Interview with Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley – 364
This week you will hear priceless advice from an expert in biopharma, Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley. She also brings her experience as a physician career coach and mentor to bear during our conversation.
Over the past five years, Michelle has made significant strides in her biotech career. And she offers valuable insights and advice for physicians looking to transition into the industry.
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The Power of Relationships in Career Transitions
Michelle highlights the critical role of networking in securing nonclinical roles. “These jobs are all about relationships. Often, you end up getting a job not because you’re the best fit, but because you know someone,” she explains.
She recommends using platforms like LinkedIn and Doximity to connect with industry professionals and seek advice and opportunities.
Priceless Advice from an Expert
When pursuing a job in the biopharma sector, Michelle advises against additional certifications or degrees as the first step. Instead, she suggests focusing on building transferable skills and relationships within the industry. “You shouldn’t have to jump through hoops to get a job. You likely already have the knowledge and skills needed,” she assures.
She also advises us to explore the Medical Affairs Professional Society for useful advice and information.
Encouragement for Aspiring Biopharma Professionals
Don’t lose confidence in yourself. We all face rejection and setbacks, but remember, you are good enough for these roles. Keep believing in yourself and stay persistent. – Michelle Mudge-Riley
Summary
To connect with Dr. Mudge-Riley and learn from her experiences, you can find her on LinkedIn, another resource for priceless advice from an expert. She also recommends checking out the Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS) as a fantastic resource for networking and professional growth in the medical affairs field.
Links for Today's Episode:
- Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley's LinkedIn
- Medical Affairs Professional Society (MAPS)
- The Best Biopharma Positions For Motivated Practicing Physicians
- Find Your Great First Nonclinical MSL Job
- Land a Pharma Clinical Development Job: A PNC Classic from 2021
- Landing Your First Pharma Industry Job May Be Easier Than You Think – 311
- Research and Development in Nonclinical Pharma Careers
- The Wonderful World of Nonclinical Pharma Careers
Podcast Editing & Production Services are provided by Oscar Hamilton
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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 364
Priceless Advice From An Expert In The BioPharma Industry
- Interview with Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
John: I'm so happy to welcome today's guest back to the podcast. She's been on the podcast before, but it has been quite a while. She's known as an expert in career transition through coaching and live events, but really she has become an expert in biopharma because she's been working in biopharma and doing some pretty interesting things. I'm really happy to welcome Michelle Mudge-Riley here to the podcast. Hi, Michelle.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Hi, John. So nice to be back with you again.
John: It's great to see you. We were just reminiscing before we started our interview here, but why don't you fill us in a little bit with the highlights of what has transpired in the last five years, let's say, because that's almost as long as it's been since we spoke on the podcast.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Sure. Sounds good. And it really is unbelievable that it's been five years. I know it seems a long time when you're looking at it day to day, but there's so many things you look back and you think, wow, it's been five years or it's been 10 years or it's been years. And yeah, this is a perfect example of that. Yeah, I was the doctor's doctor known as that probably 10, 8 years ago, as I had a thriving business as a career transition coach for physicians. I ran an online and in-person conference. And I also worked for a small boutique consulting company at the time, which enabled me to do a lot of these extra things on the side.
And in my role in that consulting company, I was the medical director for small, medium and large biotech companies. I really enjoyed doing that as well as my side gigs. When COVID hit, that changed everything for everyone. And I won't get into the things that I did with my side gig at that point, but I made some personal decisions that I wanted to look back at my career and have something a little bit different than what I was currently doing. It was like a lot of people, a good time for a change. And that biggest change was that I really wanted to go to the client side, work for a biotech company and experience what it was like on that side versus the consulting side. That's where we were back in 2020.
John: Yeah. Yeah. Now that's a big commitment to make, because you had been doing different things. And of course, even way back before all that, you had a master's degree and did other things as a physician, but that's a big commitment. And as I saw what you were doing, because I could always look on LinkedIn and hopefully you were keeping that up to date. I could see that you were getting involved in more and more different things. I thought you'd be perfect to give us another perspective. I've interviewed a few people working in pharma, but it's usually a specific position we focus on, but I think you can give me a little more of a better perspective, because knowing how physicians are searching for jobs that are more fulfilling and satisfying, and a lot have thought about how can I get into biopharma? So that's why I thought I'd have you come back and enlighten us a little bit today. What is it that interested you about biotech and pharma personally?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, great, great question here. When I started to make my transition over 20 years ago from clinical practice, I considered biotech and pharma and device, and actually did not consider it as seriously as I should have. I thought it was the dark side. I thought it's an easy choice. If you don't want to be a practicing physician, you think about insurance, or you think about pharma. And I didn't want to be such a clich�.
