Interview with Dr. Michelle Bailey – 388
In this podcast episode, John's guest shares how to make meaningful changes in your life and career. Dr. Michelle Bailey is an accomplished academic pediatrician, medical director, and physician coach who first visited the podcast in Episode 124.
Helping physicians navigate career transitions since 2012, Dr. Bailey combines personal experience with expertise to guide others through transformative career decisions. Her approach emphasizes the importance of thoughtful reflection and strategic planning in making successful life changes.
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Make Meaningful Changes Using the Power of Strategic Pausing
Drawing from years of coaching experience, Dr. Bailey introduces her concept of the power of the pause – a transformative approach to career decision-making. She explains how taking intentional time to reflect and assess can lead to more fulfilling career choices, rather than making decisions from a place of burnout or fear. This methodical approach has helped numerous physicians discover paths they hadn't previously considered.
Her framework helps doctors identify their core values and non-negotiables, essential elements often overlooked in career transitions. The process involves creating space for deep reflection about both professional and personal priorities. Dr. Bailey emphasizes how this pause can be the crucial difference between making a reactive career move and finding a truly fulfilling path.
Transforming Medical Skills into New Opportunities
Michelle shares eye-opening perspectives on how physicians can leverage their existing skills in new ways. Her insights challenge common misconceptions about career transitions, revealing how medical training provides valuable transferable skills that can open doors to diverse opportunities. She offers practical guidance on identifying and articulating these skills effectively to make meaningful changes in your career.
Her approach helps physicians recognize and articulate their unique value proposition in nonclinical roles. She discusses how medical training develops numerous transferable skills that are highly valued across industries.
Summary
Physicians interested in exploring career transitions or seeking clarity in their professional journey can connect with Dr. Michelle Bailey through her website at DrMichelleBailey.com or schedule a complimentary career consultation at callwithmichelle.com. Her approach focuses on helping physicians make thoughtful, strategic career decisions through structured reflection and practical action steps.
Links for today's episode:
- Dr. Michelle Bailey's Website
- Schedule a Consultation with Dr. Michelle Bailey
- Dr. Michelle Bailey's LinkedIn
- Dr. Michelle Bailey's Facebook
- Dr. Michelle Bailey's Instagram
- Should I Work for a Contract Research Organization? – 124
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- More On How to Hire a Suitable Physician Career Coach – 216
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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 388
How To Make Meaningful Changes In Your Life Immediately
- Interview with Dr. Michelle Bailey
John: I'm really happy to welcome back a guest from about five years ago. Back then, we were talking to her about her work as a senior medical director and some of the coaching she was doing. And I've been looking to get her back for a while, she's back to talk to us today and we're going to discuss mostly what she's learned and what she can teach us about career transition and physicians and so forth. Dr. Michelle Bailey, welcome back to the PNC podcast.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Hi, John, thank you so much for inviting me back. I'm so happy to be here.
John: Yeah, I've been following you over those last five or six years just to kind of see what you're doing. As far as I know, you still exist. You still have a LinkedIn profile. And I know that you're still doing coaching, physician coaching, it's always good to pick the brain of someone who has interacted with and helped physicians navigate their career, their life, whatever. That's why I really wanted to get you back here. So welcome back.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I've learned quite a few lessons over the last five years since we've had a chance to talk.
John: Yeah, and I think you've been coaching since around 2012. So you've been doing that for a while.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, I actually started coaching around self-care and balance between work and home-life before it was a thing. And it was just what I was seeing in my work at Duke with students and residents and fellows and even some faculty. And that sort of blossomed into more coaching work around career satisfaction and career transitions, particularly after I made my own transition back in 2016.
John: Yes, yes, that was a big change. To go from full-time, I think you were doing academic pediatrics at the time.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: That's right.
John: Yeah, and then you flipped into the other thing you're doing, which is the nonclinical work. Tell us just about that for a minute.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Sure, yeah, I was an academic pediatrician. I was seeing patients full-time in addition to teaching responsibilities at the medical school. And I decided to make the leap and move into a nonclinical career. I went to work as a medical director for a global contract research organization. And for those listeners who haven't heard of that, essentially the company I work for is hired by pharmaceutical or biotech companies to execute the running of their clinical trials. And so I wasn't sure if I was qualified to do that in the beginning, but they were very confident that I was and made an offer for me to join the team.
And essentially I get to leverage my medical education and experience and bring all of that into the world of pediatric clinical trials. And it's just been a wonderful career path for me, surprising in many ways. I still get to learn, which I love, and I still get to advocate for kids and to be a part of helping to bring life-saving and life-changing medicines to them.
John: Okay, we're going to talk mostly about what you've been doing with the coaching, things that maybe are new or just aha moments maybe that you've even had over these, let's say last five years. However, you did mention that issue about going to, I guess some people call it now biopharma, they use this kind of all-encompassing name, but the physicians often just feel like, well, how can I do that? I'm not a researcher. I haven't spent any time writing articles on things like that. But explain what you were kind of alluding to in terms of the fact that you were qualified for what you did then and what you're doing now.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, I can certainly say my journey and my experience mirrors a lot of the physicians that I have conversations with and ultimately end up coaching in that in our training and education, we don't really learn about options outside of direct patient care or bench research. And so that's really all I knew. And once I decided that I wanted to do something different, I had no idea what that would be.
And back during that time, there weren't a lot of podcasts like yours or conferences and other things around to kind of help educate you. But what I've learned over my eight plus years of being in this new industry is that we have transferable skills. So these things that we learn and skills we acquire as physicians, like leadership, for example, we have these skills that we bring with us to other industries and we can apply them.
For example, in my case, some of the skills that I get to use are just my general knowledge about children and the fact that they don't come to clinic visits alone, they come with their parents or they come with siblings. And so I'm looking at a study protocol for a research trial. And I see that the assessments for that study are going to keep that family on site in the clinic for like six to eight hours.
In my mind, that's going to be a difficult study to enroll for because as a parent, it means I've got to take time off from work. I've got to get my kids from school. I've got to arrange maybe childcare for the other kids or bring them with me. We got to figure out food while we're there for that period of time. So those are the insights that I can bring to a team that has never worked in a clinic and had these kinds of interactions with a family. And so it's things that are seemingly simple to us.
