newscript Archives - NonClinical Physicians

Expert Witness or Medical Legal Consulting: Which Should You Pursue?

John Jurica — Tue, 28 Nov 2023 16:06:35 +0000

Episode 328

In today's episode, John helps listeners to decide whether expert witness or medical legal consulting best aligns with your needs.

From decoding the nuances of medical documentation to navigating the uncharted waters of depositions and court testimony, John shares a roadmap for physicians eager to diversify their careers.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Did you know that you can sponsor the Physician Nonclinical Careers Podcast? As a sponsor, you will reach thousands of physicians with each episode to sell your products and services or to build your following. For a modest fee, your message will be heard on the podcast and will continue to reach new listeners for years after it is released. The message will also appear on the website with over 8,000 monthly visits and in our email newsletter and social media posts. To learn more, contact us at john.jurica.md@gmail.com and include SPONSOR in the Subject Line.

The Role of Physicians in Translation and Interpretation

John sheds light on the pivotal role physicians play in translating and interpreting complex medical concepts. He highlights instances where clinicians, whether employed or in a consulting role, act as bridges between the clinical and administrative realms.

Examples include positions in clinical documentation integrity (CDI), quality improvement, utilization management, and informatics, where physicians serve as interpreters for those without a clinical background.

Nonclinical Career Paths: Expert Witness Consulting and Medical-Legal Consulting

Delving into nonclinical career options, John explores two distinct avenues—expert witness consulting and medical-legal consulting. He elaborates on the differences between the two, discussing the responsibilities, compensation, and prerequisites for each.

Expert witness consulting, involving legal testimony, is contrasted with medical-legal consulting, a role centered on reviewing, summarizing, and advising on cases without the necessity for courtroom appearances or depositions.

Both freelance consulting businesses offer the benefit of producing hourly revenues that exceed those of typical clinical activities. Yet, they can be done remotely, and with no risk of the kind of lawsuits that practicing physicians must endure.

Summary

For those considering expert witness consulting, John suggests Dr. Gretchen Green's comprehensive course and SEAK, an organization that offers resources and directories for physicians learning to be expert witnesses. Dr. Armin Feldman's offerings cater to those interested in medical-legal consulting. Both courses cover essential aspects, from legalities to business setup.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

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Download This Episode:

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If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 328

Expert Witness or Medical Legal Consulting: Which Should You Pursue?

John: I am doing this on my phone. I think the clarity will be a little bit less than usual. I did a dry run earlier and it was kind of breaking up a little bit, but we'll do our best today. I just want to spend 10 or 15 minutes talking about a particular topic that interest to me, and it's something I've noticed. And then I will talk about the generalities and then work my way into two different nonclinical careers that one might consider to do either as a side gig or full-time, although only one of them can be done as a full-time job.

I'm in Scottsdale, Arizona. I normally am in the Chicago area where I live most of my time, but my wife and I bought a small house out here and it's been getting renovated and we're just kind of out here to check on things. And so, that's part of the issue. But let me get started.

One of the things I've noticed when physicians or other clinicians, anybody's looking for a new position, a new job, particularly in healthcare, even if they decide to do some consulting or even if they're employed, that the jobs that open up for physicians and other clinicians involves either translating or interpreting things.

Because what you do is you start with your one foot in the healthcare medical world and then you obtain some expertise in another area that benefits physicians, benefits healthcare organizations. And then as an employee or as a consultant, you can be the person who can educate and interpret the language and the concepts that maybe are foreign to one side or the other, just like the CEO of a hospital doesn't really understand what a physician goes through for their education, training background and all that. It doesn't really understand how nurses and physicians and therapists interact with patients and kind of bond that we have.

And this is why we get in trouble sometimes because we're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole because the CEO is thinking in terms of the bottom line and finances and making things as productive as possible, and the physicians, nurses, therapists and others are thinking about, "How can I make this patient better? How can I help this patient understand what's going on?"

That comes up a lot and I'll give you some just simple examples. These are jobs I've always talked about in the healthcare field, in hospitals. Let's say clinical documentation improvement. That is a position as a physician advisor or medical director where you are explaining to your colleague physicians the rules and regulations around using the ICD-10 or the DRG system or whatever it may be. It's not really intuitive, it doesn't correlate directly with what we do clinically. In the CDI world, there's different levels. Usually three levels on the inpatient side for heart failure, for pneumonia and so forth. But they're all based on trying to figure out the complexity and then paying a higher amount for the more complex.

But it doesn't directly correlate with what we've learned as physicians and nurses in terms of treating those patients. And so, the physician advisor or medical directors interpreting and translating the concepts from one group to another. That's a great place to be. And there's a lot of jobs and they pay very well when you can find yourself in that important position of making that translation and making that connection and helping others get what they need. And at the same time, capture the true medical information.

Well, the same thing is true in informatics. A medical informaticist is translating to his or her colleagues. Concepts that need to be understood in terms of using an EMR or even beyond that, tracking data. And then it kind of extends into quality improvement where we have to maybe explain the statistical factors that are used in analyzing billing data to measure quality.

And again, it's not an easy to understand topic, but a quality medical director would spend a lot of their time explaining the p-values we use when we're looking at those statistical differences. And the reason why we feel that these comparisons between patients, between groups of patients, groups of physicians and their quality is really truly statistically significant and at the same time is risk adjusted, which is the big issue a lot of times in accepting quality improvement data.

Again, these are all interpretations and translations between these groups of people and get them to buy in and understand then learn how to do it better. UM it's the same thing. We don't think in terms of utilization management or benefits management when we're trying to take care of our patients, but if we do understand it better, then we can actually be more effective.

But one area where this comes up, which we don't normally think of as specifically this issue, but it is, and that's in any kind of consulting. And the type of consulting I am going to talk about today is legal. Medical legal types of consulting. And when I think about that as a nonclinical job, I think of maybe two sides of the same coin. Probably the most common areas where attorneys and physicians interact. And that is on one hand being an expert witness consultant or starting on expert witness consulting business, and what many of us now call medical-legal consulting.

Those are two really different ways of interfacing with the legal system as a healthcare provider. There are some opportunities in both of those for let's say a nurse or a physical therapist, something like that. Probably more opportunities for physicians. That's what I'm going to be speaking about for the next five minutes or so.

