In this podcast episode, John shares his transformative journey from clinical practice to becoming a Chief Medical Officer, offering valuable insights for physicians considering leadership roles in healthcare organizations.

His experience highlights how physicians can leverage their natural leadership qualities developed through medical training while acquiring essential new skills in management and organizational leadership.

The transition from clinical practice to executive roles requires strategic learning through professional organizations, advanced certifications, and continuous education in management principles. Most importantly, John emphasizes that successful physician executives must master three core attributes.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Art of Total Immersion in Healthcare Leadership

John's approach to leadership development centered on complete dedication to learning and growth. Like his earlier experiences in medical training, he found that total immersion was key to mastering healthcare administration. This meant joining professional organizations like the American Association for Physician Leadership, pursuing additional certifications, and continuously expanding his knowledge through various educational opportunities.

This commitment to learning helped him transition from a practicing physician to an effective healthcare executive while maintaining a better work-life balance than clinical practice often allows.

Building the Bridge from Clinical Excellence to Organizational Impact

The transition from clinical practice to leadership requires a fundamental shift in perspective and approach. John emphasizes how physicians must evolve from individual contributors to organizational leaders. This means developing new skills in strategic planning, team management, and organizational development.

The reward comes in the form of broader impact – while clinical practice allows physicians to help individual patients, leadership roles enable us to improve healthcare delivery systems that serve entire communities.

Core Attributes to Be a Better Physician Leader

Three essential qualities are key to succeed as a physician executive:

1. Accountability,
2. Optimism, and
3. Humility

John emphasizes that accountability means following through on commitments and addressing challenges directly. Optimism drives organizational change and inspires teams, while humility ensures leaders remain open to learning and value input from all levels of the organization. These attributes combined with physicians' natural leadership qualities create a foundation for effective healthcare leadership.

As healthcare continues to evolve, the need for physician leaders becomes increasingly important. John's journey demonstrates that while the transition from clinical practice to leadership presents challenges, it also offers remarkable opportunities for professional growth and a broader impact on healthcare delivery.

Summary

Physicians who are interested in transitioning to healthcare leadership roles can access the resources through the American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL) and the American College of Healthcare Executives. These organizations provide essential certifications, educational opportunities, and networking opportunities for developing executive capabilities.

Success in this transition requires the same dedication that drives clinical excellence and a commitment to continuous learning and professional development.

Links for today's episode:

• American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL)
• Medical College of Wisconsin's healthcare executive education programs
• American College of Healthcare Executives
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit (Use Coupon Code 30-OFF)
• The Nonclinical Career Academy

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

If you liked today’s episode, please tell your friends about it and SHARE it on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Right click here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 381

To Be a Better Physician Leader

John: Now I spent many years in management and leadership roles in the hospital setting, which culminated by working as a chief medical officer or CMO. And while moving from part-time physician advisor and medical director to chief medical officer, I took advantage of educational opportunities at the Medical College of Wisconsin, the American College of Healthcare Executives, the American Association for Physician Leadership.

And I'm a certified physician executive and a fellow of the AAPL, and I hold a master's in public health. So today I want to revisit the issue of physician leadership, encourage you to consider moving in that direction, and offer some advice about how to get started. So let's get to it. I think that I'm going to be talking about being a physician leader today, and I'm going to start by sharing my story about total immersion.

What do I mean by that? You know, this is something we do when we're trying to learn something new. So all of us have gone through medical school and residency for the most part. And of course that was pretty traditional type of education. And I found that once I got into practice, everything was going well. I was building my practice. I was working at the hospital to see my patients, nursing homes and in the office. And eventually I started to free up a little bit of my free time and became interested in learning other things that are important, like things like protecting your income, how to invest, maybe trying to find some ways to stay healthy, physically fit. What I've tended to do when I began to get interested in something like that was to just to totally go in a hundred percent and bury myself in information to help me learn about that. So that's what I did after about five years in practice. I realized that I did not have in my little three-man practice, we didn't have an IRA, we didn't have a 401k or anything like that. So my partners and I got together and we started talking about how we could set that up. And then I thought, well, I need to learn about how I'm going to invest because all these concepts were kind of new to me, you know, investing in the stock market, mutual funds, individual stocks, dividends, non-dividends, paying stocks, money market accounts, things like that.

And so I just went all in. I mean, I read everything I could possibly read. I listened to podcasts about the topic. I bought books. I subscribed to certain magazines. And so it was kind of a total immersion into the concept of investing and planning for the future financially. And I even ended up starting investment club with some friends I got so interested in. And in fact, still over 30 years later, I'm still involved in that investment club. Well, as I started dabbling in being a physician advisor and then a medical director, similarly, I didn't really know what I was doing. I mean, basically I had learned a little bit earlier in my life by being the chief in my residency and participating in a bunch of committees at the hospital and becoming the chair of a committee. And then I learned about how meetings worked and how minutes worked and all that kind of thing. But it was a pretty superficial exposure. So I thought, well, I've got to get involved in learning more about physician leadership and management. So that's when I started joining these organizations.

And reading about it, starting to subscribe to different podcasts, newsletters, magazines that told me a little bit about it. That's what I want to talk to you about today. Before getting into that, I would say that I really do promote the idea of getting into hospital management. If you're already in the hospital as a hospitalist or an ER doc or anesthesiologist or a surgeon or any of the other specialties that spend at least 20, 30% of their time or more in the hospital, I think it's a great place to work because you're providing very intense medical care. And in my opinion, we need more physician leaders in these settings. Most hospitals are run by people with an MBA or an MHA. They may have never done anything clinical.

There's some exceptions to that, like nurses who end up being in leadership positions. And they follow a path very similar to many physicians. In other words, they start out clinical and then they become a manager or they become a director. And actually there's a significant number of hospitals that are run by nurses, probably many more run by executive nurses than are run by executive physicians. And so again, I would encourage you to look at this path. The thing I like about it besides that it's intellectually stimulating and really it's something that any physician can do if they're interested is that it's a way to really help more patients. When I was seeing patients, I was dealing mostly with the healthy, worried well people came in with minor problems, really, that probably didn't really need a visit. Yes, you've got a lot of the screenings we're doing and health maintenance, but most things that come in are acute and they're relatively trivial, and then once in a while you see a really sick patient, get them admitted, and nowadays, if you're a family doctor, of course, you probably won't even be going to the hospital. The thing is, when I started getting into management, I found I was helping patients in new ways.

And at the same time, my lifestyle was better. The more I did in the hospital as a medical director and then ultimately as CMO, the less time I spent in the office, the less time I spent on call, and the more work-life balance I had. And it was something also where when you're in residency and early practice, you're challenged quite a bit because you're still learning and taking on new responsibilities, but then it becomes a little bit routine. And so when I started doing more and more in leadership, I really enjoyed learning more about how to manage, you know, learning about HR, learning about leadership and strategic planning and communication styles beyond those as a physician. And so there's a lot to it. And it is quite interesting. Let me talk a little bit about that. Is this right for you? Yeah, I don't think becoming a manager, director, or CMO in a hospital is necessary right for everybody. Because you have to be willing to take on some new skills, learn some new ways of doing things. I think there's some areas in particular that you really should try to strengthen and learn as you decide to do this. But let's think about how we should look at this and let's reflect in review some of the things that we should consider before making this move. So first of all, let's reflect about our motives.

You know, I have to admit that when I started getting into the physician advisory role, that was mainly to just make a little extra money. It was almost like moonlighting, but it was really non-clinical. But even as I became medical director, part of it was that I was really getting a little bit burnt out and I was trying to exchange hours of care as a medical director for hours of work as a primary care physician. So ultimately what that meant was I was getting paid on almost an equal basis for the medical director duties, but it didn't involve any call. And so over time I was cutting my call responsibilities back. And at some point later on, I actually hired my own hospitalist to start taking my in-house call. So if the motive is just because you're burnt out and fed up with medicine, that's probably not a good motive and it won't, you know, you'll end up a year or two later in the same situation, five years later, still burnt out and not happy. But if at least you have an interest in management and interest in learning new things, you have an interest in a specific area of management that might be fun, like when it's quality improvement or, um, CDI, clinical documentation integrity or informatics or, you know, one of the things we really normally get involved with as a medical director, then by all means, think about proceeding.

Reach out to your colleagues. If you've been out for a few years, you're bound to have some colleagues that are doing at least part-time work, and you may have even gone through residency and fellowship with someone who immediately went into a non-clinical role, although possibly related to their specialty.

Reach out and just talk to people, get their feedback and find out what it's like to make this transition, and also what it's like to be in a full-time management or leadership job. Read everything you can about it. Of course, when I say read, that includes online, that includes books. A lot of books written about this, a lot of articles written. When I say read, I also mean maybe listen to some podcasts like this one or others.

Go to websites and try and get a take on that. Then there are some formal places where you can go and you can register, meaning you should register or enroll with some of these professional societies. Of course, the one that I think is the best and probably most appropriate for those thinking about doing leadership roles and advanced management positions is the American Association for Physician Leadership. Now I've been a member of the APL for over 30 years, taking many of their courses. I've really been involved heavily in fact, that was the chair of the CCMM, which is a community that oversees the CPE designation and the requirements and the work that's done to apply for that recognition. So I've been heavily involved with it. I am not promoting it. I'm not paid, you know, but I got myself involved because I believe in what I did. It is always looking for new ways to expand and grow and provide more services to its physician members to become great leaders.

Now, I do believe that physicians are natural leaders and I don't say that they're born leaders because I think a lot of the leadership skills that they develop come as a result of their medical training. There's a lot of characteristics that we have that we're either born with, nurtured while we're young, and then are nurtured further as we go through our training. I'm going to talk a little bit about that in a minute.

These are the kind of, I guess, attributes that I see that physicians have. Obviously, the intellect is there, very focused. Most physicians I know are quite accountable. They've got the ability to handle complexity, so they can think through problems well. Their communication skills are usually pretty darn good and are usually improved while they're going through training. Now, a lot of that is with communicating with small teams and with patients and with patients' families and so forth. So sometimes you've got to learn a different type of communication as you get into leadership, but very good perseverance and patience and keeping on problems, not easily distracted. Decisive is another good attribute that physicians generally have that's encouraged and grown during their training. They don't tend to be wishy-washy or indecisive. So that's good. And a lot of people are prone to that indecisive nature because they're not confident. Commitment, altruism, and a people orientation, now, doesn't mean that we're not sometimes introverts. In fact, I think probably the majority of physicians or at least a little more than 50% are somewhat introverted. So it's not like they feel comfortable in a large group giving a presentation necessarily, although most of us practice that during our training. But we went into medicine because it's a combination of science and also the health professions helping others, that kind of thing.

So it makes for fairly natural leader. A thing is though, physicians do have to evolve. They have to add new skills and new attitudes to really be an effective leader at the level of, an executive in a hospital, which is what I'm really promoting here today. So we need to, if we tend to be a little reactive, because we're in the mix of things, if something happens, we respond immediately, that's fine. But when you're in a business setting, when you're in an organizational setting, a big organization, whether it's a hospital, large pharmaceutical company, health insurance company, anything like that, you really need to be more proactive. So you need to kind of migrate from reactive to proactive when looking at things. When you're managing large groups of people and people in big organizations, you need to be proactive. So that's something you have to develop. You need to stop.

Or I would say add to being a performer or a doer to being a planner. You know, we don't necessarily go into our office seeing patients planning what we're going to do for each patient before they show up. A lot of times we wait till they show up and then they, we assess them and then we make a plan, but to run an organization and have two, three, four, five, 10 people reporting to you, running a budget of 1 million, 5 million, 20 million, 50 million then you need to plan and you need to be proactive. You need to kind of move from tactical to strategic thinking. So this is, again, you know, we're talking about annual goals, maybe a two or three year strategic plan. These are fairly common to do when you get to the VP level or higher in a big organization.

And we need to go from being deciders to delegators. We have to feel comfortable. If you're like, I'll tell you, when I was, I don't know, I'd say, I wouldn't say at my peak, but there were times when I had six or seven directors reporting to me. And my main goal was to help them develop their goals every year and maintain some kind of tool that we could track their performance.

And then encourage them and push them to meet their goals and exceed their goals. But I really wasn't there to tell them how to do their job. I was really there more to keep them honest and to make sure they were pitching in and to also coordinate with other senior leaders to make sure that all of our directors and managers were working together collaboratively.

And working for the benefit of the whole organization, not for just their department. So when you delegate, that means you can't really look over the shoulder and everything they are doing. But you have to feel comfortable with tracking their performance and their progress and meeting their ongoing goals and performing according to your expectations. We have to migrate from being independent, working independently to being more participative. So working on a team, not a team that we're necessarily always leading, we might actually be just the co-members of a team. For example, for the first few years that I was working as chief medical officer, I always thought my team was the directors and myself, the directors that reported to me and myself, area they had the utilization management, the quality, the medical staff office. And then at times I also had always had the pharmacy and then sometimes radiology and lab. And it was more about, like I said, quality and performance. And we were still responsible for budgets, of course. I came to find out later, or I came to realize later, that my real team wasn't all those people reporting to me.

Like I was the coach and they were my team. My actual team were my co-VPs, the people on the senior management team. There were 10 of us, if you include the CEO, usually the CFO, the COO, the CMO, CMIO we had for a while. We had the VPs for HR, VP for lab, VP for maintenance and facility and so on and so forth.

And that was really our team, but we spent a lot of time bringing that team together as a cohesive unit. And where at that point, the way we looked at it was, we are there to make sure that our departments, that level of team are actually working together to achieve the organizational goals, not to just make sure that their particular department looked good or had good numbers. So that was an interesting evolution that I observed. And we're usually practice focused. And in a hospital, if you have several hundred or a thousand physicians, depending on the size of the organization, of course, we're all focused on our own practices, our own groups. And once you move into the executive level of hospital management, then you really have to have this organizational focus. And basically you're trying to get everybody on the bus, you might say, or everybody rowing in the same direction on the boat. And it's a little different than just running a small business like a practice or even a large business is a multi-specialty practice or single specialty practice. Or even if you run your own surgery center, that's even there, you start to get a little different feel than running just to practice. And then you need to really go from, you know, patient accountability, which is important in terms of you're accountable for the healthcare of the patient, which even in a hospital executive position you still are, but it's organizational accountability and it's different. You're no longer a lone wolf. You're working as a unit with others at your level.

And you have to learn to be accountable to one another and to the CEO. So let's focus on three of these aspects in a little more detail. So that accountability part is pretty darn important. And basically one way to define that is that you, you do what you said you would do when you said you would do it. And sometimes we'll add and the way you said you would do it. Now, in some things that you're saying you're going to do, you're gonna get done, you don't really care how it gets done. You know, if you're supervising some director, you say, look, you told me you're gonna do X, you're gonna meet this budget, and by six months from now, you're going to have this project halfway completed, fine. Just make sure you do what you said you would do when you said you would do it.

On occasion, you want to add the way you said you would do it. So sometimes the way you achieve something is important. Obviously, it has to be quite legitimate and honest and straightforward and not underhanded in any way. But as a leader, sometimes you don't want to worry so much about the way things are done. If they have a goal and the outcome is important, and as long as we're being authentic and we're being honest, then, you know, there are multiple ways to achieve the same goal. But again, if you want to quote this, do what you said you would do, when you said you would do it, the way you said you would do it, if you want to be accountable. And this could be to your team or to your boss. And when you don't achieve that, then you need to make amends.

So, the other thing that's really important is if you committed to something, if you promised to do something or just even agreed to some goal, you need to learn to apologize appropriately when it's not achieved. And that's what accountability is. And that means that, and this came up a lot in our senior management teams, we would meet and say, "Hey, you know, two weeks ago, this was what you said you were going to do. And you said it was going to be done by this meeting. So what have you got to show us?" And if one of us didn't have it, it meant that we had to say, "well, you know what I did, I committed to doing that two weeks ago. And I admit that I have not completed that. I don't have a reason or a good excuse was bad planning, timing and so forth on my part." So that's the first step is just admitting your mistake or your failure to comply with your own commitment, explain how you will rectify it. "I will get that done. In fact, I'll have that report that you needed by the end of the day tomorrow", commit to a deadline, which I did there.

That's basically it. Now, when you're being accountable and when you're stating that you did not meet the goal that you said you would meet, didn't complete what you said you would do, we never phrase it like this. Like, "I'm sorry" if, like, let's say that you were going to communicate with somebody and you ended up doing, you know, saying something that was not accurate.

You don't say, "well, I'm sorry if what I said bothered you. I didn't mean to bother you or to insult you." That's not really an apology because you're putting the if sentence in there, we're just putting it on them. Like if they took it the wrong way, you just say," I'm sorry, I offended you and I won't do that again," or in this case, to be accountable.

"Yes, I made a commitment. I did not meet that commitment. I'm sorry about that. And I make a recommit myself to completing this project by the end of the week. I will not fall behind in this project again." So you have to really commit to and not repeating your mistake. So accountability is a big thing. And a lot of physicians, I mean, we're accountable to our patients doing the right things and not doing something we're gonna get sued about or get reported about. That's one level of accountability. But when you're in a team for a large organization, you all have to make your commitments, stick to them and be ready to admit your mistake if you don't and move on. The other thing is it has to do with optimism. I think it's easy to become pessimistic and angry in healthcare.

