Interview with Helen Hansen – 466
In today's interview, Heather Hansen, trial attorney, communication coach, and former anchor at the Law and Crime Network, explains what it actually takes to be a credible and effective medical expert witness.
She brings over 25 years of medical malpractice defense experience to the conversation, and her focus is squarely on the communication and mindset side of expert witness work that most business-focused resources don't address.
What Attorneys Actually Want From an Expert Witness
Attorneys want three things from a medical expert, and none of them is simply being right about the medicine. The first is a partner, someone who tells the attorney where the weaknesses in the case are, what questions might be appropriate for other witnesses, and what the day-to-day reality of clinical practice actually looks like, because attorneys cannot paint an accurate picture of a hospital setting they have never worked in.
The second is a teacher. The best experts know how to translate complex medicine for a jury that may not have a high school education. That means storytelling, metaphor, and meeting different kinds of learners where they are, not just stating the correct medical opinion and assuming it lands.
The third is cognitive empathy, which is distinct from affective empathy. It is not feeling what the jury feels. It is seeing the case through their eyes and speaking directly to that perspective. An expert's primary job, in Heather's framing, is to serve the jury, not to win the case for the attorney who retained them.
Expert vs. Authority: Why the Distinction Matters
Every physician who testifies is an expert by definition: the CV, the training, the experience are all there. But not every expert is believed, and the jury's belief is what determines the outcome. Heather describes this through what she calls the belief triangle: they believe in you based on your credentials, they believe you when your behavior is consistent, and your preparation is evident. And they believe you can help them when you demonstrate that you understand what they don't know and are actively closing that gap.
The other difference between an expert and an authority is that the authority is the one the jury trusts. That trust is built through preparation, plain language, and the willingness to teach rather than perform.
These concepts are taught in Heather's course, which also addresses cross-examination skills, video testimony, charismatic leadership tactics, and the specific nervous system responses — fight, flight, freeze, and fawn — that derail witnesses under pressure. The physicians most likely to succeed in this role are not necessarily the most extroverted or confident. They are the curious ones with a lifelong learning mindset and the ability to see a case from multiple perspectives.
Summary
Expert witness work rewards physicians who invest in communication skills as seriously as they invest in knowing the medicine and business principles. Preparation matters: full days set aside before depositions, not an hour here and there. Working both plaintiff and defense sides builds credibility over time. And treating every deposition as if it were the trial is now standard practice on the attorney side, whether experts are ready for it or not.
Heather's courses, LinkedIn content, and Thursday newsletter are available at hhansengroup.com.
NOTE: Look below for a transcript of today's episode.
EXCLUSIVE: Get a regular dose of inspiration, information, news, training opportunities, and amusing stories by CLICKING HERE.
Links for Today's Episode:
- Heather Hansen's Website
- Heather Hansen's LinkedIn Page
- Why We Click by Kate Murphy
- The Nature of Leadership by John Antonakis
- The Complete Guide to Expert Witness Consulting for Physicians Part 1
- The Complete Guide to Expert Witness Consulting for Physicians Part 2
- Why Become an Expert Witness and How to Begin
- Expert Witness or Medical Legal Consulting: Which Should You Pursue?
- Priceless Advice for the New Expert Witness
Download This Episode:
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Medical Expert Witness - You Must Know This to Be Successful - 466
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You're listening to Physician Non-Clinical Careers with John Jurica, episode number 466: Medical Expert Witness: You Must Know This to Be Successful. Welcome back, non-clinical nation. Today I'm presenting my interview with Heather Hansen, a seasoned trial attorney and authority on communication and credibility for healthcare professionals.
For more than 20 years, she defended high-stakes medical malpractice cases, and she designed a three-year curriculum for residents providing proven tools in communication, risk reduction, and patient advocacy. Heather has helped prepare thousands of medical providers to testify with credibility and charisma.
Today, she explains why it is absolutely essential that every medical expert witness adopt the attitudes, communication skills, and cognitive empathy to be successful in this role. Okay then, let's meet our [00:01:00] guest: John Jurica: Today's guest is a seasoned attorney and communication expert, and today we're going to pick her brain primarily about two issues that are, I think, important to physicians. The first is surviving a malpractice, ~uh,~ case, a lawsuit, and the second is considering becoming, ~uh,~ an expert witness or how to be a better expert witness.
So Heather Hansen, welcome to the show.
Heather Hansen: John, it's so nice to be here. Thank you for having me.
John Jurica: There's not a better friend that a physician can have ... when they need them, ~um, is, b- ~is, would be an attorney. Malpractice for sure. ~You know, ~the other day I was doing some estate planning with my attorney, and I've had this guy for, ~like,~ 30 years since I moved here, and I said, ~"You know, ~I don't know what I would do without you," ~you know?~
Yeah. My attorney. It's just, ~uh, uh, y- ~we just need attorneys, ~so.~
Heather Hansen: It's so nice you say that because most doctors I talk to are not big fans,
John Jurica: because the other side- ~You know, ~when they think about it, ~you know, ~they think about being on the other end. But, ~uh,~ but yeah, ~I,~ I think we all know that we have to have those colleagues.
So tell [00:02:00] us how do you become ~a, a,~ an attorney and, ~uh,~ tell us just a little bit about what you do, and then we'll get into some questions that I have.
Heather Hansen: Sure. ~I, uh, I... ~Well, I have a psychology degree, which I think is important. That's my undergrad degree, and I think that's important because it's ~kind of ~rare for lawyers, and it was the most important part of my practice.
~Uh, ~I went to law school, and while I was in law school I started working at a firm that only did medical malpractice defense, and I stayed at that firm for the entirety of my career as a trial attorney, which was over 25 years. I defended doctors, hospitals, nurses, all of the healthcare professionals for all of those years, and I loved it.
I was fortunate enough to be, ~um,~ recognized as one of the top 5% of trial lawyers in the nation. I tried a lot of cases in Philadelphia, which is a very challenging venue for doctors and hospitals, ~um,~ and I absolutely loved it. I loved my role as counselor and to help doctors, nurses who had been sued or who had to testify through that experience.
But then I realized that I never wanted to retire and I [00:03:00] wanted to try something new, so I did a couple things. I got certified as a mediator. ~Uh, ~I got certified as a coach. I got certified as a hypnotist, John, because I wanted to study the subconscious mind. ~Um, ~and then I did some television. I was an anchor at the Law and Crime Network for a number of years.
~Hmm. ~And now I've combined all of that to teach people how to be better communicators, and ultimately how to go from expert to authority. And so I do that in a number of different settings, primarily for healthcare providers, healthcare professionals, ~uh,~ but also in the corporate world. I do some coaching and I have some courses on how to be the chosen authority.
John Jurica: ~Well, ~I think this is gonna be perfect for my listeners. ~Uh, ~they know that I've talked to physicians who are expert witnesses, and ~t- ~sometimes talk about how to set that business up as a consultant. But, ~uh,~ we've never addressed the issue of, ~like,~ how to be an excellent expert witness, what that means, the personality, the techniques, the communication styles [00:04:00] and all that.
So this is gonna be good. ~Um, ~so why don't we start with that? I saw an article recently that I think you wrote that was talking about, ~um,~ how, and it basically boiled down to how physicians should assist their defense attorney, what they should know and do. So maybe you can hit some of those high points, 'cause those were quite interesting.