Let's compare those two types of consulting. Expert witnesses. Most of us understand what that means. Basically, we will provide services to an attorney and usually picking one side or the other in this case because it's usually because of a lawsuit that has been filed. And in this case it's often a medical liability lawsuit. And so, as an expert witness, you can be on the side of the patient who's accusing the physician of doing something wrong or missing something or failing to document something or failing to communicate. There's a whole lot of reasons why you can get sued.

And other expert witness consultants are going to be on the acute side, the physician side, explaining why the physician really did follow the standard of care. And that sometimes things just don't go well because it's the nature of medicine. We all die, we all get sick, we all have injuries that hopefully we treat properly and within the scope of practice and within the standard of care.

Now, an expert witness, number one, it's a very highly compensated physician. Let's say that you're going to be an expert witness for a family physician. Let's say you're a family physician. Now many expert witnesses, of course, are board certified, fellowship trained even in specific subspecialties, but there are a lot of internists, ER docs, family physicians who do expert witness consulting because you just have to talk to the standard of care, which most of us know very well because we work in it every day.

But it's very good pay. So, we'll start with that. Let's say I'm on a three star scale. I would say its three stars. Really as a family physician or an internist, if you take all the hours you work doing your medical records and everything into account, you'd be lucky to make $100 to $150 an hour. Because usually, let's say you're making $200,000 to $300,000 a year. If you're working 60 or 70 hours a week, that doesn't come up to that much. As an expert witness, you are going to be charging 2, 3, 4 times that amount on an hourly basis, and you get paid for every minute you spend doing that work unlike in clinical practice, which is why the numbers don't look so good.

That's one good thing about being an expert witness. However, most expert witnesses have to be in practice, active practice because they start to lose their credibility if they start to do that full-time. You can definitely cut back on your hours in clinical. And what I often talk about is spending, let's say you could easily drop 20 hours of clinical practice to do 10 hours of expert witness care or expert witness consulting and make equal to or more than you would've clinically. So, it is very well paid, and the more experience you get and the more time you've done it, then the better the pay gets and you can charge higher levels.

As an expert witness, you're doing three things. Basically you are reviewing charts and writing reports about your opinion. And then you might be attending a deposition and you might end up testifying in court. Now, most attorneys don't like to... Well, it's not that they don't like to go to court, but they prefer to have a settlement if they can. I think the patients prefer that. Oftentimes the physician prefers that or whoever else is being sued.

When you're involved as an expert witness, you're doing mostly chart review and report, and then you're doing a smaller percentage of depositions and then some go quite a while before they ever have to testify in court. But eventually it will probably happen if you do it long term. You obviously need to be licensed because you need to be in practice and you probably need to be board certified to do that.

Now, there's a different type of expert consulting called medical-legal consulting, specifically as a terms coined by Dr. Armin Feldman, who to some extent has actually created this specialty. And what's nice about medical-legal consulting is it still pays very well, probably double what you would make an hourly basis as a physician.

But it does not require testimony in court. It does not require even doing a deposition. And you're not acting as an expert witness. What you're doing is you're reviewing records here, organizing records, summarizing records, and then providing feedback to the attorney about whether the case should be pursued or not.

And these cases, which usually fall into this category are personal injury cases, workers' comp, automobile accidents, which is a type of personal injury. And so, you're putting what can sometimes be a very complex situation and in which an insurance company has refused payment or the insurance company of a business has refused payment. You've heard of these cases, you've probably been involved in these cases where one of your patients gets injured and it's sometimes hard to know for sure how much is organic, how much is secondary gain, are there ways to sort that out?

And so, Dr. Feldman came up with this pre-litigation medical-legal consulting where you as a physician will help to sort through that. And the thing about this is you don't necessarily have to be in active practice to do this. You just need to have a medical degree. It helps to be board certified in something. You don't necessarily have to maintain your maintenance of certification because when you're doing these reviews, you've narrowed your focus now down to injuries. And really you just need to know the basic physiology and the basic approach to evaluation and treatment. You can learn as you go and you can become an expert in this area with just a little bit of time and effort. And you're not worried about having this go to court. If one of these does go to court and you need a medical expert, then that will be an expert witness consult that will take care of them.

But as a physician, you can analyze, and again, some nurses do this as well looking at it from the nursing standpoint, but physicians are in a particularly good position to say that within a reasonable degree of medical certainty, either A, this is caused by the accident or isn't. B, what are some of the unrecognized illnesses?

And your main goal is to try to maximize the support and the payments to the patient. And if you look at it from that perspective, you're not trying to gain the system or take advantage of the insurance company or the employer. Usually workers' comp covers this obviously, but you're just trying to make sure that all those things that resulted from the accident, from whatever happened, are fairly compensated. And we've all seen patients who have what seemed to be a minor accident and then a year or two later they're still having problems.

They might have developed some long-term complication, what we used to call reflex sympathetic dystrophy, which is severely debilitating. And there have been many times where patients were not compensated and didn't receive the care they needed for something that was a delayed result of an injury like that. So, it's really an interesting area.

Again, it involves interpreting and advising and translating information and then putting things into a report. Both of these that I've talked about today are good ways to reduce your burnout, do something that you enjoy, apply all the medical knowledge that you have garnered over the years to a particular field. And in the case of expert witness, over time you can cut back your clinical time to 10 or 20 or less hours a week, do some expert witness consulting and make a better income than you would have burning both ends of the candle doing clinical work.

And in the medical-legal consulting, again, you could do that part-time, you could do it full-time and you can definitely make a lot of income without the stress of working in a high pressure corporate style environment.

Now I want to talk to you a little bit about some resources that we have available to us. And some of these I have promoted in the past. I'm not an affiliate for either of these experts I'm going to mention, but let me just tell you what I know here. If you're interested in becoming an expert witness, there are courses you can take to build the business standpoint how to do that legally and how to set up things as well as understanding how attorneys think, how they speak and being able to talk their language.

I've had Dr. Gretchen Green on my podcast two or three times, and she produces a very, very good expert witness course. I think it's completed over four or five weeks. It's rather intense. It has a lot of homework, it has a lot of supporting materials. Really she's been doing this now for three or four years and I've spoken with some of her graduates and they are definitely pleased with it. So, you can find that at theexpertresource.com/enroll if you want to learn specifically about that course. Because I think she has some other courses.

Now, there's also another resource for becoming an expert witness, which is SEAK. It's the same organization that puts on an annual nonclinical career meeting on a weekend in October. I think they're up to the 14th or 15th iteration of that. But one of the things they're also well known for is teaching physicians how to learn to be an expert witness. They have resources where you can get your name put in these directories that they then share with attorneys.

