Interview with Dr. Nilesh Dave – Episode 335

Today's podcast episode describes Dr. Nilesh Dave's four-year career transition to health system Chief Medical Officer. We pick up from his previous appearance 4 years ago in Episode 99, as he lists the steps he took on his interesting career journey.

Starting with his role as medical director at a regional Blue Cross Blue Shield subsidiary, he describes the steps he took to land his position as VP for Clinical Effectiveness and CMO for a large hospital system.

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Dr. Debra Blaine is a physician like many of you, and her greatest challenge was fear. The whole concept of leaving clinical medicine was terrifying. But she is so much happier now as a professional writer and a coach. According to Debra, “It’s like someone turned the oxygen back on.”

If fear is part of your struggle, too, she would like to help you push through those emotional barriers to go after the life you really want. Click this link to schedule a free chat.

Or check out her website at allthingswriting.com/resilience-coaching.

Career Transitions and Leadership Growth

Dr. Nilesh Dave's evolution from medical director to CMO for a health system highlights the importance of diverse skill sets in nonclinical leadership roles:

1. Adaptability across domains
2. Cross-pollination for innovation
3. Strategic thinking
4. Learning and adapting to new technologies

Nilesh emphasized that a combination of clinical knowledge, business acumen, and the ability to adapt to new technologies is essential for success in these roles. Some of these skills developed as he pursued additional formal education, including an MBA and executive training in Artificial Intelligence in Health Care at M.I.T.

Navigating Challenges as Health System Chief Medical Officer

Dr. Dave's role as a CMO involved navigating the challenges of a complex healthcare system. It requires a combination of strategic leadership, analytical thinking, effective communication, and collaboration to drive improvements in clinical outcomes and overall system efficiency. He began developing many of these skills in his previous management roles.

Summary

If you're interested in connecting with Dr. Nilesh Dave and exploring more about his insights into nonclinical roles in the healthcare industry, you can reach out to him on LinkedIn. Dr. Dave often shares valuable perspectives on clinical effectiveness and leadership, making his LinkedIn profile a great platform for networking and staying updated on the latest developments in the field. You can find him on LinkedIn by searching for Nilesh B. Dave MD. 

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Nilesh Dave's LinkedIn Page
• First Gain Know-How Then Secure an MBA – 099
• The Eight Essential Abilities The CEO Wants In A Chief Medical Officer
• 6 Important Assignments of a Hospital CMO – 218
• How to Become CMO in a Year – 052
• Dr. Debra Blaine's Website

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 335

What Makes a Great Health System Chief Medical Officer?

- Interview with Dr. Nilesh Dave

John: I can't believe it's been four years since I last interviewed today's guest. I wanted to have him come back because his nonclinical career has flourished since he was here before. And he's in a leadership position now of a large hospital system, which is awesome. I think he has a lot to share with you all today. With that, let me welcome back Dr. Nilesh Dave. Hello.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Hi, John. It's great to be back. I'm looking forward to chatting with you over what's been going on over the last four years and hoping that any of your listeners out there will hopefully get some nuggets of information and hopefully that'll help them get to the similar or whatever pathway they're on.

John: I think it's going to help a lot, and I have a lot of questions. But when we last spoke in July of 2019, I think it's okay I can mention you were basically working for one of the regional Blue Cross Blue Shield companies but you're no longer there, obviously. That's why I wanted to have you come back. You've made a couple of different changes and you've also done some other things in between. Why don't you tell us what happened, why you decided to move on and what the next job that you did was that would utilize all of your skills and education?

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Yeah, sure. I'm happy to. When I was working for one of the subsidiaries of Blue Cross Blue Shield, I was outreached by another insurer to join their team. And the resources there that they had in analytics and the opportunity to get involved with more business innovation in that space, as well as population health, was too hard to pass up. And so, I literally had to just drive down the street for that when I took that position and learned a ton. I was never someone who actually liked the utilization management component, and this was a minimal part of the entire role.

A lot of jobs in the nonclinical world will sort of describe themselves as working across a matrix or working across silos, so to speak. And I have to say that doing that transition to the other insurer ended up really teaching me some of those skills that it's not anybody that is above or below you in sort of a hierarchy. It's another department and group, but you've got a common client or something like that. And that's what brings you together in achieving some of the business objectives.

And when I was there COVID was starting up. And so, I was enjoying that role. And then I thought, you know what? I want to maintain my clinical skills. And so, I signed up to do some tele ICU moonlighting shifts. With being in a corporate position and having regular hours, it was not difficult to find time to do a clinical shift.

I started doing that and it was different. It kind of checked off the box of, yeah, it's critical care, and I'm an intensivist by training, but it was in a different way. It was tele ICU. I wanted to learn more about that because things were shifting towards telehealth and certainly COVID accelerated that and made telehealth a more accepted way to also deliver healthcare. And so, I just expanded my skill and exposure to it and signed it up.

And then I guess serendipity is what happened next, because I ended up being asked to oversee that multi-state tele ICU operation. And I almost did a double take when I was asked that because this was an opportunity that aligned my clinical skills. I had gotten a business degree before. I was in charge of quality, metrics and policies for the health system that this was a part of. And so, that had some inroads to my master's in public health I did in between medical school years. It just seemed like this makes complete sense. Like why not do something like this that you can get at all these skill sets in under one roof?

John: That's impressive in a way. But also what was the old saying? What is good luck? It's the combination of preparedness and opportunity. Unless you're open to it and you're prepared, however that preparation occurred, you just never know when you take a new position or volunteer somewhere or whatever, what opportunities might show up. What were you doing there? Just to clarify, I was going to ask you about the location, but it sounds like you did not have to move to take on this new role. You said it was down the street.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: No, in fact the company's headquarters moved from Boston to Dallas. And so, their operations for their tele ICU was also located literally within a block of the other two jobs I had previously. It was just sort of a business park, I guess, and that's why. I didn't have to drive really anywhere else.

John: Another serendipitous thing in the sense that there's a lot of movement out of many states, but Texas is one where there's a lot of movement in. And that includes corporations as well as people.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: That's for sure. Yes.

