In this podcast episode, John brings Dr. Heather Fork back to the podcast to share her secrets for overcoming procrastination.

Dr. Heather Fork is an ICF master certified coach helping physicians find their best career path forward, whether in medicine, a nonclinical career, or something else. Heather is passionate about making it easier for physicians to navigate their careers.

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Procrastination: A Barrier to Success

In today’s interview, Heather helps us understand the root causes of procrastination. She describes how destructive it can be in keeping us from reaching our goals. It can be caused by simple disorganization, lack of planning skills, or deep-seated emotional barriers.

When trying to achieve any important task, procrastination can completely derail us. And the procrastination itself can be a source of negative self-recrimination.

Heather shares a model for thinking about procrastination. She breaks it down into three levels of tasks being avoided:

1. Small tasks that get overlooked because they are insignificant or non-urgent;
2. Mid-level tasks that require focus and planning that may take several steps;
3. Big, overwhelming projects that may be emotionally charged.

Strategies for Overcoming Procrastination

Here is a list of strategies to address procrastination, starting with the simplest:

1. Schedule 30 minutes to tackle a group of small non-urgent tasks in one sitting;
2. Set up rewards for yourself for completing an overdue task, or create a punishment if a deadline is not met;
3. Apply restrictions until a task is done (for example: if your delaying a drop off of clothing to Goodwill, restrict yourself from buying any new clothing until the old is dropped off);
4. Schedule procrastinated times on your calendar as an appointment;
5. Recruit an accountability partner to help you with your procrastination while you help them with theirs;
6. Spend time analyzing negative thoughts you have about a task, write them down, and reframe them more positively.

Bonus Strategy

Heather closes by describing how to use Artificial Intelligence (AI) to help you to eliminate this roadblock to your progress. Heather provides a detailed description of how she uses ChatGPT to help prevent or overcome procrastination.

You can use it to break down tasks into smaller steps, create schedules, and provide emotional support. You can start by going to ChatGPT.com and asking it to create a manageable plan for breaking down a large project into smaller steps, an outline for having a dreaded conversation, or ways to become more efficient, in general.

Summary

In this interview, Dr. Heatehr Fork draws on her years of coaching physicians to help us identify and understand procrastination, and implement some simple measures to overcome it.

Links for today's episode:

• Dr. Heather Fork's Doctor's Crossing Website
• The Doctor's Crossing Carpe Diem Podcast
• Recent interview on the Carpe Diem Podcast with Dr. John Jurica on the topic of Retirement
• ChatGPT
• Purchase Your All Action Pass Videos and Bonuses from the 2024 Summit (Use Coupon Code 30-OFF)
• The Nonclinical Career Academy

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 377
Secrets to Beating the Top 3 Categories of Procrastination - Interview with Dr. Heather Fork

John: Well, I'm very pleased to have today's guest back again. She's been here before. I think we both think it's been three, although I didn't go back and count, so awesome. I'm glad she's back for another episode of the podcast. She's been an awesome source of support and advice for struggling physicians with their careers for many years. Many of you should already know her very well. She's a well-known coach and an expert on resume writing and LinkedIn, using LinkedIn. So she has courses on those that you should take advantage of. And what they represent to me, like some of those things that we need to know when we're getting into this whole idea of maybe moving to even if it's a new clinical or a nonclinical position, you're going to need a resume. You're going to need a LinkedIn and tons of other things to prepare for it. And one of the things we're going to talk about today that really has a big impact on your moving forward or not. So with that, I will stop and say hello to Dr. Heather Fork. Welcome back.

Dr. Heather Fork: Hi, Dr. John Jurica. It is an honor to be back on the podcast. And actually the week that we're recording this, the podcast that you did with me on The Doctor's Crossing Carpe Diem Podcast is out this week, and it's all about part-time opportunities for those of you who are thinking of slowing down nearing retirement. But all of those things can be good for anyone at any age and stage, and I really thank you so much for coming on and doing that with me.

John: Oh, it was fun. And, this is a few weeks later, of course, by the time this gets posted, but I will put a link in the show notes. So I would recommend if you want to hear more of Heather and myself talking, then you can listen, especially in that one with a lot of ideas if you're getting near retirement. So you've come on before and you've talked about what you do, and by the way, we're on a first name basis, of course, Heather and John. So, what I want to know is what has happened, if anything new or if you've shifted gears in any way in the last couple of years, and just also mention just all the things that you do so for those that haven't heard you before, they'll get a better understanding.

Dr. Heather Fork: Oh, thanks, John. Well, my job keeps me out of trouble. I love it very much. I get to help physicians at the crossroads, and that can be through the podcast, the Doctor's Crossing Carpe Diem Podcast. I also do coaching. So I have a one-on-one coaching program, but I also offer one-off consultation. So if you just would like some perspective on your career, but you don't necessarily need a program, you can inquire about scheduling a paid consultation for an hour on Zoom. I also have, as you mentioned, the LinkedIn course, the resume kit, and a bunch of freebies on my website. So if you just go to the doctor'scrossing.com website, and it's a freebie tab, there's a bunch of different PDFs you can download.

John: Excellent. So again, there'll be links to the website and those other things at the end here. But before we get there, then I want to bring up this topic that we're going to be talking about, because it is a barrier to moving forward if you're frustrated, if you're burnt out, whatever it might be. There's a lot of reasons to change what you're doing. And this is like a basic one, and it's extremely common, and it's not just when it comes to career change. And so, I want to hear Heather deals with this and coaches people about this particular problem, and the problem is in procrastinating. So this is going to be fun, and we're going to get some tips and how to think about it. So, do you think this is, where does this rank in terms of things that hold people back?

Dr. Heather Fork: Oh, John, I think it's enormous. Absolutely. It's enormous. And it can have minor consequences. For example, if you want to take some clothes to Goodwill and clean out your closet, well, if you delay that, like who's really harmed by that?

John: It's true.

Dr. Heather Fork: Nobody, seriously. And at the other end of the spectrum if you, for example, delay seeing a doctor, we all know, because this is what we do, that this can have really serious, even life threatening consequences. And it makes me think of when I was a resident in dermatology at the VA in Miami, there was a patient who came in and he literally looked like he had a brand muffin stuck on his forehead. It was just this huge brown glob that looked like a brown muffin on his forehead, and it turned out to be a basal-cell carcinoma. And I asked him, "What made you decide to come in now? Why did you wait?" And he goes, "Well, it's been there for decades. And I just, I got sober." And he came in.

And this story in some ways, I think explains some of the complexity across the nation, because there can be things going on just with your personal life. It can be fear, such as, I see this thing's growing on my forehead. It could be a cancer, but I don't really want to know it's a cancer, so I'm just going to pretend it's not there. And it can be the problem of, well, who do I call? I need to make an appointment and getting to the appointment. Maybe I don't have transportation. So I like this topic of procrastination because it's actually fairly complex and there's not a one size fits all answer. So there's a lot we can talk about and hopefully give people some help for whatever they're dealing with.

John: Is there a way that you think about procrastination, or well, just tell us when it comes up as being an issue for maybe some of your coaching or even in your own life, how would you start trying to compensate for that or overcome that?

Dr. Heather Fork: Well, I recently came up with a framework because I've been listening to a lot of podcasts on procrastination, reading about it, I did a podcast myself on it. And the basic gist of that podcast was that it's not that you're lazy, that you're procrastinating, there's some kind of underlying internal conflict. So that's often there, but doesn't explain all types of procrastination. So to try to capture more the breadth and depth, the procrastination, I came up with my three different types. You ask yourself this question, is it a mouse, a monkey, or an elephant that I'm procrastinating on?

John: Interesting. Okay. Well, that helps us remember the three, but I have no idea what the three things relate to. So, go ahead and tell us how does that help us break this down?

Dr. Heather Fork: Absolutely. So, well, let's start, let me just ask you, John, first is, what's something that you may procrastinate on? And we'll see maybe what category it fits in.

John: Well, the thing that I think about when I'm thinking about procrastinating is I hate to talk on the telephone. So it affects every part of my life. For example, I try to stay in touch with my children. One's married, one's not married. I mean, my three step kids are married and I hate calling them. I just don't like getting on the phone. So I will procrastinate on that knowing that, gosh, they're going to think I'm not thinking about that. That's one side. The other side is like, as let's say the medical director for the urgent care center, some things come up, behavioral issues come up with the PAs or the NPs, or potential, maybe complaint or something, who knows.

And so then I'm talking to the CEO or to one of the managers and they say, "Well, could you call this person and talk to them?" I'm like, "Yeah, certainly that's something I should do." And I just dread it. And I don't dread it because I'm afraid of it. I just don't like being on the phone talking. And so I have to try and come up with a way to put a deadline, like I have to do this by this date or I'm just not going to do anything else. So those are the two types of things, but to me, that's one sort of minor in a way. And one big one, or maybe they're both big.

Dr. Heather Fork: All right. So those are really great examples about really not liking to talk on the phone. And it affects different parts of your life, and certainly too, if you have to have a bit of a challenging conversation. So we'll go through the mouse, the monkey, and the elephant, and we'll see where you feel like it fits in. And we'll also look at strategies to address each of these. And then just procrastination in general. So the mouse, as the name implies, is like, it's a small sort of issue that you're procrastinating on. It's not big like an elephant, it's annoying. Maybe it squeaks at you sometimes, but often it just screws away and hides and it's off the radar, so you don't really deal with it.

So some examples of things that could be in the mice category would be making a doctor or a dentist appointment, hanging up or framing a picture in your house, sending an email, making a phone call, paying a bill, returning an item to the store or to Amazon. These don't tend to be things that have a lot of underlying emotional content to them. They're just sort of nuisancy things. So that's in the mouse category.

John: Okay.

Dr. Heather Fork: Do you think either of those things are in the mouse category?

John: The way I laid it out, I made it sound like calling my daughter, for example, was on the mouse, but it really isn't because that's one of the most important things in my life or my relationship with my kids. Yeah. So I don't think that either of those are mouse categories now that I think of it.

Dr. Heather Fork: Okay. Good. Okay. So let's go on to the next category, which is the monkey category. So monkeys, obviously, they're bigger than mice, they're smaller than elephant, and they jump around and they're curious, they're wily, they can have a sense of humor and be pesky. So there's a lot of nuance to monkeys. So some examples of what might be a monkey is preparing a presentation, a talk that you have to do, decluttering your closets, going through piles of paper or stuff that's in the garage, or attic. It might be planning a vacation. So it could even be something positive, but you might feel like, oh, I can't leave my practice. I don't get paid when I am away and I don't know where I want to go.

So it can even be fun things we procrastinate on. It could be finding the right help, that might be a house cleaner, a therapist, a tutor, a handyman, or a doctor for yourself, for your child, could even be doing a hobby or interest that you enjoy, maybe playing that banjo like you do you play your banjo. Maybe it's being neglected. Doing artwork, writing, learning a language. So these are bigger things and they may be bit more thought and emotion that comes up when we try to address them.

John: Yeah, that's definitely, those are much bigger than some of the more trivial mouse type things. I'm thinking that for me, actually, as you were talking, I'm thinking both of the ones I mentioned are probably in this category, because I think the elephant category is going to be really, really a critical big thing. So I'm thinking these are both things, although maybe the not talking to the employee in a timely manner can become an elephant thing. Because if I let it go too long, then it's definitely going to have a consequence. So that one might be on the edge.

Dr. Heather Fork: Right. Absolutely. So they do sound like monkeys, and so they require some more focus, they require more planning, and you may have to do a little internal inquiry to understand why the procrastination is happening.

John: Absolutely. Yeah, which makes me want to think of what an elephant one will be for me. So, well, let me hear you tell us about the elephant.

Dr. Heather Fork: Okay.

John: Unless you have other examples you want to give on that one.

Dr. Heather Fork: No, sure. I think it's a great time to go onto the elephant. So obviously elephants are big and we often talk about, oh, the elephant in the room, the thing we don't really want to address, but it's there and it's big and it's looming. And so these are often tasks, or goals that are emotionally charged, and they can feel daunting and they can create a lot of avoidance and have pretty serious consequences because they are more major things in our life. So, for example, for listeners out here that could be addressing your career situation, I often talk to physicians who've said, well, I've often talked to physicians who say, oh, I've been listening to your podcast for two years, three years, four years, and they're very unhappy, but they still haven't made any changes. And so might be like, well, if your happiness is a 3 out of a 10, what's happening? Because it's obviously a serious situation.

It could also be something like creating an online course. I know definitely procrastinating on those things, writing a book. It might be addressing a significant relationship issue. Maybe you're feeling that your marriage is in trouble, but it just, you can't even just imagine thinking, unpacking all that. Or maybe you want to meet somebody. You want to meet your soulmate, but when you think about getting out there on the internet and doing online dating, you just shut everything down because that sounds really scary and potentially hurtful to yourself. Rejection is definitely a reason to stay safe. So often when we want to keep ourselves safe, we stay stuck. Could also be taking on a personal challenge such as an exercise program or weight loss program, can be addressing your finances, looking at debt, looking at your budget, looking at how you are spending your money. If you have enough retirement, you may not want to peak and see, oh my God, this means I have to work another 10 years.

John: Yeah. I remember talking to a lot of people, I don't do coaching like you do, but I've had several mastermind groups and this thing comes up all the time. It's sort of like, we've been talking about a certain issue. They all want to do something different. I mean, that's why they were in the mastermind and yet they might come back month after month after month as come together as a group and they may have had things they were supposed to work on, are they committed to working on. And really were making zero progress in spite of having been given a lot of good suggestions and encouragement and so forth. In a mastermind type situation, you don't necessarily get to the root cause of it.

You're hoping that just by interacting and having that accountability that they'll take the bull by the horns and move forward. But it's pretty common. And I would say for me, and this probably maybe affects a lot of people that are getting right at the point of retirement, yeah, I've definitely retired from seeing patients face to face. But it's the financial. We had a plan for while we were working and we were saving money, but then, do I really know, this came up for me this week actually, do I really know whether and how I'm going to now start to access those funds that I've put away? Do I need to change the way I'm managing them? I'm putting them? It's a whole different thing. And I've definitely been putting that off for months, if not years, so I can fall into that category of type of procrastination.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yeah. And so when we look at strategies to deal with procrastination, it's obvious just from the conversation we've had that different strategies are going to be better for the mice, the monkey or the elephant. Some will apply to all of them, some may be helpful to you, but not to me. And sometimes something works one day for us and the next day we're like a stubborn petulant child and nothing will work.

John: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm interested in hearing what types of, approaches we can take for the various levels of procrastination. And then maybe I can apply one of those to the areas that I'm procrastinating in right now.

Dr. Heather Fork: Okay. Well, I like to think about this as a continuum. So for things that are more like mice, we can use some of the simpler ones. And then as we get into the elephant, we're going to involve some more complex things that really deal with emotions and the conflict that's going on. But some of the simpler ones could also apply for the big ones. So it's really just a smorgasbord. And you get to pick and choose because like anything that's challenging, just like a disease that's challenging, we often have a lot of different therapies that we may use because there's no one thing that actually wipes it out.

All right. So let's start very simply. Like number one could be just make a list. And I have a whiteboard in my kitchen and I have different quadrants on it where I put something like the easy ones, like the mice will be up in the top right corner. And I like to batch my mice. So if you've heard that term, batching, just like, instead of making like one cookie, you make a batch of cookies, it's just easier. So with batching your procrastination mice, you just say, okay, there are these five things I'm going to do and I'll do them all at one time. So batching works really well for mice, but making a list can work for any of these things. And I think so many of us as physicians, we're big list makers and we like to cross things off. And sometimes we'll even add something on that we already did, just so we can get the dopamine hit of crossing it off.

John: Sometimes if you have those lists and you've been crossing them off, I don't keep my list, but some people do. And it's like, if you keep those cards or even while your whiteboard's going to run out of space. But sometimes looking back and saying, holy macro, I actually did so much this week or this month, it's incredible. But it's just everybody has a lot of little things they have to do and definitely don't want to put them off too long.

Dr. Heather Fork: Right. And we always hear about when you set goals, you need to set a deadline. So it's good to have some type of timeframe that you want to achieve this goal by. If it's something like making a dentist appointment, well, it could just be, okay, by Saturday I will have done this by the end of the week. If it's preparing a presentation, then you might say, okay, I'm going to do this by the end of the month. I need to change my career, you might give yourself one year or two years, you might say, by six months I want to have narrowed down my options. So you adjust the timeframe to what's appropriate.

And it's also helpful to let somebody know. So this is where accountability can come in. And some days this works, sometimes it doesn't. I know I've definitely told Katie, my assistant, okay, I'm going to have this to you by this date. And then if not, I've even said, "All right, I'm paying you $100."

John: Oh, wow.

Dr. Heather Fork: Well, I hate to admit it, but I said, like, certain date, I was going to get so many videos done and I didn't get them done, and then I paid her $100. So sometimes these things work and sometimes they don't, but they can help you get closer to your goal even if you don't quite make it.

John: That's a good one. Putting some money attached to it. There'll be different ways that you could do that. I was just thinking of something else that I procrastinate on and I've got to figure out which category it's in and what kind of technique I can use. I do editing of manuscripts for CME. I've mentioned this to listeners before. I've been doing that for 20 years but they arrive randomly in my house. And I don't really set aside any particular, there's not a regular schedule. And so sometimes I'll get them done within a week or two, and other times I'm looking at, it's like, oh my gosh, it's already been four weeks. And so it goes from maybe something that's relatively minor to something that can get really serious because the longer it waits, there's somebody there waiting for that to be published.

Dr. Heather Fork: Right.

John: So I have to use a combination, I think of these methods to tackle that one.

Dr. Heather Fork: It's absolutely true. And I think one of the challenges we have as physicians is that when we think about our training, we've done all the things that are hard in terms of why people procrastinate. Like people procrastinate because they don't want to feel incompetent. They are perfectionist or they don't like uncertainty or they don't really want to put all the effort in. But in our training, we had to do all these things, work hard, be accountable, show up when we're tired. We had to take our tests when the tests were scheduled. There were a lot of negative consequences for procrastinating. And so we were in a container. And that often works well when someone else is putting in the deadlines and there are these adverse consequences. But then when we get out sort of free, we're free people floating around and we have to put those restraints and guardrails and deadlines and accountabilities in for ourselves. It's harder. So it's almost like, that muscle of personal accountability got weak because we had so much external accountability.

John: One of the things I did when I was working as CMO, and it was a little easier because that was a very structured environment and there were certain things I didn't look forward to doing. But I would just put it on my, I would have my assistant put it on my schedule and that time was blocked only to do that thing. Not that it was due that day, but that I had blocked the time out so that I couldn't the next day or a week later, say I didn't have time to do it because it was on the schedule.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yes, John. And you must have ESP or you read my notes or something. Because one of the strategies is to do what I call schedule to a time. So I had a friend when I was growing up, Jenny McLaren, and she had this sign in her room, we were like 12. And it said, "I'll do it when I get around to it." And it was TUIT. So I used that recently because there was this dress I wanted to post on Facebook marketplace to resell, but I've been procrastinating on it so much that it was a spring dress and now it's fall and I hadn't done it. So I said, I'm putting to a time on my calendar, and it was going to be one hour to do all these mice. And the interesting thing is, once I had that to a time scheduled a couple days before, I just did the things, I did my mice. And it was, yeah, there was something about knowing how time set aside that I wanted to beat the clock. And I just, and this thing I've been procrastinating on for half a year, I just did it. So that's to a time.

John: Keep going. We got a lot to learn here.

Dr. Heather Fork: So another one is use a reward or restriction approach or and/or. And so when I wanted to get this dress on Facebook Marketplace, because I bought it, and when I thought I'd look great in it, but I looked like I should be on the set for a little house on the Prairie. It wasn't the western cowgirl look I was going for. But I just dragged my feet. And so I said to myself, you can't buy anything new until you put this dress on. And I'm not a huge shopper, but I like going to Marshall's and just finding a little treasure here and there. And so I said, okay, and you can't buy anything new. Well, for months I didn't buy anything new. I think I just get it up there but I didn't. So then, that was a restriction.

So the reward could be, I can get to get something. So you can reward yourself. And I think, that's really helpful. Sometimes just accomplishing it is reward enough, but if there's something like, hey, you want to go out to dinner with your friend or your spouse, or you'd like to make a small purchase, or you'd like to set aside like a fun day or get a massage, use a reward. But restrictions are important too. Like, hmm, sorry, you can't do X, Y, Z until you get this accomplished. We're used to the punitive approach I think as doctors.

John: I'm going to have to think of how I can punish myself if I can stay on track, I got to make sure it'll be something I will hold myself to though if I do that. But that's a good one. Or reward. I mean, rewards sometimes even work better if it's something you've really put off for a long time and wanted to do or have or use.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yeah. And so getting to the more complex issues like the elephants, and we can use this for your situation, is to really dig deep and understand what is the internal conflict that's going on. Because I think for so many of the things that we, as physicians, especially at the crossroads struggle with in procrastination, there's internal conflict under theirs, which is, I want to change my job, but I have these fears. So it's usually addressing the things that we're concerned about or we just have issues with. So in your situation with not liking to be on the phone, what's that about? Like, can you tell us a little bit more about that?

John: Oh, let's see. I can try. Number one, I'm an introvert. I'm not an outgoing person. I don't get thrilled by being with people. I feel most comfortable and actually most powerful when I'm by myself doing something and recharging, that usual introvert extrovert thing. So that's part of it. I'm a people pleaser. So if this phone call involves trying to have a difficult conversation with someone, they might take it a certain way. So I don't want to hurt their feelings, but any good manager or director or spouse or whatever needs to be able to have those uncomfortable conversations. But I think that's part of it. I suppose things like not like fearing the pushback or the negativity coming back at me, if it's, again, a difficult conversation. I guess those are some examples of why, that internal conversation that's going on before I make a phone call or whether I even realize it or not.

Dr. Heather Fork: On a scale of 0 to 10, John, with 10 being I really don't like talking on the phone phone and 0 being, oh, I'm fine with it, how much do you dislike talking on the phone?

John: I dislike it? Well, I would say about a seven, seven or eight. Right now, if I look on my phone, I have a weekly reminder to call my daughter. Now, I don't really plan to call her every week. But I put it on there weekly because then at some point I'm going to see it and then I'm going to do it. But if it wasn't on there, I might just put it out. So, yeah. So I mean, I just, I don't know again exactly the why so much, but that's the scale. Yeah. It's fairly, it's just when I'm on the phone and I'm already engaged, it's not a big deal. It's just the act of initiating it and just doing it. Getting it going.

Dr. Heather Fork: Well, you make a really good point there that often the biggest barrier is that first step and makes me think of this quote, "The heaviest weight at the gym is the front door." I love that. "The heaviest weight at the gym is the front door." So, like you said, initiating the phone call is the hardest part. And that's true for so many things we procrastinate on, which is another clue as to a great strategy, which is make that first step a baby step. For example, if you're trying to write a book, write a sentence, or if you're having trouble looking at your finances, the first step is to just gather the information. So if you think about what you procrastinate on, say what's the lowest barrier of entry? What's that door at the gym, if I can just get in that door, I'll be okay and start there.

Don't think of all the billion things that you have to do. Like if you say you are in a difficult relationship, and every time you think about a addressing that, it's like, oh my God, the kids, the money, the house, so this and that, that's paralyzing. But if you said, the first thing I might do is I just might talk to a friend or I just might write down why I need to do this, why this is bothering me, and just something simple. And then don't think any further than that.

John: It'll help break it down.

Dr. Heather Fork: Break it down.

John: And lower that barrier.

Dr. Heather Fork: So I know we're getting close to time here, but I do want to mention, in addition to finding your why, which is something we just talked about, that's important to just look at why accomplishing this goal is important to you. What will it do for you? How could it change your life? And if you look back in one week, one month, one year, five years, what will be different? Will that be worth it? That can be motivating. But this next thing that I want to mention to me is game changing. It can be life changing. Do you know what this next one, can you guess what it is? It's a great new resource.

John: No, just tell us.

Dr. Heather Fork: Okay. Okay. Using artificial intelligence, so ChatGPT.

John: All right. Now, how on earth is that going to help us with procrastination?

Dr. Heather Fork: It's phenomenal because so many of the things we procrastinate on, not so much the mice, but the monkey and the elephant, the monkeys and the elephants. If we say, okay, Chat, I need to address my finances. This is my situation. These are my student loan debts, this is what I'm doing for investment. I don't have a financial advisor. First you go on to ChatGPT, it's free. So just get on there and then chat. It's like having a conversation with a super smart, empathetic, compassionate person who thinks in seconds, incredibly fast. So then you just type in whatever your situation is. And then say, "Can you give me a strategy or a plan or steps to start addressing this?" And then as soon as you press enter, you count to three seconds and you have your answer there. Whatever it is.

Say you need to do a talk on something, just still chat what the talk is about and say, "Can you make 20 slides for me? Or can you make an outline?" Or if you have to, let's say career change. I did a whole podcast on using ChatGPT to help you with looking at your career. And that can be from, help me understand what nonclinical options are chat. Or help me convert my CV to a resume. Help me understand better what to put in my summary on LinkedIn. And the cool thing is chat is also like a Dear Abby, so you could even say this. So maybe try this, John, say, "I'm introverted. I don't really like docking on the phone, but I have to have these conversations. And sometimes they're where I have to give some constructive feedback and it's challenging for me, can you help me out with this?"

And chat will give you an answer. And the neat thing is, is this is a conversation. So it's not like Google where you Google something, you get an answer and you're done. But then you can follow up and say, "All right, chat. Well, that's awful. But what I really have trouble with is when I'm afraid that person's going to be mad at me. That I'm going to hurt their feelings. Can you help me with this?" And whenever I use ChatGPT with my clients and they have something they're trying to address and I show them online how to use it, all of us have the same response. Our jaw drops every single time. People are like, "Oh my God." And they usually just start laughing and can't stop because it really is mind blowing.

John: No, that's very interesting. You telling me that, yeah, my barrier to asking ChatGPT something which I don't use routinely, but would be zero. I mean, it's an inanimate thing. I can ask it. Because I Google things all the time and to me that's yeah, it's just a step beyond that. So no, that's interesting. In fact, I should probably just use that for a lot of other things. Just like to get ideas. But particularly whether it's with procrastinating or with creating something or with doing something else, it sounds like, yeah, I've never actually sat down and used it.