There's a lot out there about becoming an expert witness. And rather than struggle through it, you'd probably be best to take advantage of one of these resources. I think the SEAK resources mainly are on a CD or online, although I think they also have a live version of that. That's just something to think about as you can kind of morph your practice into half expert witness, half regular clinical practice.

Now on the other side, medical-legal consulting, Dr. Armin Feldman has his course. He does it in different ways. I actually took his course over a period of four or five weeks. There was a series of videos although he also sometimes does a live version of that. He also has a one year coaching program where he'll walk you through the entire process. I think it's a combination of videos and a lot of coaching from him to where you can have your practice set up.

This could be something for people that are in active practice, something where you're maybe semi-retired and there are definitely retired physicians who do this as well. As long as you stay current in this particular field, you can write wonderful reports, really help your attorneys to decide whether to move forward, whether to settle and you help get your attorney client's patients all the help they need for some long chronic result of an injury that occurred either through an auto accident or work related.

Dr. Feldman's website is mdbizcon.com. If you go there, there is a little intro where you'll learn more about it and they'll give you an opportunity to learn in a really quick fashion. Again, I took the course. I have, I don't know how many files that I've downloaded and went through multiple times. He walks you through, he shows you how to create letters to generate business. So you've got setting up the business, marketing, and so forth.

A lot of things Gretchen Green talks about in her course. It's pretty similar no matter what sort of side gig you're doing, you got usually involved in setting up an LLC and setting up your accounting and then doing marketing, creating all the fields, maybe setting up a website. And these are the kind of things that they both talk about in their respective courses.

The other thing that Armin has, which is really interesting, is he created a podcast which is designed for the attorneys themselves so that they understand how to work with a medical legal consultant and help them understand the lingo that we're using. And that podcast is called Physicians Helping Attorneys Helping People, although if you look up Physicians Helping Attorneys, you'll get to it. I think it's got at least 30 or 40 episodes now. It was just started about a year or so ago. I've listened to just about every episode. It's extremely interesting and very helpful and for no cost whatsoever you can really get an idea of what a medical-legal consultant does in this role.

I'm just looking at my notes here to see if I forgot anything. Nope, I think that's it. Remember that in a lot of your nonclinical jobs, you're going to end up being in the middle as a consultant who does interpretations and helps other people understand the other side of the equation of whatever it is you're talking about. And specifically the medical-legal has a lot of opportunities. And you might consider expert witness consulting or medical legal pre-litigation consulting.

All right, with that, I will close for today and I hope to see you next week.

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What’s New in My World and Is Coaching Worth the Expense?

John Jurica — Tue, 21 Nov 2023 14:39:17 +0000

What's New and the Cost of Coaching – Episode 327

In today's episode, John shares what's new, and explores the cost-benefit considerations of career coaching. This topic was triggered by a podcast listener's question. It is a common concern of those seeking a major career pivot, and are considering whether to hire a coach to help them navigate the process.

He guides listeners on how to discern the right type of coach, considering multiple factors, including the cost. Before getting into that topic, he also provides an update regarding what's new with NewScript, the Nonclinical Career Academy, and former podcast guests.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

Understanding the Value of Expertise in Coaching

John explains his perspective on using a coach to accelerate one's professional advancement. He challenges the perception that coaching should be priced solely based on the hours spent, asserting that it's about the value derived from the coach's expertise. He explains the importance of coaches committing to tangible results, drawing parallels to his experience as a CMO where outcomes were paramount.

Choosing the Right Coach for Your Goals

John discusses the importance of selecting a coach aligned with your objectives, emphasizing that experienced coaches, despite their higher fees, offer valuable expertise. He touches upon the price range, mentioning that fees can vary, from a few thousand dollars for shorter sessions to potentially higher amounts for longer-term coaching. He advises prospective clients to carefully assess a coach's approach and seek references before making a decision.

Summary

The best coaches are well-trained, with years of practical experience. Many have expertise in specific industries and serve as mentors and consultants. The cost of hiring a coach can be significant. But in most cases, those costs are justified by the improved lifestyles, career advancement, and higher salaries the clients achieve as a result of their coaching.

As explained during the episode, Dr. Debra Blaine has recently released her 4th novel. It is called The Meriki Effect and can be found at most large bookstores and here on Amazon (this is an Amazon affiliate link).

And Dr. Andrew Wilner is releasing the 100th episode of his popular podcast called The Art of Medicine on December 10th. It is an eclectic collection of interviews that will entertain and educate listeners like you. It can be found on all major podcast channels, including iTunes, Buzzsprout, and The Art of Medicine on YouTube.

And if you'd like to listen to Dr. Wilner's interview with Dr. Blaine from three years ago, that can be found RIGHT HERE on YouTube.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

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Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 327

What's New in My World and Is Coaching Worth the Expense?

John: Okay, before I get into the actual topic for today, I'm going to tell you a little story, which obviously will relate to the question. There was a time in Russia when all religions were basically banned. Churches were closed. There were no gatherings allowed to pray, and they were being persecuted. It doesn't mean that all the activities stopped, of course, because you can't really keep people from worshiping if that's what they've been taught and what they grew up doing.

But anyway, after a while, things did loosen up and the brave believers could go back to church. There was a priest in a very small town who began to spend time every day in his church. And the mayor or magistrate of that town didn't like it. He was still against having those kinds of gatherings and allowing people to do that. He sent a soldier to stand at the front of the church every day at the front, at the door to intimidate the priest when he would go over there. When he tried to enter the church, the soldier was to demand the answer to questions. The questions were the following. Number one was, who are you? And the other was, why are you here? And so then the priest would have to take a moment and quietly and without being too aggressive, answer the questions. And then the soldier would begrudgingly let him in.

This went on every day. The priest was going every day. The soldier was there every day, rain or shine, snow, whatever. And week after week and month after month, this soldier would ask, "Who are you and why are you here?" And the priest would adjust his answers over time as he had more time to try and come up with answers. But finally things really loosened up. And the soldier informed the priest that day would be his last day because he was being reassigned and being no longer a soldier at the door.

The priest looked at him and he said, "Sir, when you finish your career as a soldier, I'd like you to come back here and resume your duties. Because you have no idea how much you've helped me by forcing me to answer those two questions each day for myself, who am I and why am I here?"

I like that story. And honestly, I heard that story from a bishop who was residing over a Catholic mass in Lourdes, France. You can imagine that the setting was kind of interesting, and I won't go into too much, but I had never heard that story before. And so, it has stuck with me.