John: You loop selected a good place to live and grow in your career. That's another thing to keep in mind. Tell us again, at the beginning, before you were doing the moonlighting, before you were heading down this telemedicine service, what were the actual duties that you were doing that were different from what you had been doing earlier in your career?

Dr. Nilesh Dave: At both insurance positions, there was a new program that both insurers had started in terms of a white glove population health management service for employers, employees or members of the insurance. And looking at cost of care, drivers of care, managing and understanding the population of workers and really using your medical knowledge and understanding like, okay you've got diabetes, which is a risk factor for coronary disease, and the folks that work in the different divisions of this company. The company had 400,000 people in the Blue Cross Blue Shield subsidiary that I was overseeing. And so, that was a lot of that population health more so. But when I moved to the other insurer, there was more sort of KPIs, key performance indicator, and data associated with that that we focused on as we were managing.

I was managing three different companies with very disparate populations and risk factors. And so, I had one that employees would be in remote locations building solar farms, wind farms and stadiums, and another that was building nuclear subs and the third in drug development. And these are all employees with different kinds of health problems and some very similar.

But in that second role, there was a lot more of a business focus, a lot more strategy, data-driven analytics, and the opportunity to use that data capability that the company had to think of innovative approaches to some of those problems. And so, when I pivoted away from the Blue Cross Blue Shield position, that's what I got out of that second job.

And that retrospect, I think that set me up pretty well for when I started doing the tele ICU operations across multiple states. We had the same kind of set up. We had a lot of analytics. We were in charge of quality and metrics. We had key performance indicators that we had to meet. The usual ventilator length of stay, ICU length of stay, mortality. That's in the medical clinical world, that's when you're in these sort of hybrid clinical business positions, a lot of those things are what you're looking at. And so, being able to be in that tele ICU position really solidified that. And I was able to leverage then my clinical knowledge as well, knowing what does it take to take care of an ICU patient and translate that into the business side for health system.

John: That's what I think is great about physicians that move into these more executive positions, is that they do have that understanding of the relationship with the patient, the needs of patients, medical terms and all that. And if you can just add the business side of it, to me, it's an ideal situation. I think the companies you've worked for, they've recognized that. They have CMOs and they have physicians in pretty high leadership positions unlike a lot of hospitals. Some large hospitals do, but there are a lot of hospitals out there that the first thing they did when the pandemic hit was get rid of their CMO because it was an expensive position, at least from what I've heard. That's why I think physicians sometimes get frustrated working in a health system, but I think you still have to fight for that. And if your colleagues that are at the hospital recognize that they can hopefully encourage the leadership of the hospital to get more physician leaders like yourself. Tell us the next steps. Anything else you want us to tell us about that position you were just describing? I know after two or three years then you found something new to pursue?

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Yeah. There were a few variables that sort of were in the mix, that the health system where I was doing the tele ICU had some struggles and things that were financially related. And so, the tele ICU program was being contracted and expansion was being halted. And being able to grow in that position, it was pretty clear it was going to be delayed for several years. And a lot of the planning and things that we had at the beginning of when I took it a few years later, that was all sort of cut. And so, at that point, an opportunity at a Dallas based health system, the largest one by footprint, in terms of hospitals and things, was advertising a clinical effectiveness chief medical officer position.

And so, I threw my hat in the ring. And obviously after rounds of interviews and things, they offered me the position. One of the things, my background is a divergent one. When you look at, I'm at a system level. We have a system CMO. In some ways you could say I'm an associate system CMO, but they carved out a different CMO role with different parameters. And my background does not fit the "Hey, I've been in a hospital CMO for years and now transitioning to a system level." I was at a system level with the tele ICU, and in some ways I was the critical care subject matter expert overseeing our tele ICU operations and quality and meeting all those metrics. In some ways, there was some similarity to that CMO role, but I did not follow a traditional pathway. And in fact, I think I was very fortunate to be in a company now that actually appreciated my payer experience and my telehealth experience, which they've never had that background. And they thought that that would be an advantage for them based on the personnel and skillsets that they had which was a nice refreshing thing to hear.

John: When you were looking at the job title, if they posted it as such clinically effective CMO, they could have said chief clinically effective as medical officer or something else, but I've heard the term clinically effectiveness, but I've never heard that applied to a CMO. What were you thinking when you first looked at that?

Dr. Nilesh Dave: I figured that there were probably service lines or clinical service lines that between hospitals, they were probably performing at different levels. And I'm sure I expected that there would probably be similar sized hospitals with similar availability of specialties, but their quality metrics, we're not predictably the same. And so, I was sort of trying to figure out what's driving that? And it turned out that thinking before learning more about the position, the position was a new one that they had. It wasn't one that they had established years ago. They got rid of one position and sort of reformatted it. And so, for them it was also a new thing. And it was not only clinical effectiveness from the way you would think in the service line area, but also risk management, safety, credentialing, medical staff affairs.

I'm also involved in deploying our telehealth strategy. I'm on their AI governance task force, the tele ICU. And I've always been into the tech stuff. And so, now with AI, generative AI and things really versioning and so many platforms and vendors out there trying to get a piece of the pie, we had to create a governance structure, and I helped create a framework and took some time to take a certification course from MIT on AI and healthcare as a way to just compliment that because I knew some, but I didn't think I knew enough. And I just did that on my own while in the role taking classes and things online and learning that stuff. Once I saw some of these other aspects of clinical effectiveness, and it really is just making the clinical engine run, as smoothly as it can, that's what it kind of boils down to now. And it's been a phenomenal experience.