And I think we don't appreciate how much we know because it's just our world. It's what we do. But also just sort of the leadership that we acquire as a physician, the fact that we are really good at doing hard things, that's a part of our training. And also we're really good at figuring things out. So just because you've never seen something before, you don't know how to do something, you are motivated to figure out a potential solution. So that's another skill that we bring with us into these different roles.
And so I quickly understood how I could add value and contribute in meaningful ways to the team. And that really helped boost my confidence. And so what I talk to physicians about now is understanding their own set of transferable skills.
What are the strengths that they have? What skillset do they already have? And what gaps might they need to fill? But also just really paying attention to what it is they enjoy doing. Because usually there are things that we're really good at that don't feel like work because it comes naturally to us. And those are things that other people struggle with.
For me, what was really helpful was what I call the power of the pause is just stopping long enough to reflect on how I felt about my career at that point in time, what it was I wanted moving forward and getting really clear on that. And that included what I didn't want. So I had to get clear on that as well and then ask myself why I wanted that because that was going to be the motivation to help me push through the difficult moments as I was looking for a new career path. And I helped my clients with that power of the pause as well.
John: Nice. Well, I got to write that down, the power of the pause. I'm going to tell my listeners a secret right now. Actually, I've never discussed how I prepare for an interview before, but I want to discuss it now with you here because I'm going to ask you probably at least a few questions that the audience will be like, well, where did those come from? And so I'm just explaining to my listeners that when I'm preparing, some of my cohorts that do podcasts just wing it. They just know what they want to talk about when the guest comes on and they just do it. I'm so, I don't know what you'd call it, maybe insecure or is it just compulsive, obsessive compulsive?
I have to do a little research and so I'm looking at Michelle's website and I'm looking at Michelle's LinkedIn profile and so then I see these things out there. And so that's why I'm going to ask, for example, the next question. I think you may have already answered this question, but this is, I just want to let the audience know why I'm maybe being a little redundant, but you talk about getting clear on what's working, what's not working and what's missing from our lives.
That's kind of something a coach does, I think it helps their clients. And you're talking about the pause, is that when you're doing that getting some clarity or am I looking at something different there?
Dr. Michelle Bailey: No, I think you're absolutely right, John. So taking the time to pause is what allows you to have the space created to get clear. For many of the physicians that are looking to make a transition from clinical practice, they often are feeling very burned out, they're feeling low energy, exhausted.
And so from that space, if you're really just looking for how do I get out, your search is going to be driven largely by fear. It's like this sort of desperate energy of, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I got to get out of here, I got to do something. And instead, what I'm encouraging is to take that time to pause and give yourself a little breathing space to say, okay, I know I don't want to continue to do this indefinitely, it doesn't feel sustainable for me.
Given that, if I knew everything could work out well, what is it that I would want to do? And why do I want to do that? And taking the time to get clear on those things instead moves you into this energy of sort of positive momentum to move forward. It's a focus on where you're going rather than what you're running away from, you know? And I've seen how that makes a difference because I've had some physicians who've come to me after they've made a transition, but they didn't really think it through. They saw someone that they knew made this move into a different industry.
They thought, "Oh, they look happy, that's what I'm going to pursue." And so they do and they get an offer and they're thrilled about that. Everybody just wants to get their foot in the door, but only to find that this isn't a good fit for them based on the season of life and career that they're in and what it is they want.
For me I'm not afraid to tell my age, but I'm at a different stage of life. I'm 57. And so I have grandkids. I want to be able to travel with my wife. I want to spend time with my grandkids. I want to pick them up from school or go on field trips with them.
It was important to me that whatever I did next allowed me location independent work and also allowed me to be able to have a flexible schedule so that if I needed to go and pick up my grandson from school, I could do that without feeling stressed out about it. So you have to just get clear on what your priorities are and what your values are.
When I work with clients, I have an exercise I do with them to help them get in touch with what their core values are now. Because the person that we are when we embark upon this journey in medicine is not necessarily the same person we are now, depending on how much time has passed. Like most of us are young adults when we're starting out on this medical journey and life happens along the way. And so being clear on where you are and what's important to you and where you want to go will really help direct your path towards something that's going to be a better fit for you.
John: Boy, how long would you say the average client that you've spoken with or even people you've even just mentored, how long does it take to figure that out do you think normally? Because many of us have this sense that we don't know what our passion is. We don't know what our purpose is. We don't really know what we like and we don't like. We just barrel forward and do our job because that's what we'd spent 15 years of our lives learning and it's hard for us to stop and even come up with answers to those questions.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, it varies quite a bit. I will say the physicians that have the fastest results in terms of finding that next step career in the nonclinical world are the ones that already come with a degree of clarity. They have made the decision. There's no ambivalence as to whether or not I want to do this. It's like, I've decided I'm going to leave clinical practice. I want to pursue a nonclinical career.
I don't know exactly what, but this is what I'm thinking of because I like X, Y, and Z. And so that the more clarity you have, the more accelerated I would say your journey is in terms of the transition. But for some people who haven't really given it much thought, the questions that we go through are very deep and reflective questions and it can take a good six weeks for them to really figure out, okay, this is what I want and this is why I want it.
But then there's another step of giving yourself permission to actually go after what you want. There's a lot of guilt and other uncomfortable emotions that can arise in thinking about making the transition. I feel like I'm going to be abandoning my patients. I don't want to abandon my partners. I don't want to leave them in a lurch. My family won't understand.
I may have to change my lifestyle if the salary that I get for nonclinical position is less than what I've had as a clinician. So there are all of these variables that come into play and I do think it's really helpful when you have a coach that can help hold space for you to work through some of that because you don't want that to be the barrier that keeps you stuck for yet another year and you're miserable. Life is just too short and too precious for that.
John: Well, if I was going to engage a coach, that would kind of be the thing. That's why I would do the engagements. Like, okay, I don't like what I'm doing. I'm not satisfied. It doesn't mean I'm burned out or whatever. I'm just it's just no longer what I want to pursue. And I really can't figure out, I would engage a coach to do that. So that makes perfect sense. that's kind of a core addition to the process that you have. So can you give us like just a glimpse as like what you said, you had either like some method or some tool or something to help people tease that out. Just an example would be very helpful.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, sure. So one of the things that we do is to explore like what's important to you now so that you can figure out what are some of the non-negotiables that you will need in this next career. So for example, like I have one client that I'm working with now, and it's important to her to be near an aging parent so that she can be a support to them.