I dabbled a little, but ended up, you're right, getting a master's degree, getting a nutrition, additional training there. I worked for a number of different firms, an employee benefits firm, and then multiple consulting firms. I started some other businesses. And I slowly was always seeing this common thread of being involved with biotech in some way. And I can tell you that what I have done for the past five years has been so fulfilling and so much fun. It's completely changed my life being working directly for a biotech company. And I will most likely finish out my career doing this.
I still have some side gigs. I think that's important. I've always talked about multiple irons in the fire, because it's really easy to get so caught up in the day to day. And you never really know what's going to happen. COVID's another great example, never saw that coming. So making sure that you're diversifying yourself and your career, I still maintain that that's really, really important within compliance, of course, if you're working for a company, that's going to be an issue, which we won't go into today. But it's really fascinating how much fun it is working for biotech. And I know we're going to talk a little bit about that today.
John: Yeah. Well, what's so fun about it? What is it that you personally find to be the fun parts? Because something that's fun for you might not be fun for somebody else. But for you personally, what is it that you like about being involved with the type of company that you are?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, there are two big things that I love about my job. And one is the actual work. And that was something that I've always talked about as being really important, but really hard to find with a career, because you may be influenced by your boss or your colleagues or the autonomy or lack thereof, or all of these other little things, which are also important, by the way. But if you don't like the work, that will drive you to burnout and to just being not your best self.
And so, for me, the work is something I love. I love being able to be able to understand the scientific articles and explain them to others, talk amongst my colleagues about the science and the medicine aspects, learn the new things that we don't learn in medical school about clinical trials and all the aspects. Working with the FDA, looking at the different clinical endpoints, inclusion criteria, talking about the criticisms of different trials and how they compare or don't, and working with other physicians who are experts in the field.
We should get into that too, because that's really interesting working with other physicians, because most people in my position at a pharmaceutical company or device company, they are physicians or their PhDs. And so, how does that differ from the physicians that I work with that are still in practice? But that's an aspect I really, really like as well.
The last part about what I really like about my job is working with very smart and really quirky colleagues. Anyone who's really smart, I feel like has some unique aspect about them that kind of makes them quirky. And I love that about people, just finding out what their unique characteristics are and being able to talk with them about science and just really high level complex stuff, but also get to know them as people and what their hobbies are, what they like to do. They like to go axe throwing or something else that you wouldn't think about. And most people would never think about doing either. Typically people in these companies, they have these really cool hobbies that you then get to learn about.
John: It reminds me about some of the things when I was chief medical officer and thinking back, what did I really like? I really liked the science behind the quality improvement. I would sit in my office by myself creating reports for the board and that. And so, I'm more of an introvert, but that's what I liked. And I had no trouble spending two or three hours doing this report and then explaining it to, let's say, the board or somebody else.
The other thing you mentioned, like the quirky people, our CMO was a nurse. CMO, he was a nurse of course. And he raised chickens. I'm like, okay, there's a weird quirky thing to do. And he'd go to not conferences, but they'd have these shows where he could find the best new chicken breed out there. It's like, you got to be kidding me. But yeah, it's good. It's different than being face-to-face with patients all day. And you do get to interact with physicians in other realms clinically. And the thing again about the pharma and the biotech, it's so scientific. If you have a scientific mind, I think you really fit in well there.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. Yes. I completely agree. I have a colleague who likes to fix coffee makers. How interesting is that? And how different? I would not really thought about doing that, but yeah, just buying coffee makers that may have a small problem and fixing them, making them look really good and selling them. It's interesting.
John: That's interesting. And if yours breaks down, well, you know where to go.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Right. Exactly.
John: To be an entrepreneur and to have to build something yourself is one thing, but tell me, there was something very comforting about being part of a large corporation and probably most pharma companies are massively larger than let's say a hospital that I worked for, but there was just a consistency and the hours were regular and there was a nice IRA or whatever, but that wasn't a pension anymore. But yeah, they had that all worked out. So you find some of that helpful and beneficial as well?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. I think the constant struggle of an entrepreneur is can get old and that grind can get to be something that I've spoken with other physicians who have started companies, sold companies, and then moved into more of a corporate job or just a job where they receive a regular paycheck. It's part of that. Yes. But I will say that in biotech, it's not a massive company all the time that there are really small biotech pharma device companies and they have a different culture than the larger companies. So if someone has tried this before and they haven't really flourished in the way that they want, maybe it's just a matter of a small company versus a large company.