Dr. Heather Fork: Okay. Well, tonight, promise me tonight, John, and any one of you listening out there, whatever it is you're struggling with. And like I said, it can be a logistical thing, a practical thing. It can be emotional, psychological. It can be like I have, you might say, well, I'm dealing with loss of self-respect because I've been procrastinating so much on this and I just feel bad about myself. I'm telling you, Chats worth the best paid therapist, really, like you can get really great therapy for free.

John: All right. Well, this is how much of a novice I am. So would I just go to chat gpt.com or how do I access it?

Dr. Heather Fork: Yeah, you can go to chatgpt.com. It's also called Open AI, but go to Chat, G as in George, P as in Paul, T as in Tom. And then there's a free version 3.5. The pay version is 4.0 and it's $20 a month. I use the paid one because if you do so many searches or queries, you run out of time, you run out of searches basically. But I would start with the free version and it's just a prompt. There's a space, like a search bar that you just put in the prompt and you can also set up your computer where you can just speak. For me, I press like Ctrl twice and then my microphone comes on and I just talk to chat. I explain the situation, what I'm dealing with, and I say help me out.

John: Nice. That is awesome. Well, that's a great bit of advice in addition to everything else. Thank you for that.

Dr. Heather Fork: Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. I'd say, that may be one of the most powerful anti-procrastination device that we have so far. So please check it out.

John: All right. This has been awesome. Anything we didn't hit on that you think we need to know about or other ideas for addressing this problem? If not, feel free to tell us again about where we can reach you.

Dr. Heather Fork: Oh, absolutely, John. So I think just to summarize look at whether it's the mouse, the monkey, or the elephant. And then there's so many different ways that you can use to help in terms of strategies such as making a list, having a whiteboard, setting a goal, getting accountability, putting something on a calendar like your to a time. When you're going to actually do these things. Get somebody to be an accountability partner. Look at your why, why it's important to you. Break it down in steps. Lower the barrier of entry to that first step. Do a really mini baby step.

Reframe your fears. Like if there's things that you're worried about, like your income going down, have you changed careers? Try to reframe that and say, well, I can look into options. I know other doctors do this. They're actually jobs where people make more. So I didn't really talk much about reframing the fears, but that's a big part. And that's mostly what I talk about too in my podcast that I did on procrastination. So yes, doctor'scrossing.com is where you can find me and I'd love to help anybody. I'd like to reach out.

John: Well, I am always amazed when I have you here on the podcast, Heather. I guess you always come up with some outstanding topics and issues and solutions and you're just such an experienced coach. So I mean, I really appreciate you. Not only have you helped a lot of physicians working their way through their careers and so forth over the years, but we've known each other for a long time and I really feel like I've gotten a lot of support from you as well. So I do appreciate you and I advise everyone particularly, I mean, if you think you might need coaching, I like the idea of a one-off. If you just want to get a sense of what the coaching would be like. A lot of us have never actually been coached.

And so we don't really know what coaching is. We think it's like someone's going to tell us what to do and I suspect it's not that at all. And so you might just do the one hour, but anyway you have so many things available on your website and the big ones that, like I mentioned earlier, that I find so useful are those pertain to the resume and the LinkedIn because they're so practical. But obviously there's a whole lot more than just that to making a major change in your life, whether it's your career or something else. So thanks again for being here today.

Dr. Heather Fork: And thank you, John. I'm a huge fan of yours. I recommend your podcast all the time and the courses and the summits that you offer and that's why you've been on my podcast multiple times and people really enjoy your episodes and get a lot out of them. So thank you so much. I'm a big fan.

John: You're welcome. So with that, I will say goodbye and maybe we'll see you back here on the podcast again down the road.

Dr. Heather Fork: All right. Well, thanks again, John.

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The post Secrets to Beating the Top 3 Categories of Procrastination appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In this podcast episode, Dr. Tod Stillson explains more about the benefits of a professional corporation and the steps to take in forming one.

This week we build upon our previous discussion where he introduced the concept of employment light and shared his journey from traditional employment to independent contracting. 

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Making the Transition Without Rocking the Boat

Our first episode focused on how doctors can win as a micro-corporation and negotiate better contracts. Part 2 reveals practical strategies for a seamless transition and income diversification through professional incorporation.

The beauty of transitioning to a professional corporation lies in its seamlessness. As Dr. Stillson explains you can maintain your regular clinical presence while restructuring your business model behind the scenes. He continued wearing the same lab coat, attending medical executive meetings, and maintaining hospital relationships – but with one significant difference: a $200,000 increase in compensation.

You don't need to shout it from the mountaintops… You just need to ask for it very quietly. – Dr. Tod Stillson

The key is creating a win-win situation where your hospital isn't paying more, but you receive fair market value for their services through a more powerful business structure.

Benefits of a Professional Corporation and Income Diversification

The medical landscape is evolving, and with it, new opportunities for income diversification are emerging. Today's physicians are exploring:

• “Job stacking” – strategically combining part-time positions
• Direct primary care models
• Telehealth and “practice without walls” concepts
• Multiple revenue streams from different medical services

Dr. Stillson successfully monetized various aspects of his practice, from clinic work to sports medicine coverage, ultimately creating multiple distinct income streams. This approach not only increases financial stability but also provides greater professional autonomy.

Summary

For those ready to dive deeper into professional corporations, you can find Dr. Stillson's comprehensive guide Doctor Incorporated: Stop the Insanity of Traditional Employment and Preserve Your Professional Autonomy on Amazon. His website offers both free resources and paid courses to help you navigate this transition. As part of his commitment to helping physicians thrive, Dr. Stillson also offers a free eBook titled 20 Reasons Every Resident Should Start a Corporation During Their Residency. 

Links for today's episode:

• Part 1 of this conversation can be found at Now Every Doctor Can Win As a Micro-Corporation
• Dr. Tod Stillson's Website SimpliMD.com
• Free Subscription: Subscribe to the SimpliMD Blog.
• Dr. Tod Stillson's Book: Doctor Incorporated: Stop the Insanity of Traditional Employment and Preserve Your Professional Autonomy
• Employment Lite: Check out our Employment Lite landing page on why this hybrid model of employment and private practice is so appealing to many doctors.
• Free E-Books: Choose from a large menu of free E-Books that support your micro-business journey as a self-employed doctor.
• Professional Business Network: Our vetted and preferred network of small business professionals and resources that will support your professional micro-corporation journey.
• How to Save Healthcare, Satisfy Patients, and Fix Physician Burnout – 256
• Check out the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit to learn about MORE unconventional career options.

Paid Resources from SimpliMD:

• $199 Course: Creating A Practice Without Walls.
• $99 Consultation: 1:1 Micro-Business Consultation.
• $500 Micro-Corporation Start: A Business Consultation + Connection to Legal Professionals to Start Your Professional Micro-Corporation.
• $99 ($10 for residents) SimpliMD Membership: Join our community of self-employed doctors and receive exclusive perks for members only
• $2000 SimpliMD Coaching: 1:1 holistic coaching with a small business focus.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 375

More On The Benefits of a Professional Corporation

- Interview with Dr. Tod Stillson Part 2

Dr. Tod Stillson: And I'll say back in the day when I did this tenure over a decade ago, John, my simple goal was to let everybody in the community, including my own peers, have no idea that it was happening. In other words, I still wore all the same lab coat. I still wore all the branding of the hospital. I still did every bit of work that I was doing. It really looked like no different. I still even went to the medical exec meetings, the staff meetings. I participated. I was very willing to participate. On many levels, it looked like I was doing exactly the same thing.

But behind the scenes, the business model was dramatically different. And that's what was empowering in terms of my autonomy and in terms of my taxes and really the financial side of the equation, as I mentioned. And when I made that transition, I got a $200,000 raise just by making that transition. And so an amazing amount of money. But the point is, is that I wanted to do it seamlessly. And that's how I encourage most doctors to do it.

You don't need to shout it from the mountaintops. You just need to actually to make it the most win-win. You just ask for it very quietly, okay? And for the hospital, they're not paying you more in this system. In other words, you're not asking for a raise. Now, you're listening to me go, wait a second, you said you got paid $200,000 more. Well, I did. And that's because their stupid employee contract was a stupid employee contract that wasn't paying doctors fairly, okay? I just was now getting paid fairly for what I was worth in the marketplace. And it's that simple.

So that's not more, that's just fair, right? And that's important for a hospital. I see it in that way. I have plenty of hospitals that also pay doctors in employment-like contracts on salaries too. It doesn't have to be productivity-based. There's all sorts of PSA structures that a doctor can use that makes sense for them if they prefer that. But the point is make it win-win.

John: Excellent. Now, I don't know if you mentioned this earlier or I heard it somewhere else in hearing about your background in that.

So if you're currently employed and you have a non-compete, does that itself become a barrier in any way? Or do you still have a non-compete under your professional incorporation?

Dr. Tod Stillson: It's all about the negotiation. One of the elements that the hospital wanted to put in place with my new PSA contract when I made that conversion, they wanted to put a non-compete in that basically was non-compete in the essential services the hospital was performing while I was engaged in the contract. It didn't have a one year or a 30 day or 90 day, one year, two year wraparound non-compete around it. It was just literally during while the contract was in place. That was all about negotiation. So the point is, it's all about what you want to negotiate.

So if you convert it over and if they're like we had a one year non-compete when you were an employee. We want to have a one year non-compete in this employment-like contract. If you're okay with that, they're okay with that. But it's also a point in time where as an independent contractor, you might say, well, let's negotiate that down. Okay. Let's take that down to three months, six months, eliminate it altogether.

And as your listeners know, this is something that's a hot topic in medicine anyway, right now that it may get eliminated federally all across the board, or at least get put back into the state's hands. And there's just a whole bunch of stuff going on in that context. But the answer is, this is an opportunity when you reformulate a contract to determine the exact terms of it.

I'll bring this point up again to your audience. This is the point where I did what I would recommend them to do. I hired a lawyer who understand healthcare contracts, who negotiated and worked on my behalf. And that was one of the smartest moves I made. And one of the best return on investments that I ever made when it came to this, because they knew and understood things. And they could speak the language, but the hospital lawyers that they needed to hear and communicate it in a way that was best for me.

So when you try and negotiate it yourself, you're not going to typically beat the hospital layers. Okay. You aren't. No matter how kind they seem to be to you, they-

John: They're smiling all the way.

Dr. Tod Stillson: They are smiling all the way. And that's because they're going to kind of, because of information asymmetry, oftentimes, they're going to list that contract more towards them. That's their job. That's who they represent, then towards you. So don't be afraid to hire a contract review or negotiation lawyer. We have them as SimpliMD people that we work with. And so that's another take home message for your audience.

John: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Because I get that question occasionally, it comes up, do I need an attorney to do this or that? And actually, when I close out each podcast episode, I say, get an attorney, get an accountant, do these things. And it's just, I mean, it's not cheap, but it's worth it. You're going to end up just being in a much better position if you really have someone who knows what they're doing, advising you and maybe even creating the documents.

Dr. Tod Stillson: That's exactly right. And I'll say when you do it like I've done as a micro corporation so my own PC professional corporation, that's a business expense. So it's not even coming out, unlike when you're traditionally employed, all these things come out of your personal pocket, right? So that's post-tax dollars. And it's feels a whole lot better spending on professional services when you're using pre-tax dollars to spend on those professional services.

John: Now, are there some other things I think, because you've written a lot on this topic, other things that you can think of just offhand that using this new model for yourself, that it enabled you to do that did end up, ultimately, basically diversifying your income or assets. Let's put it that way.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Yeah. So what's your question specifically?

John: So when you've switched to this model of interacting and creating your own micro business, there's other things you can do with it.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Oh, I see. Yeah. Got you.

John: Yeah, that are beneficial.

Dr. Tod Stillson: So first of all, it's about diversifying your income channels. And so then anytime you as a professional can diversify your income channels, the better off you're going to be. Now, a traditional employee, professionally, most of their work is being done with that one prime employer, right? So that's one income channel.

And there's doctors that do side work. They can do 1099 side hustles. Like I said, 40%, 50% of doctors will do that. And so you can have those. That's a good example of just professional income diversification, right? In today's world of younger doctors that I talk to all the time, we call this job stacking. The younger doctor, the younger population call that job stacking. And in today's world of job stacking is really cool, John, because Kate, for you and I, we grew up in this mentality of like, you work for one part, one employer, one job, one income. You're kind of, we're all in, in one place.

And that's just how you did it. And there's a lot of loyalty involved in a lot of these things because they are intertwined in that. But younger doctors don't have that same amount of loyalty. They're smartly, they don't have as much loyalty. They think about lifestyle. So what they do, their end point is not just setting down in a community and working a job for 40 years. Okay. Their goal is a certain lifestyle that they're going to then do the backwards math of saying, what number of jobs that I need to take on that will give me the lifestyle that I want to live and the income that I want to have to connect the dots to that process.

So younger doctors are not uncommon for them to not have a 1.0 full-time job with somebody. It's for them to take on a 0.5, a 0.6, a 0.7 full-time equivalent, and then take the extra time they have and stack in other professional income or non-professional income sources. So they can use their time wisely to create income channels that are not reliant on one big source, but reliant on multiple sources. That allows them to then pick and choose the levers moving forward of how they want to increase or decrease when depending on how it's going to still meet the lifestyle they desire.

Okay. So that's called job stacking and younger doctors will get that. And they are doing that more and more. I don't have to remind your listeners this, that more than, it's actually a little bit more than half of doctors now in training are women as opposed to men, and women in medicine, not to say they can't be full-fledged all in. But we see more and more women not wanting to work 1.0 full-time jobs because they've put off having kids and then they're going to start their family. And they do want to sit down in that a little bit more.

So we're seeing a lot more employers offering 0.5, 0.6, 0.7 FTE positions because you have to for the workforce, especially the women, but even for men. So there's a lot of opportunities that exist in the workforce now to do this job stacking. And that all comes back to your concept that you said, multiple income sources.

So now if you roll back to what I did 10 years ago, I developed multiple income sources and income channels out of the work that I had been doing, that was one source. So what I did was I monetized my clinic work. I monetized what I was doing in the hospital. I monetized my call. I monetized my unassigned hospital newborn call, my unassigned obstetrical call, because those are different nuances when you're covering your own practice and when you're covering the hospital's service, so to speak. And so all of those things got monetized.

I monetized my sports medicine work. I've been the local team physician for the high school for years and oversaw athletic trainers. I monetized the nursing homework that I was doing. And then I began to diversify my income channels through things outside of the hospital's control, okay, including real estate, right? So I'm medical office building. Remember you heard me say I started the medical office building and began to receive income related to the medical office building.

And we really just began to diversify other real estate related elements and other income sources that at the end led to about, all said and done, probably 8 to 10 income sources that were all contributing to my household benefit that was beyond just the one that I had when I was traditionally employed. And that diversification is number one, empowering, but number two, it's also a better way to grow your financial footprint and your financial health because you're going to grow more wealth that way.

John: Excellent. Wow. That's a lot.

Dr. Tod Stillson: That's a lot. I know. I know it's a lot. I'm sorry. No, it is.

John: I'm probably going to, we're going to run out of time here in a minute. I do have one more question I want your opinion on, although you may not be an expert because I'm going to ask you about something I don't think you've ever done, but when you do talk to people in one of the options that some physicians have come up with to say, I want to do my practice in a completely different way. So I'm going to do some kind of cash only practice.

I'm going to do a DPC. I'm going to do this, that, do you have an opinion about just the pros and cons of that model versus doing what you're describing? Is there such a thing as a combination? I don't know.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Well, they're kind of, anything's possible nowadays. So I can say that it'd be tough because of the non-compete part to do a combination. But here's what I would say is number one, employment light is hybrid. So it's like having your foot in both doors, like a private practice and a hospital employee altogether. So it's a hybrid model, if you will.

And I found there to be some great strength and benefit for that. I can see though, that there is great, one of my best friends and my former practice partners here in my local community has a direct primary care model in our local community. So when all that went down to over a decade ago, he left, he went to work for basically a bank, became their little contracted family doctor in the bank, big bank. Okay.

John: Corporate medicine, huh?

Dr. Tod Stillson: Yeah. Corporate med. He went and did a little corporate medicine in a different way, but he got away from the thumb of the hospital. And then he eventually came back into the community and started a direct primary care practice. And he's been wildly successful at that. And I know he's a good friend. I talk to him regularly and I support everything he's doing, even though you kind of, in one level, we might be, "competing" with one another. We're not. But I love that model.

I think for patients, it's a tremendous winner. I think for doctors, it's a tremendous winner. I think that there's huge amount of space and opportunity for direct primary care and kind of going, I call it going off the grid medicine where you're just doing cash only. And I think this is a great place for that. It's not going to be the right thing for every doctor, but it fits into this idea of what I, and it's really what I encourage doctors to think about is micro corporations. So back in the day, John, we would think about medicine fit into one or two boxes, A, private practice.

You ran a business, you had HR, employees, lab, building, a lot of things about running a business versus the other end of the spectrum, being an employee where they ran the business and they just gave you a paycheck. I mean, and that was the two models that have existed for about 20 to 30 years, mostly.

Now we're seeing this growing space of cash only practices. Fantastic. Love to see that. Micro corporations, which is what in some regards what I did. I mean, I'm a little small corporation who has, well, two employees, myself, my wife's my bookkeeper. So there's some reasons that we benefit from having her being a bookkeeper in that. But really only person I have to manage is myself. So that's a micro corporation, and really direct primary care is oftentimes similar version of that, right?

A direct primary care clinic might have their own building. But there's usually going to be one doctor, maybe a nurse, maybe a receptionist, it's very lean. It's that almost again, lean versions of private practice is what direct primary care is in some regards. But I'd also say in this world that we're in, John, for doctors, there's also, and this is one of the courses I teach and people can get on my website to check it out. It's called the practice without walls, how to create a practice without walls, because that's the emerging space that a lot of doctors are inspired to do. And that is exactly what I have done.

Incorporate yourself and then contract out your professional services to anywhere in the world who virtually needs your professional services. So telehealth would be a classic example of that. And so, you can be doing telehealth and while you're living in California here in the Midwest, right, you can do that from anywhere you want in the world. And this practice without walls concept is just growing significantly. Think about Hims & Hers and there's doctors behind the scenes who are filling those prescriptions. Has to be a doctor behind the scenes, right?

John: Yes, exactly.

Dr. Tod Stillson: And so those doctors are working virtually somewhat in a telehealth model, doing that, easy money, easy work for them, so to speak. All right. So there are all sorts of ways that doctors can do location independent work. You had mentioned, I think even before we got online here, that you're still an administrator with the urgent care company that you've been working with. So that to a large extent, location independent work, right? So you don't have to be there. You can do that from your home. That's your professional work, both clinical and non-clinical that doctors can do a whole lot of that.

There's legal work, there's administrative work, just a massive amount of things that doctors can do that isn't just in that traditional private practice model. Okay. So the world is our oyster. There's a lot of options and I like to just inspire and encourage doctors to look at all options rather than just blindly following the herd into traditional employment and saying, this is my lot in life. Because quite honestly, that's a miserable lot to be in nowadays.

John: For sure. For sure. Well, I think you mentioned earlier, we're going to end in a minute here, but I think you mentioned your son is in training. Has he figured out what he's going to land in when he's all done?

Dr. Tod Stillson: Oh, I literally just talked to him today and I said, "John, have you figured out yet what you want to do?" And he loves medicine, and he gets that from his dad. I love medicine. In a family medicine, there's just so many options, right? So he's still trying to figure out how he wants to land the plane, whether he wants to do direct primary care, he might do some emergency medicine too. Even today he's like, "Dad, I might just take a year. We might go out to California." Because his wife's from Alabama and they're having their first child. They're going to end up in Alabama. Let me just put it that way. I know that.

But he's like, "We might take a year when it's easy to travel and go out to California, go somewhere we want to be and just work." Again, he's a good example, creating the lifestyle that you want and then working backwards to do whatever work supports that work. And in family medicine, John, you and I know, you can go a thousand different directions when it comes to the work you want to do.

And so he's got options. I don't know where he's going to land and what he's going to do, but I can tell you this much, he's going to be a great doctor. He's a great young man. I love him. I have five children. I love all five of my children, but he's going to be a good young doctor. A lot of the things I teach, I've shared with him one-on-one and he gets it. And so he's well-equipped. He's already started his own corporation. He's using it for moonlighting while he is in residency.

And so he's doing, like I told you, he's doing what I would have told my younger self to do so that he can thrive in the marketplace. And I really have a, in fact, one of the free eBooks that I have online is 20 reasons every resident should start a corporation during their residency. I feel strongly that if a resident can enter the marketplace by saying to the marketplace, I'm a business, I'm a micro corporation, and I want to be identified as a micro corporation, not as a traditional employee, when they enter the marketplace, that's the key spot because once you get started, even 3 to 5 or 10 years in, just because of the forces of physics, it's hard to make a change.

Okay. It's true. But if you can start out at the beginning by understanding and empowering yourself in that way, you'll likely stay in that space and really learn from it.

John: Okay. Well, I think that if your son was already in practice, the advice you just gave would be just as good. And the reason I say that is because listeners, that's your advice. Look at these things and choose an option and check it out and see if you can make things better for yourself. Tell us again, the website, the name of the book, where we can get all that stuff before we let you go.

Dr. Tod Stillson: So simplimd.com, S-I-M-P-L-I-M-D.com. And my book is Doctor Incorporated: Stop the Insanity of Traditional Employment and Preserve Your Professional Autonomy. You can get that on Amazon. I have lots of free and paid resources on my website. Listen, John, this is my passion project. I retired after 30 years in the clinic and I'm doing this as a passion project, as well as a very novel telehealth business I'm going to be getting off the ground in the next three months that's going to be really cool for doctors.

Think of Hims & Hers in the form of acute infections for the world to be treated in. As a family doctor, we're experts in acute infectious treatment, right? So I'm starting a site to work on that. But I love medicine. I love our tribe in medicine. And my passion and my retirement is semi-retirement, I would call it, my wife would agree, is to help our tribe and help our world be a better place than it currently exists.

And the system is rigged and broken right now. We've got to make changes. And I'm going to keep shouting it from the mountaintops. There are alternatives. There's a better place for us to land. And I want to see us all end up in win-win relationships.

John: Bravo. I'm glad to hear that. And I think if we have more people like you pushing it and sharing and educating, we'll get there eventually. So thanks, Tod, for being here today. I really appreciate it. I've learned a lot. And I think the listeners have too.

Dr. Tod Stillson: And John, thank you for your seven years plus of doing this show and really making a difference in the world. I realize sometimes it feels like, kind of feel like you're in an echo chamber sometime. But the reality is you're making a difference one person at a time. And it's a great effort that you're making. And I appreciate you inviting me to be a part of this. It's a kind of join arms to help people.

John: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. Thanks a lot. Bye now.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Bye-bye.

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The post More On The Benefits of a Professional Corporation appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

In this podcast episode, Dr. Tod Stillson describes how to win as a micro-corporation. For the past 10 years, Tod has been working under a professional services contract, rather than as a direct employee, providing him with greater autonomy and income.

Dr. Stillson shares his journey from a traditionally employed physician to an independent contractor. In this revealing interview, Tod introduces the concept of employment light and explains how doctors can negotiate better contracts with their current employers.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session on any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 a month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

The Rise of Corporate Medicine and Its Impact on Physicians

Corporate control of healthcare has led to decreased autonomy and increased burnout among physicians. Tod describes how arbitrary compensation caps and a lack of understanding from administrators have contributed to this problem.

He emphasizes the need for doctors to stand up for themselves and take control of their professional lives. And he describes the simple change he made to accomplish that goal.

Empowering Physicians to Win as a Micro-Corporation

Recognizing the lack of business education in medical training, Dr. Stillson created SimpliMD, a resource for doctors to improve their business acumen. He emphasizes the importance of understanding:

• The true value doctors bring to healthcare systems, including downstream revenue,
• How to negotiate fair compensation based on productivity, and,
• The power of business knowledge in preserving professional and personal autonomy.

Summary

In Part 1 of this two-part episode, Dr. Tod Stillson offers valuable insights for physicians looking to regain control of their careers and achieve a better work-life balance. Dr. Stillson's experience and resources provide a roadmap for doctors to navigate the complex world of healthcare employment and find success on their own terms.

Part 2 of this conversation follows in the next episode of the Physician Nonclinical Careers Podcast.

Links for today's episode:

• Dr. Tod Stillson's Website SimpliMD.com
• Free Subscription: Subscribe to the SimpliMD Blog.
• Dr. Tod Stillson's Book: Doctor Incorporated: Stop the Insanity of Traditional Employment and Preserve Your Professional Autonomy
• Employment Lite: Check out our Employment Lite landing page on why this hybrid model of employment and private practice is so appealing to many doctors.
• Free E-Books: Choose from a large menu of free E-Books that support your micro-business journey as a self-employed doctor.
• Professional Business Network: Our vetted and preferred network of small business professionals and resources that will support your professional micro-corporation journey.
• How to Save Healthcare, Satisfy Patients, and Fix Physician Burnout – 256
• Check out the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit to learn about MORE unconventional career options.

Paid Resources from SimpliMD:

• $199 Course: Creating A Practice Without Walls.
• $99 Consultation: 1:1 Micro-Business Consultation.
• $500 Micro-Corporation Start: A Business Consultation + Connection to Legal Professionals to Start Your Professional Micro-Corporation.
• $99 ($10 for residents) SimpliMD Membership: Join our community of self-employed doctors and receive exclusive perks for members only
• $2000 SimpliMD Coaching: 1:1 holistic coaching with a small business focus.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 374

Now Every Doctor Can Win As a Micro-Corporation

- Interview with Dr. Tod Stillson

John: All right, NonClinical nation. I think today's interview might potentially change your lives. Our guest today is going to explain how he was able to work in a fulfilling medical practice as a pseudo-employee while maintaining his professional autonomy and earning a much higher income. That seems like nirvana to me. So let's welcome Dr. Tod Stillson to the podcast. Hi, Tod.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Hey, John. It's great to be with you and I'm excited to share my journey with your listeners.

John: Yeah, I'm excited to hear this story from the horse's mouth, so to say. I mean, I've read about you and looked at some of the things you've done online, and this just sounds like an exciting option for some of the people out there that are unhappy in their practices.

Dr. Tod Stillson: It is one of many options that exist, and I tell you the beautiful thing about the marketplace today is although corporations strongly control it, there are lots of new developments happening for doctors to regain their autonomy and not feel like they have to end up as a corporate employee, or really what I call a high-paid factory worker, okay?