You can, you know, you get, you feel like you're overwhelmed sometimes you're burnt out. And when you get that way, then you start to lash out, start to act negatively. You start to become resigned and that's not good for a leader. A leader cannot be depressed and resigned and feel like they have no control and they have to maintain a certain level of optimism that they and their team and the organization itself can solve important problems, can move forward successfully, and should not get that resigned feeling like nothing can change and we're not making any progress. Leaders with that attitude really don't last very long at all. So you have to avoid the negativity, defeatism, apathy, resignation, all those things I've mentioned.

You should embrace positivity, be kind of faithful, have faith, be inspired, be easy to encourage and encourage others. You know, always have hope and expectations that things will continue to get better because we're all working together to make things better and more successful and more responsive to our patients and to the community. So optimism is really important. If you can't...

If you can't be accountable and you cannot be optimistic, you really can't be a good leader. Then the other thing is humility in spite of all this. You're learning a lot, you're taking ever increasingly important levels of responsibility, working your way up to the C-suite, maybe even eventually become the COO or the CEO. But you have to have humility because again, you don't do anything by yourself. You should avoid being self-righteous if you'd fallen in that trap in the hospital and the operating room and the delivery room. If you become condescending, a part that goes back to being burned out or overwhelmed, but you have to stop that. You have to maintain some humility.

Continue to always be curious, meaning welcoming other people's opinion. When you're in a leadership role, it's not that you're making all the decisions without input from your peers and from the people that are reporting to you. You should focus on listening more than talking. You know, just because you're the chief medical officer doesn't mean when you're with your directors or with your teams, it's so-called that report up to you, they have the frontline observations. They have the frontline knowledge of what's actually going on day to day. You have to remain curious, you have to listen first. And then if there's a sort of a solution that's self-evident and a decision has to be made about, are we gonna invest money here? Are we gonna share personnel?

Are we going to try and find other ways to meet a goal? Then you might have to make that decision, but you need all the information first and that means being humble. I guess what I want you to just realize is that leading is a skill that builds on what you learned during your medical training, but it involves listening and inviting others to embrace your vision. And you know, you think about when you're a leader, you're always on stage and your patience, dedication, and integrity become a role model that are key to recruiting others to join your organizational journey as a leader. You're trying, like I said earlier, to get everybody on the bus that's going to debut. I mean, it's a metaphor, but it's one that one of my CEOs used all the time. It's like, we're all going to get on this bus and we're going together.

We're all going to hop in the boat and row in the same way, in the same direction. There's no sense us all being in the boat. We're all rowing in a different direction because then we're not going to move. And so really one of the core responsibilities for a leader is to inspire your team and to get them to want to join, not be forced to join.

Bottom line is if you are successful and you get 90, 95% of people to row in the same direction and hop on the bus that you're taking to debut, then if there's five or 10% that can't do it, won't do it for whatever reason, then they should be left behind. That means they should go find a job where they're going to be happier and more productive. So if those are the kinds of things when you're listening what I just talked about sound like fun. Well, then by all means, that's an indication that you should consider strongly to start your leadership journey. You've probably already been on it. If you're a physician and you're probably asked to do things and take on responsibilities where you're not just pitching in as a member of the team, but you're leading part of the team or leading the entire team.

Maybe you're working on temporary committees to solve a problem. Maybe you're chairing a committee that's really important. Or maybe you're on the board of a hospital or a public health organization, hospice, something like that. If you like that and what I've talked about today sounds like a fun, like I said, then go ahead and take off and continue your leadership journey.

I'll be coming back to talk about more issues related to management leadership in coming podcasts in addition to interviews with more that are also doing non-clinical jobs outside of leadership.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

[/fusion_text][/fusion_builder_column][/fusion_builder_row][/fusion_builder_container]

The post To Be a Better Physician Leader appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Interview with Dr. Mark Olsyzk – 356

In today's interview, outstanding CMO Dr. Mark Olszyk provides his advice and that of his co-authors from The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook. 

He discusses the critical skills required for effective medical leadership and practical tips for navigating complex healthcare challenges. And he emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and collaboration among healthcare professionals to be successful.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast. The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Journey to Becoming an Outstanding CMO: Insights and Experiences

John leveraged resources from the American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL), including its Certified Physician Executive (CPE) program, to enhance his leadership skills. That is where he met Dr. Mark Olszyk, a seasoned physician leader with a rich background in military service and medical administration.

Dr. Olszyk, co-author and editor of “The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook,” shares his extensive experience in medical leadership. From his early days in the Navy to his decade-long tenure as a Chief Medical Officer (CMO), he highlights the importance of learning from successes and mistakes. The book serves as a comprehensive guide for aspiring CMOs, offering practical advice and lessons distilled from the experiences of various medical leaders.

The Role of a Chief Medical Officer: Responsibilities and Challenges

Dr. Olszyk outlines the multifaceted role of a Chief Medical Officer, emphasizing the importance of building bridges between various stakeholders in a hospital. He describes the evolution of the CMO role from the Vice President of Medical Affairs, focusing on credentialing, privileging, quality reviews, and regulatory compliance.

A CMO is a liaison between the medical staff, hospital administration, and the board of directors, ensuring effective collaboration. Dr. Olszyk also discusses his journey in medical leadership and the fulfillment he has experienced during his career.

Advice for Aspiring Medical Leaders: Steps to Take and Skills to Develop

Mark offers practical advice and steps to gain relevant experience for those considering a career in medical leadership. He encourages involvement in leadership roles within hospitals and joining professional organizations like the AAPL and the American College of Healthcare Executives (ACHE).

He also emphasizes the value of networking, seeking mentorship from current medical leaders, and continuously developing leadership skills through education and practical experience. By engaging in paid and volunteer leadership opportunities, physicians can significantly influence the future of healthcare while developing new skills, on their journeys to outstanding CMO.

Summary

In this interview, Dr. Mark Olszyk shares his extensive experience as an outstanding CMO and co-author of “The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook.” For those interested in purchasing the book, it is available on Amazon or through the American Association for Physician Leadership (AAPL) website, where volume discounts are also offered.  You can reach Mark directly via LinkedIn.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Mark Olszyk's LinkedIn Page 
• The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook
• AAPL: The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook
• 4 Things the CMO Should Never Say to the CEO – 251
• 6 Important Assignments of a Hospital CMO – 218
• What Makes a Great Health System Chief Medical Officer?
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit (Use Coupon Code 30-OFF)

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 356

The Essential Guidebook to Being An Outstanding CMO

- Interview with Dr. Mark Olszyk

John: During my efforts to improve my skills as a physician leader, I naturally took advantage of the AAPL, the American Association for Physician Leadership, including its CPE program. And it was during the final week of that CPE program that I met today's guest. He's a consummate physician leader, starting with way back when he was in the military. He may still be in the military, I'll ask him about that. But anyway, he's held numerous leadership and executive positions, and he's also the co-author and editor of a new book, well, it came out last year, The Chief Medical Officer's Essential Guidebook. Let's welcome Dr. Mark Olszyk to the show. Good to see you again, Mark.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Good to see you, John. It's been too long, but thanks for having me and inviting me to your podcast. I'm really excited to be here.

John: Excellent. I have brought up the issue of physician leadership, and especially in the hospital setting, many times over the years on the podcast. And as far as I know, there are books written about the job and different aspects. But really, when I saw this book, with excellent collaboration with the AAPL and yourself with all your experience, this is just perfect for those in my audience who are thinking about moving along those lines, and actually a "how to" to get there. I really appreciate you putting this book out there.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Oh, well, thanks. To answer your previous question, I'm not still in the military. I got out in 2003, kind of hard to believe, but I'm a proud Navy veteran, and my son is an Army ROTC. So, get that out of the way.

John: Nice.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Yeah, yeah. The book, I think everybody at some point in their lives, reflecting on their experiences, and their travels and their journey, say, "Yeah, I should write a book about that." And I'm no different. But I've been a CMO, chief medical officer for about 10 and a half years. But I've been in medical leadership since the first year after finishing residency, I went into the US Navy. And the military, unlike almost any other sector, will put you in to leadership positions as soon as possible. And you find a way to get the skills and find the maturity and the leadership is thrust upon you and you have to rise to the occasion. I've always been grateful for that.

But I had gone to conferences at AAPL, others where I met other chief medical officers, and we would share stories. And I thought, boy, it'd be great to write this stuff down and distill this because these are some really valuable lessons, not just the things that we had done correctly, but all of the mistakes that we had made. And wouldn't it be better for other people to learn from our mistakes rather than repeat them themselves.

I guess it came to a head in our system. Physician was made chief medical officer of another hospital. And I just kind of casually passed along here's 10 things to do, like the 10 commandments, but not nearly as inspired, but just 10 things. And about six to eight months later, I guess he lost it. It was that impactful. But he lost it and said, hey, can you send it to me again? I just didn't have it. And I thought, "You know what? If I'm going to write some stuff down, let me make it into something." And it just kind of grew. And I talked to some of my colleagues and contacts. And I said, would you guys be interested in collaborating on a book? Because I think it'll be enormously boring if it's just me telling the stories. But if we have a whole chorus of voices, I think that might really strike a note.

I just had no idea how to publish a book. I just didn't want to do it on my own. I approached AAPL. And Nancy Collins was very gracious. We actually met in a Starbucks in Maryland. And she showed me some of her other publications that came out recently, one of which was a collaborative effort. And it just kind of grew from there.

I reached out to everybody I knew in my life who was a CMO or medical leader. And there was a lot of enthusiasm. I learned a lot in trying to shepherd people together for a collective effort where I was not their boss. They were not getting paid. And there was no way I could really enforce any sort of deadlines or standards. That in itself could be a book, a book about how to write a book. But it was a fun journey. I'm glad it's out there and I've received some excellent feedback.

John: Yeah, when I look through it, of course, most physicians, actually, most clinicians, of course, they like teaching, like helping their peers and so forth. And I think many, if not all, not all of the section writers or physicians, of course, you tapped into other expertise, which I like. There's a lot covered there.

And when I think about the CMO role, it's in my mind is like this iconic what does a CMO do? But everyone does it differently. Everyone does different aspects, more depending on each job. It's unique. But yet, I think you covered everything that I could think of in terms of what questions would I have if I was thinking about being a CMO or I was and I was missing something. So tell me a little bit more about the process. How did you herd all these cats and get this thing done? How long did it take you to do?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: From start to finish, it took about a year. Some of the author contributors returned their submissions in two weeks. Others took about eight months. Some needed multiple revisions, some needed none. I did recruit two co-editors, Aaron Dupree and Rex Hoffman. They helped out a lot.

I learned a lot about copy editing and all of the back office productions and placing it and formatting it. From what had existed only as a series of, I'll say, not too well organized Word documents on my desktop, to see that transform into an actual written book was pretty fascinating and eye-opening. But originally I had an idea for a structure and like all initial ideas, it went away pretty quickly.

And so I just asked people to write about what they felt that they were knowledgeable about or passionate. And the outlines of a puzzle began to come together. And then after about 75% of the submissions were in, at least an outline form, then I could actually target what was missing.

As a frustrated or wannabe classicist, I used the model of the medieval concept of the human being. The first set of chapters, the first section is about the anatomy of the CMO, the basics, the blocking and tackling, metrics and patient experience and all the quotidian day-to-day activities that were going to be the guts and the sinews and the bones.

And then we would move on to the heart, which is all about relationships and how the CMO relates to the chief nursing officer, the chief executive officer, to the board of directors, to departmental chiefs or chairs, and also their perspectives, what they think a CMO should be, or how a CMO should act to be successful in their eyes.

And then we moved on to the brain, the strategic thinking, extra hospital relationships, like how do you deal with third-party rating agencies and auditors and joint commission and dealing with the media, especially when the memories refresh from the pandemic, what if you're asked to appear on TV, on live TV, on the radio and newspaper articles how do you prepare for that?

And then finally, the soul or the spirit, which would be the transformational values and ethics and diversity, inclusion, aspirational type things. It was kind of a journey from the very basic things that a CMO would do day-to-day to the more long-range aspirational goals or values. And I think the way it's written, you can skip around. You can say, gee, I want to learn more about how to prepare for a media interview or how to relate to the board of directors. And you can go right to that section. So it doesn't have to be read in order. It can be used as a reference or it could be read as a story in itself.

John: I think it's pretty comprehensive. And probably in anyone who serves as CMO may not even be exposed to all the things that are covered. There's so much and again, because each role is slightly different. So it's awesome. One of the things I like to do when I'm bringing on an editor and author is pick their brain. So I have an ulterior motive for having you here other than just to talk about the book, although again, it's fairly comprehensive.

But just to keep what our audience's appetite here for this job because some are a little reluctant maybe they have a negative feeling about working in hospitals being abused by somebody or another, but there are good systems out there. And the other thing is being the CMO, you can make a big difference in how that organization is run. Tell me what you would say, if you were to boil it down, what are the most common areas that a chief medical officer is sort of responsible for? Maybe another way to look at it is like who reports to them, because it kind of makes me think about, okay, well, I do this because this person reports me. So however you want to answer that question in terms of the core roles of a CMO.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: I think the CMO role evolved from what was previously and still exists, usually in a hyphenated title, Vice President of Medical Affairs. That being the mechanics and the support staff for the organized medical staff. And every hospital per joint commission guidelines and through history, has had an independent organized medical staff who are largely responsible to establish their own standards for credentialing and privileging. And that was made ever more important back in the 1960s, when there were landmark cases, lawsuits, where patients began to sue hospitals. And the hospital said, hey, we have to really have some quality standards, and we're going to ask the medical staff, almost as a guild to police itself. But the medical staff have full-time jobs taking care of patients, and it's hard for them to keep the files and the minutes and the records and organize the meetings and stay abreast of all of the regulatory changes.

There is an Office of Medical Affairs in every hospital. And the Vice President of Medical Affairs, now the CMO, is largely responsible for ensuring the quality of the medical staff, making sure the medical staff leaders understand what they're supposed to do, making sure that they do it. And it's challenging in that the medical staff can be employees of the hospital or healthcare system. They can be contractors or vendors, or they can be completely independent. And when I started out at this hospital, it was about one-third of each.

To get all those different folks with their different interests aligned in a common effort proved to be a challenge, but one I thought was very fun because I had to look at their world through their eyes and also convince them that what we were doing was necessary and important and create a team not of rivals or competitors, but of people who didn't necessarily all fall into the same silo.

We're largely responsible for the credentialing, privileging, presenting those applications to the medical executive committee and to the governing body, which is usually the board of directors, making sure everyone is completing their FPPEs, their OPPEs, the ongoing professional performance assessments, making sure they're up to standards with joint commission, reviewing and knowing the bylaws. I probably know the bylaws better than anybody in the hospital. We've rewritten them 10 times since I've been here. Quality review, and then making sure that the medical staff were involved in all of the various intra-hospital, extra-hospital committees radiation safety, prescribing, that sort of thing.

What I'd like to say is that the chief medical officer is a bridge builder between the hospital administration and the medical staff, but also between the medical staff and the board of directors, between the hospital and the community. Sometimes the CMO, I found myself as the spokesperson during the pandemic especially. It was on local radio, on TV trying to break down in very understandable terms what was happening, but also bring back to the hospital and tell them, hey, this is what the community is concerned about. Here are the questions they have.

We have to be mindful of that, responsible for that. Also within the hospital, being a bridge builder between the various departments translating the needs of the hospitalist team to nursing or between medicine and surgery and sometimes refereeing, sometimes being just the host getting folks together.

But I always come back to bridge building. And again, if you look through history, through cinema, through literature, bridges always figure prominently in history, battles of the Milvian Bridge with Constantine changing the nature of the Roman Empire, Stamford Bridge, which ended the Viking Age in England. All these great events happen on bridges. Even if you've seen Saving Private Ryan, which came out, in 1998. The last ultimate scene, Tom Hanks losing his life is actually on a bridge. And if you're a fan of The Lord of the Rings, that's where Gandalf the Grey transforms into Gandalf the White. And again, Jimmy Stewart, It's a Wonderful Life. The transformational scenes occur on a bridge.

I was a scoutmaster. When the Cub Scouts become Boy Scouts, they cross over this bridge and they don't really pay much attention to it. But I gave a little speech to the parents, like, look, this is a special time, you're going from one part of your life to another. And this is punctuated by going over a bridge. Bridges represent liminal spaces, liminal time, when you're not here, or there. Bridges are a great metaphor, because they're very narrow. And they're very risky, because if you fall off one way or another, if you don't keep a straight path, if you don't keep your eyes on the goal, tragedy can ensue. And sometimes it's foggy, sometimes it's slippery. So, it takes somebody who's been back and forth a few times, who's surefooted, who is focused to to cross that bridge.