But it relates to coaches, because for some coaching, that's kind of the crux of their coaching. "Why am I here? Who am I? What do I stand for? Who am I? Why am I here? What are my goals? What are my plans?" Things like that.

The question that I was asked earlier this week was pretty straightforward. Basically, described what he wanted, what his situation was, why he was looking to find a new career. And he had contacted several coaches with the information and had told him what he wanted, what he needed.

And one of the coaches said, "Well, she was going to provide three hours of coaching, split up three separate hours, and it was going to address the three issues that he really had asked her to address." And she was going to charge somewhere between $2,000 and $3,000 to do that. And so, the follower or the listener from the podcast that emailed me said that to him that sounded kind of "steep", it sounded kind of expensive particularly since it was going to be limited to three hours. Maybe he did the math, I don't know, but he was maybe expecting a lower number. I provided my answer, and what I'm going to do now is sort of doing an extended version of the answer that I provided to him.

Thinking about my answer to this and this issue, brings up another story, actually. We can call it a parable, but I think this one is actually real. But there was a factory, actually, a publisher owned a multimillion dollar offset press that it used to print weekly tabloids. And one day the press came to a screeching halt. It just died. It made a really loud noise, stopped running, and that was it. The people working at the print shop, they were working on this massive press, tried everything they knew to get it running again. The operators, the maintenance staff, they even had mechanical engineers at the plant, and they were unable to get that machine to run again. They were out of business temporarily until they either replaced the machine or got it fixed. The operations VP called around to all of her colleagues to try to identify someone who might know how to solve this problem, recounting everything that they had tried so far.

And there was one name that came up several times during those calls. The VP reached out and contacted this consultant, made arrangements to come by the next day. Now, I said the word consultant, and when I'm talking about consultants and coaches, there's a lot of overlap. Sometimes I'll use those terms interchangeably because when we're talking about career coaching, a lot of that is consulting too, because you're not just doing the generic things that a coach would do, which are very similar to what a therapist would do, but you get into a lot of specifics when you're doing career coaching as to how to apply, where to apply and that kind of thing.

This consultant spoke to everybody who ran the press, everybody who tried to repair it. He looked at the machine for about 30 minutes, made a few adjustments, and he was able to get that press running a few minutes after doing all of that. The thing was, the VP was pretty upset when the consultant handed her a bill for $15,000 for repairing the machine. And she asked him how he could justify $15,000 for about one hour's worth of work. And what the consultant told him was, "Look, you didn't hire me as an hourly employee telling me what to do. You needed my expertise. No one else could have solved this problem. I spent the last 30 years acquiring unique experience and knowledge to be able to fix this particular problem."

And so, that wasn't what the $15,000 for. It wasn't his time there, his ability to remove a piece of the equipment or whatever it was. Knowing what to do, having seen that kind of problem before, reaching into their mental toolbox and figuring out, "Okay, this is what's going to solve this problem."

And I'm sure the other part of the argument was, "Look, if I hadn't come today and solved this problem, you would probably at best be able to get the manufacturer to come out here in two or three days and maybe solve the problem within the next few days or even a week. And by that time, you would be way beyond $15,000 worth of lost revenue, not to mention a lot of unhappy customers."

I use that again as an example of what we're talking about in coaching and consulting. So, you have to change the way you look at this. First of all, what I know is that the most experienced and effective coaches will probably charge the most for their time. And if you're thinking about it, let's say you're applying for a job as a physician or a clinician, let's say an APN, PA or whatever, pharmacist, you're going to be making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

If you're a physician, it could be $300,000, $400,000 a year and whatever job you're going into, whether it's clinical or nonclinical. And to expect to hire an effective coach for $100 an hour or $200 an hour for you to land a job that's going to stop a lot of your problems, make you happier or make you less stressed, uses your skills. There's a lot that goes into that. You should expect to be paying that person just doing the job you would be applying for can make $200 or $300 an hour. So why would they devote time and sharing their expertise with someone for less than that at least.

And the thing is, if you need specific information, this is where I'm talking about the expertise of a really focused consultant or coach. Let's say you want to get a particular job in a particular industry that's going to pay very well, and that means the coach has probably had that job or has hired someone to that job, knows the job description, knows what the must haves and the nice to have skills or experiences needed to land that job would be, then it's going to be worth a multiple of that $200 to $300 an hour.

And again, if you're talking about just general life coaching, it's going to be on the lower end because there's just general principles that can be applied. But if you also want to get in, I need specifics of how to write my resume, how to send out a cover letter, where do I apply? What's the quickest? There's some things that you have no idea.

For example, for some jobs in pharma, let's say, you really should apply to a CRO rather to a pharmaceutical company. And a good coach that is let's say addressing pharmaceutical jobs in the pharmaceutical industry will have that kind of knowledge. Someone in hospital health systems, they're going to have specific knowledge as to what the CFO, the CEO and the CMO are looking for in hiring a medical director or even a VP for somebody in that facility.

Another way to look at it is to consider what is your goal when you're thinking about engaging a coach? And maybe this will help make it even more clear. Is it a simple task or a complex task? That's a big differential. If we're talking about, okay, I want to learn how to plant the tree, I want to learn how to fix a tech problem, or let's say repair my bicycle. Well, to learn that, to get coaching for that, it's pretty simple. You can go online, you can Google it, you can go on YouTube and within five minutes they'll walk you through a process. You can answer those questions.

But if we think about some other more complex sorts of goals like landing a new job, starting a successful business, I can imagine even winning your first election, I've never tried that, but I'm assuming that they're experts and coaches and consultants that help you do that. And they're not going to be cheap.

Even this is a good one that I talked to a podcast guest about, and that was gaining admission to a top tier medical school. Now, there are dozens and dozens of things that you should do. Now we think we know how we're going to do that, obviously get the best grades we can and write a good letter of introduction and do the application properly. But there are people that are paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars per hour because they're thinking, "Okay, I want to get into this residency in this specialty." You name it, whatever, gastroenterology or otolaryngology. And I have my eye on two or three fellowships and two or three residency programs and maybe a really top tier medical school for whatever reason. That's not how I did it. I just want to get into med school so I can be a doctor.

But there are coaches who specialize in starting with the undergrads, how to get it in the best med school, the best residency, the best fellowship they pay. They're paid hundreds and thousands of dollars to teach them how to do that because there's only a few people that have done it. And besides just being an excellent student and having a good work ethic, there are a lot of little tips and tricks that if you don't know them, you're never going to get into Harvard.