John: Yeah, that's definitely what it feels like. I mean, that's what I hear constantly. In lack of autonomy and overwork, they don't understand what a physician does.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Oh, yeah, 100%.

John: It's going to lead to the demise of the profession unless we do something.

Dr. Tod Stillson: John, you and I trained at similar times and have similar experiences as family doctors, and you're exactly right. It's the undermining of the professionalization of our great work as doctors that all doctors across the country do, but it has been eroded. I'm a fan for doctors standing up and saying, that's enough. Let's take control of this ourselves.

John: Awesome. Yeah. Well, tell us a little bit about your background and the mission that you have to educate physicians on how you have found a way to make things better, even if you're, "employed by a hospital system."

Dr. Tod Stillson: Yeah, and I'll tell you the short story, and then we can get into more details later if you want, but I grew up in the Midwest and did my training in Indiana and went out to Virginia to do my residency in family medicine as well as surgical obstetrics. Came back to Indiana and worked here basically in a primary care clinic in rural Indiana for nearly 30 years. And when I came back to this area to begin working, there was the opportunity to work as an employee of a hospital and really just receive a paycheck for it.

And this is way back in the day when it felt like everybody was in a win-win relationship, right? Where you were given a fair compensation. They still gave you a lot of autonomy in the practice. And as long as you know your downstream was good and everybody's working well, everybody wins. And it was very somewhat simple, but really great. Over time, though, as you know, the corporization of America really came into play. And even our little rural hospital began to lose its autonomy to a larger health system that began to take more control and try and crank out more money and in the process remove more and more.

It's the same script that we've heard from doctors all over the country, right? This just happens and happens and happens. And over time, for me, what happened was because I was a full-service family doctor, meaning I did inpatient care, newborn care, OB care, surgical OB, I really did everything in the hospital, okay? We were busy. I mean, in a rural place, any of those doctors out there that work in rural places you know back in the day, especially, you could be very, very busy. Consequently, I earned a lot of RVUs.

And I mean, I really cranked out a lot of money, if you will, and was paid fairly for it at the time for the hospital myself. They really still came out ahead because of the downstream, okay? But nonetheless, the hospital system that owned them came in and began looking at some of our rural family doctors' pay compared to the city people that were working. And they're like you guys are making a lot more money, and that just doesn't seem right. We're going to kind of level the playing field and we're going to put a ceiling on how much you can earn. Arbitrarily.

John: It sounds like my CFO when I was CMO of the hospital, you know?

Dr. Tod Stillson: Okay. Yeah, makes sense to them, right? Put a ceiling on this. How could a family doctor make that much money, right? And so, I'm like, all of us are like, "Wait a second, what are you talking about? We work hard for our community and for the sake of our hospital, and you want to just give us a pay cut and expect us to go, 'Oh, thank you very much. That's okay.'" So, the long and short of it is, as all these things kind of get dragged out, as they often do, our group of about eight doctors, we saw five of them leave, basically, over a year's time. They're like, "I'm not staying around for this." This left about three of us holding the balls up in the air, meaning we were working harder and doing more work, but still the ceiling loomed.

And eventually, we were just like, what are we going to do? Do we want to go out into private practice together here? Because none of us wanted to move. Do we want to just say, okay, thank you very much. I'll accept this contract or something else. I was wise enough to know, like most doctors are, I was business illiterate and also relatively financially illiterate. So one of the greatest moves I've made in my life was I reached out to some business consultants in healthcare and said, "Hey, this is the situation. What would you recommend to me to do?" And in the process, they unfolded this employment light concept to me that was newer and just coming out and people were using it in the marketplace.

And they proposed that model to me to take back to the institution I was working for. And lo and behold, because I was in a bit of a position of power, because I had a lot of patients, but number two, fortunately, my contract did not have a non-compete in it. And so, they knew that I had some power to take my 5,000 plus patients to any healthcare company that wanted a contract with me. And so, they were somewhat incentivized in that moment in time to say, "That's a good thought to make you an independent contractor that looks like you're an employee still, but really you're an independent contractor." And that's what employment light is.

And they agreed to that while I was in it and while the moment was in my favor, my business consultants also recommended you might consider purchasing a medical office building and having them lease it from you, wisely said and wisely done, they agreed to that. And so, and then really beyond that, I then negotiated an employment light agreement that is basically productivity-based, so compensation-based. If you remember, they wanted to have a ceiling for that productivity. But that was, here's the seat, that was for their traditional employees, their traditional employees they control, right?

Independent contractors, they have the freedom and liberty to form individual contracts. And so, I could then say, this is what the MGMA data is for what a family doctor in a rural area is doing. This is what I should be paid as work RVUs for that. And they agreed to it because they weren't forced to comply with the corporate employee model. Now, I have an individual one-on-one contract that quite honestly, John, I wasn't asking to be paid more than I was worth. I was just being asked, I was asking to be paid for what I was worth.

And they agreed to all that. And so, the long and short of that was the rest is history. That was over a decade ago. I've loved every minute of that decision. And that's led me to SimpliMD because that experience and my wonderful experience of seeing how that revitalized my professional autonomy is the message I have to doctors all over the country. This is possible. You can do this. It's not visible. It's not seen. Employers are not telling people about it, but it's possible. And that's the story I have.

John: That's awesome. Let me ask you a couple of questions that pop into my mind. And as I said as a CMO, I was sometimes, actually, I was doing a lot of the negotiating for contracts. And that was the thing, the contracts need to be somewhat consistent.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Sure they do.

John: But I think I've heard you speak in other settings about sometimes even given that if you're really producing a lot of RVUs because you're doing certain things that maybe the other doctors aren't, they want to put that cap on what you mentioned earlier.

Dr. Tod Stillson: That's correct.

John: So I guess my two questions, did you still somehow have any kind of a cap that affected you once you had made this change number one? And how do you avoid burnout? Because there's still the incentive, I think, is to work your tail off in a way. Maybe that's two questions.

Dr. Tod Stillson: That's a fair question. Spoken like a true doctor about the burnout side. So number one, I had no ceiling in it. And so I negotiated that in the contract, no ceiling. And in fact, I normally, and it's called the professional services agreement. You know that from being a CMO. By the way, for your listeners, professional service agreements are traditionally where locums are seated. Okay. If you want to think of it in a simple way, that's often what locums do, that's contracted labor, and that's often called the professional services agreement.

Employment light that I'm talking about, in my experience, is also a services agreement. So that's the big box that it goes into. And in my professional services agreement, it's a three-year agreement that renews. But we renegotiate at the end of every three years. And I had an elevator for my work RVUs in it as well. So I didn't just get paid a dollar value per work RVU per year. Each year that went up. Okay. And so because, right, because we have issues like we're all experiencing right now, inflation, right? So numbers tend to rise. And if you keep it static, you're going to end up on the backside of that. And a lot of physicians don't understand how that works.

So anyhow, I had that built into mine and there was no ceiling, and it was just fair compensation for the work that I was doing. Now, I will tell you this much, the moment that I turned that on and began doing the same number of work RVUs I'd been doing the prior year, I made a couple hundred thousand dollars more. I mean, literally apples, apples, not doing more work, not doing anything more, literally just being paid fairly, it led to a couple hundred thousand dollars difference in pay annually.

Now, to answer your second question though is, is there some challenges with that that you get into when it comes to, do you sometimes incentivize yourself to work harder than you need to, right? And I think any self-employed doctor, especially if you've ever been in private practice or ran your own practice in any way will ask themselves that question. And you have to guard yourself from going into that rabbit hole.

All right. Do the work you enjoy, do it at a pace you enjoy, do to the rhythm you enjoy, meet the expected requirements that that pseudo employer has for you, if you will, at least be a mid-level performer, if you will. And let it fall from there. I took five weeks of vacation every year. Okay. And by the way, in the model that I worked in, today's where people always talk about pay time off, right? PTO, all that business. Nope. In my model, when I was working, I got paid.

If I wasn't working, I didn't get paid. And I know what that opportunity cost was for me. If I took a week off, it was going to cost me about $14,000 of income. Just that's what it was. But you know what, for my own sense of well-being and my own sense of sustainability in it, it was very important to take that time off because indeed, I was a high-performing doctor, did a lot of obstetrics and was available a lot. But that was a rhythm and pace that I enjoyed. So your listeners, if you do get engaged in a contract like this, you definitely want to guard yourself from overworking because you're sort of incentivized by that carrot. Find that sweet spot, so to speak.

John: I'm going to have a series of questions here now to put you on the spot. But because I'm going to do that, I want to early in this game here, remind our listeners that you do teach other people how to do this in a variety of ways. And so tell us about, before I get into my laundry list, SimpliMD and everything you're doing to help physicians learn more about this.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Yeah, I'm glad to do that, John. One of the fundamental problems in my story that you heard was I had business illiteracy. Most of us go through our medical training and unfortunately, there's not a lot of financial or business literacy that exists, right? Now, we have a lot of organizations that have been populated out there for doctors to become financially literate, and it's for doctors, things like White Coat Investor, et cetera, that are really nice resources that are filling some gaps that exist in helping physicians. And I love that that's happening.

The reality, though, is there's not a lot of business or micro-business resources like that for doctors. And so I chose to develop SimpliMD as a micro-business competency website that would help doctors flourish and thrive by understanding their business powers and really understanding that doctors are a business individually. And so I have a whole bunch of resources and assets from courses, to consultations, to coaching, to free eBooks that can be found at simplimd.com, and that's spelled S-I-M-P-L-I-M-D.com. And so your listeners are more than welcome to go to that, take a look at the various products that exist.

They can look at the header and find everything. I love helping doctors. I just love helping them learn from what I've discovered and learning how to thrive through the preservation of their professional and personal autonomy. So it's a really powerful idea. And I can tell you at SimpliMD, I don't want to go too far around this rabbit hole, but pretty much the system is rigged against doctors. Yeah, I don't know if you know this yet or not, okay?

John: Yeah, it is, pretty much.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Systems rigged against doctors, okay? And it's because the corporatization of medicine has really stolen that autonomy we have. And then they funnel us all into W-2 workers, right? And then the federal government, who's the other force at play here, they love hiring doctors, hiring taxpayers like doctors who are W-2 employees, because they got no place to turn, right? And that we literally are the targets that they are looking at and saying, oh, you guys are the ones that make a lot of money. We're going to be happy to take all that from you as a W-2 earner.

And so there's not a doctor I don't talk to that doesn't say taxes are killing me. They're horrible. So whether it be burnout or taxes, doctors are having all of this erode that deep sense of when you and I became doctors. We're like, you know what? I don't need to be a gazillionaire, but I certainly look forward to the good life of a doctor, where I have some professional autonomy, where I have some personal autonomy, where I can make a good living and not feel like I'm being picked apart day by day. That's what doctors are looking for.

In today's world, there's so many forces that push back against them. And what SimpliMD is about, and some of the work you're doing I know as well, John, is all about re-empowering doctors in the marketplace to say you don't have to give into those two things. And there is a different path and a different space you can go into. That's what I talk about at SimpliMD.

John: A couple of things I wanted to say. First of all, reflecting again back to the day when I was working at the hospital as an executive the CMO, well, not CMO, the CFO, the CEO, the COO, they're going to want to get out as much as they can from their physicians. They want them to be productive. They want a bottom line. They're driven by that. And they actually, they really do not understand a physician's life. I mean, I actually had to do a lecture for the team explaining to them that when we go home at five o'clock, if we go home at 5:00, that's not the end of our day.

Dr. Tod Stillson: That's correct.

John: We could be busy doing records and answering phone calls, being on call, coming back, going to the nursing home, so many other things. And they just, they don't get it.

Dr. Tod Stillson: No, they don't.

John: So when you were talking about that, it really rang true for me.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Yeah. So there's two things to keep in mind and you understand this as a CMO. Number one, what the work you do in the clinic or face-to-face with patients, your professional services, so to speak, that's just a little, that's a small part of the bucket of what that hospital system is really looking at. They're really looking at the downstream revenue of what your work produces and it's the churn. In business world, we call that the churn, right? The churn of what you produce for them and every doctor who's in an employee situation, you need to know what your churn is. That is exactly what the real value is to your health system to them. And that is that downstream revenue.

Spoiler alert, that's usually worth anywhere from $2 to $5 million, depending on your specialty per doctor. Now translate that $2 to $5 million churn that you're creating for them, not just seeing patients in the clinic, but the whole churn and they're micromanaging every click of the mouse that you have in that clinic space and all the while are making a whole bunch of money on that churn that exists for you downstream. That's what burns out doctors. And that's where you begin to feel undervalued, uncared for, and misunderstood.

So understanding that you do have a downstream revenue beyond what you're doing in the clinic is an important part of the business model that when you become an employee, you're engaged in. And you're exactly right. The administrators don't fully respect and understand what it's like to live under that microscope that you are churning out for them and the difficulties and challenges of it, because they're really looking at you as a number on the spreadsheet.

You're an impersonal number on the spreadsheet. And here's how it looks. Physician labor, expense, period. Okay. That's your salary plus your benefits and anything else that you're doing to create money, to make the system pay for you. Okay? And then the, what you're doing in the clinic plus the downstream revenue. And that's the equation. And you need to understand the dynamics of how those things interplay and the power you have as a doctor to stand up for yourself and say, wait a second, you're undervaluing me and you're underpaying me.

John: Yeah. Now, the other thing I wanted to mention before we move on to my next question is that I did look thoroughly at your website and I felt like I was in a YouTube thing because, not because there's all videos, really, it's a lot of blogs, but the titles and the questions you're answering there are so damn interesting. You know, it's like, damn, I wish I knew that 10 years ago. Damn, I wish I knew that when I was in practice. So I mean, there's a ton of free information and it really gets to all these issues and it addresses maybe some of the questions I'm going to continue to ask you here in a minute, but I really recommend people go and check that out.

Dr. Tod Stillson: And I appreciate that, John. And I will say, I'm so thankful you said that, because to be honest, I created that website and that business with just that in mind. What would my younger self like to know and what can I communicate and share with the rest of my physician tribe that the younger version of myself, now I'm 30 years into practice and so forth, that I wish I would have known.

And part of that, John, and I really write about this in my book, Doctor Incorporated: Stop the Insanity of Traditional Employment and Preserve Your Professional Autonomy. That book was written, a little bit of my website was written with my son in mind. He's currently a third year family medicine resident in Dallas, Fort Worth with John Paul Smith Residency Program. I just was thinking, and it's really what inspired all of those, what's the best advice I can give my son to thrive in the marketplace? And all of that really somewhat began to inspire the whole work that I did with the book, SimpliMD. So intentionally, you're right. That's exactly for the viewpoint that I write those, getting those resources that can make their life better, if I would have known that 10 years ago or earlier.

John: All right. I'm glad you did it.

Dr. Tod Stillson: Yeah, thanks.

John: That's very interesting. And even though I'm never going to be practicing again, once I fully retire. Okay, here's a question. You're in the setting as a physician of being employed, you're subject to all these issues, you're burned out or what have you. I can imagine that it's not necessarily an easy conversation to say, okay, guys, I don't want you to get worried that I want to leave. I don't want to leave, but I don't want to be employed by you anymore. And I don't want to go into private practice. So I have this idea. So you help people work through that I think.

Dr. Tod Stillson: I have.

John: How do you approach that?

Dr. Tod Stillson: So there's a couple of things about it. This is important for your listeners to know. Number one, a professional services agreement and employment light, virtually every hospital knows about it. And here's why they know about it. That's because this is the pathway and the bridge they use to bring private practice doctors into their safe harbor. This is the same pathway they use. They use it virtually every year, all the time. And it's that bridge, but they want to make it a one-way bridge. They kind of want to go, well, this is what we do to engage private practice doctors to come in and become employed doctors. And this is the pathway for it.

But if you're already employed with them, it's like they've got this big kind of bar in front of them and go, you can't go the other direction with this. The reality is that they know about his existence, but it's in what I call the hidden drawer. Let me just use a real Midwestern analogy with you. I like going to the dairy queen. We've got a great dairy queen in our little community. And the day went that my wife and I went to the dairy queen and we both are going to order peanut buster parfaits. And so I order peanut buster buffet with the fudge and all that stuff was really good.

And my wife got up and she said, "I want the peanut buster parfait, but I want peanut sauce substituted for the chocolate." Okay. And I looked at her, I'm like, "Well, that's not on the menu." And she's like, "Oh, but it's on the secret menu. You have to ask for it. And as soon as she said it, they just like, "Okay, we can do it." Well, secret menus exist in all restaurants just as an FYI. Okay. But number two, secret menus exist for all employment contracts.

And the first drawer that they're going to pull out for you is the boiler plate traditional employment contract for every doctor. That's what they're going to go first. And they're going to make you think that is your option. And you have to have enough savvy to say, number one, you know there's some other contracts in your drawer there that we could also talk about. And my preference is to be considered an independent contractor, not an employee. So you have to have the business awareness and your own self-awareness to say that.

Now, if you're a doctor who's been traditionally employed and then your contract's coming up for renewal, or you want to have a conversation with your CMO, again, you got to have the awareness that this is one of the contracts that you would potentially talk about transitioning to. You're like, and here's how I coach doctors to say it. And this is exactly how I said it to my CMO.

I said, "Look, I like wearing our team jersey. I'm all for wearing our team jersey. I want to see our organization succeed, but I want to do it in a little bit different way than what we've been doing it before as a traditional employee. And I think we can do this in a win-win relationship where I'm an independent contractor that still does all the same work, still produces all the same downstream, still gets all the fair compensation from you. But what I gain from that, Mr. CMO, is A, a little more professional autonomy, and then B, an amazing amount of tax efficiency. I have now added a whole bunch of tax tools to my kit that I no longer am targeted as a just a sole W-2 employee. Now I can save 10% to 15% of my income, which for a doctor is a lot of income annually, in that model.

So guess what, Mr. CMO? I want to see you guys win. I want to see me win, and we can do this in a cost-neutral way so that everybody wins. How about it? Let's have a conversation, talk about this, and let's pull that secret menu contract out of your drawer, and let's talk through this." And honestly, it's that simple. Now, there's a couple of caveats here I want to bring forth to your listeners, John.

Number one, to be considered an independent contractor, you can't have that hospital work that you're doing as your sole contract, okay? Because the IRS is going to look at the hospital as like, hey, you're just trying to avoid FICA tax by employing this person as a contractor rather than as an employee, and they get a lot of penalties, and that's where hospitals get really uptight about these things, right? So they're like, wWell, we can't do that because we could get in trouble from the feds," and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

So it's very simple, right? How many doctors do you know that don't do some side hustle of some type? I mean, gosh, the studies show 40% to 50% of doctors do. I mean, it's very common. But to be considered an independent contractor, you'd want to have that primary contract and then a job stack, a secondary work that you do as an independent contractor. It could be nursing home assistant director.

It could be taking call. It could be doing telehealth. It could be, in today's world where there's physician jobs that are location independent, like gobs of them, there's all sorts of things you can do. And it's really not so much about the amount of money that you're making in those independent positions. It's that you're doing it. So in other words, you can demonstrate to the IRS and to the employer that you indeed are doing more than one job, okay?

That's the definition of an independent contractor, all right, you're doing more than one job. So that's an important caveat, but it all begins with you going to your superior and saying, "I'm interested in a win-win conversation, okay? This is not me against you. This is not me getting away from you. This is about us doing this together.

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Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

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The post Now Every Doctor Can Win As a Micro-Corporation appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Today we provide an inspiring story and learn how to become an IME (Independent Medical Examiner) from an expert orthopedic surgeon in this classic episode from 2021.

Dr. Emily Woolcock is an internationally recognized speaker, best-selling author, mentor, and consultant. She is among the country’s most well-known orthopedic surgeons. Dr. Woolcock is board-certified by the American Board of Orthopedic Surgery and the American Board of Independent Medical Examiners.

Our Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career you love. To learn more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

For Podcast Listeners

• John hosts a short Weekly Q&A Session addressing any topic related to physician careers and leadership. Each discussion is now posted for you to review and apply. Sometimes all it takes is one insight to take you to the next level of your career. Check out the Weekly Q&A and join us for only $5.00 per month.
• If you want access to dozens of lessons dedicated to nonclinical and unconventional clinical careers, you should join the Nonclinical Career Academy MemberClub. For a small monthly fee, you can access the Weekly Q&A Sessions AND as many lessons and courses as you wish. Click the link to check it out, and use the Coupon Code “FIRSTMONTHFIVE” to get your first month for only $5.00.
• The 2024 Nonclinical Summit is over. But you can access all the fantastic lectures from our nationally recognized speakers, including Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Unachukwu, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Go to Nonclinical Summit and enter Coupon Code “30-OFF” for a $30 discount.

Dr. Woolcock Begins Doing IMEs

Dr. Woolcock founded businesses in Georgia, Florida, and Maryland. They include the Orthopedic and Joint Replacement Institute, the Accident Rehabilitation Center, and National Orthopedic Consultants. In 2016 she established the IME Academy. Through the Academy, she teaches students to perform defensible, literature-based independent medical examinations.

Emily is passionate about helping other physicians. So she helps them break free from the work/life balance issues she experienced early in her career. As a wife and mother, she understands the struggles physicians and other healthcare professionals face. 

When she first began experiencing burnout, she found that a skill she learned in residency could solve her problem. She began performing highly compensated independent medical exams. By doing IME consulting and delegating nonclinical work to team members she cut back on her office and operating room commitments.

How to Become an IME

Emily is a very creative and dedicated physician. She balances clinical work, performing IMEs, writing books, and mentoring dozens of young people. She is busy. Yet, she loves her work. And she is not burned out. 

This is the first time I had a guest with the expertise to explain how to become an IME. It is similar to what an expert witness does. But it also involves examining patients, which some of you might find more compelling as a side job.

Like expert witness work, learning to be an IME pays very well. You generally must continue to practice medicine, at least part-time.

Find out what makes you happy and learn to  integrate that with your vocational calling and you will be a much better, well-rounded person. – Dr. Emily Woolcock

Emily provided inspiration and valuable information. She knows this topic well. If you’re interested in learning to be an IME you can find her course at theimeacademy.com.

Summary

Dr. Emily Woolcock describes her inspirational story. She discovered a way to reduce her work time while producing more income by performing Independent Medical Examinations. In this interview, she explains how you can do the same and improve your work-life balance. 

Links for Today's Episode:

• The IME Academy
• Dr. Emily Woolcock Website
• Dr. Emily Woolcock LinkedIn Page
• My Doctor Looks Like Me, by Emily d. Woolcock, MD (female ver.)
• My Doctor Looks Like Me, by Emily Woolcock, MD (male ver.)
• Mi Doctor Looks Like Me, by Emily Woolcock, MD (Spanish ver.)
• Looks Like Me Books Facebook Page

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, share it on Twitter and Facebook, and leave a review on iTunes.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Many of the links that I refer you to, and that you’ll find in the show notes, are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you, that I have personally used or am very familiar with.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post How to Become an IME: A PNC Classic from 2021 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Interview with Dr. Sharon Hull – 351

In today's episode, Dr. Sharon Hull explains why exploring what matters most is critical to designing your career.

From her early experiences in small-town medicine to her role as a pioneering leader in physician coaching, Dr. Hull's story resonates with professionals seeking greater fulfillment and meaning in their work lives. Today, she empowers listeners to embark on their personal journeys of self-discovery and intentional career design.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Our Episode Sponsor

Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.”

If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat.

Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

Navigating Leadership in Medicine

As a seasoned coach and mentor, Dr. Hull recognizes the importance of leadership development for physicians and other professionals. She discusses the unique challenges physicians face in leadership roles, from communication barriers to institutional politics. Drawing from her coaching experience, Dr. Hull offers practical advice on cultivating essential leadership skills, including effective communication, time management, and strategic decision-making.

Professional Careers by Design

Dr. Hull's forthcoming book, Professional Careers by Design: A Handbook for the Bespoke Life, serves as a roadmap for professionals seeking to design their careers with intentionality and purpose. Through a blend of practical strategies and thought-provoking exercises, the book guides readers through self-discovery and career planning. Dr. Hull emphasizes the importance of aligning career choices with personal values and aspirations, encouraging readers to embrace change and pursue meaningful work that reflects their authentic selves.

Dr. Sharon Hull's Mantra

Start with what matters and then figure out how you can get more of that in your life.

Summary

To connect with Dr. Sharon Hull and explore her insights further, you can visit her website at www.mettasolutions.com. You'll find valuable resources there, including her blog and information about her book, Professional Careers by Design: A Handbook for the Bespoke Life. Additionally, you can follow Dr. Hull on LinkedIn for updates and insights into career transformation and intentional career planning. Whether you're seeking guidance on navigating career transitions or crafting a purpose-driven career path, Dr. Hull's expertise and resources offer invaluable support on your professional journey.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Sharon Hull's Metta Solutions Website
• Dr. Sharon Hull's LinkedIn Page
• Professional Careers by Design: A Handbook for the Bespoke Life
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

Download This Episode:

Right Click Here and “Save As” to download this podcast episode to your computer.

Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 351

Explore What Matters Most and Design Your Professional Career

- Interview with Dr. Sharon Hull

John: One of the things that comes up very often when I'm speaking with physicians who are looking for what to do with the next chapter of their life because they're unfulfilled or unhappy is they have this question, "How do I figure out what I should be doing or find out what my passion is?"

Anyway, they've never done that introspection before and that's why I'm so happy to have today's guest, Dr. Sharon Hull with me today. She's written a book, she's been doing coaching for years and she's addressed this particular problem many times with her clients over the years. With that, let me welcome Dr. Sharon Hull.

Dr. Sharon Hull: Thank you, John. It's a delight to be here. I've been following your work for several years and happy to talk to your audience of people who are trying to figure out how to make peace with this career choice.

John: Yes, and how to make the best of it maybe and continue it, maybe get rid of the bad parts of the particular situation and keep the good parts. Tell us about your background, what you've been up to and then we'll get into my questions and about what you've been doing. So tell us about your journey.

Dr. Sharon Hull: I'm delighted to tell you a bit of my story. I'm a family physician. I tell people by initial training and by my DNA. It was my natural fit when I went through medical school and had a wonderful 30-plus year career in family medicine, most of it in academic medicine but I did start in solo rural private practice near my hometown which was its own wild ride of an experience. People that were my second parents, my best friend and my babysitter as a child helped me paint the trim on my office the night before we opened. That's a classic small town family medicine story.