And bringing together all those communities, translating their needs and their goals and their concerns from one party to another, can be very risky. If you don't do it correctly, it can really backfire. That's why I consider the role as bridge builder. The Pope himself is the official title is Pontifex Maximus. The greatest bridge builder. I don't think the CMO is the Maximus, but I think it's a very important bridge builder, we can all build bridges. And hopefully, the CMO can exemplify that.

John: The ironic thing is that if you go back the last 20-30 years, for a while there, there weren't that many physicians in leadership positions, at least on the community hospital side you always had academic hierarchies. But I think in the 50s, up to half of hospitals might have been owned by physicians, and then over time, it just everything got split. And so I think what you just said, it's important that physicians be in those roles. So I'm glad that there are more physicians and when I started as VPMA, our hospital had never had a VPMA or a CMO. So many hospitals now do.

Building on that, tell me in your opinion, the pros and cons of being a CMO. Like I say, I have many people that are a little reluctant to make that commitment. But to me, it was a natural thing to pursue. So, what are your feelings and some of the challenges and also just what you love about it?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Yeah, for me,this can sound a little pollyannish or saccharine, but for me, there's no downside. I guess it just fits my personality. When I was a brand new attending physician, I would see these larger forces at work in a hospital, budget, staffing challenges. And I'm like, man, I just want to be able to fix that I want to get involved in that. So it was kind of a natural course. I got my MBA so I could talk the talk and understand some of the discussions a little bit better, and then got more and more involved.

And it's just hard for me to resist trying to represent my fellow medical staff members, physicians, but pretty much trying to weigh in. If we're planning an expansion to the hospital or adding a new service line, or how do we go about on some major quality initiative, I really want to have a seat at the table and have a voice. So the best way to do that is to get into the C-suite, you get into medical leadership, develop those relationships and connections.

What I love most about the job is probably as a CMO, I'm an ambassador, plenty potentiary, I can go to any clinical department, I can go right down to pathology right now, talk to my chief pathologist. And he's got a two sided microscope, and he'll show me some slides which look like pink and purple squares. And he'll say, what is this, and I'll get it wrong every single time. Then we talk about his family. I get to know him as a person. And that builds a bond of trust, it furthers our relationship. I can walk out of there and I can go up to radiology and look at some of the images with the radiologists. And then I can walk in to the surgical suite and get gowned up and just see what the surgeons are going through, see what their day is like. Yeah, I can do the same thing for the hospitalists, for pediatrics.

I actually like being a medical student in my third and fourth years because you have a different rotation every month. It was always fresh, it was always interesting. And that's why I went into emergency medicine where you're expected to be somewhat proficient in almost anything because you don't know what's going to walk through the door. So, you have to know about pediatric medication doses, you have to know how to treat people struck by lightning or bitten by rattlesnakes or CHF in a hundred-year-old.

So, you have to know everything you have to know enough about every specialty. And then you wind up calling every specialty, sometimes in the middle of the night, but often during the course of your shift, either for follow-up or for intervention. And so, you have to learn how to speak their languages. And I just never really wanted to give that up. I didn't want to find myself just in one specialty and not continuing to learn and stay abreast of all the others.

So, I think that's the most fascinating aspect of being a CMO is, I'm pretty much given a hall pass to go wherever I want in the hospital and no one questions that. In fact, they kind of expect that. And that carries over. I get to go to the board meetings, to the finance meetings.

I can drop in on the chief nursing officer, chief quality officer. So for a person who's emergency medicine docs tend to be a little bit restless and always looking for some new stimulus, that was just a perfect job for me. So, that's my favorite aspect and one I would not ever want to give up.

John: Excellent. Now, it's interesting. We all have our own particular things that we like. I loved interacting with the board. I was on the every board meeting. I had an official presentation and I actually love spending an hour or two preparing that. I like being alone in my office and doing things to prepare for that. Whereas other people are like I want to be out there in the public. There's so many different things that one can do.

So, if there's someone in the audience who's either thinking about, well, would I like this or should I do this? Or I'm about 50% sure that I want to do this. What advice would you have for that person early in the thought process of pursuing a leadership position, let's say, rather than and it may be eventually CMO?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Yeah, I'll approach that a little bit obliquely. So, I've given a number of leadership talks over the years and folks are always asking, well, how do I get experience being a leader? I'm like, there's no end of opportunities. Having been in the Boy Scouts, I have three sons, and they're all Eagle Scouts now. But people are always looking for leaders. And it might not be the thing you want to do forever.

But whether it's your church or civic group, the schools, they're always looking for someone to step up. And I said, boy, if you can be a Scout leader, and hold the attention of 60, 10 and 11 year olds for 90 minutes, you can do anything. First of all, brush up your leadership skills wherever you can find the opportunity doesn't have to be in the hospital.

Secondly, the hospitals are always looking for medical leaders. I've seen a ocean sea change in the last 10 years. It used to be that our medical staff meetings, our quarterly medical staff meetings, were raucous affairs, we would have 60 or 70 people there.

As our models have become more contracted or employed physicians, I guess they don't have the same feeling of being community stakeholders as when it was mostly independent physicians in the community who had been there for decades. Now the days are long. And I think after a 12 hour shift, the hospitalists want to go home. And there's also the opportunity to Zoom into a meeting. So we don't see as many people attend in person. And it's getting harder and harder to get people to volunteer to spend an hour or two, even if it's once a month, in a peer review committee, because it does take some commitment to read over the cases and then show up for the committee. And we don't stipend or remunerate anyone except for the chair or the chief.

So it's volunteer work. We're always hungry for that. I'm sure every hospital has opportunities. If you want to get involved in peer review or bylaws or credentialing, or on the pharmacy and therapeutics committee, there's definitely opportunities there. Or the foundation or fundraising, or there's lots of opportunities.

And then you begin to network. I guess the next opportunity would be just to ask your chief medical officer. You could probably shadow him or her for the day. We all like to talk about ourselves. I'm doing it right now. If someone came to my office and said, hey, I'm interested in one day being a CMO or an assistant or vice, what's the path? And it depends on the person, on their personality, what they would like to do. Everyone does it differently. Every hospital has a different set of requirements or needs. So it's dependent, but I would be very willing to talk to them. I think anybody would.

Next you could buy the book and look through that. A little selfish promotion, or you could join one of the organizations, AAPL, ACHE. States have their own chapters. Every specialty has its own chapter as well. I think there's lots and lots of opportunities. You can write articles. Journals are always looking for articles. So there's a lot of ways to just get more involved. I don't think anybody in a medical leadership position would be reluctant or hesitant just to make the time for someone who expressed an interest and wanted to learn more.

John: The other thing I found useful, I don't know if it's still the same, but talking to the CEO, hey, what's your perspective on physician leaders and what should I do if I want to get up and be part of the senior executive team? So there's tons of opportunities.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Absolutely.

John: But we are going to run out of time. So let's talk about the book again. Let's start with what do you think is the best way to get the book? Should we go to the AAPL? Should we go to Amazon? Are there other ways of finding the book?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Either one of those is fantastic. If you go through AAPL and you want to order a lot, there are volume discounts or you can go to Amazon, it's easy. You can type in chief medical officer or even my last name, which is not too common, Olszyk book, and it'll pop up. You'll see a couple of Amazon reviews. Unfortunately, some were written by my children. Ignore those. And if your listeners or podcast watchers do get a copy, please do leave a review. It's important. But yeah, either way, you go through AAPL. I think there are some other platforms out there, but those are probably the two most common and easiest to go through.

John: That makes sense. What if they have a question for you? Can they reach out to you?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: They can reach out to me. Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, as you know so you can direct message me. People have done that and I've responded quickly.

John: Okay, good. Excellent. It's good sometimes just really to talk to the editor or author. Of course, you wrote several of the sections of the book in addition to being the chief editor and you said you had some help with that. But okay, well, any last bit of advice before I do let you go in terms of the future of medicine and physician leadership therein? Any other words of wisdom before I release you from this torture?

Dr. Mark Olszyk: No, it wasn't torture at all. I really enjoyed it. It's good seeing you again. And again, thank you for the opportunity. Clearly, like everything else, medicine is going to change more in the next 10 years than it has in the last two generations. So if you want to be part of that change, get into a leadership position, let your voice be heard. I think a pessimist is someone who takes no joy in being proven right. And an optimist is someone who thinks the future is yet uncertain. So if you want to help craft the future, get involved.

John: That's awesome advice again. And I think physicians do resonate with that for the most part. I want to thank you again for being my guest. I might have to have you come back and dig into one of these topics that's in the book, maybe in more detail at some point, but it's been great talking to you again. We appreciate you sharing your expertise with us today.

Dr. Mark Olszyk: Cool. Thanks, John.

John: You're welcome.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so does not affect the price you are charged. I only promote high-quality products and services that I believe will be useful to you. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post The Essential Guidebook to Being An Outstanding CMO appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today's interview, Dr. Peter Angood explains why the best way to empower physician leaders is to join the American Association for Physician Leadership.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

American Association for Physician Leadership's Benefits

The 50-year-old AAPL was founded to empower physician leaders and managers. The evolution of healthcare has evolved and grown increasingly complex. And it is imperative that physicians assume leadership roles in all aspects of healthcare.

The range of services offered by the AAPL is quite impressive:

1. Strong and in-depth information sources (journals, newsletters, and archives);
2. Webinars, Podcast Series, and 85+ educational courses;
3. The Certified Physician Executive Credential; and,
4. Access to advanced business degrees with 5 Universities and 7 Master's Degree specializations.

The benefits of membership are supported by dedicated employees and an excellent technical platform. And the organization provides 350 to 400 educational programs each year.

Importance of Certified Physician Executive

The CPE provides certified physicians with practical insights and a strong healthcare network. Acquiring the designation also requires at least a full year of meaningful experience in leadership and management work. Recruiters now recognize the value of the CPE and often list it as a desired credential in job candidates.

…some of the search firm consultants out there, if they're honest with you, they'll tell you [they] would rather have a candidate with a CPE than a candidate with a master's program.

Summary

Joining the AAPL will help surround you with other physicians already working in management and executive leadership roles. By networking with other members, you will find mentors and coaches to help you follow your leadership path.

By attending live or online courses, you will develop your business and management skills, while demonstrating your commitment to leadership to practice partners and current and potential employers.

If you pursue the CPE and or fellowship, oyo will distinguish yourself as a recognized physician leader.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• American Association for Physician Leadership
  • CPE Program
  • Masters Programs
  • Fall Institute
  • Physician-Mapped Leadership Assessment & Development Tool.
• How a Great Physician Executive Combines QI Expertise with Strategic and Operational Skills – 198
• Are You Ready to Become a Certified Physician Executive? – 219
• 5 Steps I Took to Be a Hospital Executive – 175
• Advice for an Emerging Physician Leader – 032
• Dr. Peter Angood's email address: pangood@physicianleaders.org
• NewScr!pt

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 264

What Is the Best Way to Empower Physician Leaders?

- Interview with Dr. Peter Angood

John: I've spoken about the AAPL many times on the podcast over the past five years mainly because it was a big part of my career transition. I was working as a physician advisor and a little bit of medical directorships and joined the AAPL. And eventually it really helped me to pursue my job as a chief medical officer for a hospital. I thought I would devote an entire episode to this topic today, the American Association for Physician Leadership. And who better to have on as a guest than the president and CEO of the organization, Dr. Peter Angood. So hello, Peter, it's nice to have you on the podcast.

Dr. Peter Angood: Hey John, thank you so much. And I very much appreciate the opportunity and I look forward to our conversation.

John: This should be fun. We're going to give it about 30 minutes or so. There's so much. The organization is really very complex and has a lot of offerings, but before we get into the details of the AAPL, how about just a thumbnail sketch of your background and how did you end up there at the organization?

Dr. Peter Angood: Oh gosh, thank you for the opportunity. I'm a surgeon by background. I spent a better part of 25 years in the academic side doing trauma surgery, surgical critical care. And both of those are multidisciplinary and very systems oriented. So, as I got into mid-career, I found myself thinking more and more about how to create larger scale systems change as opposed to patient-by-patient hospital by hospital.

I was very fortunate as I made that shift, I became the first chief patient safety officer at the joint commission. And that was just one of those career opportunities that really opened my eyes to a lot of the intricacies of our industry and how complex healthcare is actually. I looked after all of the safety initiatives at the joint commission and we did a lot also internationally as well as a bunch of work with the world health organization. Again, that national international exposure was wonderful.

I did that for a number of years and then shifted over to the national quality forum and looked after their safety initiatives and NQFs are all about measurement and how do we get better measurement tactics inside of healthcare. I spent a very brief bit of time with GE Healthcare looking after their patient safety organization.

So, a little insight to the for-profit side of life, but those experiences, John, made me really appreciate that it's all fun and fine to be doing policy development and deployment and all that sort of stuff. But those organizations often didn't have enough physician insight as to really how to deliver care. Take GE for example, a multi-billion-dollar international organization and their true appreciation of how healthcare is delivered from a physician perspective, if you will, was absent.

After those experiences and my ongoing desire for trying to create larger change, I was looking for an opportunity to work in that gap zone, if you will, where I'm still involved and aware of what's going on at that policy level, but also strongly connected to the front line. And I was very fortunate to be chosen as the successor CEO. AAPL at the time was the American College of Physician Executives. The organization is nearly 50 years old now, and I've been here about 10 years and it's been just a wonderful journey in the organization. Truly does sit right in that gap so it influences the policy side, but also very strongly tied to the frontline.

John: Yeah. It's grown, it's morphed over the years. And so, we're glad to have you there. It's been awesome since you've been there these last 10 or so years.

Dr. Peter Angood: Out there. Yeah.

John: Yes. Why don't you give us in a nutshell what the AAPL is? If someone is listening that never heard of it or maybe has heard of it, but has really not looked into it. What is it? What does it do? How does it help physicians with their career advancement?

Dr. Peter Angood: Sure. Well, as I mentioned, it's nearly 50 years old as an organization and the originating CEO, Roger Schenke was a clear innovator in his own right back in the day. And he ran the place for 35, 37 years. And almost I think created the whole concept of physician executives, physician leaders.

While he was running the ship, wound up with a strong constituency of physician leaders who mostly were mid-career, mostly looking at administrative roles in hospitals. And the pinnacle was you get to be a CMO. And yet healthcare's continued to evolve, as you said, in the opening, healthcare's very complex as an organization and so we've become more complex. And as we've been transforming the organization from Roger's beginnings, we really took a different philosophy and that is our society as a whole really continues to look at physicians as leaders.

And the medical profession is still by and large, strongly trusted, and the medical profession is a lead profession. I've taken the philosophy at some level, all physicians are leaders and how do we help physicians embrace that? It's like a responsibility, but it's also a privilege. And so, we're really all about that leadership development, but also professional development along the entire trajectory of a career.

We've expanded and diversified the variety of things that this organization offers. So, we've got very strong and deep information resources. We run a couple of journals, a number of newsletters. We've got a great archive. We've got webinars. We have our own podcast series, had some great guests on that, but then as well, we've obviously continued to expand our educational offerings. We have 85 plus different courses. We have our certified physician executive credential, which is an industry recognized credential. And then you can continue on to become a fellow of the organization. And that's not an automatic, you got to earn the fellowship, all those sorts of things.

And then as well, we have partnerships with five universities and offer seven different master's degrees in there. We've got a large community as you might well expect, and we've got a terrific technical platform to support all of this, the information resources, the education, the networking, the community.

And what a lot of people don't appreciate is that we also do a lot of institutional organizational work. As those of us who are physicians know there's a long-spotted history of the medical staff versus the general administrative staff of hospitals. And they don't always get along. But with the employment trends in about a half of physicians are now employed, many of them by hospitals and health systems, what we're finding is that those institutions are looking for ways to better integrate and engage and to get physicians into leadership roles. And the traditional HR offices are not necessarily all that good at that.

And so, we are working with a good number of institutions. We probably put on 350 - 400 programs a year with different types of organizations to help them with not only the physician leadership pieces, but how to better manage with their medical staff and that whole interface as well. And that's been just wonderful.

And then, yeah, there are a couple of pieces within the international arena. There are not that many countries that have similar organizations such as ours. There are maybe 12 or 14, and they all tend to view us as that best organization, sort of best of breed type of thing into that. And we were just doing some analytics on some of our website stats and purchasing stats. And could you believe this, John? There were 135 countries represented who had been poking around on our website and trying to sort things out. Physician leadership is strong, we're strong and it's just a privilege to be in that role where people want to learn more about it. It's a new era for physician leadership. It really is.

John: Yeah. Things are always evolving. And yeah, I think I've definitely spoken with physicians from other countries and they're looking for assistance in thinking about what direction their career should go and how to get more exposure to leadership and management principles and working together with teams and so forth.

Now, the last thing you mentioned in that whole long litany was working with these organizations. Now I'm kind of thinking some of that with the medical staff is like dealing with let's say burnout and resilience. Does that get into that? Because that seems to be something that's in big demand.

Dr. Peter Angood: Oh yeah. And all those of us that have been in this profession, we all know burnout was happening before the pandemic. The pandemic has brought it forward. The stats are horrible. And yet the way I view it, physicians are resilient as a breed. We got these incredibly long education tracks and then that whole startup of your practice. And so, to walk around telling physicians to be more resilient is kind of a lost cause in my mind.

