way back before all that, you had a master's degree and did other things as a physician, but that's a big commitment. And as I saw what you were doing, because I could always look on LinkedIn and hopefully you were keeping that up to date. I could see that you were getting involved in more and more different things. I thought you'd be perfect to give us another perspective. I've interviewed a few people working in pharma, but it's usually a specific position we focus on, but I think you can give me a little more of a better perspective, because knowing how physicians are searching for jobs that are more fulfilling and satisfying, and a lot have thought about how can I get into biopharma? So that's why I thought I'd have you come back and enlighten us a little bit today. What is it that interested you about biotech and pharma personally?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, great, great question here. When I started to make my transition over 20 years ago from clinical practice, I considered biotech and pharma and device, and actually did not consider it as seriously as I should have. I thought it was the dark side. I thought it's an easy choice. If you don't want to be a practicing physician, you think about insurance, or you think about pharma. And I didn't want to be such a clich�.

I dabbled a little, but ended up, you're right, getting a master's degree, getting a nutrition, additional training there. I worked for a number of different firms, an employee benefits firm, and then multiple consulting firms. I started some other businesses. And I slowly was always seeing this common thread of being involved with biotech in some way. And I can tell you that what I have done for the past five years has been so fulfilling and so much fun. It's completely changed my life being working directly for a biotech company. And I will most likely finish out my career doing this.

I still have some side gigs. I think that's important. I've always talked about multiple irons in the fire, because it's really easy to get so caught up in the day to day. And you never really know what's going to happen. COVID's another great example, never saw that coming. So making sure that you're diversifying yourself and your career, I still maintain that that's really, really important within compliance, of course, if you're working for a company, that's going to be an issue, which we won't go into today. But it's really fascinating how much fun it is working for biotech. And I know we're going to talk a little bit about that today.

John: Yeah. Well, what's so fun about it? What is it that you personally find to be the fun parts? Because something that's fun for you might not be fun for somebody else. But for you personally, what is it that you like about being involved with the type of company that you are?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, there are two big things that I love about my job. And one is the actual work. And that was something that I've always talked about as being really important, but really hard to find with a career, because you may be influenced by your boss or your colleagues or the autonomy or lack thereof, or all of these other little things, which are also important, by the way. But if you don't like the work, that will drive you to burnout and to just being not your best self.

And so, for me, the work is something I love. I love being able to be able to understand the scientific articles and explain them to others, talk amongst my colleagues about the science and the medicine aspects, learn the new things that we don't learn in medical school about clinical trials and all the aspects. Working with the FDA, looking at the different clinical endpoints, inclusion criteria, talking about the criticisms of different trials and how they compare or don't, and working with other physicians who are experts in the field.

We should get into that too, because that's really interesting working with other physicians, because most people in my position at a pharmaceutical company or device company, they are physicians or their PhDs. And so, how does that differ from the physicians that I work with that are still in practice? But that's an aspect I really, really like as well.

The last part about what I really like about my job is working with very smart and really quirky colleagues. Anyone who's really smart, I feel like has some unique aspect about them that kind of makes them quirky. And I love that about people, just finding out what their unique characteristics are and being able to talk with them about science and just really high level complex stuff, but also get to know them as people and what their hobbies are, what they like to do. They like to go axe throwing or something else that you wouldn't think about. And most people would never think about doing either. Typically people in these companies, they have these really cool hobbies that you then get to learn about.

John: It reminds me about some of the things when I was chief medical officer and thinking back, what did I really like? I really liked the science behind the quality improvement. I would sit in my office by myself creating reports for the board and that. And so, I'm more of an introvert, but that's what I liked. And I had no trouble spending two or three hours doing this report and then explaining it to, let's say, the board or somebody else.

The other thing you mentioned, like the quirky people, our CMO was a nurse. CMO, he was a nurse of course. And he raised chickens. I'm like, okay, there's a weird quirky thing to do. And he'd go to not conferences, but they'd have these shows where he could find the best new chicken breed out there. It's like, you got to be kidding me. But yeah, it's good. It's different than being face-to-face with patients all day. And you do get to interact with physicians in other realms clinically. And the thing again about the pharma and the biotech, it's so scientific. If you have a scientific mind, I think you really fit in well there.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. Yes. I completely agree. I have a colleague who likes to fix coffee makers. How interesting is that? And how different? I would not really thought about doing that, but yeah, just buying coffee makers that may have a small problem and fixing them, making them look really good and selling them. It's interesting.

John: That's interesting. And if yours breaks down, well, you know where to go.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Right. Exactly.

John: To be an entrepreneur and to have to build something yourself is one thing, but tell me, there was something very comforting about being part of a large corporation and probably most pharma companies are massively larger than let's say a hospital that I worked for, but there was just a consistency and the hours were regular and there was a nice IRA or whatever, but that wasn't a pension anymore. But yeah, they had that all worked out. So you find some of that helpful and beneficial as well?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. I think the constant struggle of an entrepreneur is can get old and that grind can get to be something that I've spoken with other physicians who have started companies, sold companies, and then moved into more of a corporate job or just a job where they receive a regular paycheck. It's part of that. Yes. But I will say that in biotech, it's not a massive company all the time that there are really small biotech pharma device companies and they have a different culture than the larger companies. So if someone has tried this before and they haven't really flourished in the way that they want, maybe it's just a matter of a small company versus a large company.

John: How do you prepare for that? What advice do you have? Is there something I can do ahead of time that gives me just a little bit of exposure, maybe a little certain skills that would be good for biotech versus a large pharma company, something like that. Any thoughts on that?Dr.

Michelle Mudge-Riley: It's really hard because you'll hear about physicians and others who have tried for years to get into a biotech company or an insurance company or just to get into this nonclinical career space and have had a lot of difficulty. And so that's a common question. What sort of certifications do you need? What sort of degree? Should I go get an MBA? What have you done to make you successful? And I think the number one thing is that this is really not what people want to hear, but this is what I see over and over and I experienced myself. It's talking to others. It's getting out to people that you don't know that are working in the space and talking to them about what they do.

All of these things are relationship driven type jobs. And often you end up getting your job, maybe not because you're the best fit, but because you knew someone. I don't know, for better for worse, that's how it goes. Because with all of these applicant tracking systems and people not knowing others, you may be the perfect fit for a job or multiple jobs, and you won't even get an interview and that gets people really down. I get it. It's so humbling, but it's not you. It's the system and the system is not perfect. And so, the more people you can talk to and find out about keywords to use, what the industry is actually like, what sort of transferable skills you have. I know you talk about transferable skills on your podcast a lot, and who's there at the company that maybe went to your universe. It could be as simple as that to get that interview. And then everyone likes you when they're talking to you because physicians are typically likable people and we all have the ability to go work at a biotech company if we wanted to.

John: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Between LinkedIn and Doximity, you can probably locate most of your former med school cohorts, your residency, your fellowship, whatever it might be. And chances are someone out of all those hundreds of people that you know, is doing something kind of maybe what you're thinking about. So I've heard that before. And I'm being an introvert. I don't like to really necessarily reach out to people, cold call them, but an email or call they really, they always respond positively in my experience and what I've talked to people about.

I was going to ask you another thing, and it's maybe more about pharma than biotech. See what you think about this. But I imagine if I go on to Pfizer's website and try and apply for a job, I've got about a one in a million chance. But I know pharmaceutical companies use something called the CRO, which we've talked about here before, contract research organization is one definition. But in your experience, whether yourself or with others in businesses you've been involved with, is that something that it can be a bit of a shortcut, or a little easier to get hired than to go directly for one big company?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think it's all about timing. There's some good TED talks that really speak to this. It's all about timing. There are some people who apply to jobs at Pfizer, J&J, or some of these massive companies that you might think of off the top of your head that are pharmaceutical companies when you're starting to think about it. And they're applying, they get the job. But yeah, you're right. In general, these positions, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people applying. And so, it's a numbers game in a lot of aspects. And if you're finding a CRO, or maybe a smaller biotech company that people haven't heard of before, it's numbers game, it's just going to be less applicants. And maybe your application, your resume will catch someone's eye. A lot of this, again, is luck, timing, and you can increase your chances by talking to people in those relationships.

John: It's always better to have someone you can actually send your resume to, even if you go through the electronic version of that, it's still nice to have a human that might be able to sit through them and find yours. See, with the pandemic, it really kind of blew things up a bit. But there used to be some large national meetings that would occur every once in a while. And you could just show up or maybe attend the meeting, maybe it was on some topic related to a diagnostic class or something. And then you could run into people and meet them, take their cards. Does that still happen, do you think?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. I think that still happens a lot. The Medical Affairs Professional Society, or MAPS, is a great example. They have an annual meeting every year in the US. They also have one in the EU every year. That's a great place to maybe start that networking or go to the meeting. It's not a guarantee. So just knowing that ahead of time is important.