John: How do you prepare for that? What advice do you have? Is there something I can do ahead of time that gives me just a little bit of exposure, maybe a little certain skills that would be good for biotech versus a large pharma company, something like that. Any thoughts on that?Dr.
Michelle Mudge-Riley: It's really hard because you'll hear about physicians and others who have tried for years to get into a biotech company or an insurance company or just to get into this nonclinical career space and have had a lot of difficulty. And so that's a common question. What sort of certifications do you need? What sort of degree? Should I go get an MBA? What have you done to make you successful? And I think the number one thing is that this is really not what people want to hear, but this is what I see over and over and I experienced myself. It's talking to others. It's getting out to people that you don't know that are working in the space and talking to them about what they do.
All of these things are relationship driven type jobs. And often you end up getting your job, maybe not because you're the best fit, but because you knew someone. I don't know, for better for worse, that's how it goes. Because with all of these applicant tracking systems and people not knowing others, you may be the perfect fit for a job or multiple jobs, and you won't even get an interview and that gets people really down. I get it. It's so humbling, but it's not you. It's the system and the system is not perfect. And so, the more people you can talk to and find out about keywords to use, what the industry is actually like, what sort of transferable skills you have. I know you talk about transferable skills on your podcast a lot, and who's there at the company that maybe went to your universe. It could be as simple as that to get that interview. And then everyone likes you when they're talking to you because physicians are typically likable people and we all have the ability to go work at a biotech company if we wanted to.
John: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Between LinkedIn and Doximity, you can probably locate most of your former med school cohorts, your residency, your fellowship, whatever it might be. And chances are someone out of all those hundreds of people that you know, is doing something kind of maybe what you're thinking about. So I've heard that before. And I'm being an introvert. I don't like to really necessarily reach out to people, cold call them, but an email or call they really, they always respond positively in my experience and what I've talked to people about.
I was going to ask you another thing, and it's maybe more about pharma than biotech. See what you think about this. But I imagine if I go on to Pfizer's website and try and apply for a job, I've got about a one in a million chance. But I know pharmaceutical companies use something called the CRO, which we've talked about here before, contract research organization is one definition. But in your experience, whether yourself or with others in businesses you've been involved with, is that something that it can be a bit of a shortcut, or a little easier to get hired than to go directly for one big company?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think it's all about timing. There's some good TED talks that really speak to this. It's all about timing. There are some people who apply to jobs at Pfizer, J&J, or some of these massive companies that you might think of off the top of your head that are pharmaceutical companies when you're starting to think about it. And they're applying, they get the job. But yeah, you're right. In general, these positions, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people applying. And so, it's a numbers game in a lot of aspects. And if you're finding a CRO, or maybe a smaller biotech company that people haven't heard of before, it's numbers game, it's just going to be less applicants. And maybe your application, your resume will catch someone's eye. A lot of this, again, is luck, timing, and you can increase your chances by talking to people in those relationships.
John: It's always better to have someone you can actually send your resume to, even if you go through the electronic version of that, it's still nice to have a human that might be able to sit through them and find yours. See, with the pandemic, it really kind of blew things up a bit. But there used to be some large national meetings that would occur every once in a while. And you could just show up or maybe attend the meeting, maybe it was on some topic related to a diagnostic class or something. And then you could run into people and meet them, take their cards. Does that still happen, do you think?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. I think that still happens a lot. The Medical Affairs Professional Society, or MAPS, is a great example. They have an annual meeting every year in the US. They also have one in the EU every year. That's a great place to maybe start that networking or go to the meeting. It's not a guarantee. So just knowing that ahead of time is important.
John: Let me ask you a definition issue. Because one thing you can do is you can maybe look up people on LinkedIn, again, see if it cross paths with something else you've done in life. But the thing is, what are you looking for? Like medical director, it's a common term in pharma, biotech, medical devices, it doesn't mean that much per se, because it's such a general term. Would that be something you would shoot for right away? Or are there other entry level positions one might usually go to?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, that's a tough one. Because you're right, medical director is such an ambiguous term. And it can mean something different in a lot different industries and at a lot of different companies. It's a good term, but it's going to be tough to use to search and find what you need there.
Medical Science Liaison is more of an entry level sometimes type job into these companies. The thing about an MSL is it's quite different from a medical director. And working as an MSL means you are working within medical affairs, whereas maybe some physicians will be a better fit to work for clinical development, or maybe even clinical operations. Or they may feel like the MSL role is a little bit of a demotion. So, you really have to balance all of those things.