As we get into these more complex and maybe even time-wise, more longitudinal, the cost is going to go up because the number of people with the expertise is going down. Now there are caveats because just because someone says they can do this, shouldn't be you're going to plunk down $5,000, $10,000, whatever, and believe that they can do it. So, there are caveats.

One is what is the deliverable that you want to get from this coaching? Is it just you need an accountability partner who can do basic coaching once a month, once every two weeks to accelerate your progress? Pretty much any good coach, general life coach or business coach can do that, can maybe take you from something you would've done on your own in a year and get it down to six months or two years down to nine months, something like that. And that doesn't require necessarily specific special expertise.

But if you're looking more towards a deliverable that is an outcome, it's like in the hospital setting when we were talking about quality improvement and patient safety. You've got some outcomes. Well, they're not really outcomes, they're processes. I put in place a good quality improvement process, so that means I have good quality, right? No, that doesn't ensure that at all. It just means you have a process which may or may not be delivered appropriately and effectively. The real proof is the outcomes, the patient care outcomes. That's the end point.

So, it's not always easy to get a coach to commit to an end point because so much of what you accomplish when you're being coached is the commitment that you have and the time and the coachability that you have. I like to think of myself as coachable, but it's hard when you have a strong personality. If you might be a little OCD like me or whatever it might be, you might always think that you know how to do things. And so, if you're going to get a coach, you want to be coachable, particularly if you're trying to get an outcome, because most of the time the coach won't take you unless you agree to follow what they do. Otherwise, they can't guarantee the outcome.

I remember this applied too when I was working as a CMO of the hospital. When we had a consultant come in, we always wanted to know what the outcome was. In other words, we didn't want someone to come in and say, "Look, I am going to do some lectures and I'm going to teach your staff all about how to be doing utilization management and reduce your denials. And so, you're going to pay me $1,000 for every lecture. I'm going to do 10 lectures, I get $10,000, and that's how I'm going to address your utilization management and length of stay program."

As opposed to someone who said, "No, we're going to come in, we're going to have a team, and we're going to start by educating everybody. And then once you implement these new things that we're teaching you, we're going to be there side by side watching and coaching your staff how to respond to questions, how to talk to patients, how to talk to physicians, what kind of checklist to use, and really get down into the nitty gritty. And we will guarantee that you're uncollectible revenue because of denials or other metrics that represent that we'll guarantee at least a 20% improvement in that. And generally we shoot for a 50% improvement."

Now you're talking about outcomes. You have to get to that point if you want to really make sure that an expensive coach is worth it. If you're saying, "Well, I want to find a part-time remote job in either utilization management or clinical documentation improvement", and then you try and pin down the coach, "Okay, so you're going to teach me specific ways to accomplish this, and in your estimation, I should be able to land that new job within what period of time." So you might not get an actual guarantee, but you'll might get something like, "Well, if you follow everything that we tell you, come to your meetings, don't blow us off and pay us on time, then yes, we will refund part of your money if that doesn't happen." That's almost like a guarantee.

The way to do that, two things. One is you definitely have to interview your coach, and most coaches have a so-called discovery call, which actually has value because they will give you advice right on that discovery call. But the main purpose of the discovery call really is to have a 30 minute conversation, let's say with the coach, and just hear their voice, tell them to explain why they think they can help you, what would be entailed, do they have a certain way to approach this problem? And really, if at all possible, get some testimonials for sure, although those are usually provided directly by the coach or consultant. But getting references, if you could talk to two or three people that can concretely answer your question, how long were you using this coach? How often did you meet? What were your sessions like? And was there other supporting material? Did they have intellectual property they were sharing with you like checklists and, and resource lists and things that they only share with their coachees? And did they live up to their promise and did you get the job that you thought you were going to get at the end of that coaching?

Sometimes there's coaches that won't do that, but really a few thousand dollars for a few hours with a career coach for a physician is quite reasonable. I know though there are others that go as high as $5,000 or $10,000 over we're talking a year or so because career transition can take a long time. And if you think about it, there are people that spend tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars to be in let's say a monthly meeting with Tony Robbins or some really high powered motivational expert.

The bottom line on the answer to the question that I had earlier this week from that physician was, look, something between t$2,000 and $3,000, if you can make it crystal clear what you're looking for and your expectation is that you should be able to be in a position to really identify the job and apply for the job by the end of your coaching. And if the coach will agree to that, not guaranteeing that you get the job, but really sharing all that knowledge, information and advice and even encouragement, then I would say definitely.

I've paid two people in the past for a year's worth of coaching, which is basically monthly meetings for $8,000 for each, for two totally different reasons. I'm a believer and I think it was worth it. And just like I think it's worth it to pay my fitness coach and work out with him two times a week. And when you add up all the payments that I've done every week for the last few years, it's added up to more than a few thousand dollars and I'm in a lot better health.

And just to be crystal clear, I was saying that the $2,000 to $3,000 for three sessions plus whatever ansley information that the coachee would get was worth it. Now if you're talking about something that goes six months or a year, it's probably going to be much more than that. And I still think that's a good investment.

All right, that's all I have for today. Thank you very much for being here.

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The post What’s New in My World and Is Coaching Worth the Expense? appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

How We Will Survive and Thrive While the Healthcare System Collapses – 297

John Jurica — Tue, 25 Apr 2023 12:00:33 +0000

Conversation with Dr. Tom Davis

In today's episode, Dr. Tom Davis and John have a conversation about how we will survive as the healthcare system around us collapses.

The context is about the challenges the co-founders and members of NewScript go through, and how the collaboration between NewScript Mentors and members can benefit everybody.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete.

NewScript: Background and Goal

NewScript developed from the realization that clinicians are less inclined to use social media platforms for researching nonclinical careers and issues around burnout. Those sites are often less discreet and private. Therefore, NewScript was developed as a private community.

Benefits of NewScript are:

Clinicians can remain anonymous;
Members can easily network with other clinicians seeking a professional transition; and,
There are resources to help members in a collegial and mutually supportive environment.

And NewScript brings together Mentors who are enthusiastic about assisting, training, counseling, motivating, and inspiring members.

Today's Talk Points

During the conversation, the cofounders of NewScript discussed:

Services for large institutions to prevent and address burnout;
Financialization of healthcare;
Generating revenue using the Internet; and,
How authenticity will lead to a following that wants your services.