John: Let me ask you a definition issue. Because one thing you can do is you can maybe look up people on LinkedIn, again, see if it cross paths with something else you've done in life. But the thing is, what are you looking for? Like medical director, it's a common term in pharma, biotech, medical devices, it doesn't mean that much per se, because it's such a general term. Would that be something you would shoot for right away? Or are there other entry level positions one might usually go to?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, that's a tough one. Because you're right, medical director is such an ambiguous term. And it can mean something different in a lot different industries and at a lot of different companies. It's a good term, but it's going to be tough to use to search and find what you need there.

Medical Science Liaison is more of an entry level sometimes type job into these companies. The thing about an MSL is it's quite different from a medical director. And working as an MSL means you are working within medical affairs, whereas maybe some physicians will be a better fit to work for clinical development, or maybe even clinical operations. Or they may feel like the MSL role is a little bit of a demotion. So, you really have to balance all of those things.

If you're looking to find people in a medical director role, which I think is a really doable and achievable entry level role for most physicians, because we have the degree, we have the background, we have the clinical knowledge, and that's really looked at in a positive way, is to search by different companies. Maybe make a list of companies and then do that cross check and cross reference on LinkedIn. And then you can find people maybe a little bit easier within these different departments at that company.

John: Now, here's the question I've never asked anyone. But again, I'm always noticing these terms and trying to keep them all straight. But I've seen a number of people that the word global is in part, like global medical director, global this, global that. I assume that means because it's international. But what the heck does that really mean? Does it mean you're traveling the globe to do your work? Or what's your experience with that?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: You mean something different at every company. It most likely means that you are on the global team, which means you'll interact with colleagues in the EU or Asia, just somewhere other than the United States. But doesn't necessarily mean that you're traveling there. But it may, it may mean you're traveling there a lot. So it's very different depending on the company.

John: See, I talked to somebody about medical device, he teaches people how to do the MDR stuff in Great Britain. And his comment was though, let's say you're on that side of the pond, and you're looking for a job like this, because we get people that go back and forth. And he said, whatever you're doing there in Europe usually is going to apply in the United States, because all the companies in Europe that make drugs and biotech, they want to also sell in the United States. That can be a good thing to know that there's options on both sides of the Atlantic.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Absolutely, yes, there is a lot of money in drugs in the US for better for worse. We could have a whole conversation about the ethics behind that. And is this the right thing? And how does this work needed for R&D? Let's not go down any of those routes. But you're right. Yes.

John: But I think they're big businesses. And so, they either hire a lot of people directly or indirectly. So that's good. It's a good option for physicians, we're scientists, and we most of us use drugs and medical devices so that kind of makes for a natural transition.

I think you alluded to this next question, but I have it on my list. I'm going to double check. That has to do with how to prepare or to increase your chances. I know we both don't tell people to go out and spend $60,000 or $100,000 on MBA just to get a job in a pharma company. But is there anything out there in terms of maybe a certificate exposure to research? I don't know, ways to get a little bit on your resume that might be might demonstrate some knowledge?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah. I wish but not really. It really comes down to all the things that I talked about before. The timing, the knowing people the right place, right time, you can get certifications just to make sure that you know about these different topics, or you're well educated, you can do a good job in the interviews. And that's great. And maybe that will help you a bit. But it's nothing is a slam dunk guarantee. That's the really hard part about all of this. I wish there was. But if there was, we would already know about it now, I guess, right?

John: Yeah, I think it gets back to what you said earlier, if you can have a connection and find out, narrow your search down based on talking to people, you may find in that particular job that this particular certification might help you get that job, but it's not going to apply across the board.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. And if you're truly interested in that topic, getting that certification is only going to help you. And that's good, you should never just be doing things to get the job. In two years, you're going to be tired of it, you're going to be moving on anyway. So, try to also check your own self and make sure that you're doing these things, because you want this information. And would you do it anyway? Maybe if it's a little bit? Well, no, probably not, a little bit it's okay. But if it's you're just doing this to get the job, that may be also a little bit of a signal that this isn't the right field, or maybe looking at an easier way to do it, because you shouldn't be killing yourself to try to get that job.

John: Yeah, you should have the knowledge and a lot of the skills that already that would apply in that job.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes.

John: Because like you said, so many of them are filled by physicians. So there is a demand there. And it's just a matter of getting that communicated across to the company in the HR department that you're applying to. Okay, Michelle, well, I think I've bent your ear for long enough here. So why don't you close by giving our listeners here some any last minute advice or positive words of encouragement for those that are thinking "I do want to try something different. And I do think it's in the biotech or biopharma area."

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is something that I usually mentioned, so people have heard me speak before they've heard this, and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's lose confidence in yourself. And I'm just as guilty of it as others. We go through these phases where we're so beaten down by rejection, and things not working out, it's really easy to start thinking that you're not good enough, you don't know enough, you're not smart enough, not good looking enough, not tall enough, you're never going to make it. I hate those periods, but we all go through them. And that's what's going to just bring you down even more. Because when you're when you're in that place, you can't be the person that you are. And I think all of us as physicians, we got into med school, we got through at least a year, most of us all the years and all the residency, but whether you cut it short or not, you still were able to get there. And you are good enough to be in one of these jobs.

So don't lose confidence in yourself, do whatever it takes, have your support system, find a therapist, find a coach, find whatever it takes to just kind of get yourself to the point where you're able to talk about your strengths and your weaknesses, but be able to articulate what you want to do, and why you want to do it and why you're a good fit. And then it's a numbers game. It's annoying like that, but it is.

John: Yeah, and I know that you and I both could give dozens, if not hundreds of examples of physicians who have done that, and they thought it was kind of impossible at first, and then they realized "No, it's not." And now they're having great careers and loving it. So that's excellent reminder.

All right, Michelle, with that, I think it's time to say goodbye. I will tell people, I have links in the show notes, just reminding them that they can find you at LinkedIn. And that'd probably be the best way to reach out to you if they have any questions or things they want to double check. Maybe they went to school with you, and they've lost touch. Maybe you can help them get a job in pharma. But anyway, with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: That sounds great. Thanks, John. Thanks for your time. Thanks for having me.

John: You're welcome.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Priceless Advice From an Expert in The BioPharma Industry appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today's episode, Dr. Lara Hochman returns to the podcast to share her insights on finding joy when seeking a new practice.

Through Dr. Hochman's company, Happy Day Health, she matches physicians with private practices that prioritize their well-being and financial stability.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Your Guide to a Stress-Free Medical Career

Dr. Lara Hochman introduces the Stress-Free Physician Career Guide, a free email course designed to help physicians navigate the job market with confidence. This resource covers essential topics such as vetting potential practices based on personal values, choosing the right employer, and negotiating salaries. By providing this guide, Lara aims to equip physicians with the knowledge they need to make informed career decisions and find positions that align with their aspirations and values.

Avoiding Common Pitfalls in Job Selection

One of the most common mistakes physicians make when choosing an employer is focusing solely on salary. Dr. Lara Hochman warns against this approach, advising physicians to consider factors like work-life balance, practice culture, and support systems. She emphasizes the importance of thoroughly vetting potential practices by speaking with current physicians and staff. By understanding what truly matters to them and asking the right questions, physicians can avoid pitfalls and find fulfilling positions that offer more than just a paycheck.

Dr. Lara Hochman's Advice on The Importance of Knowing What You Want

Knowing what you're looking for first, and then just going out and finding that… It's very cool to see when I work with physicians who know exactly what they want, and I find them that and they land the job and they're happy.

Summary

By thoroughly vetting practices and asking the right questions, physicians can find fulfilling positions that enhance their work-life balance and overall happiness. For more resources and information, visit Happy Day Health and connect with Dr. Hochman on LinkedIn or Instagram.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Lara Hochman's Website at Happy Day Health
• Dr. Lara Hochman's LinkedIn Page
• The Stress-Free Physicians Career Guide

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 363

Avoid These Mistakes When Seeking a New Practice

- Interview with Dr. Lara Hochman

John: As I've mentioned in previous episodes of the show, I'm becoming more and more convinced that we as physicians can find happiness in medical practice. I focus a lot on nonclinical careers, but I'm seeing more and more about practices that are really fun to be a part of. My guest today was here a couple of years ago, and she was talking about those situations because she matches physicians with practices. And so, I thought I'd have her come back to kind of complete that conversation. With that, I want to just say that I'm happy to have Dr. Lara Hochman here on the podcast again. Hi, Lara.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Hi, thank you so much for having me back. I'm so excited.

John: Well, good. You've been continuing to do what you were doing back then, in terms of connecting physicians with practices. I've talked to a lot of people, but I don't actually do the connecting and I never have a chance to really follow up with people necessarily if they've been on the podcast. I'm really looking for some of your advice and wisdom on this. But tell us a little bit about where things have gone, let's say in the last year and a half or two years since we spoke in terms of Happy Day Health and what you're doing, and remind our listeners as to what exactly we're talking about.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Sure. As the medical matchmaker, I created Happy Day Health as a company that really helps to match physicians with physician owned private practices. And these are practices that I have vetted, that I believe treat their physicians well, that are financially viable, and that are great places to work.