John: Describe some of the things that you do in that role, that are more leadership management and so forth. I think it's difficult sometimes for physicians to understand what it's like to move from that strictly clinically, even if you're the head of a service line or something, to working at the level of let's say a senior VP chief medical officer. But it's going to be different for every system as well. You move from one to another. What does it look like for your system? Who are your peers? Which other senior leaders do you regularly meet with or report to for that matter? That would be interesting to hear how that's structured.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Yeah. Interesting. I'll add one other point is that when I was in the tele ICU position, I had 40, 50 nurses, and probably the equivalent number of physicians on our internal tele ICU operations. I had a whole team, had administrative folks helping to run the operations, a nursing counterpart, and a few other internal business partners. When I joined my current role, the directive was to get things done working through the business. Other than an administrative assistant who's fantastic, I do not have a hundred person team under me or any of that. That's one big difference that I have already in the job, which was a bit strange to me, based on the projects and things.

But I came to learn through listening to interviews like this, that there are many folks who are in these sort of officer positions that work through the business and get things done. And so, on a day-to-day basis, the folks that I interact with could be other VPs who oversee our hospital channel, for example. We have all our hospitals in a channel. We have an ambulatory channel and telehealth channel. And so, we have VPs that oversee that and a lot of them are nonclinical, business trained background. And so, I work a lot with them on different aspects of my projects. I even will directly collaborate with the COO of the company, and occasionally with the CEO and CFO as well as the strategy officer.

It's not a completely sort of flat organization in that sense, but the opportunities are there, and at times necessary. And I also work with the chief medical officers of each hospital. They don't all report to me. They're sort of a dotted line to myself and my colleague. And so, we collaborate together with them. We work with the chief nursing officers, hospital presidents are sort of in the business channel, but we work with those executives at the local hospital levels and then their sort of system counterparts who are maybe senior VPs or executive VPs or whatever. It's all across the board. I work closely with the VP of care transition management who oversees all of the folks in the hospitals. And so, it really is a pokery of various officers. At all levels, it's not just officers.

John: Yeah. When I was working as a CMO, of course, it was a small, it was a hospital, so it was very contained. But we just say that was a matrix relationship. We knew that if we had something we had to get done, it wasn't that I had to go through another VP. I would just deal with whoever I had to deal with to get it done. And then hopefully we're all on the same page, had sort of the same strategic plan and management plan that we were working on. And so, at that level, you even have to learn how to give up a little bit of something. You have to make someone else's thing work, because it's for the overall improvement of the organization, not your own little fiefdom within it. That sounds really goods.

The other thing that it makes me think about is when going through some of the courses at the AAPL and what I've taught when I've heard from others doing MBAs and so forth, the importance of things like negotiation, communication, persuasion even as a thing. And it's all about doing that rather than there's no such thing really anymore for the most part of just saying, "Okay, I'm the boss, so I'm going to tell you what you're going to do."

Dr. Nilesh Dave: I think that's a great point because one of the things you had mentioned is that a lot of times folks with these opportunities sometimes struggle, and in reflection, I think there's a struggle. Part of the struggle comes from just the language. A lot of us who may be doing day-to-day clinical practice and maybe are involved in some greater hospital initiatives or maybe it's the health systems doing your cardiologist and there's some cardiovascular service line initiative, and you're doing some of that, but being able to translate that into business speak.

And in fact, when I had to do my resume as I was pivoting into the nonclinical world, I think on our last discussion, I had mentioned that it took me a while to understand how to convert "Hey, I set up a system-wide inpatient hospice program." Well, there is another way of saying that on a resume that resonates with the nonclinical business executives that you might end up working with.

And to your point about getting allies and strategizing, it's a lot easier when you have that one patient in that one room and you're talking with different consultants. For one consultant or for a combo, your hand is forced because of the clinical scenario situation and the direction it is going in. And so, you have no choice but to agree and just take care of it. On this side, you know that is going on, but you're doing things system-wide that aren't directly related to that patient and related to operations or strategy, and a lot of that maneuvering, change management negotiating, let me do a solid favor for them now and hopefully that'll be repaid when I'm in dire need of something as well. And I'm not keeping a little notebook of what I've done, but the people you work with, you kind of know, they'll remember and sometimes you have to bring it up. That's a different skillset. I had to learn a lot of it. I wasn't like one of those schmoozers who could easily just do that kind of thing naturally. That's not always the kind of people who can get things done in these roles. There are skills to learn.

John: Yeah. Yeah. If you have a culture where that's the way things are done, it helps, but there's always individual personalities and some people are more forthcoming. I remember I had a director that reported to me, and I loved her dearly, but she may be crazy because if somebody didn't do something they promised like within a week, she'd be like, "It's not my problem. But they said they were going to do it." It's like, no, you have to take responsibility beyond yourself and enable those other people to do what they are supposed to do without being so black and white. That's just another example.

I'm glad you're here because I did have one or two other things I wanted to ask your opinion on, because you have some experience with these things. For example, you did that MPH back while you were in med school or between years or whatever, you did get an MBA and at Kellogg too, I think it was. It's not a community college MBA. And you've done other things. I don't know if you've ever been a member of the AAPL. I'm just wondering your opinion on all of those things, whether there's a prioritization, if someone hasn't done any of them, or what your advice is on deciding on an MBA, deciding on doing an MPH or doing some other things. Like you said that you got some additional training in telemedicine and AI and that kind of thing.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Yeah. Funny enough, when I was in med school, my desire was to be in infectious diseases. And at the time, I wanted to learn more about epidemiology, biostats and health outcomes. At the time that was the buzzword. And when I did mine at Johns Hopkins, they had a program for with all that, and it was just a one year program. I didn't go into infectious disease but I did learn some skills, especially with the epidemiology and the biostats that from a data analytics perspective, which I would not have predicted back then, ended up helping me out. I pursued that because in the moment it made sense for what I was trying to do.

The business degree, I've been asked and I also hear the question of, "Well, I wanted to do something nonclinical so I better go ahead and get my MBA because that's like a lot of our physician pathway, we've got to get a medical degree, or a doctor of osteopathic medicine degree or something and be able to be that doctor." But here, an MBA is not mandatory. There is the American College of Physician or I forget, Healthcare Executives or something. The ACHE or something.