John: You are talking my language there. We are already resilient.

Dr. Peter Angood: We are.

John: To deal with these other issues.

Dr. Peter Angood: And that's the point, John. It's those other issues, the systems and processes that create frustration that then lead down to the anxieties and the stressors and take this job and shove it kind of attitude that shows up sometimes. And our approach is really kind of in a few different ways. One is clearly there are some individuals who are truly burnt out and they need some assistance and they have to be helped and it's unfortunate, but that's just a reality.

John: True.

Dr. Peter Angood: But we also have to help organizations appreciate and understand that improving their systems and processes will go a long way to improving workforce wellness. And then the third piece therefore then is how to help the physicians in other healthcare professionals to understand better that systems change takes time. Don't just sit and complain about it, but look for ways to engage, help to create more change in the systems and processes. And that will help with sort of an improved awareness of why you're feeling frustrated. And it gives you a longer-range view on things.Because of the respect that the physicians get in organizations inherently and the medical profession as a whole, if we have a strong responsibility to engage in trying to help all of the organizations, whether it's our private practice, our hospital, our post-acute care systems, help them all because folks tend to listen to physicians. So, it's a wonderful opportunity to help abate the burnout by taking that broader based approach.

John: That kind of ties in with something we were talking about before we went live or went on the recording. And that is how the AAPL, although it's an organization for physicians run by physicians, you told me that we were kind of getting involved with other nonphysician components of the system.

Dr. Peter Angood: Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up, John. For a number of years now, multi-professional team-based care has been out there. And a lot of it started in ICUs and emergency departments, transplant programs, all those sorts of things. And so, it's natural that leadership begins to become more interprofessional as well. And as many of your listeners will recognize there's dyad models and triad models. Some of them work, some of them don't. All those sorts of things.

But what we're recognizing in our institutional programs is that as much as 20% - 25% of the participants are actually nonphysicians and organizations are looking more and more for physicians to be the CEO of places. And in that type of setting, obviously then that interprofessional leadership is critical. For those organizations that are more progressive, they're very much encouraging interprofessional leadership. And so, physicians are like "Hey, we're trained and we like being the boss of the team." That's a cool thing, but that's shifting and you can be a strong contributor of a team without having to be the leader of the team.

John: Yeah. That's something that I was not aware of. The extent to which the AAPL was getting involved in that component. So that's awesome. I do want to go back to something you mentioned briefly earlier and you were talking about the different programs and that's the CPE, because I get a lot of listeners who ask about, "Should I get an MBA? Should I get a CPE?" And then I kind of explain what that means. But why don't you give us your take on that? What is the CPE? Who would benefit from it and maybe even how that ties into the MBA and similar business degrees?

Dr. Peter Angood: Yeah. Let's state the other obvious upfront though first, and that is unfortunately medical schools and residency training programs still pretty much do not offer any leadership education or management training. It's gradually shifting a little bit, but that's still going to take a good number of years before that's more common within the undergrad graduate and postgrad areas.

In many ways then AAPL functions as this bridge organization. And as we've said, both of us, healthcare's a complex industry. There are still phenomena occurring. You seem to be a good person, patients like you, your results are pretty good. Your peers seem to like you, congratulations. You're the new CMO here. And you have no background experience. You're holding this high responsibility, high stakes job. How the heck am I going to do this?

So the reality is in this day and age, is that for those individuals who are wanting to help create more change, want to get engaged creating change, you pretty much need some further education and certainly more experiences, whether it's committee work, project work, et cetera. You got to figure out this new arena of leadership and management and how best to fit in there. And again, as we said a few minutes ago, you don't just get to go in and do the command-and-control thing that we've trained to do. So, that takes a new skillset. And as I said at the beginning, it's been 15 years since I've been in the operating room as a trauma surgeon, but I'm still unlearning all that behavior as a trauma surgeon.

John: Yeah, it's different.

Dr. Peter Angood: It is different. I go through all of that to answer your question finally. With the need for some added education, you can do some fundamental stuff and you can do a variety of courses, but we've recognized and for 20 plus years have had this certified physician executive credential. And that is now about 170 hours of coursework. Majority of it is sort of prescribed and there's about 20% of it is elective time.

And then at the end of that 170 hours, there's a three-, three- and half-day capstone weekend, which uniformly is transformative for the people that come in and participate. And the way we view the CPE is different than a master's program and it's very complimentary. And we have had several individuals who've got master's degrees come through the CPE program, do the capstone event and they'll off say, "Darn, I wish I knew about this CPE program before my master's because it's so much more practical, so much more real and it provides me the better tools in which to really do my job." Master's degree programs are great and that's why we offer some. But often as we all know, they're more theoretical, not necessarily healthcare based. And they'll give you a good construct of some of the higher learnings needed to manage and lead, but they don't give you that practical insights. And they don't necessarily give you a strong healthcare network either, which is the benefit of the CPE.

So, you need something, the higher performing organizations that are looking to recruit physicians into leadership roles are often looking for advanced degrees of some sort. And I would love to say that the CPE trumps everything else. No, it's complimentary to those master's degrees. And I can't think of an individual who's taken it that's been disappointed.

John: Not everyone actually completes it when they start it because it is rigorous and it does require some demonstrated performance at the end in terms of what the goals of the program are. Correct?

Dr. Peter Angood: Correct. Yes, absolutely.

John: And by the way, I've mentioned this before in the podcast, I do see that the CPE is sometimes mentioned in job postings for physician executives which is very interesting. And it's been several years that that's been true. So, it really shows that it's a separate complimentary demonstration of one's expertise and experience because like you said, MBA is like book learning. I mean, unless you've actually done it. And I think the CPE also requires at least a year's experience doing some kind of leadership and management work. So, it really shows to those recruiters that there's a different level of ability and expertise there.

Dr. Peter Angood: Yeah, you're absolutely right. That by the time you get to capstone, you've got a well reformulated leadership philosophy, you'll have had to do a project and you will have had to have some experience as you describe. And a dirty little secret, some of the search firm consultants out there, if they're honest with you, they'll tell you I would rather have a candidate with a CPE than a candidate with a master's program.

John: I want to mention before we get to the very end actually the website for the AAPL, which is physicianleaders.org, correct?

Dr. Peter Angood: Correct. Yes. And fresh news. By the time you put this podcast out, I think our new fresh-looking website will be up too. So, I'd encourage folks to have a look.

John: We'll have to all go and take a look at that. Excellent. All right. Let's see. I want you to tease something out a little bit, because you said that CPE is complimentary. A lot of my listeners will ask me this question. "I want your advice. And it's probably difficult to give, but should I get an MBA? I'm unhappy in what I'm doing now. I'm doing some medicine, I'm thinking of moving into some kind of management position. Should I go get an MBA?"

Dr. Peter Angood: Yeah. We often tease. You give a physician a textbook on a weekend and by Monday he'll come back and he's an expert or she's an expert on whatever the topic was. So part of our reflex is to want to learn more.

John: Right.

Dr. Peter Angood: I think there's a deeper set of issues underneath that question. And it gets back to in part we're not exposed to leadership and management through our training, we are idealistic and altruistic by nature. And so, we're looking to create larger scale changes beyond our practice. Not everybody, there's a lot of docs out there perfectly happy seeing their patient volume every day and all that stuff and I commend that. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that.

But even if you're running a practice, you're a leader. The staff are looking to you, the patients are looking to you, your consultants are looking to you, et cetera, et cetera. And so, the onus is on us to sort of own the need to sort of improve our leadership and management as best as we can. And I think if we recognize that then as individuals, or even as a group practice, it's worthwhile getting everyone exposed at least some introductory elements of management, leadership, et cetera.

Organizations, especially the higher performing organizations, more and more are expecting all of their clinical leaders, whether it's a physician and nurse, et cetera, to have some type of added credentialing or education. And I've been told by some of our CPE folks who are strong believers in the CPE, but they're in recruiting type jobs in their delivery system. Their delivery system is like "Hey, you got to recruit the docs with a master's or some other added credential." And so, there's an industry expectation that's evolving.

Does that mean you got to have an itch to create change and go into leadership? You don't have to get a master. You don't have to get a CPE, but just know that the industry oftentimes is looking for something. So, you have to be able to explain your choices. And for time pressures, monetary pressures, family pressures, there's a lot of people who can't afford to do a master's or a CPE, but recognize you have to be able to explain that as you go.

John: Yeah. And there's no way around it, I guess. It's kind of a chicken and egg, but I would say that too, if you join the AAPL and start taking some courses, that demonstrates your commitment and that kind of ties in with the CPE later. What I was advised is if you can get some level of management or leadership job and then get that company to pay for the rest of your education at getting the MBA and or the CPE at the same time, that might be a way to go.

Dr. Peter Angood: Yeah. And what we're seeing more and more is the institutional are sponsoring those kinds of programs. And a little bit of a shameless plug but we've got our fundamentals cluster of courses. You don't have to do the CPE. And we've also got a series of what we call the academies, which are shorter segment focus types of offerings. So, there's the CMO academy. There's the quality academy, there's the safety academy, there's the finance academy. And those types of things can be shown as credentials. And again, to your institution, you're showing commitment to want to do more with leadership and management.

John: There's so many options at the association that didn't exist when I joined 28 years ago. It's great. It's a fantastic organization. So, let's see, if people have questions or are curious, number one, I know you're on LinkedIn, of course. So, if people just want to learn more about you and your background and so forth, again, I'm going to let you give us the website for the AAPL one more time.

Dr. Peter Angood: Sure, sure. It's www.physicianleaders.org. And if your listeners want to reach out to me either through LinkedIn, or you can catch me through my email address, which is pangood@physicianleaders.org. Also, if you're interested, we have a bunch of advisors that can help you sort of guide yourself in terms of where you want to go. And hey, we got a whole bunch of psychometric assessment tools out there as well. You can get a better sense of who you are and what you are. And our technical platform will really help guide you in many, many ways with recommendation engines.

John: The list of services keeps growing as we just spend another minute. So that was a question I was going to have before we close. A lot of physicians asked me about coaching and you said you have advisors at the organization. So how does that work exactly? Is that free if you're a member? Are there paid coaches?

Dr. Peter Angood: There's a spectrum of stuff there, John. The advisors I just mentioned are more staff who will help you understand AAPL better and how to navigate it. But we also offer a lot of professional development services and I neglected to mention that earlier and that's anywhere from we can help you build a better resume cover letter and LinkedIn profile. We can help you with interview skills. We have some mentorship matching and then as well we have a network of executive coaches for those who may want to pursue that line as well. And for some folk's coaching's very, very beneficial. It's shifting coaching. It used to be thought you're in trouble, you better get a coach, but that's not the case anymore. If you just want to get better at who you are, coaching can help. And we've got a nice network of those, but the mentorship is a good way to go also.

John: Yeah. The CEOs and CFOs have been using coaching for years and years, and it's definitely not a negative that's for sure. Okay. Well, that last bit you told me about was actually new to me as well. So, I really appreciate that. Well, we're at our time now, so Peter, this has been fascinating. It's the most in-depth review of the organization I've heard in a long time. So, I really appreciate taking the time and sharing that with me and our listeners.

Dr. Peter Angood: Well, thank you, John. It's been a real privilege to be here. It's a wonderful profession that we all have, and it's a complex industry and physician leadership is really on the forefront of helping to create the next stage of change in the industry. So, it's good stuff.

John: Absolutely. All right. Thanks Peter. And with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Peter Angood: Bye John.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post What Is the Best Way to Empower Physician Leaders? – 264 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This week, Dr. Leelee Thames, the Chief Value Officer at Novant Health, is our guest. She is the third University of Tennessee physician executive MBA graduate to join us. During our interview, she will explain why she loves her job.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Dr. Thames’s career has progressed rapidly. Over a relatively short time, she advanced from practicing anesthesiologist to medical director, chief medical officer, and VP for quality, to her current role as CVO. She explains what attracted her to those roles, and how she demonstrated her competence as she progressed.

Being A Health System Chief Value Officer

Dr. Thames describes the importance of finding appropriate mentors. Leelee obtained her executive MBA seven years ago. She explains why she decided to get the MBA and how it has helped advance her career.

After spending time with health plans, I was really intrigued with this opportunity to work for a health system and really focus on care transformation and moving the organization towards value-based care.

She also outlines what she does as CVO, and why she prefers working in a health system. She closes by giving her advice for other physicians hoping to move into a health plan or health system leadership role. 

Summary

Physicians can accelerate their career progress by actively pursuing more challenging roles. It may also require a willingness to relocate. If you'd like like to contact Dr. Thames, the best option is to find her on LinkedIn.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode that you can download or read.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Leelee Thames LinkedIn Profile
• Novant Health
• New Hanover Health Advantage
• University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription PNC Episode 201

Why Being Health System Chief Value Officer is More Fun Than Being CMO

John: Today, I'm very happy to have another alumnus from the UT physician executive MBA program. She's going to be telling us how her career evolved from practicing anesthesiologists to chief value officer for a large health system. So, I want to welcome to the podcast Dr. Leelee Thames. Nice to see you.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Nice to see you too, John. Thank you for having me.

John: I'm really happy you're here. I was talking with Kate actually at the UT Pemba and I said, I would really love to talk to some of your graduates. For some reason, she thought of you right away and we were able to connect. Well, I'm really interested in careers, especially physicians who are doing leadership positions whether it's in a health system or an insurance company, something like that. So, this is going to be really interesting today.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Thank you. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

John: All right. So, what we'll usually do is we go back ways. We don't have to go back to your childhood, but your education, maybe the undergrad, and medical school. Just take us through that process briefly, and then we'll go from there.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Well, I first want to start by sharing that I'm coming from an immigrant family. It was actually ingrained in me to get a good education, to create a future worthy of the sacrifices that my family made in coming to America. And so, I knew I had to get a college education because my father who didn't know much English got one as well. And so, I went to Baylor University, I got a bachelor's in biology. I attended medical school at Texas A&M college of medicine. And from there, I went to Oregon Health & Science for anesthesiology training, where I also completed a clinical research fellowship in evidence-based medicine for clinical practice guidelines.

John: So, now, can you explain that? Because I saw that, it was a fellowship at the NIH, I believe, and that was sort of integrated into your residency.

Dr. Leelee Thames: That's right. It extended my residency for a year, but it was an integrative program and a wonderful opportunity where I could both practice my anesthesia as well as overlap it with clinical research. And so, I worked at the Oregon Evidence Practice Center there and it was such a wonderful opportunity and that's what led to my evolution in my career in leadership.

John: Okay. But it has the word "research" in it there. So, was that something that you thought initially you were going to be doing, clinical research? I want you to fill us in on that because that sounds a little interesting.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yeah. I thought my whole career, being a physician meant ongoing learning, lifelong learning. And I just thought being able to contribute to the sciences was something that would be really valuable. And so, that's why I thought doing a clinical research fellowship was going to not only advance anesthesia but just medicine as a whole and me as a physician.

John: And I bet too. I mean, so much of what we do when we start out in practice is trying to understand new drugs, new treatments, and really understanding how research is done and how to analyze and interpret. It can be a huge help not to mention actually doing your own studies if you get to that point. So, it sounds like fun.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yeah, it was. I worked with Dr. Roger Chou at OHSU and we really focused on comparative effectiveness reviews and systematic reviews to provide the best clinical guidelines and recommendations for various different positions.

John: Clinical guidelines. Now that seems to be a real tie-in to what you did later, I'm thinking, so we'll have to circle back to that. But then you began practicing as an anesthesiologist, correct?

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yes. I practiced in Portland, Oregon. For the first five years, I was part of a large anesthesia group. And then a year after that, I actually started my own anesthesia business called The Anesthesia Northwest. And that was fun learning the business side of standing up your own anesthesia company and all the financials and things like that. And I really think that really propelled me to make a decision on whether I like that business aspect of healthcare or did I want to just focus primarily on that clinical care?

John: What prompted you to start your own business?

Dr. Leelee Thames: There was a great opportunity there locally with an ambulatory surgical center. And so, I thought everything kind of lined up and I thought it

would be fun to be a business owner. I've always had that spirit of innovation and enjoying business and just thought I should go ahead with it and see how I landed.

John: Well, most business owners that I've talked to that have started something and didn't learn about it beforehand in terms of their education were like, "Well, there's a lot of different responsibilities in there that I wasn't aware of initially".

Dr. Leelee Thames: Right, right. It has a totally different level of managing the business itself even beyond that clinical space. So, it was a great experience and I really, really value that opportunity.

John: Now, if I understand your background and some of the other work you were doing, that wasn't the only thing you were doing, you were working as a medical director as well.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yeah. So, based on my clinical research fellowship in that work in clinical guidelines, I actually started advising insurance companies on how to incorporate evidence-based medicine into quality and utilization management programs using the highest level of evidence.