Advice from Dr. John Jurica

I like to remind people that there's a whole world of other things you can do outside of clinical, and you can do clinical in different ways.

Advice from Dr. Tom Davis

The only barrier to making change is you.

Summary

Healthcare is undergoing constant transformation. Much of that is unfavorable for clinicians.

But there is also reason to be optimistic. It is getting much easier to apply our education and expertise in productive ways outside of the system.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 297

How We Will Survive and Thrive While the Healthcare System Collapses

- Conversation with Dr. Tom Davis

John: Okay, nonclinical nation. It's John Jurica here. Tom is looking at me like I'm crazy because I was pausing for up to a minute because I didn't really realize how I wanted to start today. But it started, so now we're going.

I'm happy to have Tom Davis with me here today. This is a little different type of episode. I had this brainstorm that Tom and I should get on the show occasionally together to just talk about what's going on with NewScript and other things that he and I are both involved with. Some together, some not together.

It's because we're both interested in bringing value to you in an ongoing basis, and there's a lot going on around us in the healthcare system in general. And I think it might be fun to just chat about these things from time to time. So that's what this episode is about. And with that, I will formally say hello, Tom. How are you today?

Dr. Tom Davis: I'm wonderful, John. Thanks for having me on. It's a privilege.

John: The idea here is I'm not really interviewing Tom. We're going to just have a conversation hopefully. So, we're not going to talk about the summit because the summit is actually over even though we're recording this before the summit has been held. So, that's just the peculiarities of recording these things ahead of time.

But anyway, I want to just talk to Tom a little bit about NewScript and remind people that NewScript is out there. It's been out there for a few years. And Tom, what would you say are the most interesting or exciting things going on with NewScript recently? And maybe explain to people exactly what NewScript is for those that aren't members or haven't seen it.

Dr. Tom Davis: Well, first John, I want to congratulate you on the smashing success of the summit. It was amazing.

John: Absolutely. That's what we're anticipating.

Dr. Tom Davis: NewScript came from an idea that folks were getting increasingly wary of using the social media platforms to explore nonclinical careers and issues of burnout and career change, simply because they're not private. What if your employer is of a certain size? I promise that they have a line item in their budget to record every keystroke that you put into the various social media categories because they sell that. That's one of the things that they sell. And that's kind of understandable. Your employer wants to safeguard themselves, but they're also spying on you. I hate to put it like that, but that's it.

So we were looking at creating a kind of a private community. Nothing so grandiose like a private Facebook, although that would be nice. Just a private community people can log on, they can be anonymous and they can connect with faculty members, folks who are in the career transition space and grow comfortable with them and perhaps find their path in life, providing resources to help them and doing it in a mutually supportive environment. That's the vision. And that started about two and a half years ago. And we haven't looked back since.

John: Yeah, I remember when we started, we thought, "Okay, it's going to be somewhat like a Facebook group. We'll just have a main feed. People come in, they can share, they can ask questions, and everybody in the feed can contribute." I think it's been nice because we do have people who are designated as mentors. I think sometimes on one of those social media groups, there are people that you go to when you ask a question, but it's pretty random. Whereas we have recruited people who are interested in helping clinicians, teaching them, advising them, encouraging them, inspiring them.

And so, they're in there, they can be tapped. And it's not just you and me that are responding to comments or questions. That's one thing I like about it. And then as we come across materials that are useful, we have places in NewScript to post those. I tend to grab whatever webinar I've recently done and put a copy of that in there. I have some of my old material that I used. Well, it's still in my academy and elsewhere, and you've added a lot of value as well. So, maybe you could talk a little bit more about that.

Dr. Tom Davis: I went ahead and posted all of my telemedicine mentoring information just on there for free. I came to John as we discussed this idea with the thoughts that mentoring folks in how to create and run their own telemedicine practices. An independent contractor was a great bridge between burnout and a second career. And the story behind that is about 10 years old, but I've been doing that successfully for a number of years. And I had put up a couple of courses and they went bananas. I couldn't believe how much revenue they generated.

So, when we decided to do this, we started putting that up inside the community for free. And then offering that kind of direct mentorship that people were paying me for just free there because it had become such a demand. And I needed to scale access to myself because there are people who wanted it and couldn't access me because I didn't have the resources to offer to them.

That's just one example. We have little mini mentorships in there about overcoming imposter syndrome and we have great resources about optimizing your LinkedIn and we have a ton of folks that we refer people to for specific needs. And again, it's a great way to gain some comfort with these people that you might want to work with to coach and mentor you into a second career.

And the best part about that, John, is that hiring is so difficult now if you try to go through the front door of these large corporations. You just never know if anybody has even received your resume. And the best part about going through one of these industry coaches is that they know the back doors and they also have some credibility with the folks that do the hiring. So, if they decide to work with you and they bring you in, then you'll get access to opportunities that you would never get access to if you just try to go through the front door.

John: Very cool. One of the other things that has intrigued me and been surprised a little bit is that some of our members and primarily the mentors are trying to collaborate in more substantial ways. The summit, which was wonderful although we haven't done it yet. You're talking about collaboration, pretty much the faculty is many, if not most of our mentors. So that's cool.

And then we are toying with something now that's actually in place. I think maybe you can describe it better than me, but we get this one minute coaching through DocWorking THRIVE, or DocWorking, whichever way you want to look at it. It kind of opens up new ways to collaborate, in my opinion. So, I don't know if you have any other thoughts on that.

Dr. Tom Davis: The challenge for all of us who are career transition professionals is how to scale access to our offerings, to the people who need it. And the folks who are selling this to the healthcare organizations, they have found that getting traction, with that set of customers is pretty difficult.

The health systems talk a good gain, but when push comes to shove, they'd rather retain their resources internally and not purchase outside services like One Minute Coaching or 24/7 crisis counseling or access to career coaching. I believe it's a two reasons. One, it's to make sure that they husband their resources, and two, they want to make sure that nobody actually gets encouraged to leave their job. And I guess that's understandable except doctors are committing suicide at a record rate. So, there is a higher purpose there.

These folks have been talking to us about engaging with our platform and offering their services at scales to individuals instead of selling it as a package to a health system. And DocWorking is one of those. And they have a fantastic product. It's called One Minute Coaching. They have a tremendous stable of coaches that have great wisdom to offer. And so, they offer bite side coaching every week for you to engage. And we're in the process of aligning ourselves with that particular product. So, folks that subscribe, they will get access to that particular resource if they want to reach out and get it.