John: Yes. That's the one that's more for the hospital. ACHE.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Yeah. There's an MBA like program you can go through there. I did it because I knew I lacked the ability, and when I was doing system-wide stuff as a practicing intensivist, getting involved in some of the health system initiatives, I was having a hard time trying to communicate effectively with nonclinical business leaders. And if anything, I felt like I was just oversimplifying things and as I listened closely in meetings, I saw that there was a gap. And so, I did that.

But at the time, I was not doing it hoping that it's going to open a thousand doors of opportunities. That did not open really any doors right away. Even with an alumni network that was strong in all of that. That was not something that was automatic. You still have to hustle and try to find those opportunities and hope that one thing builds on another and sort of strategize like that. And those skills ultimately will come in handy and they have for me now.

But it's a false way of thinking if getting an additional degree is the gateway to doing things like this. There are plenty of folks that I know that don't have a public health degree or an MBA or Master's in Health Administration, or any of those, that are fantastic leaders. And whether they've done work on the side to learn that stuff, it's possible, I don't know. But it's not necessary.

John: What I'm hearing, it was like the MPH, there was a reason at the time that you did that, and then with the MBA, you were already understanding, I don't know, maybe budgets, maybe financial statements. You had the people you were talking to at that time and you thought, "Okay, this is going to help me to address that need."

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Yes. And I was also at the time thinking a little bit entrepreneurial that maybe I'll sort of do something different on my own. I wanted some of that background and I thought about should I go and pursue a healthcare related MBA or not? And I actually decided conscientiously to not do a healthcare one. I wanted to meet people from all kinds of industries because my background is divergent, my thinking is divergent. I like to cross-pollinate with folks in other industries to have a better innovation mindset. And so, I looked at it that way and chose a program.

John: Yeah. That makes sense. Because I do hear the same thing. "I don't know what I want to do. I want to get out of medicine, so I'm going to get an MBA." And it's like, well, that's a little bit of a shotgun approach in the sense that it doesn't really give you any particular direction. And I think employers too, they're going to be working for someone like a big system or insurance company or pharma. They're going to look at that and say, "Well, it doesn't really fit in any kind of logical step in your career." You just decide one day to get an MBA while you're practicing full-time in family medicine or something. I'm sure those things long-term can benefit in unknown ways as well, but it's a lot of time and money to invest without having necessarily a direction that you're shooting for.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: I wanted to add, especially for the benefit of the listeners, that when I took on this role, and even when I was in my previous role, I had started to work with an executive coach. And at first I was like, "Well, I don't know. Do I really need that? We're all smart and savvy enough. Maybe we can figure this out." But no, emotional intelligence is probably the number one most valuable skill and capability that you need to grow and mature when you're in these types of positions.

And there's frameworks of how to manage workloads and how to have those conversations and negotiating the talking with different folks and trying to not only get the stuff on your table moved forward, but a collaborative project as well. There's skills there, not necessarily soft skills, but there are some hard skills as well that for me, it was something that I thought would play into the brand that I wanted for myself. What I want to be known for and how do I want to execute on that.

An executive coach was something that continues to make sense. I've been working with the same person now on a second year, monthly, before it was more frequently, especially when I was onboarding in this new role at the end of April. I throw that out there just because not everything is in the books. You do need it. You do need sometimes some coaching. Will there be a time where I won't need it? I'm not sure. It just depends.

John: Yeah. Unless you've had a coach like that, you really can't imagine the amount of wisdom that you can get from a coach. And they're kind of like a therapist in a way. They don't just tell you what to do. They get you to generate the "aha" moments and just help you to clarify your thinking. The bottom line is it doesn't make you a better person. Everything you would've maybe eventually learned, I think just happens faster when you're in that situation.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: I agree. And sometimes in the chaos, they can help tell you "Yeah, that's not the way for your role, what it is. You should be really having this resource or support, or you should really be looking at things this way. Or you're now in a position that's different than what you did before." You got to start sort of shifting, to have executive presence or to do those things which are skills to get success.

John: No, it's a really good point. Because we know how we feel in our internal talking to ourselves. When you have someone who's objective and really has no vested interest other than in your success, it's just a different perspective that just really can open your eyes. It reminds me too of something that one of my friends colleagues, advised me, and he was a hospital leader way before I was, and he said, "The next time when you apply for a job at one of these hospital systems or something, you should ask them to provide you with a business or leadership coach as part of your contract." I thought that was a brilliant idea. I never had the chance to implement that, but I thought that is a really good idea.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Yeah, I agree. I had been told that after a year into the job that my company also provides that.

John: Okay. Nice.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: I was like, "Whoa, really? You guys actually provide that kind of stuff?" I'm very blessed to be in a company that really invests in their own people, with innovation programs for officers and things like that, to really understand the business. That was one of the other things that I went through as I was learning the company. They're like, "Well, we're going to throw you in this program for seven weeks." And I heard from all the strategy leaders, finance leaders, and it kind of fast tracked me in my education of just knowing where am I working at? What have been their goals? Where are they trying to get to? And how do I fit into that? And that's just investing in their people. Not every company does that kind of thing.

John: Yeah. That's awesome. It really is. I think outside of medicine, it's very common for large businesses to invest in coaches for their CEOs and senior leadership team, and even managers sometimes. We're a little bit over time here, but I do want to ask you any thoughts about AI in medicine? It sounded like you have some experience. Is this something we can ignore for a while or do we have to really start to learn about AI if we want to get into clinical or nonclinical future jobs?

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Yeah, I've been involved in my own current job and just reading and talking to different folks in the AI space. I think that some of the takeaways that I would say to answer your question is, one, the physicians and the healthcare teams that learn to work with AI as a tool are going to do better than those who say, "Well, I'm not getting into this. Or maybe reject the idea or think that it's a fad and eventually it'll go away." I don't think it's going to go away.

But with that said, the most important thing is understanding how do you evaluate a proper AI partner for your clinical operations? What they're calling AI, why are they calling it AI? How do they develop it? How do they test it? How is it biased? What's the risk that it can create harm? And that's a lot of the governance, sort of points that we set up. For anyone working in the hospital side, if your health system or your independent hospital doesn't have a governance structure, you need that.