Heather Hansen: I'm happy to. I do wanna say the work that I do with experts is- ~Uh, ~very deliberately for both sides. ~Mm-hmm. ~I think every expert should work to do both sides. I know as experts it's, it can be challenging, but it really makes you more credible. ~You know, ~I don't only serve defense experts on purpose. In fact, it seems that I'm serving more of plaintiffs' experts right now, and there's- ~Hmm~
reasons for ~that,~ that we don't need to get into. But the truth of it is, I want everyone who is an expert to do both sides. And, ~um,~ and it ~sort of ~touches upon some of the things in that article. In that article, I talked about what a lawyer really wants in an expert, and the first thing is they want a partner.
~You know, ~you know the medicine better than we ever could. Now, I will say [00:05:00] that some lawyers like myself who have done this for a long time, we think we are doctors secretly. ~You know, ~I did a lot of orthopedic work and a lot of obstetric work, and I ... There's some part of me that thinks I could do a knee replacement or deliver a baby, but the truth is that no one knows it as well as you do.
So for you to partner with the attorney that you work with, to tell them where the weaknesses in the case are, to tell them what kinds of questions might be appropriate for other experts or for the defendants, ~and,~ and this is not just medical malpractice cases, this can be all kinds of cases. That is really important, because we don't know what you know.
And it's not just the medicine, John. It's also what goes on in a hospital. What does your day look like? Because good lawyers want to paint ~a,~ a movie for the jury, and we aren't, can't do that movie as well as you can, 'cause we haven't been there. And so we really need your help to say, "This is where we sit.
This is where we read those fetal monitoring strips. [00:06:00] This is what I'm doing when I'm not at the patient's bedside." So the first thing is to be a partner The second thing is to be a teacher. ~You know, ~I think a big part of the reason I did so well as a trial attorney is I was very good at translating what a doctor would say, who had the curse of knowledge and knew what trochanteric wires and ~f- uh, ~fetal decelerations were, and translating that to a jury that often didn't have a high school education.
John Jurica: ~Mm-hmm. ~
Heather Hansen: The best experts know how to do that as well. ~You know, ~they really know how to teach, how to lay things out, understanding that they have some students who learn better by storytelling, some students who learn better by metaphor, and really teaching. So that's the second thing. And the third thing is to be a cognitive empath.
Now, there's a difference between cognitive empathy and affective empathy. Affective empathy is feeling what the other person feels. I don't think that's necessary in a lot of jobs, and certainly not here. Cognitive empathy is seeing what they see. And [00:07:00] ultimately, the experts who go through my course know the entire course is really for the jury.
Because ultimately, an expert's job is to serve the jury. They have the most difficult job in the courtroom. They are the heroes in the courtroom, and a good expert can see the case, ~the,~ the medicine through the jury's eyes, and then speak to that perspective. And so those are the three things that I try to teach, and that I believe that every good lawyer wants in their expert.
John Jurica: That's interesting because, not that I sit in on any trials ~you know, ~of my colleagues, but I can ~kind of, ~just knowing them, their personality, and I'm thinking to myself when they're in a lawsuit like, "There's no way this is gonna work," because they are the worst at communicating with their patients, number one.
Yeah. And number two, they don't understand the system as well as they really should, which is a big thing in becoming a physician executive, is understanding that you are in a system. So those points are just awesome.
Heather Hansen: ~I, I, the,~ the system part is so important. To [00:08:00] understand the system you're in and how it works, ~you know, ~sometimes I'll talk about it as a game, ~and,~ and sometimes defendants get upset about that.
~The, the,~ the problem is, whether you call it a system or a game or theater- Yeah ... it's not what you're used to, and so you really need to understand it and know it. The other thing that's worth mentioning, you said about communicators, there's actually research that says that there's no ~cor- ~this is research from New England Journal of Medicine and Harvard.
~Mm-hmm. ~It says that there's no correlation between negligence and lawsuits. The correlation is communication skills. And so I have been teaching communication skills to healthcare professionals for 25 years. ~Um, ~I created a program for residents. ~I mean, ~it's really important that physicians, healthcare professionals who maybe never learned these skills start learning them, especially in the face of AI.
John Jurica: ~You know, ~another time I saw that, I'm basically the POA for my aunt who's in her 90s, and she was hospitalized, ~uh,~ one time, ~well,~ several times, and anyway, when the people came in and communicated with her, talked to her, whatever, ~I mean,~ I would just go, "Whoa, this- ... [00:09:00] that is not getting through at all, and you're spending 30 seconds.
You feel like you're in a hurry. There's no rapport here at all, so ~you're,~ you're... If something happens, you're gonna be the one that's gonna be pointed at."
Heather Hansen: 100%, and something's more likely to happen. ~I mean, ~there's so much we could talk. ~We, ~I could go down that rabbit hole forever. Those skills. And the thing is, for what your listeners do, ~right,~ your listeners are doing all kinds of things ~sort of ~outside of that clinical setting.
Those same communication skills I've taught to Google, LVMH, Berkshire Hathaway. They apply outside of the clinical setting as well, and they're what make you successful.
John Jurica: Yeah, ~I mean, ~I could go on. ~Uh, you know, ~I know people who are just naturally confrontational. I'm assuming you don't wanna get into an argument in the middle of a lawsuit or even a deposition.
Heather Hansen: No, you don't. In fact, one of the things that one of the modules in my course is talking about, it's not just fight and flight, 'cause usually when you're fighting, it's a response to threat. You feel threatened, and you think that the response is ... or you might not even think. Your nervous system might just go to fighting.
And we often think of fight or [00:10:00] flight, but there's also freeze and fawn. And I find in the deposition setting, because they can't flee, there's nowhere that they can go, and they can't freeze, they have to ultimately answer the questions, people resort to fighting or fawning, which is just to give in. "Oh, you're right, I give in."
John Jurica: ~Mm. ~
Heather Hansen: And so we do the work in the course to overcome that tendency so that you can really testify to the utmost of your ability.
John Jurica: That's very useful, I would think. Very useful. All right. ~Well, ~anything else you wanna say about that aspect of it, just being a good witness, ~uh, f- ~other things beyond that?
Heather Hansen: Yeah.
I think, ~you know, ~being a good witness is a, ~there's,~ there's a difference between being a good expert, and I know you've had some of the people on the business side, because most cases, it's true, don't go to trial. However, most cases do involve depositions. ~Mm-hmm. ~And attorneys are recognizing ~th- ~both of those facts, and they're really approaching depositions as if they are trial.
John Jurica: ~Mm. ~
Heather Hansen: And so it's no longer just like discovery, let me ask some questions. It's cross-examination at [00:11:00] deposition. And so if you're not ready for that as an expert, you will suffer for that. Not only will you suffer in the moment when it's so uncomfortable, but also a big part of expert work is word of mouth, and you won't get as much expert work if you're not good at testifying.
And ~so, ~and also if the case goes to ~the jury,~ the jury won't be well-served. You won't be really telling them what they need to know to do their job. And so it's really important to learn how to testify, how to manage cross-examination, how to calm your nervous system so that you can optimize your charisma.