If you're looking to find people in a medical director role, which I think is a really doable and achievable entry level role for most physicians, because we have the degree, we have the background, we have the clinical knowledge, and that's really looked at in a positive way, is to search by different companies. Maybe make a list of companies and then do that cross check and cross reference on LinkedIn. And then you can find people maybe a little bit easier within these different departments at that company.
John: Now, here's the question I've never asked anyone. But again, I'm always noticing these terms and trying to keep them all straight. But I've seen a number of people that the word global is in part, like global medical director, global this, global that. I assume that means because it's international. But what the heck does that really mean? Does it mean you're traveling the globe to do your work? Or what's your experience with that?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: You mean something different at every company. It most likely means that you are on the global team, which means you'll interact with colleagues in the EU or Asia, just somewhere other than the United States. But doesn't necessarily mean that you're traveling there. But it may, it may mean you're traveling there a lot. So it's very different depending on the company.
John: See, I talked to somebody about medical device, he teaches people how to do the MDR stuff in Great Britain. And his comment was though, let's say you're on that side of the pond, and you're looking for a job like this, because we get people that go back and forth. And he said, whatever you're doing there in Europe usually is going to apply in the United States, because all the companies in Europe that make drugs and biotech, they want to also sell in the United States. That can be a good thing to know that there's options on both sides of the Atlantic.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Absolutely, yes, there is a lot of money in drugs in the US for better for worse. We could have a whole conversation about the ethics behind that. And is this the right thing? And how does this work needed for R&D? Let's not go down any of those routes. But you're right. Yes.
John: But I think they're big businesses. And so, they either hire a lot of people directly or indirectly. So that's good. It's a good option for physicians, we're scientists, and we most of us use drugs and medical devices so that kind of makes for a natural transition.
I think you alluded to this next question, but I have it on my list. I'm going to double check. That has to do with how to prepare or to increase your chances. I know we both don't tell people to go out and spend $60,000 or $100,000 on MBA just to get a job in a pharma company. But is there anything out there in terms of maybe a certificate exposure to research? I don't know, ways to get a little bit on your resume that might be might demonstrate some knowledge?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah. I wish but not really. It really comes down to all the things that I talked about before. The timing, the knowing people the right place, right time, you can get certifications just to make sure that you know about these different topics, or you're well educated, you can do a good job in the interviews. And that's great. And maybe that will help you a bit. But it's nothing is a slam dunk guarantee. That's the really hard part about all of this. I wish there was. But if there was, we would already know about it now, I guess, right?
John: Yeah, I think it gets back to what you said earlier, if you can have a connection and find out, narrow your search down based on talking to people, you may find in that particular job that this particular certification might help you get that job, but it's not going to apply across the board.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. And if you're truly interested in that topic, getting that certification is only going to help you. And that's good, you should never just be doing things to get the job. In two years, you're going to be tired of it, you're going to be moving on anyway. So, try to also check your own self and make sure that you're doing these things, because you want this information. And would you do it anyway? Maybe if it's a little bit? Well, no, probably not, a little bit it's okay. But if it's you're just doing this to get the job, that may be also a little bit of a signal that this isn't the right field, or maybe looking at an easier way to do it, because you shouldn't be killing yourself to try to get that job.
John: Yeah, you should have the knowledge and a lot of the skills that already that would apply in that job.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes.
John: Because like you said, so many of them are filled by physicians. So there is a demand there. And it's just a matter of getting that communicated across to the company in the HR department that you're applying to. Okay, Michelle, well, I think I've bent your ear for long enough here. So why don't you close by giving our listeners here some any last minute advice or positive words of encouragement for those that are thinking "I do want to try something different. And I do think it's in the biotech or biopharma area."
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is something that I usually mentioned, so people have heard me speak before they've heard this, and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's lose confidence in yourself. And I'm just as guilty of it as others. We go through these phases where we're so beaten down by rejection, and things not working out, it's really easy to start thinking that you're not good enough, you don't know enough, you're not smart enough, not good looking enough, not tall enough, you're never going to make it. I hate those periods, but we all go through them. And that's what's going to just bring you down even more. Because when you're when you're in that place, you can't be the person that you are. And I think all of us as physicians, we got into med school, we got through at least a year, most of us all the years and all the residency, but whether you cut it short or not, you still were able to get there. And you are good enough to be in one of these jobs.