And I do this because I think it's important for us before deciding to make that leap into nonclinical medicine or to make that leap into all the dire things that we as physicians, look at what the other options are out there because there's some awesome places to work. And that's by having more physicians in private practice, this is how we really regain our voice as a physician community.

John: I agree a hundred percent. And so, I think it's going to be very useful for us to learn from you what we should really be looking at to optimize that situation. I have my ideas, but I'm not even going to get into that. And one of the things I noticed when I was looking at your website again, and reviewing some of your videos and that is that you created a new resource that I hadn't seen before called the Stress-Free Physician Career Guide. So why don't you tell us about that? Because I think our listeners, many will be interested in accessing that.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah, this is an email course, it's completely free. And it runs through a little bit about vetting those practices for yourself. If you're looking for a job and trying to figure out what does that job even look like? Or how do you vet a practice according to your values? Because what's an ideal practice for me is not going to be the ideal practice for you. So using what you know about your values and what your dream job looks like, how do you use that to vet the practice and see if it's correct for you? And then how do you select your ideal employer? How do you negotiate your salary? So, it's just a very nice, easy, free resource for physicians to help answer a lot of the questions that I get repeatedly. And that are so important to know how to do.

John: Yeah, I talked to a lot of coaches by virtue of doing the podcast. And for many of them, the first step is always about identifying what your passion is, or what your goals are, or what your principles are, or vision, those kinds of things, you're starting a new business. And so it sounds like you start there, and then you just go even beyond that is to dig into exactly what you might be looking for.

One of the things that I used to advise people that were looking for a job in the hospital setting was the same thing was, make a list of everything you do, let's say in a day or a week, and separate them by what you love doing and what you hate doing, and then try and find a career that will optimize what you love and get rid of all of what you hate. So where do we find the career guide? I don't want to forget about sending people to the right place.

Dr. Lara Hochman: If you head to my website, which is www.happydayhealth.co, there's a tab at the top, the stress-free physician career guide, go ahead, and it'll be right there.

John: Just start filling it out and using it. Okay, cool. One of the ways I like to look at some things sometimes when people are thinking about their career, and it's kind of like clickbait when you look at the internet, but it's like mistakes to avoid. That's why I'm going to ask you questions about mistakes that we can avoid. So, let's start with, I'm assuming that you're dealing mostly with physicians who are coming from practice, maybe they're coming fresh out of residency or fellowship, but they're probably going to start as an employee. They may not end up that way, and I guess I'll ask you about that in a minute, but what's the biggest mistake when choosing an employer? Should we just go with the one that pays us the most? Or how do we find out for sure that we're going to like being at, working with some group, assuming mostly it's going to be a physician group?

Dr. Lara Hochman: That's funny, that would probably be the biggest mistake that I see is just going with the one that pays the most. And I totally get it. Yeah, it's not even desperate. It's the loans and I want to get paid my worth and I want to feel well compensated. And those are all very valid. But in doing that, there's a lot of other things that get overlooked a lot.

Maybe besides compensation, and I was speaking with a financial advisor once who said the best paying job is probably your red flag. That's the red flag is if it pays really well. You can think of it that way. But, yeah, it's definitely interesting how pay structure works. And especially in the insurance model and how insurance companies pay hospitals versus FQHCs versus private practice. That's all important to take into account.

But I would say the other biggest mistake, oh, gosh, it's so hard to narrow it down to one. One of the ones is interviewing too many places, which sounds silly, almost, but what I tend to see is that then you go into analysis paralysis, so you don't know what you're looking for beforehand. Then you're interviewing at multiple practices, you get multiple offers, they're all a little bit different from each other. What ends up happening is you just shut down. When you have too many tabs open in your brain, and these are big tabs. This is a big life decision. And then it often people just end up picking the highest paying one.

So, knowing what you're looking for first, and then just going out and finding that. It's very cool to see when I work with physicians who know exactly what they want, and I find them that and they land the job and they're happy, like, easy peasy versus the ones and typically those are the younger new grads or anything don't really know what they want yet. And they just look everywhere. And then sometimes they'll lose opportunities because they take too long. And that may have been this incredible opportunity that they've lost. So, that would be a big one. And one that I think would be pretty unexpected.

Another one is not vetting the practice appropriately. You hear a lot of times, even in physician owned practices of a bait and switch they promised me this, but then I got that. And it's actually pretty easy to avoid that situation just by speaking with physicians that are already in the practice saying, well, an example is a physician I recently placed in this pretty cool practice. She came from a bait and switch situation where she was a high producer. She wanted to see a lot of patients. She was promised a lot of patients and she was paid purely on production, which is great potentially, but turns out they couldn't even fill her schedule more than five patients a day. That's something that could have been avoided. So, not vetting the practice appropriately is really important. So you don't get into the bait and switch situation.

John: Yeah. I was chatting with a physician recently that I know very well and he's fresh out of residency a year or so ago. And he had that exact situation. It looked like a good practice. It was actually physician run and owned have been around a long time, but his volume was nowhere near what they said it would be. They practically guaranteed it, although not in the contract of course. And he wasn't making anywhere near because the productivity kicked in at the end of the first year and he was still in the process of building his practice. So that was rough for sure. And he's gone somewhere else now, which is very disruptive.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah. It's so important to know what you're getting yourself into. And on the flip side, the practices that are hiring, it's expensive to hire doctors and you don't want to tell them the wrong thing and then have them arrive and realize it's something different and leave. Because then you've lost many tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of dollars by hiring someone unnecessarily. So, practices need to be honest as well. It's really a two way street.

John: And I think we talked about this last time that maybe physicians don't have deep pockets. If they're a small group, three, five, 10, whatever, even a group of 20, they don't have the resources of a large hospital system. So focusing on the pay is probably, the cultures of those two situations are completely different. Again, it gets back to what you said before about focusing on the, just the pay.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah. There's so much more to that. And especially with how much we want a good quality of life as we should, those are really important things to look at. What's your work-life balance going to be like, what what's the culture of the practice going to be like, will you have a voice? Will you have autonomy? Will admin listen to you? Do you have support? There's so many things that are going to be important to avoid burnout. That's really should not be overlooked. It's really important.

John: What about to switch gears a little bit, just in terms of negotiating everyone, maybe you find the ideal practice, looks like it would be ideal, but you do have to go through that process. So maybe mistakes you might see related to negotiating the contract once it gets to that point.

Dr. Lara Hochman: The big things are around transparency. I don't really see negotiating as I'm going to say what I want and you say what you want and it's buttheads until someone has to give in. Negotiating really is coming to an agreement on what works on both sides. And really working towards that together, I think is so important.

If you're just closed mind and you're like, I want X, Y, Z, and this is it, or else you're probably not going to get anywhere. You're not going to get what you want and versus using the example of tail malpractice insurance, I went tail, the practice doesn't want to provide tail. Well, maybe you can meet in the middle and see how it'll work for both. Obviously, tail is going to be less expensive for something like pediatrics than it would for OB-GYN or neurosurgery. But if I stay three years, perhaps you can pay 50%. If I stay, stay five years, you'll pay 100%, whatever it is, but trying to find something that works for both ends. Because if you're going to ask a new an OBGYN practice to pay your $100,000 tail, if you leave off to one year, that's probably not fair. Seeing it from both sides really is important, when it comes to negotiating for sure.

John: When I was CMO of a hospital, I used to do a lot of contract negotiations. And when I came away with, once I left was yeah, a small practice is not going to be able to put all that money out after one year of work and you just leave. But if you're working for a large hospital system, I put my foot down and say, look, this is the cost of doing business in that situation. But when it comes to, you got to give your physician partners a little bit of a break. If you're talking about tail for a very high cost specialty, that makes perfect sense. Anything else in the contracts that you've found maybe have been stumbling blocks that maybe unnecessarily prevented someone from accepting a relatively good or very good position?

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah, actually recently I had a physician, wonderful physician with an incredible practice who she had her dollar amount that she wanted to earn and just wasn't realistic. She didn't want to see a whole bunch of patients. So, unfortunately the math didn't work. But she was coming from a big hospital system that could blow money and was burnt out seeing 20 patients a day coming to a small private practice who had scribes admin support. When you're done, you're done. Awesome culture. This practice is just exemplary, really, really good practice, good morals, good ethics. But they see far more patients a day than this physician was used to.

And what it ended up coming down to was the practice said, we love this physician. We would love to have her join our team. However, she'd be seeing half the amount of patients we are and getting paid more. And we can't justify it. We can't that she's not even bringing in the revenue to be able to justify her salary.