I had a great career as a physician and I realized that my life was going to need to make some shifts along the way to deal with family needs and for that reason I entered early a career of coaching kind of as a side gig with medicine. Everybody in my medical world and my academic world knew that I was doing it and I figured I would go full-time into it when I retired in my mid-60s. That was my mental plan.

And life happened and in my early 50s I got the opportunity to become a full-time coach within an academic center and build a program for coaching physicians and scientists in that center and had a wonderful time doing it but I found myself in my encore career about a decade before I expected to and I haven't looked back. No regrets about medicine and no regrets about an early transition to an encore. So, that's the short version of my story. I'll answer any questions you have.

John: That was very interesting and listeners, I recommend you look at Sharon's LinkedIn profile because you'll get a fuller picture in some ways. It's not the full story obviously but it just shows the number of transitions that Sharon has navigated. Before we get into my other questions, Sharon, can you just tell me the name of your hometown in Southern Illinois?

Dr. Sharon Hull: I grew up in a little town called Ridgeway which was the popcorn capital of the world as it claimed itself. There were 1,200 people in town and 23 people in my high school graduating class. It was a classic small town experience.

John: Do you have any idea how far away that is from Metropolis? Have you ever heard of that town?

Dr. Sharon Hull: I do. I know exactly where Metropolis is. Are you from Metropolis by the way?

John: I'm not but my wife's family is from there and some of them still live in that area.

Dr. Sharon Hull: I grew up probably about 60 miles from Metropolis, just a little bit north.

John: That's definitely Southern Illinois. It's almost Kentucky.

Dr. Sharon Hull: People think that Illinois is all Chicago and there's a whole bunch of the state left.

John: All right, let's get back to the interview. One of the things I wanted to comment on is it looked like because you're involved with academics and you're doing it with coaching, it looked to me a lot like it was leadership coaching and I think that the part they don't necessarily teach in med school and residency, you have to be some type of leader when you're a physician but it's not always the right type of leader. Any comment on that observation?

Dr. Sharon Hull: I have some comments about it. I don't think we get taught how to be leaders and I think leadership is a profession in and of itself that has a certain skill set that you might have if you're a physician and you might not have. I worked with a lot of physicians who found themselves in leadership roles because of their clinical expertise or their scientific expertise and they didn't know what to do with humans in a nonclinical setting.

Usually I wasn't working with people who were in trouble. I was working with people who were new to leadership roles and trying to build the skills. We focused a lot on communication skills, on time and energy management as a new leader and what I sort of jokingly call the institutional perspective or the politics of the whole thing. That's where I spent most of my time in leadership coaching. It's that perspective taking and communication skills.

John: Yes, as you know physicians are often put in leadership role for a team or a committee but if we work in a corporate environment, it's different, or any kind of big hierarchy. It's a whole different way of interacting with people. A lot of people are focusing more on servant leadership for the last 10 or 20 years and so that means it's not like the military approach, the way medicine used to be. That's an important thing. And you must have been contributing heavily to your organization. I don't think there are that many that were doing that kind of coaching at the time.

Dr. Sharon Hull: We were one of the early institutions. I won't say we were the first but we were among the first to really put in place a program that wasn't about people being in trouble. It was really an investment in mid-career talented people who were rising up the ladder and helping them be successful. It was a lot of fun.

John: Sounds like it would be fun. That was a thing that brought me to you when we connected on LinkedIn a month or two ago. And at the time I was setting this interview up with you I didn't actually realize you were on the verge of releasing your book and it addresses all these issues around leadership and designing one's career. I thought this was definitely something we have to talk about. So tell us what's the name of the book and why did you write it?

Dr. Sharon Hull: I'm happy to do that. The title of the book is Professional Careers by Design: A Handbook for the Bespoke Life. This book is kind of a distillation of about a dozen years of coaching professionals about how to help them make their career what they want and need it to be at that moment. Helping them realize that their needs and wants change over the course of a lifetime and that's okay. It's really kind of a guidebook to a lifelong process of being intentional about your career.

I came to write it because I kept coaching people who were asking these questions. How do I know what I want? What do I do? I've trained to do one thing and I can't imagine not doing it but I can't imagine keeping on this path. And I kept looking for the book that I could have them read and I couldn't find the book that covered what I was covering. And after about eight or nine years I decided I probably was going to just have to write it. And that sounds arrogant and I don't mean it to but I couldn't find anybody who was talking about it the way I was coaching people. So I decided to put that in print and maybe leave it as a guidebook.

John: I'm glad you did and the thing is the book hasn't been released yet as we're recording this but it's coming out very soon.

Dr. Sharon Hull: Launch day is tomorrow, John. April 30th. By the time your podcast goes live it will be live and released. We're going to do a big launch event tomorrow where I'm doing interviews of people about their career journey and we're going to have a lot of fun. By the time your listeners hear this it will be available to the public.

John: Okay, we'll get to how to get the book in a minute but it struck me as I was looking at the index for the book there's so many different areas they think are right on in terms of what we need to learn about it. Probably any professional in a similar situation. I don't know if you'd agree but there's a big group that's a lot like us physicians and that's professional athletes. They work really, really hard for a long time. They get burned out and they face things even more in a compressed way because their careers are usually shorter.

That's what I'm going to ask you about today. Some of the things in the book and you can educate me and our listeners and then go off in any direction you want but just to get things started you know what I hear a lot is that physicians say they're just unhappy. I can't really keep this kind of pace up forever. I'm just overwhelmed. I've experienced the same thing myself and that even if you enjoy medicine there's a certain point as you get older you just can't keep up that pace. You can't be on call and work long hours forever. And so, the question is always what do I do next? How do I find out or figure out what I should go towards rather than running away from something?

Dr. Sharon Hull: I'll respond to that first by saying it is good to go towards something rather than just run away. I think that's a hallmark of the early conversations when I meet with somebody who wants to think about changing careers.

The next things I do because I'm a family physician by training is I try to assess the degree of burnout and the degree of mental health compromise and assuming that people are stable and not in urgency about those things. Then we have a conversation about what matters to you. I remember asking one man in his early 50s that question and said "What matters to you right now?" And this was a kind of a classic stoic man who looked at me and just started crying and it surprised the heck out of him that he cried but when he was able to gather his thoughts he said nobody's asked me what I wanted in 40 years. And I think as professionals, it's not just men it's men and women, and it's not just physicians but as professionals we don't ask ourselves what matters very often.

And so, at the beginning of my book the front section is about discernment and it starts with that question, "What matters most to you at this season of your life?" I think that list changes over our seasons. It changes when you're early in your career when you have young children if you have children, when you have caregiving responsibilities or health issues. That's what I mean when I talk about the seasons of people's lives.

When I give them this exercise and it's the first exercise in the book, make your top 10 list of the things that matter. And I tell people, I quote a dear friend and mentor who's recognized in the book, personal and professional, it's all one life. You have a finite amount of energy. What you do with it's up to you. And so, that's kind of the ground state for the book and then I ask them to make that list of what matters and I tell them the only rule is you have to have some personal and some professional things. And there's no right ratio, just make your list. You can't be wrong it's your list.

I bring people back to talk about that and I ask them what they learned and what surprised them. And almost invariably what surprises them is the top five to seven things are personal they're not professional. For all of us, it's kind of near universal human experience with the exception of people who are very early in their careers or at a very high competitive time in their career. I have a professor who's trying to get tenure and trying to get their grants written or somebody who's trying to get through residency or fellowship. Those people it's mostly professional at the top. But for most of us once we're through that, it's about person and nobody gives us permission to do that conversation in our own heads. I feel like I'm preaching to the choir here, let me be quiet and let you do any follow-up if you want to.

John: Well, I think it's ironic sometimes when I talk to people, for example, someone who's working 60 hours a week they're trying to generate a lot of money so they can donate it or contribute it to some venture to be able to share the income to get access to and support that other thing that probably is what's important to them. And to me it's like "Well, why don't you just do something that somehow brings these together if that's really what matters to you?" And like you said life and the career aren't necessarily separate. So that's just an observation that I've made and I'm sure you've seen different versions of that same kind of thing.

Dr. Sharon Hull: Well, you do too. You reach a lot of people and you've talked to a lot of people. I have seen some of the online conversations you've had and these are common questions and you're seeing the same variations on a theme that I see. I will say they extend beyond just the profession of medicine and I tried to write the book or any professional however they define themselves but particularly people who have studied for a long time to enter a profession and have a set of expectations that they'll stay with it from society or from their family or from income needs or whatever. That's who the book is written for is the people who feel like they might be stuck.

John: I'd like to go back to something that you mentioned earlier and it's this whole idea of a life and a career by design. Maybe that's something everyone should be taught either in high school or college about actually taking time to try to design your career, design your life and maybe go back to it from time to time. Growing up I was good at math, I was good in science, I got good grades, so I guess I was going to be a physician. So, how should we really look at that? How should we conceptualize that?

Dr. Sharon Hull: I devote some time in the very beginning of the book to talking about the idea of design thinking, kind of the idea that you make the best first choice you can make and you keep tinkering. And it's people who design furniture or design machine parts do that. Thomas Edison did that when he invented the light bulb. He had 1,500 ways he failed and he said "I didn't fail, I had 1,500 ways not to do it." Sometimes I meet people that feel that way about their careers. And so, the idea that we're designing always gives people that sense of agency to reassess.

And my real unstated goal, I guess I'm stating it here so it will be out of the bag is to get this book in the hands of young trainees as early in their careers possible. I actually think that people younger than you and me have handle on this that we didn't have and they're going to reiterate their careers multiple times. This is just a guidebook to how to do it.

John: Well, I have to agree with you. I have seen some examples that I thought "Wow, they had so much insight in an early age and they were really thinking two or three steps further than I ever thought." Again we're such old school I think, we're from a different era but I couldn't see past that horizon so I just kind of plugged along and did my thing until maybe I felt like it just wasn't the right thing anymore.

Again, I mentioned this earlier but if people look at your LinkedIn profile I think it was a good example yourself and again it might not have all been by design at the beginning but it does demonstrate that you can make significant changes, you can evolve, you can shift from you know patient care to some non-patient care position but still doing what you love and maybe like you said what matters.

Dr. Sharon Hull: It doesn't have to be static but people do have constraints on their decisions. And we talk about that in the book. Perhaps when you're young you have fewer constraints. And we enter a time in our late 20s early 30s to maybe our 40s mid 40s where there are a lot of personal constraints. They might be financial, they might be child rearing, they might be geographic. There are lots of reasons people feel stuck in that period. But if they can see light at the end of the tunnel or see that they do have choice, they can come through burnout a little differently, I think. At least that's my hypothesis, we'll see.

John: I think that's right on at least from what I observed. You mentioned the term "agency" a minute ago. We don't use that term very often. Maybe in a corporate environment I might have heard it once in a while it's a bit of jargon but has a certain really applicable meaning to what we're talking about. So, can you explain what that means to you?

Dr. Sharon Hull: I will. I will first say that as a young family physician I was taught the term self-efficacy, the ability to believe I could do something about a problem I was facing. And to me agency is maybe a just a different term, maybe it's more corporate speak, maybe it's more ethical psychological speak. We are the agents of our own lives and we don't talk about that much. That doesn't make us selfish. It does make us responsible for the choices. I have a coffee mug on my desk over here that says "Never complain about what you permit." And when I first saw that quote it hit me right between the eyes. It's like yeah, if you don't like something, figure out how to change it without just creating chaos around you. And the book is about how not to create chaos but to do it intentionally.

John: Yes, it's odd to me that we feel that in spite of being part of one of the most educated professions on the planet we don't feel we have any options and we don't have any control over life once we get locked in and we've finished residency or fellowship, whatever it is. And you kind of feel like "I have to do this, I've invested so much into this role." And that whole thought process holds us back. But we're not actually obligated to do anything.

Dr. Sharon Hull: I actually have two things I'd like to say about that if I could. The first is that I spent a number of years as the dean of students for a medical school. And my job was to run orientation for the first year students and it was about three weeks long. And at the end of three weeks I would meet with them in small groups and I would say "If in the last three weeks you've figured out that this is not the place for you, and this is not the profession for you, could you say that?" And in eight years six or eight years of doing that job no one ever said yes. Three weeks in people felt stuck.

Now the second thing I want to say about that is our friends in law will tell you my law degree teaches me how to think but it doesn't mean I have to be in the courtroom. They see the skills as a doorway to do all kinds of things. And for a long time I was envious of my law colleagues and then I thought "Well, I have some skills that could open some doors for me too. I just need to think about it differently." So, I got fascinated talking to my law friends.

John: When you were just talking about that question you asked your students as a dean, I always kind of looked at it as a conspiracy. I can't imagine any of my instructors professors or other teachers would tell me "Oh, yeah, after you get into this or maybe eventually you want to do something else outside of medicine or something that applies medicine in a different way where you're not subject to being stuck with dealing with insurance companies and all the regulations and the long hours doing in the EMR."

It seems like they're part of that system and they want to continue this system. They don't want to let anybody out of the system and that might be overly cynical I'll admit. And at least you were there asking that question. I personally have never talked to anyone who's had a positive response to a physician in training who was thinking about leaving medicine. They'll usually do whatever they can to keep them there for a lot of practical reasons too.

Dr. Sharon Hull: Some of the earliest informal coaching I did was with medical students who really did figure out the answer to that question that they really didn't want to do clinical medicine. And much to the chagrin sometimes of my superiors I became a safe place for them to talk. And that may have been where I kind of learned my pathway was going to have a place here.

John: As I suspected your superiors weren't necessarily real enthusiastic about that.

Dr. Sharon Hull: There's this whole mentality of societies investing in your training and you owe society back. They've invested in you and this is a calling. There are lots of parts of that myth and it's not entirely mythical you have to decide what part of it applies to you.

John: It shouldn't be a surprise though when you consider that most of us made a decision to go into health care when we were children.

Dr. Sharon Hull: That's where the term agency comes in. I'm the agent of my own career. And sometimes the choices before us aren't great but we make the best one we can in the moment and get really intentional about what's next.

John: Well, there's more about that in the book, and I am going to ask you one more question before you go. But first let's talk about where they can find the book and then tell us the title and the easiest way to get the book when it comes out.

Dr. Sharon Hull: They can find out more about me obviously through LinkedIn and I'm assuming you'll put my LinkedIn in the show notes. But my website is www.mettasolutions.com. Metta, that's the name of my company, Metta Solutions. And on that website they'll find my blog, they'll also find a page devoted to the book which is titled Professional Careers by Design: A Handbook for the Bespoke Life. On the book page are several options for buying it. You can also find it in the common places like Amazon or Barnes & Noble or Goodreads. But that book page on my website collects all of those in one place.

John: Okay, excellent. Well, we are going to run out of time pretty soon now so I'll put those links to everything you mentioned in the show notes, of course. In thinking about your kind of typical clients or my listeners, any last words for any professional who might just be frustrated or unhappy in their career and how to maybe be better at designing it.

Dr. Sharon Hull: Start with what matters. That is my mantra. Start with what matters to you and then figure out how you can get more of that in your life systematically every day and let the list change as your life changes. That sounds like airy fairy kind of stuff but it's really not. It's common sense. My grandmother would understand it. Just start with what matters and the rest does come. The book can be a guide to the technical parts about what you need to deal with.

John: Yes, that's very helpful. Let's start with what matters. Maybe just sit down and start writing your list.

Dr. Sharon Hull: Top ten list.

John: And if you need help you can start by getting the book. All right, Sharon, this has been fun.

Dr. Sharon Hull: It has been fun, John. Thank you.

John: Thanks again for coming. Bye-bye.

Dr. Sharon Hull: Bye-bye.

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Interview with Dr. Lara Salyer – 344

In today's episode, Dr. Lara Salyer explains how she integrates the best of traditional and functional medicine in her practice. In the process, she takes listeners on a journey of career reinvention and personal empowerment. 

Dr. Salyer shares valuable insights and practical advice for practitioners seeking fulfillment and career balance. From the transformative power of creativity to the importance of storytelling and self-expression, listeners are inspired to try something new.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Annual Nonclinical Career Summit Coming Soon!

It's time for the Second Annual Nonclinical Career Summit. It’s called Clinical Practice: Make It Great or Move On. We have 12 top-notch speakers such as Dr. Dike Drummond, Dr. Nneka Una, Dr. Gretchen Green, and Dr. Tom Davis.

We'll learn about creating a cash-based practice, MedSpa, Infusion Center, or other business, protecting yourself legally, and learning a lucrative side gig or investing in real estate.

Admission to the live event is free. If you prefer, you can purchase the recordings and bonuses for a small fee. Please join us on the evenings of April 16 through 18.

Go to nonclinicalcareersummit.com to learn more and reserve your spot today.

Our Episode Sponsor

Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.”

If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat.

Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

Reimagining Healthcare and Integrating the Best Parts

In this engaging podcast episode, Dr. Lara Salyer reflects on her transition from burnout in family practice to discovering functional medicine. During our interview, she emphasized the importance of aligning one's career with personal passions and values. Dr. Salyer highlights the transformative power of creativity and innovation in revitalizing professional and personal fulfillment.

Empowering Practitioners and Cultivating Her Speaking Engagements

Lara describes her new role as a mentor, guiding practitioners through strategies for reclaiming joy and autonomy in their careers. She shares practical tips for crafting impactful speeches and navigating the speaking circuit, emphasizing the value of storytelling and authenticity. Additionally, she explores the significance of boundaries, self-expression, and embracing “messy” progress.

Dr. Lara Salyer's Advice on Career Fulfillment

Find your path to fulfillment with WARM: If I'm feeling stuck, overwhelmed, unhappy, I start with “W.” Whose voice is in my head right now making me feel bad?… then Aim low with tiny steps, Remember your ‘why', and “M” is “Messy moves the needle,” you don't have to be perfect.

Summary

Through engaging anecdotes and actionable tips, Dr. Salyer offers a roadmap for reclaiming passion and purpose. Whether you're navigating burnout or seeking to reignite your professional spark, Lara provides hope and guidance, reminding us that it's never too late to design a career that aligns with our deepest values and aspirations. To get in touch with Dr. Salyer you can find more information and contact her directly on her website drlarasalyer.com.

And if you wish to access any of her programs, you can use the Coupon Code “CATALYST” for a $50.00 discount off the usual price.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Lara Salyer's Website
• Freed.ai Medical Scribe App
• How to Reclaim the Best Parts of Your Career – 120
• Reserve Your Free Spot at the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 344

Integrating the Best of Traditional and Functional Medicine

- Interview with Dr. Lara Salyer

John: Sometimes when rebooting your practice, it's helpful to speak with someone who has a lot of imagination, and that describes today's guest to a T. She first appeared in the podcast in December of 2019, and she was about two years into reimagining herself, at least her approach to patient care. And she's continued to innovate since then, and she's now mentoring clinicians, more than she was at that time. I think that she's a great one to talk to today about remastering, recreating your life and your career. Dr. Lara Salyer, hello and welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Lara Salyer: It's a pleasure, John. I was so excited to receive your email invitation again, and mind blown that it's been four years. I feel like it was just yesterday. We were talking about innovation and transforming healthcare, and look, it continues. I'm happy to talk to your listeners about reimagining healthcare.

John: Yeah, I couldn't believe it either, because I just made a point a few months ago to say, well, I got to go back to my old guests and see what they're up to. And in my mind, your name just stands out. It isn't like something I had to dredge up. It's like, yeah, Laura, she's in the Midwest, she's been doing all these things in Wisconsin. Four years. That is crazy.

Dr. Lara Salyer: It's crazy. We're practically neighbors. But see, this is the beauty of what we've all been through in this global pandemic in the last four years, the world is made larger and smaller. I feel like it's really exploded our ability to connect across the seas and virtually. With the advent of telemedicine laws changing, there's so much cool things and innovations and AI that it's really inspired me. And yeah, I'd love to dive in and just talk about all the changes. Where should we start?

John: Well, let's see. We don't have to redo everything we did last time. I will have a link to the previous episode that has a lot of the information and how you found functional medicine and got involved in that, which I think has escalated exponentially. But anyway, start from there maybe and where we were then. And just touch on some of the things that are new about you and your practice and what you're doing with patients and other physicians.

Dr. Lara Salyer: Sure. Well, this is sort of the example of creating your own career that is a self-expressive vote of the future you'd like to see. And that's really what I embody and I try to use this as my compass as my mantra every day. Just in a one sentence nutshell, I was a burned out family practice doctor, realized I was burned out, not sure if I wanted to stay in medicine, but then fell in love with functional medicine on my last CME and decided that's what I wanted to do. I opened up my practice and we had our interview in 2019 and I talked about what that entailed being an entrepreneur in this space and learning those ropes.

Well, since 2019, I've really enjoyed embracing this creativity of educating patients with online courses and having online group visits every week that provides an ecosystem of support for my patients and really exploring this sandbox of tools that we have right at our disposal to make medicine fun again. And it's naturally been sort of an attracting beacon to other practitioners looking to innovate and to explore some of these options.

I've really amped up my mentoring, not just in the functional and integrative space. I help those practitioners grow and scale a membership practice in their own community using a lot of AI and tech. But I also mentor colleagues in burnout, those that want to tap back into creativity. I graduated from the flow research collective in their high flow leadership, so I can coach how to get that flow acquisition, which for those that don't know, flow is the only time your brain produces all five neurochemicals of happiness. The more you learn how to make your day flow channeled, the happier you are, the more easeful life feels.

And so, I'm enjoying this renaissance of my own personal career, helping practitioners learn how to become and embody their ideal self. And then that naturally just extends into my international speaking career. I had the honor of being invited to the center stage in London last year, last summer, on the largest European medical conference and was able to stand beside some greats that I was honored to have shoulder to shoulder. It just keeps expanding and it's just fun. And like I tell my teens when it stops being fun, now that's the time you need to think of making a shift. But I'm still having a blast.

John: That's a lot to talk about and to consider, but it sounds very positive. I don't know if we're going to get into the flow thing a lot, but maybe we will. But maybe just for our purposes, is that flow state, whether you're working or at home doing something, I'm assuming that's the same thing that in general we talk about when you're in that zone.

Dr. Lara Salyer: Yeah, in the zone. Yes. Just simple. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi coined the term and it's anything from being in a sport or you're doing Tetris or you're balancing your books. It's just being in deep work.

John: Okay. Cool. I wanted to talk about the speaking a little bit because a lot of my listeners ask me about how to get into that. It seems to be kind of a black box. They don't know how to start. And just some tips on becoming a recognized speaker and getting some of the big types of engagements that you've talked about already today.

Dr. Lara Salyer: I've got lots of tips, John. I think I'm a shameless kind of person who is open to feedback all the time. So, be prepared to speak and make mistakes and fumble and keep getting up and trying again. But the key to establishing your own speaking career is finding your story. You have to have a story and everybody has a story. And once you find the story that is underlying this anchoring mission of why you feel compelled to speak, what are you speaking about? For me, it's speaking about healthcare burnout and the intersection of creativity and how we've lost that piece in healthcare.

And I really believe that physicians, if we could be allowed more autonomy to be self-expressive in the way we deliver medicine, we wouldn't have as much burnout. Of course, it's not that simple. If you look at my message, anybody could look at it and go, "Well, that's not the cure to burnout." No, I'm not saying it is. But it gives me the platform to tell my story, to offer things that I've learned that have helped people. I work with residencies and medical schools and I travel and do workshops. I'm able to craft this around my central story, which is I'm a physician who burned out and found a second career. Or third or fourth, however many you want to count. For anybody listening who's thinking, "How can I develop my speaking career?" start looking at your story. What's your story say? What are you passionate about? If anybody stopped you on the street and said, "You have 40 minutes to tell me something that you're passionate about without any slides, without any prep." That is what you need to talk about.

And so, right there, getting the topic and then second, crafting your PowerPoint, working with a mentor. I had my own public speaking coach, and I believe firmly in coaching. And that's part of the underlying result of my mission with working with so many residencies in medical schools and in my mission that I want to make coaching a part of medical school. That every medical student has a coach assigned. Everybody's got somebody there because we are not above needing that kind of executive help.

And so, when you work with a coach, like a public speaking coach, it can help save time and unlock some of the things that you didn't know you were doing and fidgeting. It makes such a difference. I would start there with knowing your story. What does that say about your mission and your vision in the world? And then working with a coach to help you craft that narrative and really make it professional.

John: I think that's awesome. Because when I think about things that successfully communicate, whether it's a book or a presentation, it always includes a story. Either the speaker's story, the writer's story, or somebody else's story, but it always ties back. That gives that great example of the point you're trying to make and it pulls people in, and they want to hear how the story ends. So, that's cool.

Dr. Lara Salyer: Yes. At least for me, I hated being in, and this is just my preference. Whenever I would be in a lecture or in some kind of presentation and listening to the speaker, it always felt empty to me when there wasn't some kind of transformative takeaway. And so, I like having all of my talks have something at the end that the listener gets, whether it's something that they can download or something that they can walk away with and remember you by. If you're looking to make a speaking career, develop that signature talk. Have some kind of takeaway. Like something downloadable. And if you don't have any of the fancy things like a CRM or an autoresponder, if those words don't resonate with you, you can simply just ask them to give you their email and you can send them something. You can be very old school about it. You don't have to be super polished and professional.

John: I think there are other people that think, "Okay, I'd love to have a speaking career." I don't think they're necessarily as committed because they're a little nervous to have a little stage fright. So, how do you get ready? That UK presentation, that was a big deal.

Dr. Lara Salyer: That was a huge deal. Oh my gosh.

John: How did you prep yourself for that?

Dr. Lara Salyer: Oh goodness. Well, it's that fine line of delusional almost OCD prepping and then trusting the universe that it'll be okay. I love the books. TED Talks, Chris Anderson, or Talk Like TED. Those are the two favorite books I have. I also like Rule the Room is another book, that's a resource. And I often listen to a podcast by Grant Baldwin called Speakers Lab. And believe it or not, that has taught me more than anything because he goes into the business of speaking of how to invite people or pitch to people and follow up and all those kinds of things.

I've learned a lot about the business, but when you're coming down to the wire and you're practicing, it's a combination of I would look at my slides because I was allowed to have some slides, but it was a TED style talk. I had 20 minutes to give my one message. And so, I would practice with the slides and then I would go on a walk and I would listen to myself because I recorded myself and I would listen and imagine the slides on my walk. And then I would try to see if I could anticipate the next sentence. I'd pause the recording and see if I could anticipate the next sentence, not so that it was rote memorization because a lot of public speaking coaches would say, "That's awful. You do not want to memorize your talk." You want it to feel like a conversation. And you want to allow for inflection and for moments of improv in a way.