So don't lose confidence in yourself, do whatever it takes, have your support system, find a therapist, find a coach, find whatever it takes to just kind of get yourself to the point where you're able to talk about your strengths and your weaknesses, but be able to articulate what you want to do, and why you want to do it and why you're a good fit. And then it's a numbers game. It's annoying like that, but it is.
John: Yeah, and I know that you and I both could give dozens, if not hundreds of examples of physicians who have done that, and they thought it was kind of impossible at first, and then they realized "No, it's not." And now they're having great careers and loving it. So that's excellent reminder.
All right, Michelle, with that, I think it's time to say goodbye. I will tell people, I have links in the show notes, just reminding them that they can find you at LinkedIn. And that'd probably be the best way to reach out to you if they have any questions or things they want to double check. Maybe they went to school with you, and they've lost touch. Maybe you can help them get a job in pharma. But anyway, with that, I'll say goodbye.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: That sounds great. Thanks, John. Thanks for your time. Thanks for having me.
John: You're welcome.
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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 364
Priceless Advice From An Expert In The BioPharma Industry
- Interview with Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
John: I'm so happy to welcome today's guest back to the podcast. She's been on the podcast before, but it has been quite a while. She's known as an expert in career transition through coaching and live events, but really she has become an expert in biopharma because she's been working in biopharma and doing some pretty interesting things. I'm really happy to welcome Michelle Mudge-Riley here to the podcast. Hi, Michelle.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Hi, John. So nice to be back with you again.
John: It's great to see you. We were just reminiscing before we started our interview here, but why don't you fill us in a little bit with the highlights of what has transpired in the last five years, let's say, because that's almost as long as it's been since we spoke on the podcast.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Sure. Sounds good. And it really is unbelievable that it's been five years. I know it seems a long time when you're looking at it day to day, but there's so many things you look back and you think, wow, it's been five years or it's been 10 years or it's been years. And yeah, this is a perfect example of that. Yeah, I was the doctor's doctor known as that probably 10, 8 years ago, as I had a thriving business as a career transition coach for physicians. I ran an online and in-person conference. And I also worked for a small boutique consulting company at the time, which enabled me to do a lot of these extra things on the side.
And in my role in that consulting company, I was the medical director for small, medium and large biotech companies. I really enjoyed doing that as well as my side gigs. When COVID hit, that changed everything for everyone. And I won't get into the things that I did with my side gig at that point, but I made some personal decisions that I wanted to look back at my career and have something a little bit different than what I was currently doing. It was like a lot of people, a good time for a change. And that biggest change was that I really wanted to go to the client side, work for a biotech company and experience what it was like on that side versus the consulting side. That's where we were back in 2020.
John: Yeah. Yeah. Now that's a big commitment to make, because you had been doing different things. And of course, even way back before all that, you had a master's degree and did other things as a physician, but that's a big commitment. And as I saw what you were doing, because I could always look on LinkedIn and hopefully you were keeping that up to date. I could see that you were getting involved in more and more different things. I thought you'd be perfect to give us another perspective. I've interviewed a few people working in pharma, but it's usually a specific position we focus on, but I think you can give me a little more of a better perspective, because knowing how physicians are searching for jobs that are more fulfilling and satisfying, and a lot have thought about how can I get into biopharma? So that's why I thought I'd have you come back and enlighten us a little bit today. What is it that interested you about biotech and pharma personally?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, great, great question here. When I started to make my transition over 20 years ago from clinical practice, I considered biotech and pharma and device, and actually did not consider it as seriously as I should have. I thought it was the dark side. I thought it's an easy choice. If you don't want to be a practicing physician, you think about insurance, or you think about pharma. And I didn't want to be such a clich�.
I dabbled a little, but ended up, you're right, getting a master's degree, getting a nutrition, additional training there. I worked for a number of different firms, an employee benefits firm, and then multiple consulting firms. I started some other businesses. And I slowly was always seeing this common thread of being involved with biotech in some way. And I can tell you that what I have done for the past five years has been so fulfilling and so much fun. It's completely changed my life being working directly for a biotech company. And I will most likely finish out my career doing this.
I still have some side gigs. I think that's important. I've always talked about multiple irons in the fire, because it's really easy to get so caught up in the day to day. And you never really know what's going to happen. COVID's another great example, never saw that coming. So making sure that you're diversifying yourself and your career, I still maintain that that's really, really important within compliance, of course, if you're working for a company, that's going to be an issue, which we won't go into today. But it's really fascinating how much fun it is working for biotech. And I know we're going to talk a little bit about that today.