I think knowing what it is that you're asking is so important. And that comes back down to the win-win situation that we were talking about earlier, but understanding what it is you're asking for before asking for it, and then truly actually listening to what the practice is saying back, because you may lose the job opportunity of your lifetime. And you may have been willing to take that lower salary, but because you didn't quite play ball, so to speak not take part in that two-way conversation, you may lose something that could be really cool.

John: Yeah, because every practice is totally different. And if one is very efficient, it has a lot of support like you said, they had scribes. That gets rid of a lot of work. Oh boy, that's probably based on just, again, she was fixated on one thing, and that was the most important, and she wasn't going to listen to any kind of alternatives.

Well, again, that gets back to the vetting. When I think about vetting like hospital systems, there's a lot of data out there publicly, probably not so much for physicians, but give us a few examples. Who should they talk to if they're trying to vet a practice? I can imagine there's be dozens of different approaches to trying to get information, including maybe talking to some of the patients, but what do most of your clients do to try and learn as much as they can about an opportunity?

Dr. Lara Hochman: The first step is in the interview. Really, there are almost no wrong questions. There's wrong ways to ask certain questions. But if there's something that you're afraid to ask, it probably means it's one of the most important things to ask. So, I'll have doctors who say this is really important to me, but I'm afraid to ask it. I really want to be a partner, but I don't want to scare them away, but if that's something that's really important to you, you definitely want to ask. It goes back to knowing your values and knowing what's important to you, and that's where that starts. Ask the hard questions. Definitely not just ask them, but ask them in a nice way. How would you want to be asked certain questions? Speak with other physicians that are already in the practice. If you're interviewing with a practice that only has one physician or one clinician, speak to the office manager. Speak to the medical assistants. Look at the turnover rate.

So, if the practice is turning over their office managers or billing people, that's potentially a red flag. So, look at that. If there's no one to speak to, well, that's not really very good. And then you want to ask those people about things that are important to you. You can ask around in the community. What I like to do when I'm interviewing for jobs or I actually went to a practice as a patient who now ended up being a repeat client of mine, but when I was in the waiting room, I was speaking with the receptionist and asking her what's it like working for this practice? She didn't know who I was. She didn't even know that I was evaluating if I wanted to work with them as help them find a doctor. But speaking with as many people as you can is one of the most important things. And if there are more than one physician in the practice, those are the people you want to speak to.

John: Okay. This is a question I think that my listeners will have. So, you've connected these physicians with practices. It's mostly physician run practices. Do the majority of those, are they looking for eventual partnership? Are some of them looking just to remain an employee, if it suits them? What's your experience been with that sort of goal?

Dr. Lara Hochman: It's about 50-50, I would say. The practices that are looking for partners, part of how I vet it is are they actually looking for a partner or are they just saying you're a partner so that they'll draw you in? Yeah, the practices that I work with that are looking for a partner are looking for a true partner. They want someone to bounce business ideas off of. They want someone to help them grow their practice. They want someone to be a part of the business, and typically they will start teaching you that before you become partners so that at the time of partnership, you can hit the ground running.

John: Okay. Another question that might come up, I'm thinking for my listeners. We've heard a lot about physicians going into practice that they love. And one of the options that some of the solo people have done that I've talked to have gone into a DPC. And I think I saw that one of your listings had specifically mentioned that. So, where does that fall in this? Are many of your practices that you're working with, are they DPCs? Are more going that way? What's your feedback on that whole situation?

Dr. Lara Hochman: There's definitely more DPCs opening up for sure. There's no question about that. As more people learn about it, it's such an attractive option. Some of my practices are direct primary care, direct specialty care or concierge. I wouldn't say the majority yet. I imagine that will change as more and more practices open, but it's an incredible option. It's really great.

John: Okay. All right. I'm trying to think of other questions that I've been asked personally, or that I have. Those are the top things that I was interested in learning about. And I mean, it sounds very hopeful to me. I think I'm going to have to get some more guests running DPCs and things like that. Tell us your website again, where can we find you and where can we look for the Stress-Free Physician Career Guide?

Dr. Lara Hochman: My website is www.happytohealth.co. Please check it out. That's where I have all of my jobs posted that I'm currently helping. You can sign up if there's something you don't see that you want, you can sign up and I'll let you know when something does come up for that. The Stress-Free Physician Career Guide is on there. There's a link to a course that I ran on opening your own practice. Anything is on there. I'm on social media, LinkedIn, Laura Hockman MD is where I'm the most active. I am on Instagram, Happy Day MD, I think. I don't even know.

John: I forget where my social media is. But yes, definitely. I saw the YouTube videos. So they're definitely going to be found there. You've been on another podcast, I'm sure, where you address this issue. So we can look for you there. All right. I guess I'm going to let you go in a minute here. But I'm just thinking, okay, if you're currently an employed physician, you're in a practice or working for a large corporation, you're probably doing the usual insurance company driven healthcare and you're getting miserable, any other advice you have just in general for how these people should think about the rest of their careers while they're feeling miserable?

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah, we got one life, we have to enjoy it. There'll be no job that's going to be good 100% of the time. But if you're miserable, why wait? What are you waiting for? If you're so unhappy, there's going to be something better, whether it's nonclinical, and that's where your podcast really can come in handy, or something clinical is out there that you enjoy, I would say, open up your mind. There's a lot of where we feel like we need to be practicing one way or we need to do it one way or another.

What have you got to lose? Take a job that sees less patients, take a job that if you want to stay clinical, think about what it is you actually don't like about your job. And most of what I hear is not clinical part, it's the admin part. So there's jobs available out there where you can still see patients and still do good in the world, and not have to deal with all the admin stuff. So you got this, it's just a matter of finding what you want, but knowing what you want first, so that you can go out and find it.

John: Yeah, so many physicians obviously want to be taking care of patients. And like you said earlier, there may be that practice not that far away that just has scribes, and you don't have to deal with the EMR as much as you do now, or whatever that issue might be. I think things are starting to turn for the better. I really appreciate you doing what you do and sharing these updates with us from time to time so that we keep the faith. Thanks again for being here today, Lara.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

John: You're welcome. I'll hopefully talk to you again next year or two.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Great.

John: Bye-bye.

Dr. Lara Hochman: Bye.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Avoid These Mistakes When Seeking a New Practice appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This is Part 2 of my interview with Andrew Wilner about shifting from medical writing to locum life. You can find Part 1 at How to Blend Medical Writing and the Locum Life.

When he decided to return to clinical medicine, Andrew discovered a wide-open locum tenens market for all specialties, even neurologists! Lucky for him, the opportunities for finding work had exploded during the previous decade.

“I liked the idea that I would show up, work 100% of the time, and then stop,” said Andrew. “Then, I can go back to the Philippines, dive, and work on my next book.”

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast. The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to unconventional physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Downsides of a Locum Tenens Lifestyle

But moving from place to place to practice has its downsides. Andrew describes the tedious credentialing, licensing, and CME credit challenges that come with the bureaucracy of medicine. And you must plan well to avoid long periods without work. The locum life has its challenges.

At one point, Andrew had licenses in 10 states. It became a challenge to meet CME requirements and track different expiration dates and fees.

Medical Writing to the Locum Life

Wherever he went, Andrew’s experience with locums has been similar. The places have modern information systems, excellent imaging technology, and a welcoming attitude.

The one thing about shifting from medical writing to the locum life was feeling very appreciated. You're showing up where they really need you. You're not angling for the job. They're signing you because they need you now: “Oh, welcome, Dr. Wilner. We're so glad you're here.”

According to Andrew, they're often ecstatic that you're there. Show up and do a good job and your efforts will be appreciated in most cases.

That's the second half of my interview with Andrew Wilner. You can find his book here: The Locum Life: A Physician's Guide to Locum Tenens.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for today's episode:

• Dr. Andrew Wilner
• How to Blend Medical Writing and the Locum Life
• The Locum Life: A Physician's Guide to Locum Tenens

Thanks to our sponsor…

Thanks to the UT Physician Executive MBA program for sponsoring the show. It’s an outstanding, highly-rated, MBA program designed for working physicians. It might be just what you need to prepare for that joyful, well-paying career. You can find out more at vitalpe.net/physicianmba.

Disclaimers:

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life or business. 

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. It should not be construed as medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counsellor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The post Shifting from Medical Writing to the Locum Life appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Dr. Andrew Wilner discovered early that he could develop a career that would blend medical writing and the locum life. He has always been a dedicated writer. And he is passionate about medicine. 

Writing has been a part of his life since high school. After medical school and internship, Andrew became an emergency room doctor while trying to decide the next steps for his career.

Using the flexibility that came with the ER job, Andrew continued to write. And that temporary ER job “was actually locum tenens. I never knew of it as such,” said Andrew. It not only allowed him to write books and continue his clinical work, but it helped him discover an interest in neurology. This led to his applying for a neurology residency at McGill University in Montreal. He was later accepted to the program and eventually completed an epilepsy fellowship at McGill.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast. The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Full-Time Writer

In Andrew's opinion, there's not much “literature” in the scientific literature. Writing a scientific paper is just a skill and “pure drudgery.” It’s not a creative endeavor. But writing for online journals, news outlets, and blogs requires a creative mind, and satisfies Andrew's need to write.