And so she is really looking for an opportunity that allows her to stay in her geographic region for work. She knows through this exploration that it's important to her to have social connections around work. So as much as some people think, oh, I would love to just work from home full time, it is not for everyone.
And so if you need that social stimulation and connection on a regular basis through work, then you may need to have an opportunity that is office-based or at least hybrid. Where certain number of days you're going into the office and then a certain number of days you're working from home. So these are the kinds of questions that I will ask a client so that they can get clear on what's really important to them. And that sort of builds the scaffolding so that they know this is the container. Like I have to have this and I have to have that. Those are my non-negotiables.
Now with that in mind, what kinds of opportunities would fit into that? Because often we're doing the opposite. We're looking for an opportunity and then seeing how we can fit into that opportunity instead of the other way around.
John: I'm such a practical person at times. I have to ask this question. So what I would do, it could be a little overwhelming. There's lots of things that I definitely do want and a lot of things that are like absolutely not. And so they develop maybe even a checklist so that when as they're looking at job descriptions or they're talking to recruiters or whatever, it's like, okay, I got to make sure that we got these five are in and these five are definitely out of this job.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yes, absolutely. And it kind of helps you create a matrix that you can work from. And even for you, like if you were thinking about doing something different, for example, I would start by saying, well, John, just write down like top of mind, the first 10 things that would be important to you in your next career, in this next opportunity.
And sometimes when people are asked that question, they're not able to write down 10 immediately. So that's not an uncommon thing. But what I would do is continue to ask yourself, it's like, okay, if I'm not so clear yet on what it is that I do want, let me start with what I don't want and write that out.
Let me get clear on that. For me, as an example, I was really clear that I did not want a job with a long commute because that's what I had in my clinical work. My commute was easily 40 to 45 minutes, an hour plus if the weather was inclement.
And so, it's like, well, I need a commute that's 15 minutes or less because I want to be able to maybe even go home for lunch. So starting there can help you gain that clarity that you need for what it is you do want. And thinking about like what would an ideal schedule look like for you? What hours would you be working? Would you be sitting at a desk or would you be doing something that's more interactive with people on a day-to-day basis? So these are the kinds of questions that you can ask. And I've developed some tools that I use with my clients to kind of help guide them through that process.
John: Excellent. I think that gives everyone a pretty good idea how that goes. And I go back probably about the time when I was speaking with you the first time on the podcast, like just have an episode with a coach about why coaching is so beneficial.
And because there's a lot of resistance to coaching. I see it all the time. And people call me or they ask for advice and it's like maybe you just need to sit down with a coach for a few weeks because I don't do coaching. And I'm not going to answer your question in a short email. But they're like very reluctant at times. But so that's a good refresher and a good look into coaching.
Now, I had on my list too, I wanted to ask you about what new revelations have you had about coaching in the last five years? Is there something new about coaching or just have things evolved in terms of where we are as physicians in the whole milieu of the healthcare system itself and different forms of employment?
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah. Let me start off by saying, I believe in the power of coaching. And so I have my own coach. I'm a coach, but still I have my thoughts and beliefs that at times can be limited. And so one of the things that's valuable in working with a coach is having someone to help you see different perspectives. I will say that I have noticed that there seems to be an increase in thinking about working with a coach. Like you, I've been in a lot of Facebook groups and other social media groups where I saw a fair amount of bashing of coaches.
John: Oh, really?
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah. And I think there's some that really feel like there are people who are out there who are presenting themselves as coaches that don't have any training, that don't have any background and are really just looking to take advantage of physician colleagues. So I'm not a proponent of that. However, there are a lot of us physicians who have gone on to do additional training in coaching.
And there are different types of coaching as you probably know, John there's executive coaching for people who are trying to get into executive level positions who want to do hospital administration or maybe go into the C-suite for an organization. There are life coaches, there are career coaches. So there are different sort of specialty areas, if you will.
And for me, career coaching was the likely choice because people started reaching out to me to ask me to help them with their own transition because I was speaking so visibly about my own journey and how I didn't have as much support as I would have liked back then and thought something was wrong with me because I wasn't happy doing what I was doing. And so I do see that more physicians are reaching out for some support, that many of the challenges that I hear when I have conversations with physicians about their career, is they're feeling a bit stuck and unmotivated. They don't know what they would do next if they were to transition.
If they decide that they do want to transition, they don't know where to start or how to sort of get their foot in the door. And it's feeling not as easy to make the transition for a lot of physicians as it was previously. And I can say that certainly there are changes within the industry that are reflective of the economic state of the region that you're living in that can make a difference.
But even at times where we've seen a downturn, where there were fewer jobs available, there's always someone somewhere that is hiring. And so one of the most powerful things that you can do to enhance your own career and raise the likelihood that you can accelerate your transition is networking. And I get a lot of eye rolls when I say that. It's kind of like role plays when we were in medicine and we were learning a new skill and they were like, okay, we're going to do a role play. And everyone's eyes would kind of glaze over because no one enjoys doing it. But it is an activity that helps you develop a skill and get better at it.
And networking is one of those things. And the way I sort of talk about it is if you're looking for an opportunity for yourself, you are one set of eyes, one set of ears. But if you are telling other people what it is you would like to do, then you get more sets of eyes, more sets of ears.
It's kind of like boots on the ground that are going out like little sentinels that are looking on your behalf. So when something comes to their attention, they can think about you and reach out to you. So you want to stay top of mind for people. And that's one of the most important reasons for networking. Plus you learn about other things that people are doing that you otherwise might not be aware of.
John: Yeah, I just have a comment on a couple of things you said just to actually emphasize those and support what you're saying. Number one, most physicians would probably be shocked to know how many hospital CEOs still get coaching. There's so many people in business that get coaching.
They just see it as part of the job because they want to be cutting edge. They want to think strategically and they get a lot from the coaching. So that's one thing I, again, that kind of just because of this resistance that physicians have like, well, I've gone to all this school.
Well, that's not the point. And then the networking that's, there's so many it's not like you're going to a meeting and then having some drinks after the meeting and a conference room and you're networking. Nobody likes that really, at least physicians don't have time for that.
But to connect with people, whether it's through LinkedIn or through word of mouth or whatever, like you said, it just magnifies what you're doing. It just makes it so much more of a reach and exposure. So, yeah, it seems like that's becoming more important since we last spoke.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Absolutely, yeah. I think, as you mentioned, CEOs and other executives, this is just a part of the job. And often they are provided with a coach at the expense of it's charged to the company. And coaches are really valuable in helping you with a strategic plan so that there's some organization to what you're doing. And you're not just like throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. Because that burns a lot of time and a coach can really help you be more efficient and more organized because you're thinking in a more strategic manner.