And when I talk about charisma, there's actually research. It's, ~uh,~ Dr. John Antonakis is his name. There are 12 charismatic leadership tactics, is what he calls them-
John Jurica: ~Mm ~...
Heather Hansen: that anyone can study and learn and master, and I teach those in the course as well.
John Jurica: Nice. So ~I mean, ~we're talking now about being an expert witness.
I think, ~uh, you know, ~when I think of it, ~well,~ you're gonna be your own expert witness if you're defending yourself, but now let's ~th- ~talk about this, 'cause you've already kinda got into it. Is [00:12:00] that, is your course designed for being a better expert ~witness,~ witness, and if you're doing that job, then maybe you need to really focus a lot on that communication piece?
Heather Hansen: Yeah, so the course that is currently, ~that,~ that I have currently, the next cohort starts in September. That course is on- it's for expert witnesses of all kinds, not just physicians- ~Mm-hmm ~... and how to be a better expert witness. I have another course, How to Be Chosen, which is all about communication skills more generally.
But ~this has, ~this course has specific modules on cross-examination, examples of cross-examination. ~Um, ~I cite to some YouTube videos from when I was at the Law and Crime Network of Johnny Depp's trial and some of the more famous trials, and pointing out where some cross-examinations are great and not so great.
And so it's really focused on that
John Jurica: Okay, I'm gonna pause right here because sometimes not everyone listens to the very end. So tell me where they would find you and your courses so we have that ~in,~ in, on the recording.
Heather Hansen: I so appreciate that. So my website is, ~uh,~ hhansengroup, [00:13:00] H-H-A-N-S-E-N group.com, and ~there,~ there is a, ~uh,~ a dropdown for courses.
John Jurica: Okay, great, and then we'll go- we'll probably do that again at the end. But I wanna pick your brain about being, ~uh,~ an expert witness and just the whole idea of it as an option, because it's a decision to make for a physician. You can't really just do this like, "Well, I'm gonna do it three or four times a year."
No. If you wanna do it, you should do it right. So let me ask you first, in your opinion, is there a big need, is there a mild, moderate need for new, more physician ex- And what is ~the,~ the status now? Are you overwhelmed with the many, how many there are or not?
Heather Hansen: There's a huge need. Okay. ~And it, ~and ~it's a growing, ~it's a growing, ~um,~ business.
It's funny, John, because I started this very organically. I was doing witness prep for various attorneys on both sides of all kinds of cases, and I kept hearing ... And it was for parties ~or,~ or witnesses, named witnesses, but I kept hearing from both sides of the aisle, the people who really need the help is the experts.
They don't get any of this training, and typically [00:14:00] attorneys don't spend a lot of time training them how to testify. They're focused on the content of the case. And I heard that enough times that I thought ~I,~ I could maybe create something for these people. And then I went onto LinkedIn and started seeing that there's a lot of people who have lists of experts and places that you can go to become a better expert in the business of it, but there's nobody teaching you what ~I,~ I am uniquely qualified to teach, which is this piece of it.
There is a huge demand, and there's a huge demand for good experts. ~You know, ~a lot of times, ~um,~ especially on the defense side, lawyers tend to use the same experts over and over again because they don't know, ~you know, sort of ~the untrusted, untested expert who's maybe never testified. They don't know how well they're going to do.
But it's often those newer experts that have the most credibility with a jury, because they haven't done it 100 times for the same lawyer. ~Hmm. ~And so anybody who's listening that this is intriguing for you, that you're interested in, if [00:15:00] you're, ~you know, ~you're interested in being a better communicator, you're interested in the legal system, you're interested in
Really my big focus is helping juries understand complicated medicine. If you like teaching, then this is definitely an area that can be ~an adj, a, you know, ~an adjunct to your clinical practice.
John Jurica: Okay. Can you tell when you're talking with someone, ~um, you know, ~maybe you're defending them or, ~uh,~ whatever, ~uh,~ maybe you just happen to have a relationship in some way.
~I mean, ~can you tell which ones naturally would make for better, ~uh,~ medical expert witnesses?
Heather Hansen: ~Well, ~it's an interesting thing because, ~you know, ~you think like extroverts, people who are very like big with the body language. That's not necessarily going to be the best expert witnesses. I've reached out to some people who say ~like, ~"Oh no, I'm good.
I've done this a bunch." And I always think ~like, ~oh, if you're not a ... If you have a fixed mindset, you probably get caught on cross-examination. ~You know? ~So I can tell, but it's not what you might think. It's not somebody who's very, ~like,~ good-looking and charismatic the way, and I put that [00:16:00] in quotes, air quotes, the way that you might think.
It's someone who's a lifelong learner, who's curious, who's got that cognitive empathy. I think that ~that ~is the top of the list for me. Are they able to see things from different perspectives? Can they see where ~w- ~they have their opinion about a case, but also see where there might be things that they could be cross-examined on?
Those types of people are going to make the best experts. The charisma I can teach. Those 12 charismatic leadership tactics, they are proven with rigorous research to help you be more charismatic. I can also teach how to be more credible. I can teach how to be more compassionate. But the curiosity and the, ~uh,~ the cognitive empathy, that is really the thing that you need to have ~to,~ to be the best at this overall.
John Jurica: Do you have a sense of, ~like,~ is there a certain amount of work you should do if you're gonna do this long-term? Again, getting back to ~kind of ~the question I said before about, ~you know, well, ~doing it once every few months or something. ~I mean, ~[00:17:00] is it something that should have a certain dedicated amount of time, 10%, 20% ~of your, ~of your ~all,~ all of your work life?
Heather Hansen: ~You know, I,~ I don't know that I can speak to a percentage. I think it depends ~on the, ~on the doctor, and I think that sometimes it's a little bit ... ~Like, ~I talk to a lot of experts, and it's feast or famine, ~you know?~ Yeah, that's true. A lot of cases are coming in, and then all of a sudden it feels like things have dried up, and that's sort of the nature ~of, ~of lawyers are busy, especially on the defense side.
They have more volume. And so all of a sudden they'll be like, "Oh, I need you tomorrow," and all of a sudden things are busy again. What I will say, though, is that if you are going to testify at deposition or trial, you need to set aside full days to prepare for that. ~Mm. ~It can't be an hour or two here or there.
One of the things that I work with my attorney colleagues on, because a lot of experts will come to me and say, especially in the course, 'cause the course also has a community aspect to it, and they'll say to me, "My expert, ~the, the,~ the attorney I work with prepared me for, ~like,~ an hour." ~That's not, ~that's not it.
That's not gonna be it. And attorneys are very busy, so you as the expert have to do your own preparation. You [00:18:00] have to know that record better than anyone else in the courtroom, because the lawyer's counting on knowing the record, the facts better than you do, because they don't know the medicine better than you, and so that's where they're gonna get you on cross-examination.
And so you've gotta put the time in, and you have to be willing to put the time in, and you're compensated for that time, which is lovely, ~you know? ~
John Jurica: ~Mm-hmm. ~
Heather Hansen: But you've gotta set that time aside, because if you don't, ~you will, ~you will fail on cross-examination. But also, you're gonna be more nervous when you walk into that deposition, which ~that nerve, ~that nervousness- is felt on camera or in the room, and you don't want people to feel that you aren't confident.