As an epilepsy expert, he wanted to write a book about epilepsy, so he published Epilepsy 199 Answers: A Doctor Responds to His Patients' Questions, in 1996.

• What is epilepsy?
• Is it contagious?
• What's an EEG?
• Can I drive a car?

Later, he wrote a book for clinicians, Epilepsy in Clinical Practice: A Case Study Approach.

While between jobs, he started doing interviews at conferences writing news articles for written publications. He found he was quite good at it, sometimes turning a 3-day conference into twenty or more published articles.

He developed relationships with editors. As the Internet exploded, he wrote blog articles and news stories for online publications such as Medscape, KevinMD, and Neurology Times. He had to hustle and write a lot but earned a living with his writing.

He transformed his blog posts into his first non-epilepsy book, Bullets and Brains. It opens with an essay about the impact of a brain injury on the life and career of a very capable, high-performing congresswoman, Gabrielle Giffords. She was shot in the brain. And Andrew explored the idea that “bullets and brains (obviously) don't mix.”

Blend Medical Writing and the Locum Life

With the growth of the Internet and the ability to work remotely as a writer, Andrew decided to travel. “One of my passions is scuba diving, so I went off to the Philippines. I discovered that I could sit there with my little laptop and write my articles,” said Andrew.

However, he had to consider whether he wanted to “retire” from clinical work permanently. He found that as he distanced himself from the clinic and seeing patients, his knowledge became less relevant, and he became less desirable as a speaker.

I think if you've been a dedicated clinician, taking some time off is only a good thing. – Andrew Wilner

So he decided to give clinical practice another shot. After writing for a living for ten years, he decided to return to clinical practice. It wasn’t easy, not because he had forgotten anything, but because the system wasn't flexible.

He had difficulty obtaining malpractice coverage. However, a small hospital desperate for neurology coverage helped him return to clinical medicine by arranging temporary supervision that demonstrated his competence to practice.

He then sought to balance his clinical work and medical writing. He started by pursuing locum tenens positions. In the process, he began a whole new chapter of his life. And it eventually led to the publishing of another book.

That's the first half of my interview with Andrew Wilner. Next week we'll pick up here and talk about his experiences living the “locum life,” and how those experiences inspired him to write his latest book The Locum Life: A Physician's Guide to Locum Tenens.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for today's episode:

• Dr. Andrew Wilner's Website
• Epilepsy 199 Answers
• Epilepsy in Clinical Practice
• Bullets and Brains
• Heidi Moawad
• American Academy of Neurology
• American Epilepsy Society
• Medscape
• Montreal Neurological Institute
• Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
• National Institutes of Health (NIH)

Thanks to our sponsor…

Thanks to the UT Physician Executive MBA program for sponsoring the show. It’s an outstanding, highly-rated, MBA program designed for working physicians. It might be just what you need to prepare for that joyful, well-paying career. You can find out more at nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

The post How to Blend Medical Writing and the Locum Life appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

I’ve invited a former guest from 2020 to show us how he created the private practice of the future while simultaneously growing a business start-up.

Dr. Phil Boucher has been in private practice since 2014. He is known for integrating cutting-edge technologies into his practice, and for helping other physicians communicate better with patients, improve productivity, and understand marketing. 

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Dr. Phil Boucher Creates the Private Practice of the Future

Dr. Phil Boucher is revolutionizing private medical practices with his innovative tools, OpenSpot and Practice Leads. OpenSpot fills last-minute appointment cancellations via automated text messaging, easing the administrative burden and maximizing capacity. Practice Leads offers a HIPAA-compliant CRM that centralizes patient communications, ensuring no potential patient is overlooked and automating follow-ups.

Dr. Boucher’s approach combines technology with personalized care, advocating for physicians to embrace private practice for greater autonomy and job satisfaction. By providing tools to streamline operations and nurture patient relationships, he helps physicians create thriving, independent practices that deliver exceptional care. His vision for the future of private practice blends efficiency with a personal touch, benefiting both physicians and patients.

Revolutionizing Appointment Management with OpenSpot

Dr. Phil Boucher highlights how OpenSpot addresses the common issue of last-minute cancellations in medical practices. By leveraging text messaging, OpenSpot fills scheduling gaps without burdening administrative staff with endless phone calls. The platform integrates seamlessly with existing systems like email, Slack, or Teams, ensuring real-time updates on filled slots. Available nationwide, OpenSpot can be set up within a week, offering a streamlined solution that enhances efficiency and patient satisfaction.

Empowering Physicians to Embrace Autonomy and Fun in Practice

I think physicians are often afraid because they feel like business is too hard… There's a way to figure out how to go into business for yourself and to practice medicine or to serve the people that you feel called to serve… It can be really fun and… profitable and you can really enjoy your life more.

Summary

To learn more, book a demo, or connect with Dr. Boucher, visit findopenspot.com and getpracticeleads.com. Additionally, Dr. Boucher is accessible via text for direct communication and support. His commitment to improving private practice is evident in his willingness to engage and assist fellow physicians in optimizing their practice management and patient care.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Frontier Pediatric Care
• Phil Boucher's LinkedIn Profile
• OpenSpot SMS Platform for Replacing Cancellations Quickly.
• Practice Leads – Manage Your Leads In One Place
• Who Can Help When Private Practice Matters? – 174
• How to Save Healthcare, Satisfy Patients, and Fix Physician Burnout – 256
• Text QUESTIONS for Phil Boucher to 402-741-4494.

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 360

Building the Private Practice of the Future with Technology

- Interview with Dr. Phil Boucher

John: Today's guest has always been an innovator when it comes to adopting new technologies to make his medical practice more efficient, more accessible, and more fun for everybody. And even back in 2020 when we first met, he was developing new ways to improve the patient experience and the physician's experience with practice. And so, with that, I want to welcome today's guest, Dr. Phil Boucher. Welcome.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Thank you so much. I can't believe it's been since December 2020. What a difference, it feels like a decade makes in the past four years. Oh my gosh.

John: Went through one pandemic, there could have been two in there, I suppose, but one was enough.

Dr. Phil Boucher: No one would have noticed if there were two probably at that point.

John: Well, no. I was doing purposely, I was looking back at old guests to see what they were up to today. And then I came across what you're doing. And it's almost overwhelming to me, just jumping back in years later and go, "Whoa, what's Phil up to?"

Dr. Phil Boucher: Right.

John: Give us a brief version of what's happened since we last spoke in 2020.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Background for me, if you've missed the episode back in 2020 is I'm a pediatrician in Lincoln, Nebraska. I graduated from residency like 10 years ago now, and was in private practice partner for about eight years, left that partnership two and a half years ago to start a pediatric direct primary care practice. Also in that time came up with this software concept that we'll talk about, I'm sure.

I built a software company and have been wearing those two hats to help physicians, help my patients. So it's kind of been a mix of things that I've been up to in the big picture of things. The two biggest things on my plate have been my DPC practice and my software company.

I also do a lot of marketing help for physicians, especially private practice physicians is kind of my people. And so helping private practice owners and physicians in private practice to better market themselves to their local patient populations. Those are kind of the big picture of things. We also built a new house. We have six kids now. I don't remember how many we had back in then. I won't try to remember.

John: Four, maybe.

Dr. Phil Boucher: But we probably had four of that and we have six now and we got two more dogs in the meantime too. So a lot has happened, I guess since we last spoke.

John: Yes, that is a lot. I got to pile on a little bit because I don't know if I've mentioned this in the podcast before listeners, but as of December of this past year, I didn't have any grandkids. I have five kids between my wife and I have a family and had no grandkids. And now we have three.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Your Christmas just got a lot more expensive there this year.

John: Yeah, exactly. I don't know, but six kids now that's good. I'm from a family of 10. I'm the oldest, but I can't even imagine in today's day and age to get six or more kids.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Oh gosh. I'm sure similar to back then, once you reach a certain threshold, another mouth to feed is, you just kind of divide the plates up a little bit differently and the cost and the time does diminish after you get to a certain number. I don't know what that number is.

John: Yeah. Well, congratulations. You've done a lot here and keep moving forward in all areas of your life, which is awesome. So let's get to the business of today. The really thing that kind of interested me is when I saw that you weredoing these sort of side gig businesses with software and that kind of thing. But I do want you to just briefly tell us about the DPC because that's also a very interesting topic.