John: That is so true. And I love hearing that. Okay, we're going to run out of time pretty soon, actually. I had this long list of questions, but let's try and kind of focus here. What else have you got to tell us that really can be useful? I know we were talking before we got on about making changes and I was thinking, well, that could be useful not only in career transition. I don't know if we've touched on that yet, just how to implement those changes in your life or other career tips or transition tips, anything like that that you think would be helpful.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, I think there are a few skills that really lend themselves to making change. One is decision-making. I didn't give this too much thought before I started working with a coach, but then I realized I have an approach to how I make decisions.
And I'm one where I need to have all the information. I want to see it all laid out so that I can weigh all my options before I make the decision. And there's this saying, how you do anything is how you do everything. And I noticed that that wasn't just showing up with big, important decisions. It was little decisions, like what entree I wanted to eat when I went out to a restaurant at dinner.
And my wife is like, pick one. I'm asking all these questions of the server to try and weigh my options. Which am I going to enjoy more? So decision making is a skill and I think it's one that can really lend itself nicely to helping you when you want to make change in your life. I think another skill like that is, well, I call it a skill, but self-confidence.
So belief in yourself. I said earlier during our conversation that physicians can do hard things. It's just part of our training and we're really good at figuring things out. I often remind the physicians that I'm coaching that they can do hard things and that they can figure it out. And it's okay that you haven't done this exact thing before. You have what it takes to be able to do it. And so your own self-confidence plays a big factor in how successful you may or may not be in doing things in your life when you're ready to make a change.
John: Okay. No, that is also, and people, I think if they recognize that maybe they don't feel that they're portraying themselves as not confident, but if they're doing it and not realizing it, then maybe they just need to step back and say, okay, let's stop and think about what I'm doing and saying, and then let's see if I can just portray myself as I really am, which is a confident powerful person that definitely can handle this new job.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Right. And I'll tell you one way you can know if you're lacking in confidence is the action that you're taking or rather the action you're not taking. So one of the things that I do see is for a lot of physicians, they are doing what they feel is taking steps to transition, but it's honestly a lot of busy work.
That's not really putting themselves out there because they're either afraid of rejection or they're having that self-confidence issue. And so when I ask very concrete questions, like how many applications have you submitted in the last week? And they say, well, none. So being able to really look at some concrete metrics for yourself and focusing on what you have control over. So you don't have control over whether or not someone makes you an offer for a job, but you do have control over how many people you connect with to network, how many applications you're putting out there how many jobs you're exploring, like maybe reaching out to recruiters.
These are things that you have some control over and just take a look at whether or not the actions you're taking are things that will make a meaningful difference in moving your career search forward, or if it's just accumulating more information and more data, which isn't necessarily going to help you in that next step.
John: So true. Again, it's logical. But the thing is, too, if you apply to a lot of places, you're eventually going to get feedback. And then you're going to say, oh, I didn't know that was stupid of me to do that way. And you're telling me because I've now made a contact with this person, a recruiter or the HR department. And there's a lot of information you can get from that. And it doesn't happen unless you start to apply.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Right. And the caveat is applying strategically.
John: Yeah.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Right. Just applying for any job and using the exact same resume, the exact same cover letter isn't going to cut it. People are looking at why should we hire you over someone else? And so the purpose of your resume and your LinkedIn profile is to help them understand why they should hire you. Why would you be a good choice as opposed to someone else? And most of the folks within HR who are looking at the initial application to invite folks for a screening interview don't have a medical background.
They don't necessarily understand how you can translate the skills you already have into this new role. And as a result, a lot of physicians, when they look at the job description, feel like they're not qualified for these roles that they're interested in. And so that's where transferable skills come in. And I'm developing a resource that folks can use to help them identify those transferable skills and what positions would be really good, a good fit for those skills.
John: Okay. That's a good segue because this is going to be a chance to learn more about your website and contacting you. But I want to say one other thing, and I've probably forgotten it now. But anyway, I think it's, I had a guest once tell me that she, before she found her first nonclinical job, she literally had sent in a thousand resumes, but she was going to websites and putting it in. She had no contact with any company person. She never called anybody, never talked to anybody.
And so, it was just a black hole. These things were going into. And like you said, the other thing I remember was that the job descriptions are like what they would want in the perfect candidate. Here's everything we want. They never get everything they want. So don't think that that rules you out.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: And to that point, I would say there's a lot of research that's been done on gender bias. And men, when they look at a job description, if they have like a third of the qualifications will apply. Whereas women, if they don't check off all the boxes, are less likely to apply. And that may sound like a generalization, but there's a lot of literature that's been done to kind of back that up. And so I would encourage listeners to not count themselves out. And if you check all the boxes, you're probably overqualified for the position and it's not going to necessarily be a good fit for you. So look for something where you have a lot of the qualifications and you can move into that role and still have room to grow.
John: That sounds good. That's good advice. Okay. So how do we find you and tell us about your website and yeah. And maybe even if you want to do a little pitch to say, what is the kind of client you're looking for that would be ideal for you? We could give you that opportunity too. Just tell us about your website and stuff.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Sure. Folks can find my website at drmichellebailey.com. You can also sign up for a complimentary career consultation with me. I love having conversations with physicians and hearing about where you are and what you're thinking about if you're considering a transition. And I'm happy to give you just some guidance on what might help. And for that, you can sign up at callwithmichelle.com. And then you can also find me on social media.
I'm on Facebook at Michelle Bailey, and I'm on Instagram at the Dr. Michelle Bailey. And I would say in terms of an ideal client that I enjoy working with and that I think I can help the most, it's someone who has been thinking about leaving medicine for a while, but they're still ambivalent. They're not sure whether or not that's the best course of action for them. And they have no idea where to start or how to figure that out. I think having just that complimentary consultation that I spoke of earlier is an opportunity to create that space where you can pause and reflect on where you are and where you'd like to be.
And I've had conversations with a lot of physicians who haven't gone on to be clients, but had that one consultation and came back to me and said that was so helpful because I got much clearer on what it was I wanted, or I learned that I'm actually not ready to leave clinical practice. I just need a different position within clinical medicine. And so I would encourage you to just think about that. But I'm happy to sit and chat with anyone who wants to have a conversation. I enjoy helping.