John Jurica: How much time would the expert spend with you prior to, let's say, a deposition or going to trial?
Heather Hansen: When I was defending these cases, ~I would, uh, ~I would ask for the expert as, for as much time as they would give me. Typically, it would be like a weekend day, is what it usually came down to. Oh, really? An entire day.
Yeah,
But then also, the [00:19:00] challenging thing is we as the attorneys, we're sitting through the trial, and we're hearing what goes on every day. And so some of us order daily transcripts and send them to the expert. A lot of experts don't read those. ~Um- ~Oh, boy ... I understand that it's not, ~you know, ~not exactly what you wanna be doing at 10:00 on a Tuesday night, but it helps enormously.
And now there's so much technology, and you can summarize... ~You know, ~there's just so many other ways to get that in. But I also would wanna meet with my expert the night before or ~not,~ not so ideally the morning of, to prepare them. ~But,~ but for the listeners, you can't count on your attorneys to do that.
~You know, ~they have other witnesses that day that might be in their minds more important to be spending that prep time with. And you've got to, ~you know, ~it's ~um... ~I was talking to someone the other day about entrepreneurs and intrapreneurs and this ownership of your career. You need to own your identity as an expert and ideally an authority, and we can talk about the difference there.
But so that means that you can't rely on the attorney to be walking you through all of the things that you [00:20:00] have to review. You have to learn to do it yourself and be motivated to do it yourself. It'll make you a better expert, it will make you in far more demand, and it will lead to less embarrassment when you're being cross-examined
John Jurica: All right, before we get too far, let's talk about the difference between ~author- ~authority or expert.
That could be an interesting distinction.
Heather Hansen: So you're all experts. Everybody listening is an expert. You have training, you have experience. Your curriculum vitae reflects that. And in my, ~um,~ in the course, I talk about this in my work, ~uh,~ there's the belief triangle, and the difference between an expert and authority is ~the authority is the ~expert who is believed, and not all experts are believed.
And sometimes, ~you know, ~in the courtroom, you wanna be the authority on obstetrics if you're the obstetric expert, and you're usually up against another expert. You want to be the one the jury believes.
John Jurica: ~Mm-hmm. ~
Heather Hansen: But this also applies in your practice, or ~um... ~You're opening your own practice, or if you are pursuing a career doing medical writing, you want to be the authority.
You want to be the one who is believed. And in my belief [00:21:00] triangle, I say that they believe in you. That's your expertise, right? It's your curriculum vitae. It's your training. It's your experience. That's what makes you an expert. They also have to believe you. When you make a promise, you keep it. When you set an expectation, you meet it.
And that's where, if you don't know your stuff on cross-examination, they're gonna stop believing you. And then the foundation of that triangle is they have to believe that you can help them, and that's the cognitive empathy, that you appreciate that this jury is saying, "I don't understand this medicine.
It's all confusing. I'm not a doctor." And you say to them, ~"You know, ~this is a case about a bone infection." You're not saying osteomyelitis. You're not using words they don't understand. You're giving them metaphors. You're giving them analogies. ~You're,~ you're speaking to them. You're drawing them a picture.
You're showing them the tools that you use. That is what makes you an authority instead of just one of many experts.
John Jurica: Okay. That's very interesting. Okay, now a practical question. ~W- S- ~[00:22:00] something happened about six years ago that changed everything, the pandemic. But anyway, how much of this now, just in your current experience, is done remotely?
That's my question.
Heather Hansen: Oh, a ton is done remotely. ~I, it, ~it's also changed the courtroom ~and, and, uh- ~Okay ... ~we thought, ~uh, it's just worth mentioning, we thought, and for a while it was the case, ~you know, ~I lived in New York City during the pandemic, and people were banging their pots for the healthcare professionals, and it was...
gave me, ~I g- ~I get goosebumps just thinking about it now. There has been a change in, ~uh, p- ~patients generally trust healthcare professionals less. ~Hmm. ~And that's a problem. It's a problem. ~It, it, ~it's another reason why you should learn these skills, because they know you're experts, but they sometimes see someone, ~uh,~ on TikTok as the authority, and that's a problem.
John Jurica: Yeah.
Heather Hansen: So that's what part of what COVID has changed. Okay. But yes, a lot of times your depositions, and even trial testimony sometimes, is going to be on video, and that's where my TV stuff comes in. There are courses, ~uh,~ [00:23:00] modules in my course about- Ah ... testifying on video because it is a different endeavor, ~you know?~
You are in this little box. ~Um, ~you're not... There's some of the ~intri- ~introception senses, ~you know, ~the vibe you get is a little bit different ~on a, ~on a screen, and so you wanna be able to do your best to overcome that so that you really connect.
John Jurica: This is fascinating because, ~uh, uh, ~listeners, ~you know, ~if I were going to go into this now in the middle of my, ~you know, ~career, I would do two things: learn how to set up the business as a consultant, and then do your course to figure out how to behave, how to think, how to understand ~or, ~or at least get, ~you know, ~people to understand you.
So these are fantastic ideas. ~Um, ~so tell us again, where can we find what you do ~and, ~and reach out if we're interested in learning more about this ~communicat- ~communication and behavior and so forth?
Heather Hansen: So my name's Heather Hansen, and the last name with this, is with an E. So my website is hhansengroup.com.
Also, I'm very active on LinkedIn, John. ~I, uh, ~I talk about this stuff almost every day, and I have a newsletter every Thursday, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Heather [00:24:00] Hansen with an E.
John Jurica: Okay, so the newsletter maybe would have some of these things you could get a taste and- That's where I think you'd start
maybe even learn to start up. ~Yeah. ~Yeah. Yeah. Okay. ~Well, ~we'll definitely put that in the show notes. ~So, well, ~this has been fascinating. ~I mean, ~we covered a lot of ground basically in 30 minutes. ~I mean, ~this is everything I wanted to learn about-
Heather Hansen: Good ...
John Jurica: from you. ~So, um, ~I just, yeah, I do like attorneys in general, unless I'm being sued by somebody.
But- ... anyway, this has
Heather Hansen: been- It helps ... very good. ~One,~ one last thing I'll say on that point. ~Uh, ~it's really important, and this is much harder for defendants, so anyone listening who's ever in this position, ~um,~ it's really worth trying to do, and this is to love your jury. ~If you, ~if you hate even the plaintiff's attorney, ~right,~ if you hate the person questioning you, it comes across in your vibe, and it's off-putting.
People don't like it. And so you really have to love the jury, and you have to think about, "I am here," whether you're an expert or you're a defendant, "I am here in service to this jury." And when you are thinking that, when [00:25:00] your belief is, "I'm a great teacher. I'm here to teach. I'm gonna make a difference. ~I,~ I can teach them something that they don't know," your energy becomes
~I mean, ~some people are delighted to be teachers. Some people get curious. Some people get more resolve. It's a very different energy than anger, frustration, resentment, disappointment, and people feel your energy. There's a lot of research coming out on this. There's a great book called Why We Click, ~uh,~ by Kate Murphy, all about this.
But it's really important. I love that you love lawyers. ~Uh, we lo- ~I love doctors. I have served them for decades, and it has been truly the privilege of a lifetime.