Actually, my whole career has always been in conjunction with not only my clinical practice but also working with payers. And so, I really valued these opportunities because it provided me with a global perspective on healthcare. And during that time frame was when the affordable care act was starting to take the lead in healthcare. And so, I knew that there was a great opportunity to be one of the problem-solvers as we move towards transformation in healthcare. And I really wanted to be one of those people who made a contribution.

John: So, that's when the ACOs were starting and trying to survive. And the "population health" so to speak was becoming one of the catchwords.

Dr. Leelee Thames: That's right. That's right. So, moving towards greater value, ensuring high-quality care and cost-effective care to reduce that ongoing projection of increasing GDP on health care. And so, with the healthcare landscape being so dynamic and all the shifts in payment reform it's been an exciting journey just because there are so many changes, so many regulations, and being involved in this space has really given me an opportunity to be innovative in a different way.

John: All right. So, I'm trying to mesh these two. So, you're practicing. You're trying to apply really good medicine frontline with patients. You're probably putting in place those kinds of protocols and things to ensure quality, but at the same time you're working with basically what was like a health plan or that was delivering. Well, it was kind of managing the delivery of care. It didn't really employ physicians. Right?

Dr. Leelee Thames: Right. Yeah. So, it was very interesting. I would have conversations with my colleagues and they would ask me questions, "Well, why is this a part of the clinical criteria?" and things like that. And it was valuable because I was able to incorporate those clinical conversations into some of those policies we would develop. And so, it was a wonderful experience to really mesh that business side with clinical care.

John: And then at some point you started to get involved. You shifted more towards working for, I think, explain this to me, if you can, was it like a health system that also had an integrated, maybe not its own insurance company, but it was either acting like an ACO. Tell me that process. What did you get into next?

Dr. Leelee Thames: Sure. So, after my time practicing clinically and then being involved with an insurance company in Oregon, I really was at a crossroads of trying to figure out how to move forward in my career. Because as you can imagine having a couple of full-time jobs and then getting an MBA was a lot of juggling happening.

And so, I really had to make a personal decision-career decision on which of these both incredibly fulfilling careers I was going to take. Because as you can imagine, I knew it was not going to be sustainable long-term if I kept on this path.

And so, after spending time at that first insurance company, I actually moved on to another insurance company and became the national CMO there. And then as part of that, there was an MSO that I helped with managing the shared services with the ACO. And so, there's a lot of parallels between what's happening in the ACO space and health plan space, as you mentioned, related to population health, managing total cost of care, because all of us at the end of the day want to achieve the quadruple aim.

And so, I'm getting to leverage my health plan background supporting these MSO services. I felt it would be a great opportunity to further expand my experiences and share that experience with a broader group of healthcare programs.

John: All right, now we're going to digress for a minute here for two reasons. Number one is going to be "Describe what the term MSO or the acronym stands for". And my experience is that the term is used in a lot of different ways from just somebody doing some services for an insurer or a hospital to sort of running and the claims processing and all that kind of thing. So, what is an MSO exactly in your experience?

Dr. Leelee Thames: MSO stands for Managed Service Organization. And so, a lot of health systems, you might have health plans or other products and things like that. They basically are able to gain economies of scale by centralizing shared services. And so, in that MSO if you can apply some of those operations across multiple businesses, you will gain not only cost savings but efficiencies.

John: Okay. You're talking about an MSO that's owned by a health system as opposed to a third-party MSOs that will come in and support somebody else?

Dr. Leelee Thames: Correct. Yeah. It's a way to describe the infrastructure where you housed the shared and support services.

John: Okay. Then the other digression is, you mentioned the MBA. And that is one of the reasons I have you on the podcast. So, tell me why you decided to pursue the MBA? Why did you choose UT Pemba? That's not my most critical question. I don't want to be just harping for my sponsor, but how did you make that decision? What kind of thought process did you go through in trying to decide which one to go to? Because there are so many different types of MBA programs, from what I know.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Right. Yeah. Well, I had the fortune of, again, having some of these business experiences and it really intrigued me because it opened my mind to additional possibilities as a physician, I never thought was possible. Because most of the time, a lot of physicians, including myself had thought, "Oh, I finished medical school, finished my training, and now I'm going to be a practicing provider. And that was the end of it".

But I saw this as an opportunity to do health care a little bit differently and how I could be part of the solution. And so, as you mentioned, there are so many MBAs out there, some physician executive MBAs and or just straight MBAs. And so, I did a lot of research online and I actually talked with a couple of physician executive MBAs in my local community and got insight on how they landed, where they were, and their insights.

And what I thought was really intriguing was that the UT physician executive MBA provided you with a network of physician leaders who you could draw on, even in your later years, post-graduation. And we as physicians and especially those who are in leadership positions or in managed care, really have a different vision and a different way of thinking of things. And it's been so valuable to me to be able to call up some colleagues and get their input on different ideas or how they did something at their health plans.

I really thought that network and getting that comradery with my fellow MBA students would be a great lifelong opportunity to draw on. And so, that's one of the main reasons why I chose UT Pemba. But also, just looking at the physicians and the staff who make up UT Pemba I thought were an incredible group. And definitely, that experience really ingrained upon me. That helped really form my decision on why I chose the path of moving into more physician leadership.

John: One of the things I've heard people talk about is whether to do an executive MBA, that's just physicians or not? And I've heard arguments on both sides. So, I don't know. What do you think about it? You obviously decided to go with the physician executive MBA, but did you feel like there were certain distinct advantages of that? Were there things you thought maybe the nonphysician might've had a slight edge in certain aspects? Or how did you decide about that?

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yeah, that's a great question. As I mentioned, I met with some physicians who had MBA experiences and I think from what they were experiencing, just having that physician experience is a bit different. And knowing that I wanted to stay in healthcare and make an impact in healthcare, it was important to, again, have that network. I also had a lot of friends who had MBAs who were not physicians. And it was hard for me to sort out how it would directly impact healthcare. That's really what drew me to UT's MBA program.

John: One thing I would imagine having not been through any of those programs though is that the healthcare finances is really a whole lot different from sort of your typical corporate financing. And so, I found that interesting as I was learning at the hospital I worked at as CMO. It was a different world that healthcare lives in.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Right. Right.

John: All right. So, that was about five years ago. And you did mention you still been in touch with some of the people you came to know. I know there are projects that can be done during the MBA. So, you probably developed some pretty long-term relationships, I would guess.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yeah. Some great friendships. And again, folks I can pulse check and say, "Hey, what do you think about this? What are you doing at your organization related to this?" And so, it's always been fun. It's always collaborative and great to share best practices across the country.

John: Now, I haven't asked you about this before we got on the call, but have you participated at all with the APL, The American Association for Physician Leadership?

Dr. Leelee Thames: No. No, I have not.

John: Because there's a lot of overlap there. A lot of people that I've talked to in the past and it has some of that networking, but obviously it's not the same as being actually in some kind of program together for a year. It's just a professional society.

Okay. Well now I really want to know what this job is called - Chief value officer. Tell us about the latest, what you've been up to for the last two or three years at your latest position.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yeah. So, after spending time with health plans, I was really intrigued with this opportunity to work for a health system and really focus on care transformation and moving the organization towards value-based care.

With my background in healthcare finance, health plan space, the intent, and the goal were to really achieve that quadruple aim. And one of those key components, as you may recall, is ensuring physician readiness. And so, I really felt that I could be a contributor in helping bring along additional physicians in moving towards value, that high-quality care that's cost-effective and enables us to better manage populations.

And so, it's also a building job. It's almost as if I'm doing some startup work. I helped start our Medicare advantage products and lead our ACOs and help with our employee health plan. It's been a lot of collaboration with folks on the hospital side and providers. And that was one of the missing pieces, moving away from practicing medicine to being on the health insurance side. I always longed to continue to have those colleagues.

This opportunity really allows me to take a holistic approach in connecting with my colleagues again in the provider space. And so, it's been a journey and it's been very wonderful to see how we are really trying to transform healthcare locally. And hopefully, this translates into more long-term success for our organization as a whole.

John: So, it seemed like there'd be two things going on here, at least, from probably hundreds of things. But you're trying to get physicians to think differently. Especially the longer they've been in practice, the less likely they're going to be aware of or embracing certain changes to how health care is provided.

And then the other piece that most organizations seem to have in my opinion is the lack of physician leadership. There are always physician leaders like yourself, but it always seems like they need more leaders. It's hard to take physicians out of the practice side to teach them to be managers and leaders. But I would think in this environment you would need to have more involvement.

So, how are you addressing both of those things in terms of just getting physicians to understand population health and managing differently? And then also maybe pulling along some of them to become more involved in leading the charge?

Dr. Leelee Thames: Well, we have a great group of physicians here, and so they've been wonderful to work with. And as we come to the table and talk about what our shared goals are, I think that's the best place to start with. Recognizing that we may diverge on what that future state is, but as long as we come together saying, "You know what? We all are working towards population health, improving outcomes, managing total cost of care, ensuring it's safe for patients".

I think with that starting point, understanding our intent at the end of the day is the same. That's really been the best catalyst to help move forward the conversations that can be quite challenging as you can imagine when we're talking about payment transformation or we're talking about how to mitigate risk and who bears that risk.

So, it's a journey. We're still on that journey, but I'm really confident that as we continue to have these conversations, we're going to get there. And the whole country is moving and working to get there. It's an exciting time in healthcare. A great time for innovation as it relates to not just research itself, but innovation in how we do healthcare better as a whole so that we can sustain this in the future.

John: It seemed like one of the things that was slowing some of the smaller hospitals around Chicago is being able to measure your outcomes in a way that you could actually take action and implement different approaches or changing the model of care. So, you feel like, at this point, most systems now have pretty good tools for measuring or get the information, whether it's directly from Medicare or some other way to be able to say, "Okay, we're going to put this in place and we're going to monitor what happens. We're going to measure the cost of care and the quality at the same time?"

Dr. Leelee Thames: Well, I would say it runs the gamut across the country from what I've heard, especially the smaller hospitals and smaller practices. I'm sure it's absolutely challenging just because funding the resources necessary to get those types of analytics in place is really challenging.

But as you're more involved in things like ACOs where CMS provides the information, or if you're self-funded, and you have that data straight from the payers or whoever's managing your claims, that's when it becomes a little bit easier because then you can move forward and manipulate that data.

But right now, I think there's a lot of wonderful resources out there. But again, it's a challenge and a barrier across the board. And we really need the payers to share as much information as possible to help with that complete picture in managing that total cost of care as well as quality for providers.

John: So, you sound like you're pretty challenged in your job, but tell us a little bit about how satisfying it is to work in this environment? I mean, you're not seeing patients, you're a doctor, you kind of thought, well, I'm going to start and see patients, but you're not doing that. And you're working in a completely different way, but of course, what you're doing is greatly affecting patient care. So, tell me your satisfaction level and how exciting it is to work where you're working right now.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yeah, that's a really great question, John, because I think that was really pivotal in my decision-making - What did I want at the end of the day? As an anesthesiologist, you take care of patients one at a time. And I wonder what would happen if I actually had the opportunity that would make an impact on hundreds or thousands of patients at a time?

And so that is really what drives me. The ability to make a positive and lasting impact on populations. Because at the end of the day, as a physician yourself, we really just want to ensure patients get the best possible care and you want to make sure it's cost-effective for them so that they can manage their health outcomes.

And this is really one of the most fun jobs I've ever had. It's not without its challenges and it's not without a lot of barriers to getting us to where we need to be, but that's what's exciting about it. How do we overcome, how do we succeed when there are new regulations that are putting pressure on the organization and putting pressure on providers as a whole? And so, being able to navigate that, for me, I think that's what's fun about the job of being a problem solver.

John: Yeah. It sounds like it would really, especially depending on your personality and how long you've been in medicine, it could really be something that's fun and challenging. Yes, it can be fun and challenging even though there might be some long days and some seemingly overwhelming challenges at times.

But let me shift gears now. Let's say I'm out of my residency, I'm an internist at one of your hospitals, or anesthesiologist, or a family doctor. I say, Dr. Thames, I really like what you're doing. It sounds pretty cool. How do I get from where I am here now, looking back the way you did it? What advice would you have for me? I'm a physician, I'm practicing. I like one-on-one care, but I would like to have a bigger impact, that I'd like to get involved in leadership in a hospital or a health system. What kind of advice would you have?

Dr. Leelee Thames: So, I would not be where I am today without other physician leaders who brought me along the way. So, I would recommend asking folks you see in positions where you might want to be, or you might want to learn more about. Just ask them, "Hey, could I spend some time with you learning about what you do?" I doubt anyone would say "no" because it's such a pleasure sharing with others your own journey.

And for me, how I've been able to transition and again, it's always been people along the way who really shared their life with me, that allowed me to get a better picture or get more insight to figure out where I want it to be. There are so many people out there who are ready and willing to help. And so, feel free to reach out to me as well if there's interest in learning. I think that's what we should do as physician colleagues to teach each other and learn from each other.

John: Do you think that there'll be a continuing need for pulling physicians into management and leadership jobs in this kind of environment?

Dr. Leelee Thames: Oh, absolutely. I think physicians are in a unique position because we have such a close bond with patients and we know what the patients not only need, but we know how they might respond just because we've interacted with them so closely. And we are in alignment with the overall goal of trying to help improve their health. I think we're in such a great position to really be an advocate for them. And that's what I see myself as really. Now part of my role is to be an advocate for patients. Be an advocate for my physician colleagues and ensure that we make this sustainable for our organization.

John: Yeah. I think the people that lead hospitals and health systems are dedicated, but I think the CFO needs a physician explaining to him or her what patient care really is when they've never experienced it first hand and how all these decisions aren't necessarily just financial decisions. There are important considerations for patients. And I agree with you definitely that physicians are in the best position to do that. A chief nursing officer can help a lot too, but I'll stand behind the chief medical officer any day.

And just before we close, the chief value officer, it's not a common term. From organization to organization have different terms, but you are chief value officer and president there. So, it's just a leadership position that really helps pull everything together, to try and improve patient care.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the key things is about care transformation because we know that we cannot stay in a fee-for-service world, and that is not what CMS will allow, that's not what employers want. Because it's really about outcomes at the end of the day. And really about ensuring that we can create a health system that's sustainable long-term.

And so that's what's exciting about my job. I try to see it as I'm the person who helps bridge that gap and try to think of ways for us to do things differently. And so, that's why the job is so fun. I'm almost a builder and get to think outside the box and try different things and use what's happening in leading industries to apply and hopefully, again, build upon so that we can improve and drive out outcomes.

John: It sounds like that so-called change management is a big piece of it. That's always something that's talked about in leadership training. All right. Well, this has been fun. This is very exciting. We'll have to touch base with you again in a few years and see what's happening. Any last bits of advice before I let you go for the listeners today?

Dr. Leelee Thames: Yeah. I would just suggest that if anyone's interested in a physician leadership position, healthcare leadership position, really take the time to investigate it and don't shrink back and don't be held back by fear. Because once you step out of that realm and get an opportunity to see the bigger picture in healthcare, I think you might be quite intrigued to figure out how you might fit in. And so, any way that I can support or help, I would love to do that for anyone.

John: Well, thank you very much. It has been very interesting and helpful. I'm going to put the links to your LinkedIn profile. It's easy to find. They can just look up your name, but I'll put that in the show notes if anybody wants to get in touch and ask you questions directly or recommend some other mentors and so forth. And so, with that, I really appreciate the time you spent with us today Leelee. It's been great. And I'll say goodbye at this point.

Dr. Leelee Thames: John, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

John: You're welcome. Take care.

Dr. Leelee Thames: Bye-bye.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Why Being Health System Chief Value Officer is More Fun Than Being CMO – 201 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In today’s interview, we'll hear from another great physician executive who graduated from the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA program. Dr. Rachel George explains how she was able to apply her expertise in quality improvement, and strategic and operational skills as a physician leader.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Combining QI Expertise with Strategic and Operational Skills

During our interview, Rachel explains what it was like to work in a variety of business settings. And she provides her advice on how to become a great physician executive.

I was asked to be the medical director. And then I went back and got my MBA because I thought that if I'm going to do the job, I need to get the skills that I need to do it well.

Advancing Your Career

Her top three recommendations for advancing your career are:

1. Get involved in committees and projects at whatever institution you are affiliated with.
2. Keep learning topics that interest you and that might be helpful to your career. Rachel focused on quality improvement, strategic planning, and other management skills.
3. Take advantage of networking with old and new colleagues and at professional society meetings such as the ACHE and AAPL.

SUMMARY

Not long after beginning her work as a full-time hospitalist, Rachel's employer recruited her to a management role. She found that she enjoyed it and that it opened up possibilities for advancing her career. Subsequently, she decided that an advanced business degree would help her situation. So, she explored her options and matriculated at one that was designed exclusively for physicians. This led to continued career advancement and opportunities in great physician executive positions. 