What I would do is divide my talk into four segments of main points and I would try to anticipate, "Oh yeah, there's that next point. I'm going to talk about this." And that's all it was, was a summer of walks with my dog and just really memorizing the next point that was going to happen until I became comfortable that I felt like I could do it without any help.

John: No, that's awesome. Because you can tell, I watched a lot of TED talks in some of the smaller venues. You can tell the speaker is glancing at a monitor or screen or something to remind them of what they're doing. It doesn't really flow and it's okay, the message is good, but when you have a really good speaker, it flows and it's engaging and it goes by like in two minutes.

Dr. Lara Salyer: Yes. And don't be afraid to practice. Before that UK talk, I had other opportunities where people said, "Could you just give a 20 minute? - Oh yes, absolutely." And I remember in Toronto, I was asked to speak at a very large event for naturopathic doctors, and it was going to be broadcasted and I had no teleprompter, nothing, no slides. I thought, "This is even harder than UK. I am on it. Let's do this. This is going to be gritty test time." And I did it. And guess what? There were interruptions. Somebody walked in front of the feed when it was being recorded. There was a person that interrupted the door and I got put off. I didn't remember my next line, but guess what I did? It just took a moment. And that's the thing is when you face that kind of awkwardness and you realize you're not going to evaporate into ashes, it's okay. And you chuckle and you learn how to sidestep.

Everybody wants you to succeed. Nobody is sitting in the audience waiting for you to mess up and going, "There it is. I'm glad she's messing up." They want you to have a great time. So if you fake it till you make it in that moment and be like, "Okay, here we go", that's when you get to be that elevated speaker that people want to hear from because you're relatable.

John: That's great. That's awesome. I love that. And a lot of resources, I wrote those down and we'll put those in the show notes so people that are really interested can take advantage of those.

Okay. We're going to move into helping other clinicians, but I think before we get into that and how you're doing that, I think our listeners need to understand exactly what does your practice look like now? Functional medicine, not everybody even know what the functional medicine is and kind of tied to that. I think you still call what I would call clients patients but there's a distinction that some people make. And I think it's easier in functional medicine than let's say in doing something like yoga. You're not going to call them. If you can capture all of that in the opening of this next section here on how you help physicians.

Dr. Lara Salyer: Sure. Real quick, I do have a license to practice medicine in Wisconsin and Illinois. I have my attorney that comes in and teaches inside my mentorship for practitioners. I stay very, very close to the law. I don't want to call my patients clients. I'm still a physician, so I have a physician patient relationship. But my practice is very tiny. I call it very cozy. And I keep it that way because I have a lot of other hats I wear. Last year I was invited to be the director of practitioner activation for the School of Applied Functional Medicine. Basically I am the mentor for their school. And so, that is a job that I do part-time, but I also have my own mentorship, the Catalyst studio.

And these are practitioners that come in for 12 months and they're with me and they have a bunch of resources online. And we work one-on-one, and we also have weekly masterminding. We call it studio time. And the reason I've created this artistic metaphor is because I want physicians to create their masterpiece, their work-life masterpiece. I don't believe in work-life balance. I don't think that is something we can achieve. I believe it's a masterpiece. It's an integration of work and life. And so, they're with me for 12 months. And then in addition to that, I have one off session.

People that aren't even in functional medicine, they don't even care about integrative medicine. They might be a medical student, a resident, or just an attending who's like, "Hey, I need some inspiration on how can I pedal through some of these emotions, this burnout." I use solutions focused, positive psychology, a little bit of acceptance commitment techniques that help them tap back into flow. And I give ideas and resources and really get them back into what are they doing here. And helping them with decisions. It can be making a decision on the next step for their career or just how to play again as an adult. We forget that and kids are so good at that. I love being almost that little inspirational fairy that can help my colleagues get back into that childlike wonder.

John: Can you give me an example? And it could be even amalgam of many people, but what is the type of person that shows up at the beginning, either for the one-off mentoring or the 12 month? And then how does it look different at the end of that period? I'm just trying to get that so the listener can say, "Hey, that sounds like it's right up my alley."

Dr. Lara Salyer: Yes. That's great. I like to call this the average practitioner. They are frantic, they're rushed, they're stressed. They're feeling almost hopeless and wondering why they chose this career. But they feel stuck like "I have to be in this track." They don't see many options. They've probably not played or had their hobby dusted off the shelf for years. They probably look at you with blank eyes when you said, "When was the last time you did something fun?" They don't even know. They don't have free time. They really are a victim of their calendar. They're really reactive in their calendar planning instead of proactive. That's the typical practitioner.

And then at the end of my programs, I call them the catalysts. The catalysts, they are expansive, open-minded. They're innovative. They are very much in control of their calendar. They're very autonomous. They see those elements in their calendar and time and space and energy. They're boundaried. They're able to really keep and protect that energy and spend it on things that give them joy. They are more tapped into gratitude and creativity. And these catalysts are such a joy.

And so, I can take people through this journey. In fact, I have a 10 hour CME course that people can take online. Completely self-driven. And it helps them kind of walk through the standards that I've found have worked really well for my clients. I call those clients, my mentees, my catalyst. And it helps walk them through some of the basic foundations of finding your flow and finding your anchoring down into your "why" and how to use that throughout your day to bring joy back into focus.

John: On average, is that group of people employed at a large organization where a corporatization of medicine has kind of driven most of them crazy? Or are they in a practice and they're just overwhelmed? They may own it, but it's out of control because they're trying to handle everything.

Dr. Lara Salyer: That's great. For the functional integrative physicians and practitioners inside my 12 month mentorship, those people usually are solopreneurs. They might be employed, they might have a hybrid practice of insurance and cash pay. And these people are really looking how to strategically move that business. How to make it more streamlined and flow channeled. The one-off catalyst advantage, those are the people that sign up for just one or two or three sessions.

I have bundles of packages where they can meet with me one-on-one, and there's nothing to do with business. It's more about personal development. And those come from all walks of life. I have discounts for students and residents because I remember those days, you can't really afford much. And then it can be attendings, it can be nurse practitioners, people that are just curious about personally developing themselves. And they come from all walks of life as well. They could be independent, most of them employed.

My grand goal in my future, my five to 10 goal is I would love to be a chief wellness officer at a large organization because I've enjoyed working in this high level systemic change and seeing the results of what some of these modalities can do for practitioners is really life affirming for me. So, it's just been a wonderful journey.

John: Now as a secret in some of those to really focus on doing what you love and where the flow can occur potentially, and getting rid of the stuff that just drives you crazy. And does that require delegation? Does that require, or can it enable one to say, "Look, I'm a family physician, but I'm not going to do 100% of what a family physician could do. I'm going to focus on something that I like to do and I'm going to get rid of the rest."

Dr. Lara Salyer: Yes. Oh, I love this. It is getting comfortable disappointing other people. I think as physicians, especially family physicians, we are the bottom of the totem pole. We get everything dumped on us and we just get used to serving our patients, saying yes, doing it all. And it's time to push back. And it's okay to have boundaries. This is where I help people with those boundaries in saying, "Listen, if you are literally burning up and you are a miserable shell of a human, you're going to work, you're coming home from work and you are just not happy at all, something's got to change."

Now you can't change overnight the whole system. The system is slowly changing. But we are at a dawn of a new healthcare with AI helping. I love freed.ai. It's a wonderful program that is a charting program where all it does is listen to you and your patient and creates a beautiful SOAP note. I actually interviewed the founders. It's a resident and her husband who's a computer guy, they founded this company. It's phenomenal. And it's things like this that are going to help us fall back in love with medicine and do what we do best, which is being a healer. We are right now data entry clerks and we're not able to delegate because a lot of hospitals are saying, "No, you have to enter in those lab results. No, you have to do it all." And it's crumbling.

I really believe if we hang on, we are almost through the dark ages of medicine and we're about to enter the dawn of where AI can help us and it's suddenly going to be so much fun. It's like driving a Tesla. It's just, "Wow, everything's done for me." And so, hanging on, I think that's my role in this whole structure is helping our colleagues just to hang on and let's find a way through this that can help you stay human while we wait for AI to help. And it might mean take a day off every week and you go to your administrator saying, "I need to be different RVU. I need to back it down." Because we want to want to save you before you go out with the ship.

John: What was that link again to that AI tool?

Dr. Lara Salyer: Yeah, it's freed.ai. And what I love about them is they give you 10 free visits to try them out. You don't even have to put a credit card in. The proof is in there, amazing algorithms and AI. And then when you do, it's really affordable. You can get an industry, your whole institution can get a license, or you can get your own. If you use the code CATALYST, you get $50 off. I'll just give that out there so people can get a discount if they want it.

John: Excellent. I'll tell you and our listeners here why I am so interested in this is because my thing in the past has been "What other options can you do if you're a burned out physician?" But really, 15, 20 years ago, there wasn't a lot of focus on fixing within your own practice or something like your practice. Now I'm trying to get more people like you to say, let's go back to the beginning and take all the good things that you wanted to be when you went through med school and residency. And let's try and get rid of the other crap that doesn't help.

Dr. Lara Salyer: Yes.

John: That's just holding you down. And as we push this, I think we're going to see more of it. So, I appreciate what you're saying.

Dr. Lara Salyer: I'm glad that you've recognized that. I think there is an exodus of people. Their pendulum swung where people were leaving. Sadly, we lose a lot of people to suicide, a whole medical school class worth every year. And there's a lot of physicians that are just retiring early. But I think the pendulum is going to swing back the other way. Like you said, I want to save the career of medicine. I want to make the career of medicine something that still honors the joy and the creativity and the self-expression. Nobody wants to go see a robotic doctor. And so, I really think that we're almost there. We just got to hang on a bit and keep working at it.

John: The thing is not only are physicians frustrated and upset, the patients aren't happy. They're not happy with a five minute visit for something it takes 20 minutes normally and the doctor spends all their time documenting and sending notes in and blah, blah, blah. The whole thing has to change for patients as much as for physicians.

All right. Why don't you spend a couple minutes telling us about your website and what's on your website and how to get ahold of you and all that kind of stuff?

Dr. Lara Salyer: Oh, sure. Absolutely. We'll start to different things. If you're a patient in Wisconsin or Illinois, you can find me on my website, drlarasalyer.com. But I do keep a very, very long waiting list because I devote a lot of my time and passion to our colleagues. So, if you're a physician, a nurse practitioner, and you're curious about what creativity and flow can do to enhance your happiness and joy, again, go to my website, drlarasalyer.com and you'll be prompted through a series of buttons. It'll ask "What are you here for?" And it will direct you to the practitioner page.

And I would encourage you to take the Catalyst Archetype quiz. It's a free quiz. You'll be matched to one of the four archetypes. Are you a fervent flame, a resolute rock, a wise wind, a reflective river? And then it matches you to a two-page plan that will give you suggestions on adult play activities, things that you could do to enhance your hobbies and self-expression.

And also on that page, you'll find opportunities to do a sample session with me, a real one-on-one working session where we can just dive in and start getting you aligned with your best self. And all my stuff is there. If you need a speaker for your next conference, you need a keynote, again, I have a speaking page on my website. I love speaking. I'd love to connect with you. And there's an application form there as well.

John: Excellent. Well, listeners, I think you should take advantage of that, even if you have to skip the next few weeks of podcast listening. Spend that time checking out Lara's website and make a plan to change your life if you're not happy.

All right, Lara, we're going to run out of time here. So, just some more advice, some last minute advice before we go to our listeners who might be unhappy, out of balance, just frustrated and not enjoying their careers in particular. What advice do you have before we go?

Dr. Lara Salyer: I love little acronyms. I'm going to give you an acronym that I use when I'm feeling stuck, when I'm feeling unmotivated or overwhelmed. It's WARM and it goes like this. If I'm feeling stuck, overwhelmed, unhappy, I start with "W" and I ask, "Who's talking? Whose voice is in my head?" Is it the administrators saying, "You need to see more?" Whose voice is in my head right now making me feel bad? Is it my family of origin? Maybe it's an auntie or a grandma or something. Who's talking right now? Am I listening to my own voice or is it someone else?

The next is "A", which is aim low, not aim high. Aim low. Use Tiny Atomic Habits. James Clear is famous for that book. Atomic Habits. Do one tiny thing. Aim Low. What can you do in the next moment, even if it's just your next breath? Aim low. You're looking for tiny evidences of progress that you can find your way out of this mess.

Then "R" which is reason. What is your reason? What is your reason for medicine? Anchor yourself back into your "why." Why are you doing this? And there's many reasons. And it can shift, it could be stability. I wanted a predictable career. I wanted travel, whatever. But look at your reason because it may have shifted and maybe you're aiming towards the wrong North Star. But just look at that reason.

And lastly, "M" which is messy moves the needle. You don't have to be perfect, you don't have to have the answers all right now. You don't have to figure it out, but you can be messy and show up messy in this spot. When you're feeling overwhelmed, stressed, just remember WARM. Who's talking, aim low, find that reason, and then just be messy and give it another day. It's always going to be better.

John: Thanks for that. I'm going to write that down and see if I can apply it to something I'm doing today.

Dr. Lara Salyer: Perfect. It works every time for me.

John: It sounds like it does. I like the last one too. You're saying in there messy moves, avoid perfection. Don't let perfection drive you so much. Just do something in the right direction. I like that.

All right, Lara, this has been fantastic. We're going to have to get together again, probably in less than four years, if I'm still podcasting.

Dr. Lara Salyer: Another leap year.

John: Oh yeah. No, that's not good. All right. I want to really thank you for being here, and I'll put all those links in the show notes and share it. And with that, I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Lara Salyer: Thank you, John. Bye.

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Interview with Dr. Angela Mulrooney – 342

In today's episode, Dr. Angela Mulrooney explains how to create your ideal life and shares her inspirational career journey. 

Dr. Mulrooney's unique journey began as a gymnast turned dancer and choreographer while studying dentistry. She built a thriving practice following graduation. However, she developed an illness that made it impossible to practice. So she transitioned into coaching dentists, leveraging her experience to build a successful coaching company.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Clinical Practice: Make It Great or Move On

Recognize dysfunction, fix it, and protect yourself, or seek better opportunities

In only about one month from now, the second annual Nonclinical Summit will be starting. It’s not entirely nonclinical, however. Sure, we’ll be presenting topics related to fully nonclinical work, such as freelance Medical Legal Prelitigation Consulting, Expert Witness Consulting, and Medical Affairs Regulatory Consulting. But we’ll also have experts talking about whether it’s medicine you need to leave or your job or current boss. And we will discuss several types of clinical businesses that make you the boss, opt out of insurance participation, and build an asset that you can sell later.

If you’d like to learn more, check out the 2024 Nonclinical Career Summit, with a complete list of speakers, topics, and objectives for each presentation.

And just like last year, you can attend the live sessions for FREE, so block your calendar on April 16, 17, and 18 from 7 to 11 PM Eastern/4 to 8 PM Pacific.

Our Episode Sponsor

Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. Debra says, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.”

If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat.

Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

From Dilapidated Practice to Referral-Based Success

Angela pursued her dental career dream by working primarily with children. She took over a rundown practice, revitalizing it over six months by implementing physical and aesthetic changes. And she converted from insurance-based to non-assignment services.

By investing in her skills, including IV sedation, full-mouth rehab, and implants, she transformed the practice into a referral-based success, targeting patients afraid of the dentist.

LinkedIn Mastery and Unleashing Influence

Recognizing the power of LinkedIn in reaching professionals, Dr. Mulrooney strategically utilized the platform to build her coaching businesses, rejecting conventional choices like Facebook and Instagram. Unleashing Influence, her coaching company, emerged from her experience coaching dentists.

Leveraging LinkedIn's Sales Navigator, she refined her approach to connecting with the right professionals. She guided them through a transformational process in her events, ultimately leading them to join her coaching programs. This approach has proven highly effective, resulting in significant success for her clients.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney's Advice to Create Your Ideal Life

If you have been plateauing for a while, you've got to decide if you want to stay plateauing or if you want to get out of your way.

Summary

Dr. Angela Mulrooney's career evolution serves as an inspiration for frustrated clinicians. To connect with her, reach out through her LinkedIn profile, where she actively engages. Additionally, search for her on popular social media platforms or visit her website Unleashing Influence for more information.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Unleashing Influence Program
• Dr. Angela Mulrooney's LinkedIn Page
• How to Start and Grow a Profitable Cash Based Medical Practice – 293
• Do You Want to Live Life and Practice Medicine on Your Own Terms? – 237
• How to Be a Successful Physician Entrepreneur – 123
• Top Five Start-Up Secrets for the Physician Entrepreneur – 087
• Entrepreneur and Business Owner – Interview with Dr. Mike Woo-Ming – 019
• 2024 Nonclinical Summit – 12 lectures & Attend for FREE
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Coaching Services

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 342

Light Your Entrepreneurial Fire and Create Your Ideal Life

- Interview with Dr. Angela Mulrooney

John: For those entrepreneurs listening and watching today, I have a real treat for you. Our guest was working as a dentist and somehow her entrepreneurial side kicked in and she created a very successful referral-based dental clinic, and then later a professional dance company, and then a coaching company for dentists. And then this is morphed into what she's doing now, which we'll get into in today's interview. I'm very pleased to welcome Dr. Angela Mulrooney to the podcast. Hello, Angela. How are you?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Hi. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

John: And I appreciate you being here. Another healthcare professional who has veered off in a direction which I think my listeners would love to hear about. Like we usually do here, why don't you just start by telling us about your background, how you went from being a dentist to doing what you're doing today. You don't have to go into too much detail, but just an overview of what you've been up to the last decade or so.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Sure. I originally was a dentist and I wanted to be a dentist since I was two. It was really a dream come true. And every day that I got going into practice it felt like I was just playing. Power tools and blood. Pretty cool. I did that for the first four and a half years. I worked as an associate, primarily working with children because I was so ridiculously shy. I couldn't look adults in the eye. I focused on kids because I could just tell them stories. And then I happened to run into one of my old bosses who was working in a locum for a 78-year-old dentist. And he was like "I really don't like doing this dentistry. Do you want to take a couple of days off my hands?" So I said, "Sure." That was on a Friday. By Sunday night he called me, he is like, "Ang, can you just take the whole thing? I really don't want to be practicing dentistry." I was like, "Okay."

I had no idea what I was getting into and walked into this practice. It was the most rundown, broken down practice I'd ever seen. The carpet was black because it had never been cleaned. Pretty gross. But every day I walked in there I just stopped and it turned into me going from always saying "I was never going to own a practice" because I was still a professional dancer at that point to me thinking, "Wow, there's potential in everything here. I think I can turn this place around."

I ended up going and seeing the 78-year-old dentist. He unfortunately was dying of bladder cancer and asked him if he was okay with me putting a bid on the practice. And it was funny because before he had always said there was no way he was going to sell it to a woman. He was very old school. And he had heard enough good things from the patients who had come to visit him like they were family. He was like, "Yeah, I would actually love for you to take over the practice." So I did.

And six months into owning it, I really scraped everything that was in there. Rebuilt the whole practice physically and aesthetically and also went from taking insurance to not taking insurance. I went from an assignment practice to a non-assignment practice and went and started investing in my skills to be able to serve.

What I saw was potential in the practice was these people who were terrified of the dentist because the old dude was pretty rough. I went and got my IV sedation. I did my full mouth rehab, implants, all these things. And that's how I created a referral based practice because most people do not want to work with patients who are afraid of the dentist because it takes a lot of time.

I had really a blue ocean market and started just sending out letters and referral pads. And every month on the week that the referral pads went out, we got a whole rush of referral of patients who either needed IV sedation or who were terrified of dentists.

So, that was awesome. I got the practice to the point that I wanted it to be at. And then I got injured out. I ended up with focal dystonia, which had been kicking in slowly over time. And then finally during the middle of a surgery, my hand completely stopped working. I couldn't pick up my drill. So, it was the last day I practiced dentistry, which was a really scary day. And so, that put me on a completely different path to start doing other things with my life.

John: All right. Did you say you were a professional dancer in there?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Yes.

John: Explain a little bit about that. We got to know.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Yeah. Actually, I was originally a gymnast as a kid and then when I went to university, the biggest social club was the University of Saskatchewan Ballroom Dancing Club. I was like, "Okay, well, that's where everyone else is so I'll go there." And the first year after I was in the club, they started asking me to teach. And I'm like, "No, no, I'm trying to get into dental school. Don't distract me." And then I got into dental school and I'm like "Please distract me, let me have a position." I started teaching and then I turned pro the day that I graduated dental school. And so, I had those two parallel careers. I would go into the studio at 05:00 or 06:00 in the morning, go and train until my shift started. And then when my shift was done, I would go back to the studio and teach. I had two careers going at the same time pretty much until I got injured.

John: Did that interfere then with the dance as well or did you end up teaching that later or at the same time? How did that fit in?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: With the dystonia, it affected styling because it was actually this very famous picture of me with my hands are supposed to be like this. So, it affected styling and sometimes control of my arm, but we just built choreography around it and got it. We just made it work.

John: Okay. Then what did you do after that? You got very entrepreneurial after all this happened from what I know. So, go on from there.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: After I got injured, everyone was telling me that you built this brand, you're known in the market, you're known to patients, you're known to the dentist to keep going with it. You can run this as a CEO and not practice clinical dentistry. I was like, "Okay, I guess I can do that." The unfortunate part was I had invested so much in my skills, I had to bring in four different associates part-time to try and cover off the skills that my patients were used to receiving. That was a bit of a headache. And after two and a half years, I'd been through the global financial crisis when I first bought the practice. And then I was in Calgary, which is an oil-based city. And the 2015 oil crash, the economy was dropping super fast. And I just was like "You know what? Every time I go into the practice my heart hurt because these people don't care as much about patients as I did." It didn't feel that way.

And so, I decided it was time to just pass the torch to someone else and start moving on with my life. I decided to sell the practice, I fire sold it, and passed it on to someone else. And honestly, the day that the deal went through, official ownership transferred, it was like this weight was lifted off me and I felt released to go and do new things. So, it was interesting how much that weighed on me trying to keep this thing alive that just wasn't a fit anymore.

John: Okay. Now I know ultimately you began at some point teaching other people how to become entrepreneurs and pursue their dreams. But take us through the way that developed or the steps to getting to that.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Yeah. After I sold the practice, I took a year away from dentistry because everyone knew who I was and what had happened. And everyone that I met in the dental world was pity. And I didn't deal very well with pity. I was having enough problems just keeping it together. So, I stepped away, spent a year just building my professional dance company.

And in that time what happened was the pieces of "why" things had happened started to make sense. I was like, okay, I've been through some really strange things from the owner dying halfway through me buying the practice to getting sued by my team to worst case scenario of being injured out of my career. So, I decided to take all the lessons of what I've done and create my coaching company for dentists. And really what my goal was, it was to help them to build a brand but also find their passion in dentistry. Because a lot of dentists really don't like dentistry and they're doing things on a daily basis that they don't like. My goal was to help them to get passionate.

That went on for about two and a half years. And how I built that company was actually getting on LinkedIn, posting content, starting conversations. And in a year of putting effort into LinkedIn, I went from 200 to 12,000 industry followers.

John: Wow.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: And so, then people started to go, "How did you do that? And can you do that for me?" I started to take a few different colleagues' accounts and I said, "I don't promise anything. I don't know if what I did was a complete unicorn or if I can replicate this, but I will try." I started working on their accounts that I was actually able to replicate the results. So that's where unleashing influence, the original iteration of it was a social media agency for professionals.

And so, that came out of me building my business coaching company for dentists. And that became an official company on January 17th, 2020. March 17th, 2020, Canada got shut down and so exactly two months the day I had some big decisions to make because I had a couple of team members. I had three different companies. I had my dance company, the business coaching company, and the social media agency. And I told the people in the social media agency to buckle in, keep yourself healthy, get lots of sleep because we are going to take this to the moon. And by 10 months into the pandemic we had gone from two and a half full times to 14 full-time team members. So, it just took off.

The dental coaching company got shut down because dentistry got shut down. Dance company got shut down because we weren't allowed to be near each other. I definitely picked the right pony at that point. And then by the end of the year I was like, "I don't want to be in lockdown in snowbank anymore in Calgary." I made the decision that I was exiting Canada to go hang out in a tropical place for at least 12 months. I want to avoid snowflakes for 12 months. So, I bought a one-way flight to Nicaragua and arrived there on January 21st, 2021.

John: Wow. That's a lot. Now I could ask you a thousand questions, but I want to go back because your experience with dentists applies I think to physicians as well. And so, I'm just curious when that thing was working and you were going to even expand it, what were the things that dentists could do with their practices that were unique to each of them? In other words, it's like with physicians. We're cookie cutter. We are family medicine, we all do the same thing, we get bored, that gets tedious and so forth. But I can imagine there are things you can specialize in certain things or you can focus on certain things. So, just give me a glimpse of some of the things that you helped dentists do before we get into the rest of it.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: For sure. Well, what happens is we're trained in university to be generalists and you're not going to be good at everything. And so, if there's things on your schedule that make you go, "Ugh, do I have to do this today?" Or if there's a patient that you see that you feel that way about, why are you doing that to yourself?

John: Oh boy, I've had those feelings. Yeah.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Yeah. Life is way too short. So, if you can be comfortable saying, "Okay, I no longer do root canals. Maybe I don't do surgery anymore, maybe I don't do kids." And focus in on the skills that you're actually talented at and passionate about. Yes, you're going to have to send some people out or you're going to have to bring an associate in to cover that stuff. But what's going to happen is you're going to get better, you're going to get more niched into your genius in that skill and you're going to be so much happier doing it and patients are going to feel that.

So, if you are not a good jack of all trades, which let's be honest, nobody is. If we can start getting away from that jack of all trades, they have to give us a jack of all trades education in university because they have to expose us to everything, but it doesn't mean we have to do everything forever. If you can hone it down to the things that you actually like doing and focus around that, you can build a practice, you can make money doing anything, let's be honest. But you have a professional degree, you have a designation that is recognized by the public. If you say you're a doctor, you say you're a dentist, people have the gist of what you're doing. It's pretty easy to market it and just focus on exactly what you like to do and then either fill in the gaps with an associate, as I said, or refer those patients out. But you can design a practice around anything that you want. There's no legalities about saying no to root canals, saying no to surgery, saying no to whatever you don't want to be doing.