Dr. Phil Boucher: I got pulled towards DPC kind of in 2021, listening to podcasts about DPC, to be honest with you. And hearing about the way that they were able to help families and help their parent practice to really thrive. It made me really excited for, well, I see so many different ways that patients and as a pediatrician, it's mostly the parents that we're talking about here, that they're struggling regardless of the pandemic, just the way that they connect with the way that they feel herded in and out of the office, the wait times, all of those things really weighed on my heart, seeing the ways that we weren't able to care for the patients the way that I wanted to, which led me to DPC and then realizing that there's so many ways to reduce the hassle for families and for me as the clinician to really drew me to direct primary care.

We have in our state, Nebraska, several family practice, direct primary care practices that have been thriving, but ours was the first and remains the first and only pediatric direct primary care. Luckily, around the country, though, there are a number of thriving pediatric direct primary care practices and really a network of pediatricians supporting each other in direct primary care.

There's a couple specific in the DPC realm things about pediatrics, and one of the biggest is the vaccines. And so, that was one of the hard hurdles to climb. And I've been working to help other pediatricians climb that hurdle now that I'm on the other side of that and have a good setup for vaccines. But as you know, vaccines are extremely expensive and often become a huge source of cash flow issue for practices in general. And when you're talking about pediatric DPC, where the volume is smaller, all of those things that really magnifies the cash flow issues that go along with vaccines. That was a big hurdle to climb over.

And then the other thing for pediatrics is almost all parents have insurance. They either have commercial or private insurance or Medicaid. And so, most kids are insured. So there's a little bit of a different angle when it comes to the value offer that we put to prospective patients that are considering joining our practice that isn't as required as strongly, I feel like, in the family practice realm.

It's not zero, but there is a different value offer when it comes to positioning yourself to grow your pediatric direct primary care practice from a marketing standpoint and from a way that we sell. We do the sales for patients joining our practice. So those have been kind of two of the really interesting challenges when it comes to pediatric DPC. And then just being a business owner and owning a practice, all of those sorts of things that kind of go along with starting a practice from scratch.

John: Nice. Well, that could be a whole separate episode. I think I'm going to do a series maybe two or three of you who are doing this family medicine internist, others, and maybe we can have you back on the podcast, go into that. But the bottom line is though you're charging or you have a monthly fee that people pay and they have almost unlimited access to you one way or the other.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yes. That's how we frame it is instead of all of the copays and deductibles and you know, calling and pressing three and waiting 17 minutes to talk to a nurse, to get told to schedule an appointment. People just text us for the most part. And millennials and Gen Z who are most of our parents that are joining love texting, hate being on the phone, hate taking that time out of their day. They love the convenience factor of it. And honestly, we do too, because it's so much easier than getting voicemails and playing phone tag and all those things to just communicate in the means that works best for us and for parents. The monthly membership fee, they can pay with their HSA. It covers everything. So there's no outside expenses. If you want your kids ears pierced, that's separate, but otherwise we really don't have any other line items that people pay for.

The thing that I think I've loved probably as much as the way that I'm able to have those relationships with families with longer visits and getting to know them more and just coming to know that my patients are going to see me or one of our team members when they come into the office is that we're able to try new things at a much faster clip because we don't have 17 layers of meetings and committees and proven concepts. If we want to try something new, we can with relative ease. We fail at a fair number of the things that we try. They just don't work. But then we have successes that we're able to really jump on quickly.

One thing that we did shortly after starting our DPC practice, we were in the midst of the pandemic. We had a ton of N95 masks. We set it up so that teachers could get those. A couple of months later, we had the formula shortage. Instead of having 17 rounds of committees, we just said, well, what if we have a formula bank and we can just get people that have formula on their shelves at home. Their baby has outgrown the formula. They haven't used it yet. Bring it to the office. We can distribute it to other families that are in need.

Same thing with COVID vaccines. We're able to just really jump quickly on the things in the community that are important and respond to those by figuring things out and just having a really, we can figure this out attitude as a team. It's made a huge difference for me, just enjoying being able to practice medicine, but also to respond to parents' needs and community needs in a much more quick way where things don't have to go to vote after vote after vote and nitpicking all the details. We say we want to do this, and then we do it.

A couple of weeks ago, or no, maybe a month or two ago, we thought, okay, there's a lot of teenagers that need to learn CPR for babysitting because they have younger siblings and all those sorts of things. So we're like, well, let's just do CPR and first aid for teens.

A month after deciding this is something that we should do, we just had one yesterday where we had like 10 teenagers that came in and did CPR training and learned first aid. Just the ability to do things like that when we think of them and when we hear from our parents that this is what they need, and to be able to jump on that has been so rewarding for me.

John: That's impressive. It sounds really to be involved in that. It's fun. It's rewarding. On the parent side, it's probably fantastic as well, just to be able to access that. You mentioned texting and people's use of texting. I think that brings us to the one topic I definitely wanted to talk to you about, which was you developed and are selling a product, I think now, and it's kind of a side gig. Just tell us all about it. It's called OpenSpot, I believe.

Dr. Phil Boucher: OpenSpot. This was not on my bingo card, but a couple months after opening my DPC, an eye surgeon who works in the parking lot across the street from my practice had sent me a message on Instagram actually saying, "Hey, here's the problem I'm facing. I know that you are kind of a techie guy. Do you have any ideas?" His problem was he's booked out several months for new patients, but has a lot of last minute cancellations. Timmy's sick. We don't have transportation. We got a better offer. We're not coming in for our appointment tomorrow. He would be twiddling his thumbs not having patients to see despite being booked out three months because his staff couldn't get a hold of patients. They didn't have the bandwidth to just call and leave all these voicemails and play phone tag to try and fill tomorrow at 11:30, an opening that just popped up. He was asking, Do you have any sort of solutions?

I couldn't really find anything that did that, but had enough experience and willingness to try that I was like, I think we can create something. And so we put a MVP, a minimum viable product together where essentially they could keep a waitlist. And then when an opening arose, they could start texting their waitlist. These people are booked out two months. Hey, tomorrow we have an opening at 11:30. Does that work for you? Reply yes, if so, and it's yours or reply pass, and we'll move on to the next person.

And so, that was the concept. And it kind of took off because you could do the math of how much money that and revenue that can generate if you're filling those gaps in the appointment slots. And so what we did was we had that minimum viable product, and we tried it in some local practices. And in the process, I learned a lot about software as a service, which I was completely unfamiliar with before that, but was able to figure out, okay, here's how it works. Here's what we can offer. Here's the limitations that we have not being integrated with an EMR, which I was like, well, no one's going to want to use this. People don't really mind having two windows open. They probably use multiple software products throughout the course of their day anyways.

And so it's okay if it's not integrated, if it gets those appointment spots filled and practice managers actually like filling appointment spots, even if it creates a little bit of a headache for their staff and not having to call people on the phone really reduces that headache that could exist of, you need to get this spot filled. Well, what if we could just text people?

And so I got a little bit of some energy from the initial traction of OpenSpot and went to a couple of local venture capitalist firms and said, hey, this is what we're doing. And they were interested and invested. I went and did it's called Founder University. It was by Jason Calacanis, who's an investor, Silicon Valley guy, early stage in Uber and lots of money and interest in supporting others. And got in a cohort of his and did a pitch contest at the end, won that. So won $25,000 from him for that. And then locally, we had a startup week, Omaha startup week, did my pitch competition at that and actually won that and got another $25,000 from that.

There's a lot of money out there for people that have an idea and can spark interest and tell a good story that there's a lot of people that want to invest in those sorts of things. And then the biggest one was our Nebraska State Department of Economic Development wants to support and grow local businesses. So we got a grant for $100,000 from them to further our product development. And essentially they were paying to have it developed locally. And what that did is it allowed us to start developing the product, taking it from what I made, which was the minimum viable product, which was really the minimum viable product into something that was actually like fancy and pretty and used real code and all those sorts of things.

And so that's kind of been the journey of OpenSpot. The biggest thing that we added now, one of the functionalities, aside from like building the whole product from scratch, was if somebody if you text and say, Hey, John, does tomorrow at 11z;30 work to see Dr. Smith? No. Perfect. We'll keep you on the list. And then it just automatically goes to the next person. Hey, Mary, does tomorrow at 11:30 work? Yes. Perfect. It's your spot or no. Perfect. We'll go to the next person on the list. So really automating that for practices so that once they start and they say, Dr. Smith has an opening tomorrow at 11:30, it will just keep asking people until it finds somebody that will take the spot.

And so functionality like that has really made it easier for practices to get on board with. This is kind of like a set it and forget it. And it's going to keep asking and putting people asking for the next person in line over and over again until it finds somebody for that spot so the staff are really hands off.

John: So how does it get the list of people that are on the list? Does it integrate with the EMR now or with some scheduling?

Dr. Phil Boucher: It either integrates with the EMR or the schedulers just add them to the list for people that want to be on the list. Most practices nowadays will have a very rudimentary wait list functionality. It's often like a three ring binder or a notebook in a drawer. And so we elevate that by just having them have a place where they can put in the relevant information. This patient needs in with Dr. Smith. This patient doesn't care. They'll see whoever's available. This is how much time they need for their appointment, whatever the relevant details are that the schedulers used to make those appointments. We get them to capture that information. They sit on the list and then they can start just pinging and going down the list when they tell us that there's an opening available.