Remember this week to please go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/voicemessage and tell us about something on the podcast that has inspired or helped you, and the positive impact it had. Add a shout-out to a particular guest, if you like. And optionally, include your name and mention your website, if you have one.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode that you can download or read.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Rachel George's LinkedIn Profile
• University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program
• Interview with Dr. Kate Atchley, Executive Director at the Haslam College of Business
• How to Emerge as an Awesome Physician Executive – 093
• 5 Steps I Took to Be a Hospital Executive – 175

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription - PNC Episode 198

How a Great Physician Executive Combines QI Expertise with Strategic and Operational Skills

John: Today's guest is a great example of a physician executive who's worked in multiple settings. She did work in a hospital setting for several years, but she has a lot of experience outside the hospital setting as an executive VP and CMO. So, I really want to give a warm welcome to Dr. Rachel George. Hello.

Dr. Rachel George: Hey, John. How are you?

John: I am great. I'm so glad we could get together. You were referred to me by our sponsor, the UT PEMBA. So, that's another reason I wanted to connect with you. We'll talk about that in a minute. But yeah, what we usually do is start out with having our guests, just tell us a little bit about how they started out clinically and then walk us through what happened that led you into your management career.

Dr. Rachel George: Yeah, absolutely. So, I am an internal medicine background by physician and after finishing my residency, I was not really sure what I wanted to do when I grew up. I found a job that I really based it on geography because my husband had a job. He really liked it. I didn't want to ask him to move when I didn't know what I really wanted to do. And it was a great group of people.

So, I found myself in a hospitalist job, thinking, "Hey, I'll figure this, I'll do this for a year or two and then figure out what I want to do next". And I ended up actually really loving hospital medicine. And then shortly after I got there, I was asked to be the medical director of the group. I mean, honestly, for no other reason that I was the only person standing. We had a saying in hospital medicine back then that there were no gray-haired hospitalists, and there were not just a lot of people with experience.

So, I was asked to be the medical director, and then I went back and got my MBA because I thought that if I'm going to do the job, I need to get the skills that I need to do it well. So, I got an MBA. I grew the program there. We were very successful with the program. It continues to this day and it is a very successful program. And I was recruited to a national healthcare company, national hospital medicine company, which at the time was the largest privately held hospital medicine company VC backed, venture capital backed.

And I started as a regional medical director. I stayed there for about nine years and over the course of nine years, the organization grew and I grew with the organization. And so, by the time I left, I was president of one of their business units and managed $250 million in revenue, about 20-25 program, something like that over 12 or 15 states, somewhere in that range.

And then I left and went to a health system, where I was their senior vice president over emergency medicine, hospital medicine, for all of their 12 facilities, as part of their population health strategy. Lots of stuff happened as things happen in health systems. And I didn't stay there for very long as a new CEO came and the strategy changed and the position was eliminated. And I went to another national company as their CMO of hospital medicine, another national. This was an emergency medicine hospital medicine company, again, VC backed, privately held to lead hospital medicine. And so, those are some of the things that I've done over the last 15, 20 years of my career.

John: Okay. That's a good overview. I love it. Because I'm going to go back to some questions I have, and I didn't want to interrupt, but that's a good overview of a process. You didn't change jobs all that often. You were in an organization a couple of times there where you really grew within the organization, correct?

Dr. Rachel George: That's correct. Yeah. Especially in my first job, I was there for about five years before I was recruited away. And that was really where I started my administrative journey. It was in a hospital. I started as a medical director. I used to joke that when I first started, I was a hundred percent clinical and I did my administrative stuff on the side. And then that morphed to the point where I was a hundred percent administrative and I did my clinical stuff on the side when I got the chance.

But I really started a hundred percent clinical and doing the administrative stuff above and beyond that. A lot of committees, I can't even count the number of committees that I've been on in terms of code blue committee and the pharmacy and therapeutics committee and credentials. I was on the medic deck of the hospital. I just really took advantage of all of the leadership opportunities that were given to me at the hospital. I really took advantage of all of them.

John: Let me ask you this before you get into that next employer. Were there certain committees that you felt provided you more exposure? I found the MEC for a hospital, the medical executive committee was a good one, or I don't know, there are certain committees that seem to involve a little more learning of how to run, can you become the chair, do you run the meeting? What can you learn about the finances of the hospital? What do you think?

Dr. Rachel George: Yeah, so I think it's important to start wherever you can get a start. So you're never going to be able to start as a member of the medical executive committee. That's just not going to happen. Very rarely happens. So, what you want to do is you want to start wherever there is a need, and show your value. And they're also not going to make you chair of the committee at your first go. They're going to make you a member of the committee. So, be a member, be an active member, participate.

And as you get the opportunity, I think everybody knows what the BfR committees in the hospital are, P&T is one, credentials is another one. If there's a quality and oversight committee, that's another great one.

So, wherever you have the opportunity to be in some of these kinds of BfR committees, take the opportunity, take the opportunity to lead them, but then you have to be present. You have to be present. You have to be active, you have to participate. You can't just be there in membership only.

John: All right. And one other clarification, when you were working at that first hospital, that was a hospital-based group that you were in. It wasn't the one that was being staffed by an outside organization.

Dr. Rachel George: That's correct.

John: Although, it probably wouldn't make much difference. Because if you're a hospitalist there, whether you're employed directly or whether you're with a larger group, you're going to be involved in many of those committees, I would think.

Dr. Rachel George: Yeah. I mean, it really doesn't matter who your employer is because quite frankly, as in the hospital, you're a member of the medical staff. It doesn't matter if you're independent. It doesn't matter if you're employed by somebody else or by the hospital. You're a member of the medical staff. And as a member of the medical staff, you have all the rights as any other members of the medical staff, including the ability and truly it's an expectation that none of us kind of really fulfill, or the majority of us don't fulfill to be a member of committees and to help improve the quality of what's happening at the hospital.

John: Okay. Then you mentioned earlier that you decided to pursue an MBA and my listeners know the University of Tennessee, just because they've been a sponsor for a while, but in the sponsorship, we don't really talk about the program per se, in terms of what it's like to be in it. So, can you tell us a little bit? You said why you did it, but what were the challenges and what are you looking back on? How did you feel about that?

Dr. Rachel George: So, I'll just go through my journey just a little bit. And regardless of sponsorship, I think I would have this conversation. So, I went through and I looked at all of the executive MBAs, and living in Chicago, I had lots of options locally. And so, there were at the time only a small handful that were really focused on physicians. And so, the program at PEMBA, I really liked it at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, for a couple of reasons.

One, it's fully accredited. And there's no question about accreditation or any concern around that. The second reason I liked it is because it's all physicians. And that's good for two reasons. You're not sitting next to a CFO as you're doing some kind of finance and accounting. I mean, starting from the same level, which is a nice place to be at.

And also, when you're talking about finance, there's a focus on healthcare finance. And they're not talking about just marketing in general. When you're talking about queuing theory, we're not talking about how you build widgets in a warehouse, you're talking about ED throughput, which is where queuing theory is incredibly relevant in the hospital. So, everything becomes very hospital, healthcare focused, which is really nice.

The other nice thing about it is the network you develop. I think the latest statistic is they have like 700 graduates or something. You have no idea how many times I call someone and they're like, "Hey, I'm a PEMBA graduate. I know what it's like". It's really nice to have that network of physicians.

John: Yeah, I had someone ask me this question. I think I might've even done a podcast episode on this. But one of the things I listed, because it's come up so many times in the past is this idea of having this cohort of people you've gone through the program with, usually you're going to stay in touch with them, but then you can also really access a lot of the graduates going through, from what I understand. And that's true of all MBAs, really. I mean, usually you're working on projects, you get to know some of the other team members and then those things last beyond your graduation from the program.

Dr. Rachel George: The other thing I liked about the UTK program more than the others, any of the others. I feel like you can do anything for a year. I mean, I'm one of these people, I think so myself for a year. And I think most physicians can do really hard stuff for a year. And I don't want to fool anybody. It was hard. They're not taking any shortcuts. It was a really, really, really hard year. But it was a year. I can do it for a year. And so, that was okay.

John: So, then you did that, you made it through this, your time there at the hospital, and then you moved on to this large national organization. And what was that transition like? I mean, that had to be a different kind of job. Did it take you very long to start to feel like part of the team? We would like to hear about that.

Dr. Rachel George: Yeah. I think the two biggest challenges that I faced as I was transitioning over was one, I was no longer in one place and just managing a team in one location. One of my mentors used to call it managing by walking around. It was what you do generally when you're in a hospital or you're in a clinic or in one setting. I was overseeing people in multiple facilities in another state. And so, now you're managing from a distance and you're managing multiple people from a distance. That is a skill that is actually quite challenging to learn. You can be given a lot of clues on some things to do to make it easier. I can certainly give you some tips on how to do that a little bit better, but it's still hard to do. You just have to learn how to figure that out. And so that was one challenge.

And I think the other challenge is going from a not-for-profit healthcare system to a for profit VC backed, venture capital backed organization. And the organizations are very different. Not in terms of the fact that we're trying to make money because gosh, you've all heard, every good healthcare organization league has told you that without margin, there's no mission, right? If you don't make a buck, you don't have a mission anymore. And so, everybody wants to make sure that they're financially viable, without a doubt.

But when you are in a privately held organization, it moves things a lot faster. You have to be a lot more agile. You have to be willing to fail fast. There's no time or patience for committees to sit around and decide if that's the right thing to do. You make decisions and you move forward.

And so, that culture is very different and it worked well for me because personally I'm like that. I like to make decisions quickly. I like to move quickly. I don't particularly like to sit in a committee for too long. I think that's why I like hospital medicine more than primary care. It's instant gratification, right? You take care of people. You get them better and get them out the door as opposed to the long game of primary care. Both are important. Both are really relevant. You just have to figure out what's the better fit for you, as an individual.

John: It seems when you're in that situation and you're making decisions and you're managing teams that are remote, I don't know, I have to imagine you would have to do a fair number of hiring and firing, because if you don't have the right team, they're not going to implement and you're not there looking over their shoulders. So, that must have been a little bit of a challenge, I would think.

Dr. Rachel George: Yeah, it is. It's always a challenge. You do want to make those decisions, because if you don't think they're the right person for the job, then they're probably not happy. So, it's really making sure people are in the right positions that are best for them. And you're doing everyone a favor by doing it sooner rather than dragging it out because the rest of your team also gets bogged down, right? Because they feel this person is not pulling their weight or whatever the case may be, and they see nothing happening about it and it makes them have a harder time as well. I will say though that the day that firing somebody becomes easy is a day you need to take a very, very, very long vacation. Because that's crazy and it should never be.

John: It's the end of your rope. And it's like, everybody's going. No, that's not good. Hopefully that doesn't happen too often. You were there for a fair length of time. What is the difference between being a regional let's say CMO and a central business unit president? What does that even mean?

Dr. Rachel George: It's a lot about how much responsibility you have, and what are those responsibilities. So, they morph into being responsible for growth and strategy as well, and not just day to day operations, not just quality, because you're always responsible for that. And then kind of strategic partnerships conversations.

So, I moved from having conversations with my hospital CEOs and C-suite to system CEOs and C-suites. Kind of morphed into a more strategic type of thinking. So, that's more long-term and larger as opposed to the individual program.

When you're a medical director, you're worried about your program, your physicians and how to ensure that you're taking great quality care of all of your patients. And then you move up and you do something a little bit more and you're worried not only about that and the individuals, you're worried about the medical director, making sure that they are providing great leadership for their team. But then you're also worried about how's the relationship with the C-suite. You're worried about helping the hospital executives achieve their goals. And then as you move up, you're worried about how do you expand your organization? How do you expand your footprint? How do you ensure that you have strategic connections with systems?

John: Yeah, that sounds like a good distinction between what someone might say the difference between management and leadership in that kind of setting is more strategy, more about the mission, the vision and that sort of thing, as opposed to making sure that this unit's open tomorrow or someone shows up for work.

Dr. Rachel George: That's right. That's right. In some ways it's easier and in some ways it's harder. Dealing with the one-to-one individual that doesn't have that really high management skill set is harder than dealing with the people who have really high management skillsets to begin with. But then it's a bigger challenge.

John: Bigger challenge and responsibility. And if you get the strategy wrong, it's going to take a long time to reverse or shift gears then if you just hire the wrong person or maybe do something on a unit that it doesn't work for a few days, you just redo it.

Dr. Rachel George: The mistakes are a lot bigger. Oh, yeah.

John: So, then you move from that organization. Are you doing similar things in what your role is now? Explain more about what you're doing with the current organization.

Dr. Rachel George: Actually, I'm in transition right now. But my most recent organization, my title was CMO, but it was very operational. The title CMO varies very much from organization to organization. Some of them are very much just focused on quality. Some of them are focused on relations and community relations, and some of them are focused more on operations and strategy. And there's a mix of them. So, it's how CMO actually means a lot. Chief medical officer, at least. Not chief marketing officer, chief medical officer.

John: Right.

Dr. Rachel George: And so, where I was, it was operations and strategy and things like that. And so, really working with the hospital medicine team, turning it around. It was losing quite a bit of money when I got to the organization. And so, we were able to turn that around. Really moving from a strategy perspective, we moved into value-based care, brought in new technology and did tele-health and tele-nocturnists. So, a lot of larger big picture strategic types of things and a bigger footprint.

John: Okay. Well, I think just by virtue of what you've told us from your story, it's very inspirational. But let's go back to those that are really early in the process and they're thinking, "Okay, this sounds like it might be fun. I may or may not need to get that MBA right away". But maybe you can tell us what in your experience are like two or three of the major steps or strategies or tactics that someone might take, if they really think they want to pursue a similar career in the future.

Dr. Rachel George: Yeah. So, a couple of things that I would say is, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, get involved. I've had conversations several times with other physicians' executives and we all get frustrated with the same thing, which every once in a while, we have someone come up to us who may have a tremendous amount of experience as a clinician and it's probably a spectacular clinician, but who wants to jump into leadership and usually wants to be the CMO of the hospital.

I mean, they don't want to start for less than that. And you ask them what they've done. And the fact is that they've done nothing in terms of truly objective leadership. There's a lot of subjective stuff. You are kind of the unspoken leader and all of that kind of stuff, and that's important as well, but really objectively, what are you doing?

And so, that's why I'll say in your hospital, get involved in committees, chair committees. I promise you they will be happy to have you, and have you on a committee. They're always looking for people. If you're a member of a medical group, what can you do in your medical group to provide leadership, and what are the opportunities there. And whether it's quality or making the schedule or whatever the case may be, let's find opportunities for leadership there.

As you do that, think about what it is that really interests you. Because we were talking about the different roles that CMOs have. You can take a quality track. You can take if you're focused on operations, if you're focused on strategy. I mean, what is it that you really enjoy doing? And trying to really focus on that and hone in on that and get good at that. So, if your focus is on quality, then make sure that you understand and educate yourself on what is happening nationally in quality. What are the metrics that you should be looking at?

So, start educating yourself on whatever it is that you want to be doing. And my way of doing that was to go get an MBA, but that is certainly not the only way to do that. So, educate yourself whether formally or informally on whatever it is that you're interested in. That would be two.

The third thing I would say is start networking. Three or four of the jobs I've gotten were all because of my network. I was rarely out looking for a position and my network contacted me and said, "Hey, this is something we think you might be interested in". And so, network. Go to professional society meetings, think about the American Association of Physician Leadership, AAPL. Become members there. Become a member of your specialty.

So, I was a member of the society of hospital medicine or the American cardiology society, or the American society of critical care medicine. Whatever your specialty is, become involved there. Become involved in committees at those organizations. Again, they're always looking for people to participate. Become involved, show your leadership and start networking. And so, network, network, network, network, network, meet people, go to meetings, go to local meetings, go to chapter meetings, meet people, put yourself out there and volunteer for leadership. Don't expect to get paid at the beginning. You're not going to, but what you're doing is building up the network of people, but also the experience that will help you get to the next level. So, lots of committees, do a lot of things, educate yourself, and network. So those are the three.

John: I think those are great bits of advice. I think people forget that whether it's your state medical society, your professional society at the state or national level, they all have committees. They all have things they're trying to do. They need input and pay. There are 10 other doctors on the committee. Why shouldn't you be the chair after a couple of years? And that's really where you're going to get the nitty gritty experience I would think, then just sort of showing up on a Zoom call or showing up at a live meeting for an hour and then going home.

All right. Well, that is very interesting and instructive. The networking. When we think about networking, we're like, "Oh, we're going to go to a meeting or to stand around a table with a drink at the end", which is like, I couldn't do it. I'm just such an introvert. But you're talking about really just staying in touch with people that you meet, that you run into, particularly on these committees and these organizations. Can you think of some of the people that you got their jobs from? What was their relationship to you? Just to get a little insight into that.

Dr. Rachel George: Yeah. So first of all, let me just say, most people have left me because I've learned to be personable and in crowds, but I am very much an introvert and nothing stresses me more than going into a room full of people that I don't know and trying to make conversation. And I think about it. So, if any of you see me at a meeting, come up to me and talk to me, I will be grateful for life because I am standing in a corner just shivering because I hate it. So, I get it, all right? Which is why committees are a good thing to do because you're automatically thrown into a small group where we all focus on the same thing.