John: Very good. Now, I would definitely encourage people if they've been in this mode for the last six or 12 months, thinking about it and maybe even ruminating about it and just can't get it out of their mind, but I have not taken any action, you definitely want to reach out to Michelle and see if you can get off either fix the problem or move forward to the next thing. So that'll be very helpful.
There will be links in the show notes with all those, because it's sometimes hard to write those things down while you're driving. So just go to the website. At the end of the outro of this, then I'll put all that stuff there where you go to find all these links.
All right, Michelle, I will thank you very much for coming here today. But we really covered a lot of stuff that was very dense. Like you could write a book based on that.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Thank you so much, John, for having me. I really appreciate it. And just wanted to say how much I appreciate all you do to support the physician community.
John: I love doing it. And it gives me a chance to meet people like you, which is really fascinating. And I like to see other people helping us, our colleagues who are suffering.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Agreed.
John: Yeah.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: And impact is the most important thing for me.
John: All right. With that, I'll say goodbye.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Bye, John.
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Transcription PNC Podcast Episode 388
How To Make Meaningful Changes In Your Life Immediately
- Interview with Dr. Michelle Bailey
John: I'm really happy to welcome back a guest from about five years ago. Back then, we were talking to her about her work as a senior medical director and some of the coaching she was doing. And I've been looking to get her back for a while, she's back to talk to us today and we're going to discuss mostly what she's learned and what she can teach us about career transition and physicians and so forth. Dr. Michelle Bailey, welcome back to the PNC podcast.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Hi, John, thank you so much for inviting me back. I'm so happy to be here.
John: Yeah, I've been following you over those last five or six years just to kind of see what you're doing. As far as I know, you still exist. You still have a LinkedIn profile. And I know that you're still doing coaching, physician coaching, it's always good to pick the brain of someone who has interacted with and helped physicians navigate their career, their life, whatever. That's why I really wanted to get you back here. So welcome back.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I've learned quite a few lessons over the last five years since we've had a chance to talk.
John: Yeah, and I think you've been coaching since around 2012. So you've been doing that for a while.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, I actually started coaching around self-care and balance between work and home-life before it was a thing. And it was just what I was seeing in my work at Duke with students and residents and fellows and even some faculty. And that sort of blossomed into more coaching work around career satisfaction and career transitions, particularly after I made my own transition back in 2016.
John: Yes, yes, that was a big change. To go from full-time, I think you were doing academic pediatrics at the time.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: That's right.
John: Yeah, and then you flipped into the other thing you're doing, which is the nonclinical work. Tell us just about that for a minute.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Sure, yeah, I was an academic pediatrician. I was seeing patients full-time in addition to teaching responsibilities at the medical school. And I decided to make the leap and move into a nonclinical career. I went to work as a medical director for a global contract research organization. And for those listeners who haven't heard of that, essentially the company I work for is hired by pharmaceutical or biotech companies to execute the running of their clinical trials. And so I wasn't sure if I was qualified to do that in the beginning, but they were very confident that I was and made an offer for me to join the team.
And essentially I get to leverage my medical education and experience and bring all of that into the world of pediatric clinical trials. And it's just been a wonderful career path for me, surprising in many ways. I still get to learn, which I love, and I still get to advocate for kids and to be a part of helping to bring life-saving and life-changing medicines to them.
John: Okay, we're going to talk mostly about what you've been doing with the coaching, things that maybe are new or just aha moments maybe that you've even had over these, let's say last five years. However, you did mention that issue about going to, I guess some people call it now biopharma, they use this kind of all-encompassing name, but the physicians often just feel like, well, how can I do that? I'm not a researcher. I haven't spent any time writing articles on things like that. But explain what you were kind of alluding to in terms of the fact that you were qualified for what you did then and what you're doing now.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, I can certainly say my journey and my experience mirrors a lot of the physicians that I have conversations with and ultimately end up coaching in that in our training and education, we don't really learn about options outside of direct patient care or bench research. And so that's really all I knew. And once I decided that I wanted to do something different, I had no idea what that would be.
And back during that time, there weren't a lot of podcasts like yours or conferences and other things around to kind of help educate you. But what I've learned over my eight plus years of being in this new industry is that we have transferable skills. So these things that we learn and skills we acquire as physicians, like leadership, for example, we have these skills that we bring with us to other industries and we can apply them.
For example, in my case, some of the skills that I get to use are just my general knowledge about children and the fact that they don't come to clinic visits alone, they come with their parents or they come with siblings. And so I'm looking at a study protocol for a research trial. And I see that the assessments for that study are going to keep that family on site in the clinic for like six to eight hours.
In my mind, that's going to be a difficult study to enroll for because as a parent, it means I've got to take time off from work. I've got to get my kids from school. I've got to arrange maybe childcare for the other kids or bring them with me. We got to figure out food while we're there for that period of time. So those are the insights that I can bring to a team that has never worked in a clinic and had these kinds of interactions with a family. And so it's things that are seemingly simple to us.
And I think we don't appreciate how much we know because it's just our world. It's what we do. But also just sort of the leadership that we acquire as a physician, the fact that we are really good at doing hard things, that's a part of our training. And also we're really good at figuring things out. So just because you've never seen something before, you don't know how to do something, you are motivated to figure out a potential solution. So that's another skill that we bring with us into these different roles.
And so I quickly understood how I could add value and contribute in meaningful ways to the team. And that really helped boost my confidence. And so what I talk to physicians about now is understanding their own set of transferable skills.
What are the strengths that they have? What skillset do they already have? And what gaps might they need to fill? But also just really paying attention to what it is they enjoy doing. Because usually there are things that we're really good at that don't feel like work because it comes naturally to us. And those are things that other people struggle with.
For me, what was really helpful was what I call the power of the pause is just stopping long enough to reflect on how I felt about my career at that point in time, what it was I wanted moving forward and getting really clear on that. And that included what I didn't want. So I had to get clear on that as well and then ask myself why I wanted that because that was going to be the motivation to help me push through the difficult moments as I was looking for a new career path. And I helped my clients with that power of the pause as well.