John Jurica: ~Well, ~on that note, I think this is a good point ~to,~ to stop on. So I really wanna thank you for being here. There's a lot, ~uh,~ to go over here. ~Uh, ~it's a lot.
I think listeners, you might have to re-listen through this a couple of times to catch everything. But then, yeah, do check out Heather's, ~uh,~ site and learn more about what she does and what ... If ... Something, ~I mean,~ you may end up loving. So thanks again for being here.
Heather Hansen: Oh, my pleasure, John.
John Jurica: Okay. [00:26:00] Bye now.
I hope you enjoyed, ~uh,~ today's interview. For those physicians with the right temperament, expert witness consulting can be a great side business. It often pays more than comparable clinical work and does not require call or working late into the night, and it enables physicians to understand the medical legal hazards of practice and how to avoid them
so you can go to the show notes at nonclinicalphysicians.com/medical-expert-witness, medical expert witness, for a transcript and a link to Heather's website and other resources related to today's topic. Now she mentioned the website. It's at H Hanson, with an E, Hanson, hhansongroup.com. Before we go, you obviously enjoy this podcast or you wouldn't be listening.
If that's true, then please head to Apple Podcasts and leave me a five-star rating and a comment. It really helps me to reach more [00:27:00] listeners like you. And if you're using a different, ~uh,~ podcast app, then do the same thing there, finally, don't forget that the opinions expressed here today are mine and my guest, and while the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there's no guarantee that using the methods discussed will lead to success in your career, life, or business.
Always consult an attorney, accountant, or career strategist before making any major decision about your career. All right. Bye for now.
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Medical Expert Witness - You Must Know This to Be Successful - 466
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You're listening to Physician Non-Clinical Careers with John Jurica, episode number 466: Medical Expert Witness: You Must Know This to Be Successful. Welcome back, non-clinical nation. Today I'm presenting my interview with Heather Hansen, a seasoned trial attorney and authority on communication and credibility for healthcare professionals.
For more than 20 years, she defended high-stakes medical malpractice cases, and she designed a three-year curriculum for residents providing proven tools in communication, risk reduction, and patient advocacy. Heather has helped prepare thousands of medical providers to testify with credibility and charisma.
Today, she explains why it is absolutely essential that every medical expert witness adopt the attitudes, communication skills, and cognitive empathy to be successful in this role. Okay then, let's meet our [00:01:00] guest: John Jurica: Today's guest is a seasoned attorney and communication expert, and today we're going to pick her brain primarily about two issues that are, I think, important to physicians. The first is surviving a malpractice, ~uh,~ case, a lawsuit, and the second is considering becoming, ~uh,~ an expert witness or how to be a better expert witness.
So Heather Hansen, welcome to the show.
Heather Hansen: John, it's so nice to be here. Thank you for having me.
John Jurica: There's not a better friend that a physician can have ... when they need them, ~um, is, b- ~is, would be an attorney. Malpractice for sure. ~You know, ~the other day I was doing some estate planning with my attorney, and I've had this guy for, ~like,~ 30 years since I moved here, and I said, ~"You know, ~I don't know what I would do without you," ~you know?~
Yeah. My attorney. It's just, ~uh, uh, y- ~we just need attorneys, ~so.~
Heather Hansen: It's so nice you say that because most doctors I talk to are not big fans,
John Jurica: because the other side- ~You know, ~when they think about it, ~you know, ~they think about being on the other end. But, ~uh,~ but yeah, ~I,~ I think we all know that we have to have those colleagues.
So tell [00:02:00] us how do you become ~a, a,~ an attorney and, ~uh,~ tell us just a little bit about what you do, and then we'll get into some questions that I have.
Heather Hansen: Sure. ~I, uh, I... ~Well, I have a psychology degree, which I think is important. That's my undergrad degree, and I think that's important because it's ~kind of ~rare for lawyers, and it was the most important part of my practice.
~Uh, ~I went to law school, and while I was in law school I started working at a firm that only did medical malpractice defense, and I stayed at that firm for the entirety of my career as a trial attorney, which was over 25 years. I defended doctors, hospitals, nurses, all of the healthcare professionals for all of those years, and I loved it.
I was fortunate enough to be, ~um,~ recognized as one of the top 5% of trial lawyers in the nation. I tried a lot of cases in Philadelphia, which is a very challenging venue for doctors and hospitals, ~um,~ and I absolutely loved it. I loved my role as counselor and to help doctors, nurses who had been sued or who had to testify through that experience.
But then I realized that I never wanted to retire and I [00:03:00] wanted to try something new, so I did a couple things. I got certified as a mediator. ~Uh, ~I got certified as a coach. I got certified as a hypnotist, John, because I wanted to study the subconscious mind. ~Um, ~and then I did some television. I was an anchor at the Law and Crime Network for a number of years.
~Hmm. ~And now I've combined all of that to teach people how to be better communicators, and ultimately how to go from expert to authority. And so I do that in a number of different settings, primarily for healthcare providers, healthcare professionals, ~uh,~ but also in the corporate world. I do some coaching and I have some courses on how to be the chosen authority.
John Jurica: ~Well, ~I think this is gonna be perfect for my listeners. ~Uh, ~they know that I've talked to physicians who are expert witnesses, and ~t- ~sometimes talk about how to set that business up as a consultant. But, ~uh,~ we've never addressed the issue of, ~like,~ how to be an excellent expert witness, what that means, the personality, the techniques, the communication styles [00:04:00] and all that.
So this is gonna be good. ~Um, ~so why don't we start with that? I saw an article recently that I think you wrote that was talking about, ~um,~ how, and it basically boiled down to how physicians should assist their defense attorney, what they should know and do. So maybe you can hit some of those high points, 'cause those were quite interesting.
Heather Hansen: I'm happy to. I do wanna say the work that I do with experts is- ~Uh, ~very deliberately for both sides. ~Mm-hmm. ~I think every expert should work to do both sides. I know as experts it's, it can be challenging, but it really makes you more credible. ~You know, ~I don't only serve defense experts on purpose. In fact, it seems that I'm serving more of plaintiffs' experts right now, and there's- ~Hmm~
reasons for ~that,~ that we don't need to get into. But the truth of it is, I want everyone who is an expert to do both sides. And, ~um,~ and it ~sort of ~touches upon some of the things in that article. In that article, I talked about what a lawyer really wants in an expert, and the first thing is they want a partner.
~You know, ~you know the medicine better than we ever could. Now, I will say [00:05:00] that some lawyers like myself who have done this for a long time, we think we are doctors secretly. ~You know, ~I did a lot of orthopedic work and a lot of obstetric work, and I ... There's some part of me that thinks I could do a knee replacement or deliver a baby, but the truth is that no one knows it as well as you do.
So for you to partner with the attorney that you work with, to tell them where the weaknesses in the case are, to tell them what kinds of questions might be appropriate for other experts or for the defendants, ~and,~ and this is not just medical malpractice cases, this can be all kinds of cases. That is really important, because we don't know what you know.
And it's not just the medicine, John. It's also what goes on in a hospital. What does your day look like? Because good lawyers want to paint ~a,~ a movie for the jury, and we aren't, can't do that movie as well as you can, 'cause we haven't been there. And so we really need your help to say, "This is where we sit.