The point that I think that you and I tried to make when we created this community is if the product is free, then you are the product. In NewScript, we charge a very modest subscription fee compared to how much the thing costs. But it does send the message that you're not the product, we're the product and we're here to serve you.

John: As you were talking about that, it occurs to me I've been interviewing people for five years or more now about their nonclinical careers and working in the hospital environment, which I'm most familiar with, and all the burnout, as you mentioned, suicides that have occurred. And many clinicians, I'm sure it's not just physicians, it's all of them.

I consistently ask the question particularly when I'm talking to coaches or people that produce services for large institutions to prevent or address burnout. And there's many out there and not too many systems that I'm aware of really take it seriously. And even in those that I've asked about, where they've put in place a burnouts program, or let's just call it more of a clinician support program of some sort. It might be under their EAP or something like that.

I've not found one yet that's told me that it's actually been implemented, been successful, and they're really happy with it. It seems like they do a survey, they do some things, sometimes they ignore the survey. That's what they did in my hospital. We did a survey every two or three years of the physicians, and I don't remember us ever putting in place anything substantial or consequential that would actually address the issues that were mentioned in the survey.

So, you can imagine that the physicians and the other clinicians that do these surveys end up not responding, or they don't really take it seriously. It worries me, it bothers me that these systems haven't seen the light because they're going to find themselves unable to get any kind of clinician to work for them long term if they don't address these issues.

Dr. Tom Davis: Indeed. And you see that that is the fruit of the financialization of healthcare. You look at the financialization of society, the folks who have the experience and the vision, they are systematically isolated from those who need to benefit from it. And in healthcare, that is the same process that has been going on. You and I, we should be adjunct professors at our local medical schools, we should be in senior leadership positions in whatever practices that we have. And we should have at least a few clinicians who have identified as role models and come to us and help us for mentorship. And that's the model that you and I developed or grew up under. And that's the model that the people that mentored us developed professionally under. But that model is gone. It is dead.

And so you and I, and all of the other wonderful coaches that see this and feel a need to pay their good fortune forward, are trying to create a space on the internet where that mentorship, that engagement can take place. Unfortunately, it's a new paradigm and even though the less experienced clinicians grew up in the cyber world, it's still something that they're just a little uncomfortable with. And that is always a challenge to try to overcome old patterns of thinking. And if there's one thing that medicine socially is, it's a conglomeration of old methods of thinking, and the folks calling the shots are trying to turn that to their advantage. We're just trying to offer a space where people can come and engage on their own.

And John, it is very, very hard to generate revenue consistently through the internet. You really have to work at it. And of all the people that don't want to spend money, doctors are at the very, very top of the list. And of all the people that they don't want to spend money to, it's other doctors, good lord. And that is a huge barrier. It's a huge social barrier to try to overcome. However, it is a commentary on the social fabric of our profession that it is increasingly being overcome, not just by NewScript, but by the entire constellation of coaches out there.

John: Yeah. I guess we just need to keep reminding people that we're here, there are lots of other people out there, other physicians and clinicians of various sorts who are trying to offer support and help.

I like to remind people that there's a whole world of other things you can do outside of clinical, and you can do clinical in different ways. There should be hope out there for you, but you've got to look around and really dig into it and find out that they don't want us to know about these options. So we're not going to get into those options today, but suffice it to say there's a place where you can make good money, not really treat patients, but serve patients in other ways and be happy and free and have some autonomy and move forward with your career.

Dr. Tom Davis: Healthcare is the most regulated space that there is. And the one of the reasons is that costs for labor, that's you and me, have to be suppressed. Otherwise the system becomes wildly unaffordable. It's wildly unaffordable now, imagine if physicians got paid market rates, it would collapse on day one.

And because of that suppression, the compensation that clinicians can earn outside of the system, both clinically and non-clinically, not only equals what you can earn inside the system, it far exceeds it. Especially if you factor in the liability risk, the suicide risk, and the amount of effort, if you want to measure it in hours or stress, however, that you have to put in to get it.

I worked with a neurosurgeon back in the day. Now this guy's a neurosurgeon, so he's pulling down seven figures doing neurosurgical stuff. He quit. He quit after 10 years because he built his own surgery center, identified how to do that best. And he started consulting with other neurosurgeons about how to build his surgery center. He started about by making way more income and then he suppressed his income by taking a piece of the action in every surgery center that he built. And that's fantastic. That's phenomenal.

It is just one example of even at the highest levels of our profession and recognized compensation, the opportunities out there are huge. And that is simply because wages have been suppressed for decades. And now that particular chicken is coming home to roost. Most people who listen to this probably don't understand how much revenue they can generate for themselves outside the system, and that's because that information is being suppressed.

But you go out and get a corporate job, it's a medical science liaison or even administration, not necessarily hospital administration, but administration say as a medical director as an insurance plan, you can exceed your current income very, very quickly, especially with all of the deferred compensation plans that you have. When I started my journey, one of my mentors told me, when you step outside the system, not only will you be amazed at how much revenue you can earn, you'll be astonished at your quality of life. And I have found that to be absolutely true.

John: That's great to hear because it's true. Yeah, I just can't really say anything more to add to that. I do want to shift gears here though because I heard we had talked about before we got on this call that you're doing some new things or taking some resources you've had in the past and putting them all together in a new way. So I thought why not talk about that since we're into helping as many people as possible.

Dr. Tom Davis: As you all know, one of the principles of NewScript is walking the walk. You and I are not just on, they're flapping our gums telling people that they need to go to nonclinical careers. It's kind of a George Plimpton. If you don't know who that is, look it up. George Plimpton asks and we try out some of the things that we recommend and the ones that we can't try out, we try to get faculty members who have.

For me, I'm a big one on using the internet to generate a side revenue and perhaps having that side revenue develop into a full-time job. And it's very, very challenging to do it. But it's also very straightforward because with the connectivity of the internet, you can reach people that previously you needed to go through a gatekeeper to reach like an editor or theatrical agent or somebody like that. It used to be you need somebody's permission in order to access mass media, but now you got mass media at your fingertips and you have the means of production so that the quality of your production is not a distraction. The only thing that's lacking is your desire to do it and then the lack of information about how to do it.