John: Yeah. Well, what's so fun about it? What is it that you personally find to be the fun parts? Because something that's fun for you might not be fun for somebody else. But for you personally, what is it that you like about being involved with the type of company that you are?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, there are two big things that I love about my job. And one is the actual work. And that was something that I've always talked about as being really important, but really hard to find with a career, because you may be influenced by your boss or your colleagues or the autonomy or lack thereof, or all of these other little things, which are also important, by the way. But if you don't like the work, that will drive you to burnout and to just being not your best self.
And so, for me, the work is something I love. I love being able to be able to understand the scientific articles and explain them to others, talk amongst my colleagues about the science and the medicine aspects, learn the new things that we don't learn in medical school about clinical trials and all the aspects. Working with the FDA, looking at the different clinical endpoints, inclusion criteria, talking about the criticisms of different trials and how they compare or don't, and working with other physicians who are experts in the field.
We should get into that too, because that's really interesting working with other physicians, because most people in my position at a pharmaceutical company or device company, they are physicians or their PhDs. And so, how does that differ from the physicians that I work with that are still in practice? But that's an aspect I really, really like as well.
The last part about what I really like about my job is working with very smart and really quirky colleagues. Anyone who's really smart, I feel like has some unique aspect about them that kind of makes them quirky. And I love that about people, just finding out what their unique characteristics are and being able to talk with them about science and just really high level complex stuff, but also get to know them as people and what their hobbies are, what they like to do. They like to go axe throwing or something else that you wouldn't think about. And most people would never think about doing either. Typically people in these companies, they have these really cool hobbies that you then get to learn about.
John: It reminds me about some of the things when I was chief medical officer and thinking back, what did I really like? I really liked the science behind the quality improvement. I would sit in my office by myself creating reports for the board and that. And so, I'm more of an introvert, but that's what I liked. And I had no trouble spending two or three hours doing this report and then explaining it to, let's say, the board or somebody else.
The other thing you mentioned, like the quirky people, our CMO was a nurse. CMO, he was a nurse of course. And he raised chickens. I'm like, okay, there's a weird quirky thing to do. And he'd go to not conferences, but they'd have these shows where he could find the best new chicken breed out there. It's like, you got to be kidding me. But yeah, it's good. It's different than being face-to-face with patients all day. And you do get to interact with physicians in other realms clinically. And the thing again about the pharma and the biotech, it's so scientific. If you have a scientific mind, I think you really fit in well there.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. Yes. I completely agree. I have a colleague who likes to fix coffee makers. How interesting is that? And how different? I would not really thought about doing that, but yeah, just buying coffee makers that may have a small problem and fixing them, making them look really good and selling them. It's interesting.
John: That's interesting. And if yours breaks down, well, you know where to go.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Right. Exactly.
John: To be an entrepreneur and to have to build something yourself is one thing, but tell me, there was something very comforting about being part of a large corporation and probably most pharma companies are massively larger than let's say a hospital that I worked for, but there was just a consistency and the hours were regular and there was a nice IRA or whatever, but that wasn't a pension anymore. But yeah, they had that all worked out. So you find some of that helpful and beneficial as well?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes. I think the constant struggle of an entrepreneur is can get old and that grind can get to be something that I've spoken with other physicians who have started companies, sold companies, and then moved into more of a corporate job or just a job where they receive a regular paycheck. It's part of that. Yes. But I will say that in biotech, it's not a massive company all the time that there are really small biotech pharma device companies and they have a different culture than the larger companies. So if someone has tried this before and they haven't really flourished in the way that they want, maybe it's just a matter of a small company versus a large company.
John: How do you prepare for that? What advice do you have? Is there something I can do ahead of time that gives me just a little bit of exposure, maybe a little certain skills that would be good for biotech versus a large pharma company, something like that. Any thoughts on that?Dr.
Michelle Mudge-Riley: It's really hard because you'll hear about physicians and others who have tried for years to get into a biotech company or an insurance company or just to get into this nonclinical career space and have had a lot of difficulty. And so that's a common question. What sort of certifications do you need? What sort of degree? Should I go get an MBA? What have you done to make you successful? And I think the number one thing is that this is really not what people want to hear, but this is what I see over and over and I experienced myself. It's talking to others. It's getting out to people that you don't know that are working in the space and talking to them about what they do.