This is where we read those fetal monitoring strips. [00:06:00] This is what I'm doing when I'm not at the patient's bedside." So the first thing is to be a partner The second thing is to be a teacher. ~You know, ~I think a big part of the reason I did so well as a trial attorney is I was very good at translating what a doctor would say, who had the curse of knowledge and knew what trochanteric wires and ~f- uh, ~fetal decelerations were, and translating that to a jury that often didn't have a high school education.
John Jurica: ~Mm-hmm. ~
Heather Hansen: The best experts know how to do that as well. ~You know, ~they really know how to teach, how to lay things out, understanding that they have some students who learn better by storytelling, some students who learn better by metaphor, and really teaching. So that's the second thing. And the third thing is to be a cognitive empath.
Now, there's a difference between cognitive empathy and affective empathy. Affective empathy is feeling what the other person feels. I don't think that's necessary in a lot of jobs, and certainly not here. Cognitive empathy is seeing what they see. And [00:07:00] ultimately, the experts who go through my course know the entire course is really for the jury.
Because ultimately, an expert's job is to serve the jury. They have the most difficult job in the courtroom. They are the heroes in the courtroom, and a good expert can see the case, ~the,~ the medicine through the jury's eyes, and then speak to that perspective. And so those are the three things that I try to teach, and that I believe that every good lawyer wants in their expert.
John Jurica: That's interesting because, not that I sit in on any trials ~you know, ~of my colleagues, but I can ~kind of, ~just knowing them, their personality, and I'm thinking to myself when they're in a lawsuit like, "There's no way this is gonna work," because they are the worst at communicating with their patients, number one.
Yeah. And number two, they don't understand the system as well as they really should, which is a big thing in becoming a physician executive, is understanding that you are in a system. So those points are just awesome.
Heather Hansen: ~I, I, the,~ the system part is so important. To [00:08:00] understand the system you're in and how it works, ~you know, ~sometimes I'll talk about it as a game, ~and,~ and sometimes defendants get upset about that.
~The, the,~ the problem is, whether you call it a system or a game or theater- Yeah ... it's not what you're used to, and so you really need to understand it and know it. The other thing that's worth mentioning, you said about communicators, there's actually research that says that there's no ~cor- ~this is research from New England Journal of Medicine and Harvard.
~Mm-hmm. ~It says that there's no correlation between negligence and lawsuits. The correlation is communication skills. And so I have been teaching communication skills to healthcare professionals for 25 years. ~Um, ~I created a program for residents. ~I mean, ~it's really important that physicians, healthcare professionals who maybe never learned these skills start learning them, especially in the face of AI.
John Jurica: ~You know, ~another time I saw that, I'm basically the POA for my aunt who's in her 90s, and she was hospitalized, ~uh,~ one time, ~well,~ several times, and anyway, when the people came in and communicated with her, talked to her, whatever, ~I mean,~ I would just go, "Whoa, this- ... [00:09:00] that is not getting through at all, and you're spending 30 seconds.
You feel like you're in a hurry. There's no rapport here at all, so ~you're,~ you're... If something happens, you're gonna be the one that's gonna be pointed at."
Heather Hansen: 100%, and something's more likely to happen. ~I mean, ~there's so much we could talk. ~We, ~I could go down that rabbit hole forever. Those skills. And the thing is, for what your listeners do, ~right,~ your listeners are doing all kinds of things ~sort of ~outside of that clinical setting.
Those same communication skills I've taught to Google, LVMH, Berkshire Hathaway. They apply outside of the clinical setting as well, and they're what make you successful.
John Jurica: Yeah, ~I mean, ~I could go on. ~Uh, you know, ~I know people who are just naturally confrontational. I'm assuming you don't wanna get into an argument in the middle of a lawsuit or even a deposition.
Heather Hansen: No, you don't. In fact, one of the things that one of the modules in my course is talking about, it's not just fight and flight, 'cause usually when you're fighting, it's a response to threat. You feel threatened, and you think that the response is ... or you might not even think. Your nervous system might just go to fighting.
And we often think of fight or [00:10:00] flight, but there's also freeze and fawn. And I find in the deposition setting, because they can't flee, there's nowhere that they can go, and they can't freeze, they have to ultimately answer the questions, people resort to fighting or fawning, which is just to give in. "Oh, you're right, I give in."
John Jurica: ~Mm. ~
Heather Hansen: And so we do the work in the course to overcome that tendency so that you can really testify to the utmost of your ability.
John Jurica: That's very useful, I would think. Very useful. All right. ~Well, ~anything else you wanna say about that aspect of it, just being a good witness, ~uh, f- ~other things beyond that?
Heather Hansen: Yeah.
I think, ~you know, ~being a good witness is a, ~there's,~ there's a difference between being a good expert, and I know you've had some of the people on the business side, because most cases, it's true, don't go to trial. However, most cases do involve depositions. ~Mm-hmm. ~And attorneys are recognizing ~th- ~both of those facts, and they're really approaching depositions as if they are trial.
John Jurica: ~Mm. ~
Heather Hansen: And so it's no longer just like discovery, let me ask some questions. It's cross-examination at [00:11:00] deposition. And so if you're not ready for that as an expert, you will suffer for that. Not only will you suffer in the moment when it's so uncomfortable, but also a big part of expert work is word of mouth, and you won't get as much expert work if you're not good at testifying.
And ~so, ~and also if the case goes to ~the jury,~ the jury won't be well-served. You won't be really telling them what they need to know to do their job. And so it's really important to learn how to testify, how to manage cross-examination, how to calm your nervous system so that you can optimize your charisma.
And when I talk about charisma, there's actually research. It's, ~uh,~ Dr. John Antonakis is his name. There are 12 charismatic leadership tactics, is what he calls them-
John Jurica: ~Mm ~...
Heather Hansen: that anyone can study and learn and master, and I teach those in the course as well.
John Jurica: Nice. So ~I mean, ~we're talking now about being an expert witness.
I think, ~uh, you know, ~when I think of it, ~well,~ you're gonna be your own expert witness if you're defending yourself, but now let's ~th- ~talk about this, 'cause you've already kinda got into it. Is [00:12:00] that, is your course designed for being a better expert ~witness,~ witness, and if you're doing that job, then maybe you need to really focus a lot on that communication piece?
Heather Hansen: Yeah, so the course that is currently, ~that,~ that I have currently, the next cohort starts in September. That course is on- it's for expert witnesses of all kinds, not just physicians- ~Mm-hmm ~... and how to be a better expert witness. I have another course, How to Be Chosen, which is all about communication skills more generally.
But ~this has, ~this course has specific modules on cross-examination, examples of cross-examination. ~Um, ~I cite to some YouTube videos from when I was at the Law and Crime Network of Johnny Depp's trial and some of the more famous trials, and pointing out where some cross-examinations are great and not so great.
And so it's really focused on that
John Jurica: Okay, I'm gonna pause right here because sometimes not everyone listens to the very end. So tell me where they would find you and your courses so we have that ~in,~ in, on the recording.
Heather Hansen: I so appreciate that. So my website is, ~uh,~ hhansengroup, [00:13:00] H-H-A-N-S-E-N group.com, and ~there,~ there is a, ~uh,~ a dropdown for courses.