Secondly, you need a framework to evaluate all the different vendors and folks that are going to come at you with, "Hey, we've got this cool thing." And you never know, it could be half baked. And they're just looking for a partner to use data to test it and iterate on it. Well, do you want to be that partner or do you want to wait till it's baked more?

But I think overall it's going to be a very helpful tool. We're using it, we're piling it in our outpatient clinics, especially generative AI. There are ambient AI programs that can listen to in a HIPAA secure fashion physician patient interactions and create a soap note or an APSO note and then you can edit that and clean it up a little bit. But it's screened by human and then sent to you very quickly so you can just focus on talking to the patient and not even need Scribe.

We have it being used in imaging, some of our business side, like revenue cycle. And so, we're looking at that, even looking at programs that will evaluate when patients call a hospital and have a conversation, what's the tonality and what is that doing from a business side? What's the engagement? What are they mad at? What are they telling us that we may not have picked up on? Because it's otherwise done manually. There's some cost savings potentially there, but in all of these, you want to have a governance structure to work through. Because data security is also a very important thing.

Yeah, you should get on to the bandwagon, but carefully I see. With structure, with a framework and see where it can help you the most. I think all these burdens and cumbersome tasks that have been attributed to burnout, there's an opportunity here to reduce some of that. Doing all your notes at the end of the day and all that stuff. There are tools out there that are good.

John: Yeah. Okay. Good to know. We need to embrace it at some point but also to make sure there are ways to monitor it and make sure it's safe and it's secure.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Absolutely.

John: I really thank you for being here today. I hope the listeners get the same that I got out of it. It's very interesting and it's inspiring and it's also a lot of good points to think about and remember as maybe my listeners are pursuing a career in hospital management or any kind of management or leadership position. I know that we'll probably have some questions for you. I think LinkedIn would probably be the simplest way for people to reach out. I know they can just look up Dr. Nilesh Dave and they're going to find you. If you do have a question, those of you at home listening, then Nilesh can help you out.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: I'm happy to.

John: This has been really good. I'm going to have to catch up with you again in a few years. Maybe I'll have you come back, even maybe a panel on AI. Again, I'm just afraid it's going to become overwhelming very quickly. All right. Thank you very much for being here and with that I'll say goodbye.

Dr. Nilesh Dave: Thank you very much for having me. Happy holidays and happy New Year.

John: Thank you.

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The post What Makes a Great Health System Chief Medical Officer? appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.

Interview with Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters

In today's episode, Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters explains the 4 important factors to consider to successfully launch your business. She is a consultant for “sciencepreneurs,” helping them design successful commercialization strategies.

Dr. Hein-Peters is a physician with over 30 years of experience working for pharmaceutical and medical device companies. She helped introduce new drugs and vaccines to the market. Her career highlights the impactful nature of nonclinical careers like hers. In her case, she helped develop and market innovations that reduce disease prevalence and mortality.

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Are you ready to say goodbye to burnout, take control of your schedule, increase your earnings, and enjoy more quality time with your family? You’re probably wondering how to do that without getting a new certification or learning a whole new set of nonclinical skills.

Here's the answer: The quickest way to achieve more freedom and joy is to leverage virtual medicine.

Dr. Cherisa Sandrow and I discussed this in Podcast Episode 266. Cherisa and her team are now preparing to relaunch their comprehensive program for building and running your own telehealth business.

If you want to learn the tools and skills you need to live life on your own terms – then you should check it out today. After completing the 10-week program, you’ll be ready to take your career to the next level.

The program starts soon, and there are a limited number of openings. To help you get a glimpse into the program, Sandrow Consulting is offering a series of FREE Webinars. Go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/freedom to sign up and learn why telehealth is the quickest way to begin your career journey.

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By joining the UT Physician Executive MBA, you will develop the business and management skills you need to find a career that you love. To find out more, contact Dr. Kate Atchley’s office at (865) 974-6526 or go to nonclinicalphysicians.com/physicianmba.

Launch Your Business: A Conversation with Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters embarked on a remarkable journey from her beginnings as a psychiatrist to her current role as an advisor and consultant in the dynamic realm of MedTech and digital tech startups. Her transition was driven by a passion for healthcare innovation in the pharmaceutical and medical device industries.

Over the course of three decades, she played pivotal roles in launching groundbreaking drugs and vaccines that visibly impacted disease rates and mortality.

Recognizing that innovation thrives in startups, Dr. Hein-Peters pivoted to support emerging companies in achieving their strategic goals. Her mission became clear: to bridge the gap between innovative ideas and commercial success.

Drawing from her wealth of knowledge, she developed a strategic framework called DIVE (Discovery, Innovation, Value, and Execution) to guide startups to launch their business through the steps needed to bring healthcare solutions to the market. Kasia helps those whom she calls sciencepreneurs translate their innovative visions into tangible successes.

Seize the Moment: Empowering Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs

It's a difficult but rewarding path. And I would say that with the most structured approach, diving into it, it's not so difficult. I am encouraging everyone who thinks about entrepreneurship to try to dive with my help. – Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters

Summary

The BEST way to contact her is to connect with Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters on LinkedIn.

You can also explore her website, abantescientific.com, for valuable healthcare entrepreneurship resources that will help you launch your business. She highlights common pitfalls in healthcare startups and the key role of marketing. Dr. Hein-Peters also discusses the growing impact of Artificial Intelligence in healthcare, making her an invaluable resource for clinicians interested in AI applications.

NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode. 

EXCLUSIVE: Get a daily dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.

Links for Today's Episode:

• Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters LinkedIn Profile
• Abante Scientific
• How to Be an Orthopedic Surgeon and Venture Capitalist – 117
• How Revenue Cycle AI Can Save Small Group Practices – 205
• From Here to There: Leveraging Virtual Medicine – 10-Week Comprehensive Telehealth Program
• NewScr!pt

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Today's PNC Podcast Transcript

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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 319

Apply Discovery, Innovation, Value and Execution to Launch Your Business

- Interview with Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters

John: I'm really excited about having today's guest here. She started as a psychiatrist, moved into the pharma industry. We did a lot with marketing and promotion of new drugs. And lately, in the last, I don't know, since 2014, she's been involved with consulting and teaching entrepreneurs how to start and promote their businesses. So, with that, let me just introduce Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters. Hello and welcome.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm really honored.