But one of the first opportunities that I got was because I was involved with the society of hospital medicine. I attended one of their leadership conferences, which was a much smaller group. And I went off to someone there and I spoke to several people that I got to meet there. And I said, "Hey, I'm looking for new opportunities. And so, if you hear anything, this is what I've done. This is who I am, this is what I've done". And by then I had my MBA too. I said "I have my MBA and this is what I've done".

And honestly, I got a call. It was months later. I got a call months later. And I honestly thought it was some committee work that I was working on with them. I thought they were calling me about a committee. They said, "Hey, I have a job offer for you". And I remember I was in the car having this conversation because literally I thought it was about committee work. "It's not that important. I'll just take the call in the car, no big deal". I almost drove off the road because I was so surprised. And it wasn't somebody that I knew well. I have come to know them incredibly well over the years, but at the time I spoke to them half a dozen times in all around the staff. Other than that conversation that I've had initially, it was all around stuff that was very specific to stuff that we were doing together with in committees. And so, networking is just so important.

John: Well, you're probably not going to tell us this, but probably in that interaction about those committees, you were always on time, you were doing work, you were making them satisfied. They were seeing your work ethic. And so, it's not just you just show up, but actually perform.

Dr. Rachel George: That goes without saying. Don't plan to be anywhere late ever. That's just a non-starter. And you can't just show up at the Zoom meeting. You have to be there, you have to participate, you have to volunteer, and then you have to fulfill your commitment to keep saying that you're going to research something and get back to the team, research and get back to the team.

John: I suppose the networking could go both ways if you're given different responsibilities and you blow them off and you don't show up and you don't call, it's going to definitely work to the negative in that case.

Dr. Rachel George: Absolutely. Absolutely. And we all know those people too. Right? We all know those people. Don't give them that task if you know they're not going to get it done and they don't follow up. So, don't be one of them.

John: All right. Well, that has been very fun to listen to and hear your story and what you've learned and shared with us. We could probably go on for another hour or two, but I got to respect your time. So, we're going to end here in a minute, but any last words of advice or encouragement for our listeners that might be thinking about doing something like this.

Dr. Rachel George: Yeah. I will say that right now is probably a really difficult time in healthcare. There are a lot of people looking to get out of clinical medicine for all of the challenges that we faced in the last year and to go into things that are outside of clinical medicine. So, some things that I'll say is don't be discouraged. Because as many people are looking outside of medicine, there are just as many opportunities that are opening up.

Really explore what it is that you want to do. There is so much out in the world, out there outside of the hospital. Healthcare technology, if you are interested in tech is just booming right now. And every single organization needs clinical expertise. Be willing to volunteer your time if necessary, or be willing to do something part-time or to act as an advisor. To get the experience, get your foot in the door, and start meeting people.

John: All right. Thank you for that. Rachel, this has been fun. I really appreciate you being with us today. And I guess at this point with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Rachel George: Bye-bye. Thank you so much.

John: It's been my pleasure.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post How a Great Physician Executive Combines QI Expertise with Strategic and Operational Skills – 198 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Dr. Randall (Randy) Cook explains to us why coaching is so essential for health care leaders. His father was a coach. He has been coached. And now he is coaching others.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Why Coaching Is So Essential for Healthcare Leaders 

The many years of clinical, managerial, and leadership experience have provided Randy with invaluable insight into medicine and medical practice management. Randy integrates his clinical, management, and leadership experiences in his current role as Senior Executive Physician Coach at MD Coaches.

The object of the game… is to help them discover where their their strengths are, and to figure out ways to exploit those.

In this interview, Randy describes his clinical career and transition to coach and podcaster. He also explains his approach to coaching and why coaching is so essential for practicing physicians and physician leaders.

Prescription for Success Podcast

You absolutely must listen to the Prescription for Success Podcast. Each week, Randy interviews interesting guests who address important topics affecting the very nature of healthcare and medical practice.

And if you’d like to get a FREE copy of the REPORT from Randy and MDCoaches that I mentioned during our discussion (Nine Decisive Actions You Can Take Today to Be a Better Physician and Leader), simply go to mymdcoaches.com/doctor.

[And, within the next few weeks, I will be a guest on an episode of Randy's show. – JJ]

Summary

You can learn more about MD Coaches at mymdcoaches.com, and about the Prescription for Success Podcast at rxforsuccesspodcast.com.

And please go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/voicemessage and tell us all about something on the podcast that has inspired or helped you, and the positive impact it had. Add a shout-out to a particular guest, if you like. And optionally, include your name and mention your website, if you have one.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode that you can download or read.

Links for Today's Episode:

• MD Coaches Website
• Rx for Success Podcast
• Nine Decisive Actions You Can Take Today to Be a Better Physician and Leader
• Dr. Randy Cook's LinkedIn Page
• Email for Dr. Randy Cook: randall.cook@mymdcoaches.com

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

Email Download New Tab

Transcription - PNC Podcast Episode 197

Top Reasons Why Coaching Is So Essential for Healthcare Leaders

John: Today we have a fine example of one of my doctor podcast network colleagues who's also a senior executive physician coach. I want to hear a lot about that. Dr. Randy Cook, welcome to the PNC podcast.

Dr. Randy Cook: Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a great pleasure to meet with a fellow podcaster.

John: It is fun, but then I always end up comparing myself to other people like, "Oh, this podcaster does this so much better than me, or they've got a better voice than me". But it's great to talk to other podcast hosts and I'm really happy to have you here. And I think it'll be fun.

Dr. Randy Cook: I bet it will be. I'm looking forward to it.

John: And I know that particularly from listening to your episodes because you're an excellent interviewer who seems very inquisitive, very interested.

Dr. Randy Cook: I'm nosy.

John: Yeah. Tell us how did you acquire those skills?

Dr. Randy Cook: Believe it or not, by the time I got into my early teens, I was pretty sure that I was going to go to medical school. And when I turned 16, I had the opportunity to go to work in a small market radio station in East Central Alabama. And I found it to be very agreeable. I liked the work. It was a lot of fun for a lot of reasons. And briefly, I thought, "Well, maybe this might be something that I could do". I even kind of had an interest in sports broadcasting, but I had the presence of mind to kind of look around at other people in the business. And most of them, the great, great, great majority of them were kind of having a hard time making ends meet. And I thought, "Well, this was a nice youthful endeavor, a time for me to get busy and get trained to do something that'll make a living for me". So, that's the story.

John: Excellent. Because I thought I heard in one of your episodes where I read somewhere that you had some experience in radio, but when I went to your LinkedIn profile and I started looking around, I couldn't find any proof of it.

Dr. Randy Cook: Oh, it's way back. And interestingly, the oddest things happened. There is a Facebook group that I'm a member of called "Forgotten Alabama". And people put up pictures of these old broken-down homes and caving in churches and graveyards and things of that nature. And one day I'm thumbing through there and I looked and I saw the crumbling down radio station where I used to work. It's funny.

John: Very funny, very interesting that that would show up on a Facebook page.

Dr. Randy Cook: I know.

John: All right. Well, we want to hear more about what happened after the radio experience in terms of briefly your education and then what you did, primarily clinically, and then segue into what you're doing in more recent years.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, I'm going to abbreviate that as best as I can. We're talking about 44 years' worth of work here. I grew up in the small town south in an area similar to where I live now and moved to the big city of Birmingham to get my undergraduate education and also medical school. I got my MD at what is now the University of Alabama at Birmingham. And I knew early on that I wanted to go into surgery and decided to do my residency at the Medical College of Georgia in Augusta for no other reason than I thought it would be a cool place to be. It's kind of a smallish town as well. And I thought, "Gee, it might be nice to be able to go and see the masters". And I actually worked in the first state station out there for three consecutive years at the masters. So that was really cool.

John: That's nice.

Dr. Randy Cook: Unlike a lot of really successful people, I have never been a long-term planner. When I entered my fifth year of residency, I really didn't have a plan about what I was going to do. And one of the former faculty members at the medical college of Georgia on the surgery faculty had left about the time I started my chief residency and within about six weeks or eight weeks, I think he called me and he said, "I'm in Clearwater, Florida. I'm in a place where I've got more business than I can do. Big multi-specialty group. The partners want me to bring on another surgeon right away and I can hold it down until you can get here if you can give me your commitment right now". So that was it. That was how I lined up my first clinical practice.

And I kind of did things in reverse order. I started life in a gigantic multi-specialty group. I won't even begin to go into the details because it just takes too long, but I decided to move back home to Alabama. I joined a small surgical group, which dissolved after about five years. And then I found myself as a solo practitioner, during the last years of my surgical life. And then I was asked by a hospital administrator to consider opening a wound care center and hyperbaric medicine center in our hospital.

And it was a good time to do that for a lot of reasons. I needed to get out of the emergency room call and so forth. But I started a really intensive reeducation process. A lot of people that go into these wound care clinics will go to a one-week course and they just pick up the paycheck. But I got really serious about it, I got involved in management and got involved in wound care education. I got board certified in hyperbaric medicine. And that was what I did for the last years of my practice.

John: It sounds less intense than a surgical out of residency type of practice, but still extremely important in clinical and using many of your surgical skills.

Dr. Randy Cook: It was much less intense than surgery and from the standpoint of the day-to-day urgency, but the professional satisfaction was just profound. Whereas in surgery, you meet patients, you do an operation on, you get them through it, and then they're gone. They're out of your life forever. But chronic wound care is quite the opposite of that. You see people week after week after week, sometimes for years. And it was profoundly satisfying. I'm really glad I had an opportunity to do that.

John: Yeah. That sounds like the kind of things that an internist or family doctor does is part of their practice in terms of just a long-term relationship and you really get to know people. But ultimately you had to leave or you chose to leave that and you've been doing some other things and I'm really interested in how you became involved as a coach with MD coaches and then how that tied into the podcast.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, like everything else in my life, as I mentioned before, I'm not much of a planner. I hadn't really intended to retire quite so early. I was not that early. I was 67 years old, but frankly, I just got mad and quit. And I didn't have any plan other than to do what retired people do. I had met Rhonda Crowe, who is the CEO of MD Coaches several years before. My wound center was under the management of a big company called Healogics. I was on their teaching faculty for many years instructing these people that were coming to learn how to be wound care specialists. And so, we knew each other through that professional connection.

And I guess about seven or eight or nine months before I made that decision that I was going to pull the plug, Rhonda called me out of the blue and said, "I'm starting this coaching company and I want to publicize it with a podcast. And I know you have a history in radio. Would you consider doing that?" And my response was "Rhonda, do you know that my radio experience was concurrent with the invention of the vacuum tubes?" She said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that, but this is what I want to do".

So, that's how both of those things came to be. She was looking for people that she thought would be qualified coaches. And she thought that if for no other reason, my 44 years of experience might qualify me for that. And she thought I'd be good for the podcast. So, we did it.

John: So, what's the experience been? Let's start with the coaching and then we'll get to the podcast.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, the coaching is still, very much, in the startup phase, and involves a significant amount of additional education. It's not something that I think a person can do just because they think they might be a good mentor confidant or whatever. There are some things to be learned about coaching. And so, I enrolled in a course that I could do remotely and got myself certified as a coach.

We have hired two additional physician coaches as well. And we were about to hire a fourth. What we need now are more clients. It's still very much in the startup phase, but it is a very satisfying way to kind of take advantage of the experience that you've accumulated in the past and see if you can enrich somebody else's life with the benefit of your experience.

John: Now, I've talked to many coaches over the years, and physician coaching has become a very popular nonclinical job or career. But of course, there are different types of coaching. I kind of get the idea that MD Coaches is focusing more on the leadership, executive. I mean, there's definitely a huge need for executive coaches. They've been around for years and are the most really aggressive CEOs and CFOs. They use coaching quite a bit, but physicians don't typically. But I would say it's important and particularly the physician leaders could use coaching in many circumstances. And so, I want your opinion on that in your experience and what you've learned on that.

Dr. Randy Cook: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I'm trying not to sound too arrogant. I think a person like me is in a really unique position to help new physicians understand the feeling of incredible frustration that they have, and they do. All this talk that we hear about burnout is there I think because of the world that they thought that they were coming into, the healing arts turns out to be nothing like what they're experiencing. And it is absolutely clear to me that the reason for that is, whereas the situation that existed when I started my practice, was that, if you were hospital connected or hospital-based in any way if there was a decision to be made, even remotely clinical, the administrators came to the physicians and said, "What should we do?" And the physician spoke. And then that became the policy.

What has happened in the evolution, over the last four and a half decades since I began my practice is the physicians have become employees and people that go to business school, see employees as not an asset, but as overhit.

And as we all know, the value of a physician, particularly in hospital practice has come under great scrutiny. If the physicians are widgets and the physician widgets costs 100 Bitcoin or whatever you want to name per year, and they provide a service that creates revenue, but then along comes a nurse practitioner that you can get for far less Bitcoin. And even though they may not be as productive, their overhead is so much lower that they seem like a very attractive alternative. Well, this is the world that we live in. And in addition to that, there are countless other areas of clinical decision-making that should be made by physicians that are not simply because the people in the C-suite feel that it's their job and their privilege because of their position to make those decisions.

Well, my opinion, and I think I reflect the opinion of those who work with me at MD Coaches, is that we need to reassert our authority and make these people understand the areas where they should remain silent and have some respect for the wisdom of acquired clinical experience. So that's what we're trying to create. And that is by coaching particularly young physicians, help them understand to speak the language of business, and become more persuasive in their efforts to make medical care better for the patient.

John: Well, I think you're right on what you're doing and the goal of that whole process, because I was a CMO for 15 years at a hospital setting, and I watched it if you go back far enough up the half of the hospitals in the US were owned by physicians. That was in the 1950s, and over time that went away because it became complex, it got expensive and you've had all these changes.

But I think you're right and I observed this quite a bit is that physicians were no longer looked at as the professional. Just that part of it, they are looked at more as an employee, as a commodity. And I think some of these people that were running the organizations, that are running the organizations don't really understand the risk that they're getting into putting non-physicians making decisions about patients that can go wrong in a minute. So, we haven't seen that, although I've personally seen the increase in lawsuits against nurse practitioners and PAs, so there was a period of time when that didn't happen.

Dr. Randy Cook: I think we're going to see a lot more of that, no question. But in the meantime, the other thing that I would like to see recognized is that it is critically important with respect to the ethical responsibility that we have as physicians that patients receive the best care that they can possibly receive. And there is just not any conceivable way that a non-medically trained CEO of any sort can make those decisions without input from a fully medically trained individual. And we at MD Coaches want to make those people available.

John: Yes. And I think it's very doable, very doable. And as physicians recognize they need to get involved. They need to take some of those leadership positions. It's been demonstrated that the quality is better with organizations that have more physicians in leadership positions, but a lot of us aren't ready to do that. And if you can help foster that in physicians who have the other skills it's going to work out great in the long run.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, we certainly hope so. And one of the things that I've noticed particularly over the last 10 to 15 years is that we find that there are physicians coming into putative leadership roles, but they don't really advocate for the physicians. They come to their physician colleagues and they say, "Well, now you just don't understand, this is a business. We've got to do it this way". And we just can't have that. The responsibility is too profound. The ethics are well-established and we need to be there for the patients.

John: Yeah. And I think that those skills can be learned, how to be an advocate for the patients yet still maintain your position as a member of a senior executive team and just make the whole situation better.

Dr. Randy Cook: That's what we're trying to do.

John: So now this organization that you're with had the wisdom to say, "You know what? We need to get the word out somehow". Well, we could write about it, we could do a blog or a newsletter, but a podcast sounds a lot more fun.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, it has been for me.

John: And really, it's becoming a very popular platform. So, yeah. What do you think about that?

Dr. Randy Cook: I'm having a lot of fun with it. I like to pick people's brains and we have had just amazingly interesting people. Obviously, over a lengthy career, I've had the opportunity to sit around in doctor's lounges and have conversations with physicians all my life. And of course, they do all have an uninteresting story to tell. And if you enlarge the pool that you select from, you find that you can have some just amazing conversations.

My vocabulary betrays me when I try to talk about the kinds of individuals that we've had on the show. Mustafa was a kid that grew up in Lebanon during the Civil War. He walked to school every day with people being shot before his eyes and being run over by tanks and those kinds of things. He came to this country, he had just enough money in his pocket to get from Tel Aviv to New York City. He did not speak a word of English. And the day after he arrived, he was on the streets of New York selling umbrellas. And he completely sold out his inventory and it wasn't even raining and he couldn't speak a word of English.

John: That's crazy.

Dr. Randy Cook: This guy is now a world-renowned interventional cardiologist. And there's just story after story like that, that takes my breath away.

John: Yeah. They're very inspiring for sure. And it's just crazy what people can do if they set their mind to it. But physicians, I don't want to brag here or anything, I'm a physician.

Dr. Randy Cook: Go ahead.

John: Physicians are the most interesting people. You think you know what a physician is. Oh, someone who went to school, had everything paid for, and is just coasting now. And number one, people don't understand the stress that physicians are under, but they also don't understand all the varied backgrounds that people come from as they get into this career.