All of these things are relationship driven type jobs. And often you end up getting your job, maybe not because you're the best fit, but because you knew someone. I don't know, for better for worse, that's how it goes. Because with all of these applicant tracking systems and people not knowing others, you may be the perfect fit for a job or multiple jobs, and you won't even get an interview and that gets people really down. I get it. It's so humbling, but it's not you. It's the system and the system is not perfect. And so, the more people you can talk to and find out about keywords to use, what the industry is actually like, what sort of transferable skills you have. I know you talk about transferable skills on your podcast a lot, and who's there at the company that maybe went to your universe. It could be as simple as that to get that interview. And then everyone likes you when they're talking to you because physicians are typically likable people and we all have the ability to go work at a biotech company if we wanted to.
John: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Between LinkedIn and Doximity, you can probably locate most of your former med school cohorts, your residency, your fellowship, whatever it might be. And chances are someone out of all those hundreds of people that you know, is doing something kind of maybe what you're thinking about. So I've heard that before. And I'm being an introvert. I don't like to really necessarily reach out to people, cold call them, but an email or call they really, they always respond positively in my experience and what I've talked to people about.
I was going to ask you another thing, and it's maybe more about pharma than biotech. See what you think about this. But I imagine if I go on to Pfizer's website and try and apply for a job, I've got about a one in a million chance. But I know pharmaceutical companies use something called the CRO, which we've talked about here before, contract research organization is one definition. But in your experience, whether yourself or with others in businesses you've been involved with, is that something that it can be a bit of a shortcut, or a little easier to get hired than to go directly for one big company?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think it's all about timing. There's some good TED talks that really speak to this. It's all about timing. There are some people who apply to jobs at Pfizer, J&J, or some of these massive companies that you might think of off the top of your head that are pharmaceutical companies when you're starting to think about it. And they're applying, they get the job. But yeah, you're right. In general, these positions, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people applying. And so, it's a numbers game in a lot of aspects. And if you're finding a CRO, or maybe a smaller biotech company that people haven't heard of before, it's numbers game, it's just going to be less applicants. And maybe your application, your resume will catch someone's eye. A lot of this, again, is luck, timing, and you can increase your chances by talking to people in those relationships.
John: It's always better to have someone you can actually send your resume to, even if you go through the electronic version of that, it's still nice to have a human that might be able to sit through them and find yours. See, with the pandemic, it really kind of blew things up a bit. But there used to be some large national meetings that would occur every once in a while. And you could just show up or maybe attend the meeting, maybe it was on some topic related to a diagnostic class or something. And then you could run into people and meet them, take their cards. Does that still happen, do you think?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. I think that still happens a lot. The Medical Affairs Professional Society, or MAPS, is a great example. They have an annual meeting every year in the US. They also have one in the EU every year. That's a great place to maybe start that networking or go to the meeting. It's not a guarantee. So just knowing that ahead of time is important.
John: Let me ask you a definition issue. Because one thing you can do is you can maybe look up people on LinkedIn, again, see if it cross paths with something else you've done in life. But the thing is, what are you looking for? Like medical director, it's a common term in pharma, biotech, medical devices, it doesn't mean that much per se, because it's such a general term. Would that be something you would shoot for right away? Or are there other entry level positions one might usually go to?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, that's a tough one. Because you're right, medical director is such an ambiguous term. And it can mean something different in a lot different industries and at a lot of different companies. It's a good term, but it's going to be tough to use to search and find what you need there.
Medical Science Liaison is more of an entry level sometimes type job into these companies. The thing about an MSL is it's quite different from a medical director. And working as an MSL means you are working within medical affairs, whereas maybe some physicians will be a better fit to work for clinical development, or maybe even clinical operations. Or they may feel like the MSL role is a little bit of a demotion. So, you really have to balance all of those things.
If you're looking to find people in a medical director role, which I think is a really doable and achievable entry level role for most physicians, because we have the degree, we have the background, we have the clinical knowledge, and that's really looked at in a positive way, is to search by different companies. Maybe make a list of companies and then do that cross check and cross reference on LinkedIn. And then you can find people maybe a little bit easier within these different departments at that company.
John: Now, here's the question I've never asked anyone. But again, I'm always noticing these terms and trying to keep them all straight. But I've seen a number of people that the word global is in part, like global medical director, global this, global that. I assume that means because it's international. But what the heck does that really mean? Does it mean you're traveling the globe to do your work? Or what's your experience with that?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: You mean something different at every company. It most likely means that you are on the global team, which means you'll interact with colleagues in the EU or Asia, just somewhere other than the United States. But doesn't necessarily mean that you're traveling there. But it may, it may mean you're traveling there a lot. So it's very different depending on the company.