John: Very nice. It reminds me this whole idea of queuing theory people lining up. Family medicine for a while was really pushing for basically an open schedule with no appointments. In other words, you have to call within a day or two of your appointment because the longer your list is, the more you'll have no shows. It's just a correlation. So it sounds like you've solved the problem, get the best of both worlds, have a decent list of people out there. So you're sure you're going to use your resources and then show up. So was this you had to like start a separate business, an LLC or something and you just hire a bunch of software programmers or what?

Dr. Phil Boucher: I really started leaning with this, which was developing it myself and sitting at the computer until I figured out and practiced and made it work. That's part of the nice thing about being in DPC is I see fewer patients per day, which means I have more time for all of these other side things for good and for bad. We had to start a separate LLC, then we had to convert it to a Delaware C-Corp because what I learned is that VC firms want you to have a Delaware C-Corp something. I don't know the specifics, but that's a thing. Like if you think you're ever going to take investors money, then start with a Delaware C-Corp and you'll save yourself a fair amount of lawyer fees and hassles in that regard.

But yeah, those were the biggest things and just all the business stuff behind that, which is pretty typical and people set up businesses all the time. So, there's not anything that a doctor can't learn to do or hire somebody to help them do. But from there, then just figuring out how to market it and get in front of the right people. That's been a lot of trial and error is like who the decision makers are, who are the ones that are actually going to implement this, who's going to maintain it.

And it has mostly come down to the people that we need to talk to, maybe to get initial interests or physicians that say, yeah, this is a problem. I do have a lot of gaps in my schedule that I would like to fill because I don't really want to work more days and I don't really want to just pile more patients in. What if I could just be more efficient in the time that I have, which is filling those gaps in the schedule that creep up.

Because honestly, I think people are less enthusiastic about going to the doctor than in years past. Like you do see a lot more no-shows or last minute cancellations because I think the weight of going to the doctor has less meaning than it used to. And so people are more likely to skip or bail or take a better offer or cancel at the last minute.

And so, if we can get those people to make sure that they tell us within 24 hours, at least 24 hours notice, then we can usually fill those gap spots without having to spend hours on the phone and playing phone tag and all those sorts of things.

John: Well, one of the things that's probably threatening the most physicians is marketing, advertising, promoting, that sort of thing. So just to learn about that, why don't you just market your product to us right now? Tell us, I have physicians that are practicing here. So what are you doing to market it? But just tell us about the website and what we'll see if we go to the website and what we can expect from the product and that kind of thing.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yeah, essentially for most physicians, it's something that you're going to tell your office administrator, "Hey, we're really busy. We have a waiting list out the door, but we have a lot of unfilled appointment spots at the end of the day because of last minute cancellations." And what OpenSpot does is it allows you to fill those holes in the schedule without having your staff overburdened with trying to make phone calls and play phone tag. And it meets patients where they are, which is text messaging. And it just makes it easy for them.

Most physicians task their administrator of looking into it and taking those next steps when it comes to, is it the right fit for us and does it work with our practice workflow? And then the schedulers are the ones that are using it on the day-to-day basis. And so we try and make it make sense for schedulers to see the value of filling those spots, which makes everybody happy. And also not adding to their burden of making phone calls or who's talking to this one, or did somebody already offer this appointment? It just streamlines that entire process so that you know that there's something and it's not a person that could be doing other important work that's working to fill those spots.

John: Is this available nationally? Right now I can call you or go to your website?

Dr. Phil Boucher: Absolutely. Yes, findopenspot.com.

John: findopenspot.com. That's the website. Okay. And how long does it take to implement?

Dr. Phil Boucher: Less than a week. We do all the training and everything along those lines. Once people get set up, we find out what types of appointments they need and what types they have. Because one of the things that I've learned, being a pediatrician, I don't know how everybody else's scheduling flows work. Learning that dermatologists need more time for fillers than Botox seems like something that's intuitive to dermatologists, but it wasn't intuitive to me. And so, learning about the practice and the way that appointments are scheduled, which is just a quick Zoom with your scheduling team to figure out what that looks like, what the relevant information is, because it's all very specific for practices.

Some practices have really wide open schedules, some have very regimented schedules. And so, we're able to work with all of those, but it just takes a quick understanding from your schedulers, how they schedule, what they need to know to make a good appointment, what they don't care about when it comes to scheduling appointments, and then fine-tuning the system so that it gets the relevant information and can make good matches.

John: And let's see, it seems like in the old days, some software would sit on someone's server at their office, but I assume this is actually an app that gets integrated.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yes. It's all browser-based. Chrome browser, Safari browser, whatever browser you're using, it's just a different tab that you would have open that you would switch back and forth to. We've also set it up because it's working in the background. You don't want to have to kind of like tend to it. And so whatever system your practice uses, whether it be email or Slack or Teams, it integrates with those too. So it can say, hey, we filled the spot at 11:30 tomorrow and let this practice know so that they know that that booking has been made when it gets made.

John: And are you doing something actively to promote this besides, I don't know, just talking about it? How do you actually get the word out short of going person to person and calling them and say, hey, do you want this?

Dr. Phil Boucher: That's been the biggest challenge is figuring out the best way to get in front of the decision makers. Some of it's on LinkedIn, some of it's on podcasts and video. Some of it is trade shows. We've done some trade shows where you're talking at the Medical Group Management Association and those sorts of things. Those are all different routes of getting it out there, but it's kind of the approach which I've learned as a pediatrician and marketing my practice. You have to connect. You have to have a lot of touch points before people make that next step. It's not something where they just see it and they go and they sign up.

I'm kind of that way. I'm like an early adopter. I got the first Apple Watch and I'm still going strong with Apple Watches when I first heard about them. I don't have the Apple Vision Pro thing yet, but I think most people need a lot of touch points before they realize, hey, this is something that I need to look into.

I know that like the people that are listening to this, it's probably unlikely that they're going to go and just put in their credit card information and sign up. But if they hear from me and they see me on a bunch of different channels on a regular basis, then that probably is going to nudge them and eventually they're going to be like, hey, let me forward this to my office administrator. We should look into this because I frequently have all of these gaps in my schedule and I know the schedulers are too busy to be calling patients. And that's what it's going to take to actually get that first phone call and that discussion rolling.

I think that's something that I intuitively knew and was reminded of over and over again, is that it takes a lot of touch points for people to do something about it. And also when there's a little bit of change involved, that it's going to take a lot of time from a change management perspective.

John: And if they go to findopenspot.com, is there a contact form or do they sign up to do a call with you or how does that work?

Dr. Phil Boucher: Usually people just book a demo. We chat through and figure out if it's a good fit even, and then from there decide how to integrate it into their workflows if that's something that they're looking for. But the easiest way is just to book a demo that's free and you just book it straight from there and it's a Zoom call where we can talk through what they're looking for.

John: And you told me as we were organizing this meeting that, oh, you thought you'd create some other software, another tool. So why don't you quickly give us a rundown on where you are with that, what it does. Are you in the same business or is this now another business?

Dr. Phil Boucher: I'd say this is just a spinoff of OpenSpot, in terms of lie the hierarchy of businesses. OpenSpot is great for busy practices that are full and they've got a wait list of at least four weeks and they're really trying to fill those gaps. They're trying to increase efficiency.

As a DPC pediatrician, I get to talk with a lot of DPC doctors, both in family medicine and internal medicine and in pediatrics and specialty care. And one of the things that they need, they don't have full practices and long wait lists. I don't have a wait list. We don't use OpenSpot in my practice. If you need an appointment today, John, you would just text and say, hey, my son fell and I think he needs stitches. And we would just text back and say, come on over. There's not a wait in that capacity for DPC.

But what they need to do is they need to really have a lot of touch points with prospective patients to get them to say, okay, this is the practice for me, or I understand how this works and how it'd be beneficial. And so, what we created then for that side of practices, small practices, growing practices, startup practices, is essentially a HIPAA compliant CRM. CRM is Client Relationship Manager in business speak. But essentially it's a way to manage the relationship and manage the outreach and touch points with potential customers, potential patients in a way that helps them stay organized, know who's reached out, know where people are at in the pipeline of their customer journey of initial reach out, learning more, book a meet and greet, join the practice, loss to follow up, those sorts of things.

And so, what practice leads does is it allows for small practices to manage those leads as they come in and nurture them along to the point where then they're taking that next step. Because what I found was a lot of practices are really good at the first touch points or meeting patients at the baby expo or the health convention or whatever it might be, but then they were losing them to follow up because they just weren't making enough touch points with them to stay top of mind.