John: Oh, this is going to be fun because we do have physicians who are thinking "I'm just kind of ready to move beyond my clinical practice", whether it's because of burnout or because they have a great idea. We've interviewed many entrepreneurs in the past, people that have done startups and even involved venture capital and so forth. You have a lot of experience and you have a model I want to talk about today. So why don't you start by just telling us a little bit about your background, and then we'll go from there.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Great, thank you. As you already said, I am trained as a physician and did residency in psychiatry, and it was a long time ago in Poland. And there after a few years of practicing as a psychiatrist, I started working for the pharmaceutical industry and eventually moved to the United States with my employer. I worked for Merck, I worked for Eli Lilly, Sanofi, Novartis. And finally I worked for a medical device company called Terumo. It's a Japanese company. All in the United States.

And it was probably very lucky in my career because I was always doing very interesting things. And this is introducing new drugs and new medical devices to the market. And what really kept me in the industry for so many years, about 30 years, is the fact that we did have a massive impact on diseases and mortality. And especially my 12 years in companies that manufacture vaccines was very rewarding because each time when you introduce a vaccine on a massive scale, the disease starts going down and it's very visible and it's visible rather quickly. So I think very rewarding career and a lot of product launches.

John: Now, the vaccines that you work on, just to kind of give us some kind of conception of this. Were those vaccines that we would recognize? Were they pretty niche or were they something that's pretty broadly?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: One definitely you would recognize. It was Gardasil in 2006, the cervical cancer vaccine. And then other vaccines that I launched was one of the meningitis vaccines. I launched one of the combination pediatric vaccines, but they are probably not so easy to recognize. And also at dengue vaccine, which was not launched in the US. It was launched in dengue endemic countries.

John: Yeah. There's been a lot of controversy with COVID vaccines but we sometimes forget if you go back, vaccines have improved health and preventive a lot of disease when it's done properly.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Exactly, yes. Yes. That's very true.

John: Now you decided though, at some point, like you said, you were doing this for I don't know, 30 years, more or less, and then you started taking that knowledge and helping others. So how did that happen?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: It was also kind of a reflection during the pandemic. And this was somehow based also on the COVID vaccines. I think we all probably noticed that the most successful companies that introduced the COVID vaccines were actually starting companies. And I obviously don't forget that BioNTech partnered with Pfizer to get a bigger scale, and it worked very successfully. But Moderna and BioNTech are the big heroes of developing very new and very effective COVID vaccines and very quickly. While some very established companies, vaccine manufacturers actually didn't, despite trying.

And actually to some degree, it proves the point that the real breakthrough innovation is happening in startups. Bigger companies are very good at taking some of the innovation that was developed, turning them into platforms, optimizing these platforms. But breakthrough innovation happens in startups, and yet, startups are not very successful. Only 10% of new technologies actually are successful in the market. Because there are also many other companies like Moderna and BioNTech, and they did not succeed.

I kind of always knew that breakthrough innovation happens mostly in startups and smaller companies. But I think at this point I said that I really want to make these smaller companies, emerging companies more successful. Because on one hand, they develop these breakthrough innovations. On the other hand, they are at a disadvantage versus bigger companies who have thousands of people and million dollars in budgets.

So, how can I use the knowledge that I acquired over the last 30 years and really help the startup founders to be more successful with their breakthrough innovations? This was the goal of leading the corporate world and working with them.

John: Okay. You identified a lot of the success strategies and tactics and so forth. I think basically from what I know, just looking at your website and LinkedIn where people can find you, which we'll talk about later is that you've actually kind of developed a model that you use when you're helping these entrepreneurs. I suppose each one's a little different as to what they really need, but I thought it would be interesting to hear at least an overview of your model and might give people ideas of how they can help their own businesses.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yeah, definitely. I come at this with the idea that you should not divide your strategy too much between different functions. Sometimes during many incubators that these founders belong to, they are taught the IP strategy and the regulatory strategy and the commercial strategy, and yet another strategy. And this all feels a little bit separated different strategies.

What I try to do is to show the founders that they really need to have one well connected horizontal strategy. I call it horizontal because it connects all these different aspects of the strategy, but at the same time, they cannot disintegrate into silos. This has to be connected.

I developed a framework that I call DIVE, and it stands for Discovery, Innovation, Value and Execution. And these are four aspects that any enterprise strategy, any startup strategy should have.

Discovery is for market discovery. What do you need to know about the market, your future customers, the patient journey, the unmet need? How do you understand it on a qualitative level, but also how do you quantify the unmet need, which then leads to quantifying the market? That's one big piece. And you have to do it all the time. You have to be connected with the market all the time.

The biggest piece of the discovery comes at the beginning when a startup founder, a sciencepreneurs, as I call them, starts developing a kind of focusing on the specific unmet need, trying to understand it better, and then trying to develop the product. When the product gets into the research and development, I call it innovation phase, because you really are developing an innovative product and how to develop the innovative product.

What are these unique things that your product needs to have to be differentiated in the market? Then the value piece is still a marketing strategy. How do you increase the value of your product or service if you are maybe a SaaS company, your product or service in the marketplace? So that's a classical marketing strategy.

And then execution is how do you execute your strategy. There are two aspects of it. There's a go-to market strategy, and then there is a scaling up of the company. This all kind of constitutes the company strategy, and as I said, it has to be one whole strategy well connected between different functions than kind of contribute to it.

John: A question that came up when I was thinking about this, and as you were talking is I guess what I don't quite understand, and you can explain is what type of clients would you be dealing with? In other words, where do they come from? Are there many physicians involved in this? Just sort of describe the type of people and clients that you work with.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I specifically address my consulting to people who may not have in the past a very deep commercial experience. I think as I mentioned before, I call them sciencepreneurs. These are the doctors, scientists, engineers, some data scientists who have fantastic ideas. They do have some understanding of the healthcare ecosystem, and they do have understanding of the unmet need. But they actually never commercialize the product.