John Jurica: Okay, great, and then we'll go- we'll probably do that again at the end. But I wanna pick your brain about being, ~uh,~ an expert witness and just the whole idea of it as an option, because it's a decision to make for a physician. You can't really just do this like, "Well, I'm gonna do it three or four times a year."
No. If you wanna do it, you should do it right. So let me ask you first, in your opinion, is there a big need, is there a mild, moderate need for new, more physician ex- And what is ~the,~ the status now? Are you overwhelmed with the many, how many there are or not?
Heather Hansen: There's a huge need. Okay. ~And it, ~and ~it's a growing, ~it's a growing, ~um,~ business.
It's funny, John, because I started this very organically. I was doing witness prep for various attorneys on both sides of all kinds of cases, and I kept hearing ... And it was for parties ~or,~ or witnesses, named witnesses, but I kept hearing from both sides of the aisle, the people who really need the help is the experts.
They don't get any of this training, and typically [00:14:00] attorneys don't spend a lot of time training them how to testify. They're focused on the content of the case. And I heard that enough times that I thought ~I,~ I could maybe create something for these people. And then I went onto LinkedIn and started seeing that there's a lot of people who have lists of experts and places that you can go to become a better expert in the business of it, but there's nobody teaching you what ~I,~ I am uniquely qualified to teach, which is this piece of it.
There is a huge demand, and there's a huge demand for good experts. ~You know, ~a lot of times, ~um,~ especially on the defense side, lawyers tend to use the same experts over and over again because they don't know, ~you know, sort of ~the untrusted, untested expert who's maybe never testified. They don't know how well they're going to do.
But it's often those newer experts that have the most credibility with a jury, because they haven't done it 100 times for the same lawyer. ~Hmm. ~And so anybody who's listening that this is intriguing for you, that you're interested in, if [00:15:00] you're, ~you know, ~you're interested in being a better communicator, you're interested in the legal system, you're interested in
Really my big focus is helping juries understand complicated medicine. If you like teaching, then this is definitely an area that can be ~an adj, a, you know, ~an adjunct to your clinical practice.
John Jurica: Okay. Can you tell when you're talking with someone, ~um, you know, ~maybe you're defending them or, ~uh,~ whatever, ~uh,~ maybe you just happen to have a relationship in some way.
~I mean, ~can you tell which ones naturally would make for better, ~uh,~ medical expert witnesses?
Heather Hansen: ~Well, ~it's an interesting thing because, ~you know, ~you think like extroverts, people who are very like big with the body language. That's not necessarily going to be the best expert witnesses. I've reached out to some people who say ~like, ~"Oh no, I'm good.
I've done this a bunch." And I always think ~like, ~oh, if you're not a ... If you have a fixed mindset, you probably get caught on cross-examination. ~You know? ~So I can tell, but it's not what you might think. It's not somebody who's very, ~like,~ good-looking and charismatic the way, and I put that [00:16:00] in quotes, air quotes, the way that you might think.
It's someone who's a lifelong learner, who's curious, who's got that cognitive empathy. I think that ~that ~is the top of the list for me. Are they able to see things from different perspectives? Can they see where ~w- ~they have their opinion about a case, but also see where there might be things that they could be cross-examined on?
Those types of people are going to make the best experts. The charisma I can teach. Those 12 charismatic leadership tactics, they are proven with rigorous research to help you be more charismatic. I can also teach how to be more credible. I can teach how to be more compassionate. But the curiosity and the, ~uh,~ the cognitive empathy, that is really the thing that you need to have ~to,~ to be the best at this overall.
John Jurica: Do you have a sense of, ~like,~ is there a certain amount of work you should do if you're gonna do this long-term? Again, getting back to ~kind of ~the question I said before about, ~you know, well, ~doing it once every few months or something. ~I mean, ~[00:17:00] is it something that should have a certain dedicated amount of time, 10%, 20% ~of your, ~of your ~all,~ all of your work life?
Heather Hansen: ~You know, I,~ I don't know that I can speak to a percentage. I think it depends ~on the, ~on the doctor, and I think that sometimes it's a little bit ... ~Like, ~I talk to a lot of experts, and it's feast or famine, ~you know?~ Yeah, that's true. A lot of cases are coming in, and then all of a sudden it feels like things have dried up, and that's sort of the nature ~of, ~of lawyers are busy, especially on the defense side.
They have more volume. And so all of a sudden they'll be like, "Oh, I need you tomorrow," and all of a sudden things are busy again. What I will say, though, is that if you are going to testify at deposition or trial, you need to set aside full days to prepare for that. ~Mm. ~It can't be an hour or two here or there.
One of the things that I work with my attorney colleagues on, because a lot of experts will come to me and say, especially in the course, 'cause the course also has a community aspect to it, and they'll say to me, "My expert, ~the, the,~ the attorney I work with prepared me for, ~like,~ an hour." ~That's not, ~that's not it.
That's not gonna be it. And attorneys are very busy, so you as the expert have to do your own preparation. You [00:18:00] have to know that record better than anyone else in the courtroom, because the lawyer's counting on knowing the record, the facts better than you do, because they don't know the medicine better than you, and so that's where they're gonna get you on cross-examination.
And so you've gotta put the time in, and you have to be willing to put the time in, and you're compensated for that time, which is lovely, ~you know? ~
John Jurica: ~Mm-hmm. ~
Heather Hansen: But you've gotta set that time aside, because if you don't, ~you will, ~you will fail on cross-examination. But also, you're gonna be more nervous when you walk into that deposition, which ~that nerve, ~that nervousness- is felt on camera or in the room, and you don't want people to feel that you aren't confident.
John Jurica: How much time would the expert spend with you prior to, let's say, a deposition or going to trial?
Heather Hansen: When I was defending these cases, ~I would, uh, ~I would ask for the expert as, for as much time as they would give me. Typically, it would be like a weekend day, is what it usually came down to. Oh, really? An entire day.
Yeah,
But then also, the [00:19:00] challenging thing is we as the attorneys, we're sitting through the trial, and we're hearing what goes on every day. And so some of us order daily transcripts and send them to the expert. A lot of experts don't read those. ~Um- ~Oh, boy ... I understand that it's not, ~you know, ~not exactly what you wanna be doing at 10:00 on a Tuesday night, but it helps enormously.
And now there's so much technology, and you can summarize... ~You know, ~there's just so many other ways to get that in. But I also would wanna meet with my expert the night before or ~not,~ not so ideally the morning of, to prepare them. ~But,~ but for the listeners, you can't count on your attorneys to do that.
~You know, ~they have other witnesses that day that might be in their minds more important to be spending that prep time with. And you've got to, ~you know, ~it's ~um... ~I was talking to someone the other day about entrepreneurs and intrapreneurs and this ownership of your career. You need to own your identity as an expert and ideally an authority, and we can talk about the difference there.
But so that means that you can't rely on the attorney to be walking you through all of the things that you [00:20:00] have to review. You have to learn to do it yourself and be motivated to do it yourself. It'll make you a better expert, it will make you in far more demand, and it will lead to less embarrassment when you're being cross-examined
John Jurica: All right, before we get too far, let's talk about the difference between ~author- ~authority or expert.
That could be an interesting distinction.
Heather Hansen: So you're all experts. Everybody listening is an expert. You have training, you have experience. Your curriculum vitae reflects that. And in my, ~um,~ in the course, I talk about this in my work, ~uh,~ there's the belief triangle, and the difference between an expert and authority is ~the authority is the ~expert who is believed, and not all experts are believed.
And sometimes, ~you know, ~in the courtroom, you wanna be the authority on obstetrics if you're the obstetric expert, and you're usually up against another expert. You want to be the one the jury believes.
John Jurica: ~Mm-hmm. ~
Heather Hansen: But this also applies in your practice, or ~um... ~You're opening your own practice, or if you are pursuing a career doing medical writing, you want to be the authority.
You want to be the one who is believed. And in my belief [00:21:00] triangle, I say that they believe in you. That's your expertise, right? It's your curriculum vitae. It's your training. It's your experience. That's what makes you an expert. They also have to believe you. When you make a promise, you keep it. When you set an expectation, you meet it.
And that's where, if you don't know your stuff on cross-examination, they're gonna stop believing you. And then the foundation of that triangle is they have to believe that you can help them, and that's the cognitive empathy, that you appreciate that this jury is saying, "I don't understand this medicine.
It's all confusing. I'm not a doctor." And you say to them, ~"You know, ~this is a case about a bone infection." You're not saying osteomyelitis. You're not using words they don't understand. You're giving them metaphors. You're giving them analogies. ~You're,~ you're speaking to them. You're drawing them a picture.
You're showing them the tools that you use. That is what makes you an authority instead of just one of many experts.
John Jurica: Okay. That's very interesting. Okay, now a practical question. ~W- S- ~[00:22:00] something happened about six years ago that changed everything, the pandemic. But anyway, how much of this now, just in your current experience, is done remotely?
That's my question.
Heather Hansen: Oh, a ton is done remotely. ~I, it, ~it's also changed the courtroom ~and, and, uh- ~Okay ... ~we thought, ~uh, it's just worth mentioning, we thought, and for a while it was the case, ~you know, ~I lived in New York City during the pandemic, and people were banging their pots for the healthcare professionals, and it was...
gave me, ~I g- ~I get goosebumps just thinking about it now. There has been a change in, ~uh, p- ~patients generally trust healthcare professionals less. ~Hmm. ~And that's a problem. It's a problem. ~It, it, ~it's another reason why you should learn these skills, because they know you're experts, but they sometimes see someone, ~uh,~ on TikTok as the authority, and that's a problem.
John Jurica: Yeah.
Heather Hansen: So that's what part of what COVID has changed. Okay. But yes, a lot of times your depositions, and even trial testimony sometimes, is going to be on video, and that's where my TV stuff comes in. There are courses, ~uh,~ [00:23:00] modules in my course about- Ah ... testifying on video because it is a different endeavor, ~you know?~
You are in this little box. ~Um, ~you're not... There's some of the ~intri- ~introception senses, ~you know, ~the vibe you get is a little bit different ~on a, ~on a screen, and so you wanna be able to do your best to overcome that so that you really connect.
John Jurica: This is fascinating because, ~uh, uh, ~listeners, ~you know, ~if I were going to go into this now in the middle of my, ~you know, ~career, I would do two things: learn how to set up the business as a consultant, and then do your course to figure out how to behave, how to think, how to understand ~or, ~or at least get, ~you know, ~people to understand you.
So these are fantastic ideas. ~Um, ~so tell us again, where can we find what you do ~and, ~and reach out if we're interested in learning more about this ~communicat- ~communication and behavior and so forth?
Heather Hansen: So my name's Heather Hansen, and the last name with this, is with an E. So my website is hhansengroup.com.
Also, I'm very active on LinkedIn, John. ~I, uh, ~I talk about this stuff almost every day, and I have a newsletter every Thursday, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Heather [00:24:00] Hansen with an E.
John Jurica: Okay, so the newsletter maybe would have some of these things you could get a taste and- That's where I think you'd start
maybe even learn to start up. ~Yeah. ~Yeah. Yeah. Okay. ~Well, ~we'll definitely put that in the show notes. ~So, well, ~this has been fascinating. ~I mean, ~we covered a lot of ground basically in 30 minutes. ~I mean, ~this is everything I wanted to learn about-
Heather Hansen: Good ...
John Jurica: from you. ~So, um, ~I just, yeah, I do like attorneys in general, unless I'm being sued by somebody.
But- ... anyway, this has
Heather Hansen: been- It helps ... very good. ~One,~ one last thing I'll say on that point. ~Uh, ~it's really important, and this is much harder for defendants, so anyone listening who's ever in this position, ~um,~ it's really worth trying to do, and this is to love your jury. ~If you, ~if you hate even the plaintiff's attorney, ~right,~ if you hate the person questioning you, it comes across in your vibe, and it's off-putting.
People don't like it. And so you really have to love the jury, and you have to think about, "I am here," whether you're an expert or you're a defendant, "I am here in service to this jury." And when you are thinking that, when [00:25:00] your belief is, "I'm a great teacher. I'm here to teach. I'm gonna make a difference. ~I,~ I can teach them something that they don't know," your energy becomes
~I mean, ~some people are delighted to be teachers. Some people get curious. Some people get more resolve. It's a very different energy than anger, frustration, resentment, disappointment, and people feel your energy. There's a lot of research coming out on this. There's a great book called Why We Click, ~uh,~ by Kate Murphy, all about this.
But it's really important. I love that you love lawyers. ~Uh, we lo- ~I love doctors. I have served them for decades, and it has been truly the privilege of a lifetime.
John Jurica: ~Well, ~on that note, I think this is a good point ~to,~ to stop on. So I really wanna thank you for being here. There's a lot, ~uh,~ to go over here. ~Uh, ~it's a lot.
I think listeners, you might have to re-listen through this a couple of times to catch everything. But then, yeah, do check out Heather's, ~uh,~ site and learn more about what she does and what ... If ... Something, ~I mean,~ you may end up loving. So thanks again for being here.
Heather Hansen: Oh, my pleasure, John.
John Jurica: Okay. [00:26:00] Bye now.
I hope you enjoyed, ~uh,~ today's interview. For those physicians with the right temperament, expert witness consulting can be a great side business. It often pays more than comparable clinical work and does not require call or working late into the night, and it enables physicians to understand the medical legal hazards of practice and how to avoid them
so you can go to the show notes at nonclinicalphysicians.com/medical-expert-witness, medical expert witness, for a transcript and a link to Heather's website and other resources related to today's topic. Now she mentioned the website. It's at H Hanson, with an E, Hanson, hhansongroup.com. Before we go, you obviously enjoy this podcast or you wouldn't be listening.
If that's true, then please head to Apple Podcasts and leave me a five-star rating and a comment. It really helps me to reach more [00:27:00] listeners like you. And if you're using a different, ~uh,~ podcast app, then do the same thing there, finally, don't forget that the opinions expressed here today are mine and my guest, and while the information provided on the podcast is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, there's no guarantee that using the methods discussed will lead to success in your career, life, or business.
Always consult an attorney, accountant, or career strategist before making any major decision about your career. All right. Bye for now.
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