Dr. Randy Cook: Yeah. I've had that very same observation. In fact, I have commented on it in my blog from time to time, and that is people who don't live in the medical world have this idea that there is a particular personality type that populates the world of medicine. And it couldn't be further from the truth. There are as many different personality types as there are individuals, and they've all got a story to tell and I really get a kick out of telling it.

John: Well, I can tell when I listen, because you're very inquisitive. You have a lot of great questions and I can sense the history and radio coming out a bit in those interviews. So, I think it's great.

Dr. Randy Cook: Well, I can't even begin to say how grateful that I am, that I had something to fill the space when I walked away suddenly from my practice because, as I said, it came on quite a bit more suddenly than I had anticipated, but it's a great fit for me, I think. And I'm going to keep on doing it for a while.

John: Good, we're glad. So, it sounds like not only the podcast but working with MD Coaches has been fun, and building this coaching service is interesting and kind of keeping you motivated to get up every day and do that as well as everything else you might be doing when you're not doing that.

Dr. Randy Cook: That's exactly right. As I say, we are continuing to build our stable of coaches and attempting to build a base of clients. And we look forward, as rewarding as the conversations that I'm having with physicians in all different areas of practice. I'm really looking forward to maybe helping some young people turn this thing around. We have seen it kind of going south for a very long time. If I could live long enough and have enough of an influence to see that shift start to turn around, it would really be a terrifically rewarding experience for me. So that's what I intend to do.

John: That's great. Now I'm doing something I probably shouldn't do as a host and an interviewer. I want to go back to something earlier, but we're talking about coaching right now and the need for coaching for physicians. And as we spoke about earlier, this has been something that's commonly seen in business. A lot of CEOs and CEOs and others get regular executive-level coaching. So, I did promise myself I was going to ask you, in your opinion, what really are the benefits of that sort of coaching, whether to an executive that's not a physician or is a physician in your opinion?

Dr. Randy Cook: I am the son of a coach. My dad was an athletic coach. My big brother was an athletic coach. And I think what I've picked up from them is, if you're a coach, your job is not to tell your protege what to do, how to do, how to get things accomplished. Your job is to help them discover and understand and develop the skills that they already have. We've all got different skills. So, I think you're making a mistake if you go to a client and say, "Well, look, this is what you're going to have to do if you're going to be successful as an executive".

The object of the game, in my opinion, and it is strictly my opinion, is to help them discover where their strengths are and then figure out ways to exploit those and make the best of them. So, if you're talking about executive coaching, which is what we concentrate on specifically within the healthcare world, the idea is to help people who possibly never have even thought about what their executive skills might be, help them discover those skills, and show them or guide them in such a way that they make the best use of those skills.

And you do that in two ways, I think. One is simply by listening to what they have to say. And the other thing is something that we take advantage of, and that is specialized testing to evaluate individuals and find out more about what their personality type is like, where their strengths are, where their weaknesses are. So, specialized personality inventories that are specifically designed to help people be more successful in executive positions are something that we absolutely will be taking advantage of.

John: That sounds very similar to what my experience was. The executive team at the hospital I worked at, we all went through multiple personality tests individually, and then we'd share things as a group and it would help us to learn how to interact with one another differently. And the physicians need the same kind of training and coaching to bring them up to that level so they can have those conversations.

Dr. Randy Cook: Absolutely.

John: Well, this has been very interesting, Randy. I appreciate you being here today. We're going to run out of time, give us the name of the company and the link, the URL for that, if you would.

Dr. Randy Cook: Sure. The company is MD Coaches, which can be found at mymdcoaches.com. And I would just absolutely be thrilled to death if people would check into my podcast from time to time. We release one every Monday, it's called Prescription for Success, and the website is rxforsuccesspodcast.com. It can be followed on Apple podcasts or any of the usual platforms. We have new episodes every Monday. And we'd love to have more listeners. And if there's somebody out there that thinks they would like to be a guest or they know who would be a good guest, we'd love to hear from them as well. And I can be contacted at randall.cook@mymdcoaches.com.

John: Excellent. And I think people can also learn a little bit more about you if they like from looking at your LinkedIn profile.

Dr. Randy Cook: Yeah. I am on LinkedIn. We're on LinkedIn, we're on Facebook, all that stuff.

John: Okay. Well, thank you very much, Randy. I appreciate you being here today. And with that, I will say goodbye.

Dr. Randy Cook: Thanks so much, John. It's been great.

Scroll back to top

Sign up to receive email reminders, news, and free stuff every week!

Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you reminders each podcast episode, notices about nonclinical jobs, information about free and paid courses, and other curated information just for you.

powered by

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Top Reasons Why Coaching Is So Essential for Healthcare Leaders – 197 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In this week's show, I explain the 5 steps I took to go from family physician to hospital Chief Medical Officer.

I start by explaining why I believe hospital leadership is an excellent career. Then I set the stage for the rest of the discussion.

Our Sponsor

Today's sponsor is a new one: Vohra Wound Physicians. This is a great physician-led company, that is looking for additional physicians to join its team. Wound care is in great demand, and Vohra enables physicians to focus on taking care of patients without administrative burdens.

And working for Vohra means no weekends and no call. Vohra will support you with its excellent in-house training. And Vohra embraces technology, integrating telemedicine so that you have more flexibility in your schedule while reducing travel demands.

If you have an unrestricted license to practice, have been actively practicing for the past 12 months, and are able to commit to at least three 8-hour days of work each week, you should contact Vohra Wound Physicians here: nonclinicalphysicians.com/woundcare. 

5 Steps to a Leadership Position

Here are the five steps I describe in today's monologue:

1. Be curious and volunteer for committees and special projects;
2. Engage one or more mentors;
3. Try different part-time paid positions as pilots to see what interests you while gaining new skills;
4. Get additional education and certification or a new degree;
5. Go for it, and ask for the job.

My path spanned about 20 years. But you can compress what I did into a much shorter time frame. In the end, you will find a well-compensated position that enables you to have a meaningful impact on healthcare in your community. 

And if you're like me, you'll have fun doing it.

Summary

This is an excellent career open to any physician who regularly works in the hospital setting. By demonstrating interest, learning on the job, obtaining the help of a mentor, and furthering your education, you will be able to find a career as a hospital executive.

Links for Today's Episode:

• American Association for Physician Leadership
• Follow Six Essential Rules to Engage a Mentor
• Vohra Wound Care Jobs

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. It should not be construed as medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post 5 Steps I Took to Be a Hospital Executive – 175 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

On this week’s episode of the PNC podcast, Paul Esselman returns to the show to discuss new leadership roles for the restless physician executive.

Paul is the President and Managing Director of Cejka Search, a health care executive search firm that focuses on leadership positions. He describes how the spectrum of leadership roles for physicians has expanded beyond the Chief Medical Officer and Medical Director roles of the past. Physician leaders must now be multifaceted, bridging ambulatory, inpatient, post-acute and long-term care.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country, with over 650 graduates. And, unlike other programs, which typically run 1 – 1/2 to 2 years, this program only takes a year to complete. Recently, Economist Magazine ranked the business school #1 in the world for the Most Relevant Executive MBA.

While in the program, you'll participate in a company project, thereby contributing to your organization. As a result, University of Tennessee PEMBA students bring exceptional value to their organizations.

Graduates have taken leadership positions at major healthcare organizations. And they've become entrepreneurs and business owners.

By joining the University of Tennessee physician executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills needed to advance your career. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office by calling (865) 974-6526 or go to vitalpe.net/physicianmba.

The Restless Physician Executive

In recent years, more physicians are stepping into roles such as Chief Integration Officer, Chief Transformation Officer and Chief Operating Officer. In this episode, Paul explains the responsibilities of these leadership positions.

Before seeking such a position, however, Paul encourages physicians to ask themselves, “Is this really what I want to do?” Some physicians find that they miss patient care, while others enjoy spending time with the board or out in their community.

Sharpen Your Skills

For aspiring physician leaders, Paul suggests that you first broaden your experience. Join committees and volunteer for leadership roles whenever possible. This will demonstrate your ability to accept additional responsibilities. And it is important for your resume to reflect growth over time.

Second, Paul advises that every leader needs to have at least one mentor. Experienced leaders in your field can ensure that you are on the right path to meet your goals.

Third, Paul says to focus on your interpersonal skills. Colleagues who can speak to your ability to collaborate will differentiate you from high-achieving physicians who have cracked a lot of eggs on their leadership journey.

Lastly, Paul recognizes that advanced degrees are important, but experience is equally important. Being able to explain the value of your education is more important than simply having the degree.

The post What Is New for the Restless Physician Executive? – 128 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

On this episode of the PNC podcast, freelance consultant, Christopher H. Loo, MD-PhD, describes how he left clinical medicine, became financially independent by the age of 29, and developed his consulting practice.

Now a freelance consultant and author of three books, Christopher is a fascinating example of the ways in which you can make your MD work for you outside of clinical practice.

Background

Born and raised in Houston, TX, Christopher completed his undergraduate degree at Texas A&M on a full scholarship. He then went on to get his MD-PhD in medical science at Baylor.

Although he was completing a medical degree, Christopher was an entrepreneur at heart. While at Baylor, he started several side hustles in real estate and stocks that became lucrative projects.

Despite growing financial independence from his businesses, Christopher was still intent on completing his residency and becoming a practicing doctor. After graduating, he was accepted at Rutgers University in New Jersey and began a residency in orthopedics.

“I loved med school. I loved grad school. Then the first day of residency it was just like, ‘Oh my God, what did I get myself into?'”

Dr. Christopher H. Loo

However, unlike so many doctors that experience burnout before realizing that clinical medicine is not for them, Chris knew almost immediately. “I loved med school. I loved grad school. Then the first day of residency it's just like, ‘Oh my God, what did I get myself into?'”

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country, with over 650 graduates. Unlike other programs, which typically run 1 – 1/2 to 2 years, this program only takes a year to complete. And Economist Magazine recently ranked the business school #1 in the world for the Most Relevant Executive MBA.

University of Tennessee PEMBA students bring exceptional value to their organizations. While in the program, you'll participate in a company project, thereby contributing to your organization.

Graduates have taken leadership positions at major healthcare organizations. And they've become entrepreneurs and business owners.

By joining the University of Tennessee physician executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to advance your career. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office by calling (865) 974-6526 or go to vitalpe.net/physicianmba.

Becoming a Freelance Consultant

Because of his financial success outside of medicine, Christopher did not have to wait to make a change. In 2008, at the height of the financial crisis, he quit clinical medicine for good.

Although he was financially comfortable, Christopher knew that he wanted to do something that could really have an impact on the world with his next venture. Consulting struck a chord, and he decided that would be the best way to put his diverse expertise to work.

Click here to download the Free TRANSCRIPT

 

With a love of technology, Christopher positioned himself in the intersection between technology and medicine. His first role as a consultant was consulting for hospitals that were moving from paper to electronic records. He worked with physicians and nurses to get them up to speed with new systems and communicate their needs to the engineers building them.

However, as most hospitals have now ‘gone live' with electronic records systems, Christopher has pivoted. Now he primarily works with tech startups in the medical space. And he does individual or group executive and business strategy coaching.

Christopher has no regrets about leaving clinical practice. However, he does acknowledge that when he first started his consulting business he was working 100 hour weeks and traveling 11 months out of the year. But now he enjoys setting his own schedule and travels 6 to 7 months out of the year.

Becoming an Author

Once the dust had settled on his exit from clinical medicine, Christopher decided to write his autobiography. He wanted to communicate his experience to his colleagues, many of whom he knew were experiencing burnout and not reaching their full potential in clinical practice.

At first, he thought that one book would be it. But after seeing how many doctors struggled with navigating the transition out of clinical practice, and how to become financially stable, he decided to write a book about each.

His latest book, “The Physician’s Guide to Financial Freedom: Getting Started As A Consultant,” is the third in his series. With his books he hopes to reach people that may not be able to access his coaching services. He also wants to refute the idea that clinical practice is the only option for people with an MD. “1-2% of the opportunities for using an MD are in patient care. The other 98-99% are in how skilled a physician is in the entrepreneurial sense.”

“You invest 5-10 years to build your company, but then you’ll be free for the last 30-40 years of your life.”

Dr. Christopher H. Loo

Summary

With an entrepreneurial spirit and shrewd investments, Chris was able to make the transition out of clinical practice as soon as he recognized that it was not for him. However, for anyone who is not in that position, he recommends taking it slow and building financial freedom while you work to leave clinical practice.

“Start small… Gain your financial freedom so that it frees you up to pursue other avenues.”

Dr. Christopher H. Loo

Once you are ready to transition out of clinical practice, Christopher's key piece of advice is this: Be agile. The world is changing at an ever-faster pace and the ability to adapt and pivot will be crucial to success in the future.

If you're interested in pursuing a career in consulting, or if you are want to find out more about Christopher's coaching services, he generously offers a free 15-minute consultation with you.

---

Time is Running Out for BootCampMD!

If you want to learn more about building an email list, and how I’ve nurtured the PNC Hunters Facebook Group, please join me and other listeners at BootCampMD in Atlanta Georgia on October 4 through 6, 2019. That’s less than three weeks away at the time of this recording.

Join me and Mike Woo-Ming, Eric Tait, Maiysha Clairborne, and Nana Korsah – all successful entrepreneurs – to learn about starting your own part- or full-time business.

I’ll be there for the whole weekend, so we can meet and chat about anything related to nonclinical careers and burnout. In fact, I’m hosting a private meet-up with you and other listeners where we can meet and talk about career change, podcasting, and anything else on your mind.

But for that you must register here: vitalpe.net/bootcamp2.

Then send me an email at johnjurica@nonclinical.buzzmybrand.net so I can look you up at the conference.

Links for today's episode:

• Christoper's Email
• Christopher's Instagram
• Christopher's Book

---

Thanks to our sponsor…

Thanks to the UT Physician Executive MBA program for sponsoring the show. It’s an outstanding, highly rated, MBA program designed for working physicians. It might be just what you need to prepare for that joyful, well-paying career. You can find out more at vitalpe.net/physicianmba.

I hope to see you next time on the PNC Podcast.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

---

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton.

---

Disclaimers:

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life or business. 

Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. It should not be construed as medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counsellor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

---

Right click here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Here are the easiest ways to listen:

vitalpe.net/itunes  or vitalpe.net/stitcher  

The post How to Become a Popular Freelance Consultant – 108 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

This week's episode of the PNC Podcast is the last interview in our series of physician coaches that offers a systematic approach to achieving life and career success.

John speaks with Dr. Jattu Senesie, a physician coach who is also a member of the Physician Nonclinical Career Hunters Facebook Group. Jattu shares her story of leaving clinical practice, and offers fascinating insights into her coaching process.

Background

Jattu, like many physicians, began her love affair with medicine at a young age. A lifelong STEM fanatic, by the age of twelve she had already decided on a career as an OB/GYN.

With a clear goal in mind, she applied to every program and participated in every relevant group throughout high school and college to ensure that she got into the residency that she wanted.

A native of Washington, D.C., Jattu attended the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, for her pre-med before going on to medical school and her OBGYN residency at Emory University. Upon completing her residency, Jattu returned to D.C. to begin her private practice.

Searching for Satisfaction

Despite her lifelong interest in science and fetal physiology, and her belief that practicing medicine was the best way to actualize it, as soon as Jattu began her medical education she felt ill at ease.

“From the begninning of medical education, I was questioning whether this was going to be the right thing.”

Dr. Jattu Senesie

Despite that, Jattu pressed on with her studies, expecting to fail at some point if it wasn't meant to be. “Everyone always tells you, when you get to the next step it's going to be better.” So, Jattu held out hope, but each accomplishment left her feeling more disconnected from her reasons for getting into medicine than the last.

Her final hope was private practice. Jattu expected the autonomy it offered to allow for a greater level of connection with her patients. Unfortunately, as for so many doctors, this was not the case. “It ended up being even more of a grind.” The paperwork and bureaucracy meant that she had precious little time to make meaningful connections with her patients.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country, with over 650 graduates. Unlike other programs, which typically run 1 – 1/2 to 2 years, this program only takes a year to complete. And Economist Magazine recently ranked the business school #1 in the world for the Most Relevant Executive MBA.

University of Tennessee PEMBA students bring exceptional value to their organizations. While in the program, you'll participate in a company project, thereby contributing to your organization.

Graduates have taken leadership positions at major healthcare organizations. And they've become entrepreneurs and business owners.

By joining the University of Tennessee physician executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to advance your career. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office by calling (865) 974-6526 or go to vitalpe.net/physicianmba.

Burnout Strikes

Jattu, like many doctors before her, experienced burnout without really recognizing what it was. After passing her oral boards, she felt that something was missing, but could not articulate it. However, she realized that she was not happy and opted to take a 100-day sabbatical to reevaluate her situation.

“I made all the external changes that you would think would make things better.”

Dr. Jattu Senesie

After the sabbatical, Jattu reorganized her life in every way possible to alleviate her stress. “I made all the external changes that you would think would make things better.” For a little while, it worked. However, it was not long before the burnout returned and she made the difficult decision to quit. Her career success seemed impossible.

The post 5 Big Steps on the Path to Career Success – 104 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.