John: Nice. Well, I got to write that down, the power of the pause. I'm going to tell my listeners a secret right now. Actually, I've never discussed how I prepare for an interview before, but I want to discuss it now with you here because I'm going to ask you probably at least a few questions that the audience will be like, well, where did those come from? And so I'm just explaining to my listeners that when I'm preparing, some of my cohorts that do podcasts just wing it. They just know what they want to talk about when the guest comes on and they just do it. I'm so, I don't know what you'd call it, maybe insecure or is it just compulsive, obsessive compulsive?
I have to do a little research and so I'm looking at Michelle's website and I'm looking at Michelle's LinkedIn profile and so then I see these things out there. And so that's why I'm going to ask, for example, the next question. I think you may have already answered this question, but this is, I just want to let the audience know why I'm maybe being a little redundant, but you talk about getting clear on what's working, what's not working and what's missing from our lives.
That's kind of something a coach does, I think it helps their clients. And you're talking about the pause, is that when you're doing that getting some clarity or am I looking at something different there?
Dr. Michelle Bailey: No, I think you're absolutely right, John. So taking the time to pause is what allows you to have the space created to get clear. For many of the physicians that are looking to make a transition from clinical practice, they often are feeling very burned out, they're feeling low energy, exhausted.
And so from that space, if you're really just looking for how do I get out, your search is going to be driven largely by fear. It's like this sort of desperate energy of, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I got to get out of here, I got to do something. And instead, what I'm encouraging is to take that time to pause and give yourself a little breathing space to say, okay, I know I don't want to continue to do this indefinitely, it doesn't feel sustainable for me.
Given that, if I knew everything could work out well, what is it that I would want to do? And why do I want to do that? And taking the time to get clear on those things instead moves you into this energy of sort of positive momentum to move forward. It's a focus on where you're going rather than what you're running away from, you know? And I've seen how that makes a difference because I've had some physicians who've come to me after they've made a transition, but they didn't really think it through. They saw someone that they knew made this move into a different industry.
They thought, "Oh, they look happy, that's what I'm going to pursue." And so they do and they get an offer and they're thrilled about that. Everybody just wants to get their foot in the door, but only to find that this isn't a good fit for them based on the season of life and career that they're in and what it is they want.
For me I'm not afraid to tell my age, but I'm at a different stage of life. I'm 57. And so I have grandkids. I want to be able to travel with my wife. I want to spend time with my grandkids. I want to pick them up from school or go on field trips with them.
It was important to me that whatever I did next allowed me location independent work and also allowed me to be able to have a flexible schedule so that if I needed to go and pick up my grandson from school, I could do that without feeling stressed out about it. So you have to just get clear on what your priorities are and what your values are.
When I work with clients, I have an exercise I do with them to help them get in touch with what their core values are now. Because the person that we are when we embark upon this journey in medicine is not necessarily the same person we are now, depending on how much time has passed. Like most of us are young adults when we're starting out on this medical journey and life happens along the way. And so being clear on where you are and what's important to you and where you want to go will really help direct your path towards something that's going to be a better fit for you.
John: Boy, how long would you say the average client that you've spoken with or even people you've even just mentored, how long does it take to figure that out do you think normally? Because many of us have this sense that we don't know what our passion is. We don't know what our purpose is. We don't really know what we like and we don't like. We just barrel forward and do our job because that's what we'd spent 15 years of our lives learning and it's hard for us to stop and even come up with answers to those questions.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, it varies quite a bit. I will say the physicians that have the fastest results in terms of finding that next step career in the nonclinical world are the ones that already come with a degree of clarity. They have made the decision. There's no ambivalence as to whether or not I want to do this. It's like, I've decided I'm going to leave clinical practice. I want to pursue a nonclinical career.
I don't know exactly what, but this is what I'm thinking of because I like X, Y, and Z. And so that the more clarity you have, the more accelerated I would say your journey is in terms of the transition. But for some people who haven't really given it much thought, the questions that we go through are very deep and reflective questions and it can take a good six weeks for them to really figure out, okay, this is what I want and this is why I want it.
But then there's another step of giving yourself permission to actually go after what you want. There's a lot of guilt and other uncomfortable emotions that can arise in thinking about making the transition. I feel like I'm going to be abandoning my patients. I don't want to abandon my partners. I don't want to leave them in a lurch. My family won't understand.
I may have to change my lifestyle if the salary that I get for nonclinical position is less than what I've had as a clinician. So there are all of these variables that come into play and I do think it's really helpful when you have a coach that can help hold space for you to work through some of that because you don't want that to be the barrier that keeps you stuck for yet another year and you're miserable. Life is just too short and too precious for that.
John: Well, if I was going to engage a coach, that would kind of be the thing. That's why I would do the engagements. Like, okay, I don't like what I'm doing. I'm not satisfied. It doesn't mean I'm burned out or whatever. I'm just it's just no longer what I want to pursue. And I really can't figure out, I would engage a coach to do that. So that makes perfect sense. that's kind of a core addition to the process that you have. So can you give us like just a glimpse as like what you said, you had either like some method or some tool or something to help people tease that out. Just an example would be very helpful.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, sure. So one of the things that we do is to explore like what's important to you now so that you can figure out what are some of the non-negotiables that you will need in this next career. So for example, like I have one client that I'm working with now, and it's important to her to be near an aging parent so that she can be a support to them.
And so she is really looking for an opportunity that allows her to stay in her geographic region for work. She knows through this exploration that it's important to her to have social connections around work. So as much as some people think, oh, I would love to just work from home full time, it is not for everyone.
And so if you need that social stimulation and connection on a regular basis through work, then you may need to have an opportunity that is office-based or at least hybrid. Where certain number of days you're going into the office and then a certain number of days you're working from home. So these are the kinds of questions that I will ask a client so that they can get clear on what's really important to them. And that sort of builds the scaffolding so that they know this is the container. Like I have to have this and I have to have that. Those are my non-negotiables.
Now with that in mind, what kinds of opportunities would fit into that? Because often we're doing the opposite. We're looking for an opportunity and then seeing how we can fit into that opportunity instead of the other way around.
John: I'm such a practical person at times. I have to ask this question. So what I would do, it could be a little overwhelming. There's lots of things that I definitely do want and a lot of things that are like absolutely not. And so they develop maybe even a checklist so that when as they're looking at job descriptions or they're talking to recruiters or whatever, it's like, okay, I got to make sure that we got these five are in and these five are definitely out of this job.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yes, absolutely. And it kind of helps you create a matrix that you can work from. And even for you, like if you were thinking about doing something different, for example, I would start by saying, well, John, just write down like top of mind, the first 10 things that would be important to you in your next career, in this next opportunity.