So, we try to model that. And one of my primary gigs is doing business consulting under value-based care. And I really found myself in quite a bit of demand for that service when I first started out. So, I didn't really need to do a lot of internet marketing, but now I'm wearing a bit of the grind, even though the expertise I have is way more valuable since we're all going to be paid under value-based care by 2030 by decree of CMS.

I've taken all of my different sales funnels for my services and I'm putting them into a one gated community. The idea is to make that gated community be my discovery call. And business people who want to engage you for your advice usually want to talk to you first, and usually, you don't get compensated for that. And so, it can eat up a lot of time. And I used to really love doing that. I found that is something I don't love now.

So I've created this gated community with all sorts of free information in there, sprinkle in a few courses, and then give you a clear shot at engaging me if you want. But if you need to have a discovery call, then you just need to look at all the free stuff there until you're comfortable engaging me as a consultant. And it's probably going to greatly decrease the number of engagements I get, but the people who reach out to me are actually going to pay me and they're going to be the highest quality folks.

I figured I'd give that a shot and see if I can take the power of the internet to the next level. Now, that's kind of an advanced thing because I've been messing with it for 10 years and I've hired an exceptional marketer to help me with that. But for the average person out there, all you have to do is start a TikTok channel, start a YouTube channel, start talking about your expertise, and everybody who's listening to this has their expertise. Develop an audience, set up a website that you drive people to. Offer free stuff there. Offer a Patreon, people who appreciate you, give you a donation. And if you feel like it, you start selling some courses that offer a little bit more in-depth information.

What folks are trying are looking for right now, John, is authenticity. They want a connection and they don't find that in healthcare. In healthcare, people have been commoditized. Healthcare is essentially human trafficking now. The healthcare system. That's essentially what it is. Now that's harsh, but if you look at the fruits of the system, it's 100% true. And I'll defend that to my last breath.

When you're in that situation as a patient, you want to connect with somebody. And the connectivity internet has lowered that barrier to the point where it's completely up to you. If you want to do it, you can, and you don't have to be Chris Pratt or Sir Laurence Olivier or anything like that. Just being an average 60 year old guy. Just offering your expertise free in easily absorbable formats on a consistent basis, you build your audience. And if you get a couple of thousand people that will buy anything that you sell, your true fans, that's a living. That's a living. And there are 5 billion people on the internet. All you need is a couple of thousand. They're out there, you just have to connect with them.

John: No, that's so true. If you're a nurse with a lot of experience, if you're a physician, if you're a speech therapist, it really doesn't matter. You have so much expertise already. There's a whole bunch of people out there that could use what you know. It's just a matter of connecting and this thing is what you're talking about. And then you're investing a little time and effort in making it work.

Dr. Tom Davis: And you can't be afraid of making yourself look like a fool. One of our hints as far as dealing with imposter syndrome, it's just take a second and just scroll through TikTok or YouTube at random. You don't have to worry about looking like a fool. Look at these other people.

And the other issue with the other opportunity to the internet, John, is actually very, very recent. But it is something like one of those rare things that's new under the sun. When you put yourself out there, when you put your real face out there with no filters, nothing like that, your real self out there, up until now, you've been competing with other people who are putting their real selves out there. But going forward, especially in the next 18 months, we're all going to notice that the internet is going to be filled with crap, homogenized crap created by AI that is specifically designed for a purpose, usually promotional, not with a sense of service.

That's what you and I will be competing against. And people will be starting for authenticity.

The internet has always been filled with crap, but it's been authentic crap. Now it's going to be computer-generated crap programmed by somebody that says what combination of words will help us sell more biscuits or whatever. That is a gargantuan opportunity for anybody who wants to put their authentic self out there. And I am very curious to see what happens in the space over the next 24 months. People who offer themselves are going to be rare, and what is rare is valuable, and that's an enormous opportunity for every healthcare professional because we all have something of value that people want to offer.

John: Absolutely. Nice thing about being authentic is you don't have to remember to say a certain line or act a certain way that you did the other day that wasn't authentic. Be your authentic self. It's simpler. It's like don't tell a lie because you're going to have to remember that lie later. Just be who you are, tell the truth and offer things that are going to be of help to other people.

Dr. Tom Davis: If you want to see authentic, go to our TikTok channel, @nonclinicalcareercoach, you'll see authentic.

John: Yeah, that is very useful, entertaining and informative information every time. I'm just starting to dabble in TikTok, so I'm going to get my posts out there soon. You reminded me when you said the AI. Now I'm getting inundated with AI generated emails, and it's like, wow. Since that opened up, I'm just getting all these emails in response to just my website, the info link. I got to figure out a way to filter all that out. But it's not accepted, it's not something we want to see or we want to use when we see that kind of garbage. We just eliminate it and move on.

Dr. Tom Davis: It's made to seem authentic, but something just through the sheer volume for nothing else, you understand that it's just crap. One of the big things in value-based care is using AI to select specific patients and target them for outreach opportunities and whatnot. I see a lot of tech firms trying to sell this, and you and I as doctors know exactly where that's going to lead. The people are going to check out even more than they check out before.

I talked to patients in my focus groups, they actually block their doctor's offices. Now who blocks their doctor's office? It's like, oh my gosh. So, there's an answer to that, but it's just an example of how AI is going to change everything and it's a huge opportunity for those of us who are driven to be authentic.

John: Yeah. And I guess in the future episode like this, maybe we'll talk about some ways to actually work around or use AI if it ever gets to that point where it's actually useful. But for now, just be yourself.

One other thing I'm going to mention and then I think it's going to be time to go. You mentioned about implementing the things that we're talking about. I had a guest on my podcast a couple of times and I think he's currently a mentor, Armon. Is he a mentor for us in NewScript? I believe he is. Anyway, I went through his whole course and in another future episode of the podcast or YouTube or this or whatever, I'll explain how that was and whether I successfully implemented what I learned through that medical legal consulting conference that I'm going to put together.

But, it was really awesome. I'll just say that as a plug. I'm not going to put a link in or anything to that, but there's so much information in NewScript and around what we do that it's just somewhat overwhelming and you just have to pick and choose what's right for you.

All right, Tom. Well, I think that's it for today. I'll remind people that I'm doing the occasional webinar for NewScript, members in particular, although I'll usually invite other people if there's room, to watch for that. We will be reporting on the results of our summit in a future episode of this. Anything else you want to tell us before we let you go, Tom?

Dr. Tom Davis: Just that the only barrier to making change is you.

John: That's it. All right, Tom, thanks a lot and I'll be talking to you real soon. Goodbye our listeners. Thanks for being here.

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