John-: Yeah. I can imagine in the US where you'll say a family physician, you're on some kind of Medicare panel, you can't necessarily refuse. But if you say, "Look, okay, I'm just not going to do that anymore. I'm going to do this part of my practice. And if you don't like it, go somewhere else." That's fine. I've not really heard anyone really emphasize that aspect, but it sounds very effective. I appreciate that.

Okay, now jump forward. Basically you had started this agency, it was a social media type company. What does that really look like? I'm trying to imagine who were on that team, and maybe just explain a little more detail as to what that business looked like and was comprised of. It sounds interesting.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Sure. There was 14 full-time creatives. I had everything from copywriters to graphic designers to people who were doing video editing for me. I had one manager in place. But yeah, pretty much it was almost 14 full-time creatives. And so, there was pods working on different clients. There was lots of little moving pieces in it. And I'll be honest, there's a reason I sold the agency. It's a lot to manage because there's so many moving pieces and you have to be relying on people to keep up. And I found I had to build a lot of redundancy in because at that time there was so much turmoil in the employment market as well. So, someone would get offered another job and they'd be like, "Okay, I'm moving over there." So then you're quickly replacing. We always had two of everything and a backup plan for that, which was really stressful, especially when there was a shift. So, I was losing a lot of sleep over my agency, which is why I ended up selling it.

John: Now, who are the clients? What type of people or companies were they?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Most of my clients were actually coaches, consultants, and speakers. Because what happened when we had the shutdown, all the events were gone. Their way of being able to go and hang out and have coffee with people or speak from the stage and get clients, all those in-person marketing tactics were off the table. And a lot of the speakers as well, and even the coaches, sitting in front of a camera and trying to be entertaining when you don't have a thousand people in the room who are giving you energy, there was people who were losing their career because they couldn't pull it together on camera.

A lot of them were coming to me to be training, "How do I use my hands? How do I use the space? How do I use the actual camera to be engaging so that I can get back on track?" Because the pandemic landing zeroed the field for speakers. These people who were famous for 30 years, who were amazing in a room were terrible on camera and they realized it very quickly. And so, they had to develop a new skill set. I acquired a lot of those coaching them on camera as well as building out their social media presence so they could go out and reach and hunt new people into their business.

John: All right. Very good. Now that brings us up to almost the present here, unleashing influence. Is that right?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Yes.

John: Okay. Tell us about that in more detail and then I'll have some more questions about that.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Sure. After moving to Nicaragua, I started to really realize I did not want to work hundred hours per week. That had been my norm for the past two or three years. And so, I started to realize, "Okay, this social media agency with all these team members is just not good for my health." I sold it to one of the team members and then I was like, "Hey, this coaching company for dentists, this is not really where my heart is." Because every time I walk into a practice and or talk to a practice that's not as passionate about dentistry as I am and I'm like "I want people to practice on my behalf because I couldn't anymore" it was like someone ripped a scab off my heart. So, I decided to sell that one as well and just go all in on what I did best, which was really cracking clients open, helping them to see their potential, see what they could be in the marketplace. And also helping them to really step into their genius and fully own that and be able to burn away everything that didn't belong.

So, that's what I hunkered down to. And for three months after I made that decision, there was money coming in after selling the other two companies, but it wasn't super confirming that I'd made the right decision. So, I was a little scared. And then about three months to the day after selling the last company I got a deposit from a client which was paying in full for my services. And it was more than I would've made full-time working as a dentist. I was like, "Okay, that's a sign. This is going to work." The ball is rolling so I let it keep rolling.

I let that develop out and because I changed what I was showing on LinkedIn, people started to contact me saying, "How can I work with you?" And suddenly my book of business increased and I was like, "Oh geez, if we keep going down this path, I'm going to be back to working a hundred hours a week, back to being addicted to be an entrepreneur." And that's not what I want.

So, I took a step back and looked at what I was doing and really I was saying the same thing multiple times a week. I had these really talented clients who were feeling very alone in their journey. When you step out of corporate and step into being an entrepreneur, people think you're insane because you've taken a massive risk, especially after you've had a 30, 40 year career and now you're like, "Yeah, I'm going to do what I want instead." They had a lot of misunderstanding from the community and they also had a bunch of genius.

I decided to have some hard conversations and say, "Okay, this one-on-one thing is not working and I want you to trust me to do this group coaching thing and let's just see what happens." And it was like magic. What used to take so many years to get people through, in 90 days, we could collapse two years' worth of work into 90 days and get the massive outcomes. So, that's what Unleashing Influence became, is a coaching company and that's what I do for a living now.

John: Awesome. I think the next part is going to sound to my listeners perhaps as an advertisement for you, but really I want to hear the cases. Give us specific examples of some of the success that your clients have had just because it's fascinating and we can learn from what they learned. So, just a few cases would be fantastic.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: One of my clients, she was former CIO of NASA.

John: That's a minor job. Yeah, right.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: After 40 years in the tech industry, she came to me and she's like, "Okay, I don't want this anymore, I want to pivot." And originally she thought she wanted to be a professional speaker and I'm like, "Well, let's have a conversation about professional speaking looks like." Because I had done that before the pandemic had hit. And so, after our conversation, she's like, "Okay, I want to do what you're doing." I'm like, "Okay, let's do that."

She went through the accelerator with the other people in the group and she was able to close $150,000 the first month of working out of the accelerator. She was able to pivot fast and get her programs up and running.

I'll give you a dental specific one. She was making good money but she was working all one-on-one. So, she could only take on 10 practices and she was also traveling to the practices. And we have taken all the travel off the table and made it all online because she was like, "I want to be able to be geographically free like you. Not necessarily traveling the world, but at least have some freedom to move around without being stuck. I have to go to this practice this week, I have to go to this practice this week."

We were able to redesign her program to 10 times her hourly rate and decrease how many hours she was working a week by a 10th. Then that freed her up to design a new program that allows her to keep condensing things and stay with the group programs and be able to move that into the future.

So, what I really like doing is helping people to get away from the one-on-one because if you've done any one-on-one, you go in with your idea and someone comes in with whatever happened that day and they're knocking you off.

John: I see.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Off your path. And you're like, "Okay shoot, we didn't stick to the curriculum." But with group, especially if you're doing a high caliber per group, and I recommend creating boutique groups, not your down sell of "Oh, I'll do one to a thousand." No, these are six people in your group and they start together and they finish together and they're going through a very specific curriculum and there's a very specific outcome that they are going to be achieving. People are so dedicated to that because no one wants to show up being the kid who's like, "Well, the dog ate my homework." They're all high caliber individuals. The dog didn't eat your homework, you just didn't do it. So, it's a very different approach versus one-on-one. And what I found is what I help people to do is some of the fluff that they were putting into their one-on-one coaching, we get rid of that. It's like, "What is the 5% that is creating 95% of outcomes?" That's all that goes in your program. So, that allows us to time collapse because they're not spending time on fluff and then the outcomes become huge.

John: Okay. I hear questions coming in right now. One of the question is going to be without going into too many specifics is what did the NASA person do in terms of just what was the general feel that they went in where they could generate that with just refocusing and reapplying some of the things that you've taught her?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: She stayed in the tech industry. As a woman in tech, she shouldn't have been able to achieve what she did achieve with being the gender that she was being in the generation that she was. She goes in and works with Fortune 500 companies and helps a cohort of women to be able to raise their hand be like, "Okay, here's the innovation I want to bring into this company. Here's what I want for it." They're helping to elevate the company and they're also helping to elevate their own status within the company because that's what she did her whole career. So, we just took what she naturally did. This is what I do with everyone is, "What do you naturally do? How can we take what's happening in your beautiful brain and turn it into a curriculum that we can teach other people how you naturally did that?"

John: One thing I would add to that, and it sounds like I'm maybe disagreeing with her, but actually if you're a minority, if you're gender is woman or whatever, anything that's different companies are looking for that.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: They are now. Yeah.

John: Don't let that hold you back. Let's boom, let's do it. All right. That's awesome. Okay, other examples? Have you worked with many clinicians as a background doing something like this, abandoning the old?

Dr. Angela 0Mulrooney: Yeah, I've worked with a few dental clinicians as well. Some of them are getting injured out and they're like, "I can see the end coming" which is nice if you can see the end coming. And some of them are just like, "I'm just done. I just want to move on to other things." And again, take what they naturally do that is so unnatural to everyone else and be able to teach them a process to get to the next level.

John: Okay. Now let me ask you, there was another question I had. I'm going to ask you about LinkedIn for sure.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Sure. That's my favorite topic.

John: Yeah, that's what I thought. The groups, and I think you mentioned this on your website, but what you sounded like you were describing is what some people call a mastermind. It's like group coaching but you're all holding each other accountable. Is that a separate thing, the mastermind, or is that just basically part of this process?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: The first thing that they have to go through is the pivot accelerator. That gives them the foundation. I'm taking whatever they've got. If they already have one-on-one coaching or if they're coming from corporate and building out a new program, I do what's called a "crack you open" session. They always say that it's like "You took a look at my soul." And then you look at my experience, your expertise, passion, and then I package them and give them their brand in the marketplace. Then the accelerator is building out everything from building out their personal brand, learning how to be good on camera to create awesome content, building out their curriculum, learning how to actually sell themselves because selling for another company versus selling for themselves is a different story. And then also all the tech that they need behind it so that they can run a seven figure company with a part-time VA supported by a tech platform for it. That's the first level that they have to get through. And then once they graduate, then they can qualify to become part of the Badass Entrepreneurs Club, which is what we do to continue to become masterful at the program that they created while also scaling it to the next level.

John: Very nice. All right, we're going to get on LinkedIn, but why don't you go ahead and tell us your website URL so we at least have that now before the end of the episode.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Sure. It's unleashinginfluence.com.

John: Okay. That's easy. Unleashing influence. Of course, that'll be in the show notes. Now tell me why do you like LinkedIn so much? It sounds like you use it a lot. And I don't know if you use it to find clients or to just promote yourself. Just tell me your LinkedIn story.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: LinkedIn is a beast. And a lot of professionals, including medical, dental, avoid LinkedIn. When I was first building my business coaching company for dentists, they're like, "You need to be on Facebook, you need to be on Instagram." I'm like, "My bet is on LinkedIn." Because no one else was using it. I was able to build a six figure company in six months just leveraging LinkedIn. And all I was doing was sending out messages, putting out content that was speaking to what I believed in and that got me clients. Then when I built the social media agency for professionals, LinkedIn again was our main tool. And I have dabbled with Facebook. I've tried Facebook ads. Meta has now eaten my lunch a few times without giving me a single client. $60,000, $70,000 worth of ads with no return. Yeah. I'm not a fan of Meta. But it's still a good platform, it's just not good for me and for the clients that I'm going after.

You have to really pick your platform based on what are you offering and who are your clients. There's tons of people who do well on Facebook. There's tons who do well on Instagram. For the clients that I work with, they're professionals speaking to professionals. That's why LinkedIn is so powerful. Yeah, that's how I built a social media agency. That is how I've built Unleashing Influence as it currently stands. All my clients come from LinkedIn.

John: Now, when you are using LinkedIn, I've never used an add-on software or tool for LinkedIn. You are just using basic LinkedIn, maybe Premier. How do you use LinkedIn and how do you reach people? Are you just one at a time reaching out?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: We use Sales Navigator. With all my clients we get really specific about what are the degrees that we should be going after. Sometimes it's gender specific. Some of my clients only work with men, women, some of them only work with men. And then it's also figuring out what year would they have likely have graduated to be a certain age. We comb through those details. Sometimes it's also specific to a part of the country. Sometimes it's specific to a part of the world. It depends on the time zones that they want to work in and whatnot.

But we do get very specific about those things because LinkedIn has taken away people's ability to spam and behave badly. Now you only get 20 new connections per day on average. And so, you want to be very careful with how you're spending those 20 connections, especially if you want to get profitable fast, you want to be getting in touch with the right people. The more drilled down you can get into that as to the things that I talked about, the better off you are. And then not only do you need to be finding the right people, you need to be sending the right message to them.

I always talk about being polarizing, and it's not to be a badass or anything like that. It's just to be like you either want people to be a "yes" or "no." Not a "maybe." Because you don't have time to be talking to people who are "no." The people who are "yes", that's what you want to figure out. And you want to slowly get them dialed down by having conversations with them, getting them into an event and then getting them onto a call to become part of your program. And the faster you can push people out who are not appropriate, the faster you're going to get the result.

And a lot of people, I'm going to refer to my nationality here, are very Canadian about this and they're like, "But I started a conversation so I have to finish it." And it's like, "Well, you don't actually." You can politely find your way out of it. And lots of people, they don't come back onto LinkedIn for like six months. The fact that you didn't respond to someone who was not appropriate to you, it's not going to be a big deal. No one's going to shoot you over that.

John: I like it. Good advice. What I noticed when I'm looking at your website, and I actually signed up for one of your courses, I think it was one of the intros, but I think you used that. So, explain how that works for those that might be the right process. You have something out there, you have a LinkedIn profile, maybe you're reaching out to people. I gather the thing you want to do is just get them into that first exposure to you at some level. So, just map that out for our listeners.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Right. After we found the right people, we're going to send a message, start a conversation, and then I take over the conversation until I get them to the point where I'm like, "Okay, this seems like the right fit of person." If they're like, "I really need to talk to you because I've shown them what I do", then I will get on a call with them. But I don't really want to close them on that first call because I want them to have time with me in the room. That's what my events are for. I do five day challenges and five hour intensivess. And what those are is me taking people through what it would be like to be in my classroom, and helping them to move into a transformation. Usually what I focus on is a mindset transformation. I'm going to give you technical things to do as well, but the biggest shift is getting out of your own way. And we talk a lot about burning things away, which is usually what's holding people back. Because they're like, "Oh, but I've always done this" and so I need to keep doing it. They carry all this garbage with them and they keep redoing the things that aren't actually making a difference. So it's like how do we pair this down to the 5% that's giving you 95% results.

And so, when people experience that, they're either a "yes" or a "no" for actually becoming part of my program, which makes it easy for me. And I'm also a "yes" or a "no" for them being part of my program because I'm seeing how do they behave in the room? Do they play well with others? Are they willing to be vulnerable? Because I ask some pretty hard questions in it. So, I want to make sure that they are actually going to be willing to be truthful, not posture about what is actually happening in their life.

And also are they responsive to inputs? If they're like, "Oh no, no, no, I already knew that", they're not really likely to be coachable. That's going to make it not very fun when they're in my accelerator, or intensely trying to get through things, resistance is not great. For people who are resistant, I'll recommend that they do the Unleash Your Badass Self Profitability, it's a 30 day mindset program, and to see how they come out on the other side of that. Because it really makes it clear what your programs are, what your resistance is, what has been holding you back. But yeah, it gives people, for my clients to use it as well because of the same reasons. You get to see who's in the room, you get to see how they act, you get to see if you're a good chemistry together or not and decide whether you want them in your program.

John: Interesting. Yeah. It reminds me of someone I heard say when asked the question of whether they're interested in something. If it's not a "hell yes", then it should be a "no." That's the old adage. Okay, we are actually out of time. We went over a little bit, not a big deal, but we are going to have to wrap up. Actually, if you want to tell us anything more about what you do and convince some of the listeners to get off their something and take action, I'll give you a couple minutes to do that and then we'll wrap up.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Sure. My suggestion is if you have been plateauing for a while, you've got to decide if you want to stay plateauing or if you want to get out of your way. And if you come to one of the events, either the five day intensive or five day challenge or five hour intensive, you are going to see things about yourself that you can't unsee that are going to propel you forward. It will make you break through your plateau. It's really hard to go back to what you were before the event started. So, if you are feeling stuck and you're looking for possibilities and want to get some ideas, I highly recommend that you attend one of those.

John: And that would apply to even someone who's maybe unhappy in their clinical situation now, but still wants to see patients somehow, but just needs to have a breakthrough or something that would apply to them as well. Correct?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Absolutely. Absolutely.

John: Okay, good. Because I tend to get focused on taking people out of practice and move them into utilization management or this or that or starting some kind of company. But there's really no reason why they can't apply these principles to what you're doing now and just make it like you said, something that you love to do and get rid of all the stuff you hate. Okay. Again, how's the best way to get ahold of you?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: The best way to get ahold of me is on LinkedIn. My profile is Dr. Dr. Angela Mulrooney.

John: Okay. That's easy to find and I'll put that in the show notes. We've got your website, unleashinginfluence.com, which I'll put in the show notes as well. We've learned a lot here in the last 30 minutes. This has been fantastic, Angela. I really thank you for taking time on your world travels. We didn't tell the listeners when we started, where are you right now?

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: I'm currently in Paris and in two days I will be moving to Greece.

John: Paris, Illinois. No, I don't think so. Paris, France, and going to Greece next. Oh, that is awesome. And I guess you are working obviously.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Yeah.

John: All right, with that Angela, don't hang up on me, but we're going to say goodbye for the podcast. I really appreciate you coming here and I hope to talk to you again soon.

Dr. Angela Mulrooney: Perfect.

John: All right, bye-bye.

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The post Light Your Entrepreneurial Fire and Create Your Ideal Life appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

What's New and the Cost of Coaching – Episode 327

In today's episode, John shares what's new, and explores the cost-benefit considerations of career coaching. This topic was triggered by a podcast listener's question. It is a common concern of those seeking a major career pivot, and are considering whether to hire a coach to help them navigate the process. 

He guides listeners on how to discern the right type of coach, considering multiple factors, including the cost. Before getting into that topic, he also provides an update regarding what's new with NewScript, the Nonclinical Career Academy, and former podcast guests.

Our Show Sponsor

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Did you know that you can sponsor the Physician Nonclinical Careers Podcast? As a sponsor, you will reach thousands of physicians with each episode to sell your products and services or to build your following. For a modest fee, your message will be heard on the podcast and will continue to reach new listeners for years after it is released.  The message will also appear on the website with over 8,000 monthly visits and in our email newsletter and social media posts. To learn more, contact us at john.jurica.md@gmail.com and include SPONSOR in the Subject Line.

Understanding the Value of Expertise in Coaching

John explains his perspective on using a coach to accelerate one's professional advancement. He challenges the perception that coaching should be priced solely based on the hours spent, asserting that it's about the value derived from the coach's expertise. He explains the importance of coaches committing to tangible results, drawing parallels to his experience as a CMO where outcomes were paramount.

Choosing the Right Coach for Your Goals

John discusses the importance of selecting a coach aligned with your objectives, emphasizing that experienced coaches, despite their higher fees, offer valuable expertise. He touches upon the price range, mentioning that fees can vary, from a few thousand dollars for shorter sessions to potentially higher amounts for longer-term coaching. He advises prospective clients to carefully assess a coach's approach and seek references before making a decision. 

Summary

The best coaches are well-trained, with years of practical experience. Many have expertise in specific industries and serve as mentors and consultants. The cost of hiring a coach can be significant. But in most cases, those costs are justified by the improved lifestyles, career advancement, and higher salaries the clients achieve as a result of their coaching. 

As explained during the episode, Dr. Debra Blaine has recently released her 4th novel. It is called The Meriki Effect and can be found at most large bookstores and here on Amazon (this is an Amazon affiliate link).

And Dr. Andrew Wilner is releasing the 100th episode of his popular podcast called The Art of Medicine on December 10th. It is an eclectic collection of interviews that will entertain and educate listeners like you. It can be found on all major podcast channels, including iTunes, Buzzsprout, and The Art of Medicine on YouTube.

And if you'd like to listen to Dr. Wilner's interview with Dr. Blaine from three years ago, that can be found RIGHT HERE on YouTube.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Why Physicians Should Not Underestimate the Value of Coaching – 274
• More On How to Hire a Suitable Physician Career Coach – 216
• How Do I Choose the Best Coaches Mentors and Masterminds for Me? – 208
• Top Reasons Why Coaching Is So Essential for Healthcare Leaders – 197
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 327

What's New in My World and Is Coaching Worth the Expense?

John: Okay, before I get into the actual topic for today, I'm going to tell you a little story, which obviously will relate to the question. There was a time in Russia when all religions were basically banned. Churches were closed. There were no gatherings allowed to pray, and they were being persecuted. It doesn't mean that all the activities stopped, of course, because you can't really keep people from worshiping if that's what they've been taught and what they grew up doing.

But anyway, after a while, things did loosen up and the brave believers could go back to church. There was a priest in a very small town who began to spend time every day in his church. And the mayor or magistrate of that town didn't like it. He was still against having those kinds of gatherings and allowing people to do that. He sent a soldier to stand at the front of the church every day at the front, at the door to intimidate the priest when he would go over there. When he tried to enter the church, the soldier was to demand the answer to questions. The questions were the following. Number one was, who are you? And the other was, why are you here? And so then the priest would have to take a moment and quietly and without being too aggressive, answer the questions. And then the soldier would begrudgingly let him in.

This went on every day. The priest was going every day. The soldier was there every day, rain or shine, snow, whatever. And week after week and month after month, this soldier would ask, "Who are you and why are you here?" And the priest would adjust his answers over time as he had more time to try and come up with answers. But finally things really loosened up. And the soldier informed the priest that day would be his last day because he was being reassigned and being no longer a soldier at the door.

The priest looked at him and he said, "Sir, when you finish your career as a soldier, I'd like you to come back here and resume your duties. Because you have no idea how much you've helped me by forcing me to answer those two questions each day for myself, who am I and why am I here?"

I like that story. And honestly, I heard that story from a bishop who was residing over a Catholic mass in Lourdes, France. You can imagine that the setting was kind of interesting, and I won't go into too much, but I had never heard that story before. And so, it has stuck with me.

But it relates to coaches, because for some coaching, that's kind of the crux of their coaching. "Why am I here? Who am I? What do I stand for? Who am I? Why am I here? What are my goals? What are my plans?" Things like that.

The question that I was asked earlier this week was pretty straightforward. Basically, described what he wanted, what his situation was, why he was looking to find a new career. And he had contacted several coaches with the information and had told him what he wanted, what he needed.

And one of the coaches said, "Well, she was going to provide three hours of coaching, split up three separate hours, and it was going to address the three issues that he really had asked her to address." And she was going to charge somewhere between $2,000 and $3,000 to do that. And so, the follower or the listener from the podcast that emailed me said that to him that sounded kind of "steep", it sounded kind of expensive particularly since it was going to be limited to three hours. Maybe he did the math, I don't know, but he was maybe expecting a lower number. I provided my answer, and what I'm going to do now is sort of doing an extended version of the answer that I provided to him.

Thinking about my answer to this and this issue, brings up another story, actually. We can call it a parable, but I think this one is actually real. But there was a factory, actually, a publisher owned a multimillion dollar offset press that it used to print weekly tabloids. And one day the press came to a screeching halt. It just died. It made a really loud noise, stopped running, and that was it. The people working at the print shop, they were working on this massive press, tried everything they knew to get it running again. The operators, the maintenance staff, they even had mechanical engineers at the plant, and they were unable to get that machine to run again. They were out of business temporarily until they either replaced the machine or got it fixed. The operations VP called around to all of her colleagues to try to identify someone who might know how to solve this problem, recounting everything that they had tried so far.

And there was one name that came up several times during those calls. The VP reached out and contacted this consultant, made arrangements to come by the next day. Now, I said the word consultant, and when I'm talking about consultants and coaches, there's a lot of overlap. Sometimes I'll use those terms interchangeably because when we're talking about career coaching, a lot of that is consulting too, because you're not just doing the generic things that a coach would do, which are very similar to what a therapist would do, but you get into a lot of specifics when you're doing career coaching as to how to apply, where to apply and that kind of thing.

This consultant spoke to everybody who ran the press, everybody who tried to repair it. He looked at the machine for about 30 minutes, made a few adjustments, and he was able to get that press running a few minutes after doing all of that. The thing was, the VP was pretty upset when the consultant handed her a bill for $15,000 for repairing the machine. And she asked him how he could justify $15,000 for about one hour's worth of work. And what the consultant told him was, "Look, you didn't hire me as an hourly employee telling me what to do. You needed my expertise. No one else could have solved this problem. I spent the last 30 years acquiring unique experience and knowledge to be able to fix this particular problem."

And so, that wasn't what the $15,000 for. It wasn't his time there, his ability to remove a piece of the equipment or whatever it was. Knowing what to do, having seen that kind of problem before, reaching into their mental toolbox and figuring out, "Okay, this is what's going to solve this problem."

And I'm sure the other part of the argument was, "Look, if I hadn't come today and solved this problem, you would probably at best be able to get the manufacturer to come out here in two or three days and maybe solve the problem within the next few days or even a week. And by that time, you would be way beyond $15,000 worth of lost revenue, not to mention a lot of unhappy customers."

I use that again as an example of what we're talking about in coaching and consulting. So, you have to change the way you look at this. First of all, what I know is that the most experienced and effective coaches will probably charge the most for their time. And if you're thinking about it, let's say you're applying for a job as a physician or a clinician, let's say an APN, PA or whatever, pharmacist, you're going to be making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

If you're a physician, it could be $300,000, $400,000 a year and whatever job you're going into, whether it's clinical or nonclinical. And to expect to hire an effective coach for $100 an hour or $200 an hour for you to land a job that's going to stop a lot of your problems, make you happier or make you less stressed, uses your skills. There's a lot that goes into that. You should expect to be paying that person just doing the job you would be applying for can make $200 or $300 an hour. So why would they devote time and sharing their expertise with someone for less than that at least.

And the thing is, if you need specific information, this is where I'm talking about the expertise of a really focused consultant or coach. Let's say you want to get a particular job in a particular industry that's going to pay very well, and that means the coach has probably had that job or has hired someone to that job, knows the job description, knows what the must haves and the nice to have skills or experiences needed to land that job would be, then it's going to be worth a multiple of that $200 to $300 an hour.

And again, if you're talking about just general life coaching, it's going to be on the lower end because there's just general principles that can be applied. But if you also want to get in, I need specifics of how to write my resume, how to send out a cover letter, where do I apply? What's the quickest? There's some things that you have no idea.

For example, for some jobs in pharma, let's say, you really should apply to a CRO rather to a pharmaceutical company. And a good coach that is let's say addressing pharmaceutical jobs in the pharmaceutical industry will have that kind of knowledge. Someone in hospital health systems, they're going to have specific knowledge as to what the CFO, the CEO and the CMO are looking for in hiring a medical director or even a VP for somebody in that facility.

Another way to look at it is to consider what is your goal when you're thinking about engaging a coach? And maybe this will help make it even more clear. Is it a simple task or a complex task? That's a big differential. If we're talking about, okay, I want to learn how to plant the tree, I want to learn how to fix a tech problem, or let's say repair my bicycle. Well, to learn that, to get coaching for that, it's pretty simple. You can go online, you can Google it, you can go on YouTube and within five minutes they'll walk you through a process. You can answer those questions.