Because most people today aren't looking for a new doctor and you really have to convince them that there's something better for them. But over time, you can do that if you have enough touch points, enough nurture points, if you're able to talk to them on a regular enough basis to say, hey, maybe there is a better way, or maybe we offer something that your regular practice doesn't, or maybe we have a special evaluation that we do that we need to explain in a little bit more depth to you how we do it and what we do.

And so, what Practice Leads does is it allows you to track those leads as they come in, nurture them along, have one place, one inbox that has text message, email, contact us forms, Instagram, Facebook, all of that in one continuous stream of information so that you're not looking in seven different places to remember where somebody contacted you and how they reached you and what their deal is. That's what Practice Leads is. It's a HIPAA compliant CRM for small and growing practices.

John: Very nice. So that is up and running now and accessible to the practicing physicians?

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yes. And the thing that I love about it, one, is that it's HIPAA compliant, and two, is that it lets you do it all in one place, and three, is it's completely customizable. And so, the way that we use that in my practice is we've been doing a lot of ADHD evaluations. Before somebody books an ADHD evaluation with me, they probably want to know that I know what I'm talking about and that I'm not just going to push medicines on them because most people these days want to try things other than medicines.

The way that we work that is they start with a webinar that's free and on demand, and it's about how food impacts our child's behavior and attention and focus. And then from there, they get a series of emails and text messages that share more about our process and what we do and how we do it and what an evaluation looks like and what it doesn't look like and who it's good for and who doesn't really need it. And here's some other strategies that you can implement before you get to an evaluation.

And over time, we build trust, we build rapport, we build that trust factor that really is important before somebody decides, I'm going to book an evaluation. And so, what Practice Leads does is allows us to monitor those parents, as they're going through the process of watching the webinar, opening emails, reading blog posts, reading news articles that we send them. It allows you to automate that process so you know where they're at in that funnel that you've created to get them to eventually, over enough touch points, decide they're the right practice for me. I want to get an ADHD evaluation. This is timely because school is starting sooner. We're really struggling with this and that or the other thing. You build that relationship and you're the one that they turn to then when they actually need something.

John: Excellent. Well, what's the website for that?

Dr. Phil Boucher: GetPracticeLeads.com.

John: GetPracticeLeads.com. Okay, obviously, I'll put that in the show notes along with the OpenSpot link as well. And actually, the link to your practice because I think people will find it interesting just to see what you look like online when people are thinking about joining your practice.

Well, this is very interesting. I'm definitely going to follow up with you down the road here and see how things are going. Any last advice? I guess I'm going to stop there. Any last advice though about, I don't know, it seems like things are exciting with what you're doing. Just practicing in the US, is it possible to make it fun and profitable at the same time for physicians?

Dr. Phil Boucher: I think it is, but I don't think that you're going to find as much fun stuck in an organization or a large institution. And I think more physicians are getting really hip to that. This that we've been sold, the large employer, they often trade autonomy and care for more RVUs. And what that means for physicians often is that they feel like they're not anywhere near the top of the food chain. And they're often feel very replaceable and just like a cog in the wheel. And I think that you can have a lot more fun and enjoy medicine and practice medicine the way that you want when you have more control over the way that you practice it. And I think physicians are often afraid because they feel like business is too hard.

Because I graduated from medical school 15 years ago, 16 years ago, something like that. We got no business training at all. And it feels like maybe it was intentional because they want to grow academics and they want to grow large institutional employees. And so, why would we tell you about business? Business is hard. How are you going to figure out your books? How are you going to do bookkeeping and taxes? Those things sound hard. Let's just keep you at the academic center or at the large organization and you'll be miserable. But at least you won't have to do those things.

But then I talked to physicians and there's a million new small businesses that open in the US every single year. Most of the small business people that are opening these businesses don't have the training, don't have the cash flow, don't have the connections that every physician in the country has.

And so, I always encourage people there's a way to figure out how to go into business for yourself and to practice medicine or to serve the people that you feel called to serve, which for me, I love taking care of parents and families locally. I love helping other physicians to grow their practices. I love helping thriving practices to thrive even more or to get physicians their time back so that they can do with it what they like, whether it's being more efficient in their day to day, whether it's growing their practice with marketing, whatever it might be to give them more autonomy and more freedom to do what's really important to them and to focus on those sorts of things.

There's a way to figure all those things out. But it does take a little bit of risk, but you've done risky things before. It does take a little bit of learning, but you've learned for decades now. You can do all these things if you just feel like, okay, maybe there's another way to do it because there's a lot of people out there that are really unhappy in their practices. I can't spend that much time on the physician Facebook groups anymore because there's so much negativity and it's not their fault. It's the system that they're a part of and that they're forced to work within that's really causing a lot of that burnout and a lot of that cynicism that you see in a lot of the Facebook groups.

But there's another way and it can be really fun and it can be really profitable and you can really enjoy your life more. I wake up and I am ready to go and I have these long lists of things to do. I wish I could do all the things that are on my list every day, but I have a really good team that helps me to hone down what I actually need to do and then they do the other things that help me to thrive. It's just such a fun way to practice and it's such a fun career of helping everybody that I can help.

John: Fantastic. Very inspirational. You rock, man. I love what you're saying. I agree with it. If I was 20 years younger, I might jump in myself, but I can at least get the word out and you've been very helpful in getting that word out today, Phil. Please do.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Please do. I know I give you my cell phone number. You can put that in the show notes and just tell anybody that wants to. I'm decent in email. I'm getting better at email, but the best way to reach me is to text because it's hard for me to ignore when my little green box on the thing says one or 12 or whatever. Text me. Anyone out there, any physician out there can absolutely text me to chat and figure out how to help them.

It's not to get you to join OpenSpot or Practice Leads or anything like that. It's just I love helping and I love brainstorming for physicians. I think that there are very few specialties where you can't do something outside the box of what you're doing right now. I don't know how heart surgeons can work outside of a large center, but everyone else that doesn't require a cardiopulmonary bypass can figure out something outside of the hospital if they're sick of being an employed physician and want to do something else.

John: I'll definitely put that in the show notes. You listeners look in there and they have the number. You can text Phil or reach out and check this out however way you want to. I will do that. All right, Phil. With that, I am going to say goodbye and let you go. I hope to talk to you again in the near future.

Dr. Phil Boucher: Yeah, let's not have four years pass between our next chat.

John: Okay, bye now.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Building the Private Practice of the Future with Technology appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Today we provide an inspiring story and learn how to become an IME (Independent Medical Examiner) from an expert orthopedic surgeon in this classic episode from 2021.

Dr. Emily Woolcock is an internationally recognized speaker, best-selling author, mentor, and consultant. She is among the country’s most well-known orthopedic surgeons. Dr. Woolcock is board-certified by the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery and the American Board of Independent Medical Examiners.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Dr. Woolcock Begins Doing IMEs

Dr. Woolcock founded businesses in Georgia, Florida, and Maryland. They include the Orthopedic and Joint Replacement Institute, the Accident Rehabilitation Center, and National Orthopedic Consultants. In 2016 she established the IME Academy. Through the Academy, she teaches students to perform defensible, literature-based independent medical examinations.

Emily is passionate about helping other physicians. So she helps them break free from the work/life balance issues she experienced early in her career. As a wife and mother, she understands the struggles physicians and other healthcare professionals face. 

When she first began experiencing burnout, she found that a skill she learned in residency could solve her problem. She began performing highly compensated independent medical exams. By doing IME consulting and delegating nonclinical work to team members she cut back on her office and operating room commitments.

How to Become an IME

Emily is a very creative and dedicated physician. She balances clinical work, performing IMEs, writing books, and mentoring dozens of young people. She is busy. Yet, she loves her work. And she is not burned out. 

This is the first time I had a guest with the expertise to explain how to become an IME. It is similar to what an expert witness does. But it also involves examining patients, which some of you might find more compelling as a side job.

Like expert witness work, learning to be an IME pays very well. You generally must continue to practice medicine, at least part-time.

Find out what makes you happy and learn to  integrate that with your vocational calling and you will be a much better, well-rounded person. – Dr. Emily Woolcock

Emily provided inspiration and valuable information. She knows this topic well. If you’re interested in learning to be an IME you can find her course at theimeacademy.com.

Summary

Dr. Emily Woolcock describes her inspirational story. She discovered a way to reduce her work time while producing more income by performing Independent Medical Examinations. In this interview, she explains how you can do the same and improve your work-life balance. 

Links for Today's Episode:

• The IME Academy
• Dr. Emily Woolcock Website
• Dr. Emily Woolcock LinkedIn Page
• My Doctor Looks Like Me, by Emily d. Woolcock, MD (female ver.)
• My Doctor Looks Like Me, by Emily Woolcock, MD (male ver.)
• Mi Doctor Looks Like Me, by Emily Woolcock, MD (Spanish ver.)
• Looks Like Me Books Facebook Page

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post How to Become an IME: A PNC Classic from 2021 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.