And sometimes when people are asked that question, they're not able to write down 10 immediately. So that's not an uncommon thing. But what I would do is continue to ask yourself, it's like, okay, if I'm not so clear yet on what it is that I do want, let me start with what I don't want and write that out.
Let me get clear on that. For me, as an example, I was really clear that I did not want a job with a long commute because that's what I had in my clinical work. My commute was easily 40 to 45 minutes, an hour plus if the weather was inclement.
And so, it's like, well, I need a commute that's 15 minutes or less because I want to be able to maybe even go home for lunch. So starting there can help you gain that clarity that you need for what it is you do want. And thinking about like what would an ideal schedule look like for you? What hours would you be working? Would you be sitting at a desk or would you be doing something that's more interactive with people on a day-to-day basis? So these are the kinds of questions that you can ask. And I've developed some tools that I use with my clients to kind of help guide them through that process.
John: Excellent. I think that gives everyone a pretty good idea how that goes. And I go back probably about the time when I was speaking with you the first time on the podcast, like just have an episode with a coach about why coaching is so beneficial.
And because there's a lot of resistance to coaching. I see it all the time. And people call me or they ask for advice and it's like maybe you just need to sit down with a coach for a few weeks because I don't do coaching. And I'm not going to answer your question in a short email. But they're like very reluctant at times. But so that's a good refresher and a good look into coaching.
Now, I had on my list too, I wanted to ask you about what new revelations have you had about coaching in the last five years? Is there something new about coaching or just have things evolved in terms of where we are as physicians in the whole milieu of the healthcare system itself and different forms of employment?
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah. Let me start off by saying, I believe in the power of coaching. And so I have my own coach. I'm a coach, but still I have my thoughts and beliefs that at times can be limited. And so one of the things that's valuable in working with a coach is having someone to help you see different perspectives. I will say that I have noticed that there seems to be an increase in thinking about working with a coach. Like you, I've been in a lot of Facebook groups and other social media groups where I saw a fair amount of bashing of coaches.
John: Oh, really?
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah. And I think there's some that really feel like there are people who are out there who are presenting themselves as coaches that don't have any training, that don't have any background and are really just looking to take advantage of physician colleagues. So I'm not a proponent of that. However, there are a lot of us physicians who have gone on to do additional training in coaching.
And there are different types of coaching as you probably know, John there's executive coaching for people who are trying to get into executive level positions who want to do hospital administration or maybe go into the C-suite for an organization. There are life coaches, there are career coaches. So there are different sort of specialty areas, if you will.
And for me, career coaching was the likely choice because people started reaching out to me to ask me to help them with their own transition because I was speaking so visibly about my own journey and how I didn't have as much support as I would have liked back then and thought something was wrong with me because I wasn't happy doing what I was doing. And so I do see that more physicians are reaching out for some support, that many of the challenges that I hear when I have conversations with physicians about their career, is they're feeling a bit stuck and unmotivated. They don't know what they would do next if they were to transition.
If they decide that they do want to transition, they don't know where to start or how to sort of get their foot in the door. And it's feeling not as easy to make the transition for a lot of physicians as it was previously. And I can say that certainly there are changes within the industry that are reflective of the economic state of the region that you're living in that can make a difference.
But even at times where we've seen a downturn, where there were fewer jobs available, there's always someone somewhere that is hiring. And so one of the most powerful things that you can do to enhance your own career and raise the likelihood that you can accelerate your transition is networking. And I get a lot of eye rolls when I say that. It's kind of like role plays when we were in medicine and we were learning a new skill and they were like, okay, we're going to do a role play. And everyone's eyes would kind of glaze over because no one enjoys doing it. But it is an activity that helps you develop a skill and get better at it.
And networking is one of those things. And the way I sort of talk about it is if you're looking for an opportunity for yourself, you are one set of eyes, one set of ears. But if you are telling other people what it is you would like to do, then you get more sets of eyes, more sets of ears.
It's kind of like boots on the ground that are going out like little sentinels that are looking on your behalf. So when something comes to their attention, they can think about you and reach out to you. So you want to stay top of mind for people. And that's one of the most important reasons for networking. Plus you learn about other things that people are doing that you otherwise might not be aware of.
John: Yeah, I just have a comment on a couple of things you said just to actually emphasize those and support what you're saying. Number one, most physicians would probably be shocked to know how many hospital CEOs still get coaching. There's so many people in business that get coaching.
They just see it as part of the job because they want to be cutting edge. They want to think strategically and they get a lot from the coaching. So that's one thing I, again, that kind of just because of this resistance that physicians have like, well, I've gone to all this school.
Well, that's not the point. And then the networking that's, there's so many it's not like you're going to a meeting and then having some drinks after the meeting and a conference room and you're networking. Nobody likes that really, at least physicians don't have time for that.
But to connect with people, whether it's through LinkedIn or through word of mouth or whatever, like you said, it just magnifies what you're doing. It just makes it so much more of a reach and exposure. So, yeah, it seems like that's becoming more important since we last spoke.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Absolutely, yeah. I think, as you mentioned, CEOs and other executives, this is just a part of the job. And often they are provided with a coach at the expense of it's charged to the company. And coaches are really valuable in helping you with a strategic plan so that there's some organization to what you're doing. And you're not just like throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. Because that burns a lot of time and a coach can really help you be more efficient and more organized because you're thinking in a more strategic manner.
John: That is so true. And I love hearing that. Okay, we're going to run out of time pretty soon, actually. I had this long list of questions, but let's try and kind of focus here. What else have you got to tell us that really can be useful? I know we were talking before we got on about making changes and I was thinking, well, that could be useful not only in career transition. I don't know if we've touched on that yet, just how to implement those changes in your life or other career tips or transition tips, anything like that that you think would be helpful.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Yeah, I think there are a few skills that really lend themselves to making change. One is decision-making. I didn't give this too much thought before I started working with a coach, but then I realized I have an approach to how I make decisions.
And I'm one where I need to have all the information. I want to see it all laid out so that I can weigh all my options before I make the decision. And there's this saying, how you do anything is how you do everything. And I noticed that that wasn't just showing up with big, important decisions. It was little decisions, like what entree I wanted to eat when I went out to a restaurant at dinner.