But if we think about some other more complex sorts of goals like landing a new job, starting a successful business, I can imagine even winning your first election, I've never tried that, but I'm assuming that they're experts and coaches and consultants that help you do that. And they're not going to be cheap.

Even this is a good one that I talked to a podcast guest about, and that was gaining admission to a top tier medical school. Now, there are dozens and dozens of things that you should do. Now we think we know how we're going to do that, obviously get the best grades we can and write a good letter of introduction and do the application properly. But there are people that are paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars per hour because they're thinking, "Okay, I want to get into this residency in this specialty." You name it, whatever, gastroenterology or otolaryngology. And I have my eye on two or three fellowships and two or three residency programs and maybe a really top tier medical school for whatever reason. That's not how I did it. I just want to get into med school so I can be a doctor.

But there are coaches who specialize in starting with the undergrads, how to get it in the best med school, the best residency, the best fellowship they pay. They're paid hundreds and thousands of dollars to teach them how to do that because there's only a few people that have done it. And besides just being an excellent student and having a good work ethic, there are a lot of little tips and tricks that if you don't know them, you're never going to get into Harvard.

As we get into these more complex and maybe even time-wise, more longitudinal, the cost is going to go up because the number of people with the expertise is going down. Now there are caveats because just because someone says they can do this, shouldn't be you're going to plunk down $5,000, $10,000, whatever, and believe that they can do it. So, there are caveats.

One is what is the deliverable that you want to get from this coaching? Is it just you need an accountability partner who can do basic coaching once a month, once every two weeks to accelerate your progress? Pretty much any good coach, general life coach or business coach can do that, can maybe take you from something you would've done on your own in a year and get it down to six months or two years down to nine months, something like that. And that doesn't require necessarily specific special expertise.

But if you're looking more towards a deliverable that is an outcome, it's like in the hospital setting when we were talking about quality improvement and patient safety. You've got some outcomes. Well, they're not really outcomes, they're processes. I put in place a good quality improvement process, so that means I have good quality, right? No, that doesn't ensure that at all. It just means you have a process which may or may not be delivered appropriately and effectively. The real proof is the outcomes, the patient care outcomes. That's the end point.

So, it's not always easy to get a coach to commit to an end point because so much of what you accomplish when you're being coached is the commitment that you have and the time and the coachability that you have. I like to think of myself as coachable, but it's hard when you have a strong personality. If you might be a little OCD like me or whatever it might be, you might always think that you know how to do things. And so, if you're going to get a coach, you want to be coachable, particularly if you're trying to get an outcome, because most of the time the coach won't take you unless you agree to follow what they do. Otherwise, they can't guarantee the outcome.

I remember this applied too when I was working as a CMO of the hospital. When we had a consultant come in, we always wanted to know what the outcome was. In other words, we didn't want someone to come in and say, "Look, I am going to do some lectures and I'm going to teach your staff all about how to be doing utilization management and reduce your denials. And so, you're going to pay me $1,000 for every lecture. I'm going to do 10 lectures, I get $10,000, and that's how I'm going to address your utilization management and length of stay program."

As opposed to someone who said, "No, we're going to come in, we're going to have a team, and we're going to start by educating everybody. And then once you implement these new things that we're teaching you, we're going to be there side by side watching and coaching your staff how to respond to questions, how to talk to patients, how to talk to physicians, what kind of checklist to use, and really get down into the nitty gritty. And we will guarantee that you're uncollectible revenue because of denials or other metrics that represent that we'll guarantee at least a 20% improvement in that. And generally we shoot for a 50% improvement."

Now you're talking about outcomes. You have to get to that point if you want to really make sure that an expensive coach is worth it. If you're saying, "Well, I want to find a part-time remote job in either utilization management or clinical documentation improvement", and then you try and pin down the coach, "Okay, so you're going to teach me specific ways to accomplish this, and in your estimation, I should be able to land that new job within what period of time." So you might not get an actual guarantee, but you'll might get something like, "Well, if you follow everything that we tell you, come to your meetings, don't blow us off and pay us on time, then yes, we will refund part of your money if that doesn't happen." That's almost like a guarantee.

The way to do that, two things. One is you definitely have to interview your coach, and most coaches have a so-called discovery call, which actually has value because they will give you advice right on that discovery call. But the main purpose of the discovery call really is to have a 30 minute conversation, let's say with the coach, and just hear their voice, tell them to explain why they think they can help you, what would be entailed, do they have a certain way to approach this problem? And really, if at all possible, get some testimonials for sure, although those are usually provided directly by the coach or consultant. But getting references, if you could talk to two or three people that can concretely answer your question, how long were you using this coach? How often did you meet? What were your sessions like? And was there other supporting material? Did they have intellectual property they were sharing with you like checklists and, and resource lists and things that they only share with their coachees? And did they live up to their promise and did you get the job that you thought you were going to get at the end of that coaching?

Sometimes there's coaches that won't do that, but really a few thousand dollars for a few hours with a career coach for a physician is quite reasonable. I know though there are others that go as high as $5,000 or $10,000 over we're talking a year or so because career transition can take a long time. And if you think about it, there are people that spend tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars to be in let's say a monthly meeting with Tony Robbins or some really high powered motivational expert.

The bottom line on the answer to the question that I had earlier this week from that physician was, look, something between t$2,000 and $3,000, if you can make it crystal clear what you're looking for and your expectation is that you should be able to be in a position to really identify the job and apply for the job by the end of your coaching. And if the coach will agree to that, not guaranteeing that you get the job, but really sharing all that knowledge, information and advice and even encouragement, then I would say definitely.

I've paid two people in the past for a year's worth of coaching, which is basically monthly meetings for $8,000 for each, for two totally different reasons. I'm a believer and I think it was worth it. And just like I think it's worth it to pay my fitness coach and work out with him two times a week. And when you add up all the payments that I've done every week for the last few years, it's added up to more than a few thousand dollars and I'm in a lot better health.

And just to be crystal clear, I was saying that the $2,000 to $3,000 for three sessions plus whatever ansley information that the coachee would get was worth it. Now if you're talking about something that goes six months or a year, it's probably going to be much more than that. And I still think that's a good investment.

All right, that's all I have for today. Thank you very much for being here.

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Interview with Dr. Karen Barnard

In today's episode, Dr. Karen Barnard explains how to be purposeful with your life and career. She begins by sharing her inspirational journey. It starts with growing up and completing her medical degree in South Africa.

It continues with moving to the United States and completing her residency and fellowship training in internal medicine and endocrinology. She worked as an academic clinician for years. Her most recent transition was becoming a certified professional co-active coach.

She now helps physicians find intention and purpose in their careers, whether they're exploring new clinical paths, transitioning to nonclinical roles, or seeking to enhance their leadership skills.

Our Sponsors

This week's episode sponsor is the From Here to There: Leveraging Virtual Medicine Program from Sandrow Consulting.

Are you ready to say goodbye to burnout, take control of your schedule, increase your earnings, and enjoy more quality time with your family? You’re probably wondering how to do that without getting a new certification or learning a whole new set of nonclinical skills.

Here's the answer: The quickest way to achieve more freedom and joy is to leverage virtual medicine.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow and I discussed this in Podcast Episode 266. Cherisa and her team are now preparing to relaunch their comprehensive program for building and running your own telehealth business.

If you want to learn the tools and skills you need to live life on your own terms – then you should check it out today. After completing the 10-week program, you’ll be ready to take your career to the next level.

The program starts soon, and there are a limited number of openings. To help you get a glimpse into the program, Sandrow Consulting is offering a series of FREE Webinars. Go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/freedom to sign up and learn why telehealth is the quickest way to begin your career journey.

We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the show sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Dr. Karen Barnard's Unique Coaching for Diverse Physicians

Dr. Karen Barnard primarily specializes in career transition coaching for physicians. Her coaching services encompass a range of areas, including:

1. Career Decision-Making: Helping physicians who are unsure about their career path, whether to stay in their current roles or pursue alternative career options.
2. Skills Assessment: Assisting clients in identifying their unique skills and talents acquired through their medical careers, enabling them to leverage these skills effectively in their transition.
3. Personality Assessment: Utilizing the Enneagram Personality Assessment to help physicians gain insights into their personality types, behaviors, and how to break free from self-imposed limitations.
4. Values Clarification: Guiding clients through a process of clarifying their core values, which is crucial for making decisions aligned with their deepest principles.
5. Professional Development: Offering support and guidance in enhancing leadership, communication, and other professional skills.

Through these coaching approaches, Dr. Barnard empowers physicians to navigate career transitions and explore new opportunities. Ultimately, she helps them design a fulfilling life and career aligned with their aspirations and values.

Dr. Karen Barnard's Advice on Starting Your Career Transition Journey

…don't do this alone. You're not alone. If you're feeling any shame or guilt, those are completely normal emotions to have when you're kind of just even beginning to think about this. Find your resources, find some physicians who've done it. A therapist, a coach, it doesn't really matter.

Some physicians struggle with uncertainty about their career direction. To address this, she encourages “mini career experiments” to gain hands-on experience and explore possibilities.

Additionally, crafting a targeted resumé and practicing interview questions with trusted individuals can significantly enhance your job application success. Lastly, she highlights the importance of recognizing that leaving clinical practice doesn't mean you're no longer a doctor. You're simply transitioning to “doctoring differently” and taking your medical skills and experiences with you into new roles.

Summary

Dr. Karen Barnard provides valuable resources and support to physicians seeking clarity and guidance in their career transitions. Her coaching services and free resources can be found on her website, drkarenbarnard.com. Subscribe to her newsletter for regular tips and insights tailored to physicians.

Feel free to connect with Dr. Karen Barnard on LinkedIn or email her at karen@drkarenbarnard.com for further assistance in your career journey.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Karen Barnard's Website
• Dr. Karen Barnard's Linked Page
• More On How to Hire a Suitable Physician Career Coach – 216
• How Do I Hire a Suitable Physician Career Coach or Consultant? – 215
• From Here to There: Leveraging Virtual Medicine Program
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 317

How to Be Purposeful with Your Life and Career

- Interview with Dr. Karen Barnard

John: I really like bringing physician coaches on the podcast here because of several reasons. First of all, I think coaching is such a good career for a physician because it meets all the needs I think of most physicians in terms of helping people and using their brain and interacting and so forth. But it doesn't have all the baggage of the risk of a lawsuit and long hours and calls. So, it's very useful for those who are on the receiving end and physicians are one group that need coaching very often. That's why I'm so happy to have today's guest here. Let me welcome Dr. Karen Barnard to the show. Hello.

Dr. Karen Barnard: Hi, John. Thank you so much for inviting me onto your show. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

John: It's going to be fun, and it's always useful and helpful to my listeners because we always go into some topic that's going to be a benefit to at least some of them. So, that's good. And then I also like it because the coaches that come on are sort of role models for their transition, whether it's part-time, full-time or whatever, just to having addressed maybe similar problems that they had before they became a coach. So there's a lot of good reasons to have coaches like you here, so I'm glad you're here.

Dr. Karen Barnard: Thank you.

John: Well, one of the things we always start with, of course, is the story. The story of how you started out and how did you end up going into coaching, and we'd love to hear that right now.

Dr. Karen Barnard: Yeah. John, I'm originally from South Africa and I moved to the United States about 30 years ago. I did an internal medicine residency in an endocrinology fellowship, and I was in academic medicine my entire clinical career, and I loved it. Teaching, education, administrative roles and some research.

And then after about 25 years, I went through my own career transition, and now I own my own coaching business, and I help physicians going through their transition. And I like to say I help them from soup to nuts. Whether they're in the soup of "Should I stay or should I leave? I don't know what to do" all the way through to the nuts of landing a job, interviewing, prep, and so on.

John: Now, just from the standpoint of me looking at this as like a nonclinical career or job, for some it's not even, some people will do it more as an advocation, but there's usually either the need to get out of medicine was the first part, or the need to just do something different. Because the nice thing about becoming a coach is you can do it part-time, and most coaches really have to anyway, because they need to get those first few clients and really make sure it's something they want to do. So, how did that happen for you? How did you make that transition?

Dr. Karen Barnard: Yes, yes. Such a great question. About two years before I went part-time and then finally quit medicine, I sensed that something wasn't right anymore. I just wasn't enthusiastic. I really loved my job, and suddenly, I now know what the name is, it's quite quitting, but I didn't identify the name at the time. I just wasn't volunteering for things. I was feeling tired all the time. Something just wasn't right.

And I didn't know what it was. I actually beat myself up over it for a while before I decided, "No, I better pay attention. Something is happening inside of me." And what I recognized is that I love to help people, and I really wanted to help people in a different way. And all throughout my entire career, I'd been mentoring and coaching students and residents around their career choices and their skills, and doing evaluations and feedback.

I was really drawn to coaching, but not at first. I didn't identify that at first. I had to do my own little exploration. And then once I decided, "Oh, coaching might be it", I did a little bit of a coaching course, and then I started my business, and all the time I was still working. And then I went part-time. And it was about six months into starting the business that I recognized, "Okay, I want to do this full-time, and I think I can do this full-time. I can swing this." And that's when I resigned from my job full-time and went into full-time coaching.

And honestly, John, I often get the question "Do you regret? Do you ever look back?" And it's been three years this past July that I've fully quit, and I haven't looked back one day. Which I didn't expect. I thought I might have some pangs of missing it, but I so love what I'm doing now that I feel very, very fortunate to be doing what I'm doing.

John: As you were talking about that, it reminds me of how we often will tell people who are sort of unhappy in whatever they're doing now, and they're kind of interested in making a change, but they really don't know what to do that one of the things that we're always told to do, and I don't know was it just was natural for you, but it's sort of like, "Well, look at the things that you're doing now that you like, what part of your job do you like?" And then if you can focus on those things which you described, then maybe that might lead to what will ultimately be your alternative, or at least something that you might want to do part-time. That just is a good example of that. And those are the things that physicians typically like to do to help and mentor and coach and even informally. So that's very interesting. The other thing I want to ask you about in that process then, you had to talk to somebody about going part-time, right?

Dr. Karen Barnard: Yes.

John: And so, that always comes up. I get a lot of physicians just offhand because I don't really do any direct coaching, but it's sort of like, "I'm afraid to mention it. I'm going to get in trouble. They're going to can me, they're going to not understand." And it's like 99% of the time, it seems like if you just have a sincere conversation with somebody, your boss or whatever, that it works out pretty well. So, what was your experience going through that?

Dr. Karen Barnard: Yes, all of the above. And for me, it was incredibly challenging actually. Almost initially it felt like I'm a failure. I can't do full-time at this which is that strange expectation we have on ourselves as physicians. But I think it was really what was pulling me outside of medicine that gave me the courage and of course, support from colleagues. I actually was working with a coach at the time.

And it's so true. It's just having that honest conversation. I can't remember the exact words that I said to my boss at the time, but it was something to the effect of "I feel like there's something different in my future and I want to cut back. I still love what I'm doing here, but I need to do less of it in order to explore that." And I'm just so fortunate that he was open to it.

There are many practical considerations here too, John. It's figuring out how much part-time can you go and still have benefits. For some, it's salary requirements. It's a multifaceted decision. But I would say to any physician listening and thinking about that, don't let fear drive the decision. Let what's drawing you to do it drive your decision to just have that conversation. And what's the worst that can happen? They can say no. Well, then you've got a lot of good information on your hands.

John: I know. And there's that fear, but what can they really say? Most of the time they're going to know that there's something pending. There's something going on. "Okay, this person seems to be unhappy for some reason." That's just the way I look at it. Although there's no guarantees. You might have one that you deal with that's going to be super unreasonable and make your life miserable, but it just usually doesn't happen from what I'm told.

All right. I was going to then ask you, now what exactly type of coaching do you do with physicians? Because really I could narrow it down into 10 different things that physicians sometimes need. Some are more general, life coaching or career coaching, but where do you fall in that spectrum in the kind of clients you tend to attract and work with?

Dr. Karen Barnard: Yeah. I really focus on career transition coaching. I do a little bit of professional development, but the bulk of my practice, and what I absolutely love is helping physicians through the whole arc of the transition. Even if it's just, "Do I stay, do I go? What else can I do? How am I going to do this? How do I do my resume, my LinkedIn, what do I need to network?" All of that I help them with. I show them how, I support them along the journey. And I have tools and resources that I share with them.

I would say that for the most part, when physicians come to me, they're stuck in a few places, but one of the most common places is they are almost a hundred percent sure that they no longer want to do patient care, or they no longer want to do patient care full-time. So, they've got that.

And often they've looked at a list of nonclinical careers or read job descriptions, or even spoken to physicians who've transitioned into roles. And now they're stuck because they're like, "Well, where am I going to fit? What's right for me?" And that's a perfect place to come to coaching, or not a coach, a therapist or somebody to help guide you through that process that you can figure out what are your skills and what do you want to take with you? And then be able to see the options in a new light.

John: Some of the coaches I've talked to will actually use different kinds of psychological testing. That might be not the exact term, but you know what I'm talking about. Do you use some of those methods in your coaching?

Dr. Karen Barnard: Yeah. One of the important aspects of my program, I have a very structured program I take people through, because I like structure and I find most physicians do is sort of the get to know yourself or really get to know yourself, like who you've become.

I do the Enneagram personality assessment. And what I love about the Enneagram is we tend to have put ourselves in a box of a personality type, or we get caught up in certain behaviors. And the Enneagram kind of shows you the box you've ended up in and also how to get out of it, if you wish to. So, I really enjoy that. And I actually had a client the other day who said, "Oh, I felt like there was somebody reading my thoughts as she read her report."

And then for others, it's variable. But when the Enneagram lands, it's a very powerful tool to help you see what are your gifts and really what do you want to take with you and what do you need in a career and a career environment. So that's one of my assessments. I have several.

The other assessment I do is a skills assessment. We really look at breaking down the skills. Because one of the things I thought I remember telling my coach, "Oh, I'm just a one trick pony. All I know is academic endocrinology." And hell no. That's so far from the truth. But at the time, that's how it felt. And so, breaking down the skills we have as a physician is really important. And then sort of piecing together the ones you really love. But that's another assessment I do is skills.

I also have several questionnaires about preferences, lifestyle needs. I also do some values work, which I think is really critical when we're in any transition in our lives, is really redefining our core principles and our guiding principles and deciding which are really important.

And John, I might just add in my own transition, what I failed to recognize until I did my own values inventory was that freedom that had been sort of in the top 10, but kind of near the bottom was suddenly like one of my top two values. I wanted to be free to live where I wanted to live, to take spend time with my family in South Africa, to have freedom and autonomy. And I realized that in my 09:00 to 05:00, I was stepping on that value. And once I could see that it was, "Oh, okay, I'm not a loser. I'm honoring my values." Those kinds of assessments are really important at the beginning to really look inside and define who are you, who have you become, and what kind of a life do you really want to live? And then build from there.

John: You find that it takes some of your clients, is it difficult for them to do this? Basically, I could see myself. Automatically, when you're in a busy practice, let's say, you just ignore those or you suppress those values in a sense. In a way, like you said, freedom is not really consistent with the values that one would need to be a full-time practicing physician who's on call every third. That's just not even going to be part of your consideration. So, those things could be, I would think, difficult to overcome and take some time. Is that what you found?

Dr. Karen Barnard: Oh, absolutely. This is the hardest work and this is what we don't want to do. And I don't think it's because we don't want to do because we don't want to do, I think it's because we have unlearned how to connect with ourselves, and that's okay. To become a competent physician or a master in a specialty, it takes focus and dedication and hard work. You can't navel gaze the entire time, you never get to the other side. It's really returning to 10, 15 years down the line, "Oh, wait a minute."

I have some clients who are like, "Well, I don't know. I don't know what I want." I didn't either. I had no idea. I was completely overwhelmed by that. How can I not know? Well, because the path has been paved for me since pre-med. So it's okay. This is normal. This is how many physicians come to this and we work through it. Start where you are. Even a little dip toe. And as you begin to pay attention to these things, you begin to see.

And sometimes it's just paying attention. One of the things I have clients do is look at your past two weeks, John. When you've been really tired and really didn't feel like doing anything and there's one thing that you did and it gave you back some energy, what was that thing? And it doesn't have to be in your work. And some clients say there's nothing at work. It's all that. Okay, well, then what about after work?

And I have one client who has this amazing hobby, and that's what lights her up. And so, we are trying to figure a way of weaving that into her next career. So it might be just as simple as doing that in the beginning to get back in touch with what you love. And by this, I'm not saying at all, follow your passion and everything will be fine. That's not what this is about. Because I think that's advice that I don't think works for everybody. But it's paying attention to what brings you alive as a starting place.

John: No, that sounds like great advice. Yeah, as you were talking, it's so true. We become stoic and delayed gratification. It's just what we have to do well in a way to go through the system that we're in. I'm not sure the system has to necessarily be that way. Unfortunately, it still is that way and we need to put everything off until we get through that.

Yeah, it's hard to change those. I remember, I don't talk about this very often, but I was in therapy for a while, mostly around my divorce. I was going to call her a coach, but my therapist would ask me to just give me a little thing to do while I was there in terms of thinking and being bringing out "What do you want? What do you need?" I would just sit there flapping my foot going. I couldn't verbalize it. It just took me a long time to where I could, "Okay, yes, I can understand and feel these things and here's what I really need." And that takes some work. So, it doesn't surprise me.

All right. Now that's one big thing that comes up a lot it sounds like. Are there one or two other things that you encounter in working with people? Maybe they've gotten past that part now and they're like, "Okay, I know what I want and maybe what I need." Are there other things that typically come up that maybe if we knew about those, if my listeners could get a little hint here, they could maybe be looking for those things themselves when they're thinking about doing this?

Dr. Karen Barnard: Yes. Several things, but the one that comes to mind is let's say we have a career in mind, but we are not a hundred percent sure. And trying to think ourselves to clarity. This is related to what we said, but I really encourage a little mini career experiments or explorations.

So, get your whole body into what you might be doing as opposed to just thinking or talking or reading a job description for pharma, for instance. Look at clinicaltrials.gov into your area and see what trials are going. Contact the PI and say, "Hey, I'd love to volunteer. I can do informed consents. I can do blood pressures. I can do health exams." Whatever. Get yourself into that space and then pay attention to how that feels.

So, cognitively, do you like the content you're working with? Do you like the problems that you're seeing being solved? Do you see yourself here? Do you like the people and the conversations you're having and what's happening in your body? Do you feel open, excited, maybe even a little nervous? Or do you have a sense of dread and contraction? To help you, yeah, I imagined that this would be nice, but actually now that I am experiencing this a little bit, I'm not so sure. So maybe it means another kind of experience in the same just to make sure, or it means okay, maybe the door is closing there for you and it's something else.

Another example is for most of my clients actually who've gone into utilization management have started out by doing some chart reviews. Do you like the process of combing and wading through the chart and writing the report? How does that feel? Do you like the content, the intellectual part of it, using your physician brain? Does that feel good? And then what's your body doing? You dreading sitting down to write those reports. Well, maybe there's something there.

Or another thing that's not easy to do, but very possible is if you're still working as a hospitalist or doing inpatient rounding, joining the QI team. Do you like quality improvement? Do you like clinical documentation improvement? Volunteering, signing up for these experiences, that can give you, bring your whole body into the decision. It's really helpful at that point where maybe you're juggling between, "Oh, should I do medical writing or should I go into education? I'm not sure." That's often helpful.

John: One of the things a guest of mine brought up once, and I was shocked that I hadn't thought about it, but you're kind of alluding to it right now. And I think it was in a particular career, but he or she was saying, you should see if you can do some shadowing. I'm like "Shadowing? What physician ever does shadowing in their mid-40s or 50s?"

But I think that is exactly what you need. Because you don't know what these different careers unless you've been somehow affiliated with some pharma and doing some studies or something, for example. If you've never done this, how are you going to know? And unfortunately, for a lot of careers there is no shadowing. A pharma company usually won't let you shadow per se because they're so close to their technology being stolen or something.

But it makes perfect sense. If you can by all means, try and find someone that you can shadow and just find out what they're doing or what you suggested, which is to actually do those chart reviews as part of a precursor to becoming a UM. Any other examples of that that you can think of?

Dr. Karen Barnard: Yeah, while we're on shadowing, I'll often suggest that for concierge or direct primary care specialty care practices to shadow somebody who is in such a practice or lifestyle medicine. Sort of the non-traditional are often easier to shadow because you can connect with a physician who's doing it and it would be like clinical externship that you're shadowing. I agree with you, you can't shadow in everything, but that lends itself particularly well to shadowing.

The other little example of the experiment is doing, and I usually don't recommend another degree unless it's really in line with where you want to go. But I do recommend free or inexpensive courses. And this is something I did. I took a medical writing course and I recognized, "Oh hell no. I don't want to sit in front of the computer all day long writing." And I really actually thought I would enjoy it, but in that experiential course, it was done deal. And it cost me, I don't know, at the time it was even under a hundred dollars, it's just over a hundred dollars now. But it was so much worth it to get that experience and put that baby to rest as a career direction. Courses can be great if they provide an experience of what we are wanting to go into.

From just my own career experiments, I took a meditation training course because at one time I thought, "Well, maybe I'll do meditation, become a meditation teacher." There was nothing wrong, but it wasn't quite right. And then I did a three day coaching basics. It's called a foundational coaching training with the program I ended up training with. And it was during that that I recognized, "Ah, this is what it is." And it was a very clear yes for me even though I knew I had a lot to learn, I recognized that this would be.

I think taking courses is another great way to get a taster. And then of course, if you can't shadow, really having a good conversation with a physician who's in that role. Now again, it still doesn't tell you that you are going to like the role because you have bringing your own unique things that you want to have in your next career, but it gives you a little bit of a taster of what the career might be like.

John: Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Any other "aha" moments? Maybe about tactics or techniques or just things. At this point looking back a while I never realized that until I had been working with 10 or 20 people that this comes up a lot. Or anything you might have observed in the last several years.

Dr. Karen Barnard: I think just a couple of things I do want to mention is sometimes physicians do come to me and they've been applying for jobs and they've got no bites or they've had a couple of interviews and don't progress. I didn't really have to do the resume and interviewing for my transition.