And I think that lack of commercialization experience may negatively influence even the way how they develop their product. I think I mostly address this DIVE framework to people who have scientific minds and want to continue doing science. I'm trying to avoid the marketing lingo. I'm trying to avoid some buzzwords. I'm not trying to teach in the marketing per se. I'm trying to show them how to think strategically about the entire enterprise and different steps that they have to take on their path toward successfully commercializing their product.

John: Interesting. Now, some of the guests I've had, and actually listeners have talked to me about, it seems like one of the biggest struggles is putting that all together when you're looking for cash, you're looking for an investor. And there's different types. I'm not an expert by any means. So, I'm assuming that what you're doing is assisting in that because you're helping them sort of structure and strategically plan and do all these things. How does that help with getting money? And are these angel investors, are these some kind of private equity? Is it all in between? It'd be kind of interesting to hear what your comments are about that.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: It actually helps enormously because there are many consultants who focus on pitch decks, and they say "I will help you with the pitch deck." Fine. They are probably very good communication specialist, and they can help with the pitch decks. I'm not saying that founders shouldn't do it, they should.

However, without a strong strategy behind a pitch deck, we are still pitching maybe the wrong strategy, and it's visible to investors. I think that the pitch deck has two components, actually. It has a strategic component and it has a communication component. And I think that we shouldn't forget about that. So I do help with pitch decks as well. But I always try to reorient the founder on having a really good strategy, really well communicated, and not just a well communicated, but strategy, because it'll not get them funding anyway. Because the investors, they can see through it.

John: Can you give us some examples? It may not have to be the examples of someone you're actually working with now, because that would probably not be appropriate, but I'm just trying to visualize what kind of life scientists or physician entrepreneurs would maybe get to a point where they might say "I need some help." Just examples, maybe from the past.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I will tell you what questions I'm getting, what discussions I'm getting into the most. One discussion I'm very frequently getting into when I discuss the strategy with sciencepreneurs is actually the regulatory strategy. And I'm talking specifically about devices that are FDA regulated.

And so, this question comes up with early startups because they are trying to design their data generation strategy for clinical trials if they have to do clinical trials or any other demonstration project. And the discussion that we typically have is "What is the goal of your regulatory strategy?" And they're like, "Oh, I want to get my product to the market as soon as I can."

But then what is your differentiation of your product? What is your label? What your label will say about your product? And they frequently choose that path of the least resistance which is somehow understandable. But on the other hand, they're losing the ability to drive the value of the product in the market through a very strong label.

That's usually the first discussion that we have. Is it better to get to market fast but have an undifferentiated product? Or is it better to get the market a little later, will cost a little more, but then having a differentiated product? And that's a trade-off, but that's very rarely on top of their mind because many regulatory consultants, maybe they don't ask them the right questions. They say how can I get to the market fastest, not how can I be the most successful in the market. That's a very interesting question that comes up.

The second type of questions come around go-to market strategy. Is it better to position my product in the outpatient clinic? Is it that position in an inpatient setting? And there are a lot of data that have to come into informing a decision like that. That can be both, but it probably cannot be both at the same time, because again, companies have to prioritize which market segments they want to go after.

And here we are frequently dealing with FOMO, the fear of missing out. It almost feels like if I pick one market segment, I will lose the opportunities in the other. But it's really not true. Especially a small company, focusing the resources in one market segment that has reasonable potential and high ability to win is a better strategy than trying to scratch the surface of multiple market segments. I think these are types of decisions and discussions that I am having most of the time with the founders.

John: Now, you kind of touched on the idea of going in the wrong direction. Maybe even I could take it from another perspective and look at it differently, just simply, what are the most common mistakes that you see? Maybe you've already mentioned a couple of them, but what would you say are the mistakes that really overzealous entrepreneurs say, "Okay, I'm going to bring this new device?" And I do want to ask you about AI in a minute, but what are those mistakes that you've identified?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I think a very classical mistake is to focus on product at the expense of focusing on the commercial strategy. And again, commercial strategy does influence the product development. So let's not forget about that. That's why developing at least some basics of the future commercial strategy early on, during product development is necessary. And I see that the founders frequently try to do it in a very linear way. "I do my product first. I don't have time now to focus on commercial. I'll do it later. Let me focus on the product first."

I understand that of course, there is a time when the most of the focus is on the developing of the product, but this has to be with a specific goal in mind. So, how will I market this product? What will be my profile target? What is my target product profile in the market? So, is my minimum viable product actually differentiated enough that I will succeed when I launch it?

All these questions should be answered earlier. And then obviously a company should focus on the product development, but not really push the commercial discussion for later. That's one. The second really big mistake is to jump from product development to sales immediately. So if a founder has a product, it's reaching the regulatory stage, most likely will be approved.

And then they start thinking about sales without thinking about marketing. What does it do to a product? Marketing is the return on investment function. Marketing helps founders to get the highest return with the lowest investment. While if you skip this stage, basically do not develop the value piece in the DIVE framework, jump directly to execution, I think that there's a lot of churn happening with the sales team who doesn't necessarily have clarity about the target segment, may not have clarity about messages, may not have clarity about target customer personas, et cetera.

Because that's all the value development piece. That's another one. Thinking that sales and marketing is one, but it's not. Marketing is a very separate function, and marketing also helps to develop the market itself. Sometimes there needs to be some medical education for prescribers because it's a new solution.

AI is actually a great example of somehow this thing that's coming at us and very few prescribers, clinicians understand that, understand how it works. It's kind of a black box for many. So, how do we educate them in a way that makes them comfortable using some of the AI enabled solutions?