And my wife is like, pick one. I'm asking all these questions of the server to try and weigh my options. Which am I going to enjoy more? So decision making is a skill and I think it's one that can really lend itself nicely to helping you when you want to make change in your life. I think another skill like that is, well, I call it a skill, but self-confidence.
So belief in yourself. I said earlier during our conversation that physicians can do hard things. It's just part of our training and we're really good at figuring things out. I often remind the physicians that I'm coaching that they can do hard things and that they can figure it out. And it's okay that you haven't done this exact thing before. You have what it takes to be able to do it. And so your own self-confidence plays a big factor in how successful you may or may not be in doing things in your life when you're ready to make a change.
John: Okay. No, that is also, and people, I think if they recognize that maybe they don't feel that they're portraying themselves as not confident, but if they're doing it and not realizing it, then maybe they just need to step back and say, okay, let's stop and think about what I'm doing and saying, and then let's see if I can just portray myself as I really am, which is a confident powerful person that definitely can handle this new job.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Right. And I'll tell you one way you can know if you're lacking in confidence is the action that you're taking or rather the action you're not taking. So one of the things that I do see is for a lot of physicians, they are doing what they feel is taking steps to transition, but it's honestly a lot of busy work.
That's not really putting themselves out there because they're either afraid of rejection or they're having that self-confidence issue. And so when I ask very concrete questions, like how many applications have you submitted in the last week? And they say, well, none. So being able to really look at some concrete metrics for yourself and focusing on what you have control over. So you don't have control over whether or not someone makes you an offer for a job, but you do have control over how many people you connect with to network, how many applications you're putting out there how many jobs you're exploring, like maybe reaching out to recruiters.
These are things that you have some control over and just take a look at whether or not the actions you're taking are things that will make a meaningful difference in moving your career search forward, or if it's just accumulating more information and more data, which isn't necessarily going to help you in that next step.
John: So true. Again, it's logical. But the thing is, too, if you apply to a lot of places, you're eventually going to get feedback. And then you're going to say, oh, I didn't know that was stupid of me to do that way. And you're telling me because I've now made a contact with this person, a recruiter or the HR department. And there's a lot of information you can get from that. And it doesn't happen unless you start to apply.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Right. And the caveat is applying strategically.
John: Yeah.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Right. Just applying for any job and using the exact same resume, the exact same cover letter isn't going to cut it. People are looking at why should we hire you over someone else? And so the purpose of your resume and your LinkedIn profile is to help them understand why they should hire you. Why would you be a good choice as opposed to someone else? And most of the folks within HR who are looking at the initial application to invite folks for a screening interview don't have a medical background.
They don't necessarily understand how you can translate the skills you already have into this new role. And as a result, a lot of physicians, when they look at the job description, feel like they're not qualified for these roles that they're interested in. And so that's where transferable skills come in. And I'm developing a resource that folks can use to help them identify those transferable skills and what positions would be really good, a good fit for those skills.
John: Okay. That's a good segue because this is going to be a chance to learn more about your website and contacting you. But I want to say one other thing, and I've probably forgotten it now. But anyway, I think it's, I had a guest once tell me that she, before she found her first nonclinical job, she literally had sent in a thousand resumes, but she was going to websites and putting it in. She had no contact with any company person. She never called anybody, never talked to anybody.
And so, it was just a black hole. These things were going into. And like you said, the other thing I remember was that the job descriptions are like what they would want in the perfect candidate. Here's everything we want. They never get everything they want. So don't think that that rules you out.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: And to that point, I would say there's a lot of research that's been done on gender bias. And men, when they look at a job description, if they have like a third of the qualifications will apply. Whereas women, if they don't check off all the boxes, are less likely to apply. And that may sound like a generalization, but there's a lot of literature that's been done to kind of back that up. And so I would encourage listeners to not count themselves out. And if you check all the boxes, you're probably overqualified for the position and it's not going to necessarily be a good fit for you. So look for something where you have a lot of the qualifications and you can move into that role and still have room to grow.
John: That sounds good. That's good advice. Okay. So how do we find you and tell us about your website and yeah. And maybe even if you want to do a little pitch to say, what is the kind of client you're looking for that would be ideal for you? We could give you that opportunity too. Just tell us about your website and stuff.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Sure. Folks can find my website at drmichellebailey.com. You can also sign up for a complimentary career consultation with me. I love having conversations with physicians and hearing about where you are and what you're thinking about if you're considering a transition. And I'm happy to give you just some guidance on what might help. And for that, you can sign up at callwithmichelle.com. And then you can also find me on social media.
I'm on Facebook at Michelle Bailey, and I'm on Instagram at the Dr. Michelle Bailey. And I would say in terms of an ideal client that I enjoy working with and that I think I can help the most, it's someone who has been thinking about leaving medicine for a while, but they're still ambivalent. They're not sure whether or not that's the best course of action for them. And they have no idea where to start or how to figure that out. I think having just that complimentary consultation that I spoke of earlier is an opportunity to create that space where you can pause and reflect on where you are and where you'd like to be.
And I've had conversations with a lot of physicians who haven't gone on to be clients, but had that one consultation and came back to me and said that was so helpful because I got much clearer on what it was I wanted, or I learned that I'm actually not ready to leave clinical practice. I just need a different position within clinical medicine. And so I would encourage you to just think about that. But I'm happy to sit and chat with anyone who wants to have a conversation. I enjoy helping.
John: Very good. Now, I would definitely encourage people if they've been in this mode for the last six or 12 months, thinking about it and maybe even ruminating about it and just can't get it out of their mind, but I have not taken any action, you definitely want to reach out to Michelle and see if you can get off either fix the problem or move forward to the next thing. So that'll be very helpful.
There will be links in the show notes with all those, because it's sometimes hard to write those things down while you're driving. So just go to the website. At the end of the outro of this, then I'll put all that stuff there where you go to find all these links.
All right, Michelle, I will thank you very much for coming here today. But we really covered a lot of stuff that was very dense. Like you could write a book based on that.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Thank you so much, John, for having me. I really appreciate it. And just wanted to say how much I appreciate all you do to support the physician community.
John: I love doing it. And it gives me a chance to meet people like you, which is really fascinating. And I like to see other people helping us, our colleagues who are suffering.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Agreed.
John: Yeah.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: And impact is the most important thing for me.
John: All right. With that, I'll say goodbye.
Dr. Michelle Bailey: Bye, John.
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