But what I've really come to appreciate is a resume that's targeted to the job you're applying for is worth its weight in gold. And the goal of the resume is to get an interview. And spending some time, whether it's with your dog or your significant other, saying, preparing interview questions. I have resources on my site. There are many references and resources to give you some ideas of interview questions, practicing, getting some feedback with somebody you love and trust before you go into an interview, can really be the difference between moving along in that interview and not.

Because really once you've got an interview, it means your resume has met the bar. So now, can you convince them that even though you don't have most of the experience in the thing you don't have, but you can do this job and you're confident and you want to learn and they want to work with you? Well, that's really what it's all about. It's like, is there chemistry and can you show me that even though you don't have this experience, that you will learn fast to be able to do the job? That's just a little bit of nuts and bolts on resume interview prep.

But I think the other thing, John, that's really, and it can be, it's such an obstacle for us, it was for me as well, is, "Oh my gosh, if I no longer see patients, does that mean I'm not a doctor?" We've spent half our lives building this identity and this role. "Okay, so now you just want me to leave it at the front door?" That is really hard.

And so, what I realized in working with my clients, and in even myself, is that I'm going to take the skills and the experiences and the needs that I need in my career from what I learned in medicine, and I'm going to take it into whatever I do next. And so, I'm going to go from being a doctor to doctoring differently. I'm never not going to be a doctor. And that really is an important thing to remember that you don't have to forego this identity. You're just doing it in a different way.

John: Yeah. I have come to realize that over the years too, that a lot of these jobs, most of them ones you're talking about in particular, one of the prerequisites is they have to be a physician. Even the employer, if you're working for a large corporation, isn't asking you not to be a physician. In fact, the only personnel hired for that job is a physician. So, there's something about being a physician that makes you at least partially qualified for their job. There might be other things.

I've never found anybody that moved into a different job, a nonclinical job or non-traditional that afterwards didn't feel they were still a physician once they actually got into it. Yeah, that's one I think you're right. We question that quite a bit, so I'm glad you brought that one up.

Now you have to tell us about your website because I know there's a lot of resources on your website and or a newsletter or something that will help people just kind of address a lot of the issues you've been talking about today. So, why don't we go into that right now? Where can they find you?

Dr. Karen Barnard: I'm on LinkedIn. I'm happy to have you reach out to me there. I also will respond to every single email I get. I love hearing from physicians, even if it's just one little question. If you're stuck somewhere, sometimes I can help you just over an email exchange. And my email is karen@drkarenbarnard.com.

And then on my website, which is drkarenbarnard.com, I have some free resources. But if you go to the newsletter or just drkarenbarnard.com/newsletter, in your inbox every week, you will get some tips and trick and resources and tools to help you through your transition. It's very focused on physicians, and lots of nuts and bolts there, as well as just a variety of topics, some of what came up today and some more. So, I really welcome you to subscribe to that.

And then I have a couple of other free resources on my website as well that the only thing you need to do is give your email in exchange for those. And then working with me, I have a couple of different options. I have what I call a career clarity call, which is 60 minutes. You just would like some clarity. You're feeling stuck in a certain area and you want to work through it in an hour. I can help you do that. I can often share some resources after that. That's a one-time only. And then I have what I alluded to earlier, my career transition program, which is the structured program where we work together for a few months, and take you through what you need to learn to get you in the best possible shape for that next stage.

John: I always get questions "How do I pick a coach?" And basically what you're saying through the clarity call or even calling or in interacting with you about the other. If you can find out what the program is, that's why I advise you. You need to talk to the coaches before you make a decision who's going to be your coach and you might want to talk to one or two or three. But usually when you really feel like there's that connection, it works out fantastic. I really encourage anyone who feels like they're stuck or they don't know what direction to go to reach out and get that help.

Any last bits of advice before I let you go for those that are, again, early in the process and they're struggling still?

Dr. Karen Barnard: Yeah. I would say don't do this alone. You're not alone. If you're feeling any shame or guilt, those are completely normal emotions to have when you're kind of just even beginning to think about this. Find your resources, find some physicians who've done it. A therapist, a coach, it doesn't really matter. But get the support you need because if you're feeling unhappy in your career, there's a really good reason for that. And explore that. It might not mean changing your career, but it might mean you need to make some sort of a change because life is way too short to be in a job that you don't love.

John: Excellent advice and you're living it now yourself. So, that's good to know that you've applied all these principles after spending some time and learning and so forth. Again, go to drkarenbarnard.com if you want to learn more, reach out on LinkedIn. I'll have all those links in the show notes. Thank you so much, Karen, for being here today. This has been really helpful for me and I'm sure for our listeners. So, hopefully we'll get together again another time down the road.

Dr. Karen Barnard: Thank you, John. I thank you for this opportunity and I really enjoyed talking to you about these things.

John: I did too. It's been my pleasure. Bye-bye.

Dr. Karen Barnard: Bye.

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Interview with Dr. Heather Fork

Today's presentation is a replay of Dr. Heather Fork's presentation in which she explains how to land an awesome job using LinkedIn.

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We're proud to have the University of Tennessee Physician Executive MBA Program, offered by the Haslam College of Business, as the sponsor of this podcast.

The UT PEMBA is the longest-running, and most highly respected physician-only MBA in the country. It has over 700 graduates. And, the program only takes one year to complete. 

By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

New Podcast

Dr. Fork hosts the weekly Doctor’s Crossing Carpe Diem Podcast. And she is passionate about creating new resources to make it easier for physicians to navigate their careers.

She previously described her Resumé Writing Kit here on the PNC Podcast.

How to Land An Awesome Job Using LinkedIn

Heather begins our discussion by explaining what LinkedIn is, and why it is unique among social media sites. She notes that when she started coaching, LinkedIn was not an essential tool for physicians seeking a new career. 

The biggest mistake physicians make is not getting “in the parade” and having fun. – Dr. Heather Fork

Today, she says that 100% of her clients use LinkedIn as an integral part of their career search strategy. That's why she found it so important to help her clients and other physicians by creating a LinkedIn course for them.

Summary

Dr. Heather Fork explains why LinkedIn is important, and how to land a nonclinical job by using it in new ways. She also explained its most critical functions and points out little-known tips, including her “Alumni Hack.”

IMPORTANT REMINDER: Heather has created her own “how-to” course called LinkedIn for Physicians that anybody can purchase if they need help setting up their profile properly. This is, by far, the best resource for quickly learning how to set up your LinkedIn page and use it to network, attract recruiters, and find a nontraditional job. [Note: this link is an affiliate link so I receive a stipend for promoting it that does NOT affect the price of the course to you.- JJ]

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Doctor's Crossing Website
• Doctor's Crossing Free Resources
• Heather Fork's Linkedin for Physicians
• Your Resume is the Passport to That Desirable Job – 157
• Top Reasons to Use LinkedIn – 008
• NewScr!pt

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Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton

Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 310

How to Land An Awesome Job Using LinkedIn

John: I'm very pleased to bring today's guest back to the podcast for the third time. She's been an awesome source of support for physicians struggling with their careers for many years and she's a very well-known ICF Master Certified Coach in resume and LinkedIn expert. Hello, Dr. Heather Fork.

Dr. Heather Fork: Hello, iconic Dr. John Jurica. Thank you so much for that very generous intro. And I have to say, I am a huge fan of yours. Yours is probably the first podcast I ever listened to.

John: Well, I'm happy to hear that and I'm glad to hear it. And it's mutual because I love your podcast. Oops. I shouldn't have spilled the beans that you have a podcast. That's one of the new things you're doing. But I love your podcast, I love your coaching, and your blog too has much good stuff on it. We're not going to go over all your past history because they can go back and listen to the previous episodes if they like. What I really want to know is since it's been about a year and a half, what new things have you been up to?

Dr. Heather Fork: Well, spoiler. A podcast.

John: There you go.

Dr. Heather Fork: Now, you inspired me with this medium that I've been putting off. And when I heard you and then Amy Porterfield, I thought this is so valuable. Especially since I don't really like to write and I've been blogging for 10 years, I just had to do something different.

The podcast started last October. And as you know, it's a lot of work to do a weekly podcast, but it's much fun and I love getting my former clients to come on and other guests because they're so fantastic. And what I hear from listeners is I don't feel alone anymore. Someone else feels the way I do. I don't feel like I'm damaged goods and I have hope.

John: Yeah. Well, it's been a while since I started, but one of the things I realized shortly after I started and I heard from people is that you are part of people's life. They know your voice. I was at a meeting once and someone came up to me and said, "Hey, I recognize you. Aren't you John Jurica?" We were at a meeting about nonclinical careers. But just that whole idea that you're talking to them directly.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yes, it's intimate. And I love it because you can really help people feel too what you're expressing and what the guests are expressing. I think it really changes the landscape from being something to just thinking about making changes, to feeling like it's really possible. That these people are really alive. Someone just didn't write a bunch of stuff and put it on a paper and made it up.

John: That's true. Now, oddly enough, there are some people that have never listened to a single podcast. I don't know how we get to them. But for those who are listening and want to learn about nonclinical careers or burnout or nontraditional careers or just, I don't know, feeling better about your life, definitely, you want to listen to Doctor's Crossing Carpe Diem podcast. Why did you pick that name?

Dr. Heather Fork: I just love the term "carpe diem". And my coaching program is called Carpe Diem because like Robin William said in that movie, "Dead Poets Society" that, "Before long we're going to be pushing up daisy's unless we carpe that diem." And we got on this path and our whole life has been planned out for us. And if we don't really question, is it what we really want to be doing? Is it making us happy? We'll be pushing up daisy's and saying, "Oh my God, I didn't get to have the life I wanted."

John: For sure. Yeah. Seize the day, right?

Dr. Heather Fork: Yes.

John: All right. Everyone's going to go listen to your podcast, but that is not really the main reason I wanted you to come on today because we discussed something a few years ago about creating different resources for people that we could share with our followers and our listeners and all that.

And then I saw that you, the expert in LinkedIn, recently created a course. But I'm going to just talk to you about LinkedIn. That's what we're going to spend the next 20 minutes doing, because I don't think that our listeners always understand the importance or why we should learn about it if we're not already using it. Just explain what LinkedIn is for those that have never used it, or have just dabbled a little bit and maybe why it's different from other social media sites.

Dr. Heather Fork: I'd love to. LinkedIn is considered the number one networking platform for professionals, and it has over 800 million members. So, it's worldwide. And I'd say the main thing about it, that's different from Facebook and Instagram and these other platforms is that it's really for those of you who want to have a professional platform, you can have your own profile, who want to network with other professionals with a really powerful search engine. I call it the Rolodex on Steroids. And also, be able to use your profile to apply for jobs and interact with recruiters. It's one-stop shopping and a platform that's continuing to evolve.

John: Well, I'm on LinkedIn fairly often. It's actually one way that I find podcast guests, for example. And being an introvert, I'm not a big networker per se, but it's an awesome way to network as is a podcast, of course.

But the thing is, I have never seen a nasty conversation on LinkedIn. People are like, they don't want to go to Twitter and Facebook because it's just loaded with sometimes some nasty stuff. And LinkedIn is, like you said, it's professional. It's a place where you can find jobs and post jobs, if you like. Does it come into play a lot in terms of the people you work with, that you coach or that you're teaching? I know you've done some speaking about LinkedIn. Does it seem to help them? And how often does it become a critical part of their career search?

Dr. Heather Fork: That's a great question, John. And I would say back in 2010 when I first started, LinkedIn was there, but it wasn't used as much. But now all of my clients use LinkedIn. And let me explain how it's helpful by painting a little scenario. Let's say we have two physicians and they're both applying for the same nonclinical job. One is on LinkedIn, one isn't. The one who isn't on LinkedIn applies through the regular channel, say maybe Indeed with their CV or resume. Then the other physician applies on LinkedIn. And the difference is when the recruiter gets a CV for that first physician, they just have the CV or resume. They don't see a picture. They don't see recommendations. They don't have this dynamic visual of the physician.

Then if they go to the physician who applied through LinkedIn or even has a link for their LinkedIn profile on their resume, that recruiter can click and then they already see this beautiful face. They see a lovely banner photo and then everything's right there that they need that would've been on the resume. Plus, there are a lot of additional things you can put on your LinkedIn profile. They might read a recommendation that describes exactly who they're looking for. That's not going to be on your resume.

John: Absolutely. Yeah. In my mind, I think about a Venn diagram, things overlap and a resume and LinkedIn overlap a lot, and then networking overlaps with your LinkedIn. And you're right. The LinkedIn profile is just so much more complete. Not that you want to send in a five-page resume. But if someone wants to look for that information, it's right there on LinkedIn.

Dr. Heather Fork: Exactly. So, the physician who's using LinkedIn, when they want to apply for a certain job, they could find a physician who's working in that company, and they can reach out to them for an informational interview. And then often those physicians get a finder's fee if they refer somebody who gets hired. So, there's an incentive for them to talk to you. If that person's applying and they were recommended by another physician, the recruiter already likes them because there's a much higher success rate for candidates found that way. It makes it easier. So, you can see how very quickly that physician who's on LinkedIn already has many advantages.

John: I had a podcast guest tell me once that submitting a CV on a website is the way of madness. She had literally said she had submitted a thousand resumes and had never received a response. And she noted that once she figured out that she just needed to have some connection with somebody, either find out who the hiring manager was or have somebody that she knows in the company, some touchpoint, then she had some actual jobs that were requesting she come and interview.

Dr. Heather Fork: Oh my gosh, that's such a discouraging story to send out thousands and not hear anything back. I'm surprised she persisted that long.

John: Well, I think it's misleading because it's just so easy. Oh, I'm just going to cut and paste and cut and paste and cut and paste. But no one's looking at those kinds of resumes, I don't think. My daughter is a recruiter for a big firm and they use LinkedIn constantly.

Dr. Heather Fork: Well, it's really becoming the go-to platform for recruiters. And when you apply for a job on LinkedIn, often, you'll actually see the recruiter that's connected to that position and you can reach out to them. You can attach your resume right there in addition to the formal application process. You can start a relationship. You could also just look at jobs you're interested in and you may not be ready to apply, but you can connect with that recruiter and say, "Hey, I'm not ready yet, but I'd love to establish a relationship with you."

John: Yeah, absolutely. That's so true. You mentioned how all of your clients use LinkedIn. Can you give us some examples of where it was very critical to a particular, without naming names, particular clients?

Dr. Heather Fork: Sure. Absolutely. I have some great stories. I had one client who wanted to transition into a certain nonclinical area. And we were on the phone together and we were both searching on LinkedIn. And because she wasn't having a lot of success at first, connecting with a couple of folks on LinkedIn. So, I said, "Here, let's find somebody." I found this person with her same specialty, and she sent him a message. She heard from him the next day. They had a chat. It turns out they knew a couple of people in common who were working at that company as well. She ended up getting an interview and it took a while because they didn't quite have an opening then for her specialty, but she got the job and she's working in the job and she's really happy.

John: Very nice.

Dr. Heather Fork: I have another story. This was a physician who was brand new to LinkedIn. When she came to me, she didn't have a profile or anything. She created it. It really doesn't take that long when you just follow the steps. And I taught her my alumni hack, which is one of my favorite little things to do on LinkedIn that's very powerful, is to search your alumni network. That could be people you went to college with, med school, even your training program, and see if they're working in the industry or at the company that you're interested in.

She found someone who went to her small liberal arts college who was working in the company where she wanted to work. She messaged him, he got back to her right away, and said, "Send me a resume. I want to give it to the hiring manager." She did that. The hiring manager reaches out, interviews within a week. Does another interview, gets the job. There was one and done. One application, a couple of interviews, got the job.

John: It's amazing. I think sometimes we feel like if we're reaching out to someone, we haven't seen in 20 years, they're not going to respond. But the reality is when I'm on the receiving end, if I get a note of any sort, whether it's an email or LinkedIn and they're from my Alma mater. I mean, invariably, I respond immediately. That's just human nature, I think.

Dr. Heather Fork: You are family, and those little connections are huge. It's funny how we're like that. The first time we had gone to the school, like I said, 20 years ago or before you, or after you, but you are buddies.

John: Yeah. Even if it's someone from two or three years, if you're at the same school, you just have that bond and can talk about the different things and you feel like you're somehow you owe that person for some reason in a good way.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yeah. You just feel this common connection. That really it feels like a blood brother or something.

John: Now, I hear another thing people tell me about LinkedIn is they create a profile and they should put certain keywords if they're looking to be found by someone. Is that a big thing? Is that a minor thing to consider?

Dr. Heather Fork: That's a great question, John. Now, there's something on LinkedIn called "Your headline". And this is what comes below your name, or you have your degrees and everything. And by default, LinkedIn puts in the company where you're working and your job title. That's just by default. But you can customize this headline with keywords that will help recruiters find you or the people you want to find you. For example, it might just say that you're a physician at Slippery Rock Clinic, or something like that. But you can put in, medical writer, consultant, physician advisor, you can put in expert witness, the side gigs that you might be doing. Even you can say, "Seeking position in drug safety".

John: Wow. Nice. That helps really to key off those who are actually looking on LinkedIn for someone to contact like a recruiter or something like that.

Dr. Heather Fork: You can do that. And then those keywords also are important to have in your "About section", which is like your customized bio. They can also go in your "Experience section". They can go anywhere on your profile and they are searchable.

John: That really helps. I'm telling you. Let me turn it around now. Here's the way I like to look at things sometimes is like, let's look at the other side of the coin. What are the mistakes? Now, we've kind of alluded to them in a way by what a good way to use LinkedIn is. But have you seen working with people and said, "Wait a second, this is why people aren't looking at your profile?" Any common mistakes that we make when we first start to use LinkedIn?

Dr. Heather Fork: I would say there definitely are mistakes like that, of not optimizing the profile. And there are lots of ways to do that. But some of the biggest mistakes are really just not getting in the parade and then shutting the parade down too soon. What do I mean by that? Not getting in the parade is saying, well, I'm a private person. I really don't like to put myself out there, or I'm really introverted. I don't like to network. Or you get on LinkedIn, you put up a basic profile. Maybe you send a few messages, apply for a few jobs, nothing happens. And you just say, well, this doesn't work and I don't have time. Which I completely understand. It is not the most intuitive platform. And these things that I teach in the course help you know how to use it and use it strategically so it's not wasting your time.

John: Okay. Now you mentioned the course. I mentioned it earlier and I do want to learn more about the course. I do want to remind my listeners though, of course of your website, doctorscrossing.com. That's where pretty much they can find everything. Now I understand also, you have a page there that has a bunch of free resources. That looked pretty awesome. Can you tell us about that first?

Dr. Heather Fork: Absolutely. On my website, under the freebie tab, there are these downloadable PDFs that you can have. One is a starter kit that's very extensive on how you can go from being overwhelmed at the crossroad to figuring out how to move forward. That has a lot of great information for your career process. Then there's one on medical writing. There's one on pharma. There's a chart review. There might be some others there. I can't quite remember, but you can go to the freebie tab and take whatever you want.

John: I went and looked today. I think there were at least six that were there and they address different things. I've downloaded several of them, of course, but I would recommend people to go. And you can go directly there at doctorscrossing.com/freeresources, or just go to the website and look for it.

Okay. Now you have a LinkedIn course. This is something that I have been looking forward to for a long time. One of those things that I thought we really needed. I have this little video that I made five years ago where I built a LinkedIn profile. It is so dated. It is so ugly. And then I just said, "I'm not going to do anything, because I'm waiting for Heather to come out with her course." So, it's called what? LinkedIn course for physicians?

Dr. Heather Fork: You always do quality work and you're also incredibly prolific. You put about a hundred things to my one.

John: Okay. I'm not going to argue with you except that this course is beautiful. I will say that it's a lot prettier than anything I've produced. It's just awesome. Tell us about how it's structured and what does it go through?

Dr. Heather Fork: Thanks for asking. And I have to say, this has been the hardest thing I've done in my business. It took me a year. It wouldn't take me that long if I was doing the second one, but the course is three hours of video that's broken down into 22 short lessons, five minutes to 10 minutes. And what it does is it walks you through creating your profile, then teaches you how to start networking and message people. There are specific examples and templates to use of, "Well, what do you say in that message when you only have 300 characters? What do you do when someone doesn't respond to that message, and then how do you write longer messages"? We cover networking and then we go on to "How to start searching for jobs?" Because that's another thing that really gets people in a twist is, "I see all these job descriptions and they want five to seven years and I'm not qualified" and that's another area of difficulty. I really talk about that.

And then I also show them how to apply for jobs and work with recruiters. And there's all these little things you don't really know about. For example, did you know, John, that you can put yourself in anonymous mode when you want to go look at people's profile, but you don't want them to see that you've been visiting them and then you can turn it back on and be visible?

John: No, no, I've never tried that, but it would be definitely a useful tool.

Dr. Heather Fork: It really is. You can stalk a bit on LinkedIn.

John: One of the things that I did find out though is if you have a profile and you want to make a change to it and you don't want your boss to be notified of the change, you can go in and turn that off temporarily or permanently where they won't be notified of new changes. You can be a little under the radar that way.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yes, that's 100% correct. You can stop those notifications to your contacts. A couple of other things about the course is that I really wanted to make it easy to use. With each lesson, there's a downloadable cheat sheet that goes over all the steps, and in the videos, I'll teach about how to do something. For example, how to write your "About section". And then I'll go on LinkedIn in the video and show them exactly how to do it, where to click, where to go, and then show examples of other physicians about sections.

My goal was to take the frustration out, make it doable. And I love people now responding to me saying, "Oh, the course was really easy to use. I'm really happy with my profile now," and they'll send me their profile. And it's so fun to see how great they look.

John: It's good to have someone who really understands how something like this is used telling you and teaching you about it because I've been using LinkedIn for a long time. And I was just in your course a couple of days ago and there was a whole section. I was like, "Oh, I could probably really get my connections up quite a bit using this technique that you described". Which is again, reaching out to alumni or other ways of networking. And then, there's different ways that you can connect. There are some with a message, without a message. And I just really was really impressed and I'm definitely going to go back and go through that section. Especially when I'm looking for a new podcast guest.

Dr. Heather Fork: Well, thank you. And that was my goal to just make it easy because we don't have extra time to waste and I don't want people to get frustrated and then give up.

John: No, absolutely. And it can be frustrating until you really get a feel for it. Well, there are different ways that they can access this course. They can get it from your website, but I happen to be an affiliate. I have a link for it. And the only reason the listeners might want to buy it through my link is that they also get a free bundle of courses from my nonclinical career academy worth a couple of hundred dollars.

I'll put my link for them to look at, nonclinicalphysicians.com/linkedincourse. And I'll probably put that actually on my website at some point permanently if you'll let me, but that's an easy way to go. If they happen to be at your website, they're going to obviously sign up there. You've got some other resources there as well. So, anything else you want to tell us about the LinkedIn course before we move on off that topic?

Dr. Heather Fork: Before I say anything else about the course, I do want to say, please get it from John because he's so wonderful. He works so hard and I'd really like to support him. Please feel free to use his link. And if you come to my site, and you forgot his, just email me and I'll send it to you. I want you to support him, but thank you for all you do for me.

About the course and LinkedIn in general, I would just like to say that if you feel that this is not what you're naturally good at, networking or putting yourself out there, just let go of that. Because a lot of my clients are introverted. They had the same feelings about LinkedIn. They would drop their shoulders and just feel like, "Ugh, do I really have to, Heather?"

But once they get on there and do things such as usually the alumni hack and they get someone to respond to them, they're really happy. It's a game-changer. And all of a sudden, they see that being on LinkedIn is like treasure hunting. We don't have to call it networking. Let's just call it treasure hunting because you do find these treasures of people who will definitely help you out and open doors.

John: Yeah, that's so true. That's so true. Maybe I'll make you step back even further, just in considering all the clients that you've known over the years and the people you're helping now, any other advice you have for physicians who just right now happen to be just kind of frustrated with the whole process of thinking about doing a side gig or trying to overcome burnout or anything like that?

Dr. Heather Fork: Yes. Yes. And if I can go back to my parade metaphor.

John: Sure.

Dr. Heather Fork: I would say, just get in the parade. Don't sit on the sidelines and watch other people's floats go by and say, "Oh, well, look what they're doing. Why can't that be me? They probably just knew somebody or that's not going to happen to me." I say, get in the parade, start building your float. And when you're building your float for the parade, you start with your platform. And you don't have to know where the parade is going. Just start with your profile or just start thinking about what you want to do, what's working, what's not working. Build your platform.

And then when you're actually on your float and riding in the parade, have fun. Don't look around at other people's floats and say, "Oh, theirs is better than mine. I'll never be like them." Cheer them on, dance on your platform, and have fun because it's not about getting to the end of the parade, we're all going to get there, but we want to be enjoying the parade while it's happening, which it's your life. I'm there standing on the sidelines cheering you on. Get in there so I can wave my pom-poms for you.

John: That is so cool, Heather. It is. And listeners can get a sense if they haven't read your blog or listened to your podcast, they're going to get more of what you just heard. That's a good thing. Let's go over that again.

The podcast is the Doctor's Crossing Carpe Diem podcast. They're going to find that on any app, Spotify, Apple, whatever. Definitely listen to that, go to doctorscrossing.com, and look for those free resources. And if you want to learn more about the course, go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/linkedincourse, and you'll have a page there where you can learn more about it. I think we've covered everything I wanted to cover today, Heather. This has been fantastic and fun. I'm always happy to be able to spend a few minutes talking to you.

Dr. Heather Fork: It's such an honor, John. I'm a huge fan of yours. And can I put a plugin for your new script app that you have?

John: Yes.

Dr. Heather Fork: I love all the things John does. If you haven't heard about his new script app is a community where you can join very, very affordably and get a lot of wonderful content, access to his courses, access to mentors. John, you can let people know the price and how they find it. But I think it's something to really look into.

John: Yeah. The nice thing about it too is it's not limited to physicians. And so, most of us work in teams, whether clinically or nonclinically. It's actually designed for any healthcare licensed professionals, psychologists, social workers, PAs, MPs, oral surgeons, and doctors. It's like less than $5 a month. It's newscript.app. I appreciate you bringing that up today, Heather.

Dr. Heather Fork: Yeah. How can you not? $5 Starbucks, miss that for one day, get the new script app and you'll be doing a jig.

John: Absolutely. All right, Heather. Well, thank you much. I guess we're at the end of our time now, I'm going to say goodbye and I hope to see you again soon and back on the podcast sometime.

Dr. Heather Fork: Thank you, John. I really appreciate you having me on.

John: You're welcome. Bye-bye.

Dr. Heather Fork: Bye-bye.

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