John: Okay. AI. You brought AI up. Because I do have several listeners actually, people that I've been on Mastermind calls with that are really interested in AI. Some have certifications in various types of AI, I guess. But what is going on? How can physicians get more involved in AI if it's something that really interests them? Do you have any advice about that?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I do actually, and I'd like to recommend the organization that is called AIMed, Artificial Intelligence in Medicine. This organization runs trainings and conferences specifically for physicians. I know that there's a lot of education and events around AI. I would say that many of them are highly technical and their audience is mostly people that already have some data science background or IT background. And they're run by data scientists and IT specialists.

Now AIMed took a different approach and I think it's much more suitable for doctors. It's actually doctors in collaboration with data scientists who run these programs. And they are specifically meant for doctors and also for healthcare administration. So I think that's a good organization to be associated with. And in addition to that, there is kind of a sister organization called ABAIM, American Board of Artificial Intelligence in Medicine that runs trainings and board certifications for physicians. So, that's the one that I did.

Obviously, it does explain the technology behind, but is much more focused on the clinical uses of AI. And I think that's what physicians need. They need to understand where AI is really good already, where is it going and how they can kind of start using this without creating risk for their practices or clinics.

John: Okay. I'll put links in the show notes to those organizations if the people have a specific interest in AI. So, what kind of client that might be listening, we have physicians who have some clinical background. Not all of them, some of them have done med school and really didn't do a residency. They could be doing different things, but I know some of them are interested in starting their own businesses or developing a startup. What would be the ideal person to come to you? Someone who hasn't even started yet, or someone who really has something, they have an idea, they maybe have a prototype if it's a product or if it's a software or whatever? And how far along in that journey would they probably be most help by getting someone like you to help them kind of pull it together? Because most of us have some kind of narrow focus, as you said.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yeah. I think that the services that I offer and help that I offer to sciencepreneurs can help them at any stage. And I think it's very important to adjust what I do to what they need. I would say that anyone can contact me, and we definitely can have a discussion. There are no strings attached. I will not try to sell them services that they don't need. I will try to assess their strategic thinking at the stage where they are and see if I can help them at that stage.

Now, some of my more developed services are better suited for companies that already exist. A company needs to exist, and I can help with things like building capabilities, assessing their capabilities versus their strategy. Is there any gap there? Building capabilities, scaling up the company.

I think probably the most value they can get from my services is when they start scaling up the company and when they start thinking about commercialization. These two stages. Now if they want to pick up my brain at earlier stages, I'm very happy to have a chat.

John: Okay. You can be found on LinkedIn.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes.

John: And then you have a website?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I do have a website, abantescientific.com. I just would like to say that I'm redeveloping it right now, so it's not completely to date in terms of my services. That's why I encourage to connect with me through LinkedIn at this point. My website should be much better developed within a month or so.

John: Now, the other thing I would mention because we talked about it and you have actually done some live events and actually created something that's even asynchronous. It's courses or something like that.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yeah.

John: Which you say right now, you can get them to that if they need that or if you feel that's appropriate, but first contact you and then see if they're appropriate for using those kind of resources. Is that correct?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes, definitely. I have also some free resources that I'm very willing to share. I have a newsletter on LinkedIn as well that I encourage everyone to subscribe to. It's specifically meant for founders of life science and digital health startups. And there are a lot of free resources that I'm very, very willing to share.

John: Okay. If somebody out there is really creative, they've got some great ideas, maybe they've already started developing a new business, something in tech, something related to delivering whether it's medical devices or pharmaceuticals or tech, then it would make sense to at least follow you on LinkedIn and then at some point even reach out and pick your brain and maybe even engage you for consulting, if they think that's useful.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes. Or just an initial discussion. As I said, I don't charge anything just to chat with someone about the strategy and understand them a little better and maybe give some expert advice during the initial conversation as well. And then if we find out that I can help, then we can definitely sign some consulting agreement, and I'll be very happy to help.

John: I think that's really useful because I get calls sometimes and they'll say "I'm interested in doing this. And I started working on it, but I don't really know where to go and I don't really have any of that expertise." And so this is a good resource to have. I'll definitely put your LinkedIn and the website at least for now, because you know what? Once it's on there, it's on there forever.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes.

John: Hopefully that will get them wherever they need to go, even a year from now. All right. I think we've covered everything I want to talk about today. Any last minute advice or just last advice for people that have been sort of thinking about doing something crazy with a new device or a new business and they've just been putting it off? In any words of wisdom or encouragement?

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: I think it's a very rewarding path. It's a difficult but rewarding path. And I would say that with the most structured approach, diving into it, it's not so difficult. I am encouraging everyone who thinks about entrepreneurship to try to dive with my help.

John: Can they, at least at the beginning, do this thing part-time and try and see if they're getting some traction before giving up other income? Even though it may be burning out a little bit, but I would think you could at least start part-time.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yes, it's possible. And I see a lot of founders starting part-time. It's very difficult to quit your job and put all your eggs in one basket, especially it's so risky. I actually wouldn't even recommend that. I think doing this part-time is fine at the beginning.

John: And then you can just get a sense of okay, this looks like it's going to catch on. It looks like it's going to be successful. Nothing's guaranteed, but at least then you have something to base a more reasonable decision on.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Yeah.

John: All right, Kasia. This has been really interesting and fun. I thank you very much for being with me today. I'm going to have to check back with you in about a year from now or so and see how things are going.

Dr. Kasia Hein-Peters: Very gladly. Thank you, John, for inviting me. It was a pleasure.

John: You're welcome. Bye-bye.

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Disclaimers:

Many of the links that I refer you to are affiliate links. That means that I receive a payment from the seller if you purchase the affiliate item using my link. Doing so has no effect on the price you are charged. And I only promote products and services that I believe are of high quality and will be useful to you.

The opinions expressed here are mine and my guest’s. While the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there is no express or implied guarantee that using the methods discussed here will lead to success in your career, life, or business.

The information presented on this blog and related podcast is for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. I do not provide medical, legal, tax, or emotional advice. If you take action on the information provided on the blog or podcast, it is at your own risk. Always consult an attorney, accountant, career counselor, or other professional before making any major decisions about your career. 

The post Apply Discovery, Innovation, Value, and Execution to Launch Your Business – 319 appeared first on NonClinical Physicians.