John: See, I talked to somebody about medical device, he teaches people how to do the MDR stuff in Great Britain. And his comment was though, let's say you're on that side of the pond, and you're looking for a job like this, because we get people that go back and forth. And he said, whatever you're doing there in Europe usually is going to apply in the United States, because all the companies in Europe that make drugs and biotech, they want to also sell in the United States. That can be a good thing to know that there's options on both sides of the Atlantic.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Absolutely, yes, there is a lot of money in drugs in the US for better for worse. We could have a whole conversation about the ethics behind that. And is this the right thing? And how does this work needed for R&D? Let's not go down any of those routes. But you're right. Yes.
John: But I think they're big businesses. And so, they either hire a lot of people directly or indirectly. So that's good. It's a good option for physicians, we're scientists, and we most of us use drugs and medical devices so that kind of makes for a natural transition.
I think you alluded to this next question, but I have it on my list. I'm going to double check. That has to do with how to prepare or to increase your chances. I know we both don't tell people to go out and spend $60,000 or $100,000 on MBA just to get a job in a pharma company. But is there anything out there in terms of maybe a certificate exposure to research? I don't know, ways to get a little bit on your resume that might be might demonstrate some knowledge?
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah. I wish but not really. It really comes down to all the things that I talked about before. The timing, the knowing people the right place, right time, you can get certifications just to make sure that you know about these different topics, or you're well educated, you can do a good job in the interviews. And that's great. And maybe that will help you a bit. But it's nothing is a slam dunk guarantee. That's the really hard part about all of this. I wish there was. But if there was, we would already know about it now, I guess, right?
John: Yeah, I think it gets back to what you said earlier, if you can have a connection and find out, narrow your search down based on talking to people, you may find in that particular job that this particular certification might help you get that job, but it's not going to apply across the board.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes, yes. And if you're truly interested in that topic, getting that certification is only going to help you. And that's good, you should never just be doing things to get the job. In two years, you're going to be tired of it, you're going to be moving on anyway. So, try to also check your own self and make sure that you're doing these things, because you want this information. And would you do it anyway? Maybe if it's a little bit? Well, no, probably not, a little bit it's okay. But if it's you're just doing this to get the job, that may be also a little bit of a signal that this isn't the right field, or maybe looking at an easier way to do it, because you shouldn't be killing yourself to try to get that job.
John: Yeah, you should have the knowledge and a lot of the skills that already that would apply in that job.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yes.
John: Because like you said, so many of them are filled by physicians. So there is a demand there. And it's just a matter of getting that communicated across to the company in the HR department that you're applying to. Okay, Michelle, well, I think I've bent your ear for long enough here. So why don't you close by giving our listeners here some any last minute advice or positive words of encouragement for those that are thinking "I do want to try something different. And I do think it's in the biotech or biopharma area."
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is something that I usually mentioned, so people have heard me speak before they've heard this, and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's lose confidence in yourself. And I'm just as guilty of it as others. We go through these phases where we're so beaten down by rejection, and things not working out, it's really easy to start thinking that you're not good enough, you don't know enough, you're not smart enough, not good looking enough, not tall enough, you're never going to make it. I hate those periods, but we all go through them. And that's what's going to just bring you down even more. Because when you're when you're in that place, you can't be the person that you are. And I think all of us as physicians, we got into med school, we got through at least a year, most of us all the years and all the residency, but whether you cut it short or not, you still were able to get there. And you are good enough to be in one of these jobs.
So don't lose confidence in yourself, do whatever it takes, have your support system, find a therapist, find a coach, find whatever it takes to just kind of get yourself to the point where you're able to talk about your strengths and your weaknesses, but be able to articulate what you want to do, and why you want to do it and why you're a good fit. And then it's a numbers game. It's annoying like that, but it is.
John: Yeah, and I know that you and I both could give dozens, if not hundreds of examples of physicians who have done that, and they thought it was kind of impossible at first, and then they realized "No, it's not." And now they're having great careers and loving it. So that's excellent reminder.
All right, Michelle, with that, I think it's time to say goodbye. I will tell people, I have links in the show notes, just reminding them that they can find you at LinkedIn. And that'd probably be the best way to reach out to you if they have any questions or things they want to double check. Maybe they went to school with you, and they've lost touch. Maybe you can help them get a job in pharma. But anyway, with that, I'll say goodbye.
Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley: That sounds great. Thanks, John. Thanks for your time. Thanks for having me.
John: You